Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Croeso nôl i'n sesiwn y bore yma—. Wel, mae hi dal yn fore yma, ac rŷm ni dal ar ein hymchwiliad undydd i'r celfyddydau a'r diwydiannau creadigol. Gwnaf i ofyn i'n tystion ni am ein hail sesiwn i gyflwyno eu hunain. Gwnaf i ddod at y tystion sydd ar-lein gyda ni yn gyntaf. Gwnaf i ddod yn gyntaf at Sara.

Bore da. I'm Sara Pepper. I'm the director of creative economy at Cardiff University.

Diolch, Sara. Clara.

Hello, everyone. I'm Clara Cullen. I'm the venue support manager at Music Venue Trust. We're a charity that represents grass-roots music venues in the UK, and I'm standing in today for our CEO, Mark Davyd, who can't be here today. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak. Hello.

Hi, diolch, Clara. Pauline.

Good morning. Bore da. I'm the chief executive of Ffilm Cymru Wales.

Diolch, Pauline, a Dyfrig yn yr ystafell.

Bore da. Diolch am y cyfle. Cadeirydd newydd, os caf i ddweud, TAC, sy'n cynrychioli'r sector ffilm a theledu a radio a digidol yng Nghymru.

Ffantastig. Lyfli i'ch cael chi i gyd gyda ni heddiw. Fel rwyf newydd fod yn esbonio i Dyfrig; os byddwch chi'n gallu dangos eich llaw os ydych chi eisiau dod i mewn ar unrhyw gwestiwn, achos efallai bydd pawb ddim eisiau dod i mewn ar bob cwestiwn, a bydd nifer o bethau byddwn ni'n gofyn. Fe wnawn ni symud yn syth at gwestiynau, ac fe wnawn ni fynd at Tom Giffard yn gyntaf. Tom.

Thank you, Delyth, and good morning, everybody. It's lovely to have you with us in the committee today. I wanted to start by asking about Wales's place in the world. How do you think your sector should be used to promote Wales's place in the world?

Pwy sydd eisiau—? Mae Dyfrig eisiau dod i mewn, dwi'n meddwl.

Yes. It's important that Wales is represented on film and tv as well as possible.

Un o'r pethau dwi'n credu sy'n bwysig yn fan hyn, a dyma lle mae rôl, efallai, gan y Senedd i chwarae, yw bod yna sgriwtineiddio yn digwydd, a dweud y gwir, o bwy sydd yn cael gwneud beth ac ym mha iaith. Hynny yw, rŷm ni'n gwybod, er enghraifft, fod gyda ni yng Nghymru sector Gymraeg gref iawn, iawn, ac mae marchnadoedd tramor i'r gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud yn allweddol bwysig. Mae hwnna'n bwynt, efallai, mae eisiau inni gymryd a'i ystyried, sef bod posib inni barhau er gwaethaf Brexit i allu mynd i'r marchnadoedd hynny, i gael partneriaeth i weithio. Hefyd, mae angen sgriwtineiddio beth mae Ofcom a'r BBC yn gwneud o ran, mewn gwirionedd, edrych ar ôl IP, sef yr eiddo deallusol sydd gan gynhyrchwyr yng Nghymru. Mae hwnna'n bwysig yn symud ymlaen, achos mewn gwirionedd dyna o le mae'r buddsoddiad yn dod. Os rydych chi'n gwerthu rhywbeth a'ch bod chi'n cael arian amdano fe, rŷch chi'n gallu buddsoddi yn ôl. Ac mae'r un mor bwysig ystyried—a rwy'n gwybod bod aelodau TAC yn gweld hyn yn bwysig iawn, rheini sy'n cynhyrchu yn arbennig drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg—fod Cymru a phobl Cymru yn cael eu hadlewyrchu'n deg gan gwmnïau o Gymru, os caf i ddweud, ar y lefel rhyngwladol, a bod hynny, wrth gwrs, yn digwydd drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg yn ogystal â'r Gymraeg.

Diolch, Dyfrig. Oes unrhyw un ar-lein eisiau ychwanegu neu eisiau ateb hyn? Pauline.

Yes. I mean, Wales, I think, should be seen as providers of world-class content and international collaborators that people around the world want to come and work with us, whether that's in Wales or whether we're going out and working elsewhere in the world with partners. I think that we certainly have seen, throughout our existence as a support of the sector, that we're one of the most active areas of the UK in terms of international co-production, for example. On average every year, at least 25 per cent of our slate are international co-productions and I really expect that to continue to be the case, because we have relevant stories that resonate around the world.

Diolch, Pauline. Sara neu Clara?

Thank you. Excellent points made there. I think the importance of the creative industries from Wales is taking them to the world to show the world what Wales has to offer in terms of talent, and capability, and skills, and our landscape at the very least, of what is happening here in Wales as a sector, but what we can offer for people to come to Wales to come and make work here as well. It's very important. Some of the stories that are made here are telling the story of Wales as well, are showcasing Wales as a nation, our identity as well as our industry, and that needs to travel and that's very important, as well as bringing eyes back here to come and work here to engage with what's happening here. So, I think it's important, from an industry perspective, a culture perspective, potentially a tourism perspective, and a storytelling and narrative identity and brand perspective.

Great. Clara, unless you wanted to come in, we'll go back to Tom.

I was just going to add that I think from the Music Venue Trust perspective, our engagement with the Creative Wales body, which was relatively new for us during the pandemic, really, showed to us the capabilities of that type of partnership and why it's so important to have those types of organisations and bodies and us interacting with them, both to represent grass-roots music venues in Wales, but it helps create new partnerships that didn't exist previously, and that was really important for us and something that really came out through the pandemic, actually.

Lovely. Tom.

Thanks. Obviously, the Welsh Government has an international strategy. I'm just curious to know what level of engagement, either directly, indirectly, or not at all, you've had with that international strategy. It would be good to hear whether you have or you haven't. It would be good to know the level of engagement you've had with that international strategy.

Sara, yn gyntaf.

I'll happily come in on that first. So, in the work that we do around Clwstwr, which is a £10 million innovation programme working directly with the screen and news sectors in Wales, we've worked quite closely with the Welsh Government international relations team, being very mindful of what that strategy is, and working with the resources that are in place with the offices that are located around the world. Predominantly, in our case, we've worked with the offices based in mainland Europe, but we are expanding that to the offices in Canada and the US as well. I have to say they have proved excellent counsel and expertise in enabling us to use the offices themselves, the facilities, for networking events, but they have also used their networks to engage with contacts, connections, commercial potential collaborators and support environments within those nations so that we can grow our network, so that we can really get into the parts of the sector that we might not have had connections to ourselves. So, we've had very supportive working relations with those partners. I am aware that Creative Wales are—as, obviously, Clara just said quite right there—a very new organisation, just a couple of years in existence, but I'm aware that they are going to be developing an international strategy. We do engage with them regularly to share the international activity that we're having, that we're doing and that we're engaging in. It's so important for everybody to be aware of what's happening so we don't replicate and so that we can add value. So, there's a conversation with them as well in this space, and other partners, like for example, Pauline at Ffilm Cymru Wales and other support organisations so that we can try and enable the best for Wales and the companies we're working for and not replicate.

Iawn. Mae Dyfrig eisiau dod i mewn, dwi'n meddwl.

