Petitions Committee

Item 3, updates to previous petitions. Item 3.1, P-05-954, 'Petition for a public inquiry by the Welsh Government into the historic child abuse on Caldey Island', and this was submitted by Kevin O'Connell, with 5,088 signatures. Can I ask Members to discuss this petition and any possible actions? Any thoughts from Members on the petition? Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. This is a very long-standing petition, and I am racking my brains on where we can go with this now, especially given that the Minister has already ruled out or rejected calls for a public inquiry. I think we're all very aware of how difficult the situation is. There comes a point, I think, with the Petitions Committee in particular, where we look back on some of these petitions and we see the amount of work that we've done on them already, and this is one of those petitions where we can see how much work we've done and we're at a loss as to where we can go forward with this now.

It is with some reluctance that I would suggest that we close the petition. I'm deeply sympathetic with the issue, but it's one of those things now where I just can't see where our own committee can go with this and that, perhaps, it's time for somebody else to take this on. It is something I say with a heavy heart, as well.

Thank you for that, Luke, and I would share your compassion of where you've delivered your thoughts there, and I would agree with them. I can see Joel in agreement too—

I am.

—sadly, I think this is something that we do now have to close as a Petitions Committee.

Item 3.2, P-06-1203, 'Do not roll out Covid 19 vaccine passports for retail, hospitality or other premises'.

'We want the Welsh Government to commit to not rolling out any e-vaccination status/immunity passport to the Welsh public. Such passports could be used to restrict the rights of people who have refused a Covid-19 vaccine, such as preventing them from accessing shops, supermarkets or other premises, which would be unacceptable.'

And this was submitted by Stephen Pearce, with 336 signatures. Can I ask Members to discuss this petition? Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. This is one of those issues, again, that's been debated in the Chamber now. I think, as the Petitions Committee, we've done our end of the work, I can't see where we can take this now, other than us as individual Members raising our own concerns or our own thoughts on vaccine passports in the Chamber. I do have my concerns, but I think it's best now that we scrutinise the Government in the Chamber. But, we should, I think, thank the petitioner and close the petition.

I would be in agreement with that. As you said, we have had a lengthy debate in the Chamber, I would say an entertaining debate in the Chamber, as well, but it's not for the committee to carry this on. So, I would agree with that, and thank the petitioner and close the said petition.

Item 3.3, P-05-1003, 'Demand an EIA now on the dumping of radioactively contaminated mud in Welsh waters'. This was submitted by Cian Ciaran, with 10,692 signatures. I believe this has come to committee—it certainly was in committee in the previous Senedd, and I believe we've discussed it four times in the Petitions Committee and, too, in Plenary, following a debate at the request of the former Petitions Committee last year. So, can I ask Members to discuss this petition and how we see taking this forward? Joel.

Thank you, Chair. Unfortunately—. It's quite a serious and emotive issue, but unfortunately I don't know what more we could do now as a committee. I note from the report that it's been discussed quite a few times in the Senedd Chamber now, and even if we were to keep it open, I'm not sure what more we could do. I'm open to suggestions, but I suspect we've probably come to the end of what we can do and we might just have to close the petition.

Thank you for that, Joel. Luke.

Yes, I think just to add to what Joel said there, I hope members of the public realise it is something that I think all of us are reluctant to do is to close petitions when there are still unresolved matters, but I would agree with Joel on this. We've had this discussion in this committee four times already, it's been debated in the Chamber. I think, again, as a committee, we've held up our end of the bargain, so to speak, and we have championed this cause for quite some time. But, again, I'm racking my brains on this one and where we can take this now and it is, again, with a heavy heart—. We haven't had as much success as potentially the petitioner would have hoped, but I think we should be realistic here and say that we have done our end of the bargain, as it were, and thank the petitioner and close the petition. But, of course, that doesn't mean to say that we as individual Members can't take this up in the Chamber. It's definitely something I'll be looking into after committee.

Well, thank you, both, for that suggestion. I would agree with that suggestion. It has been discussed, as I said, four times plus once debated in Plenary at the request of the previous committee, so I do think, with a heavy heart, this is as far as we can take this particular petition. So, we will close and move on to item 3.4.

