Equality and Social Justice Committee

Welcome back to the second session of our fuel poverty inquiry. For this session, we have Elliw Llyr, housing strategy officer for Ynys Môn county council and Matthew Kennedy, Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru. Welcome to you both. I wonder if I could just start by asking you the extent to which you think the current Warm Homes programme has been effective in tackling fuel poverty. Elliw, would you like to start?

Diolch, a diolch am y gwahoddiad i fod yn rhan o'r sesiwn y prynhawn yma. Dwi'n meddwl bod Arbed a Nyth wedi bod yn llwyddiannus yn targedu tlodi tanwydd, ond dwi'n meddwl bod o'n bwysig cydnabod hefyd fod tlodi tanwydd yn multifaceted ac mae yna oblygiadau o ran hyn yn ariannol ar unigolion, teuluoedd, y gymdeithas a'r wladwriaeth.

Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod o i'w ganmol bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi nodi eu bod nhw eisiau dileu tlodi tanwydd a bod hyn yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn eu rhaglen llywodraethu nhw ar gyfer 2021-26. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod yr her yn dal i fodoli, fel roeddwn i'n sôn. Mae'n effeithio gymaint ar wahanol elfennau o fewn tŷ rhywun, sef, ydy rhywun yn bwyta, ydy rhywun yn cynhesu'i dŷ. Costau: mae yna gymaint o sylw ar hyn o bryd ar gostau'n codi, heb sôn am unrhyw oblygiadau, wedyn, ar iechyd meddwl, iechyd corfforol, ac yn y pen draw, wedyn, y gost ar y wlad. Felly, mae'r hyn y mae Llywodraeth Cymru'n trio'i wneud drwy Arbed a Nyth angen, efallai, cydweithio'n well er mwyn cael mwy allan o'r rhaglenni yn symud yn ei flaen.

Thank you. Matthew Kennedy, your view, please.

Yes. I think I wouldn't disagree with anything Elliw said there. This is going to be, obviously, treading over some old ground in terms of our reflections on the programme, but, certainly, in terms of capturing good evaluation, robust monitoring data has been a real challenge. The Wales Audit Office are really, really clear that, actually, we haven't had a really clear understanding of where a household was to where they got to in terms of the interventions they received. Undoubtedly, lots of the interventions had a positive impact, but whether they actually lifted them out of fuel poverty I think is another question.

I think I'd definitely echo Elliw's point around this is all so interconnected, isn't it? Fuel poverty in itself is a real—. It's a broader challenge around poverty, about housing costs, about eating costs and the costs of day-to-day living. We know, for example, that housing costs are one of the leading factors in poverty generally, so, making progress on this agenda in particular is also very reliant on making progress across the piece so that we actually have affordable—all the main things in people's lives are sufficiently affordable to keep them living a desirable quality of life. I think in that sense, there's a real onus on any future programme to look at that broader impact on household financial resilience. I think also it's worth recognising that the scheme itself, obviously, is reliant on factors that are not in the Welsh Government's domain, not in their control. And energy price increases obviously is a major factor at the moment, but, you know, welfare changes, the £20 cut to universal credit, and local housing allowance rates are a massive issue in the private rental sector, where they are so wildly out of pace with actual rents that that in itself is going to be one of the factors that could indirectly push people into fuel poverty. So, I think it's never thinking about a specific element in and as of itself; it's about thinking of that whole piece when it comes to household resilience.

The Arbed programme was actually wound up last November, and the new programme that the Welsh Government's currently consulting on isn't due to kick off until the 2023-24 financial year. How big a concern is that? What impact might that have on the sorts of people you're talking about? Do you want to start, Matthew, and I'll come to Elliw afterwards?

Yes. It's huge, isn't it? Let's face it. It's such a trying time for households across Wales, when we think about that cost-of-living increase combined with ongoing uncertainty across a number of industries, and that employment situation for many, many people. When we think about the huge energy price increases, fuel increases more broadly as well, all that just comes at such a terrible time to be thinking, well, actually, Arbed, even though it's certainly not perfect, it's one of the really good ways to potentially help people who might be struggling at the moment. And I think not having that in the interim is certainly going to cause additional hardship. You know, as a charity, we don't know what that really looks like, and I'm conscious we're waiting on the evaluation of the Arbed programme, and I would hope that would come out with lots of really robust learning for us, to really inform the future of that scheme. But, no doubt, at the present time, lots of our members who work directly with people who are maybe struggling to afford their rent, struggling with their general living costs, seeing increased child poverty—you know all this stuff, all the really difficult things we by no means want to see—. There are no easy solutions, and, certainly, at a time when all that is becoming maybe potentially worse, yes, Arbed not being around is certainly a massive concern.

Elliw, how big a problem is it from the local authority perspective?

Dwi'n meddwl taw un o brif wendidau Arbed ydy ei fod o wedi bod yn gynllun byr. Efallai ei fod o wedi bod yn dair blynedd, ac wedyn mae o'n dod i stop, ac wedyn mae yna gynllun arall yn cychwyn. Mae'n anodd i awdurdod lleol wedyn i adnabod adnoddau tymor hir iddo fo. Does yna ddim refeniw yn dod i mewn i lywodraeth leol ar gyfer atgyfnerthu neu gefnogi'r cynlluniau yma, felly mae'n rhaid dibynnu ar swyddogion sy'n bodoli'n barod. Dydy'r cyngor ddim yn gallu helpu yn llawn efo hynny achos mae yna nifer o priorities eraill yn dod i mewn. Ac os ydy o'n anodd i'r awdurdod lleol fod yn cynllunio, yna sut mae pobl sydd i fod i gymryd rhan, ac yn annog i gael cymryd rhan yn y cynllun, fod i wybod amdano fe?

