Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

We'll move on therefore to item 2, the ministerial scrutiny session with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. A warm welcome to this session. If you could please introduce your officials to us, Jeremy.

I'm joined by Owain Lloyd and Bethan Webb, who are senior officials in the Welsh language division.

Thank you very much. A warm welcome to you all. We are short of time and we have a number of areas that we want to cover, so I would urge you to be brief, if at all possible, with questions as well as responses.

If I could turn immediately to questions, I wanted to ask you, Minister, about something that has been a contentious issue, namely the fact that the vaccination pass won't be available in Welsh. Does that cause you any concerns?

Work is ongoing at the moment to ensure that that changes. So, it won't be the position for too much longer. At the moment, a number of steps are taken before you get the pass. The first begins on the Welsh Government website, and that's available in Welsh of course. The second step is the log-in for the health service across the UK. At the moment, that step and those that follow it are available only in English, but work is ongoing in order to ensure that there is a bilingual version of that part of the NHS website that is used across the UK and the pass itself. So, those two final steps will be available in Welsh as well in around a fortnight, I believe. The part that will take longer, unfortunately, to provide bilingually is the log-in section, but there is some development work happening in that area anyway, so that we create a made-in-Wales log-in. And of course, when that is launched, it will be available in Welsh.

Thank you for explaining that to us. Moving on to a different topic, in terms of tackling inequalities and supporting well-being goals, can you give us three specific examples of what your department will do in order to tackle those challenges?

Well, one of the well-being goals is Wales with a vibrant culture where the Welsh language prospers, so virtually everything we do in the department works to that end. What we want to see, of course, is that everyone in Wales feels that the Welsh language belongs to them. So, that's a hugely important part of that system. So, the aim of securing a million speakers and, importantly, doubling the use of the Welsh language is interrelated with that, so every intervention that we make, in some way, contributes to that target.

Thank you. And if there are any specific examples you'd like to highlight, either now or in writing following the session, we'd be delighted.

Virtually everything we'll discuss today works towards that goal.

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move on immediately to Tom Giffard.

Diolch, Delyth. Good morning, everybody. Minister, I just wanted to ask you about the current impacts of COVID on the work you’re doing, particular on the network of partner organisations that support the Welsh language, and how you’re planning to mitigate them.

The impact has been substantial. The work we do as a Government happens in partnership with a number of organisations and institutions across Wales, and virtually everyone, if not everyone, has been impacted by COVID. Last year, specifically, my predecessor, Eluned Morgan, commissioned a sub-group of the partnership council to look at the impact on Welsh language community groups, so that's the impact of COVID there. Of course, the landscape and the way we engage with each other has been transformed by COVID, and there's been a great deal of innovation by our partners in this area in order to provide services and support to our communities in a way that's meaningful in that new context. But what is needed most certainly, and that report has been published as has my response to it over the summer months—

Minister, you've just been muted. You're back.

Apologies, I'm not sure what happened there. Now, I will do two things. First of all to ensure that we continue to support organisations in adapting to COVID and also look at an alternative model of operation for the future. So, in terms of community organisations, we will move to a model of community empowerment where organisations have a role in providing capacity within the community so that others can use the Welsh language more often. So, that's part of our response as a Government. There's a broader response also to that report that was published in the summer.

What we've also seen in the COVID context is how people engage with learning Welsh—that's slightly changed too. So, the Welsh learning figures increased substantially as the provision moved online over the past year, and we've been running campaigns to support parents in supporting their children's linguistic journey, which has been a challenge, of course, in many contexts over recent times. But I also want to ensure in that area that the innovation that we've seen with some of our most important partners is maintained in different ways. We've seen the Eisteddfod Amgen, Tafwyl has gone online, so there are a number of developments there where they could retain that for the future perhaps in some way or another.

Thank you. You talked a bit there at the end about online learning and digital learning of Welsh. Do you think that provision is currently adequate, not only for children, but for adult learners as well?

I think the digital offer is very substantial. This year, for example, we are spending over £3 million in providing resources, and an additional £1 million on bilingual resources, so a percentage of that will be digital. We intend to work with the national network in education, and that prepares our education system for the new curriculum. Part of the work of that network is to disseminate information on commissioning content and, of course, digital content will be an important part of that. In addition to that, we have broad provision on Hwb—some 240 purpose-made programmes for learners there. So, I think that there are many things in place at the moment that are significant. But just to echo what I said a few moments ago, if you look at the work of the National Centre for Learning Welsh over the past year, as they moved their work online, the response to that has been very positive indeed in terms of extending the range of people who can access the Welsh language and Welsh-language classes. So, that has been a very important development, I would say. They're also working with Duolingo and Say Something in Welsh, so these are quite innovative steps in ensuring access for adults to Welsh-language lessons.

So, just to follow up on that, you spoke about the existing education sector and Hwb and these things, which I think covers the children aspect. I think you only mentioned Say Something in Welsh and Duolingo as provisions for adult learning, do you think that is, perhaps, adequate, or is there more?

No, just for clarification, we have a National Centre for Learning Welsh, which is working with Duolingo and Say Something in Welsh in providing a very broad of range provision, but there is a very broad range available. It's the work of that centre that's moved online over the past year to a great extent, and that's where I was emphasising that the innovation and the expansion in provision has taken place. We could share figures with you; they have been published by the centre, and they are figures on the numbers of people who have been learning, and those figures have increased substantially over the past 12 months.

That would be excellent, if you could share those numbers with us.

To what extent do you think those interventions and investments to increase the daily use of the Welsh language are having the desired effect?

Well, your question goes to the very heart of my priorities, if I could put it in that way: that every intervention that we make as a Government, and ask our partners to make on our behalf, increases the use of the Welsh language. So, the Welsh language is a living language, a community language, and it's important that we not only support that, but expand the real daily usage of the language. So, I want to ensure that everything that we do as a Government is assessed against that yard stick.

I am currently commissioning a piece of work on the Welsh language promotion grants in order to ensure that we look at what else we can do in that area to drive use of the Welsh language. So, there will be further statements as a result of that, but what's truly important here is to look at the outcomes of those interventions. I'm accountable to the Senedd as Minister, not just on the expenditure that I make, but also the impact that that has: do these interventions have the results that we expect? So, that's my main priority.

If you look at things like the siarter iaith and the ARFer project, working with behavioural science to increase the use of the Welsh language in workplaces, for example, then those things really are having an impact, but I want to have a broader lens across all interventions to ensure that they do drive usage ultimately.

And—

If I could just cut in there, Tom. In terms of the language-use survey, there's been no increase in the last survey. Is that a cause of concern to you?

Well, the results generally are positive in that survey. If you look at the annual survey, the figures of Welsh speakers have increased substantially. As you know, as a Government, we rely on census statistics in terms of the statistics we're accountable for, because they are more meaningful in that sense. But even in the language-use survey, there is a positive pattern emerging, as there is in the annual survey.

Thank you. Sorry, Tom, back to you, if you have any further questions.

No, no problem. Just one final question from me on this. You mentioned there about workplace Welsh, so I wondered if you could tell me what the opportunities and challenges are that you think are presented by workplace Welsh, and in particular reference the public and private sector and how they might differ.

Well, I think there are a number of challenges. The first thing to say is that there is a great deal of good practice out there, so there are things that we can learn from workplaces that are already doing very good work in this area. If you look at standards, for example, much of the success of standards has been in workforce planning and ensuring that there is a workforce available to provide services to the public through the medium of Welsh. So, good things have happened there, which I think can be an exemplar for us.

I also want to better understand the language journey of institutions captured within standards. What are the challenges that they face in providing services through the medium of Welsh and what are the challenges for the workforce? I've been discussing this with the commissioner recently to see if he would be happy to do a piece of work in that area so that we understand where the good practice is and understand in more detail where the frustrations may be and then look at what we as a Government can do to support businesses and organisations on that journey. But we already have interventions such as Helo Blod and Helo Blod Lleol, which support businesses. You asked about the private sector, well, we're supporting businesses in providing services through the medium of Welsh, so there are things already in place.

Thank you for that, Minister. Tom, if you're happy, before we move on to Alun Davies, I think Heledd Fychan had a supplementary question.

Yes, just in terms of the impact of the pandemic, clearly, there was an emphasis in your response on digital. Now, one of the questions I have is on the impact of the pandemic on those who don't have access to digital and whether you have any concerns in terms of the impact on the Welsh language in those areas and is there any research ongoing in order to understand the impact of the pandemic. Clearly, we're in the midst of the pandemic, it's not over yet, but could we understand the impact of that on areas where digital perhaps hasn't been an option?

Well, of course, the things that we've described are examples of the innovation that's had to happen in digital over the past 12 months. But the review I mentioned earlier on the impact on community groups, of course, that's a crucially important part of that. People have been accessing support and services face to face with the work of the mentrau iaith, for example. So, that analysis has already been undertaken and that's what I mentioned earlier in terms of how we're learning some of the lessons of the past year and moving to a slightly different model. But also, and I'm sure we'll come on to discuss this, what was entirely clear in the COVID context from the outset was the impact on communities and people working from home, working patterns were changing. There are a number of opportunities for us in terms of the Welsh language, but there are also challenges, and we as a Government have been responding to that over the summer, as you know.