Ie, jest i ategu at hynny i gyd gan ddweud bod TAC ac aelodau TAC, ar hyd y blynyddoedd, drwy gymorth Llywodraeth Cymru a chymorth gan ddarlledwyr, wedi bod yn ymweld gyda marchnadoedd a gwyliau ffilm ledled y byd, a dweud y gwir. Wrth gwrs, dŷn ni eisiau hynny i barhau, a dyna pam bod sgwrs gyda Cymru Greadigol, wrth symud ymlaen, a dweud y gwir, yn mynd i fod yn bwysig iawn, a dwi'n falch iawn o glywed fe fydd yna wrth gwrs strategaeth ryngwladol. Heb unrhyw amheuaeth, mae hi'n ffordd bwysig ymlaen inni, a bod Brexit, er enghraifft, yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd yn rhwydd. Dyna un peth arall. Ond rwy'n siŵr fe wnawn ni drafod hynny nes ymlaen.

Yn sicr, byddwn ni yn dod at Brexit—yn sicr. Oedd unrhyw un eisiau ychwanegu rhywbeth at hynny cyn inni fynd yn ôl at Tom? Pauline.

Yes. I mean, I would say that we had really quite extensive engagement with the Minister at the time and her officials in terms of the formulation of that strategy. They really listened to which territories around the world were already important, and we expected to continue to be important, including Europe as a very significant partner, and to looking at what networks were really important for the talent that we're working with; so, Cine-Regio, for example, which is a network of 49 European film funds that are very engaged in working with Wales. So, that was a very positive relationship and I think all of the officers were very accessible, very available, so from time to time if any particular producers want to go and they have even very particular meetings and particular projects that they want to look at potential collaborators on the ground, those officers are always available for them to talk to and to help them access those territories, which is really helpful. I do think it will be important—because we've had this kind of enforced lull in international activity with COVID—that Creative Wales's strategy really brings to the forefront how we support businesses in their forward partnerships, the productions that they go on to do, the kind of trade presence that they have, the trade missions, their attendance, to develop new relationships and new territories, and that will require financial support as well and it needs to be quite flexible, so I'm really looking forward to those conversations with Creative Wales. They've been very open and collaborative in all their work to date.

Tom, oedd yna unrhyw beth oeddech chi eisiau dod nôl arno?

Can I just follow up? From the three answers we had there, I think it was only Pauline that mentioned a kind of role in formulating that strategy, so I'm interested to know from Sara or Dyfrig—I think Sara mentioned about the kind of work within the strategy and we're mindful of what the strategy was, and Dyfrig talked about visiting markets and film festivals—but to what extent are you being consulted, if at all, on the formulation of that strategy, and how do you know whether what you're doing is successful? Are there targets, are there metrics that the Welsh Government use?

Sara, a wedyn mi wnaf i ddod at Dyfrig. Sara?

So, we weren't involved directly in the development of the strategy. I think the timing of perhaps when Clwstwr came online meant that that strategy was already in place, and therefore, for us, it was a case of being mindful of what that was, alongside other international strategies in play in different partner institutions and so on and being responsive to them.

In terms of metrics for success, sorry, Tom, can I just clarify, was your question about metrics for success on Welsh Government activity or on our activity relating to Welsh Government activity?

Well, you obviously mentioned that you're mindful of the Welsh Government's sort of international strategy, so how do you know that you're meeting those criteria? Are Welsh Government kind of—? How do Welsh Government monitor that, if at all?

How do Welsh Government monitor what we're doing?

Yes.

Well, I suppose through the relationship that we have with Creative Wales and us feeding back to them, and also colleagues in the international relations team. I mean, it feels—I think a lot of that work has been happening for a while, so for us, it's about slotting in and adding value to what's already in train, as well as being open and receptive to new opportunities, because whilst there is a strategy, I suppose we also have our operating strategy, so we have to be mindful that there might be some territories that are outside of that that would be advantageous for us to move into. So, I suppose it's being aware of that environment and adding value and maximising it, and then also being open to other opportunities that exist.

And it's important to say at this moment: I think we haven't talked about this in terms of the opening question—Wales to the world, and thinking about the international strategy—is thinking about digital. Because actually, that's a whole territory—if you want to refer to it as that—of its own that has come rapidly into play in the last two years in a greater way than we've ever seen before. And so as much as we need to be mindful of real territories and enabling activity within those, digital is one mechanism for enabling us to do that safely, coherently, and actually in a really sort of well-thought-through way.

One thing that we've seen a real advantage of in the last two years of lockdown—and I recently shared this with the international relations team; I was talking to the head of that department at Welsh Government and was saying that we've made really firm relationships with international partners over the last two years. Rather than getting on a plane and immediately going to see people when there was no relationship built, we've given the time and the resource to have online communications, develop firm footings of relationships, develop a strategic imperative, and now if we go and visit them next year, if that's safe to do so, and appropriate to do so, we're in a much better position. So, I think the digital and the technology and the result of lockdown has also potentially encouraged us all to think slightly differently about how we're doing this work, and will enable it to enact differently in the future, in my opinion.

Diolch, Sara. Bydd rhaid i ni symud ymlaen mewn munud, ond dwi eisiau dod nôl at Dyfrig, achos roedd Tom wedi gofyn yn benodol i Dyfrig hefyd am hwnna.

Wel, rŷn ni wedi bod yn rhan answyddogol, fel petai; neu anffurfiol, dylwn i ddweud—dim answyddogol—anffurfiol o ffurfio'r strategaeth. Rŷn ni'n ymwybodol bod hynna'n digwydd, ond mae yna newid, wrth gwrs, wedi bod yn y gadeiryddiaeth a hefyd gyda ni yn TAC o ran pwy sydd yn rheoli o ddydd i ddydd. Felly, allaf i ddim yn rhoi'r manylon llawn i chi o faint o gyfarfodydd. O ran mesur llwyddiant, mae'n anodd, a dwi'n derbyn hynna. Pe bai'n bosib dod lan â ffordd o beth byddech chi'n ystyried yw mesur llwyddiant, dwi'n siŵr y byddem ni'n fodlon cydweithio ar hynny. Dwi ddim yn gwybod os ydych chi'n edrych ar nifer y projectau neu eisiau edrych ar faint o arian sy'n dod mewn, neu hyd yn oed ar yr impact, mewn gwirionedd, wrth symud ymlaen, achos os ŷch chi'n llwyddo i gael un peth dros y lein, fel petai, yn rhyngwladol, mae'n aml yn arwain at bethau eraill yn anuniongyrchol. Felly, mae yn anodd ei fesur e, ond dwi'n derbyn bod angen ei fesur e ar yr un pryd.

Ie, bydd nifer o'r meysydd yna yn bethau y byddwn ni fel pwyllgor yn awyddus iawn i fod yn edrych arnyn nhw dros y misoedd a blynyddoedd nesaf. Felly, dwi'n siwr y byddwn ni'n gallu cydweithio ar hynny.

Mae'n flin gen i, mae'n rhaid i ni symud ymlaen, oni bai, Tom, roedd rhywbeth byr roeddech chi eisiau dod nôl gyda fe. Na, rydych chi'n iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud at Hefin David.

Wel, soniodd Dyfrig am hyn, ond, yn fwy penodol, sut y gellir cynyddu darpariaeth o Gymraeg a'r defnydd ohoni yn eich sectorau chi?

Dyfrig, ydych chi eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?

