Petitions Committee

I move on to item 3, updates to previous petitions.

Item 3.1, P-05-1040, 'Introduce a moratorium on the approval any new large scale waste incinerators in Wales’, submitted by Amanda Jenner, with 938 signatures. I will ask Members to discuss the petition. Buffy.

Could we write to the Minister for Climate Change and get some feedback on this petition, then, to see exactly what's happening? I think that would be a way forward.

Thank you, Buffy. Joel, you wanted to come in.

Thank you, Chair. Firstly, just to agree with what Buffy said there; I think it would be a good idea to get what the current view of the Welsh Government is. But also, with regards to the submitter, Amanda Jenner—that name rings a bell, so I probably know her. So, I'll just probably declare an interest there, maybe. Well, I think I know her—so, yes.

Thank you for that, Joel. I think we have a way forward for the clerking team to take there. You are a very popular man, it seems.

Item 3.2, P-05-1041, 'A clear policy and funding for hospitals and care homes for virtual visiting during times of lockdown'. This was submitted by Kate Perry, with 187 signatures. Again, I will ask Members to discuss this petition. Luke.

Thank you, Chair. I sympathise with the petition quite a bit actually. At the start of lockdown, my grandmother was in a care home, and we were unable to visit her. I think, now that Wales is in alert level 0, I struggle to see what more the committee can do on this. It was a very important petition, but I think now most of the concerns have been addressed. So, I'd like to suggest that we do close the petition.

Thank you for that, Luke. I can see Joel wants to come in as well.

Thank you, Chair. It was just a quick thing, really. I agree with what Luke said, in the sense now, as we are in alert level 0—and I know with other ones, about the hospitality industry and everything. But I do think it might be a case where, like with this one, maybe, should this ever happen again, with the care sector—I think there definitely needs to be some lessons learned-type approach there with that. So, maybe—I don't know. Is there anything we can do just to make sure, should we ever be in a similar situation again, that these views are taken onboard, maybe?

I can see there are a few more Members coming in there, but perhaps a suggestion for the committee can be for us to write to the Minister to thank her for engagement in the petition, and ask that request—if, in future, these considerations of the petitioner can be taken forward, if they are needed to. Let's hope they're not. But I think we can do that. I see Buffy, then Luke; you wanted to come in.

I was just going to say exactly what Joel said, really. But I do think, with the care homes—some are owned privately, and some are owned by the local authority, and there's always a discrepancy there. So, I think we've got to be really careful going forward with the way this is handled, then.

Yes, I agree with that. And Luke, did you have a comment?

Yes, I think it's definitely worth writing to the Minister to seek clarification to see whether or not there is a strategy, if we were to go back into lockdown—you never know. But I think it's important to see if there is a strategy to allow for visits or see where we would go if the worst comes to the worst.

Okay. My suggestion would be to send that note for the petitioner's comments to be raised, but I think we draw a line at the actual petition process. Do Members agree with that?

Yes.

Is that clear, Clerk?

As Luke was mentioning asking about the strategy, are you thinking you need something else, rather than the information provided—that there is detailed guidance provided now around this area for homes? Or are we happy with just sharing the views and saying, 'Please consider these issues moving forward'?

I think having some sort of detailed guidance would be a good thing, rather than just say, 'Just make a note of these views', if that makes sense.

The detailed guidance does exist, and Care Forum Wales have inputted into that, and it's been reviewed. It's the tenth revision, I think. So, as things changed, they were reviewed. I just wanted to check what else are we asking for.

I think the best way forward for the committee is just to share the petitioner's views at this time, and then we can bring—. And we could mention, if there is any, obviously, a future revision in that guidance. I don't think we need to come back for a further—.

Fine. Thank you.

Members agree, I think. Thank you.

Item 3.3, P-05-1132, 'Instigate an Independent Judicial Inquiry into Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board'. This petition was submitted by Councillor Mike Powell, with 126 signatures. Can I invite members of the committee to discuss this? Joel, please.

Now, I definitely know this guy, so I do need to declare something there. I note that we were waiting for his comments, really, and we've not heard anything back from him, and knowing the guy that I know, I'm surprised we've not heard back from him. So, it might be a case where we might try to chase him again, maybe, and then if he doesn't respond, I don't know what more we could do then as a committee.

Okay. Buffy, you wanted to come in.

Yes, I also know the petitioner. He's been given opportunity to come back, and he hasn't. So, I don't think it's really our place to chase the petitioners. I think we should agree there's no clear action to be taken here and close the petition.

Okay, Buffy. Any comments, Luke—can I just check, Mared, that we have made contact twice now?

