Local Government and Housing Committee

Bore da, bawb. Ydy'r offer cyfieithu ar gael bore yma? Ydy. Diolch am y gwahoddiad i fynychu hwn heddiw. Dwi'n gadeirydd ar CJC canolbarth Cymru ers mis Mai, gan mai bryd hwnnw des i'n arweinydd ar Gyngor Sir Ceredigion. Bach o rude awakening, os gallaf ddweud y gwir—lot o bethau doeddwn i ddim cweit yn deall ar y dechrau, ond rŷm ni wedi cael yr ail gyfarfod nawr. Dwi'n gweld elfen o rwystredigaeth o ran y cwestiynau rŷm ni eisoes wedi eu holi ar gyfer y tymor byr—pethau fel treth ar werth a'r dreth gorfforaethol o ran yr arian grant fyddwn ni'n holi amdano.

Fel cadeirydd, mae'r cyfarfod ar—. Mae amserlen o ran cyfarfodydd. Mae'r cyfarfod nesaf gyda ni ym mis Tachwedd nawr, a dwi'n teimlo os nad ydym ni'n cael atebion am y dreth ar werth a'r dreth gorfforaethol, yna pa bwrpas fydd yna inni gwrdd? Felly, os oes rhywbeth yn mynd i ddod mas o'r cyfarfod hwn heddiw, Gadeirydd, bydden ni'n gobeithio ein bod ni'n gallu cael datrysiad i'r cwestiynau rŷm ni wedi eu holi'n barod. Felly, dwi'n teimlo ei bod hi'n anodd inni symud ymlaen â phrosiectau eraill ac i 'rubber-stampo' prosiectau nes ein bod ni'n cael atebion i'r cwestiynau hynny. Sori i fod yn negyddol am y peth, ond rwy'n credu, achos ei fod e'n fforwm cyhoeddus o ran y CJC, fe fyddai'n adlewyrchiad gwael arnom ni os dŷn ni'n holi'r un cwestiynau eto ac eto a ddim wedi cael yr atebion. Felly, o ran yr objectives o ran y tymor byr, mae hwnna'n rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid inni ddod drosto cyn ein bod ni'n symud ymlaen, a dweud y gwir.

Bryan, so, are you in a position at the moment then to set out—notwithstanding those difficulties with VAT and corporation tax—what you'd like to do in the short and medium-term?

Ie. Mae bwrdd tyfu canolbarth Cymru, dŷn ni wedi edrych ar y prosiectau sydd gyda ni, ac mae'r cynlluniau hynny'n barod yn mynd ymlaen i'r cam nesaf nawr, a bydd y rheini'n dod gerbron y CJC felly, yn barod i fwrw gerdded i'r stage nesaf. Ond, yn y cyfamser, mae'n rhaid inni gael yr atebion i'r peth arall. Ond, o ran y cynlluniau, mae'r rheini wedi dod trwyddo'n iawn beth bynnag. Felly, mae'r gwaith y mae'r bwrdd yn ei wneud, boed e'n aelodau etholedig neu'n swyddogion o Bowys a Cheredigion, mae'r cydweithio yna'n dda iawn, a dweud y gwir wrthych chi. Felly, byddai'n drueni os yw hwn yn mynd i rwystro'r cynlluniau yna dros dro efallai.

Yes. Are there any headlines you could share with us in terms of those projects then, Bryan? What is the nature of those projects, the ones that are most important to you?

Un o'r cynlluniau yn ardal Powys yw'r CAT, y Centre for Alternative Technology ym Machynlleth. Mae yna gynllun o ran yr elfen addysgiadol a phethau'n dod ymlaen fanna. O ran Ceredigion, mae yna ddau beth sydd ynghlwm fanna: edrych ar harbwr Aberaeron a chreu marina newydd fanna. Cynllun arall yng Ngheredigion—y brifysgol yn Llanbed, creu rhyw ganolfan uchelgeisiol o ran bwydydd, er enghraifft. Mae cynllun arloesol gyda nhw o'r enw Tir Glas, lle maen nhw'n edrych ar from the fields to the fork teip o beth. Ac yn sgil hynny, maen nhw'n gobeithio gwneud rhyw centre of excellence yn yr ardal o ran hynny. Mae yna gynlluniau hefyd o ran canolfan fwyd yn Horeb, Llandysul—eto, rhywbeth arloesol. Mae'r pwyslais o greu bwyd ag ôl-troed carbon isel yn hollbwysig, a thrwy gydweithio â'r coleg, yn Llanbed yn enwedig, gallai hwnnw fod yn rhywbeth arloesol. Mae yna ambell i gynllun arall ym Mhowys efallai sydd ddim wedi cweit bwrw'r targed o ran y wybodaeth sydd ei hangen, felly mae'r rheini wedi mynd nôl, i ailedrych ar y cynlluniau yna—pethau fel rhyw gynllun gyda chamlas, er enghraifft. Felly, mae'r rheini, gobeithio, yn mynd i ddod nôl â rhagor o wybodaeth, fel eu bod nhw'n gallu mynd ymlaen i'r stage nesaf wedyn.

Diolch yn fawr. Anthony.

Yes. To answer the two parts of your question, in the short term, we're keen to overcome the technical matters that are currently standing in the way of us moving to proper operational mode, and we're keen to do that in the south-east as quick as we possibly can, so that we can—

Anthony, is that corporation tax and VAT?

VAT, yes. I think there are seven separate issues in total that we're corresponding with both Governments about at the moment. We welcome Rebecca and Vaughan's input in that, and also the Wales Office, to try and move those things along. So, that's very welcome. I'm very conscious I'm speaking to a committee here, rather than Welsh Government, but any input you can give into that will be welcome too, because that's currently standing in the way of our medium-term ambitions, which are very much to keep the impact and partnership work up at a regional level and keep bureaucracy down. This is why we're seeking to roll the CJC into the Cardiff capital region in south-east Wales, rather than having separate organisations, and also roll other bits of work around the Valleys, for example, that we've done, to harness that together, rather than having the same people meet in several different forums—more partnership and fewer meetings is my ambition, certainly. That's why I'm here as a CJC chair jointly with the CCR, rather than having separate chairs; we're keen to very much keep that up. We're keen to work on strategic transport and planning things and things that will really have an impact in the region, and also to build on the partnership of the 10 local authorities and the work we're doing to try and take economic development forward as a city region. So, those are the medium-term plans, but it all depends on overcoming that short-term hurdle of the technical issues.

Anthony, could I just ask you a little bit about that rolling in, as it were, of the CJC into the Cardiff capital region? Because I think there have been concerns on the committee, and elsewhere, in terms of the various footprints around and how it can get very unwieldy and confusing at times, and simplicity and a small number of beyond the local authority boundary organisations I think is quite preferable, if possible. So, is there a need for a CJC at all then, if it's being rolled into the Cardiff capital region?

The powers it can give us, the emphasis on the principle of subsidiarity is what I think should govern us—what works best at the right level. But I think the alternative is—. We've already got CJCs, we've got CCR, we've got regional partnership boards, we've got public services boards. If we're not careful—it's the same people, at the end of the day—we'll get drowned in so many meetings that we won't be able to push things forward between the meetings. So, there is a need to be sensitive, I think, when dealing with footprint, for example. I've done some work on the Valleys regional park; we need to make sure we involve the western authorities in that, involve the national parks, for example, in the CJC work as an equal partner. But I think if we're sensitive and genuinely collaborative in how we work, I don't think that's beyond us, and I think it's better than the alternative, really, of inventing another set of bureaucracy that will just need feeding in its own right as opposed to getting the outcomes for our residents.

Okay. Thanks very much. Okay. Dyfrig, could we call on you next, os gwelwch yn dda?

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Yn rhannu, gyda llaw, rhai o sylwadau Anthony yn fanna. Buaswn i'n dweud, i ateb y cwestiwn cyntaf, felly, mae ein nod tymor byr ni ydy sefydlu'r cyd-bwyllgor ar sail gadarn. Ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, Cyngor Gwynedd sy'n digwydd bod yn gyngor arweiniol ar hyn, ac mae'r gwaith o gynhyrchu cyfansoddiad ac yn y blaen wedi bod yn sylweddol iawn, felly. Rydym ni fel petawn ni'n ailddyfeisio'r olwyn yn fan hyn; rydym ni yn gorfod mynd trwy gymaint o fiwrocratiaeth—a dwi'n gweld o'n drwm iawn. Beth bynnag, rydym ni wedi sefydlu'r cyfansoddiad. Mae gennym ni bedwar is-bwyllgor sydd ddim wedi cyfarfod eto. Yn y tymor canol, eto, i rannu sylwadau Anthony, mae'n debyg ein prif bryder ni ydy bod gwaith Bwrdd Uchelgais Economaidd Gogledd Cymru yn cael ei lastwreiddio, ac rydym ni wedi buddsoddi ynni ac egni dros y blynyddoedd i sefydlu'r bartneriaeth lwyddiannus honno, ac mae o eisoes yn gweithredu rhai prosiectau o'r cynllun twf. Ac mae gennym ni swyddfa raglen eithaf cadarn a chryf yno, ac rydym ni'n awyddus iawn i weld bod proffil y corff hwnnw yn parhau i fod yr un mor uchel a dylanwadol ag ydy o rŵan. I'r perwyl hwnnw, ar hyn o bryd, rydym ni wedi secondio cyfarwyddwraig y swyddfa raglen honno, Alwen Williams, i fod yn brifweithredwraig y cyd-bwyllgor dros dro. Bydd hi yn rhoi dau ddiwrnod yr wythnos ar gyfer y gwaith yna felly.

