Local Government and Housing Committee

Item 2, then, is papers to note. We have a number of papers before us today: paper 3 is a letter from the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales in relation to complaints handled by Welsh local authorities; paper 4 is a paper from an anonymous leaseholder of an apartment in relation to building safety; paper 5 is the response from Welsh Government to the committee's report on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2022-23; paper 6 is a letter from Gareth Wilson, a leaseholder, to Councillor Lynda Thorne, Cabinet member for housing and communities at Cardiff Council, in relation to building safety; and paper 7 is a letter from the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee in relation to work on the decarbonisation of housing. Are Members content to note the papers? Okay. First of all—. Sorry, Carolyn.

Just under the response to the draft budget, when we discussed capital programmes, capital borrowing, it was raised that the budget for maintenance of highways was cut and I think that the discussion through the Welsh Local Government Association was that, perhaps going forward, there could be a capital programme of supported borrowing to deal with the infrastructure and maintenance of highways, which—. That detail has not really been picked up and carried forward in that response. It's talking about the whole capital programmes altogether, including—. There's so much happening at the moment, such as twenty-first century schools, low-carbon housing, building new nursery facilities—all these fall under capital programme—but the fact that there's no funding for the maintenance of highways under local government has just been missed altogether now. So, I'm hoping that the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee have picked that up in their response, because I don't want it to disappear altogether. It used to come under the environment committee. So, I just want to note that, okay, because I'd like to maybe follow it up through the other committee or pick it up in the future, maybe.

Yes. Well, if committee is content, Carolyn, we could liaise with the other committee and make that point and suggest to them that it is a matter that they may wish to turn their attention to, if committee is content with that.

I'm concerned that we maintain the principle that we don't tell local government how to spend its money, and it's a matter for local government to determine its own budget; it's not a matter for this place. But you know—

It was raised.

I know. Because it's raised, doesn't mean we need to respond to it.

It was raised here.

But, you know, it's a matter for local government to determine its priorities, not a matter for this place to determine those priorities for local government.

Would you nonetheless be content for us to—

Yes, as long as we don't breach the principle of—.

Okay. Okay. Committee content with that? Yes. Oh, Joel, did you—?

It was just a quick question with regards to the public services ombudsman's report. Obviously, it says there, in the briefing paper, that they believe that some local authorities continue to under-report their complaints. Now, obviously, that's a bit concerning, really, and I was just wondering whether or not we could do a bit more digging on that, just to see how accurate a statement that is, for one, and how serious that should be, really.

Okay. Well, we could certainly return to the ombudsman and ask for some background information that led to that part of the report, Joel, if you're content with that, and the rest of the committee is. Yes. Okay. Sorry, Mabon, I'd seen Alun earlier. Alun.

It was on the ombudsman's report. This is the latest in a series of reports we've had from Nick Bennett, all of which have illuminated some really important matters in the delivery of services. Nick is retiring as the ombudsman next week. I think it'd be a good thing if the committee could write to him to thank him for his service over the last seven years.

Yes. No, absolutely. I'm sure committee would be very supportive of doing that, Alun. Yes, I see agreement on that. Yes, absolutely. Mabon.

Rydym ni wedi derbyn tipyn o dystiolaeth dros y misoedd rŵan ynghylch diogelwch adeiladau, yn benodol o amgylch cladin, a meddwl os cawn ni, ar y record, syniad clir o beth rydym ni'n mynd i'w wneud fel pwyllgor ynghylch hyn, fel dwi'n dweud, ar gyfer y record, fel bod pobl yn gwybod beth ydy'r gwaith dŷn ni'n ei wneud. Ac mi wnes i sôn yn y cyfarfod blaenorol am y syniad o gael grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen, hwyrach, oherwydd ei fod o'n rhywbeth brys. A dwi'n gwybod ein bod ni yn edrych ar flaenraglen waith maes o law. Tybed ydy hwnna'n rhywbeth y medrwn ni ei ystyried yn fanno, gan ein bod ni'n bellach dim ond yn cyfarfod bob pythefnos yn hytrach na bob wythnos. Hwyrach bod yna gyfle yn mynd i fod yno inni wneud rhywbeth ynghylch diogelwch adeiladau.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon. Well, as you say, we'll be discussing the forward work programme later, so I'm very happy to discuss it at that time, if that's okay, Mabon. Yes. Okay. Are Members content to note the papers, subject to those comments and actions? Okay, that's great. Thank you very much.

Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the following items: items 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 of this meeting. Is committee content to do so? I see that committee is. Thank you very much. We will then move to private session.

Let me welcome everyone back to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee, and we have reached item 8 on our agenda today, which is a further and, in fact, last evidence session with regard to the committee's inquiry into second homes. I'm very pleased to welcome Jeremy Miles, Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to committee today, and also Bethan Webb, who is deputy director for Welsh language in Welsh Government, and we're also joined remotely by Amelia John, deputy director, housing policy, and Iddon Edwards, head of language planning in the Welsh Government. So, thank you all very much, Minister and officials, for joining committee today.

Perhaps I might begin, Minister, with a couple of general questions, and, firstly, how Welsh Government is ensuring the Welsh language is considered as part of all policy development on second homes. Obviously, we know there's a range of policy areas engaged here, including housing tax, tourism and, indeed, planning. So, how is that being addressed across the piece, Minister, rather than as a stand-alone issue?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Jest i ddweud, os caf i, ar y cychwyn, fod llwyddo o ran y maes hwn yn golygu bod rhaid cydweithio ym mhob rhan o'r Llywodraeth, yn cynnwys y meysydd rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw yn eich cwestiwn chi. Felly, mae'n faes trawsbynciol ac mae gan bob Gweinidog gyfrifoldeb i sicrhau eu bod nhw, wrth ymgymryd â'r gwaith yma, yn sicrhau ein bod ni'n cynyddu defnydd o'r iaith a chynyddu nifer y siaradwyr. Felly, mae'r maes yma o bolisi, gyda'r Gymraeg yn y canol, os hoffwch chi, wrth galon y maes polisi.

Rwy'n cadeirio grŵp rhyngbleidiol hefyd, sy'n cyfarfod o bryd i'w gilydd i ddiweddaru'r pleidiau eraill am yr hyn rŷn ni'n ei wneud, ac mae'r Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd a'r Gweinidog cyllid hefyd yn rhan o hwnnw, felly'n dangos bod ein gwaith ni fel Gweinidogion yn cydblethu.

Ac mae is-adran y Gymraeg—mae swyddogion yn rhan o grŵp trawsadrannol sy'n trafod nifer o'r materion yma sydd yn gysylltiedig â'i gilydd. Felly, mae pob rhan o'r maes yma yn golygu ein bod ni fel Gweinidogion a swyddogion yn gweithio ar y cyd.

Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Could I move on to the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan'? Given the scale of the challenge, and we know these are difficult issues that have been around for some time, but are definitely worsening, is that 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' the right approach to deal with the scale of the challenge, and are the ambitions within it appropriate?

Yes, Chair, I think it is. If you look at the Brooks report, 'Datblygu polisïau newydd yng Nghymru' and also the Gwynedd report, you see very clearly in those the impact of large numbers of second homes in particular on our Welsh-speaking communities. Obviously, the Minister for Climate Change has announced a three-pronged approach in relation to the areas that she is principally responsible for, and I think what the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' does is provide a range of additional interventions that can complement the three-pronged approach that Julie James announced at the end of last year, and it's a sort of toolkit, if you like. Some of them are around—. I think, conceptually—if I may, Chair, for a second—what we have in the three-pronged approach that the Minister for Climate Change has announced is a set of interventions around, principally, housing, and what the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' does is link that with a range of other interventions that are particular to Welsh language communities, but extend beyond housing. So, that's the kind of framing for it, if you like, in the way we've developed it together. And, obviously, the pilot will provide an opportunity to look not just at some of the interventions that Julie has in mind, but how they relate, perhaps, to some of the interventions in this plan as well.

Okay. I think Alun Davies wanted to come in at this point. Alun.

Diolch yn fawr iti, John. Gweinidog, roeddwn i jest eisiau deall beth ydy dy amcanion di ar gyfer y cynllun cymunedol yma—dwi'n darllen yn Saesneg, so y 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan'. So, mae hwn yn gynllun tai ar gyfer cymunedau Cymraeg, ydy e? So, beth ydy eich uchelgais chi? Beth ydy eich amcanion chi ar gyfer, nid jest y peilot, ond y cynllun ei hun?

Wel, mae rhyw saith neu wyth ymyrraeth sy'n mynd i fod—

Dwi'n deall hynny, ond beth ydy eich amcanion?

Ie, ie. Os edrychwch chi ar yr ymyrraeth, mae'n dangos yr ystod o bethau sydd angen eu gwneud, felly mae'r sialens a'r heriau o ran tai—rŷn ni'n deall y rheini; mae gennym ni gynllun yn fanna—ond dyw hynny ddim yn rhoi'r darlun cyflawn i ni o'r hyn sydd yn bwysig yn ein cymunedau Cymraeg ni. Mae ffactorau eraill ar waith yn fanna o ran adfywiad economaidd, ac mae enghreifftiau gyda ni o sut mae hynny wedi gweithio mewn rhannau o Gymru. Mae gyda ni amryw o gynigion o ran cyrff cydweithredol ac ati, ond hefyd yr elfen ddiwylliannol, efallai, sy'n mynd ynghyd â hyn. Mae ymyraethau tai ynddo fe hefyd, wrth gwrs, ond pethau o ran esbonio i bobl sydd yn symud efallai i gymunedau beth yw'r cyd-destun diwylliannol. Mae gwaith arloesol yn digwydd eisoes ym mhenrhyn Llŷn. Mae gwaith eisoes yn digwydd o ran pecynnau croeso ac ati i bobl sy'n symud i mewn. Felly, mae dimensiwn diwylliannol ehangach i hynny hefyd. Felly, mae hynny'n rhoi'r cyd-destun penodol i gymunedau Cymraeg sydd yn mynd law yn llaw â'r gwaith mae Julie a Rebecca Evans wedi bod yn ei wneud hefyd.

Ie, ie, ond beth ydy eich amcanion chi?

Sicrhau, pan fydd pobl yn symud i mewn i ardal, eu bod nhw'n cael ymwybyddiaeth o'r cyd-destun ehangach a hefyd rhoi cyfleoedd economaidd i bobl aros yn eu cymunedau a chreu gofodau lle mae'r Gymraeg yn gallu ffynnu.

So, sut ydych chi'n gwybod eich bod chi wedi llwyddo?

Wel, bod mwy o'r pethau hyn yn digwydd.

Ocê. So, does dim amcanion na thargedau penodol gennych chi.

Wel, os ŷch chi'n gofyn am beth yw targed effaith llysgenhadon diwylliannol, ble rŷn ni heddiw, pan rŷn ni'n ymgynghori, buaswn i'n dadlau ei bod hi'n rhy gynnar i ni edrych ar y termau hynny.

Ond, surely, yr amser i osod targed yw pan dŷch chi'n dechrau ar broses polisi, so dŷch chi'n gwybod beth dŷch chi'n mynd i'w wneud. So, dŷch chi'n sôn am y ffordd dŷch chi'n mynd i amharu—. A dwi'n cytuno â beth dŷch chi'n bwriadu ei wneud, gyda llaw, ond beth sy'n fy mecso i yw ein bod ni'n mynd i ymyrryd yn y gymuned yn y ffordd dŷch chi wedi'i disgrifio—mae hynny'n fine—ond dŷch chi ddim yn gwybod sut dŷch chi'n mynd i lwyddo.

Wel, mae lot o ffyrdd o werthuso pethau, nid jest gosod targed. Felly, ar hyn o bryd, mewn rhan arall o'r portffolio, er enghraifft, rŷn ni'n ailwerthuso’r cynllun grantiau Cymraeg, ac rŷn ni'n edrych ar y rheini gyda llygaid ffres i edrych ydyn nhw'n cyfateb i strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050'. Bydd gwaith gwerthuso'n digwydd yn sgil y cynllun hwn hefyd pan fyddwn ni'n datgan y cynllun ar ôl yr ymgynghoriad. A hefyd, bydd gwaith y comisiwn yn rhoi cyd-destun i hynny hefyd. Ond dwi'n derbyn y pwynt bod angen gwerthuso a ydyn ni wedi llwyddo ai peidio. Dwi ddim, fy hun, yn gweld bod targedau yn y maes penodol hwn yn ddefnyddiol iawn.

Pam?

Wel, sut ŷch chi'n mynd i esbonio i bobl faint o—? Gallech chi ddweud, er enghraifft, beth yw cynnydd defnydd, o ran arolwg blynyddol. Gallech chi ddefnyddio hynny, ac mae hynny'n ffordd ddigon teilwng o fesur hynny. Yr hyn sy'n heriol yw'r cysylltiad rhwng un ymyrraeth a'r canlyniad hwnnw. Felly, dyna'r elfen sydd yn heriol, byddwn i'n awgrymu.

Okay. One further question from me, Minister, before we move on to other committee members, and that concerns the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and how it has affected the development of that Welsh language communities housing plan, because obviously the future generations Act is a very significant piece of legislation, and really should be applied across the board of Welsh Government activity.

Well, Chair, I think it reflects a number of the well-being goals in the legislation, about cohesive communities, global responsibility, about vibrant Welsh language communities. So, in that sense, I think it's, in terms of its objectives, very consistent. But there are also lessons that we have learned from the ways of working. So, this does involve working on a very cross-Government basis, it does involve working in a very joined-up way with our partners, but perhaps the most fundamental way, I think, in which it echoes the requirements of the Act is that this is about ensuring the sustainability of the language into future generations. So, in that sense, I think it's very, very aligned.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. And now Alun Davies.