P-05-1071, 'Print the vehicle registration on all drive through fast food packaging', submitted by Michael John Powell, with 8,341 signatures. And I'll ask Members to discuss this petition. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I know my colleague, Peredur Griffiths, has done some work on this in his own region. Again, I think we've done as much as we can as the Petitions Committee on this subject. We haven't succeeded on all the specifics, but I would argue that we have had some successes and had some positive actions taken by Welsh Government here, but again, I think it's one of those things where I'm struggling to see where else we can go with this, and again, when we get to that stage, I think it's only right that we as individual Members take it up in our own time now, but thank the petitioner, of course, and close the petition.

Joel.

Thank you, Chair. Just as before, I know the petitioner. If I'm honest, I think this idea is quite innovative and I think it would have been good if we were able to do something to see it come through, but I think I met with McDonald's a couple of weeks ago, a franchisee, and funnily enough, I spoke to them about it and although they weren't necessarily against the idea they did say there would be a lot of constraints in trying to do that; most importantly, I suppose, data protection. But from looking at the report, it does seem that the Welsh Government's been very proactive in trying to tackle this and I agree with Luke, I suppose it's probably best now just to close the petition.

Okay, and I think we should make it for the record that the last engagement we had, the clerking team had shared the most recent Welsh Government update with the petitioner. Again, we haven't succeeded on all of the specifics of the petition, but the Government has made some positive actions, so I think we should congratulate the petitioner on that basis and close.

Item 3.5, P-05-1083, 'Protect leaseholders in Wales from paying for cladding remedial works', submitted by Carl Tubbs with 133 signatures, and I'll ask Members to discuss this petition. Any thoughts from Members? Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Having read the report on this, it doesn't seem like it's a done deal yet. I think we're at a point where to me it seems that the work is going in the right direction here, and I think this is to some extent a success, so I think we should congratulate the petitioner here, and close the petition, but I do think it is incumbent on us to really scrutinise now what happens going forward. Some of the stories we've heard over our own Senedd term, but also in the last Senedd term, are harrowing, and so I think now it's on us as Members to really scrutinise where we go from here.

I would be in agreement with that, and I can see nodding from Joel, too, so you're right, I think it is on individual Members to scrutinise the policy of the Government, but again, we thank the petitioner for bringing this really important petition forward.

Items 3.6 and 3.7 will be grouped for consideration together as previously agreed by the Petitions Committee. So, 3.6, P-05-1073, 'Create and build a new branch of National Museum Wales dedicated to Welsh involvement in colonialism', and 3.7, P-05-1086, 'Create a National Museum for Welsh Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic History and Heritage', and they were submitted by Kieran Sawdon, with 103 signatures, and Yasmin Begum with 490 signatures respectively. Can I ask Members to discuss this? Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think I said in a previous meeting that I knew Kieran, so just for clarity, I'll say that again. If we start with his petition first; I know they're grouped together, but I do think there are some differences between the petitions. With Kieran's particular petition, I can see that the Minister has noted that there is some work now going ahead, so for example, they're reframing the legacy of Thomas Picton, which is a positive step forward. There is also talk of some initiatives to highlight: BAME history, and of course we've had the statue of Betty Campbell that's been erected in the centre of Cardiff. There is a long way to go—I don't think we should kid ourselves—I think there's a long way to go in ensuring that there is adequate addressing of Wales's part in colonialism. I think we're on the right track, but again, I think we need to make sure as Members that we continue to bring this issue up. I do think we should definitely thank Kieran for raising this issue with the Petitions Committee. It is, like I said, you know, not to labour the point, but we do have a long way to go. But I think, again, it's for us now to keep pushing forward on this.

Thank you for that, Luke. Any comments, Joel?

No, no comments.

Okay. In terms of actions for the committee, then, I think one of the things we can do is write to the Heritage and Cultural Exchange as well, asking for an update on their discussions on a permanent home for the archive. There is a long way to go. We are seeing some results, but it's something the committee's—

Can I just clarify?

Yes, sorry.

Were you suggesting closing the first petition?

Yes, sorry, I just wanted to come in on that one. Because if we talked about Yasmin's petition then separately, I do think that we should write to the Heritage and Cultural Exchange, as you've suggested there, Chair. But the Minister has said that the—I'm trying to think of the words here now—collection is in their hands, so I think we should ask what discussions they've had about a permanent home for the archive.

Would you like to consent for that to happen?

Yes, thank you, Chair. I agree with that, and I think it would be a good idea to write to the HCE for an update on discussions on a permanent home for the archive, but also whether or not we could seek clarification if they've ever tried previously to look for a permanent home, and if there were any—not drawbacks, but any—oh, it's gone. But any reasons why it didn't happen—that's what I'm trying to say.