Yn aml mae llywodraeth leol yn cael ei gweld fel logistics partner yn hyn i gyd, a than fod rhywun yn gweld llythyr efo enw'r cyngor arno fo, dydyn nhw ddim yn trystio'r cynlluniau. Ac yn aml iawn, pan fo cynlluniau fel hyn yn cychwyn, mae yna bobl yn ffonio'r cyngor yn gofyn, 'Ydy hyn yn un go iawn? Ydy o'n genuine, ynteu oes yna rywun yn trio ein 'con-o' ni yn fan yma?' Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n bwysig ofnadwy fod yna neges gyson yn mynd allan i bobl a bod pobl yn gwybod ei fod o ar y ffordd. Achos, yn aml iawn, mae cynlluniau'n dod i mewn, yn cael eu cwblhau, ac yna maen nhw'n mynd ac mae'r cyngor yn dal i fod yna. Ni fel cyngor sy'n pigo ymholiadau, cwynion, pethau yn barhaus yn ystod y cyfnod yma. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen cysondeb a pharhad i'r cynllun.

How successful do you think Nest and Arbed have been in using data that's available to target likely eligible homes, and for the way in which the reporting and monitoring of these programmes have been done? Elliw, do you want to start there?

Fel awdurdod lleol, dŷn ni'n cyfeirio pobl at Nyth, a dyna le mae'r berthynas, a dweud y gwir, yn gorffen. Dŷn ni'n trio ei annog o, ond eto, heb yr adnodd yna, heb y refeniw y tu ôl iddo fo, dŷn ni ond yn gallu cyfeirio pobl ymlaen. Dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod wedyn beth sy'n digwydd, os oes yna unrhyw issues yn y system a dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod wedyn pa ddata maen nhw'n gweithio oddi arno fo. Mae ganddyn nhw griteria mewn lle, ond does yna ddim lle i lywodraeth leol ddylanwadu neu geisio helpu efo hynny.

Hefo Arbed, wedyn, dwi'n meddwl ei bod yn deg dweud mai sporadic ydy ein perthynas ni wedi bod hefo Arbed am Byth, ac mae'n dibynnu wedyn ar ba ddata sydd gennym ni. Dŷn ni, yn y gorffennol, wedi gweithio'n agos ar gynlluniau; ar droeon eraill, dydyn ni ddim wedi cael dim cysylltiad â chynlluniau, ond eto dŷn ni i fod yna yn hyrwyddo'r cynllun. Fel roeddwn i'n sôn gynnau, ni ydy'r wyneb, ni'n aml iawn ydy'r un mae pobl yn trystio, ac weithiau dydyn ni ddim yn deall yn iawn pam fod un tŷ yn cael ei ddewis dros y llall neu pam fod ardal yn cael ei dewis dros y llall, er ein bod ni'n trio helpu a rhoi data a gwybodaeth leol. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen dod â'r awdurdod lleol i mewn yn gryfach.

Thank you. Matthew, your view on the use of data.

I think data is one of the key challenges for the programme going forward. I think it's really encouraging to know the Welsh Government have been working on housing stock analytical resource, so combining things like modelled, administrative and survey data at an individual house level to better understand the quality of that home. I think that could be a good way to target properties. At the moment, that kind of information is too patchy, it's not granular enough, so when we think about achieving value for money for the programme, making sure interventions have maximum impacts, having that is really key. I'm conscious that that resource as a data resource at the moment isn't really widely available, but certainly is going to be used to inform things like the Welsh housing condition survey and that sort of stuff, so it'd be really good to understand how that information and knowledge can be migrated further into the sector, particularly from a local authority perspective, so that authorities are more empowered with that data, because it is going to be absolutely vital for how that activity is better targeted.

Thank you. Sarah Merry—Sarah Murphy, I beg your pardon, wanted to come in at this point, just to have a look a bit further at how these current programmes have been working. Sarah.

Thank you, Chair. I don't mind being called Sarah Merry, that's fine. [Laughter.] I'll come first to you, Matthew, if that's okay, just looking at the support under the current programme. So, I'll ask what I asked in the previous session: Localgiving found that neither Nest nor Arbed addressed immediate needs, and actually praised local projects, because they felt that they were the ones who provided the immediate interventions, like the fuel vouchers, draught excluders and thick curtains. Do you think this is a fair assessment?

A difficulty if you want to know how fair that assessment is—. I can go still through the evidence in more detail, but I guess one of the things that struck me from the Climate Assembly UK was that people want to see local, tailored solutions, with authorities, partners, third sector organisations working together on really local, sometimes bespoke, solutions rather than a one-size-fits-all.

So, I think it is encouraging to hear some of those what seem lower intervention-type measures are actually really highly valued in practice. When we think about Nest, with things like boiler replacements, which it's become a bit synonymous with, part of the issue has been around not having that whole-house approach. We know, anecdotally, lots of challenges have been around maybe replacing things like boilers, but actually the rest of the house being in quite a poor state of disrepair. So, I think, for us, having that whole-house approach going forward is going to be absolutely vital. We're thinking about doors, windows, roofs, and those are the physical means, but certainly things like household education, better understanding of how you use certain energy sources, all that has a massive bearing on how people might have maximum efficiency from their heating system. So, I think it's encouraging to hear that kind of local practical stuff being valued so highly, but I think they've got a real place and can find better parity with the current programme with less stringent means of doing that kind of retrofitting activity.

Thank you. And then, just to follow up, really, we also heard the Bevan Foundation call for the environmentally damaging practice of installing new boilers rather than fixing existing ones to be stopped immediately. So, do you agree with that, and then, beyond the fabric changes to improve energy efficiency, what other support would be offered by a successor scheme?

Yes, definitely. I think that makes complete sense. Some of these boilers are still very much within their usable lifespan and might need some quite minor maintenance activity at some phases. I think, beyond maybe the physical retrofitting we've been talking about, for me it's around better consumer advice. I couldn't go out tomorrow and figure out how to make my home more energy efficient. I'd find that really tricky, and I work in the sector. So, I think, in terms of consumer advice, it can be a real hotchpotch of things, really, when you think about—. There are lots of stuff at the moment about air-source heat pumps, when we know, actually, there are lots of different things that need to happen to make an air-source heat pump work really effectively. They're really expensive. There might be other minor changes that can happen to make a house perform more effectively. I think we need really good, robust consumer information that's easy to digest. That's easy to say and hard to do, but I think that's the side we have to work more on because at the moment there's good industry and sector knowledge maybe about what needs to happen, but poor information out there for consumers to go out and actually think, 'Well, how do I make a really informed, intelligent choice, based on evidence that I can really trust?' Because if you're going to ask people to invest thousands of pounds-worth of money in improving their home or looking at how we better spend public money through grants and that sort of stuff, we need to base it on a really robust evidence base that people can really trust.