Let me just—. We have e-mailed—let's just check. We were awaiting responses earlier in March, and that's why the previous committee postponed it to this committee, and we've e-mailed twice since then.

Okay. I don't think we can keep chasing, I think we've got an opportunity. I think twice is—. Perhaps we can remind Councillor Powell that we have a duty to—since it's his petition as well. So, it's my view that we do take Buffy's view forward and close this petition. Do Members agree with that? I think they do. Thank you.

Item 3.4, P-05-1112, 'Help Welsh Communities Buy Community Assets: Implement Part 5 Chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011.' This was submitted by Daniel Evans, with 655 signatures, and I'll invite Members to speak on this petition. Buffy.

I know most local authorities now run an asset-transfer project. I know because I was part of one myself, and it does help communities to take ownership of buildings that councils no longer use or have a need for, and that brings it back into community ownership. I think it's really important for communities to have the chance to take on buildings that are left, whereas they would either be sold on or let go to rack and ruin and it's just a blot on the landscape then, isn't it? So, I think that now that more councils are buying into this asset-transfer project, we should thank the petitioner, because this is a really important petition. I think we should thank him and close the petition, because I don't know where else we can go with this now.

Thank you for that. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. I agree with what Buffy was saying there, I know that Rhondda Cynon Taf are doing the community asset transfer there as well. The only thing is, because I know with the Localism Act in England it helps communities buy or get a stake in private property, that's owned privately rather than by a local authority. Is there anything we could do to look further into that, really, because I know a lot of the buildings that I come up across that are being left to rack and ruin are privately owned? It would be good to empower the community to maybe put an active bid in for that then, really, rather than to see those buildings just deteriorate. So, I was just wondering is there anything we can do to see if the Welsh Government could look at the Localism Act, but within the private sector there.

Thank you for that. I can see Buffy wants to come back in.

My only fear with that is when a community actively buys a building, (1) where will that extra money come from from Government to buy the building? And then, once they have purchased the building, they have no support then. If you buy a building, you are on your own. If you have an asset transfer, you always have the back-up and support of the local authority or the third sector who are going to be there and hold your hand all the way through. Most community groups are made up of retired people or people that are trying to do good in their community, then, and it's a lot to take on—it's an awful lot to take on. What people don't understand is you have so many responsibilities, so I think (1) where is the money going to come from and, (2) it's a lot of responsibility so, for me, I would think the best way forward is to stick with the community asset-transfer projects run by local authorities. I really wouldn't be doing my third sector friends a favour if I was advocating selling buildings.

Thank you for that. Luke, I'll bring you in in a second, but I can see Welsh Government have published research on this. So, perhaps we could go back to the Welsh Government to see exactly what they plan to do with that research, do they agree with its recommendations and whether they will be implemented or not, and just find some more information, because I can see it's quite an emotive topic for Members. Luke, you wanted to come in, and then Joel.

Yes, thanks, Chair. That was the exact point I was going to make.

Okay, thanks, Luke. Joel.

Yes, thank you, Chair. The only thing I was going to say: I agree with Buffy in the sense of the concerns there about the financial implications and how are they going to do it and what support—and obviously I think if we did go down this route, there should be support for community groups to be allowed to go down that private route. But to me it's all just about giving them the choice as well, really, so they can say, 'Well, listen, if we can get ourselves organised as a group and we can raise this amount of money, and then this is the ongoing cost', then it gives them an opportunity to do it, then. And that's all that's there. Obviously, it is difficult, but at least you give them the opportunity to at least try.

I totally agree with you, but I think if it's going to be done, it's got to be done the right way.

Okay, well, thank you for that. Let's get this information and I'm sure we can have a long debate outside of the meeting.

Item 3.5, P-05-1140, 'Revise the guidance for Free School Meals, removing the option for delivery of food parcels'—and I do feel like Joel here, where I will say I do know the petitioner, for the record, Sarah Rees—with 205 signatures. Can I invite Members to discuss this? Any comments from Members? Apologies, Joel.

No worries. Thank you, Chair. I just note the report that they mention, because again, as we've gone back into that zero level now with the COVID restrictions, whether or not to close, to move this—. But again, it might be something for us to take on board for next time, about how free school meals are given out, really, in this sort of situation, because I know we've had a lot of debates in the Chamber recently about the stigma around free school meals, and whether or not that could be addressed here. But then I think we've also got to thank the teachers, because I know of some stories where teachers would go out and personally deliver the free school meals. So, I don't want to say I want to see this petition as a criticism of that, it's just how it was done. I know in my local authority they did the BACS transfers, and I had some concerns about that, but that seemed to be a relatively straightforward process for them. But I'm conscious not all people, as it says in the report, have a bank account. So, I just think maybe it's just lessons learned for the future, again, about how we try to reduce that stigma around free school meals.