Thank you for that. We'll move on to Alun Davies.

Thank you, Chair and thank you, Minister. I welcomed your appointment. It's difficult, as a former Minister, when you see those succeeding you, but I have been impressed with the way in which you've been speaking following your appointment and prior to your appointment too. And I want to ask you, if I may, Jeremy, about your view of the strategy. I've read the work programme that you published in July, and it's a lengthy programme. I'm assuming you haven't had a great deal of time to consider that before its publication, and I assume that you will return to it over the next year, but when I launched the strategy and this aim of a million Welsh speakers, there were two things that I launched. First of all, the target itself, and secondly, the strategy. Now, since I've left post, the Government has retained the target, but dropped the strategy that I launched, and I'm very disappointed with that, and I'm disappointed with the way the policy has developed over the previous few years. What is your view of the strategy that I launched and what weaknesses do you see in the strategy?

Well, what I want to ensure is that we remain accountable for delivering that target. That's the main aim that I have as Minister, and we have an opportunity here in that the education and Welsh language portfolios have come together.

I agree with that.

That gives us, perhaps, new opportunities to deal with some of the boundaries within portfolios that, as you know, can be challenging from time to time. So, I think the emphasis on education is very important. The emphasis on early years education is very important. We have challenges and targets, as we've set out in our work programme, but as you mentioned, when you were Minister, the emphasis on that is very important in driving access to the education system and allowing language transmission later in life. The linkages there are very important. So, there are a number of things that can be continued from that strategy. It's important that we do look from time to time at the direction of travel.

There have been a number of reviews recently on language use and so on, and it does show some progress. But, as I've said, what I'm working towards is to ensure that we respond to the census results. When we get those results, it'll be an opportunity for us to look again at where we are in terms of the pathway, and we may need to make changes as a result of that.

Thank you for that. You haven't answered the question in full, but I won't pursue it any further. But what struck me in the work programme is that you have areas of action—I'm reading this in English. The first area of action here is establishing and supporting a commission on the situation of the Welsh language as a community language. And, in response to Tom, you mentioned the language as a community language and the importance of that, but you know from your own background, and I certainly know—I think each and every one of us who uses the Welsh language knows—that that isn't the case in areas as it was in the past, and that the language isn't a community language any longer in many areas. And the Swansea valley and the Gower area are some of those areas where we've lost the language as a community language. So, what's the commission's role going to be? What's your vision for this commission?

Well, we have various interventions—. Perhaps I could have a further conversation with you on the context of the Swansea valley, as one who lives very close to that area. But the picture isn't balanced across Wales, of course. The policy in terms of the commission, which is one of the things recommended by Simon Brooks in his report, is part of a broader package of interventions. So, I'm not saying for one second that the commission is the solution to the challenge, but having an understanding of the economic impact on the Welsh language, socioeconomic impacts and the broader context is important to us in this context.

The interventions that we've been discussing, in terms of planning, taxation, support for home ownership, and so on, some of those are quite challenging in terms of delivery, as you will know. But, there has to be a foundation for that in terms of having a deeper understanding of some of these impacts so that we avoid what is a substantial risk in this area—and Simon Brooks himself makes this point—namely this idea of unintended consequences. The interventions that look most likely to succeed don't always succeed. So, we need to avoid that.

Thank you for that. That's a great help. So, you see this commission as a language planning body.

No, I see it as a group of people who will advise us. I don't see it as an institution with a building, as such—

Well, yes, that's semantics—a group of people doing language planning.

It's a contribution to that, most certainly.

So, you don't see any broader role for Government in promoting the use of the Welsh language.

I certainly do.

How will you do that?

I don't want to give a lengthy response to that question, but I will just say that the idea of promotion has been one that's been very comfortable, at one level. It's very broad ranging, and it doesn't lend itself to specifics in terms of strategic interventions, and it doesn't lend itself to the work of being accountable to you as a committee and a Senedd. I prefer to look at the individual interventions. So, if we're talking about increasing Welsh-medium education, then that's the aim. If we're talking about increasing adult education, that's a target. If we're talking about Welsh-only spaces, that's the target. So, I think it needs to be looked at in more detail.

I don't want to spend the whole morning on this, but I don't think that the kind of commission you've described in answering this question is one that will contribute what we need in terms of language planning at the moment, but perhaps we could return to that at a later stage.

As Minister, what I saw was that there was too much bureaucracy around standards. I saw the standards as being okay, but I saw that we were building a whole host of bureaucratic structures that didn't contribute to the use of the Welsh language to support the standards. I didn't see the standards as being as important as they are in some people's eyes. What are your views on the success or otherwise of the standards, in two areas: first of all in creating new rights to use the Welsh language, and secondly, the way in which the Government or the commissioner administers those standards?

The brief response is that it does create new rights, but there is room for improvement. So, that's the simple answer. But what I want to be clear on—as I've already mentioned on language use, I want to understand how standards that have already been put in place help Welsh speakers to make more use of the Welsh language. I think that's the aim. Nobody wants to see rights being simply something on paper; we want to see real, practical rights that lead to more use of the Welsh language. That's the main aim in my view. I have had discussions with the commissioner on this, and there is a piece of work on understanding the impact of standards on language use, and also the language journey that I mentioned earlier. So, I'm very eager to get those two things in place.

In terms of the system and the process of imposing standards, I think there are many things that we can do to improve that process. The original vision, as you clearly know, was that levels of requirements were placed on particular bodies so that they could go on a journey. There is a tension between that and consistent rights across sectors, which is what the commissioner has historically prioritised, but the upshot of that is a gap between the right and the provision on the ground. So, that's why understanding the real barriers for organisations, companies and institutions in providing Welsh language standards is so very important.

I also think that there is work that we can do, and I discussed this with the commissioner, to simplify the process in many ways. There are many things that can't be simplified as they're contained within legislation, but the process of investigations and the work that's done with the sectors does create a substantial risk of duplication. In many organisations, and organisations expected to be subject to standards, the gap can be quite substantial, so I think there's a lot more work that we can do to ensure that that process is simplified.

I'm pleased to hear that. The second thing I wanted to return to—

If you could be brief, Alun, please.

Okay. In launching the programme publicly, we were clear that the target of 'Cymraeg 2050' was a target to change things, and to change things within Government too. What I didn't say publicly at the time—I didn't feel that as Minister I could say this—was about the lack of support within Government for this target, and the lack of support in your department, the education department. As a former education Minister myself, I did have those kinds of discussions. So, what can you do to change attitudes, negative attitudes within Government? And how do you think you can ensure that the change we all want to see in delivering the target is one that the Government as a whole will be committed to?

The first thing to say is that it's important to set that target, and that's certainly happened. I will talk about the ministerial elements and ask Owain and Bethan for comments on how the civil service responds to that. So, as you know, the First Minister in his leadership manifesto was clear about mainstreaming the Welsh language in the work of Government. What does that mean? Well, it certainly doesn't mean a culture of compliance—'this is the plan, and this is the box that you tick at the end to say you've considered the Welsh language'. That's not the culture we're talking about here at all. It's a far more integrated culture where the impact of policy on the Welsh language, both positive and negative, is considered from the very outset. That's the aim.

The work of Prosiect 2050 within Government is to ensure that there is support within all portfolios to deliver against the strategy. So, work is happening with virtually all portfolios. We can discuss those if there's time. I'm happy to answer specific questions on these. But this is happening across all portfolios. What needs to happen—and this is the greatest challenge—is to change culture so that you move from a situation where looking at the impact on the Welsh language happens after the policy is developed to a system where that happens from the very outset of policy development. And we're on that journey. There's more to be done, of course, but I will ask Owain for some comments on the civil service and so on.

Thank you, Minister. The Minister has already mentioned some of the internal things that we're doing, but to answer your question, certainly there's room for improvement. As the new director, I think there is an opportunity with the fact that we've brought the portfolio together, that education and the Welsh language are contained within the same portfolio. That's crucially important—that the team working for me understand the importance of that, and that we look at how we can drive forward the programme. So, certainly there's a lot more to be done, but as the Minister mentioned, there are internal structures in place to secure that. But we also have to look at other departments and ensure that everyone is rowing in the same direction. So, I would agree with that.

Thank you very much. We'll move on. I think Carolyn had a supplementary question in this general area.

Thank you. The funding to expand Welsh-medium provision in early years has been really welcome. Would you look at the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 as well, to see if you could change that and maybe make some funding available? When there are choices as parents, as to whether you send your child to English medium or Welsh medium, especially in north-east Wales as well—. You know, if you don't speak English at home, but there's free transport to the nearest Welsh-medium school—. And also, when they go on to high school as well, that can make a difference. It can be that the only time that young people are immersed in the Welsh language is at school. So, if there's free school transport to the nearest provision, I think that could make a difference.

Yes, certainly, the question of location is important. I mentioned in other contexts that numbers and statistics are important, but in terms of this area, geographical issues are also relevant in looking at education. There is an opportunity now that we have a capital source available for Welsh-medium schools in the new wave of twenty-first century schools, and the fact that that's coming at the same time as the new strategic plans. So, we have an opportunity to co-ordinate both things in terms of vision and provision and funding.