That's brilliant, thank you so much. Elliw, can I ask you the same in terms of Nest and Arbed not addressing the immediate need and, as I said, other local projects being praised for what they were able to do? Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Os ydyn ni'n sôn am whole-house approach, yna dŷn ni angen whole-person approach hefyd a whole-behavioural approach hefyd. Ac, yn sicr, un peth dŷn ni'n ei gefnogi yn Ynys Môn ydy wardeiniaid ynni sy'n rhoi bron iawn one-to-one i berson er mwyn cael y defnydd gorau o'u tai. Ac ar bob cyfle efo Arbed am Byth, dwi wedi bod yn cefnogi hynny achos dim jest y mesurau rydych chi eu hangen—rydych chi angen hefyd gweithio efo pobl.

Thank you. And then, again, what do you think of what the Bevan Foundation has said about stopping the replacement of boilers and fixing the ones that are there, and also, moving past the fabric changes, is there anything else that's been a success?

Efallai fod hynny'n berthnasol efo Nyth gan fod Arbed wedi bod yn edrych ar fesurau eraill hefyd, ond, ie, cefnogi, os oes modd cadw system i fynd a'i fod o'n fit for purpose, yna efallai mai newid bach sydd angen ei wneud.

Thank you. And then just to ask you as well about what your view would be on the benefit payments being discounted from the income assessments so that it could be opened out to more people and the threshold could be raised?

Eto, dwi'n meddwl mai Nyth ydy'r cynllun yna, ac, wrth gwrs, dŷn ni'n croesawu hynny os ydy o'n helpu mwy o bobl ar incymau isel.

Wonderful, thank you. Matthew, that question as well.

Yes, I'd completely agree.

Thank you very much, both of you. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch. Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Yn amlwg, dŷn ni'n gwybod, a dŷn ni wedi sôn amdano fe'n barod, fod yna waethygu yn mynd i fod yn sefyllfa'r rheini sydd mewn tlodi tanwydd. Felly, o ran meddwl am y cynllun olynol, sut gall unrhyw gynllun neu gynlluniau olynol fynd i'r afael ag angen uniongyrchol, angen dwfn? Sut dylem ni wneud hynny? A meddwl hefyd sut dylem ni nodi'r aelwydydd sydd ag angen uniongyrchol. Pa ymyriadau a fyddai'n briodol eu defnyddio ar frys, efallai? Elliw, ydych chi eisiau mynd yn gyntaf?

Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i yn cyfeirio yn fy ymateb efallai nad ydy pobl yn aml iawn yn cysidro eu hunain i fod mewn tlodi tanwydd, ond yn sicr mae'r holl newyddion ar gostau byw uwch yn mynd i dynnu sylw pobl at hyn, a gobeithio ei fod yn mynd i annog pobl i ddod ymlaen. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen i'r cynllun i'r dyfodol fod yn ystyried financial inclusion hefyd, a hefyd gyngor ar sut i wneud y defnydd gorau o'ch cartref. Yn sicr, o fewn gwasanaethau tai, rydym ni'n cynnig financial inclusion, cymorth i bobl gael at fudd-daliadau, cymorth ymarferol, a hefyd rydym ni'n gweithio efo Citizens Advice. Mae gennym ni hefyd swyddfa o dwls i helpu bobl i gael mynediad at fudd-dal, achos dwi'n meddwl mai jest un agwedd ydy tlodi tanwydd—mae yna nifer o bethau eraill yn mynd ymlaen hefyd y gallem ni fod yn helpu efo. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen i gynllun fod yn cynnwys lot mwy na jest mesurau oer, os liciwch chi, o newid yn y tŷ—mae'n rhaid mynd â'r person efo chi hefyd.

Ac, yn amlwg, o ran incwm, rŷn ni'n gwybod bod Nest ac Arbed wedi'u targedu, neu roeddech chi ond yn gymwys ar gyfer y cynlluniau hynny os oeddech chi ar fuddion prawf modd, ac rŷn ni'n gwybod bod llawer o bobl, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd mwy gwledig, ddim yn gymwys, er eu bod nhw mewn tlodi tanwydd. Felly, o ran y mesuriadau rŷn ni'n eu defnyddio i wybod bod rhywun yn gymwys, beth hoffech chi ei weld o ran hynny mewn unrhyw gynllun yn y dyfodol? Pa fesur ŷch chi'n meddwl fyddai'n fwyaf defnyddiol?

Mae incwm, dwi'n meddwl, yn gorfod bod yn ystyriaeth, ac incwm isel—dim jest bod ar fudd-daliadau. Hefyd, mae'n rhaid i ni annog landlordiaid i weithio efo ni. Dwi'n meddwl, fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn fy mhapur, fod tai sector breifat, efallai, mewn cyflwr gwaeth nag ydy tai cymdeithasol erbyn hyn, ac mae'n anodd gweithio efo landlordiaid achos rydym ni angen eu hannog nhw i wella eu tai a does yna ddim byd ariannol ar hyn o bryd i'w helpu nhw neu yn eu hannog nhw i wneud achos mae tenant yn byw ac, efallai, yn talu rhent ac, efallai, ddim yn prynu pethau eraill. Felly, mae'n rhaid inni weithio efo landlordiaid ac adnabod beth sy'n mynd i weithio iddyn nhw hefyd.

Diolch. Matthew, oes gennych chi rywbeth i'w ychwanegu ar hynny, o ran sut dylai unrhyw gynllun olynol nawr fynd i'r afael â'r angen uniongyrchol rŷn ni'n ei wynebu ar hyn o bryd?

Yes, I think, to add to that, there are a few things, in terms of things like hidden fuel poverty. So, I think you rightly have pointed out the challenge at the moment is particularly intense, like seeing more people self-disconnecting, using or rationing their fuel usage and, of course, that in itself is going to create a bit of a hidden problem. I think it is about ensuring that we have sufficient advice and support available for things like—. I always think of things like housing support grant, for example, as being a good source of funding provision for services to help people on quite a holistic basis, and that, of course, is a tenure-neutral source of funding. That will look at people's, obviously, support needs whilst in the home, but will look more holistically at their lives and things that are impacting their ability to live a good quality of life.