Wel, mae TAC yn gweithredu yn hollol ddwyieithog ac, wrth gwrs, rŷn ni'n hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg ym mhob ffordd bosib, a dweud y gwir. O fewn y sector, dwi'n credu ei fod e'n bwysig iawn, iawn pan fyddwn ni'n hyfforddi, a dweud y gwir, ac yn derbyn pobl newydd i mewn, eu bod nhw'n ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd y Gymraeg o fewn y sector. Hynny yw, os ŷch chi'n penderfynu dod i weithio yn y maes creadigol yng Nghymru, mae e'n ddwyieithog. Felly, os oes gyda chi'r ddwy iaith, gorau oll. Mae angen hyrwyddo hynny, dwi'n derbyn 100 y cant. Mae yna fwy i'w wneud. Dwi ddim yn swil o ddweud hynny o gwbl, ond dwi'n credu ei fod e'n mynd tuag at—gyda help, wrth gwrs, y Llywodraeth yn hynny o beth—wneud y synau iawn. Mae'r Gymraeg yn bwysicach nag erioed ac yn cael mwy o gyfartaledd, byddwn i'n dweud.

Diolch. Oedd unrhyw un ar-lein eisiau ateb cwestiwn Hefin am hynny?

Yes, Sara.

Ac wedyn Pauline. Sara yn gyntaf

It's just a quick point. I think Dyfrig's point is an excellent one—that we need to raise awareness of the potential for working bilingually, and the importance of us recruiting a fully bilingual workforce for the creative sector. I think our work engages in encouraging businesses to undertake innovation activity and developing new products, services and experiences to get to the market to grow the creative sector. I think we need to do more. We do a fair bit of work in this space, working with partners like S4C and other colleagues to encourage those products, services and experiences to be through the Welsh medium, not just for consumption in Wales but further afield, and we've seen some excellent examples of that in other minority language nations where they've done that to great effect. So, I think we all need to do our part to encourage the use of Welsh language in all parts of the creative workforce in all ways that the creative workforce are working, whether it's in commissions, in productions, in innovation activity, in taking the work internationally, and so on. We must put that at the forefront of our messaging.

Diolch am hynna, Sara. Pauline, ydych chi eisiau dod mewn? Pauline, ac wedyn fe wnaf i ddod at Clara.

I'd agree with everything that Sara's just said there. Certainly, at Ffilm Cymru we do provide all of our services bilingually, whether we're working in a training context or whether we're working at production and development level, in funding, et cetera. I think it's really important, and Government has a role to play in this as well, that we really promote the successes as well when we have Welsh language successes. For example, right now we have a feature film called Gwledd/The Feast. It's sold all over the world, and it's just been released this week in the US. It's getting fantastic reviews, it has a Welsh producer, Welsh writer, Welsh director—all of the talent is Welsh in it, and it's really great to get behind that. That film was backed actually by Welsh Government's office in New York for screening over there, which I think is important, going back to the point about using your international offices as well, and getting that awareness of being able to work in both languages right out there for all collaborators to be aware of.

Diolch am hynna. Clara.

I think, from a Music Venue Trust perspective and a grass-roots music venue perspective, a lot of our venues in Wales really do see themselves as cultural incubators, and they're stages and rooms where artists can get their first performances and start building their fan bases, and things like that. And so, the role of venues in helping to cultivate and strengthen the Welsh music scene, and bands that are coming out from those towns and cities, I think, is really important for how that plays into supporting and strengthening the Welsh language as well, because there are bands and artists that perform, and want to perform, exclusively in Welsh. Things like the Welsh Music Prize, as well—I think the winners were announced this morning—and how it intersects with the grass-roots scene is really important, because everything starts at that level and then it grows, and momentum builds behind it.

Diolch, Clara. Nôl at Hefin.

Diolch. A gaf i ofyn beth ddylai'r pwyllgor flaenoriaethu ar gyfer y pum mlynedd nesaf, a beth am flaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cymru yn y dyfodol?

So, cwestiynau pwysig a chwestiynau mawr. Mae Dyfrig wedi cymryd ei fwgwd bant, so fe wnaf i fynd at Dyfrig yn gyntaf.

O'n safbwynt ni yn TAC, rŷm ni'n ymwybodol iawn o eisiau cadw staff a datblygu staff, a denu, wrth gwrs, bobl newydd. Felly, mae'r sgiliau sydd yng Nghymru yn enfawr, ac mae'n rhaid i ni gyfaddef hynny. Ac rŷch chi'n clywed hynna, wrth gwrs, o'r dystiolaeth sydd wedi ei rhoi am lwyddiannau ffilmiau ac awduron. Ond mae yna broblem nawr ac mae yna broblem wrth symud ymlaen o ran bod yna nifer fawr o weithwyr llawrydd wedi penderfynu gadael oherwydd ansefydlogrwydd, a'r ansefydlogrwydd yn cael ei achosi, wrth gwrs, yn bennaf gan COVID. Mae'n wir i ddweud hefyd fod S4C yn dal i ddisgwyl clywed am y setliad ariannol. Rwy'n gwybod bod hwnna'n fod i ddod yn go glou nawr, ond mae hwnna wedi creu ansefydlogrwydd hefyd, a hefyd y ffordd mae'r BBC, wrth gwrs, yn yr un sefyllfa, wedi bod. Rwy'n gobeithio bydd hynna o help pan fydd y setliad ariannol yna wedi cael ei gyhoeddi.

Felly, hyfforddiant, hyfforddiant, hyfforddiant ddywedaf i i ddechrau, ac mae hynna'n cynnwys prentisiaethau, mae e'n cynnwys rhoi cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc i ddod i mewn i'r diwydiant. Mae e'n ddiwydiant nawr sy'n gofyn am aml sgiliau, ond, dewch i ni fod yn onest, mae yna brinder enfawr ar hyn o bryd ac, mae'n amlwg felly, yn mynd ymlaen, ym maes camera, sain, goleuo, y technegau yna i gyd, a hefyd golygu, a swyddi hefyd sy'n ymwneud â rheoli cynyrchiadau, a hefyd, ddywedwn i, mae yna bethau fel ymchwil a chynhyrchu. Mae hwnna'n wir ar draws yr holl sector creadigol, nid dim ond teledu a ffilm. Mae e hefyd yn ddigidol, ac mae hwnna'n rhywbeth, wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid i ni ystyried wrth symud ymlaen.

So, dyna ble dwi'n teimlo ddylai'r flaenoriaeth fod nawr ac, wrth gwrs, mae hwnna'n mynd i orfod bod yn datblygu'r sgiliau wedyn ar gyfer y cyfnod nesaf. Mae'r gefnogaeth—yn hytrach na mod i'n mynd â gormod o amser; rŷch chi'n gwybod am hynny—sy'n cael ei rhoi nawr, y restart schemes, byddai'n grêt pe bai'r rheini'n gallu cael eu hymestyn. So, dyna'r prif bethau, ddywedwn i.

Diolch am hynna, Dyfrig. Rwy'n ymwybodol bod hwn yn gwestiwn enfawr a rili, rili bwysig. Rydyn ni'n eithaf prin o amser, felly, os gallaf ofyn, os oes rhywun eisiau ychwanegu pethau, i bawb fod mor gryno ag maen nhw'n gallu bodm ar faes mor fawr ac mor bwysig. Fe wnawn ni ddod at Pauline yn gyntaf, ac wedyn Clara, ac wedyn Sara. Mae pawb eisiau. Ocê, Pauline.

I appreciate it's an enormous question. To top line, then, our priorities for you in terms of a suggestion or recommendation would be skills, the green agenda and further cultural recovery funds, specifically around cinemas. So, just to very briefly tap into that, from a skills perspective in the creative industries for screen, we've got huge demand—unprecedented demand—across all of the different jobs that you can imagine behind the camera, and a lot of these involve transferrable skills. So, whether it's looking at construction, painting and decorating, administration, finance, driving, catering, all of these jobs that we have right the way across our economy are in significant demand in the screen sector. So, we're very interested in things like short conversion courses that can help people transfer across sectors into where there are jobs, and they are well paid, high-quality jobs in a growth sector. And we do need to put proper funding into this and to really accelerate the skills strategy around creative industries. So, that would be an absolute top priority for us.