Rydym ni hefyd yn awyddus iawn i gadw'n costau i lawr, ac mae hynny yn mynd i fod yn her sylweddol inni. Yn ein cyfarfod diwethaf un yr wythnos diwethaf, roedd yna drafodaeth ar ein cyllideb ni, ac mi oedd yna sawl arweinydd cyngor yn mynegi y byddan nhw'n cael trafferth i gyfrannu eu lefi ar y lefel presennol, ac mae'r lefel hwnnw yn fach iawn. Hynny ydy, mae'n cyllideb ni ar hyn o bryd yn rhywbeth fel £360,000, ond bydd yn rhaid iddo fod yn £640,000 ymhen amser er mwyn inni aros yn llonydd, a dwi'n gweld y drafodaeth yna yn mynd i fod yn un anodd iawn, iawn. Mae ein cynghorau ni'n wynebu sefyllfa wirioneddol argyfyngus y flwyddyn hon a'r flwyddyn nesaf a'r blynyddoedd i ddod, ac os oes rhestr toriadau, yna mi fydd y cyd-bwyllgor ar ben y rhestr honno, dwi'n credu.

Yn gyffredinol, dwi yn cwestiynu beth yw pwrpas y cyd-bwyllgor. Rydyn ni wedi ymrwymo, yn y gogledd, i'w weithredu fo a'i wneud o'n gorff cadarn, ond dwi yn teimlo bod yna ddyblygu, yn sicr—dyblygu biwrocratiaeth, dyblygu gwaith—ac mae Anthony Hunt yn berffaith iawn, mae'n arweinyddion bellach yn treulio hanner eu hamser yn cyfarfod mewn rhyw bartneriaeth neu'i gilydd, ac mae'n anodd gweld beth yw'r gwerth ychwanegol i'n trethdalwyr ni o nifer o'r partneriaethau hynny. Ac eto, dwi ddim yn gweld beth yw'r gwerth ychwanegol sydd gennym ni yn ein cyd-bwyllgor.

Okay, Dyfrig, diolch.

Diolch.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. Rob Stuart then.

Thank you, Chair. To answer your question directly, the key projects for us and priorities for us, now that we've established the CJC, are to progress as quickly as we can the south-west Wales transport initiatives, specifically the metro. That's a key objective for us. It was a key objective that we would have liked to have included in our city deal, but, of course, at the time, we were in negotiations with the UK Government on electrification and other stuff, which subsequently were removed as options. So, the delivery of the metro is hugely important to our region, not just for improving transport options, both by bus and rail across the south-west Wales region, but also helping to improve journey times between the south-west of Wales and the rest of the UK. So, that's a key objective for us.

Outside of that, energy remains a major priority, as it is within the city deal. We are progressing a bid, being led by Neath Port Talbot and Pembrokeshire councils, for a free port in Swansea. We, obviously, are progressing the revised tidal lagoon proposal, which is now entirely privately funded, called Blue Eden, and that's making significant progress in terms of land assembly. So, these are complementary projects that were priorities for us anyway under the city deal and under other initiatives, but the CJC helps us to co-ordinate more formally the arrangements between the parties there.

Whilst I absolutely agree with the comments made by Anthony and others around the technical aspects that we need to resolve quickly with Welsh Government and UK Government to ensure we've got a firm basis on which to plan and that we have answers to some of the key financial questions, we see the evolution of CJCs building on what we've already achieved around our city deal. So, for us, we’ve taken a very similar approach to the Cardiff capital region. I'm chair of the city deal and I'm also chair of the CJC. The membership and the constitution are largely duplication, in that we haven't reinvented the wheel for the CJCs, because, as everybody has alluded to, the last thing we want is new structures invented where we've already got ones that are working perfectly well. So, we've tried to be pragmatic and guide Welsh Government where we can to make sure that we’re sensible about how we organise, and the city deal for us becomes a major strand of the work of the new CJCs.

Outside of that, we're beginning the work on the strategic planning work and, obviously, economic development, in terms of delivery of the city deal projects, is core to that. Nine of them are now live and in delivery, so it's making sure that they deliver on the aims that were set out when we agreed the deal. So, for us, yes, it's evolution, not revolution.

Rob, are you on the same footing then as Anthony in terms of bringing the CJC into the city deal, or, as you described it, is the city deal sitting within the CJC?

Yes, so the structure's slightly different, as I understand it, in the Cardiff capital region, in that they have essentially a cabinet of 10 authorities. We obviously have a committee of four members, and what we've done is to move our city deal delivery and the central office as a strand underneath the wider work of the CJCs. So, it remains a separate body in essence, but to make sure that it's co-ordinated and aligned, we've included that. So, we've done it slightly the other way, but exactly the same principle.

Yes, I see. Rob, could you just give us a flavour of the advantages that CJCs bring, in terms of that co-ordination that you mentioned?

One of the ones that's key for us is that we haven't had transport, as I said, as part of our city deal delivery. The South West Wales Integrated Transport Consortium, which obviously was a predecessor collaboration, was dissolved and, as such, we've continued to meet informally between the partners in the region to try and plan across the region in terms of our transport initiatives. But the re-establishment, essentially, of a formal transport committee now will really help us to co-ordinate those better and plan for the delivery of big projects like the metro. So, for us, that is a real advantage of having the CJC arrangements formalised.

Thanks very much, Rob, that's very useful. Could I just ask generally then to all of our witnesses if there's anything that you'd like to highlight to committee in terms of the challenges that you're likely to face with the CJCs over the next six to 12 months, beyond what you've already set out? Yes, Bryan.

Dwi ddim yn siŵr os yw Dyfrig yn wynebu'r un rhwystredigaethau, ond mewn ardal wledig, dwi'n credu, yn gyffredinol, mae'r costau o greu'r prosiectau yn dueddol o gosti mwy. O ran y cynlluniau sydd gyda ni, rŷch chi gyd yn ymwybodol bod costau nwyddau wedi cynyddu tipyn dros y misoedd diwethaf. Dwi ddim yn siŵr, ond yr analogy dwi'n ei ddefyddio'n aml yw bod e fel 'steer-o' tancer o olew, ble mae'n cymryd gymaint o amser i droi i ryw gyfeiriad, ac yn y cyfamser, mae'r prisiau wedi codi gymaint, felly mae'n rhaid ailedrych ar y costau a phethau.

Dwi ddim eisiau bod yn or-negyddol, ond dwi jest yn teimlo bod y CJC yn haenen ychwanegol o fiwrocratiaeth. Ond, wedyn, o ran y positif, mae e'n haenen arall o graffu hefyd, achos mae'n rhaid cael y craffu yna, yn enwedig gyda'r symiau o arian rŷn ni'n holi am. Felly, dwi'n derbyn hwnna; dwi'n derbyn hwnna yn gywir. Ond, yn ystod yr amser mae'n cymryd i gael y prosiectau hyn drwyddo, mae'r costau wedi cynyddu tipyn bach, a mae hwnna yn elfen efallai rŷn ni'n gweld mewn ardal fwy gwledig.

Okay. Thanks, Bryan, and Chris. Chris Llewelyn.

Thanks, Chair. I just wanted to emphasise that it's still very early in the development of CJCs, and it's maybe a recognition that, when any kind of new tier of governance or regional arrangement is put in place, it does take time. I think, inevitably, these things take longer than would have been anticipated at the start. Very often, they cost more, and when it comes to the delivery and setting up arrangements, there are often challenges that couldn't have been anticipated in advance. And then, as other colleagues have mentioned as well, I think, at every level of government, we need to take account of the challenging circumstances we face. Bryan mentioned the cost-of-living crisis. There is such an array of unprecedented pressures facing local government at the moment; I think we need to take account of those as well.

