Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Croeso nôl i'r pwyllgor. Rŷn ni'n symud ymlaen at y drydedd eitem, wrth gwrs, sef i glywed yr ail sesiwn dystiolaeth ar waith y pwyllgor ar gysylltedd digidol yng Nghymru, ac rŷn ni'n croesawu panel newydd o dystion. Felly, gwnaf i ofyn ichi efallai jest i gyflwyno'ch hunain, eich teitl a phwy rŷch chi'n ei gynrychioli. Fe ddechreuwn ni ar y chwith gyda Ben.

Bore da. My name is Ben Allwright, and I'm chief executive officer of Ogi.

Elinor Williams, pennaeth materion rheoleiddiol i Ofcom yng Nghymru.

And I'm Connie Dixon. I'm the partnership director for Openreach in Wales.

Grêt. Diolch, a chroeso i'r tri ohonoch chi. Awn ni'n syth i gwestiynau, at Huw.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. If anybody had said to us, this far into the roll-out of broadband and hyperconnectivity or whatever that we'd still have the situation where Ofcom estimates that 15,000 or 1 per cent of premises cannot get a decent broadband service, a 10 Mbps download speed, from either fixed or fixed wireless networks, people would be amazed. Should we be using public money as a point of principle to connect these premises, and if so, how? That's a big one to start with.

Elinor, wyt ti eisiau dechrau?

Ydw, dwi'n hapus i fynd gyntaf. Gaf i ddiolch i'r pwyllgor am y gwahoddiad?

Thank you very much for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here. I think it's very important to say at the outset how far we've come in terms of digital connectivity. I think you heard from the first panel that the topography and the geography of Wales makes it very difficult to deliver and to connect some of the most rural of places. It's an engineering challenge, and I think some of my colleagues beside me here would be able to tell you a little bit more about that. But, it's complex and it's very, very costly. And I think the premises that are left, the 1 per cent that you mentioned, are in the most rural and in the most difficult to reach areas.

But I think, if we consider where we were five years ago, we've come a very long way. Superfast broadband is at 96 per cent in Wales, and we will publish an update on our 'Connected Nations' report at the beginning of next week, which will show a further improvement in availability of full fibre and in gigabit-capable networks. And the good thing is that, currently, Wales on full fibre is keeping up with the UK average, and that is excellent news. And that is down to private sector investment and activity, and it's supported by a positive policy environment from the UK Government, set out in its strategic statement of priorities, and a positive regulatory environment from Ofcom. So, I think given where we are, there's a vast improvement in availability, but we just need to keep going in order to get to that final few per cent. I think public intervention is going to be essential in order to connect those final few per cents.

If you make the comparison with some of the other utilities that we have—water, natural gas—availability has improved in urban areas; they've been rolled out in urban areas first, and then they get to the most rural, most difficult hard-to-reach areas. That's no different with telecommunications. We've seen it with 3G, 4G, we're seeing it now with 5G, and the same is true for broadband. It's just the way the market works, and I think if you compare what's happening with telecommunications with digital terrestrial television, we got to 97.8 per cent in Wales and we stopped, and the decision was made that it was too costly to go any further. And it was said that all those that weren't able to get DTT had to go to satellite. It's a decision for Governments at the end of the day.

Diolch yn fawr. Okay, we'll go on to Janet then.

Thank you. If money was no object, which technological solutions are most appropriate to connect that 1 per cent of premises that can't get decent broadband?

If money was no object—[Laughter.]—I would suggest that fibre is the most, basically, futureproof, most resilient, more secure, most flexible technology around, but money isn't no object. But, if it were, we would establish a fibre connection to every single premises. But, in the absence of endless pots of money, there are other solutions. We heard the panel earlier talk about things like low earth orbit satellites, we've talked about wireless technologies, 5G. So, there are alternatives around and those technologies improve all of the time, and they're marching ahead quite rapidly now. Of course, ultimately, most of us connect to the internet wirelessly anyway, so it's not as if we're not used to the idea that we connect wirelessly to get broadband services.

So, those technologies are improving. They will fulfil a role in the most difficult-to-reach properties, and we shouldn't pooh-pooh them or consider them too inferior; they really can deliver fantastic services when deployed in the right way. It would be great, wouldn't it, if we could roll out fibre to everyone, but I think we will be left with a very, very difficult 0.5 per cent, 1 per cent where we will be forced to look at alternative technologies, and they will perform adequately in most applications.

So, the question I asked to the earlier panel was: how do we actually get it through to those people who really do feel hard done by because their neighbours have got it and they haven't? How can we empower those few?

It's a bit difficult, isn't it? When we've held up full fibre as the panacea, the only solution, anything less just won't do, it's going to be difficult to re-educate the consumers that, actually, a fantastic connection via 5G is all that they will need, and it will serve their needs well.

But how do we get that out to those communities?

It's an education—.

Because it is difficult when they come to me, even, you know.

Yes. We talked earlier, again, about the role of the local authority and local government in making people aware, and making available sources of information to help people on that journey. A lot of people need a lot of education about broadband, the benefits it can bring, how they can access it, the different technologies, and I do think that the local authority—. If you look at Pembrokeshire, for example, there's a fantastic example of a local authority that have made it, really, a part of their modus operandi that they will go out and educate, inform and support communities in accessing broadband in the best possible way; they're a great example.

Connie, do you want to come in on this, or maybe the previous point about the 1 per cent as well?

Yes, just to echo what Ben said. Full fibre is the gold standard; if money was no object, that should be what we would be aspiring to provide for everybody, but the reality is that that final 0.5 per cent, 1 per cent will be really challenging, and it's going to require industry, it's going to require Government coming together to find out what the solution will be, and it absolutely won't be one size fits all. It will be a combination of fixed, wireless, satellite and other brilliant technologies that will be developed over the next few years as well. So, just to, really, echo what Ben said: if money is no object, we know that full fibre is absolutely what we should be striving for, however, we do need to be realistic and come together to look at what are the right things to be able to try and connect everybody across Wales with a broadband connection.

I have to be honest, I've only learnt today that every authority has a digital officer, so you can bet your life who I'm going to be contacting. Be warned, if they're watching now.

Okay, thank you, Janet. Huw.