Dwi'n awyddus i ddeall sut ydych chi'n datblygu polisi. Mae Julie, yn fwy na chi, wedi ymateb i bapur Simon Brooks, ond sut ydych chi yn datblygu fframwaith polisi yn genedlaethol a fydd yn cynnwys Blaenau Gwent a Phen Llŷn, ond yn gallu cael yr hyblygrwydd i ymateb i'r sefyllfa wahanol yn Aberdaron ac Abertyleri?

Wel, byddwn i'n dweud eich bod chi'n dechrau o'r ochr arall. Beth sydd gyda ni fan hyn yw ystod o ymyraethau sy'n caniatáu i chi ddechrau o'r lleol, a dweud y gwir, ac wedyn edrych ar lefel rhanbarthol ac wedyn elfen genedlaethol. Felly, yr holl beth sydd wrth wraidd y syniad yma yw ein bod ni'n adlewyrchu anghenion penodol y cymunedau sydd yn cael eu heffeithio'n fwyaf, ac mae'r elfen hynny o ymbweru, os hoffech chi, yn rhan o'r weledigaeth. Ac wedyn rŷch chi'n cynnig amryw ystod o bethau y gellir eu gwneud sydd yn cyfateb ag anghenion penodol unrhyw gymuned. Felly, rwy'n credu mai un o'r pethau a fydd yn datblygu fan hyn yw y byddwn ni'n gweld arloesi yn digwydd mewn rhai cymunedau ac y bydd hynny'n dangos arfer dda i ni allu sicrhau ei bod yn digwydd mewn mannau eraill hefyd.

Y drafodaeth a gawson ni yn y Senedd ddoe amboutu premiwm y dreth gyngor. Roeddwn i'n cytuno'n llwyr ag e, ac yn meddwl bod hynny'n ddatganiad polisi eithaf pwysig, ond mae'n anoddach i ryw raddau i Gyngor Gwynedd neu gyngor Ceredigion i weithredu'r polisi nag yw e i Lywodraeth Cymru, achos maen nhw'n mynd i fod o dan fwy o bwysau gwahanol. Felly, a ddylai Llywodraeth Cymru gymryd y cyfrifoldeb i weithredu lle rydyn ni'n gwybod, ac yn deall, fod yna broblem? Mae'r dystiolaeth rydyn ni wedi'i chael wedi bod yn eithaf clir, yn fy marn i, fod yna broblem ddifrifol gyda thai haf, i ddefnyddio Dwyfor fel enghraifft—dyna lle mae'r peilot. Ac oherwydd hynny, oes yna gyfrifoldeb ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ymyrryd ei hun?

Wel, os ŷch chi'n awgrymu y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn penodi'r dreth gyngor—

Na, ond gwneud mwy. Dwi ddim yn awgrymu hynny, ond i gefnogi Cyngor Gwynedd, er enghraifft. Achos dwi'n gweld bod Llywodraeth Cymru'n gorff neu'n sefydliad llywodraethol cryfach na chyngor sir, ac mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru y cryfder i allu ymyrryd mewn ffordd nad oes gan y cyngor sir yr un gallu.

Wel, mae'n dibynnu beth ŷch chi'n golygu o ran pa ymyrraeth, rwy'n credu. Mae pethau y gellid eu gwneud ar lefel genedlaethol. Buaswn i'n dadlau bod yn rhaid sicrhau—. Mae amrywiaeth yn digwydd, onid oes, ar draws Cymru o ran impact ail gartrefi, er enghraifft, ac er mwyn adlewyrchu'r amgylchiadau lleol, rwy'n credu mai cyfrifoldeb llywodraeth leol yw gwneud hynny. Gallech chi, ar y pegwn arall—. Nid dyma beth rŷch chi'n ei ddweud, ond gallech chi ddweud, 'Wel, lan i ni yw e i benderfynu ar bob un o'r ymyraethau yma.' Dwi ddim yn credu bod hynny'n addas. Rwy'n credu ei fod e lan i lywodraeth leol i wneud hynny, i gydweithio â chymunedau ar lawr wlad. Beth rŷn ni yn gweld yw'r her arall. Hynny yw, bod cymunedau'n galw am fwy o ymyraethau’n lleol. Felly, rwy'n ffyddiog y bydd hynny'n cael ei adlewyrchu gan y gwaith wrth i gynghorau lleol ymateb. Ond toolkit yw hwn i roi'r arfau yn nwylo cynghorau lleol.

Ie, dwi'n gweld hynny, ac i ryw raddau, dwi'n eithaf licio'r syniad o Lywodraeth Cymru neu'r Senedd yn creu pwerau gwahanol i gynghorau sir eu defnyddio a'u gweithredu. Dwi'n licio'r syniad. Ond ydy hynny ambell waith yn ffordd i Lywodraeth Cymru actually gael cyfle i beidio â gweithredu ei hun pan ddylai fod yn gweithredu, achos Llywodraeth Cymru sydd wedi gosod yr her o filiwn o siaradwyr, nid Cyngor Gwynedd?

Ocê, mae hynny'n un ffordd o edrych arno fe, ond beth buaswn i'n dweud yw bod y galw, ar y cyfan—. Y diffyg oedd yn bodoli oedd bod y Llywodraeth ddim wedi gallu, erbyn hyn, creu'r posibilrwydd o ymateb. Dwi'n gwybod bod rhai wedi dymuno inni symud yn gynt, ond dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi symud mor gyflym ag y gallwn ni. Ond, o ran pob un o'r ymyraethau, mae lot o gynnydd wedi digwydd, a dyna'n swyddogaeth ni fel Llywodraeth yw darparu hynny, buaswn i'n dadlau.

Yr elfen arall yw—ac mae hwn wir yn bwysig, rwy'n credu, a dyna pam mae'r peilot yn fuddiol—fod rhyngberthynas unrhyw un ymyrraeth gyda phob un arall yn bwysig, ac mae hynny'n edrych yn wahanol mewn gwahanol gymunedau, buaswn i'n dadlau. Er enghraifft, mewn rhannau o'r gogledd, mae'r cwestiwn o ail gartrefi wir yn bwysig, ond efallai dyw'r cwestiwn o lety dros dro ddim cweit mor bwysig. Mae'n ddarlun cymhleth, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae'r berthynas rhwng yr ymyraethau yn bwysig, ac felly rwy'n credu bod hynny hefyd yn ddadl o blaid rhoi'r toolkit yma, ar y cyfan, yn nwylo'r un corff, os hoffech chi.

Ocê. Digon teg.