The beauty of what's being proposed is that there's the capacity to respond in different circumstances. We've seen already the different interpretations of the four regions here today because their circumstances are different, their challenges are different, and they've responded in different ways. We know that this kind of approach is contestable. People often look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions based on the needs of their areas. So, I think that needs to be taken account of as well. At all times, authorities will be trying to streamline the bureaucracy around the development of CJCs, because inevitably, again with any tier of government, the tendency is for bureaucracy to grow, but the intention here is to streamline, rationalise, and bring coherence to arrangements. Within local government, again we've heard this morning arguments for subsidiarity, devolution, decentralising, and the approaches that have been adopted so far by the four different regions, in their different ways, emphasise that point.

Okay, Chris. Thank you very much. Dyfrig.

Un pwynt hollol ymarferol sydd ddim wedi cael ei godi o gwbl ydy'r hawl benthyca. Mi rydyn ni, wrth gwrs, yn gweithredu'r cynllun twf, gyda gwariant dros y 15 mlynedd nesaf o £240 miliwn. Ar hyn o bryd, dydyn ni ddim angen yr hawliau benthyg, ond mi fydd o'n angenrheidiol, dwi'n siŵr, wrth inni wynebu gwahaniaethau proffilio yn y gwariant a'r derbyn arian. Heb yr hawliau yna a'r benthyciadau treth gorfforaethol, treth ar werth ac eraill, fedrwn ni ddim gweithredu ein cynllun twf trwy'r cyd-bwyllgor. Bydd o ddim yn bosib inni wneud hynny.

Rydyn ni eisoes yn gwybod, yn ein cyllideb ddiwethaf, sydd yn gyllideb fechan iawn, iawn, gyda dim gweithredu, mewn difrif, heblaw am sefydlu'r corff, y bydd yna gost ychwanegol o £40,000, allan o wariant o £360,000, yn cael ei golli ar dreth ar werth. Felly, rydych chi'n gallu gweld beth yw graddfa'r broblem o hynny, felly. Diolch.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Dyfrig. And Daniel—Daniel Hurford.

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to extend on a couple of the points that Members had already made, and Chris likewise, around costs and tax, and obviously that's been made quite clearly, but it's the wider governance and capacity demands on the constituent authorities, who are generally loaning staff to the CJCs to establish what are, in effect, regional authorities. Councillor Siencyn has mentioned the constitution et cetera; quite significant governance arrangements have been set up. Audit, performance duties apply. Equalities, Welsh language, and future generations duties apply as well. So, it's important that the CJCs manage that in a proportionate fashion and that regulators, as well, understand that. We've had some very constructive discussions between ourselves, the CJCs, and the relevant regulators around what's expected and when, but I think that's a critical point as well, around expectation management.

There has been an awful lot of interest, inevitably, in the establishment of CJCs throughout the passage of the legislation, and prior to that, a lot of political interest within local government within the Senedd, regulators and stakeholders. It's important to recognise that, actually, these are very, very new bodies that have just been established, and have just had their core functions around planning and transport conferred upon them. As we've heard, there's likely to be a medium-term transition of some of the growth and city deal arrangements, so there is a lot of interest and expectation, but actually whilst the corporate bodies are there, working increasingly in parallel with city and growth arrangements, the delivery of the core functions around regional transport and regional planning are some years away and some years in development. So, they've hit the ground running as far as they can, but some of the core functions, as I say, will not be delivered for some time yet. So, I think it's just around expectations around what's going to be delivered and when.

Yes, okay, thank you very much, Daniel. Okay, thank you, all. We will move on, then, to Mabon. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd. Bore da, bawb, a diolch i chi i gyd am ddod ac ymuno efo ni yma y bore yma. Rydych chi wedi cyffwrdd ychydig ar waith elfennol a chanolog yr hyn sydd yn ddisgwyliedig o'r cyd-bwyllgorau yma, felly dwi eisiau mynd i mewn ychydig yn fwy i hynny. Os ydyn ni'n edrych ar, er enghraifft, cynllunio lleol, pa fanteision ydych chi'n gweld sydd o ddatblygu'r cyd-bwyllgor ar y cyd pan fo'n dod i gynllunio, a sut mae hynny yn mynd i ddyblygu'r gwaith neu effeithio ar gynlluniau datblygu sydd eisoes gan eich awdurdodau lleol chi ar y gweill? Os cawn ni gychwyn efo Anthony, am wn i.

Yes, sure. I very much see this as the start of us recognising more when we do our planning that people exist beyond the boundaries of our authorities. Too much, I think, when we develop regional plans, we act as if people never step foot outside of it. Take Torfaen, in my area; people live and work oblivious to those borders that we create as institutions, and I think the strategic plan can be a part of us in south-east Wales moving beyond that. So, there can be that regional framework and then we can, beneath that, set lighter local plans that take into account these things properly—how people move, where people live and work—so that it can be something that more reflects the realities of our region, as opposed to just having separate local development plans that sit beyond things.

There are examples, I think, where that can be of great benefit, where some areas have more available land for development than others, for example. We're next door to other areas. We're very light on land in Torfaen, developable land is very hard to come by. We've seen examples of companies looking for sites, and we want to work with our partners to make sure we keep them in south-east Wales, even if we can't keep them in Torfaen, because I'd rather have an employer expand in south-east Wales than see them move to England, quite frankly. So, I think there are those different areas where we can work together. I think the SDPs will get us doing that and help us to shape the places that we govern better.

I think it can also help—. Our planning departments have been, in many cases, decimated by the last 10 years of austerity and cutbacks. Any collaboration between those to give us a bit more resilience and a bit more partnership working I think will be useful, too.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Awn ni draw, am wn i, at Bryan yng Ngheredigion.

Bore da, Mabon. Ie, dwi'n credu bod bach o rwystredigaeth. Yn yr ardal dwi'n ei gynrychioli, mae gennym ni gynllun datblygu lleol i Geredigion a Phowys, ac mae'n beth da ein bod ni'n cydweithio gyda'r SDP hefyd. Yng Ngheredigion, does dim parc cenedlaethol gennym ni, lle mae gennych chi un ym Mhowys, er enghraifft, felly mae yna ganllawiau cynllunio gwahanol, efallai, i'r ardaloedd yna. Felly, mae hi jest yn fater o gydweithio a chael datrysiad a rhywbeth y gallwn ni ei ddysgu oddi wrth Powys a bod Powys yn gallu dysgu wrthym ni, a gobeithio y bydd yr SDP yn gallu cydlynu popeth o ran hynny.

Fel y dywedodd y siaradwr cynt, mae'n bwysig inni drio cadw ein pobl a denu'r sector breifat i mewn gyda ni hefyd, ac mae rôl y bartneriaeth sgiliau rhanbarthol yn bwysig yn fanna i ni gael gweld y skills gap efallai sydd gennym ni. Yn sgil hynny, y gobaith yw ein bod ni'n denu rhagor o fusnesau i'r ardal, achos hwb i'r economi rydyn ni'n moyn, ac efallai edrych ar safleoedd o fewn ein hardaloedd lle gallwn ni ddatblygu.

Dwi'n credu bod hwn yn plethu i mewn hefyd gyda'r rhwydwaith trafnidiaeth. Mae'n flin gen i, dwi wastad yn sôn am y rhwystredigaethau mewn ardaloedd gwledig, yn enwedig o ran teithio. O ran Ceredigion, mae gennym ni'r rheilffordd yn Aberystwyth, ac rydyn ni'n datblygu hwnnw ar hyn o bryd o ran cael ffreit. Felly, bydd y cydweithio rhwng Ceredigion a Phowys efallai trwy'r SDP yn bwysig iawn o ran hynny, o ran gweld sut y gallwn ni gynyddu'r defnydd o ffreit ar y rheilffyrdd er mwyn cael llai o lorïau. Ond wedyn mae Powys yn unigryw o'i gymharu â Cheredigion achos maen nhw'n ffinio gyda Lloegr hefyd. Felly, byddem ni yng Ngheredigion yn moyn gwybod beth sydd yn mynd ymlaen gyda'r bartneriaeth sydd rhwng Powys a'r ardaloedd yn Lloegr maen nhw mewn partneriaeth â nhw hefyd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn iti, Bryan. Rob.

Thank you. The key advantage that we see is obviously better co-ordination across the region in terms of delivery of major schemes. I think one of the challenges, previously, has been, if you look at things like Transforming Towns, where we're trying to support our town and city centres, you may have local authorities nearby that will make decisions that have a huge impact on your own local authority, but you'll have no control over that decision making. And I think the establishment of those strategic plans and a regional view of planning will help us better plan our communities that may be close to one another, but in different local authorities. The connectivity, the travel-to-work areas, the impact on how people live and the impact on businesses can be better planned where we've got that strategic arrangement in place, and I think that's one of the advantages I see.

