Plenary

The next item is the questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. Question 1 is from Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government issued a response to the UK Government's Human Rights Act reform consultation on 8 March, setting out our significant concerns and opposition to the proposal to replace the Human Rights Act 1998 with a bill of rights.

Diolch yn fawr, Gwnsler Cyffredinol. As you know, the Human Rights Act 1998 and the European convention on human rights is at the very heart of devolution in Wales. Conformity with convention rights is safeguarded by the Government of Wales Act 2006 and was voted twice by referenda by the Welsh people. Given that the Westminster Government claims to respect referenda, it's surprising that they're willing to potentially pull away this power from the Welsh people to hold the Welsh Government and this Senedd to account.

If the Westminster Government implements their proposed changes, meaning that UK secondary legislation no longer needs to be compatible with convention rights and can no longer be challenged by way of judicial review, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, has the Welsh Government considered what impact that would have on the status of Welsh law? Diolch yn fawr.

Well, thank you for the points you make. This is, indeed, a serious constitutional point because, as you've mentioned, human rights are embedded in our constitutional status. You'll know, of course, that we have serious concerns with the nature of the consultation. Although it mentions devolution, it doesn't actually deal with the devolution issues that are there, and it raises a number of areas that cause us concern when there is talk about rights inflation, i.e. that we have too many rights, apparently, and the failure of it to seek to address the issues of socioeconomic rights.

But on the particular constitutional point of if the UK Government were to proceed ahead contrary to recommendations from its previous independent reviews, then we'll have to consider what the implications are for Welsh law. We'll have to consider what the options are in terms of how we actually preserve the status of human rights law and standards within our own legislation. That is something that I am considering at the moment, and will, if necessary, report back in due course.

Thank you for the question. I welcome the investigation by the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court and I'm heartened that 40 states have now referred the matter to the court for consideration. The Welsh Government stands in solidarity with Ukraine and its people, and will continue to support and assist in any way that it can.

Thank you very much for that response, Minister. I know that Members on all sides of the Chamber have already expressed their solidarity with the people of Ukraine and will continue to reach out to people in Ukraine to express that support and solidarity throughout the coming weeks and months. And I know that Members also on all sides of this Chamber will reach out to you, Counsel General, in the way that you've spoken and the impact that that's had on you and your family.

We all want to see an end to this appalling war, and we all want to see those who are responsible for perpetrating criminal activities and war crimes held to account for that. The Welsh Government, I hope, will support the United Kingdom Government in doing so, and I hope, Minister, that you can assure us this afternoon that the Welsh Government will work alongside the UK Government to ensure that we create an international coalition of people across the world to ensure that Putin is not only defeated in Ukraine, but that when he is defeated, he and his Government are held to account for the crimes they are committing today.

Thank you for those comments. Of course, the issue of human rights, of acts of aggression, of war crimes and of, in fact, genocide are matters that actually transcend party political differences, particularly when we see them occurring on 24-hour news, live, in front of our own eyes, in a way that probably has never happened before. What I can say to Members is this: on 1 March 2022, a number of party states, including the UK, referred the matter to the International Criminal Court, and, as I've said, that's increased to 40 now.

On 2 March, the prosecutor announced that he had opened his investigation, and the scope of the investigation encompasses past and present allegations of war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide, committed on any part of the territory of Ukraine by any person from 21 November 2013 onwards.

And then, separately, on 7 March 2022, there was a hearing at the International Court of Justice in respect of allegations of genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. This related to proceedings that were brought by Ukraine against the Russian Federation. The Russian Federation decided not to participate.

We will of course be undoubtedly receiving numbers of Ukrainian refugees in due course. Some of them may be witnesses to war crimes and acts of genocide and it may be that one of the things that we could do is to actually explore the extent to which it is possible for that evidence to be secured for part of the international criminal investigation.

I now call the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Diolch yn fawr, and can I associate myself with the solidarity that's been shown in the Chamber today in respect of the people of Ukraine?

Minister, can you provide us with an update on the discussions you've held with the UK Government and your officials in relation to adopting the provisions of the UK Government's Elections Bill?

Yes, I can. Discussions have been ongoing. They have been very positive and constructive. They haven't yet been concluded. There are two outstanding issues of competence that are still under discussion and the issue of those and whether a legislative consent memorandum is required is under consideration at the moment.

I'm grateful for the update and I'm grateful for the fact that you've said that those discussions have been constructive. I know that, obviously, one of the outstanding issues that the Welsh Government has concern about is the issue of vote ID. And we on the Conservative benches here would encourage you very much indeed to adopt voter identification for all elections here in Wales so that there is some consistency when people go to the ballot box. Do you accept that not having consistency could cause significant problems for voters in terms of making matters confusing for them, particularly if elections for things such as the UK Government general election or police and crime commissioner elections are held on the same day as elections to the Senedd?

Well, of course, that is an issue that has already occurred, as we had the Senedd elections at the same time as the police and crime commissioner elections, and of course there were in fact different franchises for each of those elections.

I think it's very clear that there is a level of divergence. That divergence, I think, is going to increase, and I think what is necessary is that there is an increased emphasis on the clarity of those elections and where those differences apply in respect of particular elections. We of course had put the case to the UK Government that their proposals in respect of voter ID were in fact not only likely to place hurdles in terms of people actually voting, but they were creating an unwarranted divergence. The UK Government has obviously chosen to proceed with those. We disagree with them for all the reasons that we have discussed in recent debates.

Well, as you know, our position is very clear, and that is the fact that 99 per cent of people from hard-to-reach groups have some form of photo identification that would enable them to vote in elections, and 98 per cent of the population as a whole. The remaining 2 per cent that don't can have free photographic voter ID cards. We don't see an issue with that at all. And of course, it was the Labour Government that introduced photographic voter identification in order to vote in Northern Ireland some years ago.

Do you accept that if the Welsh Government is continuing in this opposition to voter ID and that this does cause greater divergence, as you've already suggested is likely to be the case, that one of the consequences of that—and I know that you have urged this in the inter-ministerial group for elections—is that it's highly likely that you'd have to potentially hold elections on a different day than the police and crime commissioner elections, or general elections, which, hopefully, will never clash in the future, of course? What sort of cost implications might that have for the Welsh taxpayer if you were to choose to hold elections on different days, when, frankly, efficiencies in terms of costs might be an issue?

Well, I think the efficient management of elections is something that is always under consideration, and of course has been in the various inter-ministerial discussions. For example, the proposals that are being made by the UK Government, even in respect of just Westminster elections, will have some financial costs, and we've made the case to the UK Government that those costs, obviously, have to be covered. The response has been received, I believe, positively.

In respect of the voter ID issue itself, you know that our view and our difference on this is that we see voter ID as essentially two things: (1) it doesn't have an evidential base to justify it, but, secondly, it is more about voter suppression than it is about robustness of elections. And if that were not the case, there would be an evidential base for its introduction. That evidential base has never been produced, or in fact even solidly argued.

But I think the point you do make is this: that, in the management of elections, we obviously want to see reform in the future, and, of course, the introduction of an electoral reform Bill. We want to see digitisation of the electoral system, which will make it much easier to manage elections, much more cost-efficient to manage elections, and also much more accessible. But, in circumstances where there might be two elections taking place with different franchises, then I think the systems are alert, as they have already been, to the fact that there are those areas of divergence, and there will be different systems. But it has to be managed. It's unfortunate that it's there, but I think it's in the nature of devolution. We have a particular direction in terms of elections that is about accessibility and openness and maximisation of capacity to vote and votes to be counted. I believe the approach adopted by the UK Government is one that goes in a direction that is different.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cwnsler Cyffredinol, you're more than aware of the concern that I and many in this Chamber—from Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party—have of the impact of the legislative consent motions on the devolution settlement and their increased use in this Senedd. The letter today from the Deputy Minister for the arts shows the chaotic nature of the LCM process; it really doesn't work. The education Minister said in the Siambr that he was seeking an amendment to the Professional Qualifications Bill, to make sure that UK Ministers could not amend that important devolution Act, the Government of Wales Act 2006—a very sensible move, you might think. But, in contrast, the health Minister has said that she wouldn't seek a similar amendment. She described the power of UK Ministers to make amendments to that important Bill as a small constitutional risk. She was satisfied with a despatch-box promise by a UK Minister, something that doesn't even bind this Government, let alone any future Government. So, which is it, Cwnsler Cyffredinol? Which conflicting approach, that of the education Minister, or the health Minister, is now the principle of Welsh Government when it comes to legislative consent motions? Diolch yn fawr.

Well, of course, I don't see them as being a contradiction or a conflict in that sense, because each particular Bill has to be assessed in terms of the particular circumstances that are applicable to that. And, of course, LCMs are a constitutional requirement that we have to deal with as a result of UK Government legislation, where it changes or impacts in respect of devolution. You are certainly right in respect of the fact that it is not an appropriate vehicle in terms of ensuring that legislation has perhaps the degrees of scrutiny that you should have. And, of course, that particularly is exacerbated when UK Bills are produced late, have substantial amendments that are made to them very late in the day, with limited opportunity then for proper scrutiny. I think those are things that need to be considered constitutionally, and I'm hopeful that the inter-governmental review will provide a mechanism for at least reviewing how that actually operates.

Some of the points you raise go back to Sewel itself. You mentioned the Professional Qualifications Bill and the position there that has been taken, which is not to give consent. The point you raised with the health Minister, I think is of a different nature because it is about consequential amendments. And, of course, we could adopt the position where we would say, 'No, these minor consequential amendments that you have the power to make we would oppose', but if that's the case then you have to remember that, of course, we also make consequential amendments to UK Government legislation. So, were we to adopt that position, it would then impact on the way we conduct our own legislation where we need to make consequential amendments there as well.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. I look forward to hearing your statement next week about taking forward the recommendations of the Commission on Justice in Wales and the Law Commission report on Welsh tribunals. More of the justice system in fact is devolved to Wales than most people think, especially on those benches opposite me. But one strong argument to devolve the rest would be to show that the Welsh Government are running what they already have well, and it's fair to say that hasn't been the case in the past, with the Welsh tribunals often largely forgotten and neglected by the Welsh Government, and by this place also. To implement the recommendations of both reports, which is within the gift of the Welsh Government, would have positive changes for the people of Wales. It's easy for us to point fingers at the Tories all the time, and it's fun isn't it, but, sometimes, we need to take responsibility ourselves.

Please take this next comment in the good spirit it's being said, but I often struggle with Welsh Government statements. I read it and I try to work out what is it actually trying to say, and more than that, what will it actually achieve. So, please can the Counsel General give us a guarantee that the statement next week will be clear, will provide key milestones and will have accountable leadership to it? Diolch yn fawr.

Well, firstly, the simple answer to that is 'yes'.

Diolch yn fawr.

But I think what I should say is that, certainly with my portfolio as Counsel General and Minister of the Constitution, and with the Minister for Social Justice, what we have recognised is, of course, the Thomas Commission recommended there should be a justice Minister; well, in actual fact, we've effectively created that by the close co-operation in many ways we get, which is more advantageous in the way we're working. But, of course, the issue of justice and the technical aspects of justice, and particularly those that are within our jurisdiction, go very much hand in hand with socioeconomic justice as well. And I think that partnership has been very, very effective.

And I think what I would also say is, of course, the work that is going on in really preparing a very detailed analysis of the Thomas commission recommendations, the work that is going on in partnership with UK Government at the moment, what it has achieved and how it could achieve more, the things that we think could actually be delivered better in terms of justice by the devolution of justice, and also beginning to set the framework for justice, I think is something that will be very substantial. And I do look forward to that debate, because I think we're at the stage where Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd's comments that the devolution of justice is not of question of if but when are beginning to come to fruition. And I see one of the important contributions to that as being the reform of the tribunals. And, as you say, they have come to us in a sort of ad hoc way, have been developed or created in that sort of environment as well. But we have the opportunity, I think, as a result of the recommendations of the Law Commission, to look at the creation of a new administrative justice system within Wales, with potentially its own appellate structure, and I think that would be a very significant step towards, I think, what is an objective that most of those working within the justice system would recognise as being a step forward.

Thank you for the question. Matters relating to access to justice for Welsh citizens are always an important part of my agenda in the regular, frequent meetings that I have with UK Government Ministers.

Diolch, Counsel General. And you'll know—. Ensuring people in Wales have full and proper access to justice, as Members will know, is a clear passion of both of ours. And you will have heard me raise many a time in this Chamber, Counsel General, the injustices of the Post Office Horizon scandal, and the tragedies of Hillsborough and Grenfell. I applaud you and your leadership in this role, and the Minister for Social Justice, for sticking up and standing up for the people of Wales when it comes to justice, and I'm grateful for your constant advice in this area, and your commitment to work with me to see how we can use our current powers within Wales to help retip the scales of justice towards ordinary people.

Counsel General, you'll be aware of the ongoing inquiry into the Post Office Horizon scandal, and, once that inquiry comes to a conclusion, will you commit to continuing to support the families who've been affected by that scandal in whatever they need, including their fight—their ongoing fight—to access to proper justice and also a meaningful level of compensation?

Well, can I thank you for that very important supplementary question? Because what you've highlighted, as you did with the Hillsborough issue, is what is one of the great injustices of the twenty-first century: the injustice of thousands of people being affected by what turned out to be a computer inadequacy with the Horizon computing system, which has resulted in large numbers of people having their lives absolutely destroyed or blighted, people who were imprisoned, their families broken up, their marriages broken up. There have been 72 appeals overturned so far; there are more to come. And often we forget that, in fact, there were something like 2,500 people who actually had allegations made against them and who repaid money to the Post Office that they never needed to repay, because they were not guilty of anything, but to avoid prosecution. So, the impact of this has been so enormous.

I'm very pleased that Sir Wyn Williams is the chair of the inquiry. It will obviously need to complete its work, but we have to ensure two things: one is that everything that can possibly be done to give those people affected justice has to be done; but, secondly, one of the things that quite often doesn't come out of inquiries is that we want to know how it happened, why it happened, how it can be avoided again in the future, and whether there are individuals within the Post Office structure who should be held accountable, because certainly some of the evidence in the inquiry so far indicates that when Post Office Ltd became aware, there was an attempt to actually brush it to one side. Now, that's not to prejudge the outcome of the inquiry and, no doubt, decisions will be made there, but it seems to me that there has to be accountability as well as compensation. I very much welcome the efforts that you have put in, and I will certainly, and I know Welsh Government will do all it can to support those Welsh citizens who've been affected in that way.

Thank you for your question. We are discussing the future of the solicitors indemnity fund with the Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Law Society. I met with the SRA board chair and chief executive in November. We are meeting again later this month, I believe on 26 April, to discuss their proposed next steps following their recent consultation.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler. I know that you are more than aware of the nature of the profession in Wales, especially in rural and post-industrial areas. We do have ageing legal professionals and practitioners. In a place like Mid and West Wales, over 60 per cent are over 50 years of age practising criminal law, and a high percentage also of petitioners in these areas. Now, the solicitors indemnity fund provides real protection for consumers, for users, but also for the legal profession itself. Without a viable alternative being put into place, and there's no viable alternative being mentioned at the moment, the closure of the fund could have a huge impact on the legal profession in Wales and on the Welsh public. Could the Cwnsler Cyffredinol confirm to me that he and officials within the Welsh Government will just gently remind the Solicitors Regulation Authority that there is a legal profession outside London and the big cities? Diolch yn fawr.

I thank you for that supplementary question, and I think perhaps a little bit more than a gentle reminder is probably the case, because I think you're right—the potential impact of these changes—. These are changes where there's an indemnity fund that everyone contributes to for the post-six-year limitation period cover. So, smaller firms are very adversely affected, particularly those in the fields of things like conveyancing, wills and probate, where matters can emerge many, many years later. So, it disproportionately affects Wales, and we already struggle enough with the legal deserts that we have and the issues with regard to the sustainability of small firms within Wales. So, I've raised those concerns with the SRA and with the Law Society, who've been a strong advocate of retaining the indemnity fund. I will do so at the future meetings. I have already highlighted the fact that it is not just the legal profession that would be adversely affected, but it is also the consumers, those who depend upon legal services. And, of course, again, it erodes confidence in the legal profession. So, I thank you for those comments, and I will indeed pursue those issues.

Thank you for that question. Current guidance to employers covering working from home has been issued by the Welsh Ministers under the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No.5) (Wales) Regulations 2020. The Welsh Government has broad powers under health legislation and the Government of Wales Act 2006 to issue guidance on public health matters.

I thank you for that answer, Counsel General. The reason I'm asking it is because, last month, the Conservative MP for Aberconwy asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in the Commons to clarify that the UK Government civil servants working in Wales should follow the rules set by the UK Government rather than the Welsh Government when it comes to the guidance on working from home. But, as you've just said, it's the Welsh Government that sets the guidance for workers in Wales. We've also had the Secretary of State for Wales saying recently he wished that Wales were not able to set our own rules because, and I quote:

'We would have got a greater degree of public understanding'.

Do you agree with me, Counsel General, that it is in fact Conservative MPs who are deliberately and irresponsibly sowing confusion about this, especially when a recent poll by YouGov found that it's abundantly clear that the Welsh public both understand and support the COVID approach taken in Wales?

I thank you for the supplementary question. I suppose, in terms of some of those Members of Parliament who've been making those comments, if the opinion polls are anything to go by, by the next election they won't be here any longer, so maybe that will cease to be an issue there. But the position is very clear: we determine, within our own legal responsibilities, what the appropriate measures are, and that applies in respect of the Welsh civil service and employees as well. The issue as to certain Ministers not being happy with that, well, those are points that they make. I think they're trite points. I think they're made either in ignorance of devolution or in terms of mischief. Welsh Government will always basically follow the advice that it receives medically, and it will seek to give advice and guidance that is proportionate and that protects public health and the health of our employees and our civil servants as well.

Thank you for the question. Section 26A of the Coal Industry Act 1994 requires the Welsh Ministers to approve mining authorisations issued by the Coal Authority before coming into effect. Aberpergwm colliery lawfully acquired its authorisation before the powers were introduced in 2018. Welsh Ministers were not able to intervene in the licensing process.

Thank you for your response.

We all want to keep coal in the ground. The Global Energy Monitor research group estimates that this mine, one of Europe's largest sources of the carbon-heavy anthracite coal variety used to make steel, could emit an eye-watering 100 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in that time. I do understand that the Welsh Government's assessment is that, as the licence was granted under condition in 2016, this predated the powers granted to Welsh Ministers in the Wales Act 2017. Planning permission for the extension was not consolidated by Neath Port Talbot Council until September 2018, five months after the provisions in the Wales Act came into place. The Coal Authority, on 10 January this year, informed the Welsh Government that Welsh Ministers will not be making a determination in this case. And this is the critical bit: the Coal Authority said that, under the Wales Act 2017, if Welsh Ministers had directed them not to license the mine's expansion, they could not have issued a full licence to the operator. Therefore, could I ask you what advice you will now be giving Ministers about objecting to the application to expand Aberpergwm coal mine? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, thank you for the supplementary question. The section 26A provision, introduced via the Wales Act 2017, does not give the Welsh Ministers full coal-licensing powers. The Coal Authority continues to be the licensing authority for the UK. Section 26A is a power to approve mining activities authorised under a licence granted by the Coal Authority. So, we do not have the powers to make a decision in this case, as the licence predates the section 26A power. And the mine operator sought only to give effect to an authorisation already granted by the Coal Authority in 2013. So, the decision to issue a notice discharging existing licence conditions was a matter for the Coal Authority to consider against the duties imposed on it by the Coal Industry Act 1994.

The fundamental issue is having a Coal Authority whose duty is to maintain a coal-mining industry in the UK. So, we've been calling on the UK Government to change this duty in the coal industry Act to reflect the climate emergency. So, though we were not able to intervene in this case, our policy is clear: we want to bring a managed end to the extraction and use of coal for thermal burning. We are committed to working with the fossil fuel extraction industry on the transition to business models that are sustainable for the long term and that support decarbonisation.

I thank the Counsel General.

Item 3 is next, and that's questions to the Senedd Commission. Question 1 is to be answered by Joyce Watson. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you for that question. The Senedd Commission is committed to being an accessible organisation that supports an inclusive Senedd. Staff across the Commission undertake equality impact assessments to ensure that everyone has access to the Senedd and can fully participate in all activities. For example, our new website was user tested by disabled people, and consideration is given to access issues when undertaking work on the estate, and reasonable adjustments are made for people who are blind or partially sighted.

The Commission will shortly be undertaking a public consultation on our diversity and inclusion strategy for the sixth Senedd. We will be reaching out to a range of stakeholders and we will welcome feedback on how we can make the Senedd more accessible for people who are blind or visually impaired.

Thank you for that response. Losing one's sight is an increasing problem in this country. Yesterday, RNIB Cymru staged an event—an introduction to sight loss—to encourage Members to consider how we would support and communicate with our blind and partially sighted constituents. RNIB Cymru says that 13 more people start to lose their vision every day in Wales. They also anticipate that the numbers will dramatically increase, with the number of people living with sight loss doubling by the year 2050. One of the other things that RNIB Cymru say is that the Senedd estate is particularly difficult for blind and partially sighted people to navigate. This is because of the abundance of clear glass, as well as slate floors and stairs. Bearing that in mind, would Commission representatives be willing to meet with RNIB Cymru, with the intention of committing to their 'visibility better' principles for the design of inclusive buildings? Thank you very much.

You can absolutely be sure that I will give my commitment to meet with RNIB Cymru and listen to the areas of concern and take them very much on board. The Senedd, and also the Senedd Members like you, really do want everyone, regardless of their ability or disability, to be able to access all the services in a way that they feel comfortable with. So, I would certainly be more than happy to do that, and if you want to be at that meeting as well, you're very welcome.

Question 2 is to be answered by Janet Finch-Saunders. Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you. Now, despite limited green space on our estate, the Commission has made significant improvements in recent years to encourage biodiversity, and in our carbon strategy we do commit to doubling the green space on the Senedd estate. That estate is largely tarmacked, but we have made improvements where we can, with a small garden strip extended last year, including a second pond, beehives, blossoming trees, bird boxes and bug hotels. We also maintain the land alongside the Senedd to encourage wild flowers, even though it is not ours. The gate between those two areas allows for some movement of insects and larger wildlife around the estate.

I thank the Commissioner for that response. As someone who can remember coming down the bay here when it was being redeveloped in the late 1980s and it was a quagmire of black mud, basically, I'm pleased to see that there has been improvement, not just on the Senedd estate, but across the whole bay area. But there is much more we can do. I've raised with the Welsh Government about hedgehog highways, because hedgehogs are something I show a complete—I was going to say a big interest in, or so my office tells me I show a big interest in—[Laughter.] It is important that there's a measure of the wildlife that is in the bay area, and surveys have shown that there are a greater number of hedgehogs in the bay area now, looking for habitats in particular, and I understand that the Commission are also looking at hedgehog highways and the possibility of making those hedgehog highways across the Assembly estate. But have you thought about putting habitats in place, such as hedgehog houses, so they can hibernate in those houses and people can show greater interest in the wildlife that's in the bay area? I can't believe I've asked this question, to be honest with you. [Laughter.]

Well, I'm jolly glad you have asked that question. What I can tell you, as the Commissioner for sustainable development, is that I'm very proud of Nerys and Matthew and Ed, of course, our director, for the work that they're doing behind the scenes in terms of increasing our biodiversity and conservation. After I saw your question to the Minister, it dawned on me that, really, we should be looking at hedgehog highways, and it's a fact that movement of such creatures is possible, given the gate separating the estate from the wider bay area. Further measures could also be introduced to encourage these creatures; however, we have to acknowledge that a large part of the site is a car park, so it may not be the most suitable habitat for them to explore. But we are going to be looking at hedgehog highways and hedgehog houses, I can assure the Member on that, and thank you for the question. Diolch.

Can I also say 'thank you' for the question to the Member, because it is important that we raise these issues across the estate, but also for the people of Wales, for many, I know, who have a keen interest in animal welfare, including hedgehog welfare?

Question 3 is to be answered by Joyce Watson. Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I really enjoyed that question.

I thank the Member for the question. The Senedd Commission continues to make mental health and well-being a priority. This has been well evidenced during the challenging time of the pandemic. The Commission has a long-established on-site occupational health professional and an employee assistance programme, which can provide counselling and a range of services that can be accessed 24/7. The Commission has also an established mental health network that offers peer support and guidance, weekly contact meetings and a number of trained mental health first aiders.

All services and support provided continue to be accessible both in person and online, including a bespoke mental well-being page to assist the transition to working from home and dealing with the day-to-day anxieties brought on by the pandemic, and they're also accessible to Members and staff alike.

Thank you for that comprehensive response. I know that many people—

Sorry, is it working?

I know that many people working for the Commission are working very hard to support people who need this support. Unfortunately, as you've said, the pandemic has exacerbated mental health problems for many people, and left some in crisis. The employee assistance programme has been a huge help for many, but the service is not always enough. Some call the service once, but don't follow up, while others don't call at all, because they're anxious about discussing difficult issues over the phone. I'd like to know whether the Commission could consider providing an internal counselling service to run alongside the EAP, so that staff who need specialist support for mental health issues, stress, fatigue, and even bullying, could seek specialist support immediately. Would this be something that the Commission could consider, please, not only for Members' support staff but for everyone working at our Senedd?

I hear clearly what you're saying, and I was there at the decision to set it up in this way. One of the reasons for it being set up externally rather than internally was because individuals were saying at that time that they would prefer an arm's-length counselling service, so that if they—. They felt more comfortable, is what we were being told at the time. But if evidence has changed and people feel that they're more comfortable having something internally, then of course we would look at it. But it's about the stigma. That was the reason that people preferred this being set up in the way that it has been set up, and also to recognise, in some cases, of course, that some of those allegations may be against colleagues and people working close to them. So, it might be a case of maybe mixing it a bit, but, of course, the occupational support that is on-site, I think, was designed to do that. But, as always, we're more than pleased to have conversations; I'm more than happy to have a conversation with you and others to see if we can improve it, because that's essentially what we want to do.

Question 4 is to be answered by Rhun ap Iorwerth. Jack Sargeant.

Thank you very much for the question. Encouraging engagement with committees is a very important element of the Senedd's engagement work, to ensure, of course, that the public's view is reflected in our discussions. During the pandemic, we reached new audiences through a virtual engagement programme, encompassing online focus groups and other online events, and as we move back to the post-pandemic world, we are developing plans to ensure that our online engagement work complements our traditional face-to-face engagement work, and work is ongoing now to find new ways of ensuring a wider range and diversity of people and groups that we engage with to ensure that the lived experiences of people from all parts of Wales are at the heart of our work.

Diolch yn fawr, Commissioner, for that answer. I'm grateful for the work the Commission has done during the pandemic and what it continues to do. If I may, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'll declare an interest at this point as the Chair of the Senedd Petitions Committee, and as the Chair of the Petitions Committee, I want the people of Wales to see it as their committee; they shape our agendas with their petitions and their signatures, and I want everyone to know it and consider signing or submitting a petition to our Senedd.

But, to do that, they do need to understand the areas that the committee covers and what is a matter for elsewhere. I believe we can do this by promoting the success of previous petitions we've had in our Senedd, not just in this Senedd, but, of course, in previous Senedds as well. I have an idea that I think we could use to champion this, and that includes launching a petition of the year award, led by the committee and this Senedd. Will the Commission look at supporting me with this idea and see how we can work together to launch a petition of the year award in this Senedd?

Thank you very much for that idea. Certainly, we do need always to be trying to innovate in the way that we engage with people. The Petitions Committee, of course, is a committee that is driven by that direct engagement with the people of Wales. I know that Jack, in his role as Chair of the Petitions Committee, has been involved in one particularly successful campaign recently, and as a result of the work of the social media team with Rhian Mannings, following her petition seeking assistance for families who have lost children and young people suddenly and unexpectedly, I think that there have been over 20,000 Twitter impressions, over 2,300 Facebook responses, and that shows that a petition that captures people's imaginations, with efficient and effective engagement work around it, can genuinely influence the policy-making process. So, we have an idea here of how to give a further boost to the petitions process. The idea of an award is one that deserves further consideration and is a good idea. I will ensure that there will be a conversation between Jack and the engagement team to see how we can pursue such an idea.

Question 5 is to be answered by Ken Skates, and asked by Peter Fox.

Dirprwy Lywydd, can I first of all thank Peter Fox for this question? Obviously, the question of where funds are invested is of very great interest to Members at this time, who, rightly, would not wish to see funds invested in any Russian entities. Now, clearly, the Commission has no means to influence the allocation of the Members' pension scheme assets. That power rests entirely with the pension board, which is independent of the Commission, and the decision on where to invest is based on advice that's received from the board's investment advisers and is agreed by the pension board as a whole. So, whilst the Commission are aware of the issues, it is not for the Commission itself to make a financial assessment—it's for the pension board.

I understand that the pension board have issued a statement very recently to Members regarding this matter. It can be viewed on the Members' intranet page. Questions about the Members' scheme's investments should be addressed to the pension board. I know that Mike Hedges, as a Member-nominated trustee, is very happy to answer any questions that Members may have.

Now, the second fund, being the support staff pension scheme, is run by Aviva, and decisions on the investments of support staff pensions rests with their specialist investment advisers and the support staff themselves. So, the Commission, again, is not involved in deciding how the assets are invested for that scheme either. The Commission's pensions team have been engaging with Aviva though, who have confirmed that they have very little holdings in Russia, and the situation is under constant review. The team have worked with Aviva to provide a communication for support staff addressing concerns that they may well have and, again, this can be viewed on the intranet pages.

Now, with regard to the third fund, that being the Commission staff—. The civil service pension scheme, which is the third fund, that's an unfunded scheme and, therefore, it has no assets to invest. Benefits are paid through that scheme from tax revenues rather than from assets.

Thank you, Commissioner, for that response. I think that was very helpful for Members and others watching in. As we all know, there is a wide-ranging movement across the UK and the wider world to disinvest from Russia based businesses as well as stocks and shares. Of course, in normal times, it's usual practice to use things like pension schemes to invest in foreign stocks and shares, but Russia's illegal and unnecessary invasion of Ukraine has meant that it is important to ensure that public money is not inadvertently being used to support a regime that has shown that it has no respect for democracy or the rules-based international order.

Will the Commission confirm its commitment—and I think I know the answer—to working with the pension board and other stakeholders to ensure that any investments derived from staff and Members' pension schemes are disinvested from any Russia based businesses? And could you answer: how is the Commission working with stakeholders to ensure that the relevant pension policies support responsible investments?

Could I thank Peter Fox and assure him that we will undertake to work with the pension board to ensure that all the investments are ethical investments? Obviously, the Welsh Government itself, through the economic contract it has with businesses, is driving a values-led economy, and we as Commissioners are also keen to make sure that, where we invest, we invest in businesses—primarily in Wales when we can, but businesses elsewhere as well—that have sound ethical foundations to them. There is a particular section on the intranet, the statement from the board, which states that,

'In March 2022, in line with the investment manager's fair value pricing policy, the decision was taken by the investment manager to mark this holding'—

that being that tiny Russian element of holdings—

'at zero.'

That indicates that the board are working very, very closely with Aviva's experts to ensure that no money can be invested in Russian entities. It would be absolutely wrong at this moment in time, as you say, to invest in any Russian businesses, and so Commissioners and the pension board are very alive to the need to make sure that all investments are carried out in an ethical way and invested in businesses that are ethical as well.

Thank you, all.

No topical questions have been accepted today.

We'll move on to item 5, 90-second statements. We only have one statement today, and I call on Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much. The art foundation course at Coleg Menai was established in 1981, but the fortieth anniversary celebrations are only taking place this year due to last year’s public health situation. This was the inspiration behind Owein Prendergast’s decision, as course leader, to give the exhibition the title '40+1'. The course was established in Bangor by the artist Peter Prendergast, Owein’s father, and his contemporaries. Special artworks have been created to celebrate the anniversary, and they are currently being exhibited at Storiel art gallery and Pontio. Owein curated artworks, one for each year being celebrated in the anniversary, and work by former students, lecturers and the course’s founders. The work is testament to the major contribution made by the course over the decades. Some of the most prominent names in the Welsh arts scene launched their fledgling careers here, but I won’t start naming them in case I forget someone and cause offence by omission. But everyone pays tribute to a creative, experimental, formative period that gave them the opportunity to blossom as individuals as well as artists. So, happy anniversary to Coleg Menai’s art course, and huge congratulations for reaching such an important milestone. Long may the course make such a profound contribution to our nation’s visual arts.

Item 6 is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, marine planning in Wales. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The historic absence of marine spatial planning and an isolated approach to managing our seas means that we now face unco-ordinated scrambles for space and increasing delays for industry. As we urgently need to move away from Russian hydrocarbons following Putin's illegal invasion, we must have the best legislation possible, which champions marine energy projects and greater energy security whilst keeping the nature and climate crisis at heart. This proposal would do just that.

So, why should this Parliament, the Welsh Parliament, legislate on marine planning? Well, the recent Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report on the draft budget highlighted our finding that there is concern about barriers to renewable offshore energy generation in Wales, including a paucity in the marine environmental evidence base, and complexity that bring delays in the consenting and licensing process. There are widespread concerns about NRW's ability to effectively carry out its roles and responsibilities, including monitoring and assessing the condition of marine sites while supporting marine planning, and that whilst a review to streamline the consenting process is to be welcomed, there is still a severe lack of a robust evidence base to underpin development decisions, and there are consequently inherent risks in ramping up development. This is certainly what we do not want to be hearing at a time when the UK Government has rightly set an ambitious target to deliver 40 GW of offshore wind by 2030. There are approximately 4 GW of upcoming additional offshore wind developments in north Wales, and the Crown Estate is pursuing plans for floating wind in the Celtic sea. The Welsh Government has already failed to meet the deadline to achieve or even maintain good environmental status, GES, of marine waters. Marine biodiversity is declining. In fact, according to the second 'State of Natural Resources Report', only 46 per cent of the marine protected area network features are in favourable condition. The lack of true spatial planning to guide the sustainable use of our seas hinders GES and threatens the upscaling of offshore wind.

Whilst I acknowledge the commitment in the renewable energy deep dive, and I thank the Deputy Minister for doing this, to work with NRW and key stakeholders to identify marine strategic resource areas by 2023, this was to provide guidance to signpost appropriate and inappropriate areas for development. But that is only guidance. We now need to create a legal duty to create a national marine development plan, one that is relevant to Wales, and to keep it under regular review. As the RSPB have stated, the lack of robust statutory weighted development control and spatial policies to steer developments away from environmentally sensitive areas from the outset does create uncertainty for all parties, and inevitably leads to conflict at the application stage.

Baroness Brown of Cambridge endorsed spatial planning, stating:

'I think sea bed planning in order to make sure that we can enable these activities to coexist without...urbanising the sea bed, is hugely important.'

Many Members work with the Marine Conservation Society, and they have stated that they are wary of a piecemeal approach that, when coupled with a significant ramping up of development proposals, is a recipe for unforeseen, cumulative and in-combination impacts. Strategic resource areas need to sit firmly within a holistic marine spatial plan, as is highlighted in the report on the Welsh Government's own marine policies. Environmental stakeholders called for a cross-sector statutory spatial plan that addresses the cumulative impacts of marine development. So, let's ask ourselves: how can it be right that, whilst planning on land has 'Future Wales', 'Planning Policy Wales' and local development plans to guide development, at present, there is no similar system for what happens in our seas—and, I would just add, the great expanse of our seas? This is despite Welsh territorial seas covering some 32,000 sq km.

Janet, will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

I don't know which screen to look at. You're twice in front of me, Janet. Many thanks for bringing this debate; I think it's a very important one. One of the things I'm not clear on, and I wonder if you can help, or perhaps the Minister can afterwards, is whether we need new legislation or if the existing marine planning and marine and coastal legislation allows us to put a marine plan on a statutory footing without a new law. Have you got any clarity on that? If not, could you add to your contribution that request to the Minister: can we just get on with it and do it now, or do we need a new piece of law?

Thank you, Huw. It's fair to say I really appreciate working with you on the committee that we're on. As for whether it needs to be a new piece of law or whether we can adapt, currently a lot of the measures are just guidance, Huw. So, consequentially, what we're looking for is to ensure that that legislation covers some of the things I've said, and there are going to be a lot more yet. It has to be covered by legislation. I don't know whether the Deputy Minister or Minister can advise us today whether that needs to be new legislation, but we definitely need this marine spatial plan to be in law, rather than just guidance.

The consequence is that, for example, the Crown Estate leads the process by way of individual rounds of sea bed lease deployments. In fact, in carbon budget 2, you more or less admit that you are letting the Crown Estate lead, stating that you are collaborating to understand spatial opportunities for offshore wind, including floating wind developments. Rather than the recent focus that's been on devolving the Crown Estate, we should be prioritising the climate and nature crisis by developing a national marine development plan, and one that is covered by legislation.

We also need to create a Welsh sea bird recovery strategy. The UK Government and Scottish Government have both committed to address the threats and pressures on sea birds, yet, again, we're still waiting here, and this is despite the fact that there has been a severe decline in Wales's breeding kittiwakes, 35 per cent since 1986. In fact, Dr Catharine Horswill stated recently:

'We need to tighten up assessments to make sure that potential impacts to already struggling wildlife, such as the kittiwake, are better understood.'

Similarly, Lisa Morgan of the Wildlife Trust of South and West Wales has stated that the location, scale and type of marine renewable energy schemes should be determined by proper environmental assessments. I honestly cannot see how anybody could argue with that. Even our fishermen and the aquaculture sector have highlighted an urgent need to take action in relation to windfarms.

Janet, you've used up your time. I'm going to give you extra time as there was an intervention, but you have got very little time left to close, if you don't close the first part now.

Okay. As our climate change committee recently heard, the marine plan is not fit for purpose in the context of the anticipated step change in development. I ask this Senedd to let that process of shaping our seas continue in a way that benefits the climate and our nature crisis by supporting this legislative proposal today. Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you, Janet, for tabling this debate. As a Member who represents a sizeable stretch of our coastline, I like to remind people that Welsh seas are more than a third larger than the Welsh land mass. So, marine planning is critical to many policies and priorities, from climate change to biodiversity, economic development to energy security. As a member of the Senedd committee that recently reported on the Welsh Government's marine policies, I have looked at how these competing and overlapping demands are being managed and balanced.

Ever since we reported, which was last month, the scales have significantly tipped. The war in Ukraine has put energy security and curbing fossil fuel imports at the top of the agenda. The Welsh Government was, of course, already committed to decreasing carbon emissions by 95 per cent by 2050. The sanctions against Russia highlight why that is a national security as well as a climate security issue. We will hear a lot more about electricity generation from offshore wind, wave and tidal currents coming in the weeks and months ahead.

Wales, of course, is best placed—literally, geographically—to generate these sustainable forms of energy. In west Wales, we have the Pembrokeshire demonstration zone and Wave Hub. Like the other energy-generation zones, it leases its right to use the sea bed from the Crown Estate, which Janet has just mentioned. And if devolving the estate can help us meet our aspiration to be a world leader in renewable energy, we must, of course, pursue that. But we must also ensure we have a robust plan to site and develop these technologies sensitively and appropriately to mitigate and minimise impacts on marine ecosystems and blue carbon stores. I agree with Janet on that.

I mention blue carbon because as well as the ecologically sensitive areas and vulnerable habitats and species that the motion lists, we must also consider blue carbon habitats and stores, sequestration and restoration. At least 113 million tonnes of carbon are stored in Welsh marine habitats, nearly 10 years' worth of Welsh carbon emissions. So, they're critical to achieving our climate change goals. NRW is due to publish a report documenting the carbon sequestration potential for the existing marine protected areas soon, and I look forward to reading that.

Welsh Labour has a manifesto commitment to restore coastal habitat restoration. We could extend that to include both blue carbon and ecologically significant habitats in the Welsh sea area. Going forward, the overarching aim should be to protect, restore and enhance blue carbon habitats, like seagrass meadow, at every opportunity.

I'd like to thank the Member for Aberconwy for giving me the opportunity to speak in her debate this afternoon. Fellow Members may be well aware of my affinity for the Atlantic grey seal. Indeed, the family home is even named after one. As its species champion here in the Senedd, I am incredibly grateful to represent, and be the voice of, such a magnificent creature, which calls the waters off our Welsh coast home.

For those that don't know, over half the world's populations of Atlantic grey seals can be found surfing the waves of the British isles, from the coast of Amroth and the isle of Skomer, to the Orkney islands in the far north of Scotland. It's no coincidence that these beautiful creatures also choose to reside in the most beautiful of places—of course, the coast of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire being their favourite location.

However, each of these locations also offers us valuable resources in our search for cleaner, greener renewable energy. In my own constituency is the fantastic Blue Gem Wind project, an offshore floating wind farm that is developing a new generation of energy in our Celtic sea. Having had the opportunity to visit Blue Gem and learned the benefits that it can bring in terms of both renewable energy and economic prosperity, it truly is a fantastic asset to not only Pembrokeshire but Wales as a whole.

As this motion rightly highlights, our drive for marine renewables must be considered against the backdrop of all of our existing marine commitments, including fisheries, aquaculture, shipping, navigational channels and, of course, biodiversity and marine animal protection. Indeed, this is what Blue Gem has done so successfully. They developed a plan-led approach to site selection, driven by technical and environmental considerations, with the overarching objective of identifying a viable site while minimising the impact on the environment and marine life.

Before making the decision to develop the Pembrokeshire site, a host of factors were considered, including bathymetry, the measurement of the depth of water; wind resource; proximity to nature; conservation designations; sea birds; marine mammals; fisheries; shipping; and proximity to ports—a whole host of options. This is an example of how it is to be done correctly, a process that any future marine development should replicate. But, as the Member for Aberconwy rightly pointed out, this is only guidance at present, and it does need to be added to the legislative statute here in Wales. The Member also mentioned the RSPB, which has said that we have one chance to ensure that we deliver marine renewables at a pace and quantum that allows us to meet our environmental targets, both climate and nature. Indeed, the two do go hand in hand.

Thank you for the motion in front of us today to the Member for Aberconwy. I see value in considering how we could draw together the different elements with regard to planning related to the marine environment, even though, like the Member for Ogmore, I'm not entirely sure that we need to take that further step for legislation. I do think that we need to consider that and see how we can press further on this, as it is important.

There are elements of the motion in front of us that I believe I would have put in a slightly different way. It talks about sea birds and wind farms and so on, but perhaps what we need to do is to set it out more widely than that. There is more to sea life than birds, and there is more to energy plans than wind farms offshore. But, despite that, there are important principles here. What we need, of course, is to strike the correct balance between use and exploiting our marine resources and having a sufficiently robust level of conservation too.

The Morlais scheme, off the coast of my constituency, is a very good example of what we're trying to achieve. It's an innovative scheme, to develop tidal energy technologies, with the aim of facilitating experimentation in that area through facilitating the consent process for individual developers, and it's very clear at the same time in terms of its conservation duties, and does that, of course, as a social enterprise, which is very important. But it has been a far longer process than it should have been. And if we can have legislation that assists in that regard, then do let us look at that. I know that the Government, the Minister and the Deputy Minister, are supportive of that scheme—and I'm grateful for that—but we need to make it clear that the processes of Natural Resources Wales, for example, work constructively and effectively with schemes such as Morlais, in order to achieve them in a way, yes, that caters for our natural environment.

May I refer to one clause in this motion—that we need to be very aware of the cumulative effect of schemes? That concerns me particularly with regard to solar developments on Anglesey—offshore and on land. And I have a direct question to the Minister: does the Minister agree that planning decisions with regard to the Welsh environment should look at the cumulative impact of the large numbers of solar applications on Môn, before we reach the point, inevitably, where there will be that negative cumulative impact? The principle, as I say, is the same, with regard to on-land or offshore developments.

To conclude, I'm surprised that the Member for Aberconwy continues to oppose the devolution of the Crown Estate. Wouldn't that encourage better use and more innovative use of the seas around us, and would encourage accountability? But to summarise, we need a vision, we need a plan, we need a clear action plan. And if a new legislative framework would help in that regard, then do let us bear that in mind.

Can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for this debate as well? And I want to stand up, just as Samuel Kurtz did, for my species. I am the species champion for the pink sea fan—another name for it is the warty gorgonian, but I much prefer pink sea fan. They are a type of coral, and they don't have to be pink—they can be orange or they can be white. Most pink sea fans can grow to a height of around 25 cm, although some to 50 cm, and some to 1m, and it takes them a year to grow 1 cm. The pink sea fan is nationally scarce and globally vulnerable, and is protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. It's a priority species under the UK post-2010 biodiversity framework, and a feature of conservation importance, for which the marine conservation zones can be designated.

The condition, as we've heard, of our marine areas, and the health of our marine wildlife, is deteriorating, and it is essential that we do all we can to protect and enhance marine wildlife. That, of course, has to be balanced with our plans to expand our tidal energy, and the need for that is greater now than it's ever been. So, I would actually take issue with the Conservatives in relation to the lack of funding for the Swansea tidal lagoon, because that would have given us such an opportunity to expand our tidal energy. But I do support the intention here to ensure that the necessary funding, planning, training and regulation is in place so we can protect, not only the pink sea fan, but many other species of wildlife, habitats and those other species that are at risk. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to respond to the debate this afternoon.

It's an important debate, and it's centred on the importance of planning for development, while protecting and restoring our marine environment. And the Government is very supportive of this sentiment, and, as noted by the committee, urgent action is needed to achieve net zero, while also cherishing our seas and marine biodiversity. Indeed, many of the areas with the greatest potential for exploitation of marine energy are also some of our most sensitive sites for marine life. So, we do have to strike a careful balance.

And that's why we've put in place the first Welsh marine plan, which we will be reviewing in the autumn, and it will be reviewed every three years, and the Government will report on its finding to the Senedd. So, the Welsh Government already has extensive and progressive marine planning powers granted through the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, as Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned, and we've used these powers to introduce our marine plan. So, we don't feel that any more powers are needed. Our focus is on the implementation of the plan as we develop marine planning.

But, of course, technology has developed since the plan was introduced in 2019, and we recognise we can and must do more. And our priority is to provide greater direction for development through the marine plan, and this includes improving our understanding of opportunities for development, and environmental sensitivities must and will be taken into account. In January we published our first locational guidance, and this guidance signposts towards areas with potential for development, and helps developers understand environmental sensitivities. It's supported by interactive mapping on the marine planning portal. The motion mentions developing strategic resource areas, or SRAs, and I'm pleased to tell Members that work is already under way on SRAs. Indeed, the first stakeholder event was held yesterday. These strategic resource areas will help us understand which areas have potential for sustainable development, including for renewable energy. Now, these areas will be safeguarded through our marine planning system. So, to be clear, all development, including strategic resource areas, will have to satisfy robust environmental regulations before consent is granted.

The urgency of addressing climate change is clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, and the deep dive into renewable energy that we conducted just before Christmas reaffirmed our commitment to developing sustainable renewable energy generation and blasting through any barriers that stood in its way. We are clear that marine energy, including offshore wind, forms a vital part of our future energy mix. The motion also calls for offshore wind farms to include environmental enhancements. Not only does the marine plan require developers to consider the sensitivity of marine ecosystems, it also encourages developers to contribute to the restoration and enhancement of the marine environment. One of the actions flowing from the deep dive was an end-to-end review of the marine licensing system, which we're just beginning work on. This review aims to identity opportunities for positive outcomes for both renewable energy and marine biodiversity. But we do recognise more needs to be done to protect our sea birds and improve their status, and we are working with partners, including Natural Resources Wales and the RSPB, to produce a Welsh sea bird conservation strategy. The strategy will assess the vulnerability of sea bird species and identify actions to support their conservation.

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank the Members that have contributed and the Deputy Minister, despite his negativity on this, but there we go. I'd like to just reiterate Joyce Watson's comments about our Welsh seas are far much larger than our land mass, the risk and the benefits of a blue carbon sequestration, and the other merits really, and, in particular, I think, her comments about Ukraine, and the impact of the war on Ukraine and the need for us to really now look at locally produced renewable energy.

I congratulate Samuel Kurtz on being the champion for the Atlantic grey seal. I'm the champion for the harbour porpoise. But, as regards the Atlantic grey seals, we have them here in Pigeon Cove on the Great Orme, and we also have them in Penrhyn Bay. We—. Sorry. Jane Dodds mentioning the pink sea fan and about nationally scarce and vulnerable, and also the need to expand tidal energy, and I think that's a given—. Rhun makes an important contribution about the important principles and exploiting resources from our marine sea beds, whilst making sure that the conservation duties are adhered to. And I'm glad that you mentioned Morlais, Rhun, because I think that is a really innovative project.

The Deputy Minister mentioned about the Welsh marine plan, but, as we've seen, whilst we're sat here—well, I'm sat here—talking about it, these species are going in decline, we are losing biodiversity and marine conservation does need protecting. By putting this into legislation we have a chance, really, of protecting our seas and our species, whilst, at the same time, encouraging developers to come in and extract renewable energy sources from that. I firmly believe that this does need to be in law, because we've had years now of us going nowhere on this. So, I'll leave it at that for now, but thank you to everybody for listening and for everyone's contributions. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the armed forces, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

One of the presents my wife gave me last Christmas was a book telling the real story of a family entwined in the second world war. This included the following lines: 'Like many returning service personnel, he struggled for years with disabilities and other repercussions that went unrecognised and untreated. Instead, they were encouraged to pick up the reins of family life, get a job, forget the past and look to the future. Even more debilitating than the constant physical pain were the nightmares, reliving the torment and terrors so vividly that he would shout and throw up his arms in an effort to defend himself and awake screaming and flailing in terror. But there was no recognition or treatment then for such mental scars. Post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, became officially recognised in 1992, too late for many.'

Speaking personally, I grew up amongst that stoic generation. They were our schoolteachers and shopkeepers, local businesspeople and local service providers, family friends and family members. At least they had the unspoken support and understanding of people in their local communities, most of whom had also experienced war in some way. Of course, this was not the case for the generations that followed.

Our motion today therefore calls on this Welsh Parliament to recognise the service and sacrifice of people from Wales in the UK armed forces and to express gratitude to current and former armed forces personnel for their contribution to Welsh society. The armed forces covenant refers to the mutual obligations between the UK nations and our armed forces. I led a short debate here in January 2008, supporting the Royal British Legion's Honour the Covenant campaign, concluding that this must be fought until it is won, and welcomed the publication of the armed forces covenant in May 2011, introducing a statutory duty from 2012 to lay before UK Parliament an annual report that considers the effects of service on regulars and reservists, veterans, their families and the bereaved, and to also examine areas of potential disadvantage and the need for special provision where appropriate.

The Welsh Government and all local authorities in Wales signed the covenant and subscribed to work with partner organisations to uphold its principles. However, although all 22 local authorities have in place an armed forces community covenant, requiring them to have elected member armed forces champions, more is needed. Despite the stated commitment of local authorities and the Welsh NHS to deliver as many tailored services as they can to the armed forces, my casework, and no doubt that of other Members, provides evidence that this does not go far enough.

Speaking here in December 2017, I stated:

'The UK Government's 2017 response to the Defence Select Committee report, which followed the 2016 armed forces covenant annual report, commented on progress in Wales.'

The quote continues:

'In spite of this, however, there has not yet been an independent review of progress and delivery across Wales since the establishment of the covenant.'

Speaking here in November 2018, I again noted that there had not been an independent review of progress and delivery across the whole of Wales since the covenant was established. Hence, our motion today calls on this Welsh Parliament to state that the Welsh Government's armed forces covenant annual reports should be considered by an appropriate Senedd committee, a parliamentary committee, to ensure that ex-forces personnel and their families in Wales are being properly supported.

Colonel Phillips will report directly to the Secretary of State for Wales, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the UK Minister for Defence People and Veterans. As the Secretary of State for Wales said:

'The Armed Forces have a long and important tradition in Wales and we are exceptionally proud of our Welsh veterans. Our ex-servicemen and women and their families deserve recognition, support and respect throughout the duration of their service and beyond.'

The appointment of a Veterans' Commissioner for Wales will increase and co-ordinate the support available, and highlights the UK Government's commitment to the welfare of the men and women who serve our armed forces. I stated:

'This new role will help ensure that no veteran will be left without appropriate support, and we wish Colonel Phillips all the best in his new job and look forward to working with him',

adding it is vital that the Labour Welsh Government Ministers

'work hand-in-hand with the commissioner as many of the services our Armed Forces community rely on are devolved to Wales.'

I was therefore also pleased to read the statement by the Welsh Government Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, Hannah Blythyn—I'm pleased to see her in the Chamber—that,

'Wales provides a wide range of support for veterans...and we are committed to working with stakeholders to supporting all those who have served.'

She also said that:

'The Veterans’ Commissioner for Wales is a UK Government appointment. We look forward to working with Colonel James Phillips as part of our commitment to veterans across Wales.'

I therefore hope that the Welsh Government will support our motion today, which also asks this Welsh Parliament to welcome the appointment of Colonel James Phillips as the first Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, and to call on the Welsh Government to work with the veterans' commissioner and the UK Government to ensure that the armed forces covenant is upheld in Wales.

The Welsh Government's covenant annual report for 2020 described two main achievements: an established funding provision for Veterans' NHS Wales, which enables veterans with mental health issues to receive appropriate support, and funding the armed forces liaison officers until 2023 to embed covenant guidelines in local authorities across Wales.

Although the armed forces expert group welcomed the report, it submitted eight key priorities for the Welsh Government to address in this Senedd term, including developing a national plan to implement changes from the Armed Forces Act 2011, committing to permanently fund the supporting service children in education Wales fund, and extending housing priority to cover five years post leaving military service. The veterans' commissioner can play a key role in areas such as these.

I call on Alun Davies.

I'm grateful to you, acting Presiding Officer; I'm grateful to Mark Isherwood as well for the way in which he has opened this debate. There is much of his contribution where I would agree with him. I think we all will share the same sense of service to this country and to our people. So, I think we will all recognise the sacrifices of the generation that he himself described in his opening remarks. And I think we all share that responsibility, then, to sometimes put aside some political differences in order to deliver the sorts of services that veterans need and require, and also to support existing personnel and their families.

I actually think that the Welsh Government has moved in a considerable direction over the years in order to deliver that, and I have to say, I think the Welsh Government does have, at the moment, in place significant support structures that are delivering for veterans and their families as well as serving personnel. I think there are things that the Government can do to improve its delivery and its performance, but I also think that we should recognise where the Government has got things right, and sometimes in our remarks, we don't always do that. I hope that, this afternoon, we will again be able to reach that same point of agreement across the Chamber.

Can I say I listened, smiling, listening to Mark quoting his own speeches and actually some of mine, back from the years? Because I was the Minister, of course, who rejected the proposal from Darren Millar and the cross-party group on establishing a commission, and I did it for very good reasons, and I'll outline some of those perhaps this afternoon.

The focus for me and the focus for everybody within the armed forces community in its widest sense has always been on the delivery of services and the delivery of services to people in need. Darren Millar and I, as chair and vice-chair of the cross-party group, work together to ensure that the Welsh Government continue supporting the armed forces liaison officers located in local government and accountable within local communities to ensure that services were delivered. And I was glad to see the Welsh Government, last year, delivering continued funding for that to the WLGA, so that those liaison officers can continue to work with local services, local veterans and the local armed forces community to ensure that the services are delivered in the way that they should be, and I very much welcome that.

I will welcome the appointment of the commissioner, but I don't think this is the right role; I'll be absolutely clear with Members on that. Some Members will be familiar with my contributions on other matters. I'm not convinced that the model of appointed commissioners is particularly good for democracy. I think that this place and the committees of this place have done more to hold Ministers and others to account in terms of children's services and services for older people than either of those two commissioners over the years, if I'm quite clear with Members. There is nothing to prevent a committee of this place undertaking a review and an investigation into the delivery of services to the armed forces community or for the armed forces community. So, the democracy is there and in place, and can work, and, I believe, does work. I don't believe that appointing a commissioner accountable to a Government is the way that you increase accountability. Government should be accountable to us and not the other way round. You don't create accountability by appointing somebody to hold you to account. That's not how democracy or accountability work and certainly it's not what I would ever support. I believe that accountability should happen here. It should happen here in this place, with those of us who are elected holding Ministers and others to account for the delivery of services. That's the democratic model. It's one I support and agree with.

I'm delighted to be able to participate in this debate this afternoon. Wales has a long history of providing personnel to the UK armed forces. In many Welsh families, there will be some link with the armed forces, either through relatives or friends, particularly in the Valleys in my region of South Wales East.

That is because Wales provides a disproportionately high number of personnel to the armed forces. Many leave an operational service to return to Wales every year in a bid to make the transition to civilian life. A combination of discipline, good skills and excellent work ethic mean that they are well placed to contribute to the economy. Unfortunately, many will struggle as a result of PTSD and other health issues picked up during their service in the military. Veterans may have health needs, difficulties in accessing housing, and a small number may end in the criminal justice system.

Many veterans will have seen active service over the past couple of decades due to the UK becoming more involved in longer term conflicts and wars of attrition. This has meant rest periods between active service have become shorter, and there has been an increase in stress and pressure on service personnel due to the nature of the tasks performed in those conflicts. A study of 10,000 serving armed forces personnel—23 per cent of whom were reservists—found that 4 per cent reported probable post-traumatic stress disorder, 19.7 per cent reported other common mental disorders, and 13 per cent reported alcohol misuse. Having asked service personnel to put themselves in the line of fire and, effectively, put their lives on the line, we owe it to them to make sure that they have what they need in order to return to normality when they leave the forces.

In the past, veterans were often neglected. This was something that was highlighted by the Westminster cross-party group on veterans, established by the then Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn Llwyd. They published a series of recommendations more than 10 years ago, and some of those are now in force. So, while things have improved, there is still work to be done. I look forward to seeing the positive impact that Colonel James Phillips will make as the first Veterans' Commissioner for Wales. We owe it to the men and women leaving the armed forces to support them when they come back to their communities. We owe the communities they come back to the support needed to make the most of the valuable skills armed forces personnel possