Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

I'm going to go left to right.

Rwy'n mynd at Siân yn gyntaf.

Fy enw i yw Siân Gale, rwy'n gweithio i undeb BECTU a dwi'n gweithio ar gynllun sgiliau o'r enw CULT Cymru. Mae hwn yn gynllun rhwng BECTU, Equity, Undeb y Cerddorion ac Undeb yr Ysgrifennwyr, ac mae wedi'i ariannu'n fwyaf drwy Gronfa Ddysgu Undebau Cymru, WULF.

Diolch, Siân. Andy.

Hi, I'm Andy Warnock, I'm the regional organiser for the Musicians' Union in Wales and south-west England.

Thank you so much. Simon.

I'm Simon Curtis, I'm the national official for Equity for Wales and south-west England.

Thank you so much. Carwyn.

Bore da. I'm Carwyn Donavan, I'm a negotiations officer working for the BECTU sector of Prospect, and I also chair the Wales Federation of Entertainment Unions.

Thank you all so much. We've got quite a lot of questions. Please don't feel like you have to answer every question, but, if you do want to come in, if you'd just indicate whenever you'd like to. We'll go straight to questions.

Fe wnaf i fynd yn gyntaf at Tom Giffard.

Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody, and thank you for joining us. I want to start by asking what assessment you've made of the health of the creative industries workforce at the moment.

Shall I start? It's very fragile, I would say, and really problematic. Help Musicians UK did a survey recently that they published, and 49 per cent of musicians were very or extremely concerned they'd be forced to leave the industry, 35 per cent were slightly or somewhat worried, and that was an increase of 22 per cent from last autumn, 60 per cent of musicians are worse off now compared to last year, 78 per cent say they are earning less than before the pandemic hit, and 98 per cent are concerned about their ability to earn enough income. So, it's just really bad across the board, evidence-wise, basically.

And the cause of those stats would be the pandemic, cost of living—.

Yes, the pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis, increasing costs, Brexit, problems with static funding in terms of public funding through the arts councils and the licence fee and public broadcasters and things like that. Just the whole range of things, really.

Okay. Anyone else?

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi wedi bod yn dysgu Cymraeg nawr ers amboutu dwy flynedd, a dwi'n joio'r cyfle i ymarfer.

Mae eich Cymraeg yn dda iawn.

Well i fi siarad yn Saesneg heddiw, achos mae'n rhaid i fi gael hyn yn iawn.

I think it's a very broad picture. I think we've got elements of positivity, mainly in the screen sectors, but we also have a lot of issues and concerns, particularly in arts and entertainment and live events. I think Andrew hit the nail on the head there; these have been brought to light by the pandemic. BECTU represents behind-the-screens workers in film, television and live events. Around half of our members are freelance and about half of them are in more traditional employment. So, I think we've got a good overview of the sector, as it were.

The pandemic highlighted the precarious nature of freelance work for us, as well as a lot of people, and that freelance work makes up to three quarters of the screen industries. Our freelance members lost their income overnight when the pandemic began to unfold. The lucky ones might have had a week's pay in lieu of notice. But, broadly, when productions and theatres shut up shop in March 2020, they terminated contracts, stopping income for tens of thousands of people. A lot of people understandably resented that. Our members might typically have three different employers in a week, but they're just as committed to an industry as somebody who's worked for an individual company for the entirety of their working life.

Some trust was won back by engagers when we were able to convince them that they could and, indeed, should take advantage of the coronavirus job retention scheme to furlough their workers, because these were discretionary schemes after all; the employers weren't compelled to take advantage of them. Of course, that only covered pay-as-you-earn workers. The self-employed got an even worse deal. We did a survey of our members early on into the pandemic that said something like 2 per cent of members who work under their own personal service companies felt they were being fairly supported by the self-employed income support scheme. It's the significant number of people who fell through the net in those UK Government schemes that led us to lobby the Welsh Government here for support, and I felt, for what it had available to it, it did a great job of providing that support.

Does anybody else have anything to add?

I think I would echo similar points for us. The majority of our members are self-employed, so they didn't have the furlough system available to them. We found that 40 per cent of our members fell through the self-employment scheme, and of those that were lucky enough to access that scheme, about 59 per cent found that actually it didn't support what they needed at that time. Many of our members took on additional debt to survive through the pandemic. I think it is a perfect storm—Brexit, the pandemic and the cost of living have led to where we are now. We describe it as a crisis of income. But I think all the points that my colleagues have made are as valid as well.

When you say 'where we are now', presumably you're saying, 'We're still dealing with the after-effects of what has happened'. Because I don't want to look back; obviously, we want to look forward. I'm conscious of where we are.

There are still challenges. Andy touched on funding. Obviously, we're talking about Wales, but we have to look at the impact of Arts Council England on Welsh organisations in the last couple of weeks. The Arts Council of Wales will be doing their own investment review. Their funding is standstill, so we know that we're just dividing up the same pot of money to the same group of people at a time when inflation is running at 12 per cent. I know we'll come on, perhaps, to talk about poor pay and things like that, and how do we address those challenges, but it's difficult to address those challenges when the underlying support and investment that's available is standstill.