I think the key thing that we need to guard against is, of course, making sure that things are determined at the right level and that we continue to have the local planning authorities making appropriate decisions on local matters and making sure that there is that subsidiarity approach so that local populations are not disenfranchised. But I think a strategic approach, well planned across a region, can only give us some benefits.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Rob. Dyfrig.

Diolch, Mabon. Pan ddywedaf fod y cwestiwn yn ddiddorol, mae'n golygu fy mod i ddim yn gwybod beth yw'r ateb, a dweud y gwir, onid ydy? Hynny ydy, dwi'n aros i weld beth fydd cyfeiriad y cynllunio strategol. Mae'n eithaf diddorol ein bod ni, yng Ngwynedd, wedi datblygu cynllun datblygu lleol ar y cyd ag Ynys Môn, ond mae'r ddau ohonom ni bellach wedi penderfynu mynd ar ein trywydd ein hunain, oherwydd bod ein dyheadau ni, hwyrach, yn wahanol.

Felly, mae'n dod nôl i'r cwestiwn: ble mae'r lefel priodol i wneud y penderfyniadau yna? Ac o safbwynt rhanbarth y gogledd, mae yna wahaniaethau anferthol rhwng siroedd y dwyrain a siroedd y gorllewin. Hynny ydy, mae gennym ni siroedd sydd â sylfaen ddiwydiannol gref, ac yn y gorllewin rydyn ni mewn ardaloedd gwledig iawn sydd â phroblemau ac atebion gwahanol iawn, iawn. Dwi'n cwestiynu ai ar lefel y gogledd cyfan y dylai fod yna gynllunio strategol. Ond yn y pen draw, beth bynnag yw'r cwestiynau sy'n codi ynglŷn â'r cynllunio, dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn beth mae'r cyd-bwyllgor yn ei ychwanegu ato fo—pa werth ychwanegol mae'r cyd-bwyllgor corfforedig yn ei rhoi inni ddatblygu ein swyddogaethau. Iawn, mae o'n gorff inni gydweithio ag o, ond gallem ni wneud hynny mewn dulliau eraill heb orfod creu haen arall o Lywodraeth, mewn difrif, a dwi'n cwestiynu hynny. Diolch.

Diolch, Dyfrig. A Daniel.

I don't have much more to add than what the members have pointed out, but I think the key points are really the integration of the regional planning and some of the regional economic development and transport planning. It is a key point in terms of the regional dimension and travel-to-work flows et cetera. So, it's the key point of integration. That was one of the main rationales for the Welsh Government when they introduced the CJCs—ensuring that those relevant functions were on the same geographical footprint. In doing so, the attempt was to streamline some of the planned bodies that were likely to be established—so, regional transport authorities and regional strategic planning bodies as well—so that they were wrapped up into one. But it's key around the integration of planning, transport and well-being on the same footprint.

Ac yn yr un modd, felly, Chris.

Diolch. Y gwirionedd yw bod lot o'r syniadau yma yn ddadleuol. Pan mae rhywun yn edrych ar unrhyw fath o ddatblygiadau dinasranbarthol ledled y byd, a'r ffordd maen nhw'n creu budd a thwf economaidd, mae rhai o'r elfennau yma'n bresennol—hynny yw, rhyw fath o gynllunio gofodol, system drafnidiaeth integredig, rhyw fath o seilwaith digidol, a gweithio ar y cyd. So, mae yna dystiolaeth bod gweithio yn y dull yma yn creu budd, yn creu twf economaidd. Ond wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid ystyried hefyd y cyd-destun a'r amgylchiadau. A beth ŷn ni wedi clywed y bore yma mewn gwirionedd yw bod y gwahanol ranbarthau yng Nghymru wedi dehongli y budd sy'n codi o'r math yma o drefnu a gweithio ar y cyd yn wahanol, ac mae hynny'n gwbl ddilys. Fe fydd y pwyllgorau yn debygol o ddatblygu mewn gwahanol ffyrdd yn ôl y galw. Y pwysigrwydd, byddwn i'n amau, yw ein bod ni drwy'r amser yn dirprwyo neu'n datganoli i'r lefel sy'n addas ar gyfer yr amgylchiadau lleol, a'r amgylchiadau sy'n bodoli ar y pryd. Diolch.

Yr elfen graidd arall, wrth gwrs, dŷch chi wedi cyffwrdd arni ydy trafnidiaeth—roedd Daniel wedi sôn ychydig am drafnidiaeth yn fanno. Rwy'n nodi bod Rob wedi sôn, o leiaf yn y de-orllewin, eich bod chi'n gweld hyn yn mynd i fod yn fanteisiol o ran datblygu'r metro. Oes yna unrhyw un arall eisiau cyfrannu ychydig ar yr elfen drafnidiaeth yna? Ydy'r cyd-bwyllgorau yma'n mynd i fod o fudd o ran sicrhau cydlynu a thrafnidiaeth yn y rhanbarth yna? Dwi'n gweld Bryan efo'i law i fyny i gychwyn.

Diolch. Yng nghyfarfod cychwynnol y CJC roedden ni'n gweld y rhwystredigaethau unwaith eto am ardal wledig sy'n ddibynnol ar gwmnïau bach i greu'r gwasanaethau bysus. Oherwydd efo llymder a phethau, a hefyd costau tanwydd, mae'r cwmnïau yna ei gweld hi'n anodd. Ond achos ein lleoliad ni yng ngorllewin Cymru, mae'n anodd i gael y cwmnïau mawr i fod yn rhan o'r gwasanaethau hynny, felly mae hwnna'n rwystredigaeth.

Un pwynt efallai—ac mae hwn efallai yn plethu'r cwbl gyda'i gilydd—o ran yr SDP a hefyd y CJCs yn gyfan gwbl yw'r mewnbwn oddi wrth swyddogion, a ydy'r adnoddau cywir yna, oes eisiau rhagor o adnodd arnom ni fel CJCs fel bod y swyddogion hyn yn gallu gwneud gwaith. Achos maen nhw yn gwneud tipyn o waith yn y cefndir.

O ran yr SDP, rwyt ti'n ddibynnol ar arbenigedd cynllunio hefyd. Dwi'n ymwybodol bod prinder dychrynllyd o swyddogion cynllunio ar draws Cymru, felly oes eisiau rhoi rhagor o adnodd dim ond ar gyfer yr elfen gynllunio yna? Ond na, yn bendant o ran y trafnidiaeth, ŷn ni wedi targedu hwnnw, ac yn ei weld e, a dweud y gwir, yn broblem. Dwi ddim yn siŵr sut allwn ni wneud datrysiad iddo fe ar hyn o bryd.

Diolch, Bryan. Rôn i'n gweld llaw Dyfrig i fyny.

Diolch. Eto, ar drafnidiaeth, mae yna bartneriaethau effeithiol iawn wedi bod yn y gorffennol yn cynllunio trafnidiaeth ar draws rhanbarthau, ac wrth gwrs, mi fydd is-bwyllgor o'r cyd-bwyllgor yn gwneud y gwaith yna—dwi'n gobeithio yr un mor effeithiol; o bosib yn fwy effeithiol.

Un problem sydd gen i yn benodol yng Ngwynedd ydy—ac mi fydd Mabon ap Gwynfor yn ymwybodol o hyn—yn ne'r sir, sef yr hen Feirionnydd, mae hi'n bwysig iawn i ni fod yn rhan o'r trafodaethau rhanbarthol yn y canolbarth. Dwi'n bryderus y gallem ni fod yn colli'r elfen yna o gydweithio. Mae yna gydweithio arbennig iawn wedi bod yn y gorffennol yn y canolbarth rhwng Gwynedd a Phowys a Cheredigion, ac mae'n hanfodol ein bod ni'n cadw'r cysylltiad yna.

Hen bregeth gen i, Mabon, fel y gwyddost ti, yw nad ydy'r A55 ddim yn berthnasol i ni yng nghanol Meirionnydd. Mae'r ffyrdd sy'n arwain i Amwythig ac i lawr yr A470 yn llawer iawn pwysicach. Dwi ddim yn siŵr faint o sylw mae'r rheini'n ei gael, a dwi yn bryderus am hynny, bod yr ôl troed, mewn difrif, a'r drafnidiaeth yn anghywir, a bod yn onest. Diolch.

Diolch, Dyfrig. Oes yna rywun arall sydd eisiau cyfrannu? Anthony.

