Equality and Social Justice Committee

So, I now propose that the committee goes into private session briefly for item 4, before we resume to hear the Deputy Minister at 2 o'clock, and also that we meet in private session for items 7 and 8 today. Is that agreed? Thank you. Can we go into private session, please?

Welcome back to our final session on the importance of childcare and parental employment. I'd very much like to welcome the Deputy Minister for Social Services, for whom childcare is in your portfolio, and I wondered if you'd just like to introduce the officials you've brought with you.

Yes, thank you very much, Jenny. I'm very pleased to be here at this committee, and I'm very pleased to have Claire Bennett with me, and Nicola Edwards.

Thank you very much. Sioned, you were going to ask the first questions.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon to you all. I'm going to ask some questions to start about the effectiveness of current Welsh Government-funded childcare provision in Wales. I want to ask to what extent you think that Welsh Government-funded childcare provision supports the employment of parents, particularly mothers. Has that emphasis been correct? Because according to the evidence that we have heard, many groups do not believe that that should have been the emphasis, and that the data shows that—that it has not been that successful, and that 88 per cent of those who take up the offer already used childcare services. So, I want to hear about the data you're aware of, and also whether you think it has achieved the objective that was stated by the Welsh Government, namely, to help parents, and mothers in particular, to return to work. Thank you.

Diolch, Sioned, and thank you very much for those questions. Yes, I believe the childcare support that has been given through the childcare offer has been extremely successful in terms of supporting working parents. The childcare offer was obviously developed in response to calls for support from working parents, because we know how expensive childcare is. And I think it's important to make the point that we do fund other childcare as well as the childcare offer, through Flying Start and through the European social fund parents, childcare and employment programme, where we help parents back into work. But the evaluations that we've done every year about the offer have been very positive, and the reports have consistently found that parents felt it had improved their employment choices, with a greater proportion of women reporting that they were able to work more hours since taking up the offer, and they've had more flexibility in the jobs that they can do. And actually, the latest independent evaluation findings, which were published last Friday, once again found the scheme had been supporting parental employment. There were a range of positive impacts—over half, 53 per cent, said it had given them more flexibility in the way they work. Nearly half, 46 per cent, said it had given them the potential to increase their earnings. Over a third, 36 per cent, felt the offer had improved their opportunities for in-work training, and nearly a third believed that they would be working fewer hours had the offer not been available to them. And actually, crucially, 9 per cent of the parents said they wouldn't be in work if it wasn't for accessing the offer, and 6 per cent indicated they would be working in a job with lower pay. So, I think, for those families, the offer is making a significant difference.

I'd also add, I think, the difference it's made has been to lower income families. Evaluation of the earnings of those people who access the offer shows that they're of medium to lower earnings, the majority, and so it's obviously been a great help to them financially.

Thank you, Minister. That's interesting because the children's commissioner has just quoted us a figure saying that in the data that they had, 58 per cent of people who had responded said that there was no impact at all on their employment, so evidently there's a discrepancy there between the findings of the Government's figures and what the children's commissioner referred to.

If I can turn now to Flying Start, research by Save the Children highlights that 44 per cent of children in poverty live outside Flying Start areas, and we've had evidence from the engagement sessions that we've held. I think somebody in the Rhondda mentioned the fact she lived in one street and her circumstances were exactly the same as someone on the street opposite, and she could have access to childcare through Flying Start, but her neighbour couldn't. So, do you think that the geographical focus of the programme provides sufficient childcare and wider support for two-year-olds in households experiencing poverty? Do you have any changes planned around this, particularly given the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru?

Thank you again, Sioned, for that question. And just to say quickly in response to the previous question, the evaluation I was quoting was an independent evaluation. So, to go on to Flying Start, I think Flying Start is one of our greatest achievements, really, and I think it's really important to remember that it is—. There are four elements to it; it's not just the childcare, as you know. It's the parenting support, the speech and language support and the intensive health visiting. And it has been very successful. The evaluation of Flying Start has shown that it has brought up—. The children from the areas of deprivation have been able to reach an equal level with children from more prosperous areas. So, it is absolutely a great programme, and I'm very supportive it.

And I absolutely agree with the comments that you've made that it does only reach a certain number of children in poverty, and it's really important to have as many children as possible to access Flying Start. So, in the programme for government, there's already a commitment to support the Flying Start programme, and the geographical nature does mean that it is concentrated in certain areas and it is also universally available in those areas, which I support very strongly because I think it's so important that the provision should be available on a universal basis, because you do get rid of stigma in that way. And yet, you reach the most deprived areas. So, I think it's actually developing in exactly the right way.