I think part of the problem that lies behind some of the survey results and what the others have been saying is I think people felt, when the pandemic happened—or hoped, at least; there was always hope—that it was temporary and that we were going to come out the other side, whereas the problem at the moment is that it's hard for people to see beyond the current situation, in a sense. It's not something that's external that's happened to everyone; they feel that there might be ongoing problems. I think that's why there's a greater level of concern.

And just very quickly, in terms of the pandemic, it hit under-represented groups particularly hard, because of the falling through the gap in terms of funding, which the unions worked very hard on with Welsh Government, which worked well. People from global majority backgrounds, for example, were more vulnerable in terms of COVID-19 itself, but also not having the networks and finding it difficult to continue in the industry. Disabled people were hit really hard, and parents. Mothers in particular were hit really hard in the pandemic. There has been a mental health crisis—and we might come on to that later—in the creative sector for a long time, and the stats are fairly harrowing. It's still there, really, because of the atypical nature of the industry, because of the long antisocial hours, et cetera. But that is still underlying, and I think what we're doing as unions is trying to support our members as much as we can in terms of supporting them around their resilience and making sure that they have the networks and they don't feel isolated, because that's what happens to freelancers—they get isolated.

I think you've touched on a couple of things we'll come back to. You could come in, which would probably cover this point. Would you say the sector is in the same place opportunities-wise—putting aside the after-effects of the pandemic, Brexit and the cost of living—as it was in February 2020, before the pandemic?

Again, I think it's a broad picture. We've got areas of positivity in the screen sectors, but we have deep concerns over the recruitment challenges caused, in our opinion, by some very, very poor working practices, working conditions, terms and conditions, pay, in arts and entertainment and live events. I think it's important to point out that Wales benefits from high-end tv drama, or drama produced for subscription video on demand. If you look at the way the screen sector currently sits in the UK, most of your high-end film and major motion pictures are filmed within the M25 circle, or close to it, whereas Wales, in particular, benefits from these tv dramas.

I think it's fair to say there is good opportunity for some of our members, and there is opportunity for members in arts and entertainment. But, the opportunities come with less favourable terms. That's not to say that we're entirely happy with the working conditions in film and tv. If you look at the 'Eyes Half Shut' report that the union has published, which is an inquiry into the long hours culture within film and tv, there are still significant challenges there that we need to overcome in the interests of well-being and equality for those workers. But I think it's fair to say that the workers in film and tv have been able to organise for themselves at least some favourable and acceptable rates. That is not true for arts and entertainment. I worry that the crisis we face—and this is a concern shared by the employers as well—is of recruiting people into theatres, live events et cetera.

Does anybody else have anything to add just on the difference, perhaps, in the sub-sectors within the creative industries?

I won't touch on screen, but if we're looking at live events, many of our members work in care homes, they work in pubs, in the hospitality sector. They're facing huge challenges, because if we look at where we came from the pandemic, those were some of the last places to allow the public back in. Therefore, the availability of work was less. Then, they're operating with smaller budgets, which means the fees on offer are less. If you look at theatre as well, there are smaller casts, fewer productions. It's not all positive. I would say, actually, in answer to your question, there are fewer opportunities, not more. If we were the same as we were in February 2020, I think we could have some positivity in those sectors.

I think I would echo that. I would say there are probably fewer opportunities, but it's probably a split between—. Where there are the same opportunities, the problem is the fees and things like that being eroded, or being lower, or there are some places where there just are fewer opportunities. To take a really specific example, Welsh National Opera have said they're not touring to Liverpool anymore. I don't know the details of how that's going to work out, but if you're someone who might be a deputy in the WNO orchestra for their tour, that is one—. They're just going to be doing less. So, it's a combination of in some areas, probably, similar opportunities but problems with fees, inflation and things like that, and in other areas there are definitely fewer opportunities, yes.

Just very quickly, in terms of the screen sector, it's not all homogeneous. For example, the small indies work on very, very tight budgets, especially on S4C and BBC productions, so they're making very, very little money out of those. They have to work very, very quickly. The good thing about the small indies is that they're based throughout Wales, so the production sector isn't just here in south-east Wales. It's good to see that Caernarfon is starting to grow again. It was a big sector before 2010. We also need to remember there were 40 per cent cuts to S4C in 2010, and I think the independent sector is still reeling from that a little bit.

I'm terribly sorry, but I'm afraid we're going to have to move on. Sorry about that, Tom, but that was really useful. There may well be points that we'll want to raise with you in writing because we might not be able to get through everything, if that's all right. Sorry about that, Tom.

Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Alun Davies.