From a green sector point of view, I'm working very closely with Sara, both at Clwstwr and with the new media.cymru bid, which Sara will add into. And we have the green strand as our particular focus, which is looking at new products and services that can enable the sector to have green choices in the way that they work, looking particularly at things like transport, waste disposal, and energy for our sector. So, how do we make those choices easier for people working in the sector?

And from a cultural recovery fund point of view, just to really say, cinemas have had an incredibly tough time. The cultural recovery funds that have been available have been vital to actually enabling them to continue to exist, but they continue to have a tough time. We know that the mandatory COVID passes have recently come into play, we've seen significant downturn in cinema admissions off the back of that, and I think, actually, that's probably not so much to do with the fact that the pass is there, but how it's been introduced. There's a lack of information and understanding about who it applies to and how, and marketing aspects. And I'm fully expecting that venues will need further financial support as a result.

Thank you, Pauline. That may well be something that we come back to later on in the session. Forgive me for keeping on asking for brief answers, but it's because time is really against us. Sara, if I could ask for as top-line an answer as possible, please.

Absolutely. It's a huge area, but I think the important considerations for this committee and for the Government are about supporting recovery and then building resilience post COVID, and creating the conditions for businesses, for what was business as usual, whatever the future of that looks like. And then, looking at some absolute cross-cutting themes that are going to be essential going forward, some of which have been mentioned—digital and technology, skills, Brexit, future jobs and talent pipeline, particularly with a thought around freelancers, and net-zero requirements and opportunity. And then, certainly from my perspective, a big consideration of the role that innovation and research and development can play in that to support the growth and development of the sector in the future.

Thank you, Sara. And finally, Clara.

I think, for music venues, the big one is owning their own venues. Venue operators need to own their own venues in order to create long-term resilience and sustainability. If they were to do that, they could then improve things like ventilation. At the moment, they can't take that long-term mindset because, essentially, they're improving a venue for a private landlord. So, things like ownership, moving into benevolent forms of ownership, community share offers. I know that the Le Public Space in Newport was one of the first venues, not only in Wales but in the entire UK, to take that model and that made them a lot more resilient during the pandemic.

And then, secondly, I think, for venues and funding generally, grass-roots music venues were able to access funding in Wales, really for the first time, and that kind of opened the cultural envelope for them and it made a huge difference. So, I think continuing that access to funding, continuing to recognise grass-roots music venues as culturally relevant by Welsh Government and the culture committee and Creative Wales is incredibly important. So, I'd like to see that going forward as well.

Diolch, Clara. Diolch am hynna. Mae'n flin gen i, bydd yn rhaid inni symud ymlaen, ond os oes unrhyw beth ychwanegol mae unrhyw un eisiau ei roi mewn ysgrifen i ni fel pwyllgor, byddwn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am hynny. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Heledd Fychan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch ichi i gyd. I just wanted to start by picking up on Pauline's point about the cultural recovery fund and perhaps just a quick question to start off with in terms of whether all the panel agrees that there should be a third cultural recovery fund.

So, Clara is nodding her head, certainly. Does anyone disagree?

No. That's helpful, thank you. I said it would be a brief 'yes' or 'no' there. If I may, you've emphasised to us, as did the previous panel, in terms of skills and the challenges both pre COVID as well as being exacerbated by COVID, with people leaving the sectors, and so on, because of challenges. What do you think are the barriers, or how can we best support developing skills now so that we are able to upskill people or train people to join this incredibly important sector? What would you like to see being done now to address that gap in terms of skills?

Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf? Dyfrig.

Wel, un o'r pethau byddwn i'n croesawu eu gweld byddai ymestyn cyfleoedd i brentisiaid. Hynny yw, nid dim ond pobl sydd wedi penderfynu mynd i wneud gradd neu rywbeth felly, ond o ran prentisiaid a chael pobl mewn o ran sgiliau ymarferol fel yna—ac rydyn ni wedi clywed pobl eraill yn sôn am y rheini; byddai hynny'n beth mawr i'w wneud—ac fel maen nhw'n cydweithio â beth yw'r elfen fentora.

Wedyn, o ran hyfforddiant, a dyna beth rydyn ni'n sôn amdano fan hyn wrth ein bod ni'n rhoi cyfle i gael sgil arall i bobl, mae TAC yn gwneud llawer o hyn gyda chymorth S4C yn barod, sef ein bod ni'n cynnal cyrsiau byr. Mae lot ohonyn nhw wedi bod ar-lein. Mae yna dros 500 o bobl wedi cymryd rhan y llynedd, er enghraifft, gyda ni. Rŷn ni wedi bod yn cynnig y rheini am ddim i bobl lawrydd, a wedyn mae hwnna'n arwain pobl i ddod atom ni wedyn gyda'r sgiliau cywir.

Felly, prentisiaid, byddwn i'n dweud, cyrsiau byr, a pheidio â meddwl ei fod e'n gorfod bod yn gwrs sydd yn para llawer iawn o amser. Mae mentora hefyd yn mynd i fod yn bwysig, o safbwynt fe ddylai cwmnïau gael eu mentora ar sut mae delio â phrentisiaid, achos dwi'n teimlo ambell waith nad yw cwmnïau efallai yn gwybod yn iawn sut mae rhoi'r cyfleoedd gorau i brentisiaid a'u datblygu nhw felly ar gyfer gwaith yn y sector.

Oes unrhyw un eisiau ychwanegu? Pauline.

I'd like to see Creative Wales working in partnership with their skills colleagues in Government to really accelerate the skills strategy, from which the funding priorities will flow. I think it's really important because of the scale of the challenge. As I touched on before, we are talking about skills that are not siloed to the creative sector but are applicable more widely, so we need to be sighted to what are all the levers within Government available to respond to the skills needs. I would really urge Government to be looking at what is an inclusive skills strategy within that.

I would point to one of our own programmes, Foot in the Door, as an example that looks particularly at socioeconomic exclusion. We work in partnership with housing associations, job centres, grass-roots organisations, to facilitate people into the industry and apply the skills they have. So, what is already out there that can be scaled and replicated and built upon? I think that's really important. And, to add to the previous point around apprenticeships, I think in the creative industries it's particularly important that we look at shared apprenticeships, because it's very difficult on project-to-project level business to make this sort of standard apprenticeship programme work for the creative industries, whereas shared apprenticeships really opens up opportunities. At the moment, this is being done on quite a small scale, albeit very successfully, by SkillsCymru, and it would be fantastic to see that scaled up.

Clara.

From a grass-roots perspective, one thing I am quite concerned about is succession—and it might be similar in other creative fields as well—where, in a grass-roots situation, you might join a venue at 20 and then you become the general manager and then you leave at 60, 70, when you retire, and so the venue is built around, really, one person and it becomes sort of attached to one person. But, obviously, that means longer term it's actually not that resilient. So, I think programmes that get either maybe apprenticeships or just people working in venues and using it as a pipeline is really important.

Music Venue Trust had a programme pre-pandemic called Fightback: Grassroots Promoter, which is trying to get young women into promoting at grass-roots level, because hopefully that would kickstart their interest and they'd want to continue that and it would help with that issue of longer term resilience and succession. But I think this really is a core concern of mine, and I think it needs to be addressed in order to make a very resilient sector overall.

Diolch, Clara. Sara.