Flying Start is able to have outreach now beyond the geographical areas, and that depends, really, on each local authority how that is developed. So, it does stretch beyond the geographical areas at the moment but, obviously, we do want to expand Flying Start. We're absolutely delighted that we've got the co-operation agreement but, obviously, we haven't had any of the detailed discussions about that. But, obviously, we have the commitment in the agreement, and I'm very hopeful that we'll be working away on Flying Start and we'll be able to improve the access for many more children in Wales.

Sioned, before you move on to another subject, I just wanted to ask Julie Morgan if you could just explain something in your written evidence, which is that those who attend the Flying Start provision meet the expected outcomes in all areas of learning, but those with lower attendance do not. Are you not concerned that—? What are the numbers that are not making the right progress, because they obviously can't attend unless a parent brings them, or an adult brings them?

Well, I think it's—. Those that attend fully get the most benefit, and so those that don't attend fully obviously aren't getting the most benefit, so every effort must be made to help and encourage. I think that's why I mentioned earlier on that there are other elements to Flying Start—the intensive support from the health visitor, parenting classes—and I think the success of Flying Start is having all those elements together. Obviously, that's an important point that I know we have picked up.

Okay. So, are you able to send us a breakdown of the numbers of two-year-olds who are attending full time, as opposed to those who are attending infrequently?

Yes, certainly. I don't know whether Claire or Nicola have got those figures to hand or whether we—. No, we'll send them to you.

Thank you very much indeed. Sioned, back to you.

Thank you, Chair. I want to pick up on making every effort to ensure that everyone who is entitled to this provision can attend those sessions, because another thing we've heard about is not a lack of information, but that the information is difficult for people to understand and to get access to. So, in your opinion, how effective do you think the Welsh Government and local authority family information services are in ensuring that parents are aware of their childcare entitlements? It appears from some of the oral and written evidence that we've received, that there is difficulty and that it is complex, and that the journey—. We heard somebody from one of the providers saying that it should be a single journey and that that's clear when you have a child, that you know exactly what each step will be, rather than trying to find that information at every step of that journey. So, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Yes. Diolch. The landscape is complicated and I absolutely accept that, and also I think it's important to know that parents have different needs, and different needs for different times of their life, so it's important that we're able to have one point where they can find that information. Now, the family information services are the key local point, and I think it's very important that we do have a local point in order to access those services, because obviously local knowledge is very important, and they have an understanding of the provision that is in their area, so that is very important. And certainly, the family information services played an absolutely key role during the initial stages of the pandemic, supporting families to find and to access childcare at a point when many settings had temporarily closed. So, they certainly were invaluable at that point, and they also supported the delivery of the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, when many families were approaching them about accessing formal childcare for the first time, which happened when that scheme was introduced, and that absolute local knowledge was there. And they do provide free, impartial support, guidance and advice on a range of family issues, which include childcare, the costs, family programme, finance, all those sorts of issues. So, I think it is a good service, but obviously it needs to be advertised as widely as it possibly can. I mean, we did make every effort during the pandemic to highlight the fact that we were supporting childcare for vulnerable children and for key workers, and we publicised widely the coronavirus childcare assistance scheme, directing to the family information services. But inevitably, some families will not have heard of this, so I think it is behoven on us to publicise it as much as we possibly can.

Thank you, yes, and in terms of making the language less complicated—. We've heard a lot in the sessions over recent weeks, but also this morning, about the lack of provision for people from ethnic minorities and so maybe we need more of a focus on the availability of information in those languages.

Moving on now to a slightly different subject, in August last year, the Welsh Government provided £4 million in funding to childcare providers for grants to cover the cost of rent and utilities and unmet wages. And in September this year, it provided £3.5 million to local authorities to assist with the short-term impacts of the pandemic. I'd like to know what assessment you have made of the effectiveness of this spending. There were some concerns raised by Wales TUC that this expenditure had been inconsistent and perhaps not as effective as it should have been.

