Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

We'll move now to item 3, Members, which is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting today for items 4, 5, 6 and 9. Are you content to accept that? Yes, so we'll move now into private session and return later for another public session. But we'll continue now in private.

Welcome back to our session this morning—yes, we're still in the morning session. We move now to item 7 and back in public, namely the inquiry into participation in sport in disadvantaged areas. This is the first evidence session and we have Sport Wales with us. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, please.

Good morning, Chair. I am Brian Davies and I am the interim chief executive officer for Sport Wales.

Good morning, Chair. I am Owen Hathway. I'm not sure what my title is in Welsh, sorry, so, I'm the assistant director for insight, policy, public affairs and community investment at Sport Wales.

Yes, that is quite a long title. I'm not sure what that is in Welsh either. Thank you very much for that. If it's an okay with you, we'll move straight to the questions. Okay, we'll go straight into it: what do you think are the main barriers to participation in sport in disadvantaged areas that prevent people from taking part in sport? And how does this intersect with other factors, such as sex and gender, age, socioeconomic status, geography, disability, ethnicity? I know this is very broad, but what would be your main findings?

Yes, thank you, Chair. It is very complex, but if can answer in English please—

Yes, of course, you're welcome to do that.

Our insight and our experience shows that the main barriers to participation tend to be either structural or institutional even, but there are also personal and social ones. It's when those issues interact that you get genuine problems. But even on their own, they can form barriers to people taking part in sport.

An example would be structural barriers when there is non-existent access or limited access for particular reasons or they're not suitable or adapted for certain individuals. So, that's a structural example. Institutional ones are quite interesting, because that's where opportunities are hidden or they've been removed because the system hasn't been designed with the needs of individuals in place. And then the personal and social: they are multifaceted, they're complicated, where people find their own unique challenges or they encounter particular issues and that's where you get the personal characteristics showing themselves as a barrier to participation in sport. Fundamentally at a high level, that would be the summary.

Thank you for that, and Owen, I was really struck—I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this as well—that in the written evidence that you submitted to us, you talked about how, actually, even when some of the structural barriers have been addressed, that can be when some of the personal barriers can come into play and that they might be more difficult to anticipate almost, but, yes, I'd be interested to hear what you've got to say as well.

I think that in response to your question about how those specific issues of equality and inclusion intersect with deprivation, I think there are two really important things: one, we can't look at them in a particular silo. So, yes, there are specific barriers for people by age or by gender, by disability, but obviously, if we are seeing someone who is female with a disability, then those obviously are multiple in terms of their impact then.

What we also do know is that everywhere where we see inequality—. So, if you're disabled, you're less likely to be participating in sport with any frequency. If you're female, you're less likely to be participating; if you're from certain ethnic minority backgrounds, for example. At the same time, when we look at deprivation, if you are from an area of deprivation or if you're impacted by deprivation, you're more likely to be disabled, you're more likely to come from an ethnic minority background. So, that issue of deprivation, which is why I think this is probably a really—I don't know if 'exciting' is the right word—pointed inquiry for the committee to undertake, because tackling that issue of deprivation and the impact that has on sport is probably our best opportunity to impact on those wider inequalities at the same time, rather than specifically targeting one particular inequality, knowing that it might address all the issues around it for women and girls potentially, because actually if we haven't also done that around disability or race or deprivation, we may not actually have solved the problem for those individual women and girls in their interactions with sport.

Yes, that makes sense, and we've been really keen in how the team has been framing this inquiry and taking into account what lots of stakeholders have said to us that, as you've been saying, it's so important not to look at this in a silo way because different factors can interact with one another and can compound one another. So, yes, thank you so much for that.

We'll move on to questions from committee members, if that's okay, and we'll move to Carolyn Thomas first, who we have on the screen here.

Diolch, Chair. How do you measure unmet sporting demand in areas of deprivation, and how would you then look at investment decisions? How would you be guided by that into investment decisions?

Thank you, Carolyn. We do several studies to measure participation across the board, really, not just in areas of deprivation. So, there's the national survey that the Welsh Government undertake, which has sports questions in it. We have our own, what was the world's largest school sport survey—sadly been overtaken by England, but, pro rata, it's still the biggest in the world—which is about to launch again at the end of this month. So, we have some specific surveys, but we also do project-specific reviews and the gathering of insight as well. And of course, during the pandemic, we ran some bespoke surveys as well, to find out what impact the pandemic was having on participation rates, and, obviously, came back with the sad news that the issues were exacerbated by the pandemic in areas of deprivation and for those who were already facing struggles to participate in sport. So, there are those methods, but then there's also the partnerships that we've got out in the field. So, we have national governing bodies and, importantly in this space as well, we have national partners, such as StreetGames and other organisations that have a lot of insight, wider than just sport. So, those are the sorts of main ways we get our insight.

I'll pass over to Owen if I've missed anything, but, before I do, you did mention the investment approach—how do we then make investment? Well, that insight is vital to making sure we do put the money where it's most needed, and we changed our investment approach pre pandemic to take into account these factors. It's what you could call blank-page budgeting, for a change, instead of just giving people what they've always got, or organisations getting what they've always got. So, it's a huge area for us, this, and that's why I said at the beginning to the Chair that this inquiry could be really helpful to us, in terms of either reshaping or shaping better what we do, or what we plan on doing, and evidencing why we're doing it as well.

Just to add to that, I think Brian has captured the main mechanisms used. Obviously, a bit of a plug for the school sport survey, which is going live on 28 March. We do capture over 100,000 pupils; it was 120,000 when we did this in 2018. And we do break that data down by specific demographics, including using free school meals as a proxy indicator for deprivation. And so we're able to uncover some specific trends that might impact on both the participation, demands, but also things such as confidence, motivations for pupils from those demographics.