In terms of your specific question on the learner travel Measure, there is a review ongoing at the moment. It's not in my portfolio—it's in the climate change portfolio, because that's where transport lies. But work is ongoing at the moment to look at the impact of that Measure, and possible changes to it.

Thank you, Minister. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much. Just to follow up on that theme in terms of the WESPs, in looking at councils across Wales, there is inconsistency, of course, in terms of how they deliver the target of a million Welsh speakers. What influence or intervention can you have in terms of ensuring that the councils do support this target of a million Welsh speakers in a meaningful way, rather than simply putting a tick in a box?

I will ask Bethan to provide more detail as to how it works on the ground, but there is a process in place. So, at the moment, as you know, councils work on their Welsh in education strategic plans, the dialogue happens with Welsh Government in that regard, and there are also sessions in terms of building awareness and capacity in the system and being ambitious in how those plans are provided. Then—I think by the end of January—we expect to have those presented to us as a Government for consideration at that time in order to ensure that they are sufficiently ambitious. So, that system is already in place and is operational, but I'll ask Bethan to provide more detail.

Yes, in addition to what the Minister's just said, we have a specific team working with local authorities across Wales. We provide support. We've delivered a number of sessions online in terms of training in language planning and so on, and we've provided a great deal of support as they develop their new WESPs for the next 10 years. There is also a Welsh language education forum in every county and they've developed a great deal over the past two years, and there's a great deal of good practice. There are language use partners, in terms of school heads and the broader community, who attend those meetings.

There's a great deal of work still to be done, as the Minister and Owain have already said, but I have seen substantial changes in attitudes in local authorities. Even in the midst of the pandemic, the language fora continued with their work. So, I think the language in the drafting of the WESPs is more positive now, and there's a real desire to drive this forward and to work in partnership.

But what can you do if they haven't delivered those initial targets—those targets that they set as part of the million Welsh speakers strategy? Is there anything that the Welsh Government can do if local authorities don't deliver against those initial targets?

That's why we reviewed the WESP regulations. Those new regulations have come into place, and it's the new regulations that are driving the 10-year strategies forward. So, we have looked at the target, which is 30 per cent, and we've given a specific target in the WESPs for every council, and they are committed to those targets. And that's what will be consulted on during the autumn.

So, then you'll have more powers if those targets aren't delivered so that the Government can intervene, where necessary?

We will be monitoring annually. We have a new dashboard that we have created, and we will be working with councils to ensure that these targets are delivered.

Thank you very much for that. When you have the data in terms of how we're delivering against those initial targets, do you think that the target of a million Welsh speakers is still realistic, Minister?

It's ambitious but, yes, I think it's realistic. It's ambitious, as it was when it was launched by Carwyn Jones and Alun Davies, but that's the intention—to ensure that the system responds to that level of ambition. The figures that we've seen recently are positive. As I've said, we will need to look again at this in terms of the census results when they're published some time next year, at the end of next year probably. We will have to look at the situation at that point, but I do think it's realistic. However, it is ambitious.

You mentioned, in terms of the Welsh language and communities, the importance of geographical provision in terms of schools. What influence can you have on local government in terms of those locations? Are you confident that our county councils aren't simply meeting demand, but are actually working to develop that demand?

In terms of Welsh-medium education?

Yes.

I think that's the shift Bethan mentioned in terms of the level of ambition. That question gets to the very heart of the challenge we face. Some perhaps haven't yet met the need that's in place already, but what we need is to drive that demand, and that's been the shift.

Thank you very much. In terms of the Welsh language and communities, clearly, one of the major issues is second homes in Welsh-speaking communities. Now, I know that there's been a great deal of discussion of this already in the Senedd, but what do you see as the action steps that you will take?

Well, they're already in place. We've been working over the summer to look at communities where we can trial some of the interventions that we've been considering. There have been very positive discussions happening between officials and local authorities about that. The Minister for Climate Change will be making a statement on the location of a pilot soon. We've also been consulting over the summer, as you know—the consultation is still open—on changes in local taxation to ensure that councils have more tools in their box in terms of taxation and dealing with some of these challenges. We've also been reviewing the planning guidance to ensure that more priority is given to the Welsh language in some of the decisions taken by councils, and we've also commissioned a piece of work over the summer, from an expert company, in terms of how to introduce statutory licensing. So, work has been ongoing there. We expect to have more to say about that at the end of November, the beginning of December.

In addition to that, work has been ongoing in developing the package of support in terms of home buying and so on—so, interventions in housing. I also expect that the Minister for Climate Change will make a statement on the consultation on Welsh-speaking community housing, which will deal with issues in terms of my portfolio and look at things like immersion, Welsh language education, online provision, cultural and linguistic integration packages, and then also, in terms of housing, look at more creative approaches in terms of looking at the desire to have social enterprise for the letting of homes, looking at the capacity to create co-operative housing models. So, there are a number of things, as well as the work of the commission, on the linguistic side of things and also on the housing policy side of things. The important thing is that both things come together in that plan.

Thank you. The other side of the coin, of course, is we're talking about safeguarding and developing the Welsh language in terms of what were traditionally its heartlands, but I would like to perhaps ask about a strategic focus on improving access for BAME and minority communities to learn Welsh and use the Welsh language so that it truly is a language for everyone in Wales.

Well, we certainly need more work in this area. The percentage of the BAME population who are Welsh speakers is lower than the percentage across the broader population, so there is certainly work to be done. What are the specific interventions? Well, in starting with Mudiad Meithrin, we need to ensure that people understand that the Mudiad Meithrin movement is there for everyone in Wales. So, there's a piece of work there already in terms of advertising and marketing the availability of Welsh-speaking nursery groups to some of our BAME communities. They've also been working on a race equality policy and a recruitment campaign, and they've also worked with parents to gather data in order to ensure that we understand what happens on the ground already. So, that is happening in terms of early years.

In terms of data and performance at a school level, in terms of school pupils, what we've found is that almost half of those from BAME communities who study Welsh as a first language do that either in Cardiff or in Gwynedd. So, the pattern is quite concentrated in that sense. So, there's more to be done there in order to ensure the availability of Welsh-medium education, that it is available to BAME communities across Wales. So, we need to do more work in that area.

In terms of Welsh for adults, I think the National Centre for Learning Welsh has been doing innovative work on this. They're currently looking at how they can support families from Afghanistan, for example, in learning Welsh. One of the challenges in this area more generally, I think, is the terminology used in Welsh to discuss questions that are relevant to race policy more generally, and I think we need to do more work in that area to ensure that the terminology and language is appropriate. There is a task and finish group ongoing at the moment—the national centre is part of that—in order to ensure that we use the right inclusive language and language that's appropriate so that everyone feels that the Welsh language belongs to them. So, there are very specific things happening, but certainly we need to do more in that area.

Just one final question from me, sorry Delyth, just quickly—

Very briefly, if you could.

Yes. Over the summer, the expanding access reports were released by the Arts Council of Wales and the National Museum Wales. I'm sure you saw a lot of attention in terms of references to racism within those organisations, and references to the Welsh language and jobs being advertised as Welsh essential in that regard. I'd like your response to that, Minister.

Just on a broader point, the work we do with all partners—in terms of the grants scheme, we look at what we can do to ensure that the provisions of those organisations and those partners is as inclusive as possible, and how they can extend their services to BAME communities, and ensure that they carry out staff surveys to understand the situation on the ground in more detail too. But, in terms of the specific question you mentioned, I understand that there will be further statements in due time on those issues.

We're into our last 15 minutes, I'm afraid, so we will have to move on. If we could move on to Hefin David.

Thank you. With regard to the rapid review on the National Centre for Learning Welsh, just specifically, recommendation 6 said,

'the Centre and Welsh Government should scope expansion of provision and remit to those between 16 to 25 years of age who have studied Welsh as a subject in the English-medium school sector.'

What role do you think Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol would play in supporting that, or is that entirely separate?

Well, the work of the coleg Cymraeg is important, and we've expanded their budget this year in order to ensure that we use the range of skills that they have. But there is also a question as to the work of the national centre, and how we can use the specific skills contained there, so that they are applied in the education system more broadly, including that phase that you mention there. That review has been published, of course—I published it over the summer, and I intend to respond to all of the recommendations in more detail in due time, so you will then see exactly what my response is to each of those, but I'm happy to answer any further questions you will have at that point.

I think the issue I'm raising is that there's existing provision and then there's the National Centre for Learning Welsh. I'm just trying to think how are you going to ensure that there's a dovetailing of existing support that is already funded and some of those recommendations.

Well, that's the point I was trying to make. I think there are specific skills in the National Centre for Learning Welsh that could be used in our education system. We have an aim of ensuring progress in terms of Welsh language education in English medium or bilingual schools. So, we have an opportunity to use the skills contained within the centre to deliver that.

Okay. And will that require a significant amount of additional investment in order to deliver the review's recommendations?

Well, we may need further resources, but I will be looking at all of those elements as part of the fuller response to the review, which I'll be announcing in the next few weeks.