Thank you. As you say, we launched the £4 million childcare provider grant in the summer of 2020 in response to calls for direct financial help from the sector. Some of the settings were able to access direct financial support from the wider Welsh Government and the UK Government, including furlough, but there were a number that were telling us at the time that they were ineligible for that and that they were struggling, and the childcare provider grant was part of filling that gap for those who weren't able to access the wider ones. And, in fact, it's proved not to have had as much take-up as we would've wished, and we did feel that—. I mean, we did discuss it with one of the committees, actually, of the Senedd at the time, and I can remember very well the discussions when concerns were expressed about whether it was devised in the right way to reach people. And in fact, of the estimated 1,000 settings that were eligible for the childcare provider grant, successful applications were received from only 162 settings, with a total spend of £0.5 million and an average of £3,000 per setting. And that was obviously disappointing; we were very disappointed, as we would've liked more settings to have taken up the support. Those who had it thought it was useful, but that was a very disappointing outcome.

We haven't undertaken a formal independent evaluation of the grant, but we have collected feedback from local authorities who were administrating it, and from the umbrella bodies, and we've also got some feedback directly from the settings. So, comments included the complexity of the grant process and the requirement to evidence losses, which some settings found it difficult to do. Settings were also put off by the risk of having to repay if they had to close. Other settings were ineligible due to an unwillingness to become incorporated, because they had to become incorporated in order to access the grant, or because they temporarily had to de-register, because this was aimed at registered providers.

So, it didn't work out in the way that we wanted it to, and as I say, we haven't got an independent evaluation, but we are pretty sure that those are the reasons—too complicated, too difficult and too many barriers, basically, to accessing it. So, in response to that, we looked again at how best to support the sector, and over the last financial year, we directed £5.3 million in funding to the sector via the children and communities grant administered by local authorities, and this enables local authorities to assess the situation on the ground and provide small-scale sustainability grants according to the need in the local areas. So, through this mechanism, we have been able to provide funding to cover losses experienced by business as a result of reduced demand. Again, we haven't had formal evaluation of that funding, but feedback does suggest that it was of great benefit, and that's why we decided to direct a further £3.5 million in support via the children and communities grant in this financial year.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Deputy Minister, I just want to welcome the agreement between Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour to expand childcare to two-year-olds, which has been announced since we started this inquiry, but clearly I think that's welcomed by all Members. Could you just provide the committee with whatever detail you're able to to flesh out those two-liners, obviously with a particular focus on strengthening Welsh-medium childcare? How many weeks of the year are two-year-olds going to be getting childcare? Could you just say anything about any eligibility criteria, or will it be all two-year-olds?

Well, I'm awfully sorry, I'm not really in a position to say a lot more, because I don't want to say what we're going to do before we've had the discussions with my Plaid opposite number. So, I wouldn't like to shoot the gun, so to speak—jump the gun—and talk about it now without having any further discussion with our partners in the co-operation agreement. But we do welcome it, obviously, as you say, very strongly, and we are very, very pleased that we have together agreed on this aim, and we will be working very hard at it. But also we will be working in conjunction with the childcare sector, because we can promise as much as we like in terms of places, but we've got to have the staff there and we've got to have the settings. So, there's going to be a lot of work in order to increase the facilities available to two-year-olds, but I'm looking forward to starting as soon as we can.

Very good. I understand we can only deliver what we can deliver, but I just want to put to you the scenario raised by Rachel Thomas, the head of policy in the office of the children's commissioner, earlier this afternoon, when she says that if we're going to give childcare places to two-year-olds, how would you see that child's development once they reach the age of three? Presumably they wouldn't be chucked out of the nursery provision just because the parents of the now three-year-old were not in work.

Well, obviously, these are all very important issues that we will have to look at, and also the link between the two-year-old's provision and the three-year-old's provision is obviously something that has got to be considered. So, I think you've highlighted one of the issues that we'll have to look at.

Okay. I think one of the big issues that has come up in our earlier scrutiny sessions has been the lack of co-operation from some schools—that they're simply not allowing childcare providers to operate in schools, for example in the school holidays, or not giving them keys to the school premises. I appreciate that some schools have very limited footprints, because there are buildings all around them—they can't expand. But most schools have quite generous provision of land and buildings, and under what circumstances are we not developing that resource, which is a public resource, in those public services?

That is a key issue, and certainly I think it's important to remember that we have been in a pandemic, and there have been issues with concerns that schools have about sharing premises when a totally different group of children may come into the premises. We understand the concerns that there have been about that, but obviously we're doing all we can to encourage those schools to open up and allow others onto the premises. I think that situation has improved, but I know that there have been difficulties in relation to the out-of-school provision that is on the same site as schools. That's something I have discussed with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, about encouraging headteachers to feel that they are able to open up existing after-school clubs that are on the premises. And it's obviously a huge advantage of having childcare provision on the premises of schools, if only for the carbon footprint benefits of that. We have invested a lot of money in capital funding—£80 million of capital funding in childcare since 2018—and over half of that was invested in Welsh-medium settings and about £24.8 million invested in Flying Start provision over the same period. But the funding for childcare and Flying Start is managed alongside the wider twenty-first century schools investment programme, which does support investment in provision on school sites.