Thank you. I was interested in the responses there to Tom. It appears that you were describing all the difficulties—and I don't have any issues with any of the points that were made—but would you differentiate between some of the issues facing people who are freelancers and who are employed in the industry on a more permanent basis?

Who'd like to go first?

I think the majority of our members are self-employed. There are—I couldn't count—probably 30 full-time jobs within Wales from my members; the rest are freelancers. And I think that the precarity—. Even those in full-time employment, we have some that have in-work poverty, so I think even those that are on a full-time salary are struggling. But if we look at the precarity of the freelancers—going back to Tom's question—because the opportunities have shrunk, that's been a snowball, the opportunities even within—. And the cuts being made—. I think the challenges are the same; there's obviously slightly more security for those that are employed, but actually it's quite a small number within the sector.

I would agree. The vast majority of our members do at least some freelance work, and the majority of them would be doing all of it freelance, in the sense of having a portfolio career, and maybe some of their work is employed. But it's probably going to be a small part of their working week, effectively. Those who are employed definitely have more stability, but I think I would have just a very general concern about how the big picture of funding settlements and everything, from the arts council to local government, is going to play out over the next few years. There's definitely more security for them, but they are in a minority; most members would be doing either all self-employed work, or at least the portfolio career of freelancing, however that's made up.

Can I—?

Yes.

So, yes, very much along the lines of what my colleagues were saying, I don't think either field is particularly safe. But it's important to note that this is one big ecosystem, and that the big employers then, in terms of broadcasting, like your public service broadcasters, play an absolutely vital role in the freelance market, firstly, looking at commissions—the work that they're getting often comes from the public service broadcaster commissions—but also it plays an important role in training the workforce. So, a common cycle that we see, then, is that people will work at, say, the BBC for a number of years, and what we've seen is that, as the BBC has suffered cuts and cuts and cuts, naturally these have been made through redundancies. So, people have tended to work at the BBC for a long period and then go into the freelance market. So, to have such a concerning air around the future of the licence fee, in particular—. I think to look at them in isolation is not sensible. You need to consider that these are all part of one big ecosystem, if that makes sense.

I'd like to add, as a former freelancer in the screen sector, it's very precarious being a freelancer, of course, and I think especially those at early career—it can take five years for people to be established, and it can be a difficult time. And again, especially those from less advantaged backgrounds, it's even more challenging. But, if you think about it, freelancers don't get sick pay, freelancers don't get employment support, they get very little maternity leave, they don't get any paternity leave, they don't get adoption leave, they have to pay for their own pensions, they have to look for their own work, they don't have guaranteed work, so it can be feast or famine, they're responsible for their own training.

Carwyn mentioned redundancies. There's always some sort of redundancy somewhere, because it has been salami-slicing over the years with the BBC. So, we've just had some people being made redundant from Pobol y Cwm, because of the reductions in hours, and we're trying to encourage as many as possible to come over to the freelance world, if that's what they want to do. But, again, they need a lot of support. They need a lot of support about how to be a freelancer, because, in effect, they are a business, so it is very precarious being a freelancer, especially in the early years. And some are PAYE freelancers, so they're working for companies on short-term contracts; there's little stability, but they're not sole traders. So, it is complex.

Alun.

Thank you very much for that. So, 'where do we go from here?' is the question that's nagging me now. Because you've said in previous responses that we've got this coalition of real, shall we say, challenges facing the industry. We've had the pandemic, we've got the disaster of Brexit, and now we've got more austerity, which we know has failed in the past and created chaos in our economy. So, in that context, where do you think Welsh Government should be going, and what actions should Welsh Government be taking, as we run into a budget period, for example, which could help support and sustain the people you represent?

Simon.

Big question. I suppose it's crude to say that it's all about money and investment, but it is investment; it will go and it will create work and create employment. I think it's difficult to see the live events in particular, through the funding, through the Arts Council of Wales—. It's difficult to see how that will increase and how productivity—. Because the ethos has been, over many years, doing more for less—you know, less reliance on arts council funding, not more. And actually, the challenges that—you know, it's not in Wales, but we see—. There's a particular venue in England that is spending its entire Arts Council England funding on its fuel bill. When you've got venues facing those kinds of challenges, it's difficult not to talk about money, because that is, in the short term, the answer. But I think looking at the availability of fair work, the availability of good work, is a positive, looking at the changes that perhaps are coming down the line with the social partnership and procurement Bill, the work through the well-being of future generations Act as well. There are some positive changes there, but—

Sorry, can I stop you there? I was interested—. I can understand what you said about fair work and the procurement Bill. How does the future generations Act benefit you, then?

Sorry, Chair. I didn't catch the last bit.

You mentioned the future generations Act in that answer, and I was wondering how that piece of legislation actually benefits you.

