Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Welcome back to our one-day inquiry on the Welsh language. May I ask our next witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, please? I will start with Siân Lewis.

Hello, good morning. I'm Siân Lewis, chief executive of Urdd Gobaith Cymru.

Thank you, Siân. And Betsan next, please.

Betsan Moses, chief executive of the National Eisteddfod.

Thank you, Betsan. Tegwen.

Tegwen Morris, national director of Merched y Wawr.

Thank you, Tegwen. And Caryl.

Caryl Haf, council chairman of the Wales Federation of Young Farmers Clubs.

It's lovely to have you with us this morning. We are short on time, so I will move immediately to questions, if that's okay, and we'll turn first to Hefin David.

Thank you, Chair. May I ask you what your key priorities are for the next five years? And also, how does the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru impact your work and provision?

Thank you, Hefin. Witnesses, if you want to come in, just indicate. If you don't want to respond to every question, that's fine. Siân first.

Good morning. Thank you for that question, Hefin. Our priorities as an organisation are to retain our staffing levels across the organisation. We suffered a huge blow because of COVID and we lost a number of staff. We are rebuilding. So, we need to maintain the necessary staffing levels, to respond to the increasing demand from children and young people through the medium of Welsh. We want to develop the infrastructure of our apprenticeships department in terms of our Welsh training provision for young people. We need to build on the work that we're starting to do on a community basis. There has been a lack of language usage among children and young people in Wales because of COVID. It's important that they have those opportunities outside school, on weekends and in school holidays, and the community work is crucial to that. We need to ensure that we complete our capital works in our centres and continue to expand on our cultural opportunities.

More important, or just as important to us, is ensuring that we are an inclusive organisation. I'm very pleased that we are doing that, but I think we need to tell our story better in terms of what we're doing. And in terms of inclusivity, we need to ensure that we are very open and active in deprived areas. We are working very hard in a number of areas, such as Ceredigion, where there is great rural poverty. We're working in Grangetown, Splott and Adamsdown in Cardiff, and in areas of poverty in Meirionnydd, such as Tywyn and Blaenau Ffestiniog. We're continuing with our work in Blaenau Gwent, in Wrexham, upper Denbigh. So, there are all sorts of those activities that perhaps people don't understand or aren't aware of.

Another priority is work with people with disabilities, ensuring that we continue to be on track for the gold award for our work with disabled children—the only third sector body in Wales achieving that at the moment. Our work with vulnerable young people and children, where we do a great deal of work in Llangrannog and in Glan-llyn with vulnerable young people, continues. Our work with refugees in our centres, where we look at how we maintain those links once they leave. And our workforce; we need to ensure that we're inclusive within our workforce. And we have stories of attracting a number of people to our workforce that haven't been involved with the Welsh language having left school, but through working with the Urdd and through the work of working in the Welsh-medium sector, it's increased their confidence in their use of the Welsh language.

In terms of the partnership between Plaid and Labour, well, it's early days for us. Certainly, the very constructive relationship we've had with the Welsh Government throughout the pandemic has been a saviour for the Urdd, and without that support then we wouldn't be where we are today. We have started discussions with members of Plaid. We hope to get their support to continue with the substantial investment that we need for staffing. So, at the moment we're in initial discussions, but there are no clear pledges that have been made in terms of those discussions.

Betsan, if you want to go next. If I could just ask for brief responses, because we are short on time. I know that there is a huge amount to be covered.

In the same way, I think we need to rebuild. COVID has been detrimental to us. We are one of the most entrepreneurial of organisations, because we have a 12 per cent contribution from the public purse. When you look at other arts organisations, it's more than a 50 per cent contribution. I think if you doubled or trebled our grant we would still be more robust.

I think we need to deepen our engagement in communities, because we truly need to return to do that work and provide those opportunities within communities. The National Eisteddfod is the biggest community project in Wales, indeed in Britain, so that engagement is important. And also these opportunities. I'm going to have to note one thing. I heard the earlier evidence, and I do think that we need to shift the focus from one to the other. We need to ensure that there is a greater understanding of what culture means. A narrow definition of culture can be damaging and unfair.

I would argue too that we have, such as the Maes B brand—. If you want to see a real transformation in terms of opportunities—and promoting opportunities for young people is one of our priorities, and promoting those opportunities is in the partnership between Labour and Plaid Cymru. I think Maes B is a great resource for doing that. If there's one way of ensuring that the Welsh language is a viable language, a modern language, that can be recognised and used, then I do think that the use of resources such as Maes B is most important. But I won't expand on that now.

Thank you, Betsan. Does anyone else have anything to add? Caryl.

Just to echo what Siân and Betsan said, really, that we need to bring communities back together. The young farmers are a focus for very many communities across Wales. Of course, we work across the 12 areas of Wales, with membership between 10 and 28 years of age. It's so important to the mental health of young farmers that they can discuss these issues through the medium of Welsh, but also do it face to face. That was lost over the past 18 months. Yes, we can meet virtually as we're doing today, but that is something that we as young farmers, as well as everyone else on this call today, and the Government, can collaborate on in order to ensure that the Welsh language is highlighted as we think of mental health issues of young people within their communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Caryl. Tegwen.

We need to secure the well-being of our communities and aim to reach everyone through collaboration for the benefit of the Welsh language. And certainly we need more investment in technology, and a better understanding of the need for technology in locations such as village halls in rural areas, so that we can stage hybrid events for the future.

Thank you, Tegwen. Hefin.

What Welsh language policy areas should the committee prioritise during the sixth Senedd? Perhaps you can give us the top three.

Who'd like to start?

I think in terms of the work of the committee, it's the scrutiny work and ensuring that people do deliver. It's very easy for organisations to set out aspirations for bilingualism, but, in looking and checking what processes are in place—. For example, what's the development of individuals in terms of career opportunities through the medium of Welsh? I work in a huge sector, the events sector, but where are the opportunities for the Welsh language within that sector? What apprenticeships are available? But also, in terms of individual artists, how can individual artists develop? I think that there is a responsibility for you to check all of that and to scrutinise it. It's very easy to hear warm words, but what are the real opportunities that exist in terms of ensuring that somebody can live bilingually? Likewise, checking your own processes is important. So, if you create evidence through language of choice—do you ask everyone to translate evidence, or is it just evidence provided through the medium of Welsh? So, we need to normalise, but we also need to provide fair play. Often, people are asked for more if they want to use the Welsh language. And also look, if somebody says that they have a bilingual process in place—is that really being implemented and delivered? So, that scrutiny work is important, and also tackling and seeing whether there is equality. Are we truly normalising bilingualism? And I think that's the priority—[Interruption.]

Well, I do my best.

Excellent work, Hefin. Caryl.

Thank you. For me, if we're looking at a top three of priorities, then the three Cs in Welsh come to my mind. And that's collaboration—cydweithio—that's something that we as an organisation do across the 12 counties, where, clearly, we provide support for the Welsh language, but everyone across all counties can discuss how they promote the Welsh language within their particular areas. I live in Ceredigion, which is a Welsh-speaking area, but we have other counties that are more anglicised, of course. And it's good to see that there is collaboration between these counties in order to develop the Welsh language within those areas that are very anglicised in certain areas. But we're proud to see as an organisation that they are now competing through the medium of Welsh with the support of other counties. And the second issue is delivery—cyflawni—in areas across Wales, not just those designated areas; we need to think of the whole of Wales, from north to south, east to west. That is crucially important. And then, the third element is Welsh for everyone—Cymraeg i bawb. You don't have to be fluent in Welsh to be Welsh. And that is something that we must emphasise. I work in an agricultural supply store, and I have a number of customers who are Welsh learners, but people are constantly correcting their language. But they're doing their best, and it's important that we support those people and emphasise that the Welsh language belongs to us all.