And I do think that single-site provision is important, but it is very important that we continue our work on community-focused schools, because we want to tackle this issue of the use of schools outside the school day. And it's not just an issue for childcare, because, as far as I can see, it's essential that we have community-focused schools and all the community benefit from the schools, and they are at the heart of the community. So, those are important issues about how we're going to encourage the schools to be more, and continue to be, accessible to the childcare provision.

I appreciate that the particulars of containing COVID require particular public health provisions, but, leaving that to one side at the moment, how are we going to expand childcare at the rate required unless we move from simply encouraging schools to mandating schools to deliver community-focused provision?

I think schools will benefit from a much greater deal of encouragement to open up. Obviously, that's something that the education Minister is very keen to develop—to have more community-focused schools—and I just think we have to put a great focus on it. It is essential for childcare that we do have the schools opening up, because of the link between childcare and the schools, and the importance for parents. So, that's why a lot of our developments and the capital funding we've been putting in have been on school sites, and we have to do everything we can to make sure it's successful.

One of the issues that has been raised is that if you haven't got the childcare on the same site as the wraparound provision, you're moving children around from pillar to post, and particularly for children with additional learning needs. At what point do you think you're going to get a little bit more insistent with primary schools that they must see the needs of the whole child from age two?

At the moment, we're working with them and we're encouraging them, and we hope that the impetus that we're going to put into the childcare offer, and the impetus we're going to put into Flying Start will bring with it an impetus across the whole of the community to recognise the huge value of childcare, the huge value for children and for parents, and the best impetus will make us move towards a greater openness, which I know we all support.

Okay. Altaf Hussain wanted to come in.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister. Since we are talking about the co-operation agreement with Plaid, which commits to expanding free childcare to all two-year-olds, with a particular focus on providing and strengthening Welsh-medium childcare, can the Minister confirm how much money is to be allocated to delivering this, including the cost of training of the additional staff required? And also, will the Minister commit to presenting a plan to this committee to demonstrate how this will be distributed, and how the concern about the current provision under examination by this committee will be addressed? Thank you.

Thank you. Basically, Altaf, what you wanted to know was how much it was going to cost to extend the childcare. Well, for the childcare offer, you will know that we have committed to extend it—in the programme for government, this is—to education and training. So, that's to parents who are in education and training, which it doesn't apply to at the moment. I think we've estimated that that will cost possibly up to £10 million extra per year. In terms of the Flying Start increase, we don't have any figures for that yet, because that's part of the co-operation agreement, and as I said, we can't go into that until I've had more discussions with our partners.

I will have an interest in that.

Thank you.

Can I just come back to something that isn't in the Plaid-Labour agreement? The programme for government commits to fund childcare for three and four-year-olds whose parents are in education and training as well as those in work, and I wondered if you could give us an idea of how that's going to be implemented, because clearly it involves expanding the workforce.

How we're actually going to do it at the moment we are discussing. We did do a report to look at where people in education and training were, at the moment, getting childcare, if they were able to access childcare, and there are quite a few places where they can access childcare support already. What we are doing is mapping where the gaps are, and where the gaps are, we will be then using the childcare offer to give them the opportunity of having the free childcare that we offer to three and four-year-olds. At the moment, there are different ways of accessing childcare, not generally under my portfolio, but the European social fund has supported some childcare and paying for childcare. There is quite a bit of help already there and we certainly don't want to duplicate. So, what we're trying to do is to analyse where the gaps are and then bringing in the help in those gaps. As I said to Altaf Hussain, that, we estimate, will cost about £10 million in addition, and so that will mean that we will have to provide more places and the workforce will have to expand.

Okay. We've got a reasonably good idea of where the gaps are, because a lot of people have done an analysis of this, and it's mainly in the areas of deprivation where, obviously, people need to improve their skills in order to get a better job and then be able to afford more childcare. So, is the Government actually actively pursuing how they're going to deliver on that?

Oh, yes. We're working extremely hard on this. Perhaps I can bring Nicola in, because Nicola is working on this at the moment. I don't know whether, Nicola, you'd like to come in on this, or Claire—what you're doing about this at the moment.