I think excellent points made by colleagues, and I'd absolutely concur with all of them. I think one thing to add is about requesting Welsh Government to really think about a long-term strategy for skills. I feel like skills has been an issue for this sector for quite a long time—quite long enough now, actually. This is a sector that is growing, has been on a growth trajectory, and, despite the blip of the last 18 months, is also showing some real roots and shoots and opportunities for the future. So, I think that we have to really think about a longer-term strategy that is adequately funded to support that potential growth trajectory. Because either what we can do is set a strategy that supports what is now and what we could be doing in the next year or 18 months, or we could look at the potential for the innovation, the technology, the digitally enabled innovation, that's going to be coming down the line and is coming down the line very rapidly, and we could create a strategy that supports and enables that.

And my final point then is that, to do that, there has to also be a real joining up with other departments in Government. We need to be talking to the education department. We need to be thinking about what are the 10-year-olds learning and doing now that will enable them to be the workforce of the future. So, it's a very big joining up piece of work, but lots of people have been pushing and lobbying in this space for a long time. We need to see action now. Action is vital.

Nôl at Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch am y negeseuon clir iawn yna i ni fel pwyllgor. Mi fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol bod Llywodraeth Cymru, y Dirprwy Weinidog, wedi ymrwymo y bydd yna strategaeth ddiwylliant newydd yn ystod tymor y Senedd hwn. Beth fyddech chi'n hoffi ei weld yn y strategaeth yna yn benodol o ran y creadigrwydd? Dŷch chi wedi sôn am sgiliau; yn amlwg mae hynny yn gorfod bod yn un rhan. Beth arall hoffech chi weld pwyslais arno mewn strategaeth o'r fath?

Ocê. Sara yn gyntaf.

I'm going to jump straight in there and fly the flag for innovation. That must be a really key part of what that strategy is going forward. I'm not hearing enough talk about innovation and research and development and growing new businesses, new opportunities, and getting them to a point of them being commercially sustainable, or at least adding value in all the different ways that we need to do so, or that the cultural sector does so well around health and well-being, around education, around identity, around language and culture. But innovation has to drive all of that. It doesn't matter where an organisation or an individual working in the creative sector is doing their work, whether it's on a subsidised project or company through to a very commercial part of the sector; we're looking at the full span of the creative and cultural industries here and the wider creative economy. So, I think innovation for me has to be up there at the heart of this, as well as—I've talked a lot; it's very much linked—digital and technology. We have to absolutely have—. The two have to be sewn in together.

Diolch, Sara. Okay, Clara.

I think, from my perspective, I would like the words 'grassroots music venue' to be included in policies. It sounds obvious, but sometimes, with these types of policies, people sort of dance around what they mean, and, actually, just using the words 'grassroots music venues'—if you want to protect grassroots music venues, use the words 'grassroots music venues'. So, I think that is a really important thing, just recognising that venues now are seen as cultural entities rather than just commercial entities. We are the same as theatres and cinemas and other arts spaces in the creative economy. So, recognising that the envelope for that has been widened and we're included in it.

Diolch, Clara. Dyfrig.

A deall felly'r cydbwysedd pwysig yna rhwng gwaith a hamdden, sydd wrth gwrs yn bwydo mewn i ddiwylliant yn anuniongyrchol; os oes mwy o amser hamdden gyda chi, y mwy ŷch chi'n ymwneud â diwylliant. Ac mae'r diwylliant hefyd yn golygu eich bod chi mewn gwirionedd yn gallu ymgymryd ar draws y sectorau i gyd wedyn.

Ond, ar hyn o bryd, dwi'n credu mai un o'r pethau sy'n wynebu ni, wrth ein bod ni'n trio dod mas o COVID, yw gweithio oriau hirach am lai o arian, ac felly dyw'r cydbwysedd a'r ochr llesiant ddim yn cael y sylw ddylai fe. Felly, dwi'n falch bod y cwestiwn yn cael ei ofyn, os caf i ddweud, achos mae yn bwysig iawn, iawn yn y ffordd rŷn ni'n meddwl am bethau hefyd wrth symud ymlaen.

Ie, pwysig. Diolch, Dyfrig. A Pauline.

I'd like them to think quite carefully about where the intersections are with other partners, particularly the arts council—because we tend to, even now, get this kind of false dichotomy between what's economy and what's culture, what's arts, what's culture; well, it's a continuum, and we are in a creative business and both need to be reflected—and to really think through what that means.

We need to think about the overall ecosystem. As Sara said earlier, freelancers are absolutely vital to this sector, and we need to think about the sort of stickiness as to how they're supported in the lulls as well as when we're thriving, to look at businesses, the sustainability of businesses within that, and how we can support that.

And I think also, more broadly, as I said before, the green agenda, the inclusive agenda, and also well-being, which is something that is being talked about an awful lot, and that's long overdue: what are the kind of practices within the cultural sector that we need to look at again and think about redesigning so that people can thrive individually, as well as looking at our businesses?

Diolch am hynna. Heledd, bydd yn rhaid i ni symud ymlaen yn eithaf buan. Oedd unrhyw beth arall roeddech chi eisiau ei ofyn?

Yr unig beth arall roeddwn i eisiau ei ofyn oedd o ran y cyfleodd ledled Cymru. Dwi'n ymwybodol o'r cynllun y mae Sara wedi bod yn rhan ohono fo, o ran Caerdydd yn benodol. Ond, o ran y cyfleoedd ledled Cymru, oes yna bethau pellach sydd angen cael eu gwneud i sicrhau bod cyfleoedd cyfartal i bawb, lle bynnag y bo nhw, o ran y diwydiant hwn?

Fe wnawn ni fynd at Sara am hwnna, felly. Sori, fe wnawn ni fynd at Sara, ac wedyn fe wnaf i fynd at Pauline.

I think the simple answer, Heledd, is, absolutely, 'yes'. I think you've hit on a really important point. We do need to consider the nation as a whole and in terms of the needs of the sector as a whole. It's an interesting way that the sector connects together in terms of the agglomeration in the south-east, but also then the connections to the rest of Wales. It's very important for us to—. One point I forgot to make in the previous answer was around data, and knowing and mapping and seeing what's happening, and being very cognisant and mindful of that, so we can fully take those opportunities where there are hotspots, where there are opportunities, where there are gaps.

I think, referring to some of Pauline's points as well, this is about also working with partners to deliver in those spaces. Some of the work schemes that are coming online—for example, Clwstwr is one that you referred to, Heledd; media.cymru is similar—are place-based initiatives. So, we have to mark out places. What we've tried to do in those schemes is work with colleagues at Welsh Government and others to enable opportunities. We've funded a number of projects across Wales through Clwstwr, and we'll continue to do that in media.cymru, where there's a sensible narrative, where there's an opportunity, where there's a hotspot, where there's the potential for growth and development.

But I think you raise an important point, Heledd; I think it's important that we all undertake work to be more mindful of where those hotspots and those opportunities are, and then put in additional—. There needs to be—. As many interventions as we have already had, we need two, three, more Clwstwr-type initiatives; we just need more. That means regions and locations need to be well-networked, well-connected, to be able to bid in to these sorts of schemes, to create opportunities that are fitting and appropriate for that location and what's happening within it.

Pauline, os gallaf i ofyn am ateb cymharol fyr, plis, achos bydd yn rhaid inni symud ymlaen at Alun Davies mewn munud, ond roeddech chi eisiau dweud rhywbeth ar hyn.

I was just going to say that cinemas, universities, they're also great catalysts for the sector, and they are often partners, delivering across Wales. So, thinking about how those cultural spaces are place-making spaces that can connect, offer training opportunities, et cetera, new entrants. We are seeing production right the way across the sector, and right the way across Wales, so I think it is a success story from that point of view. But from—[Interruption.] Sorry, my dog's barking in the background.