It's actually on that point. I don't think I'll be untypical amongst Members of the Senedd or Members of Parliament or even local councillors who, when they're approached by people who say, 'We can't get the same broadband speed as somebody down the road', or, 'We've got absolutely appalling broadband', somewhere in the south Wales Valleys or in rural Wales, we will tend to contact the people that we have on the panel today and say, 'What can we do?' You and the previous panel have directed us very strongly towards local authorities. Can I just ask you how confident are you that—not just Pembrokeshire or Powys or whatever, but every local authority, the Merthyrs, the Blaenaus, the RCTs, the Bridgends, as well as the Cardiffs, and so on—if we directed them to the local authority, they'd be getting that support to empower local communities to devise the right solutions for either their individual property or their street or their neighbourhood? How confident are you? Because both sets of panels have pointed strongly to them.

Shall I? If you want me to answer that, first of all, from my experience, that kind of relationship with local authorities between the infrastructure builders—. Because if you think about it at that starting point: where are our plans? So, Openreach, we've announced that we have got ambitions to connect 25 million homes and businesses across the UK by 2026, and we've shared over 250 exchange areas that are publicly available where we intend to roll full fibre across Wales, and people can go and see on the website where that is.

So, the starting point is: where do we intend to build? Because that relationship with the local authority is absolutely key. To go as far as we can in that build, you have to have the relationship with the local authority, because it's a huge engineering feat. So, it's about communicating with the local authority so they know what's coming, so that they're prepared, and then obviously in turn they can help to share that message with whether it's communities or councillors around what is available and what will be happening.

But, there's another point as well around that adoption of service. So, we talked about 30 per cent of Wales already having access to full fibre. From our perspective, you're looking at 1 in 4 currently on that service. So, it's also as much around letting them know what's already there. It isn't an automatic upgrade, so they do have to shop around for the right package for them for their uses. But, it's about, first of all, making sure that they know what's available now and what's to come.

So, absolutely, the relationships with local authorities are really key, and we find them extremely supportive. I think there's definitely more we can do in how do we support the roll-out of broadband to help us go as far as we can with that commercial investment, so that then any public money can absolutely be directed to that final 1 per cent or final few.

Elinor.

Just accepting what Connie has just said, but I think everybody has got a part to play in making sure that the final few per cent get connected. I don't think it's the responsibility of one organisation or these digital champions in the local authorities. Ofcom has a part to play. Janet mentions some of the terminology we use. That terminology needs to be consistent across everybody's use of it, but people need to be aware of it, what it means, what technology is available and where and how to go about getting it. We mention fixed wireless access, low earth orbit satellite—you know, it's terminology we use every day. I don't expect the likes of my mum and dad to be able to know what it means. I think there is a very, very important role of communication across a lot of these strands and, in that, I think everybody has a role to play.

One area of communication that we've grappled with recently, and we're coming on to another terminology that we're getting more familiar with, I think, is the subject of the next question from Joyce.

It is, and it's about any concerns about the impact of the move to voice over internet protocol. What do people truly understand about that, what do they know about it, and whose job is it to let them know?

Who wants to start with that one?

Ultimately, from a consumer perspective, you want the switch to be pretty transparent, really. Ultimately, it is sort of an inevitable progression of technology, like we've moved from one style of Wi-Fi to the next style of Wi-Fi. Ultimately, you want it to be pretty much invisible to the consumer and for the service to continue to provide the same features, benefits, provide the same social care services that they can currently get through things like red button services. You want the service, really, to provide exactly what they had before, and I think the terminology, even, of VoIP is just confusing. Ultimately, it's a phone line, and it's a phone line that's carried over a different traffic method, but it delivers the same thing to the same devices, providing the same services. The trouble is it doesn't always do that, and the important thing is to make sure that consumers are aware if it requires battery back-up, those kind of things, that those things are really thought about when they take it; if they don't have an alternative phone service, that's really considered when the operator provides them the service as an alternative to their traditional phone line. So, there's a certain degree of education around it, but, ultimately, I think it's a natural progression of technology.

Okay. Janet just wants to come in with something before we go on to Connie.

Yes. In the last two or three years, I've been fighting for every local community in terms of when BT have tried to take away their little red phone box and things or make it non-workable. Wouldn't you agree that, until this particular system really gets to grips with the batteries, we can't have situations where rural communities are completely isolated? And, for some, that phone box, it provides assurance. So, if anyone's listening from BT, leave those red phone boxes.

I think the issue of copper switch-off and when it should happen is really one that Elinor—

Yes, I was going to ask maybe that you could reflect on that as you answer the broader question.

Yes, so it's the—. The switch-off, the migration to voice over IP, is an industry-led initiative. Essentially, the old copper network has come to the end of its life, it needs to be upgraded, and, of course, as more premises are connected to full fibre, the telephone line won't work over the new fibre network, so it needs to be upgraded, and we need to make this migration.

From Ofcom's perspective, we are doing a lot of stakeholder engagement at the moment, making sure that the message is communicated. And from our perspective, we are monitoring the migration, and there are specific sets of regulations and guidance for industry to follow to make sure that the migration happens as smoothly as possible. I'm sure you'll be aware of the fact that BT has paused its migration recently. That's not true for all communications providers, but it's, again, making sure that the message about the migration is communicated, and that mitigations are put in place. So, for the most vulnerable of consumers, the communication providers have to provide battery back-up in the event of a power cut, and that battery back-up has to last for an hour. Our research and data suggests that an hour is sufficient to enable consumers to make calls to family, to the emergency services, of course, and the battery back-up has to exist in order to provide, to make sure that that is okay for consumers. In the absence of that, they have to provide a mobile service on a workable network in the consumer's particular location.

Diolch, Elinor. Connie.

Just on that very point, can I ask another question?

Well, let Connie just respond to the first question first, and then we'll come back to you, Joyce.

Again, really just to echo what Elinor said, it's about industry supporting this and making it as seamless as possible, and particularly looking at what we can do for those more vulnerable groups. So, it is the service providers' responsibility to engage and work with the consumers, but, at Openreach, we're absolutely supporting that, and have been for many years in preparation for the change, particularly working with organisations like Age UK, Citizens Advice, around that messaging and preparations, to ensure that it is as seamless as possible.

Okay, thank you. Back to you, Joyce, thanks.

It is an industry-led initiative, and I accept that things need to progress. But who's paying the price for it? Is it the consumer or the industry that's going to benefit, because, ultimately, our job is to ensure parity for both? So, it's just a fairly simple question to which I'd like the answer.

I think everybody will benefit at the end of the day, because it will be a better technology. It has to happen, because the old network has reached the end of its life—it's not going to work any more in some time. And it will deliver benefits in better quality of technology for consumers. But, as I said previously, I think we just need to make sure that the transition, the migration, happens as smoothly as possible, and with as least disruption to consumers, especially the most vulnerable in society. A couple of weeks ago, Ofcom hosted a stakeholder engagement event with the health sector—one of the sectors that we've identified as being possibly one of the most vulnerable. So, some of the telecare personal alarms that people have, consumers need to make their communications provider aware of the fact that those alarms are connected to their telephone line, so that the communications provider takes that into account when migrating the consumer.