Can I just check with the Chair? What you're asking specifically is what we're doing to expand childcare support for parents in education and training, or to expand childcare provision more generally?

The Deputy Minister said the fine detail of the agreement with Plaid Cymru hasn't been worked out yet, so I'm pursuing the matter of what's already in the programme for government on which the Welsh Government was elected. How are you pursuing that? I appreciate we don't want to duplicate effort, but those who are already in education and getting childcare at the college are going to be supplemented by a whole host of other people who suddenly think, 'There is an opportunity for me to increase my skills.'

As the Deputy Minister said, there was a review published earlier in the year that looked at the range of programmes that are already in this space and the gaps that we have. As you said, some of those are quite well-known gaps that have been around for a little while. We've been confirming and drawing those out a bit more. We've also been looking at the wide range of programmes that we've got in place across Welsh Government that sit in this space.

It's not just support available through the further and higher education institutions. Some of our employability programmes, particularly programmes like PaCE and Communities for Work, also include an element of support for childcare costs. There's also support available through universal credit and through other schemes funded by the Department for Work and Pensions, which we're obviously very keen to take into account, because I think we're very clear that we don't want to be duplicating schemes that the UK Government is offering if that means that we then find that we've lost out on our own money, if you like; we want to fill in the gaps and make the best of the Welsh money that we can do in that context.

So, we've been looking at all of that and drawing all of that together. We're also acutely aware that we don't want to be in a position whereby in providing additional support through programmes like the childcare offer, we inadvertently find ourselves in a position where wider elements of universal credit funding are then taken away, because it's counted as income in some way that can counteract against other support mechanisms that are available.

So, we've been doing all of that work; a lot of that mapping through, looking at where it would be. Some of this is about geographically where it might be, and you're right in terms of provision of childcare; traditionally, it tends to be in areas of higher demand, so those tend to be areas with high levels of employment or along commuter routes where you have a built-in market. We've also been looking at particular sectors where we need to grow the workforce, and where we maybe think we need to target more at parents to come back into education and training to boost the workforce in those areas by gaining relevant skills. A lot of that mapping work is still going on to make sure that we get it right.

I think, obviously, we're still awaiting the draft budget and then the final budget before any particular confirmation can be made as to what the scheme might look like and what timescale we'll be looking to deliver over, but I can assure you that there's a huge amount of work going on in the background, mapping data and evidence on skills, on deprivation levels, on where training and education providers are located and on the different programmes that parents can access to make sure that what we do provide fits the gap in the way that's needed.

At what point might you be able to give us a note on what childcare is funded by the UK Government? Because I have to say, that was news to me.

There's obviously the tax-free childcare scheme, which has been around for a little while in terms of support, although that is aimed more at parents who are in work. Then, DWP do provide some support for parents who are on particular training courses or accessing particular support to get them back into work—they will pay for childcare for people going to job interviews, for example, or coaching sessions ahead of that. And they're a joint beneficiary for Parents, Childcare and Employment, which is the ESF-funded programme that I mentioned earlier, so there is interaction there as well. Some of this was drawn out in the independent report I mentioned that was published in March and we'll make sure that you get sent a copy of that as well.

Okay. Thank you very much. Finally, Deputy Minister, I just wondered if you agree that a childcare system based on progressive universalism is eventually going to lead to a universal system of childcare for all.

Well, I think we would love to have a universal childcare system for all, and it would be absolutely great if we could reach that, but we're certainly quite a long way away from that at the moment. As we've said several times, we're in discussion about the direction of travel—well, we know what the direction of travel is towards, but how we're actually going to move forward is part of the partnership co-operation discussion that we'll be having.

Okay. Thank you very much. Could I now ask Sarah Murphy to come in with her questions?

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Minister. I wanted to start by asking a question about the Wales TUC, who had participants take part in focus groups run by the committee. They expressed concern about the lack of staff from ethnic minorities within the childcare workforce. How would the Welsh Government respond to this, and what consideration has it given to interventions to help recruit more childcare staff from ethnic minorities, please?

We have launched a race equality action plan, as you know, as a Government, and this is the first time, really, that such an ambitious programme has been launched. It's also being consulted upon at the moment. The underrepresentation of black, Asian and minority ethnic people in all areas of the workforce has been an absolutely consistent theme. It's absolutely true in the childcare workforce, and as part of the race equality action plan, we want to change that.