Yes, happy to. Transport and how people move is key in this to me, and it's one of the key reasons why planning needs to be within the fold as well. It's because, given all that we know about the climate, how we can effect modal shift is vital. We can't do that on our own as local authorities within south-east Wales—I'm firmly of that belief. We need to work together to do it.

Subsidiarity is key, some decisions, as Dyfrig and others have said, are best made locally, but, in transport as in planning, there are things that, I believe, we can't do on our own and need to be addressed regionally. But that does mean that different areas will have different answers. Bryan or Dyfrig's areas are very different from Rob's or mine, and that will mean that there are differences in how we take this forward, quite rightly.

Diolch, Anthony. Oes yna gyfraniad arall ar yr elfen drafnidiaeth? Bryan.

Diolch am ddod nôl. Mae eisoes wedi bod sôn yn fanna o ran llwybrau bysus, er enghraifft. O ran ceisiadau cynllunio nawr, yn enwedig gyda thai fforddiadwy, mae'n hanfodol bod y ceisiadau yna'n dod gerbron lle mae llwybr bws. Os ŷn ni'n ei gweld hi'n anodd i gynnal y gwasanaeth bws yna mewn ardaloedd gwledig, mae hynny'n cael knock-on effect wedyn ar geisiadau cynllunio i'r dyfodol a hefyd y cynllun datblygu lleol. Felly, mae hon yn elfen mor bwysig, lle mae trafnidiaeth yn plethu i mewn gyda chynllunio.

Okay, Mabon? I think we'd probably better move on at this stage. Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you, Chair. Can I just touch on something that's been said already? Dyfrig and Bryan, I'm getting the feeling that rural areas are differently impacted. Dyfrig, what you're saying—. It needs to be right at the beginning, so, do you think that your region, north Wales, is maybe too large as one region, one CJC? I'm just asking for your views on it. It seems to me that you're saying that north Wales and north-east are very different in character and that you feel that there is a strong connection with west Wales and Ceredigion and that area. And the transport of north-east Wales goes cross-border quite a lot and there is that connection with the Mersey Dee Alliance as well. Is this going to be an issue all the way through, because it needs to be right at the beginning, I think? Is this something that needs to be raised? And regarding transport, you're getting help from Transport for Wales, and then also—.

My question is supposed to be on administration and staffing, and, originally, when these were set up, the idea was that it would be cost saving, because it would save duplication of staffing in 22 different authorities, and then there would be a cost saving and that would help to fund these CJCs. But it sounds to me that you're struggling with staffing after we've had 10 years of austerity, et cetera, especially with planning and transport officers, et cetera. So, would you say that there isn't a cost-saving element any more, because you haven't got duplication in each authority, and you might be struggling—? Would you be struggling to be able to deliver at CJC level and local level and afford duplicate staff as well? There are lots of questions there, very general, just thrown at you, so—

There is quite a lot there, Carolyn—

Sorry, but it's been very interesting, this conversation. Thank you.

Okay. Over to Dyfrig, then.

Diolch yn fawr, Carolyn, am y cwestiynau. Dwi'n credu bod rhanbarth y gogledd—wel, a dweud y gwir, mae chwe sir y gogledd wedi penderfynu dod at ei gilydd ar draws y gogledd i weithredu ein cynlluniau datblygu economaidd trwy'r cynllun twf a chynlluniau eraill, gobeithio. Roedden ni hefyd yn credu bod gweithredu ar draws y gogledd ar lefel sgiliau yn bwysig, a hefyd yn y maes cymorth i fusnes. Rydyn ni'n cydweithio ar y materion hynny. Roedden ni'n awyddus ar y dechrau i gael rheolaeth ar y ddau faes yna'n arbennig. Felly, mae yna feysydd rydyn ni'n gytûn fel chwe sir sydd yn well i'w gweithredu ar draws y gogledd. Rwy'n ymwybodol iawn, o safbwynt yr economi, bod y llwybr yna ar draws y ffin i ogledd-orllewin Lloegr yn un pwysig iawn, iawn, yn yr un modd ag y mae'r llwybr ar draws i Iwerddon o Gaergybi yn bwysig i ni hefyd. Felly, dwi'n hollol fodlon ein bod ni yn gytûn ar sawl maes, mai ar lefel y gogledd y dylem ni weithredu.

Mae gen i gwestiwn am gynllunio strategol. Dwi ddim yn gwybod; mi gaf i weld sut mae hwnnw'n datblygu. O safbwynt staffio, mae yna elfen, siŵr o fod pan rydyn ni'n gwneud y gwaith strategol, yn sicr ar gynllunio, lle y gallwn ni gael arbenigedd ar draws y gogledd na fuasai gan y chwe sir ar ben eu hunain, yn sicr. Dwi ddim yn siŵr a ydy hynny yn mynd i arbed arian. Rydyn ni'n gorfod gwneud gwaith ar y cynlluniau strategol beth bynnag, sydd yn ychwanegol i'r hyn roedden ni'n arfer gwneud, felly dwi ddim yn siŵr a oes arbediad ariannol yna.

Ar hyn o bryd, ac fel sydd wedi cael ei ddweud eisoes, rydyn ni yn y dyddiau cynnar iawn, iawn. Rydyn ni'n dal i weithio ar sefydlu y cyd-bwyllgor a gwneud yn siŵr ei fod o'n gweithio yn effeithiol ac yn gost effeithiol. Mae'r cwestiynau eraill yma ynglŷn â pha effaith mae sefydlu'r cyd-bwyllgor yn mynd i'w gael ar ddatblygiad economaidd, ar gynllunio, ar drafnidiaeth—fe wnawn ni'n gorau i sicrhau eu bod nhw yn gweithredu yn effeithiol. Ond, dwi'n ailadrodd, dwi'n ansicr iawn ynglŷn â beth yw'r gwerth ychwanegol y mae cyd-bwyllgor yn ei gynnig i ni. Dwi'n agored fy meddwl i gael fy narbwyllo fel arall. Dwi ddim yn siŵr os ydw i wedi ateb y cwestiynau i gyd yn fanna. Atgoffwch fi o'r lleill, os ydych chi eisiau.

It was just if Transport for Wales have been helping as well, on the transport. Otherwise, thank you—yes, you have.

Okay. I think Bryan wanted to come in, Carolyn. Yes, Bryan.

Ie, diolch, Carolyn. O ran y canolbarth, yn edrych ar Geredigion a Phowys, dwy ardal wledig, ond mae'n ardal enfawr hefyd. Mae arweiniad newydd i gael ym Mhowys hefyd, James Gibson-Watt, a dwi'n teimlo bod cydweithio da iawn rhwng y ddau ohonom ni. Mae e'n cydnabod efallai yn y weinyddiaeth ddiwethaf, roedd yna fwy o agosatrwydd gyda Phowys tuag at Loegr, yn hytrach na Cheredigion, ond dwi wedi cael fy argyhoeddi ei fod ef am weithio mwy gyda Cheredigion na Lloegr.

O ran daearyddiaeth, dwi'n gweld bod heriau rhywbeth tebyg gyda ni gyda'r ardaloedd arfordirol fel sir Fôn a Gwynedd. Rydyn ni'n cydweithio gyda'r cynllun Arfor, er enghraifft, ac rydyn ni'n teimlo bod yr un rhwystredigaethau a'r un heriau gyda ni, sydd yn wahanol i'r heriau rydyn ni'n gweld gyda Phowys, efallai. Ond, fel rwy'n dweud, mae'r cydweithio yna rhwng y swyddogion a'r aelodau etholedig yn dda iawn rhwng Ceredigion a Phowys beth bynnag. Fel rwy'n dweud, byddwn i ddim yn moyn rhedeg nhw lawr o ran y bartneriaeth na dim byd, ond rwy'n credu y byddwn i'n bersonol yn hoffi dymuno gweithio'n agosach gyda'r ardal Arfor yna hefyd, dim ond o achos pethau fel twristiaeth a'r effaith mae hwnnw'n cael ar ein cymunedau bregus gwledig ni.

Okay. And staffing as well, because I know that you had the choice of having a lead authority model, which you seem to be taking across all areas, or investing in extra staff as well, as its moves forward. So, just, really, how you're finding that with your staffing.

Fel dywedais i'n gynt, mae lot o oriau wedi mynd i mewn i'r pwyllgorau hyn, a dwi yn teimlo—. Dydyn ni ddim wedi cael cyfarfod ar yr SDP eto—byddwn ni'n cael hwnnw dydd Gwener, felly bydd hwnnw, gobeithio, yn bwydo'n ôl. Dwi yn ymwybodol eu bod nhw'n gweithio'n galed dros ben, a dwi'n credu bod eisiau'r adnodd ychwanegol yna o ran staffio, neu jest caniatáu iddyn nhw roi mwy o oriau i mewn i'r datblygiadau hyn. Achos dwi ddim yn siŵr beth sy'n digwydd yn San Steffan o ddiwrnod i ddiwrnod, ond dwi yn wir bryderus y byddwn ni'n colli arian o'r grantiau yma, ac os caf i rywbeth pendant ein bod ni yn mynd i gael yr arian, grêt, ond dwi'n credu byddai'r swyddogion yn torri calon pe buasem ni'n colli mas rhyw ffordd ar yr arian hyn sy'n ddyledus i ni.