I'm sure we can ask that question within the letter, Joel.

Sorry, Chair. Just to clarify, on Yasmin's petition, I would recommend that we do keep it open until we have a response, but that we close Kieran's petition.

Okay. I can see Joel nodding, and I would agree with that, as long as that is fine for the clerking team. Thank you, all.

Item 3.8, P-05-1130, 'The Welsh Government should re-purchase and refurbish Coleg Harlech', submitted by Sian Ifan with 6,661 signatures. We have discussed this a couple of times in the committee, but what I should say is that I think it's very important to note that the clerking team and I had some wonderful reading over the weekend, where we received a number of passionate letters from people who did use the college and who remember the college, and they do want to see it returned to its former glory. So, they're not for the public record, but I do want to put on our record our thanks for the nice read over the weekend. On that note, I will hand over to members of the committee to discuss this petition. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. So, my understanding is that the building has been sold on now, so I think it's important that, of course, the new owners of the building work with campaigners now to try and ensure that that passion that you saw in those letters is harnessed, really, in what happens to the building going forward. But I do think we should thank the petitioner and close the petition on that note.

Thank you, Luke. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. I suppose the only route that's left for the committee now is to close the petition, but one of the things I'd just like to highlight is that we see a number of these, where people have petitioned to save certain buildings, and it would be good to see if there's anything the Welsh Government could do—and I suppose it's what we can do in our own capacity as Members—to give more strength to local communities in trying to protect their buildings. Because I know I've been involved in a number of campaigns where a building has important community value, but it's not listed, or it's not seen by the powers that be to be of importance, and then it's just destroyed. I feel that we as Members should do more to try and push for that, so that local residents and communities have a stronger say in how their community's developed further, really.

Thank you for that, Joel, and I think there's agreement around the table on that from Members to take up away from the committee. But certainly I thank the petitioner, and thank again those people who did take the time to write and share their memories. As I say, it was a very good read.

Item 3.9, P-05-1133, 'Adapt the teacher training syllabus to include Transformational Coaching and Emotional Intelligence', and this was submitted by Tracey Jones with 193 signatures. I will ask Members to discuss this petition before we move on. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I can see in our reports that the Minister has attempted, at least, to show how he's looking to take the concerns of this petition seriously. I do note as well that we have written to the Minister twice here. Given the Minister's response and, again, struggling to know where we can go with this, I think we have taken it as far as we can, and we should thank the petitioner and close the petition.

Thank you for that, Luke, and I can see nodding in agreement from Joel, and I would agree too. So, we will take that action forward.

Moving on to item 4 of today's agenda, we're going to have a discussion about the petitions threshold now. I'll pass over to our clerking team to talk through the paper they've kindly put together for us.

Yes, it's not the first time we've discussed—. We've been talking about this since the committee was established really, and in the previous committee's legacy report, recommendation 4 was that we should look at this. They took the view that somewhere between 200 and 250 would be what they thought, but at the time they didn't have a great deal of data because the new petitions website had started in the April, and by the time they wound up in the March they didn't quite have a year's worth of data of how that had affected things. There was a suspicion that 2020 was an outlier because of COVID. We had so many petitions on COVID that it could have just been a one-off year, and it could have reverted to normal. What we've seen over the last few months is not that it's reverted to normal. We've already had more petitions in 2021 than in 2017 and 2018 put together. So, it's clear to me, and I think to all of us in the data that we've looked at, that something has changed and more people—. It's much easier and simpler to create and to sign a petition, and that's why we need to look at the threshold and see what we can do.

Thank you for that. I sat on the previous Petitions Committee in the last Senedd, and it was obviously something that we discussed heavily. As Gareth says, the data perhaps wasn't there. I do think now the data is in front of us for us to scrutinise and look at. I think there are a couple of decisions for the committee to take. Firstly, does the committee agree that the change is justified? It's my belief that it is. The second decision that we have to make, if all Members are in agreement, is what change. It would be my suggestion, and I will put the suggestion to members of the committee, that we look to raise it to 250 signatures, and you can see from the paper in front of you that still more than 56 per cent of petitions would come to our Welsh Parliament committee.

And I think, finally, the last decision that we need to take is when should we look to introduce this change, knowing that we would have to get the agreement of Business Committee and the Llywydd in the Senedd. It would be my suggestion to introduce it to and ask Business Committee to consider changing the threshold to 250 signatures for the Petitions Committee, and that we do that possibly at the start of the new year, so 1 January 2022, or as soon as it is practicable to do so, given the technical difficulties perhaps with the website and the process.