We have taken some actions. We've provided funding to the CWLWM childcare consortium to support our vision of an anti-racist Wales. We have given them specific funding to do that. We've also agreed plans with CWLWM to promote Welsh-medium childcare in ethnic minority communities and to develop resources related to anti-racist principles, including webinars and training to support childcare practitioners. CWLWM funding also supports the commissioning of Nodau Natur/Nature Notes, an innovative nursery rhymes project in six languages for use in childcare settings to raise awareness of the diversity of Welsh and Welsh heritage, and celebrating communities and cultures that have settled in Wales.

I think this is a very wide issue. We can say we want Social Care Wales, which obviously has a lot of responsibility with regard to the social care workforce, to make efforts to reach out to people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, and I think that they do do that through some of their advertising and promotions, which we pay them to do, but it really reflects what are the views of the whole of society. That's why the race equality action plan that we're taking forward as a Government is so important to tackle the racism that we do know exists in Wales, and that's why we want to have anti-racist policies. It's very important, I think, that this is highlighted in the childcare workforce.

Thank you, Minister. A number of witnesses have highlighted a lack of provision for children with disabilities and complex needs. Coram Family and Childcare found that only 19 per cent of Welsh local authorities have sufficient childcare for children with disabilities across their area. What action will the Welsh Government take to improve this?

Thank you. Again, children with complex needs and with disabilities—it's absolutely crucial that they get the same opportunities as other children do, and we've got to make it as easy as possible for them to access the provision that we fund. We make funding of about £1.5 million per year available to local authorities through the childcare offer for Wales additional support grant, and this funding helps ensure that children with additional needs who are eligible for the offer are able to access the childcare element in the same way as other eligible children.

It can be invested in a whole variety of ways—for example, one-to-one support; the money can be used for that. It can also be used to support training needs or provision of equipment. Our capital investment programme has provided small grants of up to £10,000 to support adaptations to premises, including where these are needed to assist with issues around accessibility and also the provision of more complex support. So, we do provide that to local authorities to help children with disabilities access the facilities.

We've provided funding to the CWLWM childcare consortium for an additional learning needs and Welsh language research programme to identify specific challenges in the Welsh-medium sector. CWLWM funding also supports the development of guidance and training and awareness-raising materials for the early years sector. More information will actually be made available when the local authorities have their childcare sufficiency assessments, which will be published now next year, and those sufficiency assessments will show where all the needs are. So, we do make specific provision for children who have got complex needs, and I think it's very important that that is taken up.

Sarah, before you go on, I think Altaf just wanted to come in.

Thank you very much, Chair. Does the Minister accept that 81 per cent of local authority provision is inadequate for disabled children? If so, what action will the Welsh Government take to improve this?

I don't know, the 81 per cent figure, where that actually came from. I don't know whether that was mentioned at the beginning of the questions, where the 81 per cent comes from. So, I'm not able to verify it or not. But I would entirely accept that from the contact that I have with families with disabled children, and through the general knowledge of what happens, that there's a lot more to do. We absolutely accept that, Altaf, that the facilities are not spot on for all children with complex needs and who are disabled.

Minister, Nicola Edwards wanted to come in.

Yes.

I didn't. Sorry, I might have indicated I did, but I genuinely didn't—.

Sorry, I beg your pardon. I do apologise. I put you on the spot; I thought then you were raising your hand.

That's okay. I'm assuming, if it came from one of the previous studies, like maybe the Coram trust, which was referred to, I can't really comment on the data, the 81 per cent. But, I think, the Deputy Minister is correct, there is more to do, and I think that the previous round of childcare sufficiency assessments suggested there was more to do as well. So, we look forward to the next round of them to see what they say.

Okay. Back to Sarah.

Thank you. I think the 81 per cent is probably just inverting the 19 per cent, where it says 19 per cent of local authorities have sufficient—. However, having been a researcher myself, it doesn't mean necessarily that 81 per cent doesn't; it just means that there's data to support that 19 per cent do. That's just my guess on where that 81 per cent came from.

My last question is just about the lack of childcare available for parents who work atypical hours. And we did hear a lot on this because I think it was obvious that this is particularly difficult, to provide that childcare, especially if people are working nights and things like this. There's not a lot for that at the moment. As part of this part of the inquiry as well, we were very fortunate to hear evidence from a representative in Sweden talking about the childcare provision that they have there. And they said that this is an issue that they have as well, trying to provide that wraparound care for people who work atypical hours.

So, we were just wondering, what approaches are you considering to address this issue here in Wales, and are you looking at international examples, such as nattis, which is what it's called, the childcare available in some parts of Sweden?