I'd just also say that we should continue to look at what we've gained during COVID from digital delivery. We've certainly seen, from the training perspective, that we've doubled the reach right the way across Wales. And that's not only about geographic reach, it's also people who are living with a disability, for example, who have been able to access training much more readily in many cases. So, I think continuing some hybrid offers in that space is quite important.

Diolch, Pauline. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Alun Davies.

Thank you. I want to return to the spectre at the feast, in terms of COVID. Could I start by—? I think the only member of the panel for whom this is probably relevant is Clara, in terms of COVID passes. Do any of your venues, or the venues you represent, have any experience of using the COVID pass? How has its introduction affected the sector?

Sure. So, I was on the phone to a venue yesterday, and they said to me that the introduction of the COVID pass had meant that they had to spend £120 more on security every week, just to ensure that the entry requirements are being adhered to. So, that's a direct financial increase. We're trying to track the actual impact in terms of ticket sales and on-the-door impact. What we're seeing at the moment is there has been a slight decline in on-the-door impact, but I think at the moment, really, it's the financial burdens, or the increase in the financial costs around implementing the pass, that I think venues are struggling with in comparison to other types of hospitality industry spaces. So, yes, there has been an impact for sure.

I would have anticipated that many of your venues would seek to ensure ID is used before entry in any case, wouldn't they?

They were already doing that as well, but it's basically to ensure that the measures are being effectively implemented. What we're seeing on the ground anecdotally is that there is—. I guess, enforcement is an issue. There is some backlash in terms of the punters being slightly aggressive in the enforcement or not quite understanding the messaging, so that's an additional burden as well, which I think a lot of our venues are slightly concerned about, because obviously, they're on the front line of having to deal with those interactions.

I think Pauline may want to come in on this as well.

I think it's interesting that you didn't immediately spot that cinemas are also included in the COVID passes as a mandatory measure. We're equally seeing a negative impact. I think a lot of it is about the way it has been brought in, just to disaggregate it—the fact that it's there at all. Because we have been short of marketing assets for cinemas to get out there and be able to communicate with their audiences about what's actually required of them. Even now, we don't have, on the Welsh Government's website, the clarity that we, yesterday, managed to get in terms of details from officials that it only applies to cinemas that are designed for that primary purpose and not, for example, community venues, village halls, miners' halls, et cetera, which are also used for screening. There's a lot of confusion out there about that. A lot of those other sites think that it does apply to that and they are even now advertising that that's what you need to do—have a COVID pass—when it's not actually the case in terms of official advice.

We are seeing a number of economic repercussions. So, you've got staff needed for longer and more staff required in order to do the checks in advance. Cinema is renowned for walk-ups, rather than pre-booking that you might see in theatre spaces, for example. And also, on average in the UK, people don't go to the cinema every week in the same way that you'd go shopping every week. If you'd go shopping every week and you had to have a COVID pass, you would get it, but if you only go to the cinema two or three times a year, which is the average UK level, you're not necessarily going to go out there and think, 'Oh, I must get my pass'. So, it's not habitual in the same way. So, I think from a behavioural point of view, that's a barrier for bringing it in. And we are seeing venues—it's still early days, obviously—reporting dips of between 43 and 51 per cent from previous admissions, pre COVID passes, already. And we have got comparisons from the UK Cinema Association, where they can do direct comparisons elsewhere in the UK, because they're chains. We're continuing to collect that data and we'll share it with officials.

I would be interested in that data, because the evidence you've given does chime with evidence we've received earlier this morning, but it is all anecdotal. And I do find it a bit odd—I'll be using my COVID pass this evening to go and watch Cardiff City struggle again, and I find it somewhat curious that the arts community is struggling with this, whereas other sectors, such as the sports sector, don't seem to have had the same issue at all.

I think, with respect, that's an issue of numbers and also of marketing. So, if you go to a big game and there are thousands of people walking up, you're going to have a level of awareness that's quite different than if you're going to a cinema that might only have 20 or 30 people in their audience, sometimes fewer. And we also have an age demographic where people are not necessarily online—they're not necessarily tracking what the latest official guidance is. The advice and the guidance—you've got to spend a lot of time digging around trying to find it and members of the public are not going to be doing that.

Well, I don't find that very convincing evidence, I have to say. But we'll leave it at that, because other members of the public seem perfectly able to understand it. I used COVID passes in Scotland on my summer holidays without any difficulty, so I'm not convinced by the argument that the demographic that goes to cinemas is a demographic that's not actively online. I don't find that very convincing.

We're happy to share the evidence.

Yes, I'm sure you are, and I'd be happy for the committee to receive that.

In terms of moving on with COVID, all members of the panel were very clear earlier that additional funding from Welsh Government would be useful, and clearly that's fair enough. But I'm interested to understand what you are doing as organisations to support and to sustain either your members or people you represent through this period. What advice are you providing, what support are you providing to these different organisations?

Ydych chi eisiau dechrau, Dyfrig?

O safbwynt ein haelodau ni, beth ŷn ni wedi'i wneud yw cyfathrebu ffyrdd diogel o weithio. Rŷn ni hefyd wedi cyfathrebu lle mae yna gymorth ariannol ar gael a beth ddylid mynd ato. A hefyd, wrth gwrs, sut mae, o safbwynt yr ochr busnes, yr awdurdodau lleol yn gallu cynorthwyo gyda hynny. Felly, rhannu gwybodaeth, cynnal cymaint o gyrsiau a hyfforddiant ag sy'n bosib, a sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o sut mae gweithio'n ddiogel.

Dim fy mod i eisiau codi sgwarnog arall, ond un o'r problemau mawr fydd yn ein hwynebu ni fydd pris tanwydd wrth symud ymlaen, o ystyried gweithio'n ddiogel. Er enghraifft, mae ein haelodau ni yn teithio ar eu pennau eu hunain ar hyn o bryd—dyw hwnna ddim yn dda i'r amgylchedd; mae hwnna'n broblem arall. Ond, yn y tymor byr, byr, gyda phris tanwydd yr hyn yw e, mae e'n mynd i achosi pob math o broblemau, a dweud y gwir, i'r sector wrth symud ymlaen. Felly, mae hwnna'n bwynt. Ond, beth bynnag, rhannu gwybodaeth yw'r peth pwysicach rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud, a'i gwneud hi drwy gyrsiau hyfforddi ar-lein, fel dwi eisoes wedi sôn—mae dros 33 o'r rheini wedi cael eu cynnal—a wedyn, wrth gwrs, rhannu arferion da.

Oedd unrhyw un eisiau ychwanegu at hynny? Mae Sara wedi rhoi ei llaw i fyny.

Thank you, Chair. I think, in a similar way to Dyfrig, through a number of different schemes and projects we run, like Creative Cardiff and Clwstwr, we've been communicating information around resource and support opportunities; I think that's important to do ongoing.

Also we have funding to distribute, and we've not gone a million miles from what our key strategic aims and ambitions are in that activity, but we've had to think and evolve slightly those competitions, opportunities, commissions for when funding can be distributed to support the sector in the most supportive way. And I've mentioned several times in the session this morning about this encouragement for innovation. It might seem like an unusual thing when everyone's going through a pandemic, but when certain business drops away, then that potentially gives rise to time capability, skill development, and the opportunity for innovating to move through that or to take up opportunities that were there that weren't there previously because business as usual was taking up all the time. So, we've been supporting that narrative as well as funding opportunities to enable innovation in that space with technology, yes, but innovating in a whole range of different ways.