Thank you. Siân and Tegwen, I'm sorry, we do have to move on because there are so many issues that we need to discuss. But if there's anything you'd like to provide to us in writing, then we would be grateful for that. If there's a brief comment you'd like to make, Siân.

In supporting what Tegwen has said, I do have concerns about the strategic funding of the arts for children and young people in the long term. It's an issue of great concern over the years, and the work of developing these relationships has been a great effort, but hasn't necessarily worked. We have good practice with Sport Wales, but we need the support of other national organisations to understand the need for Welsh-medium provision, not just for young people, but for people in their communities, so that the language is seen as a living language.

Thank you, Siân, that's powerful evidence. Thank you. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Just to pick up on Siân's point, and this might be relevant to all the organisations represented. Do you get the impression that you are seen as national bodies in the same way as the national library or National Museum Wales are looked upon by the Welsh Government, but aren't perhaps funded to be national organisations in the same way?

That's a huge question, I have to say. The support from Welsh Government is very strong; there's no doubt about that. We wouldn't be where we are today without that intervention from Government in supporting us. Now, 9 per cent of our income comes from Welsh Government. We have a turnover of £12 million. We receive 19 per cent in total from the public purse. So, there's still a great deal of work to be done for people to better understand the Urdd. And I think there's often a stereotype of people thinking about the Urdd as being all about cerdd dant and eisteddfodau. I hope that I've given you an oversight of how we work far more broadly within or communities.

And that is true about how the public national bodies see us. There's been a huge effort to change attitudes, and it is difficult. I have a perfect example of a partnership model with the Urdd and Sport Wales, where they understand the need for Welsh-medium provision; they understand the work that the Urdd can do in our communities, and the reach that we have, and because of that the funding is fair and consistent with other bodies. There's almost £0.5 million of Sport Wales funding coming to the Urdd, and through that we can deliver to 15,000 children on a weekly basis in our clubs across Wales. We run projects for young people. We are active in the volunteering sector, and we can expand that provision because of our clear understanding.

But that isn't the same, we have to be honest, in the arts sector. And I've been in post for four years now, and we've tried to do a great deal to co-operate and discuss and to get people to understand what we're doing, but there is still a misconception or a lack of commitment or a lack of appetite to understand what we do and what we deliver. So, there is a great job of work of scrutiny to be done by the Government and by this committee in looking at how other bodies sometimes play with this concept of bilingualism, to claim that they're doing the necessary work with the Welsh language, but that's not always the case.

Tegwen, you wanted to come in.

The Welsh Government is very fair. It's very difficult for an organisation such as ours because although we don't target children and young people, we obviously support a number of children and young people through our voluntary work in the eisteddfodau and in the numerous community events that we stage. But at the end of the day, we're also very fortunate to have bodies such as the National Lottery that provide funding to support our projects. Perhaps we need more investment in collaborative projects across the sector, so that we can support each other more. I also believe that the Government is ready to listen. So, if we do have a problem and if we do lobby—and we've lobbied a great deal over the past two or three years—then we do get a response, and we appreciate that very much. I think we've received four responses just this week, on the Welsh language, on culture, and on our concerns about the absence of Welsh-medium health services in Wales.

Betsan.

I would certainly say that the support that we receive from Government is incredible—there's no doubt about that. But in terms of funding, I don't think there is parity in terms of how national Welsh-medium bodies are funded in comparison to those other national bodies. So, if you just looked at the national arts bodies, then there is a deficit in terms of our levels of funding and the funding that other bodies receive. And when you look at the commissioning work that we do, and the other work that we do in terms of our reach within communities, never mind the Eisteddfod week itself, I would say that, no, there is no parity. But that's a historic issue, and I think it is something that does need to be looked at. Because, this year, we—. Last year, I should say, we were asked to support another body as they tried to tackle governance issues as they went through the processes of COVID, and we did that. So, we played our role as a national body, but we're not funded as such.

Heledd—

Yes, similarly to Betsan, truth be told, the young farmers movement may be funded in a different way, and, like the other four organisations that are here today, we've all been through very difficult times during the last 18 months. And we, as young farmers, unfortunately have had to make a number of staff redundant over the past 18 months, and we're building back at the moment, but we're funding that ourselves also. So, it's crucially important that—. All four organisations here today have the same kinds of projects within their communities. As Tegwen mentioned, it's important that we four organisations—without mentioning everyone else in our areas—do start to collaborate, and collaborate with Government too, because our projects do sometimes dovetail very neatly together without us realising that. I think there is room for support for something like this for the future that is ahead.

Thank you. Heledd. Oh, you're on mute.

Sorry. Thank you very much. I just wanted to ask, in terms of looking ahead to 2022—and I understand the challenges and so on—but what about your plans for staging events, and what challenges are you likely to face.

Would you like me to go first? In reality, we have said that there will be an Eisteddfod, and there is so much desire for that. We put Maes B tickets on sale—the first tranche—and they sold out within four days. There is the second tranche and they're selling out quickly too. So it's clear that people are desperate to get back to the Eisteddfod field and so on. But the truth of the matter is that we are a business, and looking at how to deliver it, there are additional costs to living with COVID, but also inflation has an impact on us, transport costs also have an impact on us, as does finding crew. And we must bear in mind that the impact of COVID is long term. Because what's happened in the events sector, where there are so many people working on a freelance basis in this area, because there are—. Now, we tried to support artists throughout COVID through the AmGen projects, but from the technical side, the work had simply disappeared, it dried up. And, as a result of that, there are many people who would work on the technical side on a freelance basis in the arts and events sectors who have gone to work for television companies and so on and so forth, and therefore there is a crisis. And there was earlier mention of opportunities, but it would be wonderful if we could create a resource in terms of technical opportunities through the medium of Welsh, so that we could feed these events. As a small nation, we have so many wonderful events, and I think that would be something that would be wonderful if we were able to create such a resource at this time.

Tegwen.

There is such a lack of confidence at the moment, particularly among older people. They've been trustees in our village halls, they've been volunteering in activities, and now they fear getting involved again because of all the legalities, all paperwork they'd have to fill in. So, that's a concern for us. We do some hand-holding, and we walk shoulder to shoulder with them on this journey.

The banks have made our lives exceptionally difficult over the past 12 months: HSBC have started to charge for all community accounts; a number of banks have closed; face-to-face services have disappeared; you're almost forced onto online banking. And we have a number of people across Wales who don't have the technological resources to do that, or don't have the confidence to use that technology for online banking. And, therefore, they can't see which utility companies offer the best rates, for example. There are farmers who fear filling forms online because of their lack of confidence and lack of understanding of the technology. And I think we really need to look at investment in technology, but also to help those people who can't access this, people with additional needs very often, who don't have access to technology. And, during COVID, one of the things that happened was that the libraries closed down, and that's where people could go to use the technology in their communities, if they didn't have it at home.

So, I think we are on a journey, a vulnerable position as we move towards 2022, but we are confident. We are trialling a number of hybrid activities at the moment. And we had the winter fair that's just been staged in Llanelwedd, and the hope is to have the Royal Welsh Show, the Eisteddfod, the Urdd Eisteddfod. Everyone wants to see those events, but events that are held in a safe manner.

Thank you, Tegwen. Caryl, you wanted to come in.