Thank you. I've heard of—. 'Nattis' it's called, isn't it, I think? I've heard of that provision, and there's obviously quite a lot of it, from what I've heard. And it obviously answers a need. So, we have looked at international provision when we're thinking about how we're going to expand. But it is a challenge to provide this sort of provision because we have to be sure that the level of demand would be sufficient to make it viable. And, in practice, it may be that the numbers of parents who need formal childcare overnight may not be high, but we know that a lot of parents do need childcare in the evenings, and they do need it over the weekend as well, which fits into the atypical childcare provision.

And there are some childcare settings in Wales that do offer late evenings, and some offer weekend care, which shows there is a willingness within the market to meet the need. But on overnight care, the options are more limited, and obviously there's a lot of things to consider if you're providing overnight care—safe sleep spaces and meeting the safeguarding concerns and all those sorts of issues. And the local authorities will be considering the availability of childcare to support parents working atypical hours in the childcare sufficiency assessments. So, we'll get a lot more information next year about how much of a demand there is for this. And, in their action plans, the local authorities will have to address any gaps in provision and report on the progress every year. So, if the sufficiency plans do show that there is a significant need, that is something that the local authorities will need to address.

And I think it's worth saying that the funding that's available under the childcare offer could be used for atypical childcare. It doesn't—. We've never said that cannot be used for evenings, weekends, nights. But obviously, it has to be used in a registered setting. So, it will be interesting to see what the childcare sufficiency assessments come out with next year, and see if there is a demand for this.

Thank you—

Thank you. We need to move on; we've only got 10 minutes left. So, short questions and short answers, please. Altaf. You're on mute. No, you're not any longer.

Am I all right?

You're fine—go ahead.

Okay. Your written evidence states that £9.2 million has been invested to train and upskill childcare workers through the Progress for Success scheme, which is funded by structural funds and will end in 2023. What plans are you making to follow up this scheme, and how might the plans to expand childcare provision impact upon the amount of funding that a successor scheme might require? Thank you.

Thank you. Well, Progress for Success continues to be a key source of support for practitioners who are looking to upskill their childcare or their play qualifications. Funding under Progress for Success will come to an end in March 2023, and we await confirmation as to whether the ESF funding will be replaced by UK Government funding. As we all know, we were told that we would not receive any less funding as a result of us not being eligible for ESF funding any longer. So, we await to see, because we think it is very important that this type of programme continues. As part of our longer term early childhood education and care planning, we'll develop a plan for the workforce, which will detail the support and investment required. And while some of that will be discussed in relation to increasing the provision for two-year-olds, it will also be part of the longer term approach.

Right. Thank you very much. My last question is: while expanding the childcare provision, the Scottish Government has increased training opportunities and taken measures to secure payment of the real living wage. What plans does the Welsh Government have for taking forward fair work within the sector?

Obviously, pay is very important, and we are exploring the real living wage for the social care workforce, and that is something that is under discussion at the moment. I know the Scottish Government is further ahead with those sorts of discussions than we are, but we're working closely with the Scottish Government, to learn from their examples.

Thanks, Minister. Thank you, Chair.

Ken.

Thanks, Chair. Thanks for joining us, Minister. Just two quick questions. First of all, the £4.50 hourly rate for the new childcare offer; what consideration have you given, or are you giving, to increasing it to £5? We've heard providers citing the reimbursement as an important factor in delivery of support. And then, secondly, is there to be an independent review of child minding? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ken, for those questions. Yes, we are in the process of reviewing the hourly rate for childcare, paid through the childcare offer for Wales. And we expect to announce that in the new year, so that's fairly soon, so we'll hear about that. And the second question was the—.

Is there to be an independent review into child minding?

Into child minders, yes. Yes, we will be having an independent review of child minders, because the number of child minders has dropped. It was dropping before the pandemic, and child minders are such a hugely valuable part of the childcare landscape that we think it's very important to find out what's behind this. So, we will be having a review, starting next year.

Very good. And Jane Dodds.

Just really quickly, just to end. One of the themes that we've been hearing throughout certainly today and other days is the issue around equality of access to childcare. I'm just wondering what the Welsh Government might be considering, in terms of an overall review of equality issues around accessing childcare. This may fit in with your thoughts and discussions around the agreement with Plaid Cymru. So, we’ve heard about equality of opportunity for black and minority ethnic parents—and I’ve certainly met with a few, and heard about the challenges that they face; Welsh-speaking families; particular geographical areas; and ages, et cetera. So, it’s just flagging up something, and I just wondered if the Welsh Government might be considering really taking a step back and looking at that holistically. Thank you.