Minister, could I just ask you about the Welsh language commission, which has been set up to make recommendations on the future of Welsh as a community language and, indeed, link into the community housing plan? I guess it's often tempting for Government, Minister, when faced with difficult problems, to set up a commission or a committee because, in itself, that's something the Government can point to, as having done something. But, obviously, it's a question of whether it's necessary and what it will actually achieve. And we've had, I think, mixed evidence on this, really. But I wonder if you could begin by saying why you think that commission is necessary, given that we have existing commissioners with important roles.

Wel, y peth cyntaf i'w ddweud, Gadeirydd, o ran bod gennym ni gomisiynwyr, felly ai dyma swyddogaeth neu swydd iddyn nhw, mae'r cwestiwn yna'n codi, rwy'n credu, oherwydd ein bod ni wedi galw'r peth yn gomisiwn. Rwy'n credu bod y gwaith maen nhw'n ei wneud yn gwbl wahanol. Felly, dwi ddim yn gweld bod cysylltiad rhwng y ddau beth. Nid corff cyhoeddus arall yw hwn, ond grŵp o arbenigwyr sy'n cynghori'r Llywodraeth ar sefyllfa sosioieithyddol y Gymraeg mewn cymunedau ar draws Cymru, ac mae hynny, wrth gwrs, yn amrywio o le i le. Felly, maen nhw'n gallu ymateb i'r heriau, a'r heriau penodol diweddar yn sgil effaith, efallai, COVID a Brexit sydd wedi cael impact ar ein cymunedau ni. Bydd gofyn iddyn nhw edrych ar ganlyniadau'r cyfrifiad eleni a'n helpu ni fel Llywodraeth i ymateb i hynny o ran taflwybr 'Cymraeg 2050' yn gyffredinol, a datblygu model fydd yn cydblethu â'r syniad yma o ardaloedd o sensitifrwydd ieithyddol, hynny yw, nid Gaeltacht, lle mae gennych chi ffiniau penodol, ond cymunedau ar draws Cymru mewn man gwahanol ar eu siwrne o ran eu perthynas â'r Gymraeg. Beth mae hynny'n caniatáu inni fel Llywodraeth yw, os oes sail o dystiolaeth sy'n ddibynadwy, mae hynny'n galluogi ymyraethau polisi gwahanol mewn gwahanol gymunedau. Felly, mae gwaith y comisiwn, fel rwyf i'n ei weld, yn creu'r sail o dystiolaeth sydd yn cydblethu gyda'r gwaith hwnnw.

Okay, thank you very much, Minister. A further question from me before we move on to other committee members. In the evidence that we've already taken, Minister, there was a plea for clarity in terms of what Welsh Government means by 'community language'. Do you think it's sufficiently clear in terms of what Welsh Government means when it uses that term?

Well, I hope so, Chair, but I'm happy to set out what we mean by that. I think the first thing to say—

Y peth cyntaf i'w ddweud yw bod y Gymraeg yn iaith gymunedol, ond hefyd yn iaith genedlaethol. Felly, mae hynny wir yn bwysig. Rwyf wedi bod i amryw gyfarfodydd yn y gymuned ieithyddol—nid ieithoedd llai eu defnydd neu ieithoedd lleiafrifol ac ati—ac un o'r pethau sydd yn taro chi yw bod y Gymraeg mewn sefyllfa lle mae'n gymunedol ac yn genedlaethol. Dyw hynny ddim wastad yn wir, felly mae hynny'n bwysig iawn cofio.

Ond, o ran cwestiwn, 'Beth yw cymuned?', fe allen ni fod yma drwy'r dydd, oni allem ni? Ond, beth rwy'n golygu a beth rŷn ni'n golygu fel Llywodraeth wrth hynny yw'r cyfleoedd hynny yn ddaearyddol i siarad y Gymraeg wyneb yn wyneb gyda phobl yn eich tref neu'ch pentref chi yn lleol, neu'ch dinas chi. Hynny yw, pa iaith ŷch chi'n siarad yn y siop? Pa iaith ŷch chi'n siarad yn y clwb rygbi, neu ble bynnag ŷch chi? Felly, y cyfle daearyddol hwnnw i siarad y Gymraeg wyneb yn wyneb. Dyna beth sydd gyda fi mewn golwg yn hynny o beth.

Mae hynny'n ategu beth rwyf wedi dweud mewn cyd-destunau eraill. O ran y nod o filiwn o siaradwyr, mae'r rhifau wrth gwrs yn hollbwysig, ond mae'r elfen ddaearyddol yn bwysig hefyd—hynny yw, dosbarthiant y siaradwyr. So, dyna beth sydd gyda ni mewn golwg.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Sam Rowlands.

Thanks, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Apologies I can't be with you in person today. I think you've probably covered a bunch of the points I wanted to raise with you around some of the local and regional flexibility on things, but, just more broadly, I wonder, on the back of what you've just said there, how you would see getting the balance right between protecting the Welsh language—naturally, protectionism can be quite inward looking—versus then being a bold, ambitious, outward looking, welcoming country, and using the Welsh language to enable that to happen. So, how would you see that balance working, especially in areas in the context we're talking today, where there is a high prevalence of second homes? What do you think the Government's role is in getting that balance right? I'll have some more questions on the back of that. Thanks.

Well, I don't think there's a tension, actually, between being a welcoming, outward-looking country and wanting to ensure that we organise our economy and our society in a way that protects one of our key national assets, which is our language. I don't think any nation would regard those things as being in tension. And actually, at the heart of the Welsh language communities housing plan is, as we touched on a little earlier, that idea of sustainable communities and sustainable Welsh speaking communities. And that means communities where people can afford to live, if that is their choice—local people who want to continue living in their area can do that. That's important from a community sustainability and a language sustainability perspective, but also that it's economically sustainable. So, in parts of this plan and in other work that we are doing, you'll see those two things coming together. I don't think those two things are in tension. I think the challenge of imagination is to try and see how the interventions that we have can deliver both those objectives.

Sam.

Yes, thanks, Chair, and thanks, Minister, for that response. I absolutely agree in terms of making sure that those two things are working closely together. And, as you'll know, the visitor economy in my region, North Wales, is worth around £3.5 billion a year. I wonder how you would see the Welsh language in terms of growing our economy, especially in terms of growing and promoting the visitor economy in Wales.

Sorry, could you just repeat the question? I didn't quite catch the—

Yes, sorry. I was referring to the fact that the visitor economy in my region of North Wales is worth £3.5 billion a year, and I'd be interested to hear how you see the Welsh language being used to grow our economy, as perhaps a unique selling point in some ways of why Wales is such a brilliant nation, and how Welsh can be used to boost our economy, boost jobs, and especially within the visitor context as well.