Perhaps some of you will have seen over the past month that the young farmers events in Wales have recommenced. We were the first event at an eisteddfod level. We had our Wales Federation of Young Farmers Clubs eisteddfod held in Pontrhydfendigaid pavilion a little over a month ago, and it was good to see members back competing face to face, as Tegwen mentioned, in the winter fair, of course, last week too. But we are all concerned, as I'm sure you are too on this committee, in terms of what we're facing for the future in 2022.

And, as you mentioned, Betsan, we do have to look forward to the future. We do have to start to actually work within this new normal. It is going to be different, but again, I think that if we all work as a team in order to ensure that everyone gets the right opportunities, and have those opportunities on our platforms—. I don't think there's another nation like Wales providing these opportunities for young people to express their views and to display their talents in Wales. And I think that is something that we must develop with these events as we move forward, not only in January 2022, but I'm sure we will be having the same discussions in December 2022. We've heard about this new variant, and the new restrictions that may be introduced, but it is crucial that we all co-operate in order to ensure that, if there are changes emerging at the last minute, we can still overcome those difficulties, and ensure that our events can come back, either on screen or face to face, for Welsh communities, in order to strengthen those communities.

Thank you, Caryl. Siân. Could we unmute Siân? Thank you.

We're looking forward to 2022 with great positivity. We have a centenary to celebrate, and we have a number of ambitious and exciting projects in the pipeline. In terms of our current service, we have started to rebuild. We had our national netball competition for girls from secondary schools and colleges last week, with 200 schools and colleges taking part. The competition was full up. Yesterday, we announced that the eisteddfod, with support from the Welsh Government, will be free entry in our centennial year, and it'll be held on an eisteddfod field. As I say, there are also a number of exciting projects in the pipeline. We're confident that we're on track to deliver what we need to deliver as long as we receive the support that we've had from the Welsh Government over the past two years—we hope to see that continue. The apprenticeship work is crucial and is going from strength to strength. The work in communities has been redeveloping over 10 months now.

The challenge for the Urdd is the situation with the residential centres—there is nothing. They are an important source of business for us. They create a turnover of almost £6 million and they're an important part of how we generate our internal income. The situation in our residential camps is vulnerable. Clearly the situation in terms of the Cardiff centre specifically is fine at the moment, but the reality is that the schools are pulling out regularly because of COVID and that creates challenges in terms of our business model. We hope that, by next September, we'll be back to full capacity in our residential camps, with 50,000 visitors, but we have to tread carefully there and keep our eye on the finances and also in terms of the COVID situation. It's entirely out of our hands; it's out of the hands of schools. There is a desire to return, but there are also concerns as to how COVID is developing and perhaps how they can return.

So, generally speaking, there are a number of good, happy and positive things to look forward to, but the greatest challenge for us, perhaps, in terms of all of our services for children and young people, is our residential centres.

Thank you, Siân. We'll move to Alun Davies.

Thank you very much. I want to follow on from Siân's points in a way. In terms of Welsh-speaking communities and where Welsh is spoken on a daily basis, do you think the pandemic, in your experience, has had an impact on the use of the Welsh language? Have we seen an increase or a decline in the use of the Welsh language? I don't know. Because, very often, social life within a community does depend on the ability of your organisations to operate and arrange events within those communities, and if you can't do that, well then that's going to have an impact on the broader community. So, I was wondering whether you have seen an impact on the use of the Welsh language because of the pandemic.

Betsan indicated first, and then we'll come to Tegwen. Betsan.

I think certainly it's had a negative impact because those opportunities haven't been available for people to use their Welsh language and practice their Welsh. I think one of the things that we can deliver—all of us as organisations—is those opportunities, particularly when people choose for their children to be educated through the medium of Welsh and the opportunities to practice Welsh and to hear Welsh disappear. When we think of an Eisteddfod, everyone thinks about the festival itself, but the work in the community, over two years in the lead up to an Eisteddfod, is as important, if not more important. So, when you think that there are over 1,750 events taking place in a normal year and those disappeared.

We went online of course, but what you have to bear in mind is, particularly within rural communities, that there is a digital deficit, so taking things online is no mean feat. We managed to stage events, but what happens within communities, and that community cohesion that occurs, which is so important in terms of strengthening communities, was lost during this time. So, it's crucially important that that rebuilding work—the creation of those opportunities anew—restarts as soon as possible.

Tegwen.

Yes, certainly there's been a decline in terms of the social opportunities to use the Welsh language. We usually stage around 3,000 face-to-face events. I can say that those are now down to around 1,000 during the past year, and many of those were staged outdoors—some even in an agricultural market or a shed. So, we have adapted; we've transformed the way that we've been able to meet safely, but as you're aware, there is also concern in terms of the number of homes that have been sold very quickly in Welsh-speaking communities. So, in-migration has put a number of our Welsh-speaking communities under pressure. Many people have contacted to say that people want to change the names of dwellings from Welsh to English, and that's a further concern. But we very much hope that when it will be safe—and we are trying to restart now—to hold our activities, there will be a new momentum.

One thing we have realised is that many Welsh learners want to use the Welsh language, so we are volunteering with learners across Wales, through the Siarad scheme, and I think it's wonderful to see that there is that new desire, and many people who have joined us online, or Curo'r Corona and so on, are Welsh learners from across the globe. So, it's been wonderful to have a new perspective on the Welsh language, perhaps not in our more traditional communities though.

Caryl.

Just to agree with the comments made by Tegwen and Betsan. It has had a negative impact on communities, not just those strongly Welsh-speaking communities, but certainly in those communities where there are large numbers of Welsh learners. As I mentioned in response to Hefin earlier, we have counties where they discuss how they can stage things so that the more Anglicised areas can develop this good practice in the future. We as an organisation saw—. We have over 5,000 members in a normal year. We went down to around half of that during COVID. But we are pleased to note that we are back to our usual numbers for this year. But that just shows you immediately that there has been a negative impact on the Welsh language, because we had fewer members competing, either face-to-face or virtually. When we had those virtual competitions, clearly it was only our members who were competing who were on the call, whereas, when we're face to face, the whole community comes together to see what the young farmers have to offer and, in turn, they learn the Welsh language in doing so. Therefore, I would agree with Betsan and Tegwen—unfortunately, COVID has been very difficult for us, and it's had a negative impact on the Welsh language within our communities. However, I hope, in ensuing years, that we can build back to strength with the organisations here. Thank you.

I agree with the analysis provided by each and every one of you, in many ways. So, what do we do about that? Because it's one thing to make a statement that this is the situation we face. Frankly, it's quite easy to do that—we're just describing what we're seeing. But what are we doing about it? That's my question. I know that Delyth is going to say that time is tight, but could you give us one or two things that the Welsh Government could do now, before Father Christmas arrives, in order to respond to the kind of threat that you've described?

I would say that the Government has responded, and one of the things, in terms of the development post-COVID, is this collaboration—how we really address opportunities and create better partnerships. For example, we are currently doing community work in Rhondda Cynon Taf, and part of that work is to work with partners on the ground in order to ensure that we make the most of the legacy of the Eisteddfod, but work to create that Eisteddfod. The Eisteddfod is a huge beast, but it's a great opportunity too, because people have once-in-a-life opportunities on this journey, so ensuring that all the partners can collaborate in that, so that they too can benefit from those opportunities is important. That's one of the things that's happening, and it was the Government that lead on ensuring that that was to be one of the priorities.