Well, it's going to include fair work, and it's how we define fair work, the availability of good terms and conditions, the availability of good standards of work. As we understand it, that is being put into that Bill to protect the culture, to protect the culture of work. Because I think a lot of the challenges we face are around bad practices, and it's how we start to redefine what good work is; it's how we start to redefine what fair work is. And, certainly, I think that work has to be done in conjunction with the social partnership as well, because we have to look at how we put in place—. The positive workplaces that we have run on collectively bargained agreements, which the unions have put there, but there are still too many workplaces that don't. So, it's trying to make sure that, actually, where we see improvements in the system, it's because of those collectively bargained agreements.

Do you mind if I—? Is that all right? I agree with what Simon's said. I think, just to try and think about some concrete things, I'm a bit concerned about the Arts Council of Wales investment review, to be honest. There's a sense in which they are looking at moving away from the national portfolio to more of a general mix, if I've understood their proposals correctly—and I'm happy for them to say if I haven't. But, for the really big companies, over the next few years, I'm concerned about that change, because, actually, the big organisations that employ most of our members, but also have the most opportunities for freelance work for our members, need to be protected over the next few years. I think there's a danger that, if you move away from a model of the portfolio, that you risk causing even more instability with those organisations than there already is. I completely appreciate a lot of their points around increasing diversity and opportunities in other places. I agree with that. But I think we need to try and manage, to some extent, over the next few years, and the biggest organisations are the ones that are really important in the ecosystem that Carwyn talked about for our members.

In terms of other concrete things, I think social partnership and the cultural contract are definitely important. I think there needs to be more work done on that and on collective bargaining. Ultimately, that's still better than the alternative. I'm a bit concerned about the idea of carrying on with the idea of trying to do more with less. I do think we've reached a point where that's hard to sustain. And I think—. This isn't under the control of Welsh Government, but a key thing for us is streaming. That's one of the problems that musicians have now, actually, compared to previous times—the issue that there just isn't the money coming through from recorded music. And the things that the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee in Westminster have been looking at with streaming and making the payments from that fairer could be really important for our members.

I think there are maybe some things that could be looked at. I'd be a big advocate of trying to look at—. It's difficult to find the capacity to do this, but try and look at more innovative solutions, things that we've explored a little bit in the past to do with co-operative models for work and things like that, but also just greater co-ordination. Things like trying to have more co-ordination between the night-time economy and the creative industries and local authorities across Wales, where—. Sitting on the Bristol Nights board, for instance, a lot of the time, the types of work that our members do haven't historically been considered, really, by local authorities and local government and other organisations when they're making decisions. So, I think some greater co-ordination doesn't magically fix everything, but at least it will be good to try and discuss these things and the issues that our sector faces more.

I think, in terms of investment as well, in terms of things like business skills—. So, as Andy mentioned, people tend to look at screen and they see production companies, but there's a whole plethora of businesses out there. We've got special effects companies, we've got make-up and hair companies; it's a huge ecosystem that maybe people aren't aware of. But business skills need an investment from the bottom up, really, from freelancers who are one-person bands who want to exploit their IP and copyright better and to get better money for what they do, to the larger companies that need to grow. Because, at the end of the day, we do need to grow and sustain the creative sector in order to bring money into the economy. We want Wales to work as a fair work nation, where it becomes a destination of choice for creative workers, because there is a lot of call now in terms of getting enough workers. In the arts sector, it's difficult because the pay is so low. Sometimes, people are only on maybe the real living wage and they've got a degree. Well, when they see other sectors, they're not going to stay there long. So, again, we need to look at clever ways of running our creative sector here in Wales—innovative and clever.

Thank you.

Alun, ydych chi'n hapus?

Yes.

Okay. Great. Siân, you mentioned earlier that there's a mental health crisis in the sector because of the atypical nature of the industry. When we had a workshop recently in the University of South Wales, the committee heard that, particularly for young people, there are mental health pressures on them in terms of problems with bullying—for people of all ages as well—and that because of the microbusiness model that is so often there, companies don't always have the right HR capacity to deal with either issues like that or supporting people in the right way. There was an idea put forward that companies could share or pool HR resources in order to get support with that. Is that something—? Firstly, do you recognise—? Do the rest of you agree with Siân in terms of the crisis that she described? Do you think that having something like that, pooling that resource, would be a good idea? And is there anything that you'd want from the Welsh Government in relation to that?

I've got some good news on that front, in terms of what the Welsh Government is doing via Creative Wales. We are working on a pilot at the moment called the well-being facilitator role, and what's happening with that pilot is that it's a two-pronged approach where an independent freelancer, a well-being facilitator, is trained and works with a production company—and this is screen now—works with a production company looking at their mental health risk assessment. There is a duty for people—all companies—to do a mental health risk assessment, but unfortunately they don't. So, that would pick up things like the long working hours; the scheduling; the late nights; and whether you've got vulnerable workers on the production, such as new entrants, but also people, maybe, who have different conditions. It could be a lot of different things. Even prior to the pandemic, the Film and TV Charity identified that there was a mental health crisis in the screen industry. This was launched just before the pandemic, in February 2020. Nine out of 10 people in the tv and film industry had had a mental health problem; 55 per cent of screen workers had had suicidal thoughts, compared to 20 per cent of the population; 78 per cent cited long, unsocial hours having a negative impact on their lives—you're talking about people working 12 to 16-hour days very often, including new entrants; 39 per cent of global majority people, who we're trying to attract into the industry and have been doing for many years, said they had faced racial harassment and discrimination in the last year; 74 per cent of disabled people who'd come into the industry considered leaving; and BECTU's research identified that 68 per cent of people had considered leaving the industry because of the working conditions. And the reasons for these sorts of things are, as we mentioned, long unsocial hours, the unpredictability of work, and a culture of fear. Only 2 per cent of people said that they would go to their line manager to talk about the problem.