I think, in our tourism offer as a country, we do celebrate our language as one of the gems of Welsh life, and I think that is a real asset for us, obviously. Within the context of this particular plan, you'll see that one of the ideas that we are consulting on is the idea of cultural ambassadors, which is based on work that already is happening in the Llŷn peninsula and in Ireland, actually, around, I think they're called, 'eco museums', where individuals are taken on to be ambassadors of the local history, local culture, the Welsh language more broadly. And that has a tourism offer, but it also has an offer for people moving in to live in those communities, and I think there's some success that we can build on there.

Can I just come back one more time, Chair?

Yes.

Thanks, Minister, for that. I've just thought of an example, as we're sitting on the Local Government and Housing Committee. I know Conwy council, where I'm still a councillor, put together a cultural strategy, which linked together culture and the economy. And I'm just wondering where your thoughts might be in terms of similar things being put together in other places in Wales to actually ensure that they're not seen as two separate entities, and that culture and the economy actually work hand in hand, and in particular the role of the Welsh language in boosting our economy and providing those brilliant jobs that we can offer in Wales.

Yes, I think we'd all support that, wouldn't we? I think, in my own local authority area as well, that sort of work is happening. And in the work that we do as a Government in the round-table on the economy and language, that is tied into the work that we're doing at a governmental level. So, certainly, we'd encourage that to happen across Wales as well.

Okay. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Minister. Carolyn.

Could you tell me about the Arfor 2 programme, and how it will be developed to support the aims of Welsh-language communities? I'd like to hear a bit more about that, please.

Iawn. Felly, mae'r gwaith ar Arfor 2 yn cael ei arwain gan Weinidog yr Economi, gyda'r Aelod dynodedig ar ran Plaid Cymru, fel rhan o'r cytundeb cydweithio. Beth fydd yn digwydd yw datblygu'r gwaith, wrth gwrs, sydd wedi digwydd yn Arfor—y rhan gyntaf o hynny. Mae gwerthusiad wedi digwydd o effeithlonrwydd yr ymyraethau ddaeth yn sgil Arfor, ac mae pethau diddorol i'w dysgu o hynny. Un o'r pethau oedd pa mor bwysig mae'r syniad yma o wraparound o ran y gefnogaeth sydd ar gael. Felly, cefnogaeth ariannol, cefnogaeth o ran sgiliau, cefnogaeth o ran mentora, ie, ond hefyd yr ystod o bethau eraill sydd yn bwysig i sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu cynnal pobl i fyw ac i ffynnu yn eu cymunedau, ac mae rhai o'r pethau yma yn y cynllun rŷn ni'n ei drafod heddiw. Felly, rwy'n gweld Arfor a'r cynllun yma yn gweithio law yn llaw, a dweud y gwir. Mae'r nod yn gyffredin, os hoffech chi.

Thank you. We went to an inspiring schools event, where all the colleges have been working in competitions, and Dafydd from Coleg Menai, Coleg Meirion Dwyfor, at the end, when he was wrapping up, he was saying, 'I hope that all your apprentices and people that are studying for this will use their skills in the local area and stay here locally'. I think that's really important as well, isn't it, that, as young people progress and learn skill sets, they are able to stay in their local area, with affordable housing. When we've been taking evidence here, in a lot of our beautiful areas in the west and the north, where the Welsh language is prevalent, there aren't many areas to develop houses and affordable houses as well. So, how can we overcome that? What measures are in place to ensure that there is that affordable housing? Also, how can we encourage communities to maybe work together as co-operatives—we've been discussing that—to build affordable housing?

I visited Bethesda, and Partneriaeth Ogwen—pardon me, I'm looking at Mabon here because he knows the area very well—and they're doing a lot of work there as well, building stronger communities, and I also met with Grŵp Cynefin, who are building a well-being hub in Penygroes, which is fantastic, with lots of facilities together—so, a theatre, housing for older people, a playgroup facility, a nursery facility, and a pharmacy. I think that's working with Welsh Government. But I was just wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about those examples, because I know that people have mentioned to me that when they wanted to go to see the doctor and speak in their own language, the Welsh language, they were not able to. So, I'm hearing snippets of information about things that are happening, but I would like to know a little bit more, really, about what the Government are doing to try and build these sustainable communities in those areas.

I suppose the range of interventions that we are talking about today, and when you'll be talking to Julie James around some of the housing questions specifically that you have, are all pushing in that direction, aren't they? So, they're about making sure that there is an affordable housing supply, that there's opportunity for people who want to continue working and living locally to be able to do that affordably, and also, where people are moving into the community, that they understand the linguistic, cultural context and are supported to participate in that fully. So, there's a range of interventions there.

What I would say is that there are things to learn, in terms of the sustainability of communities, also from other parts of the UK, where, actually, the language isn't particularly the driver, or not at all the driver in some cases. So, for example, if you look at the Lake district, Gwynedd Council had a report in which they referred to two reports that the Lake district authorities had commissioned, looking at, from a sustainability perspective, the balance between second homes and the housing stock at large, and where the point is reached where there's an impact, if you like. And so, one of the reports talked about that being 10 per cent of the housing stock, one of them talked about it being 20 per cent of the housing stock. Now, if you look at Gwynedd's perspective, there are many, many communities that are very significantly in excess of either 10 per cent or even 20 per cent. So, I think we've some things to learn from elsewhere as well, not from a language point of view, but in terms of the point you're making about the broader sustainability.

Can I just come in there with another? So, moving towards north-east Wales, where you're not immersed in the Welsh language—but in my ward of Treuddyn, there are a lot of Welsh speakers there—there is an issue in these areas, concentrating on younger people moving into Welsh language education, which is really good. We've been building new Welsh-medium facilities, for nursery, early years, which is fantastic. And I think there has been a need as well for that, so we've really welcomed the investment from Welsh Government. But the issue is, I think, when children choose to go to high school, and to continue—. They've been learning at primary school through the medium of Welsh, very confidently and fluently, and then, when they just try to encourage them to go the Welsh-medium high school and to continue to use it within the community—. And it's a confidence issue, I think, with young people of that age, to carry on using it in the community. So, how can we encourage that to happen, especially when you're not immersed in it? I know, when you go to north-west Wales and it's all around you, it's so easy then, isn't it, to use it conversationally? But, in north-east Wales, it's not spoken so much, so what do you think we could do there?

Well, I think Flintshire is a good example. We've been working with Flintshire—and, obviously, you know Flintshire very well—on their Welsh in education strategic plan, and they absolutely understand the level of ambition and have an ambitious approach to expanding Welsh-medium places, both at primary and secondary, which is very positive. On that transition point between primary and secondary, my personal view is that that is not necessarily about a set of individual choices; it's about the context in which people live their lives, and the important thing—. This is why the use of the language is so important, because that changes the context in which people live their lives. So, the more you hear around you—and the way that your question is going—the more confident you are to make that choice yourself, which is why a relentless focus on use of the language, as well as the capacity to speak it, is so important.

Yes, and no matter how little or much you know.