Okay. Dyfrig, did you want to come back?

Mae o'n bwynt pwysig, onid ydy? Hynny ydy, mi allen ni fod yn cyflogi prif weithredwr i'r cyd-bwyllgor ar yr un lefel â phrif weithredwr cyngor sir gyda—dwi'n ddim yn siŵr iawn—degfed rhan o'r cyfrifoldebau neu lai hyd yn oed, a dwi'n gweld hynny'n wastraffus. Dyna pam rydyn ni'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad lle dŷn ni'n bwriadu secondio staff i mewn i wneud gwaith, yn sicr ar lefel prif weithredwr. Rydyn ni yn bwriadu cyflogi dau aelod o staff ar gyfer cynlluniau trafnidiaeth, ond mwy na thebyg, mai secondiadau o rai o'n cynghorau ni fydd y rheini, ac nid staff ychwanegol, dwi'n mawr obeithio.

Okay. Thank you. Rob.

Thank you. Obviously, I'm not going to comment on mid Wales or north Wales—the decisions that those bodies will make are theirs to make. I want to touch on the general point, though. I think the question you posed around potentially some savings through the establishment of the CJCs, I think we've got to be very careful with that. It's clear that there aren't functions that are stopping in local authorities as a result of the CJCs; the CJCs add a new layer of co-ordination and collaboration and that doesn't stop us still having to discharge all of the responsibilities that we have as local authorities. So, there isn't—. By creating a CJC, stopping something happening that you then have a saving from in local authorities—that isn't the case.

Outside of that, of course, it's then how you fund and organise to support your CJC activities. Like Anthony referenced—and we've done the same in the south-west, as I said—we've tried to make decisions whereby we're using existing structures and existing personnel to carry out the functions that we have. We are not intending to appoint a separate chief executive; I think that would be the wrong thing to do personally, not only because of the financial additional costs, but also, it would create a new chief executive who would then be, essentially, on parity with the existing chief executives in the local authorities, and that would create a whole host of administrative considerations.

The final point I'd make is, of course, when the CJC discussions were taking place before they were enacted in legislation, there were commitments given that there would be a push to try and ensure that governance, audit requirements, assurance, scrutiny, all those other things, would be proportionate and that there wouldn't be this huge new industry built around CJCs. I think the proportionality has to be looked at there, because, as has been said by colleagues, the responsibilities that we've inherited, or have been allocated to us as part of the CJCs, are similar to those for local authorities, despite the spend and the staffing elements being a lot less currently. So, I think proportionality has to be there, and I would hope that Welsh Government will deliver on its commitment to make sure that we aren't tied up in huge amounts of bureaucracy, which becomes expensive and time consuming for the new regional bodies.

Okay. Thanks.

Carolyn, I think Anthony wanted to come in briefly as well.

Thanks, Carolyn. Just to agree with a couple of things that Rob said on cost savings, there may well be long-term benefits, but I think it's very tempting at the moment, with the current economic climate, to present things as solutions to the funding gap that aren't solutions to the funding gap. I wish this was, but it's not.

I very much think these should be viewed as partnerships, not organisations in themselves. The evidence is that what works is strong partnerships, not creating organisations in and of themselves.

And, just lastly, the impact of geography is huge, as has been explained by our colleagues today. I think we have to look around the successful examples from elsewhere in the world. From what I've seen, the evidence there is that no one standard model works; it depends on the region and its nature. So, we shouldn't try and think that one standard model works. That's not the evidence from around the world. But what that evidence does show is there is something about scale, and there's something about the range of different things that we do and how they're best suited to different circumstances. It comes back to this point about subsidiarity and economic development. There is evidence that there's some value of scale that is different to the benefits of taking local decisions. So, how we work on that, I think, is important. But, yes, I think it's very important for us to look around at what's worked elsewhere in the world, and that certainly doesn't suggest that there's one model that fits, especially as none of our regions, actually—but some of our regions emphatically more than others—fits the model of a single, urban centre, and concentric circles from there out. Both Rob's and my region have valleys communities, have different settlements, so they're not like some city regions that are just a single centre and a periphery. And it's even more so if you look at mid and north Wales—they don't fit that straitjacket at all. So, I think we need to be sensitive to how we take forward different regions, because they will require different answers.

Okay, Carolyn? Chris Llewelyn, did you want to come in?

Yes, it's on Anthony's point, I suppose. We mentioned earlier the way that city regions generate prosperity, and the evidence around the world, but what we also know is that that approach doesn't always work in rural or sparsely populated areas, and in those circumstances it's more challenging. These are issues that everybody around the world struggles with.

Just in terms of some of Carolyn's questions, it is important to remember that a lot of the regional partnership arrangements that exist currently are bottom up, as it were—they have been generated by the regions and councils involved. As to the transport consortia, there were successful regional transport arrangements in place in the past—SWITCH, SEWTA, Trac and Taith operated very successfully. In north Wales, there is a coterminosity about a lot of the public services—health, police, local authorities, fire and rescue, and so on—which brings a coherence to their arrangements that isn't always obvious elsewhere. Then, in terms of the workforce issues, the reality is there are workforce challenges in every single area within local government at the moment, whether it's education, social care, housing. So, it's worth bearing that in mind as well. A lot of the issues that are being grappled with here prevail in other service areas as well.

Okay, thank you. We'd better move on to Joel James. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious that quite a few of the questions that I wanted to ask you about—so, funding and resources—have already been asked, but I wanted to pick your brains about the regional transport planning element of the CJCs. I'm conscious that, back in July this year, I think it was the south Wales west CJC mentioned that they wouldn't be able to deliver the work programmes based on existing levels of funding, and that there would be a need to lobby the UK and Welsh Governments for extra resources. I think that's been confirmed, then, by all the other CJCs, and I just wanted to get some idea of the level of resource or funding you would require more from the Welsh Government or the UK Government, really, just to tackle those planned work programmes that you have in mind. I don't know who wants to come in on that first.

Shall I start on that one, Chair, if that's okay, given the south-west was referenced? I think you're right to draw that item out. The position for us is we've written to the Welsh Government in terms of support for the work to bring together the transport plan. So, that's in the region of several hundred thousand pounds we're looking for in terms of a contribution from Welsh Government to help us undertake the work that's required for that. Obviously, delivery of things like a metro system with many elements to it, including the rail network, the creation of the stations, the transition to new bus services, potentially new vehicles, hydrogen vehicles, has multiple elements to it, and that's where were referencing that, clearly, that is beyond the remit of any council to deliver.

So, circa the first phase of our metro would be looking at around £250 million for the creation of stations through Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, and then, obviously, changes to some of the connections to make sure that we could run more services, as I said, to the rest of the UK. Outside of that, we're having separate discussions through Transport for Wales, although Transport for Wales obviously are heavily involved in the rail discussions, and Welsh Government around what we can do to trial and then implement hydrogen bus services in the region, which would be connected, obviously, to the rail services to create that holistic travel network. Obviously, outside of those modes of transport, there's the work that all of the authorities have been doing in terms of active travel, making sure that those also connect to the ambitions for stations and connectivity points. That work has multiple funding streams to it, but the point that you raised is one that is still there. So, there are two elements to the funding that we're after at the moment: one is the funding to create the plan to deliver, and then, secondly, the work that's going on separately, which is actually the Government funding the infrastructure works to create the actual network.

Okay. Would anyone else like to add anything to what Rob has just told us? Bryan.

Wrth edrych ar drafnidiaeth, mae'n rhaid i ni edrych ar yr ôl troed carbon, ac mae hwnna'n mynd i fod yn her i ni yn bendant mewn ardal wledig. Mae yna ddibyniaeth yn mynd i fod ar geir, beth bynnag, ac mae hynny'n dod i mewn â phwyntiau gwefru trydanol. Dyw'r networks o ran y trydan ddim yn ddigonol mewn ardaloedd gwledig o ran y quick chargers, er enghraifft, achos mae eisiau'r three phase ar y rheini, ac mewn lot o'n hardaloedd gwledig ni does dim three phase gyda ni. Felly, mae hwnna'n her yn ei hunan, ac felly dyw e ddim mor rhwydd â dweud, 'Cewch wared â'ch car; defnyddiwch y bws'. Dwi'n mynd nôl at yr heriau ddywedais i ynghynt, ble mae'n anodd cynnal gwasanaeth bws oherwydd dyw'r cwmnïau bach sy'n rhedeg bysys ddim yn gallu ei wneud e o ran eu cyllidebau nhw, ac wedyn mae'r cwmnïau mawr yn pallu dod i ardal wledig. Felly, mae hwnna'n rhywbeth sydd eisiau i ni edrych arno.