And just to expand a little bit on what Brian said in terms of our investment approach, we invest in sports and partners based on that data, and other data, that shows us the size and scale of a partner's ability to have an impact, looking at things like participation and demand. But we also weight things specifically around inequality—so what's their size and scale of impacts when it comes to women and girls, ethnic minority backgrounds, disabilities, and, indeed, deprivation. So we are, essentially, funding now to recognise the individual impacts of our partnerships on those demographics, to be able to drive the right responses to those demands and needs from those individual groups that we've measured through the national survey for Wales and the school sport survey predominantly.

Okay. Thank you. Well, my second part was to ask about the school sport survey and what your response rate is regarding all areas. So, does it vary by areas of deprivation? But it sounds like you do have a good coverage from all areas. And how confident are you that insights from the survey are accurate in relation to disadvantaged areas?

So, our response rate is significant; as Brian says, it is the largest per capita—still—survey of its type in the world, and certainly we'll be pushing to try to regain that number one spot, although it's not a competition in terms of numbers. But 120,000 took part in it last time, and we should definitely give credit as well to our local authority partners and the education sector for supporting that. And we're really enthused about some of the changes we've made, to make it even more accessible this time round. So, the response rates are significantly high.

What we also do as well is make sure that there are defined thresholds in terms of that response rate. So, we have a specific number by school level and local authority level for gender, and then we also use Welsh Government data, pupil data and free school meal data to ensure that when we weight the data it is representative of those sub-samples of the demographics as well. So, irrespective of the total number we have, we make sure that it's representative when we actually analyse the data and look at how it represents too the views and individual groups within that sub-set of the data we collate.

Does the school sport survey capture what's available in the wider area as well, not just what's provided through school? And what surveys are you able to carry out regarding geographical deprivation as well? So, access later on, if they're heading towards more elite and professional sports as well, perhaps in certain areas as they build up their expertise in that sport that they're following.

So, in terms of whether we capture the outside-school provision, we do ask around community and club participation. So, we do get a feel for that. It doesn't necessarily tell us the opportunities are there because it may be that a pupil is filling in a survey telling us what they have done in their communities, and what they want to do in their communities, but the awareness of whether they can do that might not be evident to that pupil. So, it might be that they have a significant demand for doing a particular sport, but, actually, they are not doing it even though there are clubs relatively close to that environment. What we try to do then when we analyse the data is work with our governing bodies, the sport partners, local authority partners, to be able to signpost them to make best use of that insight for their resources. So, if there's a significant demand for, for example, judo in Carmarthenshire, and we know that there's a number of clubs in that area where actually participation isn't high, then that particular sport will be able to use that data to reach out and recognise where they need to raise awareness of the opportunities. In other areas, there might be a huge demand, but the facilities are not there, and therefore, that might help plan the facility provision moving forward.

That's great.

Thank you.

Could I just add to that?

Yes, sure.

I think it's worth mentioning as well that we do provide bespoke reports, based on the data, to each local authority and school, provided they give us a certain number of responses, to help them plan. So, it's not just a national level gathering exercise for us. The results are also provided locally for the people who filled in the survey to help them design their provision going forward.

Yes, and we did that in 2018, and we will again provide those bespoke reports by sport as well. So, the governing bodies will be able to work with local authorities and individual schools when they look at their curriculum planning, so that they can actually look at the provision within that school as well.

Okay. Before we move on to Alun, forgive me, Heledd, did you want to come in on something?

Just to say, I know as a school governor, actually, I had the opportunity to have that conversation, and I think it was worth while to see how that then translates into action at a school level. Obviously, that is quite resource intensive in terms of that, so do you have the adequate resources to be able to fulfil that role?

So, in terms of our resources, we produce bespoke individual school level reports for every school, and that's planned into our activity over this year. We are also digitising a significant number of education resources that we had previously collated through our experience of working in the sector, to be able to provide that, not just in terms of letting schools understand their needs and demands, but actually some of the bespoke resources they can use to meet those.

In terms of curriculum delivery, that's not a role for us at present, but we've certainly been supporting a lot of the work with the education sector around the development of the curriculum and the health and well-being area of learning experience, as well as looking at that wider teacher support.

The other thing I would say is, obviously this is particularly pertinent with the new curriculum that's being brought in, and trying to reflect the lived experience of the individuals within those schools and their wider environment, I think the intelligence that our school sport survey provides to schools will be a really useful tool in that. So, it can potentially be resource heavy if you want to bespokely deliver what is being asked of you by your own pupils, but, at the same time, given that's the way the curriculum is going, I think the school sport survey makes that obligation—or want, not obligation, because I know schools want to do that—less resource intensive because we've given them the intelligence to be able to plan.

I think it it probably worth mentioning as well that, in terms of resources, it is intensive in term of internal resource. So, a lot of Owen's staff will be working on this for a period form March to July, and potentially beyond. But it shows how much weight we put on the survey, and the fact that we're also a provider of officials statistics. So, it's important that we get it right and do it properly as well.

And just—. Sorry, Chair, just—

No, go ahead. It's important.

I think what we don't want the survey to ever become—and it hasn't previously, and it isn't my intention it ever does—is just that we are using it as some sort of benchmarking tool—this is how many people are doing things. If it doesn't provide—. Irrespective of what the resource implications are, if it doesn't provide tangible things that schools, local authorities, sports and ourselves can actually respond to, make changes off the back of, and deliver the sort of opportunities that we understand the public want, then it isn't really valuable us doing that; we could just provide any type of survey. We want it to be a survey that does provide tangible action off the back of it and makes for a better sport and education sector in Wales.