But again I think we could, similar to one of the previous petitions, we could perhaps write to note this petition to the Government, not expecting a response from the Government but to note if this happens in the future, for the consideration to be taken forward.

My other thought on this petition—and I will bring in Luke next—is that we have other petitions, I'm right in saying, that are still open with regard to free school meals and, as you say, it's still an issue within the Senedd Chamber that we can take forward, but this particular one, perhaps, we could close. But Luke, you wanted to come in.

Thank you, Chair. I'd agree in terms of closing the petition. I think this is an issue that we debate quite regularly in the Chamber now, and I think it's incumbent on us as Members to hold the Government to account on the free school meals strategy. I personally don't think the strategy goes far enough. But I just wanted to double check one thing, am I right in thinking that the Minister for Education and Welsh Language is currently holding a review of free school meals, in particular the eligibility criteria? If that's the case, I'm wondering if it's worth us referring this petition to the education Minister as well.

I believe you are right, so we could certainly make the education Minister aware. Are Members in agreement? Yes. Thank you.

Item 3.6, P-06-1160, 'Require local Welsh exam centres to accept home-educated students for public exams'. This was submitted by Claire Woolley, with 393 signatures. I'll invite Members to speak on this. Buffy, did you want to come in on this one?

Yes, please. Chair, I think that maybe this petition has got a little bit lost through COVID. I think we need to really think hard about how children who are home schooled are treated. There are lots and lots and lots of different reasons why children are home schooled: there could be, like I said, an issue with bullying, an issue with anxiety, a bereavement in the family. There are so many reasons why children are home schooled and I hate to think of those being penalised through their exams; I really, really do. So, I think we need to look at this petition again, because I think it's too COVID centred, because this is something that's gone on for a long time, not just through the pandemic. We really need to look at this petition again.

Thank you for that, Buffy. I'm in agreement with that and I can see Members are in agreement with that. So, shall we write back to the Government? I believe they mentioned their commitment to complete their policy work around this area, so perhaps the committee can have an influence on that when we get some more information.

Yes.

Okay. So, let's write back to the Welsh Government following their consultation in 2019, and then we'll keep this open for consideration.

Item 3.7, P-06-1163, 'Extend the postgraduate STEMM bursary to all MSc students in Wales'. This was submitted by Rachel Wrathall, with 88 signatures. I will say for the record: I have had a similar discussion with the Minister for education, not around STEMM, but around teacher training and PGCE training, which is a similar issue. And I'll also put on the record: I'm a proud engineer, or former engineer. But I'd like to invite Members to discuss this important petition further. Any comments from Members? My initial—. Buffy, do you want to come in?

What were you going to say, Jack? Sorry.

Sorry. My initial thoughts on this would be again to go back to the Minister, expressing the committee's disappointment, or certainly noting the committee's disappointment within the legislative framework, and I think we should urge the Minister to look at this petition again. It's my view that the best education is sometimes where you can go to be educated and certainly, I think that's something we could look at, but perhaps, Clerk, we could specifically note about this petition, but ask in a wider sense as well. This is not just about the STEMM bursary; it's about others. But obviously, we'll make it specific. Any other comments on that? Did you want to come in, Buffy?

I was going to say more or less what you said. Yes, definitely, I agree with you. I think we should write back and just express our disappointment. Definitely.

Okay. Thank you for that. I can see Joel and Luke nodding, so we'll move on to 3.8 on the agenda, P-06-1158, 'The Welsh Government to put in place a dedicated disability Minister within the next term of Government'. And this was submitted by Alex Chung, with 315 signatures. And I'll invite Members to speak on this petition. Any thoughts from Members? Luke.

Thanks, Chair. I would obviously like to think the committee would like to welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has a disability rights taskforce and I believe as part of that, the idea of a disabilities Minister is being considered. In light of this, I'm not sure if we can do much more on this now. I think it's down to us again—it's becoming a bit of a catchphrase of mine now, but I think it's down to us as Members again now to scrutinise Welsh Government and where they go with the disability rights taskforce, and, in light of that, I think it'd be worth us thanking the petitioner for raising what is a very important issue, and closing the petition.

I would agree with that, and I can see Members nodding as well. So, thank you for that, Luke.

Item 3.9, P-06-1166, 'Provide tax free grants to people working in the arts and to provide grant funding to arts venues', and this was submitted by Natalie Bowen with 50 signatures. Again, I'll invite Members to discuss this. Joel and then Buffy.

Sorry, Chair, but I know this person. So, yes—

That's great for the Petitions Committee, Joel.