I guess you asked about the shorter term, things that we can do right now. I think that is really tricky; it's a difficult thing to get a grasp on. I think what we do need is a good understanding of the whole-life impact of the new measures we're looking to introduce. So, I think, at the moment, for me, programme design is absolutely vital. If we think about all the new measures, we might think, 'Well, these are all great shiny things we can begin to maybe point people to because we know they work', but, actually, a lot of these technologies are still very much in their infancy and we haven't got enough information about whole-life costs and that sort of stuff. So, again, when we come to giving people good advice, and good, solid advice not just about the here and now, about the current costs, about the current considerations, but what they might be over the next five, 10, 20 years, for example, that's the kind of level of thinking we should be applying to these kinds of problems.

Diolch. Rŷch chi'n sôn yn fanna am gyngor ac yn y blaen, ac mi wnaethoch chi, Elliw, hefyd gyfeirio at sut mae pobl yn dod at y gwasanaethau neu'r cymorth yma. Pa newidiadau fyddech chi eisiau eu gweld o ran y cyngor a'r math o gyfeirio sy'n cael ei ddarparu gan gynllun neu raglen olynol, yn enwedig, efallai, i gefnogi pobl sydd ag anghenion cymhleth? Fe glywon ni, mewn sesiwn dystiolaeth yn gynharach, ynglŷn â phobl yn rhoi'r gorau neu ddim yn cymryd y gefnogaeth neu'r cymorth sydd ei angen oherwydd bod y gofynion arnyn nhw, a'r diffyg cefnogaeth, yn ormodol. Hoffwn i wybod yn ymarferol beth yw'ch barn chi ar hynny. Beth sydd angen ei wella o ran hynny?

Ie, dwi'n meddwl bod fy ymateb i am fod ychydig bach yn gyfyng ar hwn, achos, fel roeddwn i'n sôn, rydyn ni'n cyfeirio pobl ymlaen at Nyth. Yn sicr, mae pobl wedi clywed am Nyth, felly mae wedi bod llwyddiant yn hyrwyddo'r cynllun. Yn anffodus, dwi ddim yn gwybod, fel roeddwn i'n sôn, beth ydy'r broses unwaith y mae pobl yn ffonio i fyny neu gysylltu efo Nyth. Buaswn i'n gobeithio bod yna fodd i'w wneud o'n fwy streamlined. Ond eto, gan fod Nyth yn cael ei weld fel cynllun cenedlaethol, mae wedi cael ei hyrwyddo gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac mae hynna wedi bod yn llwyddiant. Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod neb dwi wedi'i weld yn cwestiynu Nyth, achos maen nhw'n gwybod beth ydy o, ac maen nhw'n gallu cyfeirio ato fo. Mae'n rhaid adeiladu ar hynny. Felly, fedraf i ddim ond rhoi sylwadau o'r safbwynt hwnnw, mae gen i ofn.

Diolch. Matthew, oes gennych chi rywbeth rydych chi eisiau ei ychwanegu?

I would just add I think it's about trying to write up and monitor how that advice helps. To what extent do people's situations change because of that advice? I think it all comes down to that for me, because unless you know that intervention's making a difference in practice, whether it be over the next week, month or year, the value of that advice could be diminished or greater as a result. So, I think it needs to go hand in hand with robust monitoring and evaluation on the back of it.

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Can I now bring in Jane Dodds, who's going to talk about the shape of future programmes based on our experience to date? Jane.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd. Prynhawn da, Elliw, a Matthew hefyd. Dwi eisiau dilyn ymlaen o beth mae Sioned wedi bod yn gofyn, ynglŷn â'r dull ar sail ardal. Dwi'n teimlo tipyn bach yn nerfus yn gofyn i Elliw am hyn, a dweud y gwir, ond, ie, jest i ganolbwyntio ar beth fydd yn effeithiol i'r rhaglen nesaf wrth i ni edrych ymlaen at y dyfodol a rhaglen a fydd yn lle Arbed. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod canolbwyntio ar a gweithio efo awdurdodau lleol yn effeithiol? Hefyd, oes yna bartneriaid eraill y gallem ni eu cynnwys yn y gwaith yn edrych ymlaen? Gaf i ofyn i Elliw yn gyntaf, os gwelwch yn dda?

Diolch. Ie, mae rhai cynlluniau Arbed wedi bod yn gweithio'n agos iawn efo cynghorau a chymdeithasau tai, a dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n wir i ddweud bod yna economies of scale wedi dwyn ffrwyth efo hynny. Beth dwi'n ei feddwl ydy, mewn ardal lle roedd yna glwstwr o dai wedi cael eu hadnabod, mi oedd yna wedyn fodd o weithio efo cymdeithas dai neu gyngor sydd efo'i stoc i gymryd mantais o gynllun lle roedd y cyngor a'r gymdeithas dai yn gallu gwella ansawdd y tai. Yn amlwg, roedd ganddyn nhw eu rhaglen cynllunedig beth bynnag, a doedd o ddim yn tynnu oddi ar hynny; roedd o jest yn cael ei weld fel mwy o gynllun ac yn ffit well o fewn y gymdeithas fod o ddim yn targedu un tŷ neu un ardal benodol, fel petai. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod hynny wedi gweithio yn dda yn y gorffennol.

Dyna un o'r heriau, mewn ffordd: mae'r cymdeithasau tai ar gael, rydyn ni fel awdurdod lleol ar gael i fod yn cynorthwyo, mae gennych chi Citizens Advice, mae gennych chi'r trydydd sector, mae gennym ni Medrwn Môn, eto i gyd, sydd angen bod yn rhan o hwn, achos pan fydd y llythyr yn cyrraedd ac yn dweud potentially fod yna gynllun ar gael, fel roeddwn i'n sôn, y cyngor mae pobl yn ffonio. Rydych chi angen hefyd partneriaid eraill i fod yn ei annog o hefyd, achos mae angen cyrraedd pawb a gwneud y cyfle gorau i bawb fod yn rhan o'r cynllun, a dweud y gwir.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A Matthew hefyd.