Thank you, and just very briefly, because I'm aware that Alun will be wanting to come in, but, in terms of other ways in which you use the data that you collate, is the main way that you use that—is it to signpost, as you say, so that different partners can be aware to take targeted actions? Are there other ways in which you as an organisation would use that data in order to reflect on how you would want to be targeting disadvantages and things like that?

Yes, it's a significant part of our investment approach. It's the mainstay, really, of our decisions in investing in partners, certainly governing bodies, because they're data-driven entities, really. So, that, together with the national survey, allows us to focus particular investment in a certain way because we have that insight. It's true to say it hasn't been without difficulty, in that partners don't like change—no-one likes change—and this can be a significant change for some partners. But, fundamentally, it's trying to address these issues that you're looking into here in terms of disparity of provision. So, we're confident it's the right thing to do, and that school sport survey is the bedrock of those kinds of decisions we're taking.

Thank you.

We'll move on to Alun Davies.

Thank you, and thank you for the evidence this morning. I was quite taken in your written evidence that you've looked at examples elsewhere in the world. I think you've quoted New Zealand and Norway in that evidence. Now, I fear that I have to tell you that I have very little idea what happens in either one of those two countries, so it might be useful if you were able, in perhaps a written form, rather than this morning, to outline exactly what those examples are so that we can understand the use of those examples in your evidence in a bit more of a productive way. I'm more familiar with the example of Iceland, I have to say, about how public resources are maximised in order to provide opportunities for, particularly, younger age groups.

I'm interested, therefore, in how you see your role, because we understand the structure and the work of Sport Wales, but I'm interested in how you culturally seek to deliver your role. Because, if I think back over the years I've represented Blaeanu Gwent, I think almost every year we're looking for funding to deliver resources and facilities and the rest of it. I met Tredegar football club a couple of weeks ago to discuss exactly this. I've had similar conversations in Nantyglo, Blaina, Abertillery, Ebbw Vale and the rest of it, and there's always a real shortage of facilities in, particularly, I find, poorer parts of the country. So, how do you see your role in addressing that need?

Thank you, Alun. Just on that last point, that is the change in the investment approach we're trying to make here, which is we prioritise those areas of greatest need, and that hasn't always been the case before. There has been a mantra many, many, many years ago about 'sport for sport's sake'. This is the shift we're trying to take here, to show the power of sport, the ability of sport, to make a difference to their communities. But the reality is, to come to your first part of the question, sport can't do this on its own; it is a cross-portfolio menu that is required. So, in those areas that you mention, some resources could be made available, or greater resources could be made available, by sport, but, fundamentally, without health and education and other people at the table, then it's really difficult to make a great impact. Sport on its own isn't the biggest tool. Sport together with education, health, housing and higher education can make a massive difference, and that's what we're trying to do with our regional partnerships. We're establishing five across Wales. The first that has been established is in north Wales. So, rather than fund six individual local authorities from the pot that we have available, we've created sport north Wales—or it has been created by those local authorities—and that entity has housing around the table, it has education, it has health, it has sport, obviously, and anyone else who has got an interest in using sport as a tool. That's the vehicle, the regional partnership. So, we really want to emphasise that as a potential game changer in this space.

And the last bit I'd say—I expect Owen's itching to come in—from the problems that Sport Wales had in 2016 and the independent review by the Minister at the time, we ran a vision-setting exercise across Wales with all interested parties, not just sports bodies. And that vision is fundamental still to what we're trying to do. Our strategy is based on the vision, the vision is based on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and people's views on what they want sport to do in Wales. And our business plan, which is based also on the strategy and the remit letter, is also linked to the vision. So, it's all circular, but highly dependent—I'll come back to the first point—on others coming to the party and seeing sport as a tool.

If I can just add a little bit at the end, that's the macro picture and the systemic change we're trying to create, and I think Brian's captured it really well. I guess if I look at, 'What can we do right now?' to answer your question, Alun, we have community funding streams as well; it's probably our most effective immediate policy tool. So, a club like Tredegar football club can come in to access that. We do weight, trying to ensure the funding goes to areas of high deprivation and need more heavily within our crowdfunder funding stream. For example, with A Place for Sport, where we invest in facilities, we give a disproportionate amount of money to those areas. And, certainly within our broader Be Active Wales fund, we try to take decisions that enhance the opportunity to invest in those areas.

What we have found is that, despite our efforts in terms of how we fund, we've failed at—. Well, 'failed' is probably a strong word, but we haven't encouraged as many applications from those areas to come into us. We might be better at supporting those applications, but actually encouraging and engaging those communities to apply. So, we've been doing some work in reviewing those community funding streams with the Centre for Digital Public Services to both look at our system, which allows that to be less bureaucratic and as accessible as possible, but also the language and the approach that we take to be able to reach out into those communities and those non-traditional clubs that we perhaps haven't engaged with.

So, that is an ongoing piece of work, but there are streams available from Sport Wales, and we are itching and keen to ensure that those clubs are accessing our funding. And I think there is a potential role for you as elected Members to promote and highlight those as well and for us to work with as many different organisations, and particularly those who perhaps are not part of the sports sector, to promote those as well to make sure that we are ensuring that they are accessible.

I'm grateful to you both for those very positive responses. Chair, I'm very interested in what was said earlier about the northern sports partnership, about delivering facilities on a regional basis, because I think that's really important. Authorities as small as Blaenau Gwent simply don't have the capacity to deliver the sorts of facilities that people need and deserve and are comparable elsewhere. I would certainly be very interested in finding out more about that and about how we can understand and learn from that. So, anything Sport Wales can do to help us do that would be very useful.