Yes. [Laughter.] I seem to know quite a lot of people, I don't know why. Just to say, really, I've noticed that we've chased for her comments and that, and they haven't come back, and also, from the report, it says it's not really sure really what we can do as a committee now, so it might be a case where we just look to close it.

Okay, thank you for that, Joel. I can see, Buffy, you wanted to come in as well. Buffy.

I know Natalie as well. I didn't realise that I did, until Joel said, but I do know her really well. Yes, I agree with everything Joel just said. Yes.

Okay, so I think we have a way forward there, Clerk. Thank you for that.

Item 3.10, P-06-1170, 'An immediate independent review of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 selection process in the WPWL', and this was submitted by Mali Beatrice Summers with 2,526 signatures. I'll invite Members to discuss this petition. Any thoughts from Members? Luke, and I'll bring Joel in next.

[Interruption.] Sorry; kicked the chair then, sorry. Thanks, Chair. I probably should declare an interest—I believe I signed the statement of opinion that went to the Senedd on this issue. It is quite disappointing, actually, that the Football Association of Wales is dragging its heels a bit here in terms of the scoring structure—the scoring matrix, sorry. As frustrated as I am, though, I find it difficult to know where else we can go with this as a committee. I think we've explored all the avenues that we can, and unfortunately I think that means, really, that we should probably close the petition and thank the petitioner for highlighting their concerns. I completely sympathise with the petition, but, again, I'm finding it difficult to know where else we can take this.

Okay. Thank you for that, Luke. I would too—. I believe most members, if not all members, of the committee perhaps signed that statement of opinion. Buffy.

I just totally agree with everything Luke said then. It's really challenging, isn't it? But I don't know where else we can go with this now, unfortunately. I wish there was something more we could do.

Okay. Well, on that point, I'm in agreement as well, and I can see nodding from Joel. I think it's important to acknowledge the frustration of the petitioner. This was an emotive topic raised, which saw cross-party consensus in the Chamber, and I'm in agreement with the petitioner. I'll say for the record, Clerk, that I am a board member of a Welsh Premier League club, obviously with a women's team too—just for the record. But I agree; I don't think there is much more, sadly, we can do as a committee, but we do share the frustration of the petitioner, certainly, and I think it's worth stating that for the record too.

Okay, moving on, the following two items are grouped together for consideration: so, 3.11, P-05-1000, 'Make it compulsory for Black and POC UK histories to be taught in the Welsh education curriculum', and that was submitted by Angharad Owen with 34,736 signatures, and 3.12, P-05-1080, 'Introduce anti-racist teaching materials to children in schools in Wales to reduce hate crimes', and this was submitted by Fatima Altaiy—and I apologise if I said your surname wrong, there—with 4,053 signatures. This has been to committee a number of times now, and I would invite Members to discuss these extremely important petitions. Any comments? Buffy, sorry.

I think the new curriculum has a good coverage now of these teachings. I think it's so important that this is addressed in schools—I really, really do. I'm not quite sure where else we can go with this petition now, though, because Welsh Government have changed the curriculum. I think we should thank the petitioner for bringing forward this really important subject, and then close this petition.

Okay, thank you, Buffy. Luke.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what Buffy said there. I think it's important that we do recognise the histories of everyone who calls Wales home. Just last committee meeting, we were talking about a potential Tiger Bay museum. I would agree with Buffy, though; I think there's not much further we can do with this petition as a committee. I think we should thank the petitioner and, of course, re-emphasise the point that this is a very important topic, and then close the petition.

Okay. Perhaps we could write to the Minister for Education for an update—

That would be good.

—on implementing the recommendations from the end—at the end— of March 2022 on the progress made to date. Buffy, do you want to come back in?

Yes. Could we let the petitioners know then what the Minister comes back to us with?

Yes, of course. I think we can—. If we take the recommendations—because I'm in agreement with you—we could—. These have been successful petitions and successful for the Petitions Committee as well. So, if we thank the petitioners for all their work on these, for the important petitions, close them, we will write as a committee to seek an update from the Minister and, of course, we can share that with the petitioners. But, in terms of the committee, I think we've probably taken it as far as we can and, of course, again, thank the petitioners for raising these extremely important issues. It's pleasing to see that we have made progress with these. I can see that Members are nodding.

Okay, well, that concludes today's public business, so I will thank all Members for joining, all the clerking team and those who we can't see behind the screens of Zoom. We will now go into private session to discuss our ways of working and our strategic approach to the remit we have as a committee. So, can I propose to Members, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for item 5 on the agenda? Are Members content with that? I can see they are. Diolch yn fawr.

And just before we close finally, the committee will next meet on 4 October, and Members and the public will see the agenda online. So, thank you. I now formally close this meeting.