Yes, very important. Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you, Joyce. We move on to Delyth.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da i chi i gyd.

There can be huge gaps in broadband speed availability in lots of areas, especially if we compare with the UK average. And the biggest gap will be in 100 Mbps connections and faster. So, what do you think the impact of those gaps are, materially, and how can those gaps be closed, please?

Who wants to go first? I'm looking at either Ben or Connie.

Well, shall I start, and then I'll hand over to you, Ben?

Yes, go for it.

Yes. Connie.

I think probably our responses are going to be very similar. In terms of closing that gap, there is a very real roadmap to doing that across Wales when you look at both Openreach, and other investments from the likes of Ogi. We have plans to roll out full fibre, which will certainly exceed that 100 Mbps gap that you talked about. So, now, and over the very coming years, there will be a huge increase in that availability around full fibre, to large, large parts of Wales. So, that's talking about a gigabit—and, not to get technical, but it far exceeds that 100 Mbps. So, by having that full fibre roll-out plan, as I said, across Wales, we intend to upgrade a large, large part of Welsh premises, through commercial investment alone, to get to those speeds of a gigabit through full fibre.

Okay. Well, let's see how similar your answer is, Ben. [Laughter.]

Aside from those areas that have Virgin Media coverage, which tends to be the larger cities, the majority of Wales has got copper technology, which has been in the ground for many, many years and has served us well. But ultimately, squeezing superfast and higher and higher speeds out of that technology has been a challenge. You've done a great job—the superfast programme is very, very successful. But, ultimately, what we see with copper technology is a very variable service experience, depending on where you live. So, if you live a long way from an exchange, your service experience is still generally much poorer than if you live closer to an exchange or a cabinet. So, whilst we're still living on that copper technology, and that's the primary technology, we're going to see these very large differences in the quality of service and the speeds that people can access.

To Connie's point, we're rolling out fibre—that's the plan, that's what we all want to do. Openreach have big plans, Ogi have big plans, other operators have plans too. So, we want to put the fibre infrastructure in. Competition is driving everybody to accelerate—there are more and more operators entering the market. We're going to bring that amazing experience to everybody, and everybody, hopefully, will have equity of access to many hundreds of megabits as a minimum—up to a gigabit, generally, and beyond. So, we're going to close those gaps; that's the plan. We're going to close those gaps. We're passionate about rolling out fibre; fibre will get to all but the last 1 or so per cent, probably. And that's the plan, and that's what we want to work on together. And where it's commercially tricky, that's where subsidies and Government support can come in and help to close that gap faster.

Ocê. Elinor, rhywbeth i'w ychwanegu?

Na, dim byd. Dim byd mwy, na.

Ocê. Grêt. Iawn. Huw.

Could I just define the terms here? When we say roll-out of full fibre to 1 per cent, that sounds absolutely brilliant. Are we talking about full fibre as in fibre to box or fibre to premises? Can we just be clear?

Full fibre to premises—

Right to the premises.

So, people have used 'fibre' before as a bit of a misleading technology. But now, when we talk about full fibre, I think we're all in agreement that we mean to every single front door.

Lovely. Happy days.

Yes, full fibre optic from the exchange to the premises, and no reliance on copper.

Thank you.

Ocê. Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Janet.

What needs to be done by stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, Ofcom and broadband providers to help people get online where broadband options exist?

Yes, because we've spoken a lot about where it doesn't exist, but, of course, it does exist in some places and people are still not taking it up.

Yes, I think—. I mentioned earlier that superfast broadband availability in Wales is now at 96 per cent. If you look at our December 'Connected Nations' report, take-up is only at around 63 per cent/64 per cent. There is a big gap and it comes back to my communications point earlier: we need to be able to tell people what is available to them where, and how to go about getting it. And I think everybody has a role to play. We need to communicate that to people and make it easy for people, I think, to get online. I think we don't have to advocate the benefits of being online to anybody by now. I think we've had two years of everybody living their lives online. And just, interestingly, looking at some of the research that we've done recently, on average, individuals in the UK spend three hours and 37 minutes online every day by now. That is more than what we did a week about three or four years ago. So, it's phenomenal. Consumers' expectations of what we need to be able to do online is just increasing every day and we need to make sure that we realise the benefits and that consumers are—that we make it easy for consumers to get online.

Yes. Research by the Welsh Government shows that 7 per cent of adults are not online and that access to online services mirrors other inequalities in society. I know in my own constituency, the percentage of people not able to—[Inaudible.]—the internet or broadband. I know that Welsh Government, early days, used to roll out payment of tutorials for older people—'silver surfers' and things like that; I think that one was called 'silver surfers'. It was a fabulous group, funded by the Welsh Government, but then the funding withdrew, and that was such a shame really, so maybe I'll be asking Welsh Government to bring more of those funded classes in—

Have studies been done to understand the breakdown of the 7 per cent, whether it's awareness, a skills gap, whether it's affordability, whether it's fear? Have studies been done to actually break down the 7 per cent so that we understand the problem to tackle it?

Yes. Well, those are the sorts of questions I'll pose to Welsh Government. But the other thing for me that I find quite fascinating is that the last roll-out scheme didn't include any marketing. I felt really that I was doing the job sometimes, because we were holding public meetings to try and get people aware that this thing didn't switch on overnight. Because I even had one hotelier that said, 'Why is it that all the hoteliers around me have got this new system and I haven't?' And I said, 'Have you actually ordered it?'; 'Yes, I'm sure we have. I'll check.' And he came back and said, 'Sorry, we just didn't know that we had to order it.' They thought that it just was something that switched on automatically. So, again, it's building that awareness up, and, any future roll-out, I do think there has to be more of a PR exercise conducted by the companies, by Welsh Government, by everyone. Because I felt that we really did have to ask the obvious question, 'Have you ordered it?'

Yes. At Ogi, we have a thing we term 'the hyperlocal approach'. So, any community we're going into, we make a strong point of bringing those messages and that awareness in. So, we're holding cafe workshops; we're working with Age Cymru as well. We're trying to work with the local community to raise the expectations and the understanding and the awareness so that people can really understand the utility, what they can get from these new technologies, and how they can benefit them and access them and also working on things like social tariffs as well to make them more affordable and more available.