Only 2 per cent?

Two per cent said they would go to their line manager if they had a problem. This is because, to get their next job, they feel they can't speak out. So, the well-being facilitator pilot has been running since September. We're working on 10 productions with a community interest company called 6ft From the Spotlight, and we're working with five scripted productions and five non-scripted productions, and the issues are things—. Some things are not going to cost anything for people to sort out. It's things like new entrants coming in on a night shoot, maybe pouring down with rain, and they don't have wet-weather equipment. They may not be able to afford it, they haven't thought about it, they're coming in sometimes without a job description and person specification, so they're not quite clear what their role is. The heads of department haven't had training in management. They're freelancers. They would be expected to do training in their own time, and they might not always see that they should be spending their time undertaking training. I could go on for hours, but I won't.

Siân, would you be able to share that research with us, please?

Yes, of course.

That would be very useful, if you could.

And there's a lot of research from the arts as well. I'm talking about screen, but there are others like Help Musicians UK. What we do as well, in terms of our training programme, is we bring charities in and we run sessions with them, like Beat, like Help Musicians UK, the Film and TV Charity, because they offer bursaries and support to people. And, interestingly, the Film and TV Charity has a helpline. It's based here in Cardiff. So, there are lots of good things happening here, but sometimes it's getting that information out. What's good about this well-being facilitator is that we've set up an advisory group and the employers are onboard. We used to work well in partnership with employers many years ago when S4C was established, but that seems to have lost its way, but it's coming back through the social partnership approach.

That's really—. Forgive me for interrupting, I'm afraid we're going to have to move on in a minute. If anyone has something very brief that they would want to add. I'm so sorry that the time is so against us.

Just to say, as the officer that deals with the industrial matters and supporting workers, I absolutely recognise everything that Siân has said. There is indeed a culture of fear that prevents victims of bullying and harassment coming forward, for fear of being branded a troublemaker. So, I think it's important to note that that great work that Siân has been doing has received a good response from some employers, but I think it's important to note that it's being driven by the unions. Alun asked earlier, 'What can the Welsh Government be doing?' It is to work closer with the unions on projects like that, so that we can roll out that great work into, perhaps, arts and entertainment for a similar thing. But all of these challenges that Siân sets out are, of course, exacerbated by in-work poverty now. People are under pressure because of the squeeze on their living conditions due to inflation and things like that.

That's very, very useful. Simon, if I could implore you to be brief. I'm so sorry.

The thing I was going to reference is that there is already lots of good practice out there, and I think sometimes there is a danger that we try to recreate what's already there. There is a specific app that has been developed, and we've been supporting it, called Call It!, which tries to get across the issues that people face. It's an anonymous reporting tool for screen industries that captures workers' anonymous feedback on a range of issues, which include bullying and harassment, which is then aggregated and shared with production executives, and it also then signposts the worker to relevant resources. So, we're trying to break down that barrier, but it's difficult because we're not the regulator.

No, of course.

We're having to work with the industry.

What I'll do, if it's all right, is when we write to you, we'll ask you all for more information on this topic, because I know this is a very, very important topic, and I'm so sorry that we haven't had enough time to go into more detail on that, but that's all very useful. Thank you.

Wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Actually, it is following on. Siân, you gave us some key statistics there, but in terms of data, if we look at equality, diversity and inclusion in particular, how much data is available around the creative industries in Wales, and perhaps specifically your unions?

Yes, I think the data is very, very poor, but I think they're trying to address that now, through the University of South Wales, and I know Creative Wales are doing some work on that, and the British Film Institute. I think the problem we've had with Welsh Government in the past, in terms of getting data, is that the creative industries were so widely defined, but they have now managed to hone it in to the key areas that we might be interested in in particular, in terms of our industries here. In terms of the unions, we do—. For example, we do skills audit and research and we will be doing mental health research in the new year, so we, as unions, will be doing research together, but we don't have equality and diversity data. Apart from who comes on our courses, we don't have all that data—in BECTU, at least, I don't think, Carwyn.

I would say, yes, I think there is a bit of a lack of data. I may come back to you, if that's all right, because UK Music launched a new diversity report only the other day, and I haven't had a chance to check how far that data drills down into nations and regions. But, historically, unfortunately, for the music industry at least, the data has generally been UK-wide and not drilled down into Wales. So, I think there is an opportunity, definitely, to do more on that and get more of an understanding of the creative industries across Wales, and I would certainly be interested in—. Paul Carr has definitely done some good work on this, and I think there is more that could be done with that, yes.

Thank you.

Yes, it's patchy. It does tend to focus, more often than not, on employees, rather than looking at workers. Somebody could be in a job for two or three days, and they then don't get tied up into that survey.

Yes, and obviously if they're not union members, some of the data that's reaching you is going to be different, then.

Sorry, could I just very quickly—? Look, Delyth mentioned there that the challenge is that productions, in particular drama productions, have poorly resourced HR functions or HR departments. My experience of it is that they have no HR function whatsoever. These are companies or operations that are not going to be there in nine or 10 months' time, and they hope that there will be no further conversation about that, so I think that's part of the problem. But, absolutely, the challenge is there in terms of diversity and equality as well. A lot of organisations, whether that's in film and tv or theatre and live events, are dependent, due to presumably the financial challenges they will claim, on people volunteering to do work to get into the industry. Well, that's impossible. That's an absolute barrier for equality and diversity, because people with family commitments, women with family commitments, single mothers—how do you expect them to give up the time that is already precious to them without the justification of being able to earn money then, isn't it? So, it comes back to that lack of resourcing, I would say. That's what I would say.

Very quickly on the research answer, when we do our research in terms of training and development, anyone can come on our courses. We don't stipulate that they have to be a union member. It's for anybody in the creative sector who wants to come. So, we do collect that data and we will be better at it now that we're slowing down a bit after the pandemic.

Great. Thank you. Just to follow on, perhaps, from the point Carwyn raised there, it is something—. Delyth referenced the workshop at the University of South Wales recently, and the committee heard there that tokenistic representation takes place rather than structural change. In terms of some of the solutions, who do you think needs to drive that, or how can that be achieved, because these are things that have existed as long as the industries have existed, in terms of people working for free, trying to get that opportunity? So, what do you think are some of the structural changes and who should be driving those?

I think sometimes—. Either the creative industries want to change or they have to be forced to change, because they've had every opportunity to make changes to the industry, but it's slow and they have to be prodded along the road for most of that. If there are achievable standards to be attached to funding, it all comes down to reporting and things like that, but essentially, how do we make sure that public investment is bringing back the correct approach to equality and inclusion? If we look at the root cause of it, it does come from the employer. The employer has to change. We often talk about the fact that, yes, we can ask for pay rises of 20 per cent, but if the employers' organisations are not willing to pay that, ultimately they are in control of pay and conditions, the terms and the recruitment practices. Perhaps if we look at the way that procurement is going to be done under the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, building in safeguards within procurement, it's making it an edict to get it changed, but I think we've been talking about it for too long and trying to make changes, and it's too slow.

And I think, in terms of traineeships, there are answers. Again, we're on the fortieth anniversary of S4C, and not long after S4C was established, lots of new independent production companies were around, but of course it needed to train the new generation, so what happened was that Teledwyr Annibynnol Cymru, the employers' association, and the then union, the Association of Cinematograph, Television and Allied Technicians, got together and they set up a training organisation that was funded by the employer. It started off with people working behind the scenes in tv and film having two-year traineeships. So, what they did, they went into the classroom and then they were put onto different productions, and 98 per cent of those people stayed in the industry. It did go down to one-year traineeships, but the problem at the moment is that we have traineeships linked to particular productions in screen, and they can be quite short. They could be four weeks. Well, that doesn't give a young person—or of whatever age, actually, these days—time to settle into the industry. And, again, there needs to be a proper training programme and there needs to be a well-being plan and a financial plan.

This week, there have been a few calls come through. One person had been working on a production and they were using their own car, but they weren't clear on whether they were going to be paid for petrol, and there were silly rules like they didn't get anything for the first 30 miles, then they were going to be paid 20p a mile, and then they were expected to take other people in their car. These are health and safety issues, and vulnerable people are so new to the industry and are frightened to say 'no'. So, I think there needs to be a good, robust traineeship based on fair work. But also, if we want anyone to be able to work in the industry, we really need to look at how they're going to sustain it. A few weeks' traineeship is not enough.

If I can come in briefly, it's a pretty complex area, so I think any answer I give will probably seem inadequate in a way, but I think there are a few strands to it in music. I think part of it is the commissioning and the programming, about really making sure that there's a drive for diversity and a real commitment to putting those diverse programmes together. PRS have had their Keychange initiative for a while—and I'm afraid I can't remember off the top of my head what the stats are on that—but I think there's got to be a real commitment from those people. I went to a meeting with an organisation called the Diverse Artists Network in Bristol yesterday, and that was something that was mentioned to me there, about that commitment to diversity and the things that go along with it, like for instance access riders and making those really consistent across all venues.

In music, I think there has been some progress in terms of funders really seeking to particularly focus on whether they can more actively encourage people from more diverse backgrounds to apply, so that's been progress. Again, the problem is with things like the arts council, you run into a problem, where with standstill funding—how can you make your funding across more diverse organisations, without, in my view, creating a problem by damaging the ecosystem, by cutting the funding from other organisations, where ultimately a lot of the employment still is?

And I think in terms of training and things like that, it's about, for music education for young people and talent development, trying to join things up more. Things can still be a bit siloed in Wales geographically and in terms of genres and sectors, so, I think there's got to be an effort to really join things up and bring more diversity that way.

Just very quickly, it's a collective responsibility, I feel. It's absolutely the role of trade unions to be pressing for progress, for inclusion, for diversity. But I note—perhaps it's only my aspect of it—the projects, then, to address these issues, always seem to be led by people like Siân and the trade unions, then, to say, looking at the diversity action plan for theatres, looking at the work that Siân has done with Raindrop UK to bring people from underprivileged society into film and tv. But it does need a collective approach, I feel, from Government, from the trade unions and from the employers to address these inequalities.

I live in a remote part of the Swansea valley, which is very close to a filming location, and I often question myself, 'How would somebody who didn't drive, then, come to work on this particular location here?' I think they'd be leaving to come to work before they'd arrived, if they were relying on public transport, to get to those remote locations where these productions tend to be based. So, Siân hit the nail on the head there; it's a significant challenge that needs a collective approach, I would say, but I'm proud of the role that the trade unions have taken so far in taking these matters to the employers.

Diolch am hynny. Mae'n flin iawn gen i, bydd yn rhaid inni symud ymlaen nawr, achos mae amser mor brin. Mae'n flin gen i am hynny. Gwnawn ni symud at Hefin David.

Can the panel just give me some opinions on how the education sector can better develop a pathway for qualifications that better reflect a career in the creative industries? That's deliberately broad, by the way—[Laughter.]

I mean, my quick reaction to that is a comment that I was just about to make. There has been a shift, really, in the last few decades from the responsibility of training moving from the employer to education and Government in the creative sector. So, I think that there's a big debate needed to happen about what is the role of education. Is the role of education to educate, or is the role of educate to train, and where does that cross over?

In terms of qualifications, anything in the creative sector does need to have a business link. You can train musicians, you can train performers, you can train people behind the scenes, but if they're working in today's creative industries, they do need to know business skills, because they are likely to be freelance for part of their lives, and hopefully set up their own businesses. So, qualifications and the curriculum, they really need to embed business, as well as the other skills that are really important. But again, that dialogue between Government, education and employers needs to happen.

I would say that the new curriculum is very positive in Wales with regard to where the expressive arts sit. It seems one of the six pillars; I think that's incredibly important if we look across to what's happening with the role of arts within education elsewhere. But I would echo Siân; there needs to be an industry input into it so that it is relevant and it is preparing them for what the industry is.

So, if there's going to be an industry input, you need the sector working closely with further and higher education institutions, with schools to develop, particularly, perhaps, vocational pathways. to develop, particularly, perhaps, vocational pathways. Do you think there's a place for higher apprenticeships and degree apprenticeships in this area, because, at the moment, they seem to be focused on science, technology, engineering and mathematics?

All I would say on apprenticeships—it goes back to a point that Siân made a couple of minutes ago—is that, of course, it's very difficult to place an apprentice on a four-week production. There needs to be a much more creative approach to apprenticeships within the creative industries, because they're not necessarily going to find something that is going to be for the entire period of their apprenticeship—

But an institution, like a further education or higher education institution would be able to design a programme that would take account of that, but it would need collaboration, wouldn't it?

Yes. And I think there are—

Yes. And I think Sgil Cymru work very closely with Welsh Government on apprenticeships in the screen sector, working, in some ways, in terms of how Cyfle used to work. Wales Millennium Centre, as well, have had an apprentice scheme in the past where they've had shared apprentices, so, what's happened is they've worked with further education and then worked collaboratively with theatres throughout Wales, like smaller ones up in west Wales and Ceredigion, Brycheiniog, who don't have the capacity to have their own apprentices. So, again, shared apprentices, I think, across the creative industries are a very good idea. The important thing is that there is money coming in for those young people, or older people, whatever their ages are, and that there's a collaboration between Government, education and the industry.

If I can—

I think there's—. Sorry, go on.

If I can come in, a few things on music, I think, first of all, the problem with music, to some degree, comes back to where we started our conversation, which is that if you want artist development, what you need for that are the places that are really struggling at the moment, to a degree, which are the grass-roots music venues. It's people being able to afford to just go out on tour and do gigs, and I think that joining up of music education and talent development organisations to be more collaborative—. But also, the work that's gone on in music education has been really positive over the last year, and I think we need to continue with that and, hopefully, in the long run, actually, just increase the funding. In a way, it does, to some degree, come back to that, because, again—and also diversity, which is that if you're thinking about music education, people are struggling to afford music lessons, they're less affordable than they would have been some time ago, and we need to make sure that all schools—that there's more funding for music education—but we need to make sure that all schools are engaging with things like that. It's great to have it in the curriculum, but schools engagement in the music service is optional and it's not historically been something, in my experience, that Estyn have looked out for and measured. So, then, there's got to be a real drive to make sure that all schools are engaging with, especially music, the services and the offer that are out there.

And colleges themselves, as well, how do they interact with the industry? I understand that a number of teaching staff would be from the industry, but is there a structure in place to ensure that programmes are developed with that in mind?

Well, I can talk for myself, we do a number of discussions and talks with students about the role that we play and about the role that the unions play. They're usually part of an industry week or an industry period within the curriculum. So, I think there are a number of colleges that are starting to be more industry facing in actually preparing them to come out to the place of work. But, to your point about those who teach within those institutions being from industry, I think it's important that that's part of it, because it's practical skills they need to take forward.

Could I—

Okay, my last—. Yes.

Sorry. Could I make a more general point on training? As an officer who covers Wales and the west of England, I need to point out that I do feel that members in Wales are in a much more fortunate position in terms of what training is available through the union, due to the investment in the Wales Union Learning Fund. Of course, in England, that investment has been cut back, so when I speak to members, I have to identify where are they living, and what is available to them is very often dependent on what side of the border they live. So, I just want to pay testament to the commitment that the Government has made to that fund, and also to the work that Siân and her team do in delivering—identifying, first of all, where the training gaps are and then putting courses in place to address them.

Okay. And I think the creative skills action plan was announced—this is my last question, Chair, I just want to make sure that we're keeping to time—the creative skills action plan was announced in September, will it sufficiently identify and mitigate those skills gaps that exist? Is it going to be effective?

I'll just highlight one brief concern, which is—I think the Arts Council of Wales identified this in their evidence actually—just a risk I'm a bit concerned about, and I think others I've spoken to are too, about trying to avoid a divide between the Arts Council of Wales and Creative Wales. I think we need to do everything we can. I know that they're aware of it and they're trying to talk to each other, but, from a music perspective, my members don't really differentiate, to be honest, between the different parts of the industry and the way that that split exists. So, I think there's a real need to—. The plan is good, it's good to have a plan, and it's better that it's there, but it needs to make sure that it's looking across all areas of the industry, not just, 'Is it commercial or is it subsidised?' and making sure that it's the skills, like I said, for music, in terms of the actual artists and developing their skills in a practical way through gigging and performance.

Were you going to say something?

I declare an interest in the fact that I currently chair the skills action plan steering group, so was involved in the discussions around what the action plan might look like, but I think there is a concern that it obviously is looking very specifically at the remit of Creative Wales and not past that. So, there are identifiable gaps where it's not joined up because we're looking very specifically at meeting the criteria of Creative Wales and not anything else. But, I think we've tried hard to try and identify as many of the gaps as possible, including something that we've not touched on, which is actually a huge challenge around retention. It's not just about training new entrants into the industry, it's making sure that those who are there can stay, because we do lose track, sometimes, of people who literally just drift away because actually, the opportunities are not there, the type of lifestyle, et cetera, is not there. But, I think it obviously was heavily oversubscribed, so I think there are challenges to look at what comes next. But, I think also, the action plan is a living document, we're going to look at it again once we've looked at what's come in to see whether, actually, there are new places that we need to look.

Fairly quickly on that one, as an answer to your previous question as well, the good thing about that panel is that it includes further education, higher education, unions, employers, and other industry organisations. So, I think the way that they've put that panel together is really good, because it's people throughout Wales, in different areas of Wales. I think it's good, in a sense, that it could look at innovation and look at good ideas that people have in terms of training in Wales, and they identify 10 key areas, which I think was really, really helpful. I guess what it doesn't replace is the traineeships that we were talking about before in terms of that longer term process in terms of paid entry into the sector. But what it could help is with progression and retention.

Grêt. Oni bai fod gan unrhyw un unrhyw beth brys maen nhw eisiau dweud, mae gyda ni funud ar ôl. Dwi ddim yn gweld eich bod chi. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am y dystiolaeth y bore yma. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio. Mae yna rai cwestiynau dydyn ni ddim wedi gallu cyrraedd, felly os ydych chi'n fodlon byddem ni'n ddiolchgar iawn i gael atebion mewn ysgrifen ar y rheini. Ond, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich tystiolaeth. Sori roeddem ni wedi rhedeg mas o amser, ond roedd popeth roeddech chi wedi'i dweud yn rili, rili ddefnyddiol i ni. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich amser. Thank you so much. Aelodau, byddwn ni nawr yn cymryd egwyl fer o 10 munud er mwyn paratoi am y sesiwn nesaf.