Okay. I imagine we'd like to come back to that at that date—

Yes. As soon as that is available, we'd be very grateful to have that, at the earliest opportunity.

Chair, I don't see it as fruitful for me to pursue any more detail, given that the Minister's indicated that a further announcement is coming. But I would like to ask about the support package for school-level immersion Welsh language learning and its implementation. So what support is being given to that?

This is a very exciting policy, I believe. And we've seen how important this has been where the provision has been in place, and we've had immersion centres since the 1980s. There are some 14 counties in Wales providing some sort of immersion—some in designated centres, and others in providing additional support within schools. And the outcomes are very impressive. Children who go through the immersion system—you see children coming in with virtually no Welsh, and within eight to 12 weeks they are Welsh speakers and can go on to Welsh-medium education. So, there's an excellent opportunity for us here.

What we have seen during COVID is an increase in the numbers of people who want to access the immersion system, which is very positive. And it's also positive that there is interest from more counties in making this provision, or expanding their immersion provision. The provision historically has been stronger in north Wales and the coastal counties in west Wales, but there is now more interest from counties in the south-east of Wales. So, there is an opportunity now for us to create broader immersion provision. I stated about a fortnight ago that there would be a fund of over £2 million to support that, which would be available for local authorities to bid for the funding. Now, those opportunities are open until the end of October, and I hope to see ambitious proposals in terms of immersion in a number of different areas.

That's fine for me, Chair.

Thank you. I think Heledd Fychan wanted to come in on this point.

Certainly, in terms of the immersion provision, it's a problem that there is inconsistency across Wales at the moment. Is there anything that you can do not only to encourage local authorities, but also to ensure that this is available in all counties? Looking specifically at the area that I represent, Rhondda Cynon Taf, there are substantial differences between Cardiff and Rhondda Cynon Taf, for example, and I've heard from teachers how many pupils they've lost, as a result of COVID, to English-medium schools because the immersion resource isn't available in RCT. So, is there anything that you can do to ensure that this provision is available the length and breadth of Wales, or is it just encouragement?

Well, you say 'just encouragement'; we've just stated that there will be a £2 million fund to ensure that it does happen, so it's more than just encouragement. But, in terms of what we can do in terms of enforcement, Bethan's just mentioned the journey that local authorities have been on in terms of their strategic plans, and this is all a part of that. So, I think we need to work in partnership with education providers in order to ensure that people understand the value of this, and that's what's happening. Now, I'm not suggesting that there's no scope in being more specific about this, but progress is now being made, and I want to see what happens with this fund to see where this goes and where the appetite lies. And the response has been very encouraging over the past 12 months, as a result of COVID, so let's try and build on that. In terms of your broader question—and you've raised it in more than one area—you are referring to the legal levers. So, as you also know, we have a plan to introduce a Welsh language education Act, which looks at where we can strengthen the statutory frameworks, and all of these questions are applicable in that context.

Alun Davies wants to come in very briefly. But, before he does, Minister, would you have an additional five minutes to remain with us until twenty-five-to this morning?

Yes.

Great.

We don't have time to go into the Welsh language education Act just mentioned by the Minister, but I'd like to know what he has in mind. So, I'd like to ask the Minister to write to the committee with details of any proposed Bill, and I'd like to know, specifically, Minister, how you intend to support and implement the right to Welsh-medium education. I'm a parent of a child that lives two miles from the border, and I'm telling you he has a right to Welsh-medium education, but I don't understand how we can act on that right, and that's the most important thing. It's more important than the rights themselves. So, I'd like to know how you're going to ensure a legislative framework that will ensure that we have rights as Welsh speakers.

Well, Chair, if I may, I agree with Alun Davies—we need to ensure that rights are delivered and that people, in reality, have access to Welsh-medium education in all parts of Wales, if they so desire. So, I'd be happy to write to the committee on that.

Thank you very much for that. Finally, we'll move to Carolyn Thomas.

Okay, thank you. Could you give me details of the current programme for introducing standards for the Welsh language, and also regarding regulations for, say, utility companies, such as water suppliers, regarding standards, and also regarding Transport for Wales, as well?

Well, we have a manifesto commitment, as you will know, to introduce specific regulations to place duties under the standards on Transport for Wales before the end of the Senedd term, and we will certainly do that. So, that is a clear commitment that we will deliver.

In terms of standards in other areas, just to return to a conversation we had a little earlier, I want two things to happen. The first is to better understand how standards have assisted people in making more use of the Welsh language. That'll tell us some important things about how to deal with further standards. So, that's important in terms of prioritisation and certain organisations and bodies—so, usage and what the impact is on usage. And the second thing is the language journey that I mentioned earlier: what exactly are the barriers and frustrations for companies and organisations that prevent them from providing Welsh-medium services? And that's also important in terms of our understanding of how we tackle a standards scheme in transport. So, that's my plan—to look at transport. And then, in light of lessons learned from those two pieces of work, we will look at a plan for further standards.

Okay? Was there anything else you wanted to ask, Carolyn, or are you content?

No, that's fine. Thank you.

Minister, in terms of the standards in transport, can we have a timetable for when they're likely to be published?

They take between 12 and 18 months to go through the Senedd. I haven't yet decided what the timetable for laying those is. There is a question of ensuring that resources are available at the moment for all kinds of things. We have a programme for government. There's a great deal happening in terms of the Welsh language. We need to ensure that we sequence—whatever the Welsh word is for 'sequence'—the use of our resources. I was testing the simultaneous translator there. [Laughter.]

'Sequence-o'—that's a very good Welsh word, yes.

We need to ensure that these things are properly sequenced. We can't do everything on the first day, but I will be certainly happy to keep you in the picture on the timetable for that.

Thank you. I'm sure that, over the next months and years, we will be discussing standards regularly with you. If you can keep us in the picture, as you say, we'd be very grateful.

Well, that brings us to the end of our questions. I think Heledd Fychan may have a supplementary, or are you just putting your hand up?

Yes. As we do have a few moments, could I ask one further question? We didn't have an opportunity to pursue the issue of the National Eisteddfod. You note in your paper the additional £200,000. Are you still acting on the review carried out by Leighton Andrews, which talked about funding the Eisteddfod as a national body because of its importance, particularly in the context of a million Welsh speakers. So, are there any discussions on further support for the Eisteddfod or is that it in terms of the £200,000?

Well, the £200,000 is one of the ways in which we've supported the National Eisteddfod. Last year, we provided some £500,000 to support the Eisteddfod with the cost related to the postponement of the Tregaron Eisteddfod. So, there are many ways in which we have supported the Eisteddfod in that sense.

I think we do have to look at the role of the Eisteddfod. As I've said, the Eisteddfod has been one of the glowing examples of innovation over the past year, so we need to look at what else we can do in that area and also look at the role of the Eisteddfod. The Tregaron and Llŷn eisteddfodau are going to be happening in areas where the impact on Welsh-speaking communities in terms of the housing market is very specific indeed and very challenging. So, what can we do to use the golden opportunity of the Eisteddfod visiting those areas to have a broader impact in those communities in terms of the use of the Welsh language and the promotion of the Welsh language? So, we certainly have a role in having those discussions.

Would it be possible for this committee to have an update on what progress has been made on that report in terms of the National Eisteddfod, to see where your plans are now and where the National Eisteddfod is in terms of future plans, please?

Well, I'm in the Chair's hands in that sense.

Well, if you have time within the next few minutes—

I was asking whether we could have an update, not today necessarily, but perhaps on paper as a result of this meeting.

Would you be happy to write to us with more detail?

Of course.

Thank you.

Okay. Well, we've asked you for a number of—. Well, you've said that you'll write to us on some specific points. We will write to you reminding you of those points. We will also send you a transcript of what you've said, as a draft. But, for now, may I thank you, Minister, and Bethan Webb and Owain Lloyd, for your time this morning? I'm sure that we'll speak to you again soon, but thank you very much for your evidence.

Thank you very much.

We will now take a short break, so I ask Members to return in 10 minutes' time, please—so, to return by 10:40, please.

Welcome back to our meeting this morning. We move on to item 3, general scrutiny of the Welsh Language Commissioner. I'd like to welcome our witnesses, and I ask them to introduce themselves for the Record.

Of course. I'm Aled Roberts, Welsh Language Commissioner, and I'm joined by my colleagues.

Gwenith Price, and I work as director in the Welsh Language Commissioner's office.

Dyfan.

Thank you. I'm Dyfan Sion. I'm also a director in the commissioner's office.

Thank you very much, and a warm welcome to all three of you. We'll move immediately to questions. First of all, we'll be asking about some of those things that have impacted the use of the Welsh language over the past year. Can you outline the main impacts of Brexit on the use of the Welsh language in communities across Wales?

I think it's still early days, if truth be told. We provided evidence to your predecessor committee in the lead-up to Brexit, which certainly outlined some concerns about specific programmes that were funded by the European Union and aimed at creating a more skilled, bilingual workforce. Clearly, we are still waiting to see exactly how these programmes will be funded for the future. I know that the Government is partly reliant on the approach adopted by the UK Government and how funding is to be transferred to Wales and how much funding will be available. Some announcements were made this week, but I do think we need to see the detail of those programmes that can be funded as a result.