So, I think it is about engaging with the communities that you go to and taking responsibility as an operator as well to really inform and support people in going on that digital journey. It's amazing, the speed of change and the speed of adoption in general, but, still, there's a lot more that can be done and there are marginalised groups within the communities that just don't have access, don't understand it and we need a lot more support between both industry and, I think, Government as well to really help people get the most out of these technologies. Because, let's face it, the momentum that's behind these technologies—all of the things that are now moving online, so, both work, but also all of the care, telemedicine. So much now is done online, and these people are going to be increasingly marginalised if they can't have access to the technology.

Connie wants to come in.

Again, just to respond to your point, you referenced around Superfast Cymru and now the latest contract that Openreach are delivering in partnership with Welsh Government, and that absolutely is already in momentum to get out with that marketing campaign. There is a point in time that that's agreed where the majority have obviously already been connected, and there are already plans in place around how we'll look to go and actively market through social media platforms, targeting very specific customer groups, and also, then, obviously, the traditional leaflet and flyer drop, which will come from the Welsh Government to inform them that they've been upgraded. So, that is all already part of our marketing and comms plan, so we can share that with you once it's ready to come out.

Sure, and we'll come on to some of the individual initiatives in a minute. I'm just interested in this statistic that was shared with us earlier, and you touched on the social tariff stuff. We were quoted a statistic that the social tariff take-up is only 1.2 per cent of those who are eligible for it. What do you think that tells us about whether that's working or not?

Well, we haven't launched ours yet, so I'll leave this for the other two.

So, I suppose, probably, just looking at it one way is around who has taken it up, obviously using the social tariffs. At Openreach, we've agreed that for anybody on universal credit we will waiver the connection fee for a new connection. But I think there's probably a broader point around the usage of that social tariff and availability. So, one of the key things—. We've talked a lot about the rural notspots. One of the things we've really got to be very mindful of is that, actually, particularly within the more urban areas, mainly social housing or private landlords, where people live in multi-dwelling units, in flats, we could have a real challenge there around ensuring that they've got access to better broadband. It is a real challenge to rolling out full fibre, and that's because we do need a wayleave for each of those buildings, irrespective of whether we've already got a copper network in there. And sometimes it can be very lengthy, very challenging, and we can't always find out who the building owner is or agree those wayleaves, so we've got to be really careful that that group that might ordinarily access that social tariff in the first place have actually got access to better broadband in the first place, particularly in flats. So, it's just something that we've really got to be aware of across Wales, to make sure that we don't have almost that inner-city notspot area as well for, perhaps, more of those groups.

I think Delyth wants to come in on something.

I think Joyce actually had her hand up just before me.

Oh, I'm sorry. Joyce first, then. Sorry.

It's an obvious question, since you didn't answer, any of you, the last one on who pays for the new upgrade. If you've got a social tariff in place, and we know that people are going to have to move to a new system they might not be able to afford, in other words changing their landline to one connected to broadband, when you do that, when you inform your customers, as providers, that in 2025 you're switching off the availability they currently have, will you also let them know about your social tariff, in case—and I think it's quite likely—you're going to capture an awful lot of people on benefits, particularly the older customers?

Who wants to respond to that?

I suppose, just firstly, it's probably an important point to make that, for Openreach, we are a wholesaler, so we wholesale the services to the service provider. We don't have that direct relationship with consumers, so I'd probably pass the specific question onto, perhaps, other retail providers, either here or at a later date, around how they would offer that to the end customer.

I think that's a bit of work we still have to do, to be honest. We've been operating for 18 months, so I don't think that's something we've fully considered yet.

Okay. Delyth wants to come in, as does Janet, and then we will move on to our next areas of questions. Delyth.

Just briefly, is there anything more that you think could be done? I know that automatic enrollment onto the social tariff may be complicated because of the practical issues that Constance was laying out, but is there more you think that could be done to get closer to—? It's similar to Joyce's question, in terms of can people either be made aware or can it be done as close to automatically as possible, rather than getting people to be made aware and then have to choose to opt in. Because if people have different things, if they're facing multiple disadvantages, if people are leading chaotic lives because of different disadvantages, it might mean that even if they know that something is available, if they've got to go through lots of different hoops, they just might not do it.

Okay. Let's hear from Janet as well, and then we can address both—

Yes. A really simple question: is it as simple as just plugging your phone into the internet, or do you need a different telephone, and are those phones more expensive than a conventional phone?

You've gone back to the voice over internet protocol, have you?

Yes.

Yes, okay. Well, let's deal with Delyth's question first, then, about how do we create that additional awareness or can it be automated in some way, or related to some of the information that we have about customers.

Okay, we don't know. That's fine. We don't have to answer every question if we don't have anything to add.

We don't necessarily have anything to add on that at the moment.

Yes, okay.

Like I say, it's a tariff in the making for us. We don't have it yet.

Yes, okay.

It is something we consider—we think there's a role for a social tariff. How you make people aware of it, who has the right to access that tariff, I think that's something we need to work through.

That's fine. And, you know, this session is all about us identifying some of these areas that maybe we need to pursue further as a committee with relevant stakeholders. So, that's okay. So, coming back to Janet's question, then, about whether you need any particular additional kit. I mean, I—

'No, you don't' is the answer.

I've had my switchover, and it was seamless and it was great.

You take your existing phone, and you plug it into the new port provided on the new piece of equipment.

Yes, okay, great.

One of the interesting challenges can be things like extension wiring. So, if you've got a traditional socket served by BT, or Openreach, and all the extension wiring runs around the house, you've got multiple telephones, then, actually, there can be a little bit of re-plumbing required to mimic the same layout. But fundamentally, it does the same thing.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Okay, we'll move on then to Delyth for our next area of questioning.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Elinor was talking about the importance of communicating with communities, and Openreach is being funded by the Welsh Government to connect thousands of properties to superfast broadband. Constance, I don't want to ask you to mark Openreach's homework here, but how effectively—? Or, Constance, first of all, then, could you talk us through how Openreach are communicating with communities about this, and how effective you think Openreach is in doing doing this, and if other members of the panel had any thoughts on it as well, please?

Obviously, the current contract that we have in partnership with the Welsh Government was originally for 26,000 properties, and that's all full fibre. So, there's no fibre to the cabinet; it's all full fibre, ultrafast full fibre that we're rolling out. So, it was originally for 26,000 properties and then that was increased to 39,000 properties with an extension, and that extension was key in that it targeted the local authority areas that had the lowest level of broadband connectivity, so particularly Carmarthenshire, Gwynedd, Powys, Monmouthshire, Ceredigion, so particularly targeted in those areas. I can say here today that I'm really proud of how successful that contract has been, and is: as of today, we've connected over 30,000 customers, so 30,000 people have benefited. And what's really important just to note is they are the ultra rural, so they are those really, really difficult-to-deliver premises. And those 30,000 are quite dispersed, so whereas in the previous contract there may have been whole communities that we were upgrading, now they are smaller clusters where we're obviously building out full fibre.