Yes, would you be able to send us something in writing?

Yes.

Thank you.

And on the New Zealand—[Inaudible.]

That would be very helpful. Thank you very much. Okay, back to Alun.

I'm grateful. And also the point that Owen made about increasing support for those funding streams and access to those funding streams I think is pretty essential. But, you know, you can have as many pitches or whatever as you like, you've also got to get people on those pitches, and I suspect that it might be easier in Penarth than in Trefil. And I'm interested as to how do we persuade younger people. We've had numerous anecdotal evidence, and I think that we've got some harder evidence, of a falling off of participation amongst, particularly, teenage girls, for example, and I'm interested as to how you see your role in promoting the take-up of sporting activity, particularly in those areas that are more deprived, where you don't have the same levels of facilities and support as you would, for example, in the city, in Cardiff.

Thank you, Alun. I think the answer here is linked to some of the answers previously, that we need to know what the people in those areas want to do, rather than just impose things on them. But, clearly, facilities will probably be an element that needs to be looked at as well, regardless of what that need is. So, if it's basketball, what facilities for basketball are there? But also, fundamentally, it's about—. We call it the wraparound to the facility. If people don't enjoy something, then they're unlikely to participate in it, so we need to look at their motivations and their confidence and their abilities and what is on offer for them. And I guess that's why we do call it a complex menu of issues, but, fundamentally, it does boil down to, if people enjoy doing something, they will keep doing it, but enjoyment is also linked to facilities, sometimes—you need a quality facility to enjoy it. Maybe I enjoy—

You can't play—. Sorry. You can't play ice hockey without an ice rink. Now, that's an extreme example, but you can't swim unless you've got a swimming pool and, quite often, if you're younger, unless you've got a bus that gets you to that swimming pool and gets you back as well. So, there's a lot of those different issues, and I accept that it's not about the work of Sport Wales in isolation, but it is about Sport Wales acting as a catalyst, I think, and that's why I'm very interested in your earlier answer about what you're doing in the north. So, I'm interested as to the role that you see for yourselves in providing opportunities, because, you know, my daughter played hockey because she was given the opportunity to play hockey. She would never have thought about going out and buying a hockey stick and playing hockey unless she'd been provided with the opportunity. I know there's a very successful gymnastics group in the constituency as well, and that provides opportunities for younger children, particularly, to participate. So, I'm interested in how you see your role in delivering these opportunities, connecting the opportunities to facilities and then delivering the sort of support—coaches or managers or whatever—that enables clubs to be successful.

Yes. I think we tend to use a term that some people don't like, where we see ourselves as an enabler—

Oh, I like it—don't worry, I'm happy with that.

—mainly because the specifics you mentioned are exactly that—people that do we need to try and help, but we don't do the doing. Valleys Gymnastics Academy does all the doing in those particular areas, or the other examples you mentioned. We are there also, though, to prioritise, because, with the limited resources available just for sport itself, we can't do everything, which is a shame, but, working with people, partners are vital, and we've now put an increased emphasis on wider partners than just governing bodies. But, without governing bodies putting in the products that people might want to take part in, we'd fail again. So, we need governing bodies, we need other national partners with detailed insight about the issues we're trying to address, we need local authorities, we need the trusts for those local authorities that have used that mechanism for providing its facilities, and all that needs to work together.

And it brings me back to mentioning the vision. When the vision was developed by the sector—not by Sport Wales—everyone agreed with it. So, as long as everyone keeps looking back at the vision, depending on what they're doing, and checking in on the vision, then they should have confidence that what they're doing is the right thing. But, fundamentally, Alun, you're right, we do need doers out there, and I think our role is to work with them, identify them, support them as much as we can and enable them to be able to do what they want.

Yes, and I understand that many of these roles are for the governing bodies as well, rather than for yourselves; I understand and I accept that. I was very impressed with what Noel Mooney was saying from the Football Association of Wales when they launched their plan for the future, and that seemed to be very much rooted in grass-roots football, in this case, but it could be any other sport. Could you—? I don't know if you're comfortable doing so—if you don't feel comfortable, by all means tell us that. Do you see that some governing bodies are better than others in terms of enabling grass-roots participation, and do you think there are any examples within Wales or the United Kingdom of good practice that could be used in order to promote the extension of that good practice to other sports?

Some have had more success than others, I guess, initially, but I think this is an area that is new to most of them. I think, if they were brutally honest, most governing bodies would say that they've done things in a particular way for a long time. But, what I would say is their appetite to do it differently is definitely there, and when you have guys like Noel Mooney and others—because there are others—who really do understand what we're trying to achieve with the vision, they're a key partner. So, we should benefit from a new person coming in like Noel Mooney to emphasise what a great opportunity we've got with, in his case, his sport, to provide mental health and well-being opportunities for participants in the community, opening up the clubhouses and the pitches for things other than football. I'm pretty sure nearly every other governing body would say the same thing. We do then end up pushing up against resource issues, and I'll come back to the regional partnerships, because, together, with health and education, we should have more resource, because we're delivering against those agendas, or the governing bodies will be, or the clubs will be, and they're delivering against the health and education agenda. And crime as well; the crime commissioner is another person around the table. So, it's fantastic that we've got the energy of Noel, it's fantastic that we've got the energy of the governing bodies' chief execs as well, because, together, they're an impressive force that can be for the good of Wales and we need to maximise every opportunity that comes our way through that group of organisations.

Finally from me, I don't know what you feel about this, but if you were going to be providing Welsh Government with a list of priorities for sport, what would be at the top of that list? I know money is always going to be there, so just park that for one moment. But, what are the non-financial interventions that you believe Welsh Government should be doing that they're not doing at the moment or could be doing better that would most benefit participation and the extension of sporting activity, particularly in areas of high deprivation?