In looking further to the future, of course, I think our main concern is in agriculture specifically, because of the percentage of the agricultural workforce that uses the Welsh language on a daily basis. There are areas in the west and north of Wales, as well as mid Wales, where over 90 per cent of the workforce is Welsh speaking, and, again, we are waiting to see exactly what the proposals will be within the agriculture Bill in terms of financial support provided to the sector in place of the common agricultural policy. We did have some concerns about the White Paper. There was an overemphasis, in my view, on environmental support, and that perhaps didn't meet some of the requirements in terms of the Welsh language. The agriculture sector in Wales is very different to the sector in England. There is quite a high percentage of small family farms here in Wales, and I do think that we have to be very careful in terms of the kind of system established in place of the common agricultural policy.

Thank you for that, commissioner. Alun Davies wants to come in at this point.

Thank you very much. I agree with the commissioner's analysis. May I ask you, Aled, what kind of conversations or meetings or discussions you've had with the Minister and with the Welsh Government to express your concerns? And how have you been working on that in order to ensure that these issues are brought to our attention?

There were meetings with the previous Minister and with officials. There were discussions mainly around the premium and the attention given to the Welsh language in that context. Since the election, we've written to every Minister offering support in the development of policies that, in our view, would be supportive of the Welsh language. A letter has been received accepting that invitation to meet, but that meeting hasn't taken place with the new Minister to date. I think there is a date in the calendar now—and perhaps Dyfan could confirm that—but, clearly, correspondence has been exchanged following those meetings confirming our views, and there was also a full response to the consultation on the White Paper, which set out in detail our exact concerns about the situation. The truth of the matter is that there are areas in those geographical areas that I've mentioned where over a third of the population work in agriculture, and therefore any decline in terms of family farms is going to weaken the position of the Welsh language within those areas, and it is a cause of concern for us an organisation.

Thank you for that. I agree with that analysis, as I said earlier. Perhaps—and I don't want to spend too much time on this this morning—it would be an idea if the commissioner were to write to the committee with his analysis, in more detail that can be provided this morning, and on the basis of that document, I would like to see us as a committee writing to the Minister for agriculture to ensure that these issues are considered fully in any discussions that are ongoing at the moment.

We are—

Yes, I would—

Apologies, Chair.

No, not at all. I would be more than happy; if you're willing to write to us on that, then we can discuss it further as a committee. But I think that's a very good idea. Commissioner.

Of course, yes. And we've also been having discussions with experts in the area. We do hold regular meetings with the farming unions, but also there have been papers that have been shared with the Institute of Welsh Affairs by Gareth Wyn Jones—

Yes, I've seen the—

—who is a professor at Bangor University, and Tim Jones who worked with Natural Resources Wales. So, I think we share the same concerns. It's not simply our analysis of the situation and we are certainly strongly of the view that we need to be very careful in terms of the system that is adopted here in Wales.

I would agree with you on that. So, if you could gather that information together—

Yes, we will.

—and send it to the committee, the committee can then consider that—

Yes.

—and I would hope we would then write to the Minister or bring the Minister to the committee.

Fine.

Thank you. Tom Giffard has some questions on one of the other challenges that we've faced over the past year, namely COVID.

Thank you, Delyth, and thank you, commissioner. I hope you don't mind, I'm still trying to improve my Welsh, so I'll ask my questions in English today, but hopefully it'll be a long-term thing, with any luck.

So, I know you've previously expressed, commissioner, that you've had concerns that the pandemic would have a disproportionate impact or effect on the Welsh language. So, what do you think will be the main impacts, and what needs to happen to address them?

Evidence was provided to your predecessor committee, and I think they shared some of our concerns, and I was very pleased that the Government responded positively to that committee's report. I think it's also worth noting the fact that the Government has included within its work programme the work done by the group within the partnership—the sub-committee of the partnership—which did good work on the impact of COVID on communities.

I think we are now starting to see exactly what some of the implications are. I think the main point I would make is to emphasise the pressure in terms of second homes. The changes in working patterns and changes in people's way of life, I think, just—. It's not a new issue, if we're honest; I remember when I was at university I wrote a dissertation on the impact of second homes on the west of Wales, and that's more years ago than I would like to admit. But I do think that the patterns that have developed over the past six to 12 months have highlighted the scale of the pressures now, and I am very eager—. Although the Government have announced that they have specific plans to tackle this problem, we are still waiting for a meeting with the Minister, so we don't have enough detail as to what the plans are at the moment, and I am very eager to see exactly what the nature of the Government's response will be.

Clearly, there are questions in terms of taxation, there are also questions in terms of the nature of planning legislation and how easy it will be to change some of those regimes, but I do think we do need to be very careful, because the truth of the matter is that there is a generation of people who are being priced out of living within their communities if we're not careful, and nobody wants to see that. Although if we or if the Government succeeds in their task, the truth of the matter is, of course, that there are grave problems in terms of the strength of the economies in those areas too. So, it's not just a matter of dealing with the issue of second homes; there are questions in terms of depopulation that have been a problem over many years.

And COVID too, of course, provides opportunities. I don't think that we should be too negative. The truth of the matter is that perhaps some of those people who have been attracted to Cardiff over a number of years, because you have to move to Cardiff in order to get a job that appeals to you—perhaps those patterns might be changing too. But, clearly, they can't remain within their communities if the house prices are prohibitive and beyond their means, so I think we need to see exactly what the Government has to say on this issue.

The other thing, I think, and I've just referred to this in a way, is these patterns in terms of remote working. In terms of the Welsh language, we have to be very careful as to how that's going to work too, because there are opportunities at the moment for people who, perhaps, are uncertain in their language skills or are Welsh learners to actually reinforce their language skills because they work within a workplace where the Welsh language is used on a daily basis. And although we can all work from home, and that's appealing to a certain extent, we have to understand exactly what the implications of that are on people's ability to use the Welsh language in the workplace, and to ensure that plans such as the Welsh Government's plans to create hubs—. Although they've said within those plants that they will ensure that the Welsh language is central to them, we as an organisation have to look specifically and in detail at what exactly is being proposed and the arrangements underpinning those proposals.

And almost the reverse question, I guess: are there opportunities you see? I think you've touched on some of them, but what are the key opportunities you see for language growth brought about by the pandemic?

Certainly, yes, I think we have seen changes. The assurance report that we'll refer to later on does demonstrate that some organisations have responded positively to these opportunities and have been doing things through the medium of Welsh that would have been beyond what we could have imagined some months or years ago. So, there are possibilities and opportunities.

There are also opportunities for young people to remain within the Welsh-speaking heartlands rather than having to move to Cardiff to access work, but we do also have to ensure that those opportunities are tangible. So, I don't see it as being totally bleak, but I do think that we need to ensure that the Welsh language is at the heart of these changes and that real consideration is given to the Welsh language in terms of the changes.

I think you talked a bit about established long-term traditionally Welsh-speaking communities and the impact the pandemic has had on those communities. I'm interested in your view on, again, the reverse kind of communities. I live in Bridgend, where, perhaps, the language isn't as well established. What impact do you think it has on communities like that?

Well, yes, there are opportunities because there are examples, and we refer to this in the assurance report, where opportunities have arisen for people to see a GP or a nurse virtually, where perhaps the same opportunity wouldn't have been available if that appointment were to take place face to face. But, the pattern at the moment is not consistent across Wales. So, there are some health boards and some surgeries that have taken the opportunity to use technology and consideration is given to the Welsh language in terms of making the most of the opportunities of working virtually. So, that certainly does open doors that haven't, perhaps, existed in the past. But, what we will need to do is to disseminate good practice and to ensure that that offer isn't only available in Bridgend, for example, but that it's available in Blaenau Gwent or in Torfaen, too. So, I'm very eager to ensure that, rather than us complaining about a lack of opportunities, that we say, 'Well, listen, are you aware of these opportunities that have been created because more use is now made of technology?'

Okay. One last one, then, from me. To what extent do you feel the Welsh language is central to the Welsh Government's more general post-pandemic rebuilding plans?

Well, we have asked them to ensure that the Welsh language is central. I think there is scope for us as a nation to take pride in the fact that there are examples where the Welsh language has been a central consideration in terms of contingency planning, and so on. Of course, there are also examples where, at the moment, I am either investigating or I've come to the conclusion that I am not content with the arrangements that have been put in place. So, my main message is that, yes, there are examples where the Welsh language has been taken into account and has been a central consideration, but, at the moment, part of the work that I need to do is to ensure that every department within Government considers the Welsh language within its rebuilding plans, and that's an important part of our work. That's why we've offered not only to meet with every committee in the Senedd, but also that we meet with every Minister and every department too, so that they understand exactly what our requirements are as a body on behalf of Welsh speakers, so that we do make the most of this opportunity in terms of any rebuilding plans.

That's very important for us as a committee too, commissioner. Thank you for those responses.

If we could move on, now, where we will focus on your annual report, your assurance report and some specifics there. So, can I invite Carolyn Thomas to ask questions?

Diolch. Just going back to the cyber attack on the commission's ICT systems, what were the cost and resource implications in order to rectify the commission's services? And to what extent are systems now secure for the future?