Thank you. The development of Welsh-medium childcare provision is mentioned in the agreement with Plaid Cymru. The expansion of two-year-olds is especially concentrated on making sure that there is more Welsh language provision. So, we’re definitely looking at that and very committed to that.

The race equality stuff—I think one of the things we’ve had back to us through the consultation about the race equality strategy is that there isn’t enough there about what black, Asian and minority ethnic women want. One of those issues was childcare and the issue of childcare delivered by black and minority ethnic people for children. So, we are going to have that as one of the threads that we’re going to look at in particular. So, I think, moving on, there will be an expansion of childcare. We want to make sure, I think as you say, Jane, that it is an expansion that is holistic in terms of equality and equal opportunities. We know how important childcare is, and it determines, often, life chances for children, so that’s why the Government wants to invest so much into childcare.

Okay. There are just a couple of other things I just wanted to pick up. One is: I know that the children's commissioner was extremely unhappy that there wasn't a due regard review given to children’s rights when looking at childcare, and I wondered, as you’re reviewing how the Government’s going to deliver and expand childcare, whether you’re going to be having an appropriate regard to children’s rights in this context.

Well, I think we can certainly take that into account. We are, obviously, going to be looking at how we’re going to move forward, generally, and we can certainly consider that.

Okay. Thank you.

You referred to the race equality action plan in your earlier remarks and that that was an important part of the landscape of improving the diversity of the workforce, but an earlier witness, Shavanah Taj from the Wales TUC, was very concerned that the race equality action plan was silent on childcare. So, I just wondered if you could, perhaps, send us a note on how you think that lack of is going to be addressed, and perhaps you have plans to revise the race equality action plan.

Yes. As a result of the consultation, this has been raised, and it will now be one of the parts of the strategy that we’ll be pursuing.

Very good. Okay. Altaf, you just wanted to have the final word. Come in.

Just a question about education, and knowing your rights. Are we going to educate our children about their rights in schools? Thank you.

Yes. As you know, we’re totally committed to children’s rights. The Welsh Government has been committed to children’s rights since devolution began, and I’ll be shortly speaking to the Senedd about our latest plan on children’s rights. But it’s really important that children know what their rights are, and we already have schools that specialise in being children’s rights schools, and it’s fundamental.

Okay. And lastly, from me, the interim chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission for Wales was very keen to ensure that the Welsh Government did a disparity audit so that we know exactly what the composition of the workforce is—how diverse or white is it? Because we simply don't have enough information on this, and that, obviously, needs to inform whatever action you're going to take to rectify that. So, have you got any plans to do a much more in-depth profile of the existing workforce?

I can see that Claire's got her hand up, so she wants to come in. Claire.

Claire.

One of the other programme for government commitments is to establish a race disparity unit, a disability disparity unit and an equality data unit, and the purpose of having those analytical resources is to enable us to undertake just that type of assessment. There'll be a question, I guess, of in which order to undertake reviews, but I think taking account of areas that might be a priority for committee would be one of the things that could inform the work programmes of those units, and not just looking at what is the position, but also then looking at the effectiveness of different strategies to make improvements in terms of diversity. So, I think those will be really important developments through next year of having that significantly increased capability to support our equality work.

Okay. Well, just to give you a hint, I think we've heard quite a lot of evidence that people don't think the workforce is as culturally appropriate as it needs to be, and that that puts some parents off from wanting to go anywhere near it. So, clearly, it's something that needs to be a priority to inform the way you're going to expand the workforce and make it more welcoming to everybody.

Yes, definitely.

Very good. Thank you very much. I'm afraid we've run out of time, and I know you've got another important meeting. So, obviously, we're going to send you a transcript of your evidence, and you'll, obviously, need to correct it where you've been misheard. But I want to thank you very much indeed for coming along today, because I appreciate that you've got all sorts of issues to deal with, particularly taking forward the latest childcare expansion plan. So, thank you very much indeed and we'll speak again soon.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thanks. Bye.

Bye.

Can we now move back into private session? Oh no, sorry, I beg your pardon.

We've got some papers to note, and I just wondered if the committee is happy to note the three papers, or if there's anything they want to highlight in the meantime, or if we can just agree to note them.

I can't see any dissension on that, so we'll note them and then move back into private session, please. If you could let us know once the broadcast has ended.