I think we've also been through that work trying to encourage a greater understanding with audiences. Because we've talked a lot about this sector today, but you can't have this conversation without considering audiences, because, essentially, they are the other half of the picture here. And audiences have changed and evolved as opportunities and challenges have changed and evolved in the last 18 months. So, I think us talking to the sector about that is really, really important, because it's great to say, 'Oh, put everything online, go digital.' It's really not that straightforward; I think we're all very clear about that. There have been some real winners and there have been lots of mediocre to not-going-so-well in that whole process, and that presents risks to businesses. And audiences have changed, and there are opportunities. We need to understand those, so we can fully grasp what that presents to individuals, to businesses and to Wales. And, likewise, we've talked a lot about skills—we've been working a lot to champion support, develop thinking around skills development, which is essential right now, in the way we've discussed this morning.

Diolch, Sara. We are into our final six minutes, so we would need to move on relatively soon. But, Clara and Pauline, you wanted to add something. If I could ask for as brief an answer as possible, please.

I think for the Music Venue Trust, it actually became almost the making of us. We went from a team of two full-time employees to over a team of 15, which included our regional and national co-ordinators—and some of you may know Sam, who's our Welsh co-ordinator. We did a thing called Save Our Venues, which was a public-facing campaign. That raised over £5 million that was distributed to venues in emergency crisis grants. Things like Revive Live, which was our campaign over the summer, which was about getting audiences back into small venues—that was a partnership with the National Lottery to underwrite the shows costs, which meant that venues could open up, it meant that artists got paid and they could go back on the road and get audiences back into venues. And I think, like my fellow panellists said, information sharing really became one of the most important things we did. As a central organisation like MVT we were able to distribute to our members all the information as it changed, and attend all the different Government meetings and committee meetings and make sure that the voice of grass-roots music venues was represented in those meetings. I think, actually, that had a very impactful impact on just making sure that we were recognised in this crisis.

Pauline, and then we'll be moving on to the final section in a moment. Pauline.

We've documented quite a lot of what we've done previously, so I can just share that in writing with the committee. Essentially, we pivoted all of our funding in the first year, so there was more emphasis on development when production couldn't happen. We spent a lot of time working with colleagues across the UK, and particularly the BFI, in quite an extensive joined-up stakeholder set of working groups that then advised on policy development, within devolved Government context and UK Government context. In particular, that led to the £500 million film and tv restart scheme, which effectively backs up the fact that insurance isn't available for COVID-related loss. And until that was in place, you couldn't get production going again. So, that was the most important thing, really, that we did to get production going. And we worked very closely with Creative Wales in the design of the cultural recovery fund as it relates to cinemas and freelances in particular.

If you could write to us with any further information you have on that, that would be fantastic, please. We have three minutes left of our scheduled time, but there is one final section that we wanted to raise. Alun Davies is going to raise Brexit.

Yes, just very quickly. Our first panel this morning had nothing good to say about Brexit, and I was just wondering if you were going to confirm that, or whether you had any light to shine on this darkness.

Wel, efallai fy mod i'n cytuno gyda'r hyn rŷch chi eisoes wedi'i glywed. Mae e'n creu pob math o broblemau; mae'n syml o safbwynt y sector y mae TAC yn ei gynrychioli—hynny yw, cael talent i fynd allan ac i ddod nôl a chyfnewid. Pan ŷch chi'n mynd mas i weithio neu ffilmio, mae yna bob math o rwystrau yn codi yn y fan honno a phob math o ansicrwydd sy'n arwain at gostau ychwanegol. Ac mae hwnna hefyd yn golygu, pan fyddwch chi'n dod i werthu a hyd yn oed i fasnachu, gan fod yna bob math o trade deals yn cael eu gwneud, ychydig iawn, iawn o ystyriaeth sy'n cael ei wneud i sut mae hwnna'n effeithio ar gyfnewid y deunydd a'r cynnwys ac yn y blaen rŷn ni'n ei gynhyrchu. Felly, dyna'r problemau. Dyw e ddim wedi bod yn beth da. Mae'n rhaid inni obeithio bod pethau'n mynd i ddod yn gallach a'n bod ni'n gallu mynd ymlaen gyda'n gilydd ar hwn.

Diolch, Dyfrig. Oedd unrhyw un ar-lein eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth ar hyn? Mae gyda ni funud a hanner ar ôl, ond byddwn ni'n gallu rhedeg drosodd ychydig funudau os oes unrhyw un eisiau ychwanegu rhywbeth. Sara.

I was just going to say, Sara, before you start—

I'm sure I can do this in under a minute. We did a piece of research in 2019 that looked at the potential impacts of Brexit, and they showed very high levels of concern for business. I think all of those concerns were well justified, and unfortunately we've seen that and some. So, we're seeing significant ongoing impacts around a decline in business, higher costs, issues around access to talent and mobility being a big issue across the creative spectrum, supply chain issues, reputational damage and access to funding.

Sara, would it be possible for you to furnish the committee with that research from 2019, but also any updates you have on that—any commentaries that you could lay alongside those predictions?

Of course. Will do.

We'd be grateful. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Clara neu Pauline, oeddech chi eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth?

The only thing I would add is that I think what we're going to see with the additional costs and the barriers is that the stage at which artists tour Europe and vice versa will become when they're slightly more established, rather than at a grass-roots level, which we saw pre Brexit. So, often, you'd get DIY bands and grass-roots bands touring Europe quite easily. I think what you'll probably end up seeing is that the decision to tour Europe and from European artists coming here will start at a later stage in the artist's development, because it will cost more and therefore you need to be more established to do it.

And last word to you, Pauline.

I think in some ways it's still actually too early to tell from a production point of view because of just how long it takes, lead-in time, and so I just put a little bit of a caveat on that, that we're still tracking that. I think that there's a bigger issue coming down the line around whether or not content from the UK will continue to be known as European works, and that is a very live debate within Europe right now. If we aren't continued on that basis, that will have very significant implications, because it will affect content being able to be included in all the quotas that apply to the streamers, et cetera. So, that's something, I think, that the committee should keep an eye on.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae'n flin gen i ein bod ni'n gorfod dod â'r sesiwn yma i ben, ond diolch yn fawr iawn i chi i gyd fel tystion am eich tystiolaeth y bore yma. Diolch am fod yn amyneddgar gyda'r ffaith bod amser yn ein herbyn hefyd. Rydym ni wir yn gwerthfawrogi hynna. Bydd transcript yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio ynglŷn â beth dŷch chi wedi ei ddweud heddiw, ac mae nifer ohonoch chi wedi sôn am y ffaith y byddwch chi'n ysgrifennu atom ni gyda mwy o wybodaeth, a byddwn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am hynny. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am fod gyda ni'r bore yma. Diolch.

Aelodau, byddwn ni'n symud yn syth ymlaen at eitem 4, sef papurau i'w nodi. Mae nifer o bapurau gennym ni i'w nodi. Eitem 4.1, llythyr gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad atom ni ynglŷn â Thribiwnlys y Gymraeg: adroddiad blynyddol. Eitem 4.2, llythyr gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg atom ni ynglŷn â chymorth ar gyfer y Gymraeg a gwaith craffu blynyddol. Eitem 4.3, gwybodaeth ychwanegol gan Undeb Rygbi Cymru yn dilyn yr ymchwiliad undydd ar chwaraeon. Eitem 4.4, gwybodaeth ychwanegol gan Chwaraeon Cymru yn dilyn yr un ymchwiliad undydd. Nesaf, llythyr gan y Prif Weinidog at Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad ynghylch y cytundeb cysylltiadau rhyngwladol: uwchgynhadledd y Cyngor Prydeinig-Gwyddelig yng Nghymru. Eitem 4.6, llythyr ar y cyd atom ni ynghylch materion sy'n effeithio ar leoliadau'r celfyddydau. Eitem 4.7, llythyr—

Can I say a word on that? Many of the issues raised in that correspondence have been raised with us by witnesses this morning, and there does seem to be a quite significant crossover of issues, particularly in terms of recovery from COVID and dealing with continuing restrictions. I don't think it would be fair simply to note that letter and not consider whether we as a committee wish to take any action, having received that correspondence.