I wouldn't add too much to what Elliw has said there. I think the role of housing associations in this kind of thing, even though they're not directly involved, is also really vital because of things like the optimised retrofit programme and all the major developments, or the leaps forward, being done through that, and the opportunity for works being done in an area for those organisations to benefit homes outside of their immediate remits, but nonetheless, have a massive impact on the feel of their local communities and their social obligations as organisations, too.

It would be hard to ignore that the impact of fuel poverty has a massive health impact, but the role here of local health boards is hard to advocate to some extent, because I know, actually, in practice it's really difficult for health boards to engage over and above what is the immediate day-to-day priority of running the health service and, sometimes, rightly so. But, when we think about the health impact of fuel poverty on households, children and then the longer term impact on the health service and ongoing engagement, we know that has a massive effect on services, and therefore the resources they've got to spend within communities.

So, I think really consistent—and I would emphasise the word 'consistent'—health board engagement at a local level is really important. We've seen it to some extent through things like the housing support grant, where health boards recognise there's a real role for them in helping to understand how we better fund things like homelessness prevention services. That can be patchy as well from health board to health board, and I understand why that is: it's not because of culture or, necessarily, individual personalties; it's simply because of an overly spread resource, to put it as clearly as possible.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A gaf i jest ofyn un cwestiwn arall? Jest canolbwyntio ar sgiliau a beth sydd gan gynghorau, ac Elliw, mae'n grêt bod chi yma heddiw o Ynys Môn. Pa fath o sgiliau a phethau sy'n bwysig i'w cael mewn cynghorau ac awdurdodau lleol i ni wneud yn siŵr bod yna raglen sy'n effeithiol yn y dyfodol? Jest ateb byr, os yw hynny'n iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mae gen i ofn bod angen amrediad o sgiliau. Rydych chi eisiau ymgysylltu, rydych chi eisiau hyrwyddo'r cynllun, rydych chi angen cael mynediad at ddata, rydych chi eisiau project manejio fo, rydych chi eisiau riportio. Rydych chi eisiau ychydig bach o bob dim yn rhan o hyn, a dyna oeddwn i'n ddweud: oherwydd diffyg adnodd, diffyg refeniw, mae o'n cael ei weld fel, 'O ia, mae'r cyngor ar gael, mi wnawn nhw wneud hyn', ond mae yna gymaint yn rhan o hyn a chymaint o elfennau gwahanol sydd angen eu project 'manage-io', i bob pwrpas.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Elliw, a Matthew, dwi ddim yn siŵr os ydych chi eisiau ychwanegu at hynny os oes yna rywbeth arall.

A couple of things around things like community engagement. That feels really, really vital in terms of communicating how any future scheme will work and the benefits to those communities. Elliw touched on some of these, like technical skills, looking at future trends in terms of technology, and I think certainly things around evaluation of impact, the circular economy, and how can any programme or how can an authority be confident that their spend is having a really positive effect within their local economy. I think that's really important for the next stage of things.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd.

Diolch. Elliw, you mentioned earlier that the most energy-inefficient homes are largely in the private sector because quite a lot of work has gone on with social housing. How do you think we can encourage private landlords to tackle fuel poverty amongst their tenants?

Rydyn ni'n ffodus o gael Rent Smart Wales a buaswn i'n annog bod unrhyw gynllun i'r dyfodol yn cydweithio'n agos iawn efo Rent Smart Wales. Yn aml, rydyn ni'n gallu gwneud cysylltiad fel awdurdod lleol efo landlordiaid. Rydyn ni'n cynnal fforymau, ond fel y gallwch chi ddychmygu, y landlordiaid sydd eisiau bod yn rhan, ac efallai sydd efo diddordeb mewn gwella'r sefyllfa i denantiaid, sy'n rhan o'r rheini. Beth dydyn ni ddim yn gallu ei gael ydy'r landlordiaid yna sydd yn rhentu tai ac yn codi rhent yn uwch, ac efallai ddim yn poeni wedyn sut y bydd tenantiaid yn talu eu biliau, ac ati. Eto, dwi'n meddwl bod yna le i ni fod yn hyrwyddo'r cynllun, ac mae'n rhaid cael budd i'r landlord. Os nad ydy'r landlord yn gweld budd o wella eiddo, yna dydw i ddim yn gweld pam fuasen nhw eisiau cymryd rhan mewn cynllun. Ac o fy mhrofiad i, beth dwi wedi ei weld ydy ein bod ni'n targedu'r person sy'n byw yn y tŷ, yn hytrach nag efallai weithiau hefyd targedu'r person sydd biau'r tŷ.

Matthew, did you want to add anything before I ask Ken Skates to come in?

Yes, I think the private rented sector is a particular challenge. When we think about the changes that have happened in the last few years to that sector alone, they've been pretty substantial. When you consider things like the new fire safety legislation, rightly coming in, that's going to mean massive changes to how different landlords upgrade their homes, make them safe and so on, and that is completely right. But then, when we lay on top of that things like the need to make their homes more sustainable as well, I can understand why, as a private landlord, you might feel a bit daunted by that kind of obligation, going forward.

I think that what we do need to do is to make it really clear what kind of support is out there for private landlords. I think the local authorities have a really important role to play through private landlord forums, ensuring that there is an ongoing dialogue there, and that landlords feel heard about the operational issues that they are experiencing, as well as remaining really informed about what kind of support is out there, going forward.

I think also, when we think about the optimised retrofit programme, for example, it's focusing on social housing at the moment, but social housing has been subject to the Welsh housing quality standard, a few decades-worth of investment, really. So, the PRS is starting off on a footing that is much further behind. I'm not saying that that is right or wrong, but I think when we consider the cost of some of the work that may need to be undertaken in the private rented sector, it's likely to be reasonably high in some of these homes that were built pre 1919.

I think then, finally, it's about thinking about tenant empowerment too. Because I think that Elliw is right, it's not necessarily about always targeting specific tenants, but tenants have got an ability to get their landlord to act. So, when you think about the renting homes Act and the health and housing safety rating system, one of the category 1 hazards there is around excess cold. You could report that to your local authority. You'd go through a number of processes and you might end up at a housing tribunal, different enforcement action from the local authority. All that, however, takes a level of competence and a level of understanding, and it's not straightforward. So, I wouldn't say that that's necessarily something where you would say to someone, 'Well, definitely go off and do that', because it isn't that easy. But it is about also giving tenants that easier-to-understand information about the ways in which they might be able to challenge their landlord and prompt some independent and quite robust action to ensure that there's an ability there to improve their situation.