Absolutely, absolutely. Most people in Wales have a few words of Welsh, so let's make sure that everyone's using what they can.

Okay. Diolch.

Okay, Carolyn. Joel.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming today. One of the things that keeps coming up in all the evidence sessions is that lack of data, that data gap, that lack of knowledge. I note in the report that you've said that it's vitally important to create that stronger evidence base, and I just wanted to get some idea of what you think is that lack of data. Because I know when we've spoken with academics—it wasn't Simon Brooks, I can't remember which one said this—there's talk of the impact of second homes on the Welsh language, but there's just no data, empirical data, to prove one way or the other. It's just anecdotal evidence from communities, and so there would be a benefit of getting that data. I was just wondering what your thoughts were in terms of that lack of data and what's missing, if that makes sense.

Mae bylchau yn y data sydd ar gael. Un o swyddogaethau'r comisiwn o dan Simon Brooks yw ein helpu ni yn hynny o beth. Felly, bydd y gwaith mae'r comisiwn yn ei wneud yn dwyn ysbrydoliaeth ac yn dibynnu ar waith ystadegwyr, economegwyr, cyfreithiwr ac ati, i edrych ar rai o'r gapiau yma sydd yn y data sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r cyfrifiad, wrth gwrs, yn mynd i fod yn ddata pwysig eleni, ond dyw e ddim yn, efallai, ymateb i'r pwynt penodol rydych chi'n ei wneud. Rydych chi yn iawn i ddweud bod y sefyllfa o ran data o ran effaith ail gartrefi yn uniongyrchol ar ddefnydd iaith yn heriol ac yn gymhleth. Felly, dyna pam mae gwaith y comisiwn mor bwysig. Beth fyddwn i hefyd yn ei ddweud yw bod lot o dystiolaeth, lot o ddadansoddiad o'r hyn sy'n digwydd mewn gwledydd eraill, ac mae hynny'n bwysig o ran cyd-destun. Mae'n sicr yn bwysig o ran gweld beth yw'r ymyriadau sydd wedi cael eu dilyn mewn llefydd eraill, ond mae'n rhaid rhoi hynny mewn cyd-destun bod beth sy'n digwydd mewn gwledydd eraill yn wahanol. Mae'r cyd-destun yn wahanol o le i le, felly mae angen bod ychydig yn ofalus gyda hynny hefyd, byddwn i'n dweud.

So, you would foresee the commission commission further research into that—further university studies or even just doing its own on-the-ground research. But what about the Welsh Government, then? Would you be looking to do your own research or would you just hand everything over to this commission?

We've got a series of interventions that we're talking about at the moment—what we're talking about today, what you'll be talking to Julie James about, we've got the Welsh language community housing plan, we've got the pilot in Dwyfor. So, there's a lot happening in terms of Government intervention. They will need to be evaluated and that will provide a basis of evidence about how effective various things have been. I dare say there'll be a mix of success and less success; it's just the nature of the beast, isn't it? We will do our own evaluation of those. The point I was making to you is that the point of having a body of experts in various fields work with us on this from a modelling point of view, from looking at what a sociolinguistic model looks like in different communities in Wales, is that there is, I think, quite a big gap in the data that we currently have. So, that is really the work that they will be doing.

If there are no further questions—. Sorry, Mabon.

Ambell i gwestiwn, os caf i, os gwelwch yn dda, Gadeirydd. Dwi'n mynd i ofyn drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Jest ar gyfer y record, o ran y peilot yn Nwyfor, beth mae'r peilot am ei wneud yn fwy neu yn wahanol i'r hyn mae Gwynedd yn ei wneud yn barod? Beth yn ychwanegol fydd y peilot yn ei wneud?

O ran y pethau sydd yn y cynllun hwn?

Ie.

Mae'r gwaith o ran y gweithgor asiantau tai, y llysgenhadon diwylliannol—mae lot o'r stwff yna efallai yn rhan o'r peilot. Rwyf i fy hun yn moyn gweld beth sy'n dod yn ôl o'r ymgynghoriad. Mae'n amlwg bod y gwaith mae Julie yn ei wneud, ac mae Rebecca yn ei wneud—mae lot o hynny wrth wraidd y peilot. O ran yr ymyraethau yma, efallai byddai o ddiddordeb i brofi rhai o'r rhain yn y peilot hefyd. Ond gallech chi weld y rhain yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad yn gyffredinol o'r cychwyn. Felly, byddem ni'n moyn ystyried hynny yn sgil beth ddaw yn ôl o'r ymgynghoriad.

Ocê. Oherwydd mae Gwynedd yn gwneud lot o'r gwaith yn barod, yn amlwg, a dwi eisiau jest deall, yn ogystal â'r hyn y mae Cyngor Gwynedd yn ei wneud, beth yn ychwanegol sy'n cael ei wneud—

Wel, mae yna rai pwerau newydd yn dod i mewn nawr yn sgil y newidiadau deddfwriaethol, felly mae cyfle i dreialu rhai o'r rheini hefyd efallai.

Dyna fo. Mae hynny'n ddifyr i'w glywed. Yn eich tystiolaeth—tudalen pecyn 54, tudalen 3 o'ch tystiolaeth o dan 'grŵp llywio gwerthwyr tai'—rydych yn nodi:

'Ceir enghraifft lle mae gwerthwyr tai, awdurdodau lleol a'r Mentrau Iaith wedi bod yn cydweithio gyda Llywodraeth Cymru drwy ddosbarthu pecynnau gwybodaeth leol.'

Ac yna rydych yn sôn am grŵp llywio gwerthwyr tai. Y dystiolaeth dwi'n ei gael yn sicr, a'r hyn dwi'n ei glywed, ydy bod nifer o werthwyr tai ddim mewn gwirionedd yn darparu'r pecynnau yna. Mae yna strygl i gael y pecynnau. Felly, sut ydych chi am gael—beth ydy'r term—buy-in gan werthwyr tai? Achos maen nhw'n ganolog i'r hyn rydych chi'n sôn amdano yn y fan yma. Sut ydych chi am sicrhau bod gwerthwyr tai yn prynu mewn i'ch gweledigaeth chi ac yn chwarae rhan yn y broses hon?

Dyw'r trafodaethau yna ddim wedi cychwyn eto. Fel rwy'n ei ddweud, rŷn ni wedi bod yn ymgynghori. Byddai gennyf ddiddordeb i glywed mwy am y profiad sydd gyda chi o hynny a dweud y gwir, ond rŷn ni'n sicr wedi clywed enghreifftiau o hynny’n digwydd yn llwyddiannus. Efallai, Bethan, y gallech chi ategu.