I also think that we need to prioritise that work programme, in terms of our community engagement. We've transformed our strategy and said that that will be one of the main priorities, because we are aware that that is the fundamental difference as regards using the language and having opportunities to do so, and that we also provide those opportunities in different spheres. So, we have priorities. We are working with the National Centre for Learning Welsh as regards learners. We are working with young people on Maes B. So, we're looking at the different age ranges and different communities to truly tackle these issues.

Thank you for that. We'll have to move on in a minute, so if I could ask the three of you for just a sentence, if possible.

Investment in community buildings and ensuring that technology is available within those community buildings. We've lost some schools, we've lost a number of chapels, churches, pubs. We've lost those community buildings. We need investment in what's remaining to ensure that they are still there for the future.

Diolch, Tegwen. Siân.

Yes, 62 per cent of schools in Wales work with the Urdd; we want to see 100 per cent involved with the Urdd. And that influence can come through the Welsh Government, through the Government education department, to request that every school makes that effort to look at how they can become involved with our services. Because, sometimes, access into schools that don't necessarily have teachers who want to commit to the Urdd can be difficult. The education department, in our centenary year, could make a call that every school should become involved with the Urdd's services, and that will link in to community activities, our activities within our residential centres. So, I think that's an easy ask, Alun. I'm sure you and many of the politicians here today could influence Mr Miles in order for that to happen.

Thank you. Caryl, just a sentence, if you could.

Yes, no problem. That was a major question, Alun, but, for us as an organisation, I think we need investment, communication, collaboration and education in order to ensure that we all learn from each other as we move forward. Thank you.

Thank you very much. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Thank you, Delyth. Only the one question from me. I'm just curious to what extent you've worked with the Welsh Government to outline their international strategy, or worked within their international frameworks or networks. So, I'd be just as interested if you have or if you haven't, really—if you or your organisation have done that.

Okay.

Siân, you wanted to go first.

Yes. Some two years ago, we developed an international strategy for the Urdd. The Urdd was internationally active at the beginning, some 100 years ago, and we're very eager, as we move to our centenary, that we move in that direction once again. There is financial support available from the Welsh Government to support us in our message of peace and goodwill, which is in its hundredth year next year.

We also have a number of international projects between colleges across the world and our young people. We want to take our young people to be excellent ambassadors for the Welsh language for Wales. Work has been ongoing with the University of Alabama, with a university in Norway, with trips to Patagonia, with the collaboration with TG Lurgan in Ireland, to name but a few. But the vision as regards our desire to take our older members across the world in order to promote our culture is happening, and the Welsh Government support for that vision is something we're very grateful for.

Thank you, Siân. Betsan.

We fed into the strategy. We're not funded through the international relations department, but we do have international projects. So, we work with other festivals and we partner artists and create content. That happened, and it continued to happen, throughout COVID, and so we do have an international strategy. It's one of our priorities in terms of our five-year strategy.

We also work very closely with Wales Arts International, which is part of the Arts Council of Wales. But, in moving forward, I think we need to look at the priorities of the international strategy and what are the opportunities for all as regards delivering that. But, in terms of the AmGen work, what AmGen proved this year was that that resource was crucially important in terms of presenting Wales to the world. And we need to transform how we do that, because whereas it used to be a case of Wales going out, we are now celebrating within Wales, and looking at the internationalisation of Wales. And that is a project that we are working on at the moment, in relation to the different stories and cultures within Wales, so that we can celebrate them as part of the Eisteddfod.

Rhyngwladoldeb—that's not an easy word to pronounce. Thank you, Betsan. Caryl or Tegwen, did you have anything to add?

We've had overseas trips in the past, projects funded by European funding, and we've also had projects where we communicate with other nations, but not as part of this strategy. However, we hope to expand our horizons for the future.

Caryl.

We as an organisation aren't supported through this strategy at the moment. It is something that we hope to look at during the next year, because we as an organisation, of course, do provide an international programme for our members. We go to over 35 different nations across the world, and that provision is available for our members, where they act as ambassadors for the organisation, be that for a week, three months or even for a year. So, I think there are opportunities for collaboration on this strategy in order to get the information about Wales across the world. Thank you.

Thank you. Tom, is that okay? Was there anything else you wanted to ask?

No, that's very helpful. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll move finally to Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you. Is there anything else you'd like to raise regarding funding that you haven't mentioned already—just financial resilience going forward? The others previously stated they expect to lose around £40 million over the next two years, and the income is not anticipated to recover until 2024-25. So, in some of the evidence about—. Is there anything else we've not captured already?

Siân.

No, generally speaking, information about our financial position and the grants that we received is in the information that we provided. We have made an application to the Welsh Government to maintain the support provided last year, which ensured that we could rebuild our workforce. We do hope that we will receive that support for this year that will ensure that our workforce is stable for the coming years. We've also been very fortunate to see support from Gwynedd Council, and Glan Llyn, bringing £0.5 million to rebuild the workforce in the outdoor pursuits sector in Glan Llyn, which is crucially important because there is a shortage of Welsh speakers in that area. But, generally speaking, we've been very fortunate with the support that we've received. The Welsh Government has contributed significantly to ensuring that the Urdd survives. But, long term, we want to return to the successful business model we had pre COVID, where £9 million of our income came from internal sources—we generated our own income. At the moment, we're not in a position to do that, but in the longer term that's the vision.

I would second that in terms of the just how uncertain the short term is, because, as we live through COVID, there are implications and uncertainties on income and how audiences will respond. We are reviewing our marketing strategy in order to look at younger people, because all the research suggests that older people are less willing to attend major events. We are also highly aware of the impact of the Eisteddfod particularly in smashing those clichés around what language and culture mean and providing opportunities for people to experience a living, modern language.

We worked with the Government in Llanrwst to have free entry for one day for people from deprived backgrounds and people who hadn't experienced the Eisteddfod, and the anecdotal response from those experiences included people saying, 'Well, I had some ill-feeling towards the Welsh language because I didn't have any relationship with it.' So, not having attended the Eisteddfod, they had these clichéd ideas of poetry and clog dancing an things that are more traditional. But, in having attended and experienced that thrill of being with 15,000 people listening to an orchestra or to pop music, and everything else, they were asking, 'Why have I always felt that this wasn't for me?' So, if I could steal one of the young farmers' straplines from a few years ago, 'You don't have to be one to be done', in the same way, you don't have to speak Welsh to come to the Eisteddfod and to be part of that experience.

And, for me, what's important as we move forward is to ensure—. We are the main cultural festival in Europe, and we're also a major festival on a global level, and that's because you have those wonderful experiences and wonderful opportunities, and also the Eisteddfod field is a festival field where 1,000 activities and events are held during the Eisteddfod week. For me, it's that experience that means that we can, along with global festivals, say that we have a festival of significance here in Wales. But because of the income uncertainties, we have to look at our priorities, and the concern is that that experience won't be the same.

Also, if we're looking to the long term, I would say that any cultured country should ensure that people can experience their culture. That's the evidence of a civilised nation. So, I would say that a sustainable Eisteddfod should be one of the priorities of the cultural work undertaken. Because, for me, you have to provide people with opportunities to experience their own culture, and, of course, the ticket price can be a barrier to that. I would think that that is a priority in order to reach the million Welsh speakers, but also, to use the language, and that there are opportunities for people to see that they can be on a linguistic journey, that one word means that you have started that journey. And for me, that that experience is inclusive, and that is what the Eisteddfod is; you can come to the Eisteddfod and you don't need to speak a word of Welsh, but you will be embraced and you will experience culture and you will hear the Welsh language and hopefully, you will be enchanted by it.

Thank you, Betsan. Now, technically, we're not just out of time, we're over time. If I could ask for any brief comments from Caryl and Tegwen to conclude. Shall we go to Tegwen first?