There's a slightly different approach around communicating because of the parameters of the contract. So, one of the things you have to note is that with added competition into Wales, it means that there is more due diligence that needs to be done. So, properties that might have been considered for the contract to be upgraded, if there are plans from an operator to go there commercially, there's much more added due diligence to ensure that public subsidy is being directed in the right place.

So, a hugely successful programme. Welsh Government and Openreach meet weekly. Every week, there is a full comprehensive review of the design that's for each of these communities, the costs, and there's a number of checks that go in, and it's at that point there is an approval to build or not. So, we've already approved over 35,000; there are 30,000 that are built, and once we get to a certain point in the contract, we'll be communicating that to all of those customers, to give them absolute certainty. That's a real conscious decision, because I think lessons learned from previous contracts are that it's about giving certainty to people. So, once that approval-to-build decision is made, they will be connected, so we won't be in a position where people think they're going to be upgraded through the programme, and then find that they aren't and that they've fallen out. There's absolutely certainty provided. And it's at that point that the message will change on the Welsh Government website and the Openreach website to say, 'We are building full fibre.'

So, it's a very conscious decision in terms of communicating, but to be clear that, once the decision is made, then those premises will benefit. And then, once the connection is built, we've got a big campaign that's currently being worked through to go out and communicate with those households. So, it's hugely successful and there are lots of benefits that have already been provided to what are very rural communities.

Ocê. Delyth, hapus?

Hapus, ie. Diolch.

Ie, ocê. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay, we'll move on to Joyce, then. Joyce.

There are lots of broadband initiatives. There's Access Broadband Cymru, local broadband fund and the gigabit voucher scheme. First of all, are they effective? And if we're moving into a new age, let's say, do they need changing? Are there new schemes that you think would be more useful?

Okay. Ben.

Well, I can talk about our experience of the gigabit voucher scheme, which we've used quite extensively at Ogi, which we've found to be extremely useful. Ultimately, our build is largely focused on commercially viable areas, but where we want to enter areas that have a particularly high cost profile, either because we can't access existing duct infrastructure to bring the cost down, or the frontages of buildings are just very high, or the building's very remote, the use of the gigabit voucher scheme has been really, really good—it's been good. It's not a scheme that's without challenge, but it's been good. And the Welsh top-up as well, on top of that scheme, has been really good at making that money go further. So, our experience of that has been good, and we think that scheme should continue.

Of course, now, under Project Gigabit, there is a range of other subsidies coming in, looking at small, medium and larger lotting strategies to allow greater swathes of white premises, premises that won't be built by commercial operators, to access funding subsidy. So, we think that the current plans under Project Gigabit, as long as they avoid accidentally putting public money into areas that would, ultimately, be commercially built, would be really powerful ways to accelerate and expand the build of commercial operators. So, in general, we think that the scheme's very good, and we've welcomed the open-market review and the public review consultations with the UK to review that. So, we're looking forward to seeing what comes out of that work to help us go further. We're certainly seeing the strategy of, if you like, building the more commercially viable areas, say, a town, a post-industrial town, or a market town, and then using a doughnut strategy, where you introduce vouchers to allow you to go much further beyond, if you like, the logical boundaries of those towns, to go further, as being a really useful addition to our plans. But we'll see what comes out of the public review. I'll hold back a bit of judgment.

There we are. Okay. Thank you, Ben. Connie.

I can talk about our experience of using gigabit vouchers, particularly for our fibre community partnerships, and so much so that, actually, we've had a huge influx of communities, over the last two years, looking to work with us on a community fibre partnership. Over the last two years, we've worked to contract with over 3,500 premises typically using gigabit vouchers. There's been a slight adaptation to our approach. Typically, we would wait for communities to contact us through our portal, and then we'd work with them to design schemes. They tend to be smaller, more isolated communities. But also we've done a proactive approach where we've been able to model and look at communities where we think we could work with the community, get a decent level of demand, and then use the vouchers to proactively offer that as a service. That's been hugely successful this year, and it's meant that you haven't had to be reliant on a community lead. Typically, where you get a really strong community lead that works with us, they're the most successful to date, but, actually, this is an alternative to that and it means that you've got the balance of both, so that we can offer it into communities and we can work reactively with communities. But, yes, as I said, it's been hugely successful.

And then, just adding on to that point around that doughnut effect, if you look at areas, such as, and I'm going to name Burry Port in Carmarthenshire, that's an area where full fibre is in the 90 per cent there, and that's as a result of us going with commercial investment, and then using vouchers to go to those really hard-to-reach areas within that community. So, you really can start rolling out and using your commercial investment to go as far as you can and directing subsidy to those that really need it.

Okay. Before we come to Elinor, then, let's hear from Huw and then maybe we can pick up on that point as well.

I'm just wondering, Chair, whether you're able to share with the committee after the meeting today any geographic analysis of that rise in level of intensity of engagement, that proactive engagement that could show us where that's happening and how it relates to the analysis you've done of where it needs to be happening as well. I think that that would be quite useful. It's not commercially sensitive, I assume.

It is a very simple approach: where do we see the cost to build and the volume of people at the end of that that would take up the service? Can we put in our commercial contribution and then would vouchers be able to cover that build? So, we've kind of done that and offered that out, particularly in areas in Anglesey, Gwynedd and Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire. We've got examples of that.

So, you'd be able to share some of that information with us?

Yes. Some of those schemes are live and are being built at the moment, so, yes, absolutely.

Excellent. Okay. Elinor.

I agree with both Ben and Connie. But also, I don't think it's for Ofcom to comment on the success of the schemes, only to say that, without the schemes, a large number of premises in Wales wouldn't have been connected. And if I can just speak for a few moments from a personal perspective about the Access Broadband Cymru scheme, it was an early intervention by the Welsh Government, unique to Wales, and I think it's been invaluable in connecting a lot of premises in Wales. I, for one, live in a village at the end of the M4 in west Wales and we've been reliant on fixed wireless access for a very long number of years until full fibre came available. A village of around 150 premises all applied for the Access Broadband Cymru scheme and it was invaluable in connecting us. And it has been great, and I think, looking to the final few per cent, going back to the earlier questions about which technologies are available, I think fixed wireless access has a key role to play in filling the gaps. You know, it's not full fibre, it's not that gold standard that Connie spoke about earlier, but it is so much better than nothing.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Ken, you want to come in on this as well.