Diolch, Alun. Mae Heledd eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn hefyd. Heledd.

Byddwn i'n cefnogi Alun ar hynny. Yn sicr, dwi'n meddwl mai'r neges a gawson ni'n glir o ran y cultural recovery fund a'r angen am drydedd un—a dwi'n meddwl mai ymateb y Dirprwy Weinidog—. Byddwn i yn hoffi gweld gweithredu ar sail y llythyr hwn i ofyn am fwy o eglurder o ran y cyllid ac hefyd mwy o eglurder o ran y cais a wnaeth Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru am arian ychwanegol a beth fydd hwnnw'n mynd tuag at hefyd, ac os mai hwn fydd y trydydd cultural recovery fund mewn gwirionedd.

Ydy pawb yn hapus, felly, inni ysgrifennu at y Llywodraeth ynghylch nid yn unig y llythyr yma, ond hefyd y dystiolaeth dŷn ni wedi ei chlywed y bore yma?

Yes, but I think we need to go further than simply asking for money, because I think that's the easiest thing in the world to do. It would be more surprising if witnesses didn't come here and say, 'We could do with some more money.' So, I think we've got to be—I don't necessarily disagree, by the way, with a third cultural recovery fund, but I think that would be an inadequate response in itself. I think we need to look at how these venues are being supported. We need to look at how the restrictions are impacting upon them and how the context in which they are working can be supported and sustained. I think it's a much broader and wider issue than simply saying, 'Let's throw more money at the issue.'

Ydy pawb yn hapus, felly, inni ddanfon llythyr yn gofyn yn fwy eang am gefnogaeth, gan gynnwys ariannu? Pawb yn hapus? Ocê, gwnawn ni wneud hynny, felly.

Y ddau bapur olaf i'w nodi—a diolch i Aelodau am hwnna—yw eitem 4.7, llythyr gennym ni at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ddigidol, Diwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon ynglŷn â dyfodol y cyfryngau a darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yng Nghymru.

Ac yn olaf, eitem 4.8, gwybodaeth ychwanegol gan y Gymdeithas Amgueddfeydd yn dilyn yr ymchwiliad undydd ynghylch treftadaeth, amgueddfeydd ac archifau. Ar wahân i beth, yn amlwg, dŷn ni wedi dweud y byddwn ni'n ei wneud am un o'r papurau, ydy pawb yn hapus i nodi'r llythyrau a'r papurau eraill hynny? Mae Alun eisiau dod mewn, a wedyn Heledd.

I've got 4.9 here, a letter from the Scottish and Welsh Governments to the Secretary of State on Ofcom—[Interruption.]—

O, reit, sori. Ocê. A gaf i gael teitl llawn hwnna, plis? Dŷn ni'n nodi llythyr ychwanegol, sef eitem 4.9, llythyr o Lywodraethau'r Alban a Chymru at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ynghylch cadeirydd Ofcom, felly byddwn ni'n nodi hwnna hefyd. Ac mae Alun eisiau dod mewn ar hwnna, wedyn mi wnaf i ddod at Heledd.

Can I say, the last few weeks, the last month or so, in fact, have been amongst the most disappointing, and I think, frankly, disgraceful actions I've seen from any Government at any time? Trying to fix the appointment of an independent regulator for a friend of the Prime Minister is appalling. It goes far, far beyond anything I've experienced in politics before, and I think we need to think hard—. I agree with what the Governments are saying, but I think if we are to have any sense of having an open, democratic, pluralistic, free media, then you can't have a Government that bullies the regulator, and appoints its friends and political donors in the way that's happening at the moment. I think it's a very, very difficult situation for us, and I think as a Senedd, rather than perhaps just as a committee, we probably need to do something to support and to sustain the arguments that have been made by the Governments in this case.

Cyn i fi ddod atoch chi, Heledd, byddwn ni'n gallu ystyried fel pwyllgor os ydyn ni eisiau ysgrifennu hefyd ynghylch y mater yma. A fyddai pawb mewn egwyddor—? Yn amlwg, byddai drafft yn gallu cael ei ddrafftio, ond ydy pawb mewn egwyddor yn hapus i ni ystyried gwneud rhywbeth fel yna? Tom? Mi wnaf i ddod atoch chi, Heledd; dwi'n gwybod roeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn ar rywbeth gwahanol. Tom.

I'd be quite keen to see the response from the Secretary of State before we kind of waded in; I think it probably would be for the best. And secondly, if we were to go down that road, as I say, I would like to see the draft before it was sent.

Ocê, Tom. Cyn i fi ddod atoch chi, Hefin; Heledd, ife ar hyn oeddech chi eisiau siarad, neu ar un o'r papurau eraill?

Ar un o'r llythyrau eraill.

Ocê.

Ond dwi yn cytuno efo Alun, a'ch cynnig chi, Gadeirydd, y dylen ni fod yn gweithredu rŵan, nid aros am ymateb. Dwi'n anghytuno efo Tom ar hynny.

Ocê. Hefin.

Were you asking me the question?

Yes. I thought you had your hand up to come in, but I may have imagined that, sorry.

I'd just say, if we're looking for a majority position on the committee, I'd agree with Heledd's point and Alun's point. I take Tom's point, and I probably wouldn't have placed it in the committee quite as politically as Alun did, but it is a key issue and I think we can address it more quickly, sooner rather than later.

Okay. Thank you all for that. Obviously, we will get Carolyn's view as well after this session; the majority at the moment seem to be in favour of writing sooner rather than later. Taking on board your points, Tom, that your perspective may not be—that you'd like to maybe have more nuance in this, we will work carefully on the drafting to make sure that everyone is as happy as possible with the draft. Is that all right, Tom?

Yes. If the committee wants to write the letter, that's fine, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless you get the language correct and I'd quite like to see that then, before that goes out.

Okay, no problem. Is everyone happy with that?

Ocê. Diolch, Tom. Roedd Heledd eisiau dod mewn ar bapur arall.

Ie, jest ar bapur 4.3 gan Undeb Rygbi Cymru—nodi yn eu hymateb nhw eu bod nhw ddim wedi bod yn hapus iawn efo'r cwestiynu o ran Amazon Prime. Dwi yn meddwl y byddai fo werth i ni bwysleisio ein bod ni'n mynd ymhellach na rhai o'r cwestiynau sydd yn codi, ac efallai fod e'n werth, pan ydyn ni'n gwahodd pobl i ddod i'r pwyllgor, eu hatgoffa nhw os oes rhywbeth perthnasol yn y newyddion hefyd, bod hi'n bosib y byddwn ni'n codi'r materion hynny gan fod y cyfle gennym ni yn y pwyllgor diwylliant i wneud.

Ocê, iawn. Dwi wedi nodi hynna. Diolch, Heledd.

Iawn, dwi ddim yn gweld unrhyw un arall yn codi llaw ynglŷn â'r papurau.

Ydy pawb yn hapus, felly, i symud at sesiwn breifat? Dwi'n cymryd—ocê. So, rwy'n cynnig, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42, i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy'r Aelodau yn fodlon derbyn y cynnig hynny? Ie, ocê—gwnawn ni symud ymlaen at sesiwn breifat, felly.