But if Members do agree to that, and I will bring Members in to discuss it now, I'd also like to make it clear that as a committee, and the vision for the committee, a petition at 251 signatures will be taken as seriously as one with 250,000 signatures. We will take each petition with open eyes and sound judgment, I think, and give major consideration to all petitions. But it is my belief that the national Parliament of Wales does need a bigger threshold, and that's hopefully what the paper suggests to Members and, hopefully, Business Committee will agree with that. I will bring in Members if they have any thoughts or disagreements. Luke.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. There were two points I wanted to make in relation to this. Firstly, if we do look to increase the threshold, that petitions that are currently ongoing, that that new threshold won't be the threshold for those petitions, because I am conscious that we don't want to be moving the goalposts for those who have already set up their petitions.

The second point I wanted to make as well was that I'm conscious that this could be seen as a reduction, really, in the voice of people in Wales in the Welsh Parliament, but I also think that we do need to find a balance between the amount of petitions that we consider and the amount of petitions, actually, that we can do some deep-dive work into. We have a number of petitions now that we're already considering doing further work on, potentially holding inquiries, for example. If we want to be able to do that deep work, then of course we have to be realistic about how many petitions we consider. I think increasing the threshold will help us in that regard.

Those were the two main paints that I wanted to make on this. I am supportive of increasing the threshold, and I think especially as we hopefully see more powers being devolved to the Senedd, we will have to consider this eventually because there will be more subject areas that people can petition on. But I welcome the report and the data that's been given to us. There's some really good work there. I just want to thank the clerking team for putting that together for us.

Thank you for that, Luke, and I'll extend my thanks to the wonderful clerking team that we have for producing this report. Just to address the two points you made in your contribution then, the goalposts won't be moved. For those who have petitions open already, the threshold will remain the same. I think we should make that clear, as it's fair to do so.

And then secondly, on the voice of the people of Wales, I think—and we've discussed this as a team, as a committee—we want to be able to shape policy and drive change for the better of the people of Wales, and I think this is one area, as you've suggested, which does help that, and I'll go back to the vision, or my vision, certainly, for the committee, whereby we take every petition, whether it has got 251 or 250,000 signatures. We will take every petition with the credit it deserves and we will judge them soundly as individual petitions and not be swayed by signatures. We will only be swayed by the benefits to the people of Wales in the work we do.

Joel, would you like to come in?

Thank you, Chair. I agree with what Luke said, really. I think the key thing is to get that balance where you're not necessarily stifling debate or stifling access to democracy, but I think a 250 threshold would be a suitable number, really. I note from the report that, for example, the Scottish Parliament makes it quite explicit that it only deals with issues of national importance. I don't necessarily think that's a route we might need to go down at the moment, because most of the petitions we've been dealing with, although they might have a local angle, the responses could generate a national response, really, for want of a better word, and I think that might be something to keep a watching eye on going forward, really. I know, in my local authority, we've just started a petitions committee there, but prior to that there wasn't anything—. People were submitting petitions, but there wasn't anything formal in place to discuss them. So, I'm hopeful that—. Yes. Maybe it's something to raise the profile of petitions with the local councils, so that when we have people putting in a petition to say X, Y or Z, we can say, 'Well, maybe this is something you should be bringing up with your local council first, before progressing it to us,' if they haven't done that.

Well, generally speaking, if it's a local authority matter we wouldn't accept a petition. That's why we don't do planning as a general rule. But, yes.

I think we should have a watching brief; those issues are important and we have a duty to be flexible where we can. But can I make the suggestion, then, to the clerking team, that we do write to the Business Committee requesting a change to the Standing Orders of the Senedd Petitions Committee, to request 250 signatures as the new threshold? And, of course, we would have to then get a slot for a debate within the Senedd Chamber where we could make those points on a wider scale, and then, obviously, a vote in Plenary on a change to Standing Orders. But we will do it in a way—. Perhaps we can share the letter before we send it, just to make sure that Members are content with what's in there. Happy? Good.

Moving on to item 5, that does conclude today's public business, so we will now go into private session to consider our forward work plan. So, can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to meet in private for the next item, item 6 on the agenda? Members are content, I see. Yes, thank you. And just to note that the committee will meet on 15 November. Again, thank you to all our clerking team and those behind the scenes. Diolch yn fawr iawn.