Dwi eisoes wedi sôn am y freight gyda'r trên, a gobeithio gallwn ni ddatblygu ar hwnnw er mwyn cael llai o lorïau ar ein hewlydd ni. Felly, mae'r cydweithio rhwng Powys a dros y ffin yn Lloegr yn mynd i fod yn hollbwysig o ran creu'r cyswllt yna, er enghraifft. Ond, mae hi'n her, a does dim pwynt gwadu hynny. Diwedd y gân yw bums on seats o ran trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, ac mae demograffi canolbarth Ceredigion yn ein herbyn ni, yn enwedig yng Ngheredigion ble mae'r boblogaeth yn gostwng beth bynnag. Felly, mae hwnna'n sialens ychwanegol, efallai, sydd yn wahanol i'r rhanbarthau mwy trefol.

Okay, Bryan. Thank you very much. I see Dyfrig's hand raised. Yes.

Diolch. Dwi ddim yn meddwl fedraf i ateb y cwestiwn yn uniongyrchol, ond jest i ddweud yn gyffredinol—ac i ryw raddau, ategu beth mae Bryan yn dweud—mae cwestiwn trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus mewn ardal wledig yn wahanol iawn, iawn i drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus mewn ardaloedd trefol. Prin iawn, mae'n debyg, ydy'r teithiau bws sydd yn fasnachol mewn ardaloedd gwledig, felly mae'n rhaid cael sybsidi i redeg y bysiau yma. Ar yr un llaw, mae'r Llywodraeth yn tynnu nôl o wella isadeiledd ein ffyrdd ni mewn ardaloedd gwledig, ac, ar y llaw arall, does gennym ni ddim system trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus ddigonol i wasanaethu ein pobl. Ac mae Bryan yn iawn—mi fydd ceir yn bwysig i ardaloedd gwledig beth bynnag, ond mae cael system drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus effeithiol mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn mynd i olygu buddsoddiad sylweddol iawn, iawn, a dwi ddim yn siŵr a ydy'r Llywodraeth yn deall hynny ar hyn o bryd. Diolch.

Okay. Thank you, all, very much. We move again, then, to Sam Rowlands. Sam.

Thanks, Chair. Morning, everybody. I really appreciate your time this morning—I know it's precious. And that's probably my starting point, really. As council leaders, because of the proliferation of regional bodies—it was mentioned earlier that you've got regional partnership boards; you've got public services boards; I know, in north Wales, but I'm not sure about other places, you've got things like the regional leadership board, which is always a delight; and now the corporate joint committees, with sub-committees underneath; and you have your city and growth deals as well—just as council leaders, and the four of you, I suppose, as leaders of leaders, how do you see that time strain on you as leaders and your ability to make sure you're serving the councils that you're elected to lead? How do you see that? Happy for someone to kick off.

Bryan.

Can you hear us, Bryan?

I don't think Bryan's hearing me at the moment.

Sorry, Chair.

Mae hi'n dipyn o her, a dweud y gwir wrthych chi. Eto, i ail-ddweud, dwi'n arweinydd newydd ers mis Mai—y tro cyntaf i Geredigion gael Plaid Cymru'n rhedeg y cyngor. Mae'n dyheadau ni fel plaid wleidyddol yn cael mynd ar y back burner achos mae cymaint o waith bara menyn, dyddiol o redeg cyngor yn cael y flaenoriaeth, ac fel y dylai. Felly, mae'r sialensiau sy'n ein hwynebu ni i gyd fel arweinyddion yn enfawr. Felly, mae'r dyheadau rŷn ni'n moyn fel unigolion, efallai, a hefyd fel pleidiau, yn gorfod cael sedd gefn tra'n bod ni'n wynebu'r heriau ariannol sydd gyda ni—heriau sydd yn bwrw pob un yn ein hardaloedd ni. Ac os oes yna brosiectau a chynlluniau gyda'r awdurdodau eraill, mae'n rhaid cwestiynu a ydy'r rheini'n gallu dod ymlaen nawr gyda'r heriau ariannol sy'n ein hwynebu ni.

Ond mae lot o amser yn mynd. Amser nes i seino lan i fod yn arweinydd, roeddwn i'n gweld y gwaith a oedd o mlaen i, o ran gwaith y cyngor, ond wedyn mae'r fforwm mor bwysig o ran y WLGA, Chris; dwi mor falch fy mod i'n gallu clywed y rhwystredigaethau sydd gydag arweinyddion eraill drwy'r platfform hynny. Ond mae amser yn mynd i'r cyfarfodydd hynny, ac mae amser yn mynd i Tyfu Canolbarth Cymru, ac mae amser yn mynd i Arfor hefyd. Mae'n bwysig bod yn rhan o'r pethau hyn, ond mae popeth arall yn gorfod cael sedd gefn tra'n bod ni'n sôn am y pethau arall hefyd.

Okay. Anthony.

Yes, happy to come in next. This comes back to what I said at first—we just need to focus on impact, really, and we have to focus on what difference we're making, not just on how many meetings we're having. I think that's key, because we have to remember the difference is made in most things between meetings, not during them. And if all we're doing is servicing more and more meetings, then—. But partnerships are vital, whatever system you have, and I think that's one of our jobs as leaders, to make sure we're talking to other organisations, not just other councils but other public service organisations and other organisations in our communities. And we'd have to do that whatever. So, as much as I don't like all the acronyms, I don't see any individual organisation as creating more work, as leader, but we just have to make sure we're focused on what's making a difference.

I think, during the pandemic, the partnership working between different leaders and other levels of government gave us a model to work from. And that wasn't built around, necessarily, formal meetings and structures; it was built around us getting together and talking through things, and working together. And just as one last thing, I think we have to make sure in this that we're not just part of lots of partnerships at a leader and chief executive level that don't then filter down through to ways of working in our organisations. We can just say things as leaders, or say things as chief executives, and think that that magically means they happen. Unless we've got the operational level in our councils working in partnership in the right way, it's just hot air. So, I think the key is that we don't just let these things sit at the top level; we make sure that all levels of our organisation have bought into the principles of how we're going to work in partnership. So, I think that's key. So, it's impact, partnerships and making sure there's some throughput. And then I think all this is worthwhile. If it's just a case of creating more organisation for organisation's sake, it's not.

Okay, Anthony. Thank you very much. Yes, Sam.

Can I—?

Yes, Sam.

Can I, before we bring in—? I know others want to comment on this, Chair, but Anthony's raised some really important points that I just want to perhaps just dig a little further on. Because you mentioned it earlier, actually, Anthony, as well, viewing CJCs in particular as partnership and not—I think you said rather than organisations in of themselves. But I guess that's the point of CJCs, that they are organisations in of themselves, aren't they? They're not a voluntary partnership, which, often, as you say, probably works best. And as you said, in the pandemic, that was a great example where people came together voluntarily. So, just a point on that: I think that part of the frustration I'm hearing from members is CJCs were thrust upon, have been thrust upon, local authorities, rather than organically happening amongst local authorities. But, just going back to the point of others in the organisation understanding and feeling the effect of these partnership organisations, do you think, if we were sat here with a couple of ordinary members of the council, whether it's in Torfaen or wherever, do you think they would understand what this is about, corporate joint committees? Do you think someone who's been elected, even in previous terms, would feel that they're making a difference in the work of corporate joint committees?

That is a big challenge for us as leaders to get that understanding going, because, inevitably, there is some exchange of hard power for influence when you work in a partnership, because you're not doing things directly, and therefore, as a backbench councillor, you may think that your power is diminished. I think we need to show how that transfer of hard power to influencing a bigger whole is worth while. You ask about CJCs and their origins; I think this is more about attitude than origins. It's how we go into those CJCs and how we work them, I think, that matters most, and we can work them as partnerships, as opposed to—. And the other thing is, we just need to make sure, within that pattern of regional partnership, we know who does what best, so that we avoid duplication and we avoid things falling through the gaps. Our regional partnership board is largely focused on the health and social care issues. Our PSBs, our CJCs, we need to make sure that they're all doing what they do best and all understand what each other are doing, rather than getting very crowded on the stage.

All right, Sam? I think Rob as well. Rob.