A very good question. I'll use an example where I think it's improving, which is health, with the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' opportunities and the daily active opportunities that we're involved with. I'd see those as examples where those are making a positive difference to bringing entities or departments together. But, if I had one ask, I think it's an improvement in the education space. With the new curriculum coming on board there is a little bit of a vacuum—if that's not too strong a word—about who is responsible for what in the area of learning and experience for well-being. If there was one thing I think we could improve, it would be that. Our business plan that will be in response to the remit letter will have six areas in it. Equality, diversity and inclusion is foremost, but education is also there as a key thing for us to work and grapple with with Government. I think my one ask would be education at the moment.

I'd agree with that, partly because it's the most captive audience; it's where we've got our young people all together. And we also know that sustainable habits are formed during those formative years and you're much more likely to have people have a lifelong enjoyment of sport if you catch them at that age. The only other thing I would say is—. I will raise funding as a resource—not necessarily a demand for more money, but more how do we ensure that funding that is already in the education system and health system is being used to drive outcomes with sport as the vehicle. It doesn't necessarily have to be more money for sport or Sport Wales, but how do we use funding that's already in the system and prioritise to deliver the outcomes that those sectors want, but using sport as that vehicle for educational attainment or preventative health agendas?

Can I just follow up on that very quickly? Do you think that our existing facilities—public facilities, that is—in terms of schools, leisure centres and the rest of it—? Do you think we're getting our value out of them? Do you think they're being used sufficiently, or do you think there's a sense of—? Because I drive past various pitches and leisure centres and I see quite a lot of them in darkness, not being used. Is there a sense that we could do more to maximise the value of what we already have?

'Yes' is the quick answer. I'd probably use the example of schools again, where we've got a real drive to open up facilities for community use after the school day. There is a programme in place currently looking at beyond the school day and what can be done. We've got 12 pilot schools on board across Wales, looking at how we can maximise those facilities for wider than educational use. It's not easy, though, because there are pressures on schools as well, and it does come at a cost. But there's definitely an opportunity to do better. In terms of the twenty-first century schools programme as well, it has got better in terms of linkages with sports, so that they're building the right things in the right place for sport provision, because that is another area where there's huge investment going in, and there are some great examples and some, potentially, poor ones, and we want to make the former the majority rather than the later. So, yes, there are some examples like that.

Diolch yn fawr ichi.

Diolch, Alun. This may be something that we'll want to come back to, because there are a couple of supplementary things I would have wanted to raise. I will if there is time at the end, but I'm very aware that we've got some Members who haven't asked their questions yet. Carolyn, did you want to come in here? I saw your hand up.

Yes. I sat on the children and young people partnership committee, and I raised there about ensuring that there was enough sports in a school day, because I picked that up as a previous concern under the new curriculum. But then I was contacted by Jessica of Sport Wales, who wanted to meet with me, and she said that she had fed into the new curriculum consultation, and so she wasn't too concerned about sport being part of the new curriculum, and through education at school. I'm just hearing conflicting views here today, so I wanted to raise that. Thank you.

Just to clarify, I don't there are inconsistent views. I guess what Brian has just mentioned there is the use of school facilities and the extension beyond the school day. Our view on the curriculum is that we are comfortable and we've supported the idea of the new curriculum in embedding physical activity and sport across the area of learning. What we also, obviously, need to do is to ensure that that this implemented effectively—that teachers are supported in the delivery of that. And we do look at the accountability of, actually, have the intentions of the new curriculum played out in practice. But the intention of it is something that we have supported.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Would you be able to send us some more information about the trials that you mentioned, about opening up the facilities? Would that be all right? Thank you.

The 12 pilots?

Yes, please. Forgive me, yes—pilots. We'll be sending a note to you and we'll be sending you the transcript to remind you of anything that we've requested from you as well.

We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. How are the participation gaps that have widened during the pandemic being tackled?

Owen mentioned earlier some specific current interventions that we've got—funding ideas or programmes. Immediately, that would be the way we're trying to address them. We've given a greater emphasis to those kinds of projects that are addressing those issues that were identified. But Owen also pointed out that, maybe, we need to do a better job of trying to secure applications for those kinds of projects as well. That would be the immediate way. But, fundamentally, they also feature in our long-term investment approach with partners—that they get a greater degree of investment if they're addressing these kinds of issues as part of their offering to the communities that they serve.

I'd add that there have been some bespoke interventions, such as the Summer of Fun programme, the Winter of Well-being programme that the Welsh Government has initiated—we've helped co-ordinate some of that with a range of different partners—and the recovery package the Welsh Government put in place. If we're being really truthful, the areas of inequality we've seen in sport have been compounded through the pandemic, and all the interventions we've put in place have been significant, but I'd say that they're probably helping us not let that gap become even wider, rather than pulling that gap closer together. But as Brian says, coming out of the pandemic, if we can say we're coming out of the pandemic, tackling these areas of inequality and depravation are fundamental to our strategy, to the vision for Sport Wales and our investment approach, and I know those are the discussions we've had with our partners around the interventions they're specifically putting in place to be able to challenge those things. I don't think that we could say that the issues that we've seen through the pandemic have been addressed. That would be too bold a statement, because we know they were widened during the pandemic itself.

Just following on from that, then, I guess it's almost the reverse question: has the pandemic and the impact of the pandemic taught you anything that can help improve participation in disadvantaged areas as we come out of it?