Thanks, Chair. I was just wondering, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change has said that the UK Government's gigabit voucher scheme has failed to reflect the true cost of deploying in the Welsh landscape. Would you agree with this?

Ben.

It's sort of difficult to comment, really. There will obviously be times when the gigabit voucher scheme is appropriate and the right size, but there will be times when it isn't enough. I mean, there are premises that literally lie kilometres away from their nearest neighbours, and frankly, we're into tens or hundreds of thousands to connect those. So, it really depends on which segment the Minister was referring to. In the main, we've found the gigabit voucher scheme, including the Welsh top-up scheme, to be adequate to cover a lot of the communities we'd be looking at.

Is that a view that you share, as Openreach? Sorry, Ken, you wanted to come back.

Yes, sorry. I was just going to ask: is the Welsh landscape distinctly different to other parts of the UK, where the gigabit voucher scheme is being taken up by a considerable number of customers?

There are obviously a large number of rural properties, because of the geography. I don't know if you could make that sort of sweeping statement. I mean, there are lots of rural parts of the UK, but there are obviously a lot of rural properties in Wales, so if you are looking to tackle the hardest first, then potentially you're going to find that these subsidies are not enough.

Connie.

I think the topology of Wales is absolutely key. So, the gigabit voucher scheme has been hugely successful. I touched on the number across Wales that we've worked with in the last two years, and I think part of that has been driven by—. You know, we reflect on communication, and I look at four years ago, the volume of communities working with us in community fibre partnerships across Wales was relatively low. That's hugely increased over the last two years as a result of communicating and promoting the scheme as an option and working with various stakeholders, hence why we've got more people that are being connected using vouchers. However, we can't get away from the fact that they are, in their very nature, targeting the rural and the harder-to-help, because they are rural vouchers. And then, when you look at the topology of Wales and the proportion of Ofcom area 3 in Wales, it is significantly higher than the rest of the UK.

So, I think we have to be very real to the fact that, as we get into those more challenging areas across Wales, it will be a more challenging and therefore more expensive build. But to look at the vouchers so far, and the top-up that's been available, we can look at and see, just by pure volume of how many communities have benefited, that it's been successful.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, Ken. Delyth.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Sorry to the host. I always do this; I always unmute myself and then we have a little dance between us, so sorry about that.

Don't touch. Yes, don't touch any buttons. [Laughter.]

No, I shouldn't touch anything. Sorry. Could you please talk us through how effective you think the universal service obligation is in this context?

Right, who wants to start? Elinor.

Well, I'll try. So, I think it's accepted that the universal service obligation is a safety net. Yes, it's an intervention of last resort, I think, and the 10 Mb is there. You know, 10 Mb—at the time, Ofcom did a lot of work around what we considered was a decent connection, and we decided that 10 Mbps download, and 1 Mb upload, was sufficient for the majority of families' needs to do the kinds of things that they need to do every day. It was implemented in March 2020, and BT was designated as the provider, with KCOM, if you live in Hull. But, you know, we estimate that there are around just under 15,000 homes and premises in Wales that do not have access to what we call decent broadband and could be eligible for the USO.

So, if you look at some of the communities that have been connected, in our last 'Connected Nations' report, I think there were around 600 premises connected at the time—some in Brithdir, some in Pandy, in north-east Wales—that have been successful. But a few months into the USO being made available to consumers, it became apparent that there was something not quite right with the way that it was working, and consumers who were registering were being given ridiculously high quotes to be connected, which made Ofcom think that something was not quite right. So, we investigated and it was decided that the way in which BT were working out the quotes for consumers needed to be amended. And we've done that. There is a cost criteria, so if the cost of connecting premises is less than £3,400, there's no cost to the consumer. If it's above £3,400, then we expect the consumer to pay a contribution towards being connected. But, you know, it is successful insofar as it does give consumers the right to request a 10 Mb connection. And as I think you heard in the first session, what we find is that some of the connections that are made using the USO, you don't just get 10 Mb, you get full fibre. So, in that respect, it is successful. I think the ambition was always there to give people the right to request—a legal right to request 10 Mb—but I think, in reality, what we find is that, because of the 15,000 premises being in the final few per cent, being in the hardest-to-reach areas, the cost of getting to those premises are very, very high.

Huw wants to ask a supplementary.

Yes. And sorry, Delyth, if you were going to ask this, but I was very taken by that cryptic comment there, that BT's calculations may not have been appropriate or whatever. Sorry, I'm not putting words into your mouth. Can you expand on that a little bit? Were they overestimating contributions? What was that—?

No, I don't think they were overestimating, there was just a lack of clarity, I think, in—. As part of the general conditions that Ofcom put on BT on the way they managed the USO, they were required to assume that there would be 70 per cent take-up of services in a particular area, and then they were supposed to share the costs of the build equally among those 70 per cent of premises, and for some reason or other, it wasn't clear that, in some cases, that's what they were doing. In some cases, where there were high quotes, they were genuinely high quote because of where the premises were, but we liaised with BT and we have put measures in place now to make sure that they do work out the quotes as they are supposed to be. Insofar as we are monitoring the progress of the USO, it is working as it should now.

Okay, thank you.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. Janet.

Thank you, Chair. Ogi talk about the benefits of public-private co-operation, for example in Pembrokeshire. How can this good work practice be rolled out more widely?

We've had a good experience working with a number of local authorities, but I'd say that Pembrokeshire is a bit of a shining example for us of how it can work. They have clearly put full fibre and connectivity as a strategic priority for that authority, which I think underpins the way they operate. They do a great job of pulling together the private sector, the communities involved, the available subsidies, and they help, really, to generate awareness, help build demand and help find solutions, basically, between those parties to actually address each community's needs. So, we've really been impressed by that model, and we think that if more local authorities made broadband and fibre a strategic priority and worked with the likes of ourselves and other commercial operators, more could get done. So, yes, we're big advocates and find their approach particularly refreshing.

And are you aware of any work that's been done with Pembrokeshire and their digital broadband delivery programme team? I wonder if any other local authorities have thought to themselves—. Are they aware of how well it's—? Because I've always found there's been some, between local authorities—especially in north Wales, where something's working well, there's a lot of regional working. Is there an awareness?

We certainly talk about them a lot, and we promote them a lot. So, hopefully that will have some impact—

I'm going to be mentioning them in Aberconwy.

Somebody else is now as well, yes.

But, yes, I think more local authorities should go and look at what they're doing. They are an inspiring bunch, and they're really good at helping us work through things like barrier-busting issues, things that are really practical issues that would make our roll-out slower or more expensive, or mean that we could get to fewer properties. They're really there, helping us go the extra mile, and then, of course, as an operator, it makes you much more inclined to find solutions yourselves, so it really becomes quite a partnership to solve quite thorny challenges. We're talking about some of the hardest-to-reach properties, where we're looking to find a collective solution.

Thank you.

Joyce wants to come in on this as well. Joyce.

I'm not hard to reach, and I've got both your connections straight outside my door, because I live in Pembrokeshire. My question is this: we focus very heavily on where we are now, but you have to focus on where we're going, and where we're going at the moment is lots of houses being built, and we don't want to be retrofitting those estates, very large estates, actually. There's one not far from where I live, and where Ogi has just connected, being built as we speak. So, my question is this, to both of you: are you engaged in the planning process with local authorities—this is about engaging with local authorities—ensuring that you're putting the broadband, as described here, in those new properties so that all the digging up of roads, inconvenience and lack of availability isn't going to happen in the here and now?

'Yes' is the answer. The new developers have the flexibility option to go to a number of potential providers of broadband services in their builds, so they may or may not choose to ask Ogi to be a provider, or any other operator. So, we rely a little bit on them wanting to engage with us so that they actually create an engagement, and what we'd like to see is, certainly, the legislation change around home building such that a fibre connection had to be provided as part of that build. I'll let you come in, Connie, because you mentioned it yesterday.

Yes, absolutely. Joyce, you've made a really, really key point. We've talked a lot about white properties and how we're going to keep—. We're constantly chasing that magic number, and the more and more homes that are built without full fibre connectivity, you're going to stay at 95 per cent, 96 per cent, because for every one that we try really, really hard to connect, through USO, though vouchers, through commercial, more are popping without anything. So, at Openreach, we work with all of the major developers and full fibre is offered, for free, for plots of 20 or more, and we offer a rate card. So, we ask for a very small contribution from the developer to build full fibre into plots of two or more. And, in the majority, about 90 per cent of developers opt for full fibre. So, on full fibre, they work with us pre plan, so we work with them as part of that planning stage. The really key point for Wales, though, is that we have more smaller developments across Wales, generally, and it's where those properties are being built without full fibre. So, absolutely one of the key opportunities here is to mandate gigabit in new builds. Wales has already gone really far in the sense that, for social housing, there is a requirement for gigabit technology. But we would really, really welcome that being mandated across private developments as well.

I think, increasingly, home builders are really alive to this. Persimmon Homes, which is one of the major home builders, actually created their own internet service provider company. So, they're putting their own infrastructure and run their own ISP to satisfy this. So, the first question when you buy a new home is: has it got decent broadband? So, I think they're alive to it. It's just the consistency, and moving to the point where it was legislated so that, at the very minimum, everybody had fibre would be a very smart thing to do.

Okay. Huw.

Just one small follow-up. That's quite interesting that Persimmon's been receiving some praise for that. It's good to hear. Are there any worries over new house buyers being tied in?

Yes, I think that's a monopolistic position. So, I'm not a big fan of Persimmon doing that, per se, but I do think at least somebody's putting the fibre infrastructure in. But, yes, what we want is fair access, right. Anybody who provides infrastructure wants fair access to those new premises to be able to offer consumers a genuine choice.

So, should this committee be taking an interest in the step forward that is, undoubtedly, that big house builders are considering putting the infrastructure in? But we've seen it in other areas, Chair, where there is then a monopolistic position, saying, 'You are now tied in.'

Yes, it's a concern, for sure.

Open access to the network—one of the benefits is that consumers get choice, and there is lots of great work being done across the industry with different infrastructure providers working with developers to share infrastructure so that you're not digging up more than once. So, yes, but I think, for us, there is a real opportunity here around the mandation of gigabit, whether that's open access or not. Obviously, we'd love for it to be open access, but the primary point is that we're not building more premises across Wales without decent broadband.

Well, this is taking us on now to the next area of questioning, actually, so it's really good that we're going there. So, I'll invite Joyce, maybe, to come in with a few questions.

I'll open with that question: do consumers have enough choice in their broadband infrastructure providers? And how aware consumers are of the options provided by smaller broadband providers? And I ask that because you talked about small-scale developments.

Do you mind if I come in on that?

Yes, please do.

A large proportion of Wales really only has one major provider, which is Openreach. Openreach is regulated, they provide wholesale products, and a myriad of retailers then provide services to consumers over that. That's a model. Some areas of Wales have Virgin Media. I think Cardiff, Swansea and Newport in particular have Virgin Media as an alternative infrastructure provider. But, like I say, large parts of Wales really have no infrastructure competition, and we're here to change that. Ultimately, we want to bring in an alternative infrastructure—genuinely competitive infrastructure for public services, for consumers, for businesses et cetera. We are great believers in infrastructure competition. We've raised £200 million for our first plan. That's a first phase of a plan to roll out to at least 500,000 premises, and we believe that is the best way to give everybody more choice and it should benefit everybody.

Okay. Connie.

And just to add to that, I think the regulatory environment as well is changing, so it makes the investment in building network, I suppose, more attractive for alternative builders, particularly where you've got something called passive infrastructure access. So, in a lot of cases, new entrants into the infrastructure/building market, as such, will be able to access the ducts and the poles that Openreach have. Now, there are two really important points on that: No. 1 is it's about, you know, competition is good, and the more that is available, the more that we can get to cover all of Wales, so we're really welcoming competition in that sense; secondly, the disruption is minimised as well, in terms of digging up roads, putting up poles, so that sharing-of-infrastructure approach is really important. There is something more that we can be doing, and it's something we're working with DCMS on, and it's around automatic upgrade rights. So, where we do have access via wayleaves for poles, if we've got a wayleave for a copper infrastructure, we really want to be able to automatically upgrade to full fibre, and that's a really big opportunity for a look at that across Wales, which will not only benefit Openreach, it'll benefit everybody that's building broadband across Wales. So, again, it's a really good opportunity to look at how we can go further.

Okay. Elinor, do you want to add anything?

Yes, it's probably just worth mentioning that the things that Connie and Ben have both mentioned are as a result of some of the regulatory decisions that Ofcom has made in the past few years. So, anybody who's interested in quite an intense read, I'd suggest reading our wholesale fixed telecoms market review, which runs into hundreds of pages, but essentially it sets the rules and decisions around our regulation of the fixed telecoms industry, and that underpins broadband, mobile and business connections. Those decisions are there to promote investment in gigabit-capable networks, and some of those decisions, as Ben mentioned, are about taking different regulatory approaches in different parts of the UK depending on the level of competition in that particular area. It's, as Connie mentioned, incentivising Openreach to invest by taking away some of the risks associated with the riskier investments, and as we've previously mentioned about the migration to voice, it's about making that migration as smooth as possible, and early indications—. The current wholesale fixed telecoms market review runs from 2021-26, so it's early days, but early indications show that some of the decisions we made in that document are working and they are promoting investment. So, we are seeing new entrants like Ogi come to compete against Openreach, accepting that maybe Openreach will always be the biggest infrastructure provider, but competition is so important and providing that choice to consumers is also essential.

So, is it fair to say that there is less competition in Wales, for example, compared to the rest of the UK?

Yes, absolutely. Yes.

So, what does the Welsh Government need to do, then, in terms of using its regulatory powers to maybe improve the commercial viability of broadband roll-out? Those are the kinds of things that we need to pose to them.

I would just like to say that what Ofcom did to regulate and open up the Openreach infrastructure has been game changing for the industry. There are 140 altnets in the UK now.

A hundred and forty—?

A hundred and forty alternative network operators in the UK. That's a rough number. And a lot of that is due to the work that Ofcom did to allow access to the Openreach duct and pole infrastructure, so the fact that we can now install fibre cables in the existing BT or Openreach duct, and put our fibres on an Openreach pole, has had massive benefits because it's brought the commerciality, the viability of installing new infrastructure into the reach of so many more premises in the UK. It's been game changing, so that’s really good.

The market is already bringing new entrants into Wales. Ogi won't be the first or the last new entrant in Wales. The market, particularly through the use now of PIA, is already coming this way, and there will be other operators that will come in to serve the need. I think what needs to happen is happening. I think the BDUK Project Gigabit will bring others still, and the fact that subsidies can be found to get to the harder-to-reach premises will bring more operators still. I think it's a really buoyant market. I think the work that the Welsh Government did on the trunk road concession, which is a concession contract that Ogi won that allows us to install fibre cables in existing ducts alongside the motorways and fast roads, again, has been a real game-changer for us. So, those kinds of initiatives—access to existing infrastructure, welcoming in new operators, and Project Gigabit—will all bring the market to Wales.

Ocê. Diolch yn fawr. Huw.

Thanks. That's a really optimistic scenario of, 'The right things are in place, it's going to happen, the competition is going to arrive.' Is it just, then, that potential innovators within this marketplace have just been slow to look west? Why is England so—?

People tend to do the easier stuff first.

Okay.

That is just natural. The easiest, cheapest stuff gets done first.

We are difficult in Wales. [Laughter.]

It's a lot easier to build Coventry and Birmingham. That's just the reality of this. It's easier, it's cheaper, the houses are more densely together. It's just a lot easier. This is a tricky, tricky part of the world.

It's why we were never overrun, Llyr. [Laughter.]

If you look at it as a business case, to that point, it's about how you make a return in a certain period. And this isn't a quick, overnight—. Some of the returns that we're looking at might mean that it's 10, 20 years' time before you get a return on your investment. So, you have to really think hard about where you invest. And it's relatively simple, and I'll simplify it. It's not in the detail, but it's relatively simple: what is the cost of build and how many people can you sell your services to? And when you look at that cost to build, the topography of Wales does make it typically more expensive, because we've got more homes that are dispersed. When you think about building full fibre, it's like a tree: so, you've got the tree trunk, and you go into the branches and the twigs, and the further you get out, you might have a very small—. It's a very simple way to describe it. If you look at a city, it's very small, like a bush, and then you look at rural parts of Wales and it's like a huge oak tree, and you've got to get to the very top. That's it. So, when you look at the cost to build for that one person at the very end of the twig, it's very expensive at a cost per premises.

So, I do think, if I talk as Openreach, our experience of building in those rural areas has meant that we've been able to be more innovative and bring the cost of building to rural areas down so that, actually, areas that would never have been commercially viable four years ago are now part of our commercial investment plans because we can go there without using a subsidy. So, part of it is around track record and consistently developing new techniques around how you actually build the fibre itself, and then I think it's more around—. There is always more we can do around the time it takes to deploy—because that's it: it's all about time. So, how can you make it really efficient for people to build, whether that's Openreach or whether that's Ogi. So, there are things that we could be looking at. They are things like flexi permits. At the moment, I think, we've estimated that it's thousands and thousands of permits for the local authorities when we want to work on a road, and, actually, could we have a slight tweak and, rather than having an individual permit for every single thing that we do, could we have flexi permits where you might have a cluster of roads over a certain period and you can work in that period, so that you're stopping that stop-start scenario of building up fibre and being much more efficient. So, there are very practical things. I would say mandating full fibre in homes is really key, because if you've got those rural homes and we can get fibre there, then it's easier to spread from that point. Secondly, it's things like flexi permits and being much more pragmatic in that build. And if I look at an area like Merthyr Tydfil, they have been absolutely brilliant in our commercial roll-out, and the volume that we were able to deliver in a very short space of time meant that we were able to go beyond what we anticipated in terms of our commercial investment and go to those really hard-to-reach areas with that same budget. So, it really is about being as efficient as we can to attract people in.

Gwych iawn. Ocê. Wel, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni fel pwyllgor wedi gwyntyllu'r holl feysydd roedden ni'n awyddus i'w trafod gyda chi, felly gaf i ddiolch ichi o waelod calon am eich tystiolaeth y bore yma? Rydyn ni wedi cael dwy sesiwn ardderchog, dwi'n meddwl, i gychwyn y gwaith yma. Mi fyddwch chi, fel dwi'n dweud wrth bawb, yn cael copi o'r trawsgrifiad drafft jest i'w wirio fe, ond, gyda hynny, diolch o galon i'r tri ohonoch chi am eich tystiolaeth; mae wedi bod yn eithriadol o werthfawr i ni fel pwyllgor. Diolch yn fawr.

Mi wnaiff y pwyllgor, felly, symud at eitem 4. Mae yna bedwar papur i'w nodi yn eich pecynnau chi, 4.1 i 4.3 yn y prif becyn, a phapur 4.4 yn y pecyn atodol. Ydy Aelodau'n hapus i nodi'r rheini? Ie. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Gyda hynny, felly, fe wnawn ni symud i sesiwn breifat, a dwi'n cynnig, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix), fod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu cynnal gweddill y cyfarfod yn breifat. Ydy Aelodau'n fodlon â hynny? Pawb yn fodlon. Dyna ni. Mi wnawn ni symud, felly, i sesiwn breifat. Diolch yn fawr.