Ym Môn wnaethon ni'r pecyn croeso i ddechrau, ac rydyn ni hefyd wedi cael trafodaethau cadarnhaol efo sir Gâr, ond dwi'n meddwl bod ymyraethau efo'r gwerthwyr tai lleol yn amrywiol ar draws y gorllewin. Felly, os ydym ni'n pori trwy ymatebion yr ymgynghoriad yma a gweld bod yna rhywbeth mwy pendant y medrwn ni ei wneud ar draws, fel ein bod ni'n sefydlogi ac yn cael yr un effaith efo'r gwerthwyr tai lleol—. Ond mae'r ymyraethau ar hyn o bryd yn lleol.

Rydyn ni hefyd wedi cael adborth, a dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n dechrau dod drwy'r ymgynghoriad, ein bod ni angen ailedrych ar y pecyn croeso a'r cysyniad yna hefyd, ac efallai bod yr hwyluswyr—y cultural ambassadors yma—yn gweithio hefyd efo grŵp y gwerthwyr tai. So, mae yna waith i'w wneud. Rydyn ni angen dadansoddi beth sydd yn dod drwy'r ymgynghoriad. Ond yn benodol, yr ymyraethau rydyn ni wedi bod yn gweithio arnyn nhw ydy'r rhai yng Nghaerfyrddin ac efallai ym Môn. Felly, dydyn ni ddim wedi cael y sgyrsiau yna yng Ngwynedd, fel petai, hyd yma. Ond, mae yna sgôp, a beth sy'n galonogol ydy, o'r sgyrsiau cychwynnol, bod yna awydd i fynd i'r afael â hwn, a dwi'n meddwl mai hwnna sy'n bwysig. Dwi ddim yn meddwl ein bod ni'n mynd i'w gael o'n iawn y tro cyntaf, ond os ydym ni'n gallu cael gwerthwyr tai on board, ac eisiau gweithio efo ni, mae o'n mynd i fod yn gam pwysig.

Un argymhelliad, neu un tip, hwyrach, ydy nid o reidrwydd y gwerthwyr tai, ond eich bod chi'n gweithio efo cyfreithwyr, achos mae'r cyfreithwyr yn lleol ac maen nhw'n delio efo'r prynwyr a buasent yn barod i roi pecynnau croeso ac iaith yn fwy na gwerthwyr tai.

Un o'r prif heriau sydd yn wynebu'r cymunedau a'r bobl sy'n byw, neu yn eisiau byw, yn y cymunedau ydy fforddiadwyedd. Rydyn ni wedi clywed yr wythnos diwethaf, er enghraifft, am gut, sièd, ar draeth Abersoch yn gwerthu am £200,000. Mae yna dŷ tair llofft ym Mwlchtocyn yn mynd am £1.5 miliwn. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am dai sy'n cael eu gwerthu ym Morfa Nefyn am £400,000 un mis a deufis wedyn yn mynd am £600,000. Er mwyn i bobl leol fedru fforddio'r rhain, rydyn ni'n sôn yn y fan yma am gyflogaeth cyfartalog o £60,000 neu ragor. Dydy hynny ddim yn realistig. Felly, ydych chi'n meddwl fod yr hyn rydych chi'n ei gynnig yma yn mynd i fynd i'r afael â fforddiadwyedd yn lleol?

Mae hwn yn rhan o'r cynllun. Fel gwnes i ei ddweud ar y cychwyn, mae hwn yn ychwanegu'r elfennau ehangach, os hoffwch chi, sydd yn eistedd law yn llaw gyda'r gwaith y mae Julie a'r gwaith mae Rebecca wedi bod yn ei wneud. O ran cyflenwad tai fforddiadwy yn yr ystyr gyfyng honno, fe wnaf ofyn ichi ofyn i Julie ehangu ar hynny pan ddaw hi o'ch blaen chi—mae hynny yn ei maes polisi hi. Mae peth o'r gwaith sydd gyda ni fan hyn yn mynd i gael effaith bositif, rŷn ni'n gobeithio, ar hynny, ond mae'n rhaid gweld y darlun cyflawn.

Mae cymdeithasau tai yn mynd i fod yn ganolog, felly, er mwyn sicrhau hyn. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod angen inni edrych eto ar ryddhau tir cyhoeddus neu sicrhau bod newidiadau mewn cynllunio er mwyn i gymdeithasau tai fedru gael tir i ddatblygu tai cymunedol i bobl leol? Ydy hynny'n opsiwn, ydych chi'n meddwl?

Mae hynny ym maes Julie James, so rwy'n mynd i ofyn ichi ofyn y cwestiwn hwn iddi hi, os nag oes ots gyda chi. Mae gennyf i farn, ond fe wnaf i ofyn ichi ofyn iddi.

Iawn. Os caf i, Gadeirydd, efo'ch amynedd, un peth y mae Dr Brooks yn rhybuddio amdano yn ei bapur ydy'r peryg yma ein bod ni'n mynd i weld nifer o bobl yn symud i mewn sy'n methu â siarad Cymraeg, wrth bod tai yn dod yn rhydd, felly sut ydych chi'n meddwl ydych chi'n mynd i fynd i'r afael â sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn parhau yn iaith gymunedol i bobl sydd yn symud mewn, bod pobl yn gweld gwerth yr iaith ac yn dysgu'r iaith? Ydy hyn yn mynd i sicrhau bod, yn nhermau Dr Brooks, retirees yn dysgu'r Gymraeg ac yn mynd i gyfrannu at dwf yr iaith?

Dyna yn union y math o enghreifftiau sydd gyda ni yn y fan hyn, gwaith y llysgenhadon diwylliannol, ac mae hwn yn eistedd o fewn ystod ehangach o ymyraethau polisi'r Gymraeg. Felly, mae cyfleoedd i bobl i ddysgu'r Gymraeg. Mae gyda chi ymwybyddiaeth yn y cynllun yma o sut rŷch chi'n esbonio i bobl sy'n symud i mewn i gymuned beth yw'r cyfleoedd lleol, pa mor bwysig yw'r iaith a'r diwylliant lleol, diwylliant cenedlaethol, ac mae hynny'n rhan o'r darlun ar y cyd. O fewn y cynllun yma, yr elfen sy'n darparu hynny yw'r cysylltiad rhwng y llysgenhadon diwylliannol a pholisi iaith ehangach.

Felly, yr hyn sy'n ganolog i hyn i gyd ydy'r elfen wirfoddol yna. Mae'r cyfan yn wirfoddol, yn dibynnu ar ewyllys da pobl, boed yn werthwyr tai neu bobl sy'n symud i mewn i ddysgu'r iaith. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod ewyllys da yn bodoli ac ein bod ni'n mynd i lwyddo, felly, yn ddibynnol ar ewyllys da yn unig?

Beth fyddech chi'n awgrymu fel rhywbeth amgen?

Gofyn i chi ydw i.