I think we need confidence, because it's such a period of uncertainty, and that investment can provide people with the experience and the confidence to continue to work within communities across Wales, whatever their background. So, confidence and investment.

Thank you, Tegwen. Caryl to conclude.

Yes, similar to Tegwen, it's investment and support for the young farmers' movement. We are the only organisation across Wales, if not across the world, that offers this whole range of opportunities for our young people between the ages of 10 and 28. I don't think there is another organisation that can provide the public speaking, the judging stock, the rally, the entertainment, the sport—all of the things that the young farmers' movement provides—and a community focus in rural communities in Wales, and these are the communities that we need to support during these next few years. These are the critical years in ensuring that there is a future for the Welsh language in Wales in those communities. As Tegwen mentioned earlier, we hear about all of these homes that are being sold to people from outside the area; we, as young farmers, need support to play our very important role in providing support and in ensuring that the Welsh language is retained within those communities, but, most importantly, that our young people can remain within our communities and can access jobs there for the future too. Thank you very much.

Thank you all very much for your evidence this morning—it is still morning. A transcript will be sent to you so that you can check that, and if there's anything you want to add as evidence in writing, then we'd be very grateful for that. I'm sure that we'll be speaking to you all again, but thank you very much for your evidence this morning.

Members, we will now take a very short break, we will return at twenty past. If Members could return by 18 minutes past, please, so you have five minutes. Thank you, we'll go into a break.

Good morning, and welcome back to our one-day inquiry on the Welsh language. May I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the Record? We'll start with Ruth.

Hello, thank you for the opportunity to join you. I'm Ruth Richards, chief executive, Dyfodol i'r Iaith.

Thank you, Ruth. Efa.

I'm Efa Gruffudd Jones, chief executive, National Centre for Learning Welsh.

Thank you, Efa. And Meirion.

I'm Meirion Davies, chief executive of Menter Iaith Conwy, but representing the mentrau iaith network this morning.

Thank you, Meirion. If you could indicate when you want to answer a question, we'll know who to come to.

And Mabli has just joined us. Mabli, could you introduce yourself for the Record?

Yes, I'm Mabli Siriol Jones, chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

Thank you. Someone's got something on in the background, I think. I could hear—.

Great, we'll move first to Hefin David.

Thank you, Chair. What are your key priorities for the next five years, and how do you think the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru will impact your work and provision?

Who'd like to start?

Mabli, I was saying earlier, if you could indicate when you want to come in. We'll start with Efa.

Great. Well, thank you very much for that question and for covering the Welsh language in your committee this morning. In terms of the National Centre for Learning Welsh, the recent period has been challenging, interesting and exciting for us. You will see that the numbers learning Welsh have increased in recent times. So, in terms of our priorities, I think there are two or three clear priorities.

First of all, to develop our digital resources in order to facilitate Welsh learning digitally for the future. That can lead to people learning more quickly, if they study as individuals and attend virtual classrooms. Secondly, we would want to prioritise attracting more learners to learn Welsh in a number of specific areas, including parents, those between 16 and 25, and we certainly want to see the development of learning Welsh for people in workplaces through those workplaces.

In terms of the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party, we welcome the statement contained within that that there will hopefully be more investment for the National Centre for Learning Welsh, and we would hope that that investment could be channelled towards the priorities that I've already addressed, but particularly considering the provision for that 16 to 18 age group, and the 18 to 25 age group, and the teaching of Welsh in workplaces.

I hope that's a succinct answer, but there's plenty to be done and plenty of signs that we can build on recent times successfully.

Thank you, Efa. Anyone else? Ruth, and then I'll come to Meirion.

We have produced a manifesto for the sixth Senedd, which is 'Aspiration and Achievement'. We will share that with members of the committee. Very broadly speaking, our priorities would be: education, and as a result of that Welsh for adults; leading on from education, we need to bring more Welsh into the workforce and the workplace; we're looking at a prosperous economy, particularly for the Welsh-speaking heartlands, which have been so badly impacted by COVID; we need to ensure a Welsh linguistic landscape, so that is detailed and meaningful language planning; we need to look at land use and homes, which is such a contentious issue at the moment; and to ensure a media and culture that supports the Welsh language. These are all very broad ranging and diverse objectives. And to facilitate that, we are also asking for a language authority at arm's length from Government that can co-ordinate everything, bring all of the expertise and all the voices together. So that, broadly speaking, is our hope for this next Senedd term, and beyond.

Thank you, Ruth. Meirion.

Good morning. In terms of the mentrau iaith network, then, first of all, if I could refer to the new co-operation agreement, we're very pleased that there has been some movement on housing. This is something that we are seeing before our very eyes, particularly in the more westerly areas, where Welsh-speaking communities are changing overnight. So we're working within those communities. I work with a group in Penmachno in the county of Conwy, and we know that 36 per cent of the homes in that village are now holiday homes or are empty homes. So, we need to move on that very quickly in order to ensure the sustainability of Welsh-speaking communities. So, we were very pleased to see that within the co-operation agreement, but there is a problem in terms of demographics. People are moving into these areas because of opportunities to work from home, and that's an issue too. But it is an opportunity for us too, in terms of the possibility of attracting Welsh speakers back to our communities, and we must bear that in mind too, and work on it.

In terms of the mentrau's priorities, we want to get to grips with the report, 'The Effects of COVID-19 on Welsh Language Community Groups', so we need to work more with communities. And in order to ensure this, it would be good to secure our current funding levels, because you can't really ask us to do more intensive work without the necessary resource. So, if we could maintain our funding levels and perhaps increase our core funding, as we haven't seen an uplift in core funding for around eight years now.

We've also presented a paper to Government, following up on one of those recommendations, in order to work more to establish Welsh-medium social enterprises, providing foundational services that would be a help in addressing some of the points raised earlier, in terms of providing Welsh-medium services, such as nurseries, support for the elderly, and so on and so forth. So, we have an interest in working beyond our language brief, and working with other departments within Government, such as the economy department, in order to deliver that.

But it's been a challenging time, and I'm pleased to say that the mentrau have been able to respond. We more or less moved everything that we did within communities online. So, during the lockdown, there were over 200,000 engagements online with the mentrau network, so we're very pleased to have been able to move to that, and we're now moving back to a kind of hybrid arrangement, in terms of making provision online and also providing more face-to-face work within our communities. So, re-establishing that is a priority—getting people back out there, making things happen within their communities, and generating language use within those communities.

Thank you, Meirion. Anything to add, Mabli?

We published our vision for the new Government, which is, 'More than a Million, Welsh Language Citizenship for All', and that followed discussions that we'd had with organisations, individuals and communities across the country. The idea underpinning that is that there is a consensus on that target of a million Welsh speakers, but it's clear that the Government hasn't done what's needed in order to reach that target by 2050. People also want to go further, so, 'Mwy na Miliwn', 'More than a Million', talks about enhancing that agenda and focusing on language use in daily life, in our communities, in our workplaces, and also ensuring that everyone can access Welsh learning, and that they can enjoy the Welsh language.

So, some of the specific demands within the document are: to look at passing a Welsh language education Act for all, and we've been pleased to see the Government commit to such legislation. We're also calling to ensure that 80 per cent of newly qualified teachers can teach through the medium of Welsh, for increasing Government expenditure on projects to promote the Welsh language, for a digital enterprise. We also want to see free Welsh language lessons for everyone and to enable more people to be able to access the language. And also something that has become far more apparent during the pandemic is this need for measures to address problems in the housing market, and we are calling for a broad-ranging package of measures, including a full property Act.