Okay. I think you will have read in the annual report that the impact was significant and far-reaching. To all intents and purposes, we did for a period lose every piece of information and data that we held, including details of contact officers within various organisations. In the first instance, we had to safeguard our systems, and there were requirements from the Information Commissioner and the police. There was also a need for us to safeguard personal staff data, and the data of complainants too, and we had to reconsider our priorities, if truth be told, from 10 December onwards.

I think we have succeeded in rebuilding quite swiftly. That's certainly been the external view of things, but clearly, too, we were fortunate in that we had agreed an ICT strategy with Government, and had received assurances in terms of Government investment in rebuilding our systems. But that was at the very early stages, but Dyfan was responsible for the initial strategy, and perhaps he's better placed to answer your questions, so that he can confirm the exact sums and the impacts, and to what extent we have now rebuilt. Dyfan.

Dyfan.

Thank you for that. To turn to the question of funding and costs first of all, we spent £272,000 during the financial year, and that was capital that we spent on ICT and what's difficult—as Aled's referred to, we did have plans in place for the transformation of our ICT environment in any case—so what's difficult is to untangle the cyber attack from all of that. There were some things that we had to do in response to the attack that we wouldn't have done otherwise. For example, we had to restore data, migrate data; there's also the work that we did in analysing the cyber attack, and the costs of those pieces of work are some £25,000. But of course, we did have broader ICT developments in train.

But just to give you some quick context and to build on Aled's comments, the cyber attack destroyed our systems entirely and we had to do two things: we had to respond to the crisis in isolating our systems, working with the police and other agencies, but along with that, we had to rebuild our systems, and we had to do that as swiftly as possible in a manner that was as safe as possible so that we as an institution and our staff were operational as soon as possible following that attack. We did that by establishing Office 365 accounts, we worked with Government in securing laptops for staff, and as a result of the steps that we took in those first days, we were operational with new accounts after a little over a week following the attack.

There has then been further work in analysing, migrating and restoring data. We have been able to restore some of the data but not everything by any means. There's a great deal of work ongoing too, although we have been able to take a number of steps following the attack to recommence our work. There is still work to be done during this financial year, and that will continue, certainly for the rest of the year.

For example, we've launched a new website in August; work is ongoing on cyber security; we are working towards the cyber essentials plus accreditation; there is work ongoing on internal databases, so we intend to build a new customer relationship management system; and there is work continuing on specific pieces of work such as the place names database and our networks. So, that gives you a flavour of what we did. Of course, there are specific costs, but it's difficult to disentangle that from the wider ICT work that we carried out.

Thank you for that detail. Carolyn, was there anything else that you wanted to ask?

Thank you for the detailed response. That was really good. What is the current progress status of the commissioner's five-year report? The annual report makes—sorry, notes—that the five-year report will be published in summer 2021. So, I guess with everything that's been going on, it's set things back a little bit, maybe, but if you could just respond to that, thank you.

Yes, there was a delay in the process, clearly. There was a delay in terms of all of our processes, but there was also a decision taken by us to postpone publication because of the Senedd elections. Also, originally we were to publish our report around the same time as the new Government was being put in place, so there was a decision taken during the year to postpone publication until the end of September, because we'd also had to postpone the publication of our annual report. We would have been publishing both around the same time, so what we did was to publish the five-year report at the beginning of October. So, at the moment, I think we will publish that next week. Dyfan has his hand up. So, I'm hoping that everything is in place and has been completed, and certainly the Welsh language version has been finalised, so I very much hope that everything will have got back from our translators, too.

Yes, just to echo that, we will be publishing the report next month. It's with the designers at the moment, so by the end of October, that report will have been published.

We look forward to receiving a copy when it's available. Carolyn.

You're top of the list.

I'm very pleased to hear that.

Okay, so just a last question: what evaluation, if any, has been given by the commissioner in relation to the impact of Iaith Gwaith—I hope I pronounced that right—Working Welsh since its inception 15 years ago?

We are very proud of the scheme. The purpose originally was to provide a space for Welsh speakers and Welsh learners to identify Welsh speakers as they walk into any reception area, or as they engaged with any public body. That small orange badge has been a great success, and I think that's because organisations believe in it, and they see that it's beneficial, not only in terms of the public but also in terms of internal conversations and discussions among staff, where the tendency in the past may have been to start a conversation in English, but clearly now if you see someone wearing that orange badge then they can start that conversation in Welsh. That's important.

The plan has also developed over the years. It's not just a badge now. There are lanyards available, and we are currently following discussions during COVID, if truth be told. We are talking to health boards on embroidering the badge into uniforms in the health service to ensure hygiene within the workplace.

So, this is developing. There are also plans in place by health boards to include the orange badge on noticeboards above patient beds, so that staff too can see that patients are Welsh speakers, so that they can start those conversations in Welsh, too. So, there's a great benefit to that.

We did carry out a campaign in November of last year that celebrated 15 years since its inception, and the belief at that time was that there had been huge growth in the demand for the Iaith Gwaith products, but unfortunately the cyber attack meant that nobody could contact us to request badges, and so on. So, we did have to wait until our new website was launched in August before we could respond. But I think it is worth telling you that the growth that there's been since we launched the new website some three months ago has been quite substantial, too. In the month before we launched the website, there were only some 650 requests for badges and so on, and in the month after the launch of the website, that had increased to over 1,800, so that's a threefold increase in demand, almost. And we're eager to ensure that that demand is maintained. We have plans in place to raise awareness during this year. We are going to be promoting Iaith Gwaith. If you go on our website, one of the first things that you will see is the Iaith Gwaith branding encouraging people to request these products which, of course, are available free of charge, which is surprising to some organisations when they first approach us.

I also think that I'm now very proud of the fact that this programme is recognised internationally. Scotland has adopted a similar scheme, although they have a purple badge rather than an orange one, and I provided evidence to the Dáil in Ireland just last week, and they've asked for more detail on how we've succeeded with this particular programme. So, I very much hope that Wales will be in the vanguard once again in terms of showing the way forward for minority languages, and how we increase the use of the Welsh language in public bodies through something that, essentially, is quite a simple idea, but works very well.

That's certainly something that would be of interest to the committee, because we're also responsible for international relations. So, if we could have more information about those discussions that you've had with the Dáil, then that would be excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, we'll move on to some questions from Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, and thank you for joining us today. I wanted to ask about Welsh language standards and Welsh language schemes, and what progress has been made in introducing Welsh language standards in new sectors.

No progress since 2018, and that is because we've done preparatory work in terms of certain sectors, but there was no movement in the previous Government. I wrote to the former Minister stating that I was eager to make progress. We have over the past 12 months done some research work and some preparatory work in terms of the railways, and that's been on a slightly different pattern to what was adopted previously, in order to ensure that we respond to the Government's requirements. But, of course, it is a matter for Government to prepare standards and regulations and to lay those regulations.

You'll be aware that we included requirements in terms of the standards programme within our manifesto. We've also written to the Minister, Jeremy Miles, suggesting that it is now time for us to start to make progress. I've received confirmation that he is eager to make progress with regulations in relation to the railways, and I had a meeting on Monday where he was eager for our officials and Government officials to discuss issues around the use of the Welsh language emerging from standards, and also the 'language journey', as he described it, in terms of how usage is increasing the status of the Welsh language within organisations and in terms of the engagement of citizens with those organisations. So, at the moment there will be some progress in terms of the railways. We're eager to make further progress.

There is as well, I think—. In addition to introducing new standards, there is an important question about organisations that are newly created but are outwith the standards regime at the moment. There are some quite important bodies that have been created that are important to the growth of the Welsh language, in my opinion, and they're outwith the system at the moment. That includes Health Education and Improvement Wales, which has a prominent role in terms of training in the health and care sectors, and that will be extremely important for the future. So, discussions with Government are constructive at the moment, but what I want to try and ensure is that we have a programme in place for the term of this Senedd, setting out exactly what the Government's intentions are, because—

Commissioner, I do apologise for interrupting. I think Alun Davies had a supplementary question on something specific that you said. Sorry for interrupting. Alun.

Thank you. In responding to Heledd's questions, you've been discussing the processes that you've gone through, and I would like to ask for your view on that. I assume that you will have had initial conversations with Jeremy as the new Minister, but that relationship is going to take time to take hold and to develop—I understand that. Do you find that—? As a Minister, I found that the process of drawing up standards was extremely bureaucratic and it wasn't a process that I enjoyed at all. I saw that too much time and too many resources, frankly, were being wasted in a bureaucratic system that didn't create new rights for Welsh speakers but did create regulatory structures. There were times when I paused the process because I didn't see the value in my officials wasting time on it when they could have been doing something that would help and promote the use of the Welsh language. So, have you found that this process—? I know that when you came into post you said that you wanted to simplify the process, and I think that you made that clear in your responses this morning and in your report, but how do you see the process as it is today? Because, I have to say that I'm not sitting in the Chamber of our Senedd waiting to see new standards coming forward. I don't think that they create a great deal other than the bureaucracy involved with them.