I think some of the evidence we did see—that tracking policy we did during the pandemic—showed that there were opportunities during the initial stages around the messaging on the importance of physical activity in sport. We saw a significant amount of people doing physical activity for their mental health. We've always known the benefits of sport for mental health, but I think that's become really evident now as a key driver for engaging people around participation. We also saw some different innovative ways around delivery, repurposing of facilities, sports delivered in different ways, online provisions, which are potentially ways of engaging audiences, particularly those who perhaps lack confidence to join a club or join a facility in future. So, there is some learning that came out of the pandemic that I think will inform the programmes of Sport Wales, but also our particular partners who've had to be responsive and reactive during that period of time.

The only thing I'd add as well is that collaboration was a lesson that we learnt—especially governing bodies and local authorities working together. It was quite powerful. So, we want to try and encourage that, to not lose that learning. We've got some examples going forward now of governing bodies working together on issues like behaviour change campaigns, et cetera. Rather than doing it in isolation, they're doing it together. That was definitely something that had a benefit, I guess, from the pandemic. And Owen mentioned as well some innovative thinking: don't do what you've always done. This is an opportunity to try and do something different. Quite a few governing bodies and partners have done that as well.

One final one, then. I'm pleased to hear you mention mental health as a driver to get people involved in sport. I'm just wondering, how would you say sport sits within the existing mental health framework? Could that be improved in terms of people recognising that they need mental health support, whether that be some of the more serious mental health issues or whether that be something like—you know, as we all learnt through the pandemic—loneliness and all the rest of it? How do you see sport currently sits in that wider mental health framework, if you like, and how do you think it could be improved?

I think in terms of its priority, it's very prominent, very visible. I think decision and policy makers make it very prominent. When we look at the issues around deprivation, if we already know that people from deprived communities are less likely to access sporting opportunities from a financial basis, they're also more likely already to suffer from potential issues around mental health because of the pressures of living in deprivation. So, we're almost seeing that compounding effect of potentially creating issues around mental health within those communities, but also less access to the things that we know could actually alleviate some of those concerns. So, there is a greater role to be done in terms of co-ordinating, and I think it probably comes back to the answer I gave to Alun around the priority of prevention when it comes to health budgets and health policy decisions. Sport and physical activity sometimes is an afterthought of policy intervention rather than at the forefront of it, and that might not even be a financial resource commitment, but just thinking through the opportunities for collaboration across the sport sector when it comes to delivery of policy interventions. To go back to my original point, though, I do think that there was a really positive outcome to the start of the pandemic around heightening the awareness of physical activity for mental health, so that does put us in a better place to have some of those conversations with colleagues in the health sector and beyond around its use within that agenda.

Okay. Happy? Great. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much. You've spoken quite a lot about collaboration in the sports sector, and the importance of education and health. A number of the barriers that you've mentioned relating to people taking part in sport are similar barriers to those in terms of culture, as well—for example, lack of resources, lack of the necessary facilities, and so forth. Is there any collaboration between you as a body and the cultural sector in order to be able to promote people to get involved in activities? Because clearly there is a cross-over here in terms of dance, for example. Is there a collaboration between you? Because a number of the challenges are very similar.

It's a really interesting question, because we sit within the department that has culture and sport as part of its responsibilities, in terms of the Minister's portfolio. So, we do work with the other bodies, but it's at a higher level, so it could be done more operationally, I believe. But we do sit on the lottery forum and there are arts organisations that also benefit from lottery funding too. So, I think it's an area where we could do more.

The question in terms of dance is very interesting too, because during the pandemic we provided support for a great many dance schools, and people don't usually see dance as part of the sporting sphere; they see it as something that's cultural, but culture don't see it as their responsibility, so that's a very interesting question, and it's been one that's been around for years. But there's a conversation to be had on that.

I would conclude by saying that there are opportunities because we sit under the same ministerial portfolio to do more together, but it won't be easy, because there is a great deal of pressure for us to do things on our own too. And we work very closely with the Urdd, and the Urdd does a very good job of crossing those boundaries as a body anyway, so we learn a great deal from the Urdd—in terms of how to mix the cultural and the sporting. So, there are lessons for us to learn from the Urdd there too.

Brian spoke there about the work that we as a body do, but where there are opportunities for us is to look at the offer beyond the school day. We're perhaps not just talking about the offer in terms of sport, but the offer in terms of arts and music and so on, all together. There are opportunities to bring the whole ministerial remit together with the education sector in one place, where children after school want to do this sort of thing, and perhaps we've seen those sorts of subjects pushed out of the curriculum slightly. So, there are opportunities, not perhaps for us as Sport Wales but for sport in general, to collaborate with the cultural sector within the education sector there.

Thank you very much. Looking at social prescribing, do you believe—? Perhaps this is a similar situation, but do you think that there are more opportunities for us to be innovative in Wales, and do you see a role for Sport Wales in terms of moving that agenda forward, clearly in partnership?

Do you want to answer that, because we had a message this morning from the department saying that somebody was representing us on some board that's looking at social prescribing, but I don't remember the detail. Unfortunately, there are opportunities to play a role. It would be better if there wasn't an opportunity and no need for it, but there is a role for sport in terms of the schemes that exist, and I'm pleased that we have representation around the table. But of course, the challenge and the costs relating to this aspect are huge, and we have a small budget, but we have knowledge and experience, and hopefully that will be of interest to the committee or the board that's being established and can have an impact.

I'll answer in English, if that's okay.

Yes, of course.