Okay. I think that Ken Skates wanted to pursue this very subject.

Thanks, Chair, yes. A bit of a technical question on what would be required, really, in terms of support for local authorities if minimum energy efficiency standards were to be changed to EPC level C or B. And is it even viable to enforce—is it possible to enforce—those standards against, particularly, EPC level B?

I think that you need to indicate—. Okay. Go ahead.

Dwi'n meddwl buasai'n rhaid inni ddod â fo i mewn drwy Rent Smart Wales neu rywbeth, gan fod gennym ni drefn ar hyn o bryd lle mae'n rhaid i landlord gofrestru. Buasai'n rhaid inni edrych i ehangu sut rydym ni'n gwneud gorfodaeth, a wedyn sut rydym ni wedyn yn cydweithio efo iechyd yr amgylchedd gan, yn aml iawn, nhw fuasai efallai'n gweithredu wedyn ar hynny. Ond, i mi, gan fod yna system Rent Smart Wales yn barod, ac mae yna ddull o gofrestru, mae honno'n ffordd o orfodi.

Just to add to that, I think that's a real challenge for local authorities in terms of—. If local authorities were to do it directly themselves through things like environmental health, that would be a massive challenge to regulate and oversee. There are some obligations already through things like, as I just mentioned, the health housing safety rating system. But then, with the changes to the minimum energy efficiency standards, that could add another layer of operational obligation, which might be really hard to meet in practice.

Okay. Okay, thanks. And in terms of local authorities again, what role do you think there might be for councils to engage with private landlords in explaining the benefits of improving the fabric and energy efficiency of properties? And is there, again, the resource there? Is it viable for local authorities to do this work?

I think that, for our members who do work in local authorities, there is variation in how that engagement works at a local level. Some have really vibrant landlord forums. Some have others that aren't as well attended. Others do different kinds of engagement to suit their local needs. I think what is a challenge is that those forums are made up of a range of landlords, often from those who own one or two properties to those who own larger portfolios and quite often think in very different business terms and have different resources behind them. I think, from our experience of engaging with those forums on things like increasing the awareness of what housing support grant is and how you might support people to maintain their tenancy and that sort of stuff, there's a real variation in people's enthusiasm for hearing those messages sometimes, and I think local authorities would need to be armed with the right evidence and information. But, even then, there's the question of what happens if landlords don't want to engage. They've got that ability as autonomous businesses not to do that.

And is there a correlation, do you know, Matthew, between levels of engagement and then subsequently, if you like, the number of proprieties that are owned by private landlords that are brought up to certain standards, better standards, in terms of energy efficiency? Is that engagement working?

I haven't got that sense, I'm afraid. It's a good question, but I haven't got that information to hand, I'm afraid.

No problem. Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Okay, thank you very much. Tom Giffard wants to come in and delve down a bit deeper into rural fuel poverty.

Yes. Thanks, Chair. I just wonder to what extent you both think the current programme reflects the needs of rural households that are fuel poor and whether there is any specific support that you feel should be made available to meet those challenges.

Dwi'n meddwl bod gweithio o fewn ardal wledig yn her yn ei hun. Mae'r tai yn dai unigol, efallai yn hŷn ac yn dipyn gwahanol i beth fuasech chi'n ei gael mewn tref neu hyd yn oed pentref. Felly, mae o'n anodd iawn targedu, ac efallai ei fod yn anodd cael cynllun sydd yn area based. So, felly, dyna lle mae angen gwaith pellach i'w weld, os ydy rhywun yn targedu fuel poverty, beth mae hynny'n ei olygu mewn ardal wledig. Achos mae yna gymaint o bethau wedyn yn effeithio ar berson sy'n byw mewn ardal wledig. Mae trafnidiaeth, mae mynediad i wasanaethau cyhoeddus i gyd yn dod i fewn iddo fo.

Felly, fel sir sydd yn gallu bod yn wledig yn Ynys Môn, ac wedi cael Arbed mewn ardal wledig, dwi'n meddwl y buasai fo'n deg i ddweud ei fod wedi bod yn her. Achos dydych chi ddim yn gwybod beth ydy oed yr adeilad tan eich bod chi'n mynd yno i'w weld o a gwneud asesiadau llawn ohono fo, nac ychwaith yn gwybod beth ydy arferion y person sy'n byw yna. Achos efallai fod arferion pobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn wahanol iawn i rywun sy'n byw mewn tref a sut maen nhw'n defnyddio eu cartref. Felly, mae yna heriau mawr, dwi'n meddwl, yn wynebu ardal wledig, ond eto mae yna fodd i weithio efo ardaloedd ac i weithio efo mudiadau wedyn i annog pobl i gymryd rhan.

Just to add to that really briefly, I think the additional operational issues around accessibility and availability of contractors and services, and essentially the potential for increased costs in those areas too, when we think about how the programme has maximum impact in rural settings, where you might need a greater level of financial intervention—. Our rural members, at the moment, when we look at supply chain issues, there is a real issue in rural areas where those costs are just so substantially higher and a real challenge around lowering the carbon footprint of activity generally.

Thank you. Coming back on those costs, I'm not expecting a specific figure, but I'm just wondering about the levels of additional funding that would be needed to bring some of those inefficient off-grid households to a more efficient standard.

I think, not that I'm—. This isn't our evidence, but certainly the report from Cardiff University, which looked at the rural narrative, along with a few other ones, suggested a capital cost of around £40,000 to £66,000 for upgrading homes in more rural areas. And that was based on substantial improvements to clean energy, for example, to infrastructure more generally. So, these things definitely go hand in hand.

We've just commissioned Sero, the future generations commissioner and a design collaborative to undertake a piece of research around improving how environmentally friendly the private rented sector is across Wales, and part of that's going to be looking at modelling of different housing archetypes in different areas and looking at things like costings and what that would look like and how you'd achieve different levels of improvement alongside the other aspect of improving household energy use. So, it's not overly useful right now, but we'll certainly have that report ready to go in May, and we'd certainly be able to share that in detail with the committee when it comes out.

Thank you, Chair.

[Inaudible.]—an issue that we mentioned in an earlier session, which was around the fact that you're not eligible for Nest if you've got a business registered at the place where you live. Well, every farmer, nearly every farmer, will be living on the job, so that means none of those people have been eligible for support to tackle elderly properties, in the main, that are very difficult to heat. How much has that, Elliw, been an issue for your constituents?

Buaswn i'n dychmygu ei fod o, ac mae'n rhaid i mi gyfaddef, doeddwn i ddim wedi sylwi bod hynny'n amod o Nyth. Fel roeddwn i'n sôn, rydym ni'n hyrwyddo'r cynllun; rydym ni'n dweud ei fod o ar gael i bobl, ac unwaith maen nhw mewn wedyn yn y system, doedden ni ddim yn gwybod os oeddwn nhw'n cael eu taflu allan achos doedden nhw ddim yn cyrraedd y meini prawf. Felly, ydy, yn sicr, mae'n mynd i effeithio.

Okay. Thank you. Can I just hand back to Sarah Murphy now?

Thank you, both. Thank you, Chair. Just to dig in a little bit more about the equality and social justice considerations from your perspective. So, just to kick off, we heard earlier on that some people—. You know, you have these works done, but there's also a cost to having these works done. For example, maybe you have to have your living room redecorated after the work is done. So, what do you think about factoring that into the next programme to help address financial barriers to entry that some people might feel over that? If I could start with you, Elliw.

Ie, dwi'n siŵr ei fod o wedi bod yn reit heriol i rai pobl gael mesurau, ac os ydy o—. Roeddwn i'n gweld ymateb un bod yn rhaid clirio ystafell neu rywbeth cyn i waith ddigwydd, ac, yn amlwg, mae yna effaith wedyn ar ôl i waith gymryd lle. Mi fuasai angen efallai ystyried hynny achos mae hynny wedyn yn annog y person i gymryd rhan, ond wedyn, os ydy rhywun yn byw mewn tŷ preifat, cyfrifoldeb pwy fydd o wedyn i beintio? Fuasech chi'n disgwyl i landlord fod yn gwneud hynny? Ac, felly, ydy'r anogaeth yn eistedd hefo'r landlord wedyn i fod yn peintio, neu ydych chi'n rhoi voucher i'r tenant, a'u bod nhw'n cael peintio fo wedyn fel maen nhw eisiau? Dwi'n meddwl bod yna lot o permutations mewn rhywbeth felly. Ac mae'n rhaid mynd â'r person drwy'r broses hefyd, a dweud beth sydd ar gael a beth sydd ddim ar gael. Mae hefyd dweud beth dydych chi ddim yn gallu ei wneud yr un mor bwysig â dweud beth rydych chi'n gallu ei wneud.

Thank you. That's really interesting, yes. Matthew, what do you think?

Yes, I've nothing to add. I would agree with Elliw. I think defining those roles and responsibilities for that process would be really important.

Brilliant. Thank you. And also would you—? I know we've touched on it a little bit including the rural, but could you just share any other examples that you've seen, where you think that certain types of homes are not being supported under the current schemes, and also how you think any successor schemes could better advance equality and social justice? I'll come to you first this time, Matthew.

It's a really good question. I think, in terms of the equality and social justice angle, one of the things we put in our evidence was around that we're really passionate about introducing a right to adequate housing in Wales. We think it's absolutely vital, and we could be a leader in the world in how this looks in practice. And there's nothing holding us back from that. And I think we were really welcoming of that, in the Welsh Labour-Plaid Cymru co-operation agreement, that took centre stage from a housing perspective and a commitment to a White Paper within that. And I think the way this links to what we're looking at today is: when we think about adequacy, what does that mean in practice? How does it play out in the letter of the law and in people's homes? What does 'adequate' mean to us? And I'm sure we'd all agree that it would mean a well-heated, efficient home that not only heats well but also cools well and copes with the rigours of the weather more generally. So, I think that is one of the ways in which we'd want to see some of the inequalities in the housing system looked at more generally.

I think it's also about looking at how fuel poverty impacts on other rights that we look at really regularly, like the rights of the child, for example. There's a real opportunity to have some crossover, looking at the positive effect as well as the more negative aspects of that as well, recognising that there are deep inequalities resting within all of this. When we think about the cross-tenure angle, where, in the private rented sector, single mothers are more likely to live there, and young carers, asylum seekers, refugees—there's a real range of people who are going to be more negatively affected by potential work not being done, and some of those homes are going to be left behind, and these people are sometimes the most marginalised within society. So, I think it's absolutely right that we have quite a sharp and determined focus on this, and, certainly when we think about the operational delivery of any future programme—that monitoring, reporting, data collection—that there's at least an emphasis on this, even though I know it's always difficult in practice to get that granular information, but organisations and services need to have a pretty sharp focus on this as a priority.

Thank you so much. Elliw, did you want to come in on this as well?

Ie, jest ychydig o bwyntiau o ran yr ochr ymarferol. Fel roeddwn i'n sôn, os ydy rhywun yn cael ei gyfeirio mewn i Nyth gan y cyngor, dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod beth ydy allbwn hynny wedyn. Felly, dydyn ni ddim yn gwybod beth sy'n digwydd, mewn ffordd. Ac Arbed yr un fath—weithiau roeddem ni ddim ond yn cael gwybod os oedd rhywun ddim yn rhan o gynllun, ac roedden nhw'n dod atom ni, eisiau gwybod pam nad oedden nhw'n rhan o gynllun. Wel, eto, doedden ni ddim yn gwybod pam nad oedden nhw'n gallu bod. Ac os ydych chi'n edrych arno fo o social justice perspective, fel roeddem ni'n sôn gynnau, mae tai preifat yn cael eu heffeithio fwyaf, ac weithiau does gan berson ddim dewis ond rhentu, oherwydd eu sefyllfa nhw, ac felly, by default, maen nhw am fod efallai mewn tai israddol, sydd am fod yn oerach, heb yr incwm yna i allu eu cefnogi nhw. Ac fel roedd Matt yn sôn, efallai fod asylum seekers, refugees, pobl ar incwm is yn tueddu i fynd wedyn i'r sector breifat achos nad ydy tai cymdeithasol neu brynu tŷ yn opsiwn ar y pryd.

Thank you, both, so much. Thank you, Chair.

Ken Skates, you had some further questions on how we're going to shape the next programme.

Thanks, Chair. First of all, I'd welcome any views on whether the successor programme or programmes should operate separately, or whether there should be one programme that can cover all strands of the work that needs to be carried out in terms of decarbonisation, energy insulation and tackling fuel poverty. Who would like to go first—if either of you do have a view on whether there should be one programme, or perhaps two working in a parallel, complementary way?

I think it depends on what the purpose of the programme is to some extent. So, I think decarbonisation and fuel poverty can go hand in hand, but they don't always. We know that for sure. We know that plenty of people could be in fuel poverty but living in quite efficient homes. There are all sorts of good case studies around. When you create a passive home, for example, if people don't use them correctly, energy bills are much higher than expected. So, I think, to some extent, it depends on what the intention of the scheme is in the first place. I think the risk with creating more than one programme is the message could be diluted and difficult, certainly, to market and understand two schemes. When we think if the overall aim is to make sure the public really understand and grasp what the scheme is aimed at, having one overall brand, to me, feels really sensible. And actually, having some clear messaging under that would just enhance that in practice. But I think that does require careful thought. I'm on the fence a little bit because I can see it both ways, to some extent.

Yes, definitely. For what it's worth, I think a single scheme probably makes sense, but with very clear strands—having that single gateway for entry into enquiries, and then for the professionals to be able to deal with those enquiries, rather than expect the customer to know the entire system and then to navigate through various programmes. Any other views? A counter-view at all? No. Okay. Thank you.

In terms of the move towards greener technologies, could a successor programme or programmes be utilised to promote new and emerging green technologies as well as, obviously, focusing on dealing with fuel poverty?

Ie, dwi'n credu y buasai hynny'n gallu gweithio, ond beth fydd yn rhaid cydnabod ydy y bydd y costau'n uwch, ac felly efallai fydd nifer y mesurau sy'n cael eu rhoi i mewn yn llai, felly. Roedden ni'n sôn gynnau am beth ydy'r gost o wneud gwaith mewn ardal wledig, a hynny, efallai, ar fesurau rŵan; dŷn ni ddim yn sôn am air-source heat pumps a phob math o fesurau i'r dyfodol. Felly, mi fydd y gost yn llawer iawn uwch.

I think, for me, there's too much crossover there with the optimised retrofit programme. I think that that, as a programme, is intended to test and trial and look at new ways, asking, 'If you were to walk up to a house, how would you make this home more efficient?' We've got to look at expanding the learning from that into the private rented sector and to householders as well. Obviously, I understand why the priorities are there around social housing and completely support that, really, in practice. But as we go forward, unless that learning is disseminated more widely and it's understood how we apply it more widely, there's a greater risk that we'll create increased gulfs between people living in different types of homes and different tenures, and we don't want that; we want that learning, that good technical understanding and expertise to be shared really well and I'm not convinced that doing it through the Warm Homes programme in a different kind of guise is completely sensible. I think it's always worth thinking about, within the programme and its operations, at what stages do different things happen and those things won't always go hand in hand. So, I mean, you might look to do a boiler change more than once between now and 2050, for example, but you might only want to do substantial work to the structure of the home once. So, sometimes it's around timeliness and that sort of thing, too. And that kind of learning is already being well engrained in the ORP itself. So, it's not just around the methods, but around how you apply them over a lifespan and what the timeliness looks like, to reduce disruption to occupants and make sure that we have maximum effect from what we put into the homes in the first place. So, there'd be no point doing a fabric-first approach, looking at insulation, unless you also look at the roof, for example, but it would be fine to do that if you didn't also look at the boilers, if that makes sense.

Absolutely, yes. I'm just going to ask really briefly whether you would agree that we don't have sufficient numbers of people with the right skills to be able to deliver a future programme at present. If so, what needs to be done in order to develop that pipeline of skilled people ready to take advantage of this area of work? It may not be something that either of you have really considered in great detail. I'm thinking in particular of the regional skills partnerships. Do they reflect in their plans the need to increase the workforce in this area?

We're waiting on the detail of the net-zero plan—I can't remember its exact name—that the regional skills partnerships have looked at and gone out to industry and spoken about. So, we'll be interested in the learning from that. I guess, one of the things we've spoken about a lot as an organisation is a workforce strategy for the sector, which is that but in a different kind of guise.

When we speak to our members, we know that there's a real challenge around skills, which is actually being able to look at what kind of new methods are coming out and what is the shelf life for those skills. So, if people were to be trained, how long would that training remain relevant for? It's also about what technology and what level of investment to make in the workforce. It's really testing. And I guess, today, I'm reflecting more from a housing association angle, but when you think about life out in the industry or within private sector development, that's probably even more challenging in and of itself. So, I think what we do need is some good forward thinking around what kinds of sources of technology we're going to use more regularly and why, and having a real planned approach to training the workforce around that through good, solid apprenticeships. Because one of the downfalls with the existing programme has been that businesses have been encouraged to look at things like apprenticeships and haven't had certainty around the business or the level of activity or what they could expect in return, and therefore, perhaps understandably, have been resistant of taking that on board in really meaningful ways. So, I appreciate that that, sometimes, isn't easy to do in practice, but there needs to be a more solid way to give businesses that reassurance, so that there's a more, I guess, grass-roots approach to developing that expertise at a real local level.

Okay, great. Thank you. And that covers it, Chair.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much to Elliw Llyr and Matthew Kennedy. We will send you a transcript of your contributions, and if there's anything that has been misheard or misinterpreted from what you've said, please do use that opportunity to correct the transcript. And we'd like to thank you very much indeed, both of you, for your contributions—both really useful contributions. Thank you very much indeed.

Diolch.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

And finally, the last item on the public agenda is to note the correspondence we've had from the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, which was the letter she shared that she'd written to the Minister for Social Justice on the budget that she thinks that her office requires. So, are you happy to note that paper? Thank you very much.

I'd now like to suggest we move into private session. So, I wondered if the sound operator could let us know once we are in private session.