It is a bureaucratic process, but what I'm eager to focus on is the impact of that process once the regulations have been made and passed, really. The only thing that I can say is that I have seen, over the past five years since regulations were put in place for local authorities, for example, a transformation in terms of the rights of Welsh speakers and learners to use the Welsh language with those bodies. And likewise, I think that even during COVID we have seen a major change to what I would have expected to have seen in the period prior to standards compared to what has happened because standards are in place. I—

Give me an example. Give an example of that.

Right. I don't believe, for example, that I would receive correspondence or would be offered services through the medium of Welsh by Betsi Cadwaladr health board under the pre-standards regime, because they know that there are requirements placed upon them in terms of the way that they plan their services. I don't believe that the Welsh Government would have ensured that all materials were available through the medium of Welsh in terms of the public health crisis that we've faced. And I say that too as I compare my experiences as a citizen in Wales to the experiences of others, in Ireland, in Canada, where there are no similar requirements placed on public bodies. So I've changed my views on standards, if I'm honest, since 2011. I was agnostic, because I'd had experiences as a council leader of language schemes, and I saw that language schemes were a bureaucratic process, where there was no real impact. But now, I don't see, with my council in Wrexham, for example, any problem with them noting my language of choice and ensuring that every contact that they have with me now, digitally, is through the medium of Welsh. So that's the impact of the standards.

I agree with you that the process itself is bureaucratic, but that process only happens once. And I have to deal with the process as it's set out in the Welsh language Measure at the moment. Now, what I do when the regulations are laid is that I effectively regulate those bodies captured. And what we've tried to do in these past two years is to improve the relationships, to make changes, so that we reach a point where these public bodies themselves see standards as being beneficial to them. Because the standards are quite clear in informing them what the requirements placed upon them are. And I think we have seen a change of attitude, but, more importantly, a change of behaviour among these bodies, because they understand exactly now what the requirements placed upon them are.

I also understand that we and the Government need to be entirely clear in avoiding duplication, in ensuring that the work that needs to be done before we impose standards is effective and efficient. So that's why I am very eager to ensure that my officials do meet with Government officials, and have open discussions about the lessons that have been learnt, within previous processes, yes, but also the fact that we have changed the way that we do things—in the most recent case, in relation to railways, where we have changed the way in which that preparatory work happens, and perhaps there may be scope for further change, I don't know. We do have to be careful as to what is legally correct in this area, but I am very eager that we reduce bureaucracy wherever possible. But I would want you to also focus on the impact that these regulations have in terms of the rights of Welsh speakers to use the Welsh language in their day-to-day engagement with public bodies captured under standards. And those experiences don't happen within public bodies that are still working under language schemes.

Heledd wants to come back in, but, Alun, if you have one further supplementary.

I was a member of the committee that put all of this in place, so I've had a decade of my life with people telling me that they're going to learn lessons, and what I want to see is action. I think the past decade has been more than enough time to learn these lessons. So, I want to see your office and the Government collaborating, and actually taking action against those lessons learnt, and reducing the bureaucracy that I see attached to standards at present. And I know that the law is at at fault here too.

I can give you an assurance that some of the lessons learned have already been implemented in the work that's been done on the railways. Both sides see that the situation has improved. But what I'm eager to do is to have further discussions with the new Minister and his officials to see if we can go a step further in terms of how we operate, because I'm very eager to ensure that all possible sectors are captured under standards. Because, the truth is, there are some sectors where there are bodies asking for clarity—

I'm sure that there are.

—on standards, rather than continuing to implement Welsh language schemes.

Okay, we'll go back to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much. Following on from that, it's a question that I asked of the Minister, and I'd like to hear your view on this too, if I may? Over the summer, the reports from the Arts Council of Wales and National Museum Wales were published, in terms of expanding access. Perhaps you saw the coverage linking standards placed upon those public bodies and the fact that they were seen as racist organisations, because they weren't expanding access. Do you have any comments to make on that, or what's your response to that?

Not at the moment, no, because this text is subject to investigation at the moment. So, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment. But I would be more than willing to return to you to explain my stance, once I've made an adjudication in this case.

Excellent. Thank you very much. That would be very much appreciated. One further question. In terms of standards, can you give us more information about the feedback that you've received from local authorities, national parks authorities and Welsh Ministers following the publication of the first code of practice in 2020?

Right. I will ask Gwenith to take this question, because she's responsible for the regulatory side. She can provide you with more detail on the code of practice.

Thank you very much. Yes, we've made a great deal of use of the code of practice that was agreed, and, as you said, it was a code of practice for the first regulations, and their purpose is to make statutory requirements clear. And, in response to consultations on codes of practice, the main message from public bodies captured under standards is that they are of value to them in better understanding what exactly the expectations are in practical terms. They've also been used, for example, in cases related to the tribunal. There were some challenges in the early stages, in terms of the No.1 regulations, and there have been investigations where organisations have failed to deliver, and the tribunal uses the codes of practice to help them make decisions on these cases. Now, since code of practice No.1 was approved, we have consulted on code of practice No. 2 to 6 now. And we have presented those to Government, following their completion and amendment, and that happened last week, as it happened. So, we're expecting consent on another four sets, but they are welcomed.

Heledd, anything else?

No. Thank you.

Just before we move to Hefin David, could I just ask whether there's been any progress in influencing the banking sector? I thought that would make you smile.

There has been some progress, yes. But, to be honest, there is a question arising—. Clearly, it's a matter of bringing influence to bear and persuading. It's very different to a situation where a body is captured under standards, where the requirements and expectations are quite clear. But, we do have a banking network now, and the thinking behind that was that we would seek to share good practice and to demonstrate exactly how important offering services through the medium of Welsh was to customers.

Clearly, part of the problem in this area is the changes that have taken place in banking over the past decade. Because the truth of the matter is that the banking sector was in the vanguard in terms of offering services through the medium of Welsh at one time, but because the branch network has largely disappeared over the past decade, then there's been far more emphasis on online and digital services. And that has been a tough nut to crack, because the number of meetings held to try and persuade the banks to provide apps through the medium of Welsh—. Well, they are numerous to say the least. So, we continue to persuade the banks and to share good practice with them.

We have succeeded in certain areas. We have a good relationship with some; a relationship that isn't perhaps as positive with others. But the Principality and Barclays and Natwest, for example, are working with us and they're very eager to see whether they can adopt the Cynnig Cymraeg, where they can explain exactly what services are available to their customers through the medium of Welsh. And also there are the services for children and young people provided by the Principality, Dylan the dragon—that is also available bilingually. Natwest have created bilingual resources for schools and so on. So, there is some change and the hope is that once one believes that the other is making some sort of progress, then they see it as a competition and they want to respond.

But I had thought that, over these past 12 months, we could have come to some sort of decision as to how much longer we're going to provide all of these resources for the banks where the response isn't perhaps as positive. But I do think that the response in terms of the Cynnig Cymraeg and the resources for children and young people over the past 12 months has created a situation where perhaps influence is starting to bear fruit, but we'll have to wait and see. We have been pushing apps and online services and I'm still eager to see that succeeding. Because once we get one creating a Welsh language app and that is used by Welsh speakers, then perhaps there will be a better response among the other banks, but I think the truth of the matter is that we have a long way to go.

Thank you for that, commissioner. We'll move on to Hefin David.

Thank you. You reached a compromise situation with regard to the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill with regard to the Government not approving a code of teaching for Welsh, as you'd requested. How effective has that compromised position been?

I think we're waiting to see. I asked the Minister at the meeting on Monday where we were in terms of a framework. I think the situation in terms of English-medium schools is crucially important here. The targets within 'Cymraeg 2050', in terms of the percentage of pupils in English-medium education who are fluent in Welsh at 16, are very challenging indeed. And the the truth of the matter is, unless there is a major change in the way that Welsh is taught within English-medium schools at the moment, then we won't reach that target. And that's why I was very eager to see a statutory code. As you said, there was a compromise in relation to the framework, but I have to accept that that's what was agreed by the Senedd, so I'm very eager to see the detail of the framework and, even more importantly, the timetable in terms of the publication of that framework. The Minister told us on Monday that the framework is being drafted at the moment. He's very eager that there should be meetings with us before the end of the year. So, I will be doing everything within my power to ensure that those discussions are constructive and that we convince the Minister in terms of any concerns that we may have in terms of the framework that's drawn up.

There are also questions arising, of course, in terms of the qualifications at the end of the journey through English-medium secondary schools. But I am convinced—I went to an English-medium school myself, and I was fortunate to speak Welsh at home. But the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of my friends in that school couldn't hold a conversation through the medium of Welsh once they'd left school and they'd been taught second language Welsh for around 12 years. So, that simply wasn't working in my view, and we have to change that if we are to deliver the ambitions of 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Sorry, I don't know if I'm supposed to unmute myself or the host is.

I think leave it; it's fine.

I leave it, do I? Okay.

I appreciate that answer, and it certainly chimes with some of my experience about how it's difficult to sustain learning Welsh, because the reason I'm not asking my questions in Welsh today is because of the summer break, in which I didn't speak much Welsh. It's something that’s very, very difficult to sustain. I think we really would have welcomed your comments—they could have been useful in the previous session with the Minister, but no doubt we’ll go back to these later.