Yes. Thank you, Chair. I know, obviously, Sam was the leader of Conwy, so he knows the situation in local government very well, and I know a number of other members on the committee were councillors. I think, to answer Sam's most recent question, the same could be said, though, of all regional structures. I think the point is that the more broad the structure, probably the less there is in terms of visibility of some of the details of the working. But, certainly, for my own council, members understand what CJCs are, they do city deal arrangements, and they're aware of what we're doing there. I'd come back to the same point Anthony made, though, around impact, and it's one that shouldn't be lost, especially after the COVID pandemic, because the way in which local government responded in COVID was remarkable, and the closeness of working between ourselves and Welsh Government was really something we should all be really proud of in terms of how we delivered, making sure that we were really agile in making sure people were supported during the pandemic. Why I'm raising that in this context is because I came away from that experience, as I'm sure others did, thinking, 'Well, hang on a second, I didn't run to this structure or this structure or this structure to get stuff done', and I think that's the lens I now look at some of the way in which we work—to say, 'Well, actually, when we were in a crisis, if that wasn't what we used, why on earth are we persisting with it?' And I don't mean that in the context of CJCs, because I do think CJCs, as I said in my other comments, have a real role to play here, but I think there are some other structures in Wales that we need to take a look at that I don't think serve us very well. And I think, in terms of that impact and making sure we use our time wisely to get the most delivered for the people of Wales, looking at historic structures is something we should probably take a bit of time to do and see if we can streamline some of that.

Okay, thank you very much. And I think Dyfrig wanted to come in as well.

Mae gen i gydymdeimlad efo cwestiwn Sam. Hynny ydy, o'm mhrofiad i, pan ddes i'n gadeirydd uchelgais y gogledd, doeddwn i ddim yn sylweddoli cymaint o waith oedd hynny yn ei olygu, ac amser. A dwi ddim yn cwyno am y gwaith yna, mae hi'n rôl dwi wedi dewis i’w chymryd arnaf fy hun, ond dwi yn deall bod yna wahaniaeth mawr rhwng gwaith arweinydd—ac, fel mae Sam yn dweud, arweinydd ar arweinyddion—ac aelodau mainc gefn. I ateb y cwestiwn, petaswn i'n rhoi dau aelod mainc gefn o'ch blaen chi heddiw a gofyn y cwestiwn, 'Beth mae’r cyd-bwyllgor yn mynd i’w wneud a'i gyfrannu at ein gwaith ni fel cyngor?', fydden nhw ddim yn gwybod, dwi ddim yn credu. A'r cwestiwn cyson rydw i'n ei gael gan fy aelodau, ac yn deg iddyn nhw ei ofyn, ydy, 'Beth yn union ydych chi'n ei gyflawni, a sut mae hynny yn gwella bywydau fy etholwyr i yn fy ward i?' Rŵan, dydy hwnnw ddim yn gwestiwn hawdd i'w ateb yn aml iawn.

Mae'r pwynt mae Rob wedi’i wneud ynglŷn â'r berthynas â'r Llywodraeth yn un pwysig iawn, dwi'n credu. Mae hynny yn step change, i ddefnyddio'r term, sylweddol. Cyn COVID fuodd yna erioed gymaint o gysylltiad gyda'r Llywodraeth. Fuodd yna erioed gymaint o ddeialog gyda Gweinidogion y Llywodraeth, ac mae hynny, wrth gwrs, i'w groesawu'n fawr. Mae rhywun yn teimlo ein bod ni'n gallu lleisio ein barn i Lywodraeth yn uniongyrchol ac weithiau rydym ni'n gallu dylanwadu ar benderfyniadau'r Llywodraeth.

Hefyd, dwi'n ymwybodol bod arweinwyr mewn sefyllfaoedd gwahanol. Dwi'n digwydd bod mewn sefyllfa wleidyddol eithaf cadarn. Ydw, dwi'n cael fy herio gan aelodau fy ngrŵp fy hun, yn fwy o bosib nag ydw i gan aelodau wrthblaid, ond dwi mewn sefyllfa gadarn, a dwi'n credu bod yna rôl i'r dirprwy arweinydd a'r aelodau cabinet i ddal yr holl aelodau mainc gefn ynghyd ac i egluro eu gwaith iddyn nhw ac egluro beth sy'n digwydd ar lefel rhanbarthol ac ar lefel cenedlaethol. Dwi yn credu bod yna le pwysig iawn i arweinwyr fod yn cyfleu negeseuon i Lywodraethau—y ddwy Lywodraeth a dweud y gwir—ac yn cynrychioli. Mae'n fraint, onid yw, ac yn anrhydedd, i mi fod yma heddiw yn cynrychioli gogledd Cymru. Wel, dwi'n falch iawn o gael gwneud hynny. Mae o'n creu tensiynau, ond rydym ni'n gallu delio efo fo. Diolch, Sam.

Okay. And Bryan.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Pwynt ychwanegol ichi, Sam—yn fy rôl i fel cadeirydd ar y PSB lleol, dwi'n adrodd yn ôl i un o'r pwyllgorau craffu o fewn y cyngor a hefyd mae cadeirydd y pwyllgor yna'n eistedd i mewn fel arsylwr. Ond, o ran y CJCs, i fod yn gwbl onest gyda chi, dwi’n dal i ddysgu o ran fy rôl i fel cadeirydd y CJC. Ond, o ran aelodau y meinciau cefn, fydden nhw ddim yn gwybod dim byd am y CJC. Felly, bydden i'n croesawu rhyw fath o arweiniad o ran y broses o adrodd yn ôl i bwyllgorau craffu o fewn Cyngor Sir Ceredigion a beth ddylai’r drefn fod o ran hynny.

All right, Sam?

Yes, thank you, and thank you for those responses. I agree, this is certainly a challenge—ensuring that things filter down, appropriately, to people who are rightfully elected in their own right to represent residents in their ward at the same level as leaders are.

And then perhaps the final question from me is in relation to how you are seeking to co-opt members onto CJCs, and how that's working with other public bodies, whether it be in health, health services, or perhaps in the universities, and what the appetite is like from those other public bodies to really engage and be involved with the work of corporate joint committees. I appreciate things are still fairly early days, but just perhaps an initial observation as to the engagement of other public bodies with corporate joint committees.

Okay. I can see Bryan with his hand raised. Bryan.

Ie, unwaith eto, mae gwneuthuriad y gwahanol CJCs yn wahanol i bob ardal. O ran y canolbarth, mae gyda chi Hywel Dda a Powys fel byrddau iechyd. Felly, dwi'n credu byddai'n anodd i gydlynu hynny, er byddai'u mewnbwn nhw yn hollbwysig. Dwi'n credu, o ran y PSB, mae gyda ni Hywel Dda fel bwrdd iechyd yn eistedd ar y PSB, ond anaml iawn rŷn ni'n cael cynrychiolaeth lawn o'r bwrdd iechyd yna yn eistedd ar y corff hwnnw achos maen nhw'n cael eu tynnu i'r tri PSB arall, boed yn sir Benfro neu sir Gar hefyd. Felly, mae eisiau ystyried ymrwymiad y gwahanol gyrff achos maen nhw yr un mor brysur â ni. Felly, byddai'n rhaid edrych ar bob ardal yn unigol o ran cynrychiolaeth y cyrff hynny ar y gwahanol CJCs.

And Rob.

Yes, for us, as I said earlier, we've sort of duplicated our city region arrangements. So, we've co-opted the health boards—the two health boards in the area—and the universities onto the board. We've moved across our economic strategy board that advises the city deal on the economy, so those arrangements transfer across to the CJC, and we look to enhance the economic strategy board membership by adding sector leads to give us further, broader economic advice. Obviously, we've got the national parks as part of our arrangements, and we've allocated them voting rights as well in certain areas, particularly planning. So, again, we've moved as fast as we can to make sure that we have that full suite of both core and co-opted members.

Okay. Thank you all very much. Sorry, Dyfrig, did you want to add something?

Jest i gadarnhau, felly, mae gennym ni bartneriaeth gyda bwrdd economaidd y gogledd, uchelgais y gogledd, sy'n cynnwys y colegau, sy'n cynnwys, yn bwysig iawn, y sector breifat. A mi fydd yn rhaid i'r bartneriaeth yna barhau; maen nhw'n rhan hanfodol o'n trafodaethau ni er does ganddyn nhw ddim bleidlais—mae'n rhaid inni eu cynnwys nhw. Does yna ddim cwestiwn am eu cynnwys nhw—ar yr is-bwyllgor, wrth gwrs.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, and thank you all very much for coming in to give evidence today, either remotely or in person. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Diolch yn fawr i bawb.

Hwyl fawr.

Thank you.