Wel, rydych chi'n moyn i bobl ddeall fel rŷm ni'n deall beth yw gwerth yr iaith a bod pobl yn moyn dysgu'r iaith fel maen nhw yn eu miloedd. Felly, mae gennym ni gyfle yn y fanna. Pan mae pobl yn penderfynu symud i mewn i gymunedau ym mhob rhan o Gymru, mae cyfleoedd iddyn nhw i ddysgu Cymraeg, i ddanfon eu plant i ysgolion Cymraeg. Mae gyda ni ystod o ymyraethau sydd yn eu cefnogi nhw a'u hannog nhw i wneud hynny. Mae hynny'n rhan o'r darlun, ynghyd â beth rŷm ni'n trafod heddiw, ac mae hynny, rwy'n credu, yn ffordd lot fwy cynhwysol o rannu buddiannau siarad Cymraeg gyda phobl.

Okay. Alun Davies.

Rwy'n cytuno gyda'r pwynt mae Mabon wedi bod yn ei wneud, achos beth dŷch chi'n awgrymu yn fan hyn fel rhan o'r cynllun—dŷch chi'n sôn am y cultural ambassadors yma, ac estate agent steering groups a'r stwff yma—maen nhw'n nice to haves, ond ydyn nhw rili yn mynd at wraidd y broblem sy'n wynebu pobl sydd methu fforddio tŷ yn y pentref neu dre neu gymuned lle maen nhw'n byw—a fair chance for local buyers? Rwy'n gallu mynd i edrych ar dŷ yn Kensington Palace Gardens; dwi ddim yn gallu fforddio hynny. Beth ydy'r pwynt o ddweud wrth bobl, 'Rŷch chi'n gallu edrych ar dŷ', mae'r tŷ ar werth am £600,000, er enghraifft, fel mae Mabon yn awgrymu, a dŷch chi'n gweithio yn y sector gyhoeddus yn ennill £25,000, efallai? Does dim modd eich bod chi'n gallu fforddio hynny. Does dim modd. Os rydym ni o ddifri amboutu beth sy'n digwydd, bod rhaid inni reoli'r farchnad mewn ffordd, achos grym a phwerau economaidd sydd yn fan hyn, a dyna ble mae gwraidd y broblem, dyw cultural ambassador ddim yn mynd i fynd i'r afael â hynny.

Na. Byddai'r ddadl yn gryfach, os caf i ddweud, os mai dyna'r unig beth fyddwn ni'n ei wneud, ond fel rwy'n dweud, mae hynny'n rhan o'r darlun ehangach, onid yw e? Mae ystod o bethau o ran cynllunio. Mae ystod o bethau o ran trethu—

Dwi'n deall hynny, ond rheoli'r farchnad.

Wel, dyna beth mae'n rhaid inni ei wneud—gwneud ymyraethau mewn marchnad sydd yn methu. Rwy'n cytuno gyda chi; mae'r farchnad yn sicr yn methu, wrth gwrs, a dyna'r ymyraethau sydd gyda ni i ymateb i hynny.

So, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn credu bod y farchnad dai yn methu, neu ddim yn gweithio, mewn ardaloedd gwahanol yn y wlad. Mae hyn yn ddatganiad pwysig. Mae'n hynod o bwysig, a dwi'n falch i'ch clywed chi'n dweud hynny mor glir, Weinidog. Dwi'n cymryd bod Llywodraeth Cymru, a oedd wedi eu condemnio yn y Siambr ddoe as a socialist Government—roeddwn i'n falch iawn o glywed hynny; dŷn ni ddim yn clywed e ddigon—yn sefyll ar ran y bobl sy'n cael eu methu gan y farchnad yna.

Yn sicr.

Dwi'n falch o glywed hynny hefyd. Beth ydy'r ymateb polisi i'r methiant? Dyna beth rŷm ni'n trafod. Mae hynny yn symudiad pwysig, dwi'n credu. Dwi'n falch iawn clywed hynny, a dwi yn meddwl, fel pwyllgor, y dylem ni ystyried ymyriadau polisi economaidd Llywodraeth Cymru yng nghyd-destun y datganiad clir mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei wneud.

Os caf i jest ddweud, mae'r rhagair i'r cynllun rŷm ni'n ymgynghori arno fe ar hyn o bryd yn datgan yn glir iawn beth yw'n safbwynt ni yn hyn o beth.

Dwi'n ddiolchgar am y datganiad yna; mae e'n un clir a phwysig. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod tŷ yn annedd byw neu'n ased, ac os ydy o'n ased, a ddylai pobl felly gael prynu tai a gwneud elw ar ei gefn o fel incwm, fel petai, ar draul pobl leol sydd angen tŷ i fyw ynddo? Ydy hynny'n egwyddor efo chi? Ydych chi'n credu bod hynny'n iawn yn foesol?

Holl bwrpas y polisi rydyn ni'n ei drafod heddiw, ac y byddwch chi'n ei drafod gyda Julie a Rebecca maes o law, yw ein bod ni'n cydnabod bod angen ymyrryd yn y farchnad i sicrhau bod gan bobl hawl i fyw yn y cymunedau lle maen nhw'n cael eu codi. Dyw hynny ddim yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd oherwydd beth mae Alun newydd fod yn trafod gyda fi, ac felly ein hymateb ni yw sicrhau bod pobl yn cael cyfle i wneud hynny. Mae'n sefyllfa gymhleth, mae perthynas gymhleth rhwng hyn a'r economi. Rwy'n credu bod y Llywodraeth yn dangos uchelgais yn ymateb i hynny mewn ffordd gyflym, cyflymach na byddai lot wedi disgwyl. Mae rhai, wrth gwrs, yn disgwyl mwy o gyflymder, ond mae heriau, fel byddwch chi'n cydnabod, yn hynny o beth hefyd. Felly, rwy'n credu bod yr uchelgais rŷm ni'n dangos fel Llywodraeth yn adlewyrchu pa mor bwysig yw hyn.

Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to touch on your comment there when you said that people should have the right to live in the community where they grew up. Why? Because if we look throughout history, even with my own family, we've all migrated around the country for work and everything. If it's the case that you should be able to buy a property where you live, and there's no jobs to support that, it calls for greater intervention then, doesn't it, to bring the jobs there? I just wanted to know why you see it as a right to live in a community. Because I'm fortunate; of all my friends, I was the first one to buy a house, because I managed to save and afford and that, but when I look at my other friends, most of them have moved out of my village to nearby villages or whatever, and they've just accepted that, because of what they can afford. I was just wondering why you think it's a right, when we talk about rights.

I think, if I may, the answer to that is in the question. You referred to accepting that, which I think supposes that that isn't the ideal outcome that they were looking for. People make a range of choices in life, and they should, but for those people who would like to be able to continue to live in the community where they were raised, and to earn a living and to be able to afford a house there, I think it is the job of the Government to do everything we can to support that, and that is what this range of interventions is intended to do.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Thank you very much for coming in to give evidence to committee today and to your officials here in person and joining us remotely. You will be sent a transcript of this evidence session to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

The committee will now move to private session.