With regard to the workforce, as a former university lecturer watching Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol at work, there's a definite challenge of providing teaching capacity to deliver as well, and you’ve made recommendations on that. How confident are you that we’ll see some progress there?

I am confident, although I would have liked to have seen a little more detail as to the timetable. Ultimately, there was an oral commitment made by the previous Minister on a 10-year plan for changes to the teacher training regime. That commitment is important in my view. The truth of the matter is that we have seen some slippage over this past five years in terms of the percentage of teachers leaving our colleges able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and we have to change that very quickly.

Again on Monday the Minister was eager to confirm that a plan was being prepared, but I am very eager to see more detail as to when that plan will be available so that we can first of all read it and then challenge it if we don't believe that it's ambitious enough. And I also think that during the next few months there may be an opportunity for us to influence the plan as it's drafted. So, I think the commitment is there, but we need to see more action.

And do you think that, therefore, a compromise needs to be made in the teaching of Welsh in English language schools in any way because of that? Or do you think that it's something that will cause problems more in the future than currently—the capacity of the workforce?

Capacity is a huge problem, of course. The capacity at present isn't adequate in terms of what's being offered, and that's the problem that we have. So, I am clear in my view that we need some sort of transformation in how Welsh is taught within English-medium schools, or the truth is that we may as well throw that target within 'Cymraeg 2050' to one side, because we have no hope whatsoever of achieving it. And that makes the challenge in terms of workforce training even greater, but, in my view, we shouldn't avoid trying to deliver against that challenge, if it's at all possible.

We have drawn up some stats as to how many additional teachers will be required if the Government is to deliver, but there are all sorts of things here. There are questions arising in terms of what kind of training is provided in terms of Welsh-language skills for all teachers undergoing training. It's not simply a matter of training those teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh, but what about those others—what are they are going to do in terms of their Welsh-language skills? Those students will have had 12 years of Welsh language education, but when they get to college, we do nothing to build on those skills and their ability to contribute towards our targets. We were over 300 teachers short in 2019-20, so we're not even reaching those targets at the moment—that's the point I'm trying to make—without some of transformation; I think we were 461 short in terms of secondary schools. So, the scale of the challenge is shocking, but the truth is that we won't do anything if all we do is continue to discuss the scale of the challenge for many years.

When you said that there needed to be a transformation or revolution in terms of the way the Welsh language is taught in English-medium settings, many committee members were nodding their heads in agreement.

I don't think that we're being fair to some of those teachers either, because the truth is that, within some schools, there are teachers who are asked to teach Welsh as a second language just because they're Welsh speakers themselves, without having any skills in teaching a second language to young people. And if we look at other models across the world, the truth is that you need additional skills to teach a second language. So, that's the revolution needed, or transformation. And, in addition to that, we need to look at the curriculum in terms of second language Welsh, and also the qualification at the end of that journey. That's why I was eager for that work to be done before the curriculum Bill was passed, but clearly the timetable was quite tight. The truth of the matter is that, yes, there has been attention paid to the need to increase Welsh-medium and bilingual provision, but, I think, in this new Wales, we shouldn't forget the needs and requirements in terms of teaching pupils in English-medium settings too.

Thank you. Hefin, was there anything else you wanted to ask? No. Excellent. Alun, any final questions from you?

No, I'm comfortable with the commissioner's responses.

Okay. We are into our last 15 minutes, commissioner. We will go through these questions as quickly as possible, but, in terms of financial accountability, how would you describe the financial position within your office at the moment?

We are aware that this year has been very unusual indeed, if truth be told, because—. I think the budgets of all public bodies are very different to what they may have expected. The truth of the matter is that most of our expenditure has been on staff, and those staff have been working from home without visiting any other organisation for 18 months. So, there are some areas where expenditure is far lower than we'd expected, and that creates a situation where we have to be aware of the issue of underspend. But on the other side of the coin, from our perspective, there are additional requirements that have arisen unexpectedly because of the cyber attack. So, on the one hand, there is an underspend, but on the other, there are additional requirements that are over and above what was expected, because we were very confident in our financial management of the ICT strategy up until 10 December.

There are also other considerations in terms of what the impact would be in terms of reserves, so that's been a consideration during this year. I'm also aware that there are plans by Government to look at reserves in more general terms. We received a letter yesterday from the Government explaining exactly what the proposals are in relation to that. But in case you feel that I am just transferring the issue to Gwenith or Dyfan when there's any detail required—but Dyfan is responsible for the financial side of things, so I want him to explain things to you in detail, because it is important. In terms of our reserves, there is a statutory reserve fund, but there's also a baseline reserve that we need to explain so that you can understand exactly what the position is at the moment.

Thank you for that. As Aled has said, there was some underspend last year, and we reported on that in the annual report. There were two main reasons for that, namely COVID and the cyber attack. That has an impact on our ability to spend on certain things such as travel and subsistence—that was the impact of COVID—and then there was underspend in terms of our programmes budget and the employment budget—that was a combination of COVID and the cyber attack.

We have a reserves policy where we keep 5 per cent of our revenue budget, which is some £160,000, along with £100,000 for legal costs. So, as a result of the underspend last year, our reserve increased. We have plans this year to reduce our reserves. That is mainly as a result of the new ICT proposals, the strategy that was in place in any case, but then our additional demands in light of the cyber attack. So, there has been underspend, which has led to an increase in reserves, but we do have plans this year to reduce those reserves.

Thank you for that, Dyfan. Commissioner or Dyfan, in terms of the increase there's been in legal costs and whether you've had to participate in court proceedings, can you tell us a little about how you respond to the challenge in that sense? It's difficult to plan for something like a court case, because nobody can know how much the costs will be. So, that must be a challenge.

Yes. During the previous year, it was a huge problem, because the budget had been set at a level where expenditure was over twice the level of the budget. So, we were reliant on underspend within other budgets in order to actually meet those legal costs.

When I looked at the situation with Dyfan and Gwenith, what was interesting was that expenditure on legal costs on an annual basis was very different from one year to the next. And that of course is because everyone has a right to take a case to tribunal, and therefore we do have to respond if there is a tribunal case. And I was very eager—and I think it was important at the time—that we were also involved with a High Court case in terms of one of our policy standards, where we were convinced that that standard had not been met by a particular local authority. And the costs there were quite significant, but in my view they were costs that could be justified.

Now, in the current year, the pattern has changed again, and that I think demonstrates how important it is to have some sort of understanding of the fact that we do need some reserves to pay legal costs as a contingency, because the truth of the matter is that we would have made use of over half of those reserves in the previous year. Clearly, too, and this is part of the discussion between ourselves and Government, we are in a very difficult situation where we are entirely reliant on Government in terms of our funding, but there are possibilities that legal costs could be spent in a case against the Government. So, that's what creates some level of uncertainty.

All I would say in terms of the reserves is I think there is a tendency in all public bodies I've been involved with that you try to safeguard your reserves, and almost if you dip into those reserves that you've failed in some way in terms of financial control and financial management. But I think, ultimately, the experience that we've had this year in terms of our cyber attack just demonstrates how important it is to have those reserves. And the truth of the matter is that, although we are facing costs, significant costs, in terms of rebuilding, and that that is partially because we are very eager to have systems in place that let us as a team work more effectively and allow our officials to work more effectively, too, but also provides a better service for citizens and those approaching us with complaints, it is appropriate that we do spend the funds that we hold in reserve in order to ensure that we can invest in these systems.

So, it's a complex pattern, but the general picture I want to paint for you is that we have strong financial management. We've received an unconditional report from Audit Wales, which is important to us, given that we lost our financial systems for a period of months. So, having that report not being qualified is important to us. But, clearly, we do have to keep an eye on changes emerging from COVID and also changes as a result of the cyber attack itself.

Thank you, Commissioner. I'm sorry, we have run out of time. We did have some questions in terms of the assurance report. Would you be happy for us to write to you with our questions on that? Because I don't think we can do that broad area justice in five minutes.

Of course, yes. And if there are any further questions emerging from our evidence, then I'd be more than happy to get back to you.

Excellent. Thank you very much. Unless any Member has any further questions—I don't see any Member indicating. So, may I thank you and Dyfan and Gwenith for providing evidence this morning? There are a number of points that we've noted where we will be asking for further information from you, and the clerks will also send you a transcript. But for the time being, thank you very much, and I'm sure we will be in touch again very soon.

Thank you.

We'll move on to item 5, papers to note. We have a number of papers to note. Item 5.1, a letter from the Minister for Social Justice to the Chair of this committee and the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee on the Welsh Government's response to the Afghan refugee crisis. Item 5.2, a letter from the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport on the ownership of Channel 4. Item 5.3, a letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner to the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee. Item 5.4, a letter to the Welsh Government following the ministerial session with the Minister for the Economy and the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip. And finally, item 5.5, a letter to the Welsh Government on the impact of the sale of Bad Wolf. Are Members content to note those papers? Excellent.

We'll move to item 6, a motion to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I propose that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Yes. We will move into private session, and I will await confirmation from our engineers that we have entered a private session.