And just on that second point on the agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru, I was very pleased to see the commitments within that agreement because it reflects many of our main demands—pleased to see the commitment to ensuring a Welsh-language learning continuum, a cap on the number of second homes in communities, support for the devolution of broadcasting powers to Wales. So, we look forward to seeing the implementation of that agreement and all the commitments made by Government within it.

Thank you, Mabli. Hefin.

Thank you. So, what policy areas in relation to the Welsh language should this committee prioritise during the sixth Senedd? Perhaps you could give us a top three in terms of your priorities.

Thank you, Hefin. If I could ask for responses that are as brief as possible, because we are short on time. I know this is a broad topic. Efa, if you want to come in first.

Well, if you're looking for a top three, then, from my perspective, it would be something around training workforces. You heard earlier about training the education workforce in FE and HE and in health and care. So, there's something around—. Of course, we have our Work Welsh scheme. That could certainly be expanded, but we need the collaboration of employers in doing that too. So, Welsh in the workplace, I think, is one theme.

Another thing that is important to our centre is community use of the Welsh language, because we teach learners to use the Welsh language—so, whether they are learning in the workplace and can use Welsh in the workplace; we also have a substantial programme of community learning of Welsh. So, ensuring the viability of cultural organisations at a national level is important to us so that our learners can enjoy using their Welsh language skills. So, there's something around that.

The third thing, perhaps—and Mabli has touched on this—is this idea of ​​a linguistic continuum. In the view of the National Centre for Learning Welsh, we need better links between second-language learning in schools and teaching the language to adults. At the moment, the pathways aren't entirely clear and I think that this will be a priority for us over the next period. Those learning Welsh through the education system do need to be supported and encouarged and developed. We all continue to learn all the time, don't we, but, at the moment, that provision from cradle to the grave—the pathways are not entirely clear. So, those would be my three priorities, and the priorities of the centre, I would hope.

Thank you, Efa. If I could be even more strict with you, if you could just list your three. Sorry, I know that this is very difficult, but we are so very short on time, so if you could just list your three priorities.

Bullet points.

Yes. [Laughter.] Who'd like to go first? Meirion and then Mabli.

Yes. I'd like to emphasise community use of the Welsh language. Without that use, the 2050 strategy isn't going to hold water. People do have to use the Welsh language and there has to be the ability within communities to do that.

I agree with Efa that we need better dovetailing between the workplace, the workforce and the Welsh language. Again, that is crucial in terms of creating the continuum for those who access Welsh-medium education—they need to be able to use the language as a skill, or they're at risk of losing it.

And third for us, I do have to emphasise that we need intervention in planning and in housing, particularly in the north-west and west where Welsh is still a community language. There is an over-reliance on tourism and that is having a very detrimental impact on communities—not just Welsh-speaking communities, but communities in general. We do need to look at that as a matter of urgency.

Thank you, Meirion. Mabli.

I would say the Welsh-medium education Act that the Government is to bring forward; the link, as everyone has said, between planning, housing and the Welsh language on a community level; and I would also say scrutinising Government progress on its own targets in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Thank you, Mabli. Those really were bullet points. I'm very grateful for that. [Laughter.] Ruth.

I agree entirely. We need to work on bringing the Welsh language into the workforce, that and Welsh lessons, but also we need to tackle the shortage of teachers who have the skills and confidence to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, that's one. Secondly, to support Welsh-speaking communities following COVID and Brexit. And third, networking the Welsh language. We've already heard this morning how different organisations during these challenging times need to make the most of collaboration and to have a strategy and framework in place to allow that to happen. So, those are the three points. One other thing, if I may—and I do apologise—we in Dyfodol yr Iaith do welcome the recent co-operation agreement and look forward to seeing how it develops in future.

Thank you for that, Ruth, and before we move to Heledd Fychan, a number of issues that you've raised are issues that we could work with other committees on, either the education committee or the communities and housing committee, but those are certainly things that we would want to collaborate on ourselves, I'm sure, and we will consider that. We'll now move to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Chair, and a very good morning to you all. You've already mentioned COVID; it's a word we have heard mentioned many times this morning. Is there anything you want to add in terms of the challenges or opportunities as a result of COVID in terms of your work, your workforce or volunteers? And as time is short, I will ask my second question too: what's the outlook for the workforce and volunteers within your organisations heading into 2022?

Who'd like to start? Efa.

Well, if nobody else is putting themselves forward, I will. Thank you for that question, Heledd. As I mentioned earlier, in a way, our story around COVID is positive, to a certain extent. Certainly, in the first lockdown, people were looking for something to do. Lack of time is a barrier for people wanting to learn Welsh, that's clear, and the way we were able to adapt our service to provide online learning, which has now been established within our sector and it will be a method that we continue for the future, meant that COVID has accelerated a move towards new methods of learning, and from now on there will be more options available to learners in the future in terms of self-learning and combining that with work done in virtual classes, online, or in classrooms. So, it's enhanced the options available and the possibilities available, so that's a positive that will be taken on into the longer term.

Of course, we do feel that something is lost when people engage online only. We are eager for people to use the Welsh language in viable communities, and that's why I mentioned that ensuring that communities and organisations do rebuild is going to be important for us in the future.

In terms of the impact on the sector itself, we've seen an increase in the numbers learning, we've seen a transformation and some innovation in the sector in terms of our learning methods, which will be positive for the future.

In terms of the second question on the workforce and volunteers for the future, we do have our Siarad programme, which asks people to volunteer to spend 10 hours speaking and conversing with learners, so we're always looking to develop that, and that can be done virtually. We have more learners than Welsh speakers, so anyone is welcome to register for that scheme. It's a very good scheme indeed.

But, in terms of the workforce itself, we are confident that we have a strong workforce that is well trained, but we have new plans—for example, in the next year, we will be providing a fortnight-long course for students over the age of 18 so that they can start that journey of becoming a Welsh language tutor by providing them with that training over a fortnight next summer, hopefully attracting people who will have gone to universities over the border too, so that we can start to plan our workforce for the future, because—. We're very eager to see more full-time workers in the sector, but it's something that you can combine with a career elsewhere too. So, we're always looking for more people who want to become tutors, but we have no major concerns on that for the future.

Who would like to go next? Anyone? Meirion.

Yes, in terms of COVID, as I mentioned earlier, we've learned a great deal in terms of what we can do online. The Welsh language needed to be more visible online, and that's certainly happened. And, as I said, we will retain some of these things, because it does get to a new audience. But, in terms of the community level and working with committees on the ground, perhaps we've had to take a step back because people weren't confident enough to get out there. So, we're in the process of rebuilding these committees. Some are responding better than others, depending on age ranges and so on. So, we hope, in terms of the network—. We put in a successful strategic bid with the WCVA. We hope to increase the number of volunteers that we have this year so that we provide opportunities to work through the medium of Welsh but also to support the Welsh language, so those are the two main aims—that people will be able to do that in their communities.

In terms of our workforce, our core workforce, we were able to retain the core workforce through COVID because it's grant funded, but much of the broader workforce employed through social enterprises that we've established have had to close down temporarily. For example, we established a community translation company, and they had to close down. The nursery that we had established also had to place some staff on furlough for a time. But these businesses are back up and running, and I do hope that it's an opportunity for us to look at creating more such businesses for the future too. So, the workforce is building back.

Thank you, Meirion. Ruth or Mabli, anything to add?

Yes. Clearly, we are a voluntary campaigning organisation, so we don't provide services or activities as such. So, much of what we were looking at in terms of the impact of COVID was the policy areas that were affected. For example, everyone is aware of the impact on the housing market, for example, or the impact on Welsh-medium education and children's access to Welsh-medium activities. And I think you've had plenty of evidence this morning from those voluntary organisations who've been here today in terms of the impact that it's had on them. And, clearly, the Welsh language is a language that is reliant on community and voluntary efforts to support it on the ground. So, it is a concern, and we do hope to see adequate support for the sector so that they can rebuild those activities.

But I would say, in looking to the future, for us, we have continued to campaign during the pandemic, indeed throughout the pandemic. I am concerned about the impact on civic engagement during the pandemic and as we look to the future. We have seen things such as local authorities trying to push things through without the same scrutiny processes and the democratic engagement that we would hope to see. And also just the impact on individuals—everyone has been hit by COVID and the lockdowns, and we do see perhaps less engagement in the civic and democratic processes and people's ability to volunteer and to contribute to efforts such as those. And I think everyone's aware that we need far more of those things, rather than less. So, that is something to look out for for the future, I would say.

Thank you, Mabli. Ruth, anything to add?

Our situation as a lobbying organisation is very similar to Cymdeithas yr Iaith in terms of volunteers. Two things struck us. One obvious one is the housing crisis as a result of COVID. That has intensified and become far more apparent. We are all aware that we need to tackle that issue as a matter of urgency and that we need radical solutions. And that will be a long-term challenge.

Another issue, and you've heard mention of this already, is the impact that COVID had on Welsh language networks. The commissioner's report has painted quite a sorry picture. I think what's important is that one keeps in mind that we don't need just to simply restore what existed in the past, but that we continue to aim for growth in community usage of the Welsh language. I think that's crucially important. And perhaps it is timely too to look again at Welsh language centres as organisations at the heart of their community, which are appropriate to the needs of that community, and that is just as true in the Welsh-speaking heartlands as it is in those areas where there are Welsh speakers who perhaps don't have as many opportunities to use the Welsh language.

Thank you, Ruth. We'll move on to Alun Davies.

Thank you very much. Every one of you, in a number of ways, has talked about the impact that the pandemic has had on the Welsh language and on Welsh-speaking communities, and I'd like to ask you whether you think that the programme for government responds to those concerns in any way. We've set this target of a million Welsh speakers, and the Government has published its work programme for this Senedd. Do you believe that that work programme responds to the challenge?

Don't all rush.

Yes. [Laughter.] Mabli.

If I could address that, perhaps. Yes, as everyone's mentioned, the most apparent impact of the pandemic and the Government's response was the impact that it had on the housing market, and I think it's important that we don't forget that decisions taken by the UK and Welsh Governments to reduce taxation on the sale of homes has pushed the prices of homes up, so it's had a negative impact in that sense, and we've seen rental costs going through the roof everywhere and young people not being able to afford to stay in their communities. It's been a great campaigning priority for us, as I'm sure you will have seen, with thousands coming to our rallies on this particular issue.

But I would also say that we warmly welcome the commitments that we've seen recently from the Government, some of the steps included in the agreement with Plaid Cymru, such as placing a cap on the number of second homes in any community, introducing a tourism tax, looking at the possibility of managing rents, and also there's a Government consultation that's just been opened that's looking at enabling a requirement for planning consent to change a home into a holiday let or a second home, and regulating the holiday accommodation sector.

So, we're very pleased to see those steps being taken, and I do think it's important to note on this issue specifically that things have changed a great deal in terms of where we were in that policy sphere a few years ago, and we're pleased to see that the pressure applied by all who feel strongly about these issues has made a difference.

Thank you, Mabli. Anyone else? Efa, and than I'll come to Ruth. Efa.

Alun, if you're asking about the programme for government or the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy, I can speak particularly to issues related to the centre in terms of those programmes. I think the things in the programme for government, particularly the amended programme for government, and in 'Cymraeg 2050' do reinforce many of the things that I've talked about already this morning, namely that 16 to 25 age cohort, increasing the use of the Welsh language in workplaces, although one could argue that it's quite ambiguous in the programme for government. It just says 'increase'—you need a little more meat on the bone on many of those points within the programme for government. It talks about expanding the role of the centre and increasing its funding, but it's not quite clear where that's going, although the quick review in the summer did give some suggestions with regard to that and our work with the education sector, for example. The programme for government does talk about expanding the education workforce able to teach and work through the medium of Welsh, and it talks about establishing one continuum, for example. So, many of the themes are in these documents. I think the question is how they will be implemented and developed, and how much funding—. Funding's an integral part of this. There is a link between how much can be delivered and how much funding is provided, and how much priority is given to those issues will depend on the funding provided.

So, to reply to your question as to whether the things in the programme for government are appropriate, well, from the perspective of my organisation, yes, but there is further discussion to be had as to what the scope is and how far we can take those issues in the upcoming period. So, we look forward to having further discussions with the Government on that. I think the themes are right; we now need to ensure that they are properly developed, that targets are put in place, and that the work is done in a co-ordinated manner. So, that's my response from a national centre perspective to those questions.

Thanks, Efa. Ruth, did you want to come in? Could we unmute Ruth, please? Thank you.

In the past, we have been quite critical of the Government's programme for government, on the basis, as Efa has said, of a lack of detail and a lack of designated funding for every stage of the journey. I think there is now more momentum. I think the co-operation agreement has been a boost, and one area where we can see that is the willingness for different departments to work together to address very complex problems such as the housing crisis.

One thing we welcome about the agreement is that it appears that the Welsh language is at its heart. It runs through a number of elements of the agreement, but I think the important thing to bear in mind is that 'Cymraeg 2050' is a long-term programme. The work will be ongoing beyond the three years of this co-operation agreement, and beyond the term of this Senedd. So, if there is some way of ensuring that continuity, then certainly that would be something that is required in terms of long-term planning and long-term funding, too.

Meirion, anything to add? If you could just wait a moment. Yes.

Yes, if I could just briefly mention, we do have the 2050 programme, the agreement and the recommendations in the COVID report, so I think between those three things, if everything is implemented, then we can make significant progress. There are a few things that I think need a little fleshing out, particularly in relation to the Welsh language and the economy. There isn't much contained on that within the programme for government. I would like some clarity on that, and to understand the role of the mentrau within that, and our ability to increase the number of workplaces on the ground and to strengthen the circular economy through the medium of Welsh in our areas. As you know, for every £2 the Government provides to the mentrau iaith, you get £6 back, and as Efa said, funding is at the heart of this. If we are to increase our workload, then the funding has to increase, too. That isn't clear at the moment, as to whether it will happen.

I'm also pleased to see that there is emphasis on Welsh-speaking areas. I do think that these areas are crucial and we do need to see the relationship between these areas and the less Welsh-speaking areas as a symbiotic relationship, where both support each other, as happens perhaps more in the Basque Country, where there is a better understanding of where the two areas can come together and work together. But I think we are starting to get some sort of understanding there, but we certainly need more emphasis on that. What's difficult with areas where the Welsh language is still a community language is you're not just supporting the language; you have to support the community to support the language, and that takes significant investment.

Thank you, Meirion. Mabli, I think you wanted to come back.

Yes, just to echo some of the points made by others in terms of the language strategy and the targets, and fleshing those out. We don't want the 2050 strategy to go the same way as every other language strategy that we've had, which has really been failure. And I think that looking at the education targets is important in terms of an example of where this has happened. The Government missed its target in terms of children in Welsh-medium education at seven years of age—it was 25 per cent by 2015. They missed that, so they reduced the next target to 24 per cent by 2021, but they failed to reach that target, too. If we don't address those problems in the education system, and if we don't have education legislation that will really make a difference, investment in the workforce and statutory targets, then we won't make the progress that the Government needs to make now if we are going to reach that target by 2050.

Okay. Alun, anything else?

I don't think we have time to pursue this this morning, but, Chair, I would like to return to this issue and to the Welsh language strategy, because of the points made by Mabli; they're important points. And Ruth has made similar suggestions too, that there is no point in setting targets if there is no way of achieving those targets, and I want to see targets for this Senedd set by Government, and I want to understand how the Government is going to deliver against those targets. So, I'd like to return to that, if we could.

Yes, I'd agree entirely, because Ruth said, didn't she, that the 2050 target is beyond this Senedd term, so it's difficult to see how we can test it. I agree. I'm sure that we as a committee can discuss that, but I would agree with you, Alun. We're into our last 13 minutes, and two Members have questions to ask. So, I will ask for succinct answers, if I may, and I will turn now to Tom Giffard.

Thanks, Chair. I'm just curious if you could outline any engagement you've had with Welsh Government with regard to their international strategy. So, I'd be just as interested if you haven't, as well as if you have, and the nature of that involvement would be useful as well. Thank you.

Efa.

It's an interesting question. If you're asking about our relations with the international relations department, we don't have any formal relations. However, we do have some international connections of our own, and you might be interested to hear that we have people across the world joining in our virtual lessons now. We also have an excellent relationship with a choir in America that hold their own Welsh language lessons. We also have a relationship with a language movement in Brittany, and we share digital resources with them. So, we are developing some connections of our own, and we're trying to learn from international experience and are aware of international research. So, it's part of our engagement as an organisation, but in terms of a formal relationship, no, we don't have that relationship. We would certainly welcome that. There is nothing to stop people across the world joining our lessons now, but our priority, of course, is and will always be to teach people in Wales to learn and use Welsh.

Thank you, Efa. Ruth.

There's been no engagement, no, but I do think that there is scope to integrate the Welsh language into the international strategy. At the moment, of course, it simply appears in the context of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. But, I do certainly think that we need to highlight the Welsh diaspora and Welsh speakers living outwith Wales, and the contribution that they have to make to the culture, to the economy, and so on. There is talk about adventure tourism. What about language tourism, where one could come to Wales to learn Welsh and experience the Welsh language? There is so much work to be done too in terms of our expertise in restoring and learning the Welsh language, and the creative industries. This week, of course, there's been so much discussion on the film The Feast, and we should have the confidence to promote our language on a creative level, and to do so on a global stage.

Thank you, Ruth. Meirion or Mabli, did one of you—? Mabli, then Meirion.

We haven't engaged with the Government formally on this, but just to say that we do work very closely with our sister organisations in other nations that are campaigning on minority language issues, and much of the policy that we develop does emerge from that joint working, so it is hugely important in terms of the lessons that we can learn from elsewhere, and also the example that Wales can provide to other parts of the world.

Something similar. We haven't engaged formally, but as a network we are members of NPLD, which is a network of language organisations across Europe, so we have a number of connections there. There has been a lot of engagement with the Basque Country, Catalunya. We have done some work with Patagonia over the years. But yes, certainly, I think there are great possibilities in terms of the diaspora, even attracting people back to Wales. So, yes, it's certainly worth looking into.

Thank you, Meirion. Tom, was there anything else you wanted to ask?

No. That was very useful. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Tom. Finally, we'll turn to Carolyn Thomas.

Just a question about funding. Would you like to raise anything that's not already been mentioned regarding funding for resilience going forward?

If anyone would like to—. I know that this has been covered already, but if anyone has anything to add now, you're welcome to do so. Mabli.

One of our demands from Government now is to increase investment in Government spending on the Welsh language to 1 per cent of the Government's budget and to focus that on projects to promote the Welsh language. That would be a substantial increase on the current percentage and would enable us to look again at things such as creating more Welsh-medium digital content, projects to support learners, promoting leisure activities at grass-roots level. A couple of other priorities would be that we need significant investment over this Senedd term in training for the education and childcare workforce. There are all sorts of other proposals in our document 'More than a Million', but those are two things that need to be looked at urgently.

Thank you, Mabli. Meirion.

Just three things very briefly. We would be very grateful if we could retain the Helo Blod contract, Welsh in Business, within the mentrau iaith network, so that we can generate more scope to pursue some of the COVID recommendations, which is to work more intensively within communities. We can't do that unless we have more resources. We run 10 area committees in this area and we can't do more. We don't have the staff to do so. So, I'd be very grateful if that could be considered, that the Helo Blod funding could be included within our core funding. The core funding of the mentrau hasn't increased at all in the past eight years. We are very successful in bringing alternative sources of funding in, but the more core funding we have then the more we can generate ourselves.

A final point is that I would like to see us not only receiving funding through the Welsh language division but that we also have relations with the economy department, which would help us to implement economic proposals, which would be economically beneficial but also beneficial to the Welsh language. We have presented a paper to the Government asking for funding to pilot an official to help us to establish new Welsh-medium social enterprises. We have around five cases that are ready to go. So, actually bringing the Welsh language out of the Welsh language portfolio and working more closely with other departments, such as the economy department, would be a step forward.

Thank you, Meirion. Efa, you wanted to come in.

Yes, just to make the obvious point that there is a link between what you can do and what you can provide and the funding that you receive. So, if we do need to see a step change in any policy area, then the funding decisions need to run along with that. I know I'm stating the obvious, and I don't want to sound like we're all always complaining that we need more funding, but it's because we can see that that additional investment, as the national centre received for Work Welsh—we can see the outcomes of that investment and can see how much more we could have delivered if we had more funding. So, it's a question of priorities for the Government, in a way. We know that there are always demands on the public purse, and we've heard this morning that the Welsh language sector is entrepreneurial and very creative, but funding decisions are important in terms of how the Welsh language sector can deliver its policy objectives in relation to the Welsh language.

Thank you for that, Efa. We will go to Ruth to close.

Very briefly, I'll just go through our comments on this year's draft budget. Expenditure on the growth of Welsh-medium education and bringing the Welsh language into the workplace and investment there so that people can improve their language skills. We need to support the Welsh-speaking heartlands. So, significant long-term investment in those communities that are facing an unsustainable future as a result of the housing crisis and the local opportunities available. And also funding for networking the Welsh language within communities.

Thank you very much, Ruth. Thank you to you all as witnesses for your evidence this morning. You will receive a transcript of your comments so that you can check that, and I'm sure we'll be speaking to you all again on many of the issues that you've raised with us today. If there's anything you want to add as evidence in writing, we would obviously welcome that, but thank you very much for your contributions. Thank you very much.

Members, we'll move to item 5, papers to note. Item 5.1, additional information from Cardiff University following the one-day inquiry on arts and creative industries. Eitem 5.2, a letter from the First Minister to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee regarding the inter-institutional relations agreement and the British-Irish Council summit in Wales. Item 5.3, Welsh Government response to the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee of the fifth Senedd, 'Set in Stone? A report on who gets remembered in public spaces’. And finally, item 5.4, additional information from Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales following our one-day inquiry on heritage, museums and archives. Are Members content to note those papers, or does anyone have anything they wish to state publicly on them? Are we happy to note? I think everyone is happy.

So, we will move on to item 6. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are you as Members content with that? Everyone content? We will continue in private and I will await instructions to hear when we are in private session.