We've got a role—we play an advocacy role, I think, not a delivery role in this area. It's not something we invest specifically in, but time, resource and expertise, perhaps, and certainly advocating for it. I think social prescribing is a really powerful tool. I think it's a really positive tool within the health sector. The only thing I would say is that if we are focusing on a social prescribing model, as effective and useful as that is, it's still treating the symptom not the cause here, so our investment approach, for example, is trying to identify how do we maximise the lifelong enjoyment of young people in sport, to create habitual, lifelong engagement in it. Hopefully, it reduces the amount of people that we need to socially prescribe at that point, rather than just dealing with that end. But our role, I think, is an advocacy role, and promoting the benefits of sport, not just in terms of the treatment of the physical or mental conditions that individuals who are being socially prescribed are facing, but also how does that lead to them, perhaps, becoming more involved in the different communities that have other wider benefits that are not the initial physical impact of the social prescribing.

Diolch. Just a final one from me. You mentioned the twenty-first century schools programme and new facilities and so on, and also in terms of after-school clubs et cetera. In terms of monitoring, then, access to those, obviously we're seeing with some, specifically with Welsh-medium education, it can mean longer journeys for children from disadvantaged areas, which means they can't take advantage of those facilities after school or the after-school clubs, because school transport tends to be just for the official part. So, how are you monitoring participation, to ensure that everyone is able to benefit, not just those, perhaps, who have parents with transport et cetera that can actually help them take advantage of those facilities?

Yes, it's a really important point, because if you look at the school sports survey results in 2018, a significant barrier was, 'If I didn't have to catch a bus after school'. It's not just a case of putting on those opportunities, but actually, if public transport isn't there, or it's too costly for public transport, or if they have caring responsibilities et cetera, then they're not going to be able to take those opportunities up. So, I think that is a missing piece of the puzzle here. As Brian said, there is a pilot approach at the moment, so that's probably the level of evaluation we're currently looking at and whether some of those different models that we're piloting will showcase some of the potential barriers: is this an issue of opening up school facilities, or is it a wider issue of opening up school facilities, and then the ability of individuals within those communities to access them?

Also, how do we ensure those school facilities are not just for that milltir sgwâr; that actually it reaches out into wider communities and brings people together. So, there's a whole host of different challenges around the access to those facilities. I would say that our pilot process is probably going to draw some of those out in the evaluation, rather than us monitoring that on a mass level. The school sports survey will ask a little bit about that in terms of participation, and we'll be able to look at that in terms of whether there is a specific impact around deprivation, but those issues around transport are probably things we need to understand more in a lived experience model rather than a surveyed approach.

Diolch.

I think it's an example of where a blunt instrument is not required, but something more specific, depending on the circumstances, geographic or deprivation, or whatever they are. The pilots will identify some of these issues, but, fundamentally, it just demonstrates how many things intercollide here to make a difference that you have to address. If you just address one, you might not solve the problem at all.

Diolch.

Diolch, Heledd. Carolyn, before we move on to your final question, as I know that will take us into a slightly different arena, just briefly, if I could—. Heledd was just talking about some of the structural barriers. When our committee did the pre-appointment scrutiny with Baroness Grey-Thompson, a really fascinating point came up in that session about how actually—particularly if we're talking to children, but people of all ages—a message needs to get through that you don't have to be good at sport, but that, actually, enjoyment and getting something out of it doesn't have to be all about getting a—. Do you think, in terms of some of the personal barriers that you've been referencing at the start, and in your written evidence as well, that the need to kind of gain more confidence and to focus on that enjoyment, not just on achievement or excellence, do you think that's something that is more than—? I don't want to do a leading question, so what would your reflections be on that?

Lead away, because it absolutely is the answer. [Laughter.].

We're on the same page.

Yes. That's what the vision for sport in Wales is about. It's about a lifelong enjoyment of sport and that might be that you are a performance athlete at the Commonwealth Games or you are literally walking into a facility for the first time to try something new that you have got no problem with being good or bad at. To go back to Alun's point, actually, what is our role beyond facilities? It's to be the catalyst for that type of narrative when it comes to sport.

If you look at the school sport survey, for example, we see that, at primary school level and boys' confidence to try sport, 85 per cent say they're confident. For girls, it's 83 per cent. When we go into the secondary school, boys have dropped slightly to 83 per cent, but girls are sort of 68-69 per cent, so we see a big confidence drop-off, and tackling some of those issues around enjoyment will tackle the issue around confidence. If people enjoy what they're doing, they'll be confident to do it, and that'll lead them to try new things. Success for them is a personal measure; it's not a performance measure necessarily in that instance, and that's how we'll get more mass participation. And saying that we'll follow up with some of the evidence on those international examples, that's probably the core of the Norwegian model around that non-competitive, enjoyment perspective. Actually, as it happens, Norway's model actually delivers significant performance medals as well, but that's a by-product rather than the design of their system.

Thank you so much. Oh, Brian—forgive me.

I was just going to say that, historically, maybe there was an opinion that Sport Wales was just about performance sport, because Wales was doing well and significant bits of lottery investment were going into performance sport. People saw that as Sport Wales, whereas, in reality, we were trying to do lots of these other things like you're exploring now. We're trying to adjust that understanding of what we do, and I think we've done it, or are doing it. But, fundamentally, it's about people's personal podiums. So, Geraint Thomas's podium is the Tour de France, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there are thousands of other cyclists whose podium is just going out on a Thursday in the wet wind and getting fitter. That is still a podium, and I guess it's getting that narrative right to the public, to our partners and even to us internally sometimes, as well, about what we're about.

I really like that—people's personal podiums. Thank you. We have four minutes left. So, forgive me, as there's so little time, does it matter too much, and if it's okay with you, if we went over by a couple of minutes? Carolyn, you had a final question. Diolch.

[Inaudible.]—international best practices. So, are there any international examples of success in this area, and how can Wales learn from these?

I think we've mentioned the ones that we're aware of at the moment. The primary one when it comes to the participation element, I think, would be New Zealand. The Norway one, as Owen has identified, is more about developing athletes in a holistic fashion, sustainably, rather than just focusing on medal numbers. On the Norway one, there is a little bit of an overlap over participation, because it's about enjoyment as well, and motivation. But, fundamentally, it's the New Zealand model I'd be interested to explore. Alun mentioned Iceland. I'm not aware of the Iceland model.

I think, when we started out on the journey with a vision, what we said was, 'We don't think anyone's doing this right.' But that doesn't mean to say that we shouldn't do it or attempt it, and it doesn't mean to say we can't learn specific lessons from specific areas. I'd be surprised if anyone is doing this right; it's a real challenge. The utilisation of sport for the wider good is laudable but not easy, and I doubt very much if anyone has got it correct. But that doesn't mean to say that we shouldn't do it, as I said. Our closest comparator is New Zealand, so I'm pretty sure we can learn a lot from them, and we do a lot of exchanges with New Zealand on other things, more operational than just strategic outcomes. So, those are the ones I'm aware of. Are you aware of any others, Owen? No, they're the obvious ones.

Okay. Thank you very much for a very, very useful session to us, and fascinating—I'm not sure what 'fascinating' is in Welsh. A transcript of what we've all been talking about will be sent to you to check for accuracy. I'm sure we'll be keen to be in contact with you as we continue with this inquiry. We're really looking forward to completing this work—I hope it'll be beneficial. Thank you very much for being with us this morning.

We'll move on, Members, to item 8, papers to note, before we go into private session. Item 8.1 is a joint letter from the Minister for Economy and Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to us regarding scrutiny by the committee of the Welsh Government draft budget. Then, item 8.2 is a letter from the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to us regarding, again, our scrutiny work on the draft budget, and item 8.3 is a letter from the First Minister to us, also regarding our scrutiny work on the draft budget. Item 8.4 is correspondence from Caitriona Noonan from Cardiff University regarding the closure of the young audiences content fund. Are Members content to note the papers, or was there anything that Members wanted to say? Heledd.

Yes, I have a few comments. On 8.1, I would express my disappointment at the tone of the letter. I think that it is important that we develop a transparent and good working relationship with Ministers. There are some parts of it that I think are worth us having further discussions on at some point, in terms of the culture strategy too. I don't think it's sufficiently clear how it will—. We've talked about it being, perhaps, a top-down approach rather than bottom-up and I'm still not entirely sure how those organisations beyond those that receive direct funding from the Welsh Government are going to be part of that, nor either what role that we as a committee can play in supporting that process in a positive way, looking at examples of good practice and internationally too, possibly.

Another point was—sorry, if I may—in terms of the public sector pay settlement and the lack of understanding, I think, in terms of how that works in practical terms, because we've heard from the national library and from National Museum Wales about those challenges and the expectation that they should provide the same settlement, but that the funding isn't there automatically. I think that that is something that I would like to scrutinise further, then, specifically on that letter. I have a few comments on the other letters too.

Okay. On that letter, does anybody else want to say something? I must say that I was slightly surprised by the tone as well. Does anyone else want to say something about the letter in item 8.1, before Heledd wanted to add something on some of the other letters? Is everybody agreed or content that that has been noted? And in terms of further scrutiny work, are we all content to discuss that? Yes. Okay. Heledd, you had something.

Just in terms of 8.3, the letter from the First Minister, clearly he attended a scrutiny session and he noted here that he didn't think it was appropriate in the future, so I think it would be good, in terms of the international remit, to think how we would collaborate in terms of that scrutiny on that particular issue.

Yes, thank you for that. That is something that we will have to look at in more detail, because, clearly, this is an important part of the committee's remit, so we will need to ensure that we make sure that this is scrutinised—I'm not sure of the word—but in a way that actually works as well. So, certainly, we'll want to look at that. Does anyone else want to make any other comment on this letter from the First Minister? Alun.

It is a matter for the Senedd to decide what is appropriate in terms of scrutiny and not the Government. I can give Mark an example of a First Minister who has attended scrutiny committees to discuss individual portfolio responsibilities: I would give you the example of Mark, who attended scrutiny committees in the previous Senedd to discuss these matters. But I think we should certainly be very clear with Ministers, whether it's the First Minister or other Ministers, that it's a matter for this committee to determine its work and it's a matter for the Senedd to determine the level of scrutiny that Ministers receive. It is not a matter for Government to dictate those matters to us.

All agreed on that? I think Heledd wants to come back in.

No, just to second that, I think. We have heard from a number of witnesses that they have been concerned, perhaps, that no Minister has specific responsibility for international affairs. So, it is something that we do have to look at in terms of our right to scrutiny, I think.

Yes. I can see that Tom is—. All happy? Well, not happy, but are we all agreed on that? Yes, okay. Thank you for that, all. Heledd, something else?

On 8.4, I am very grateful that we have received this communication. I think I would like us, Chair, to consider writing to S4C to understand the impact of this cut in terms of the provision for children and young people, and perhaps also—I don't know what other Members think—to the UK Government Minister, in terms of why specifically this has come to an end and whether they've thought about what the implications of this might be in terms of the provision. But perhaps we need to understand what the implications are from S4C first.

Yes, perhaps write to S4C first. Is everybody content that we consider that? I understand that people may want to consider this in more detail, but in principle, are we all happy with considering that? Yes. Okay, great. If no-one has anything else that they'd like to note in public regarding the papers, we will continue in private. So, okay? Yes, I can't see anyone else saying otherwise.

So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, if Members are content. I see that all Members are content, so we'll continue in private, and I'll wait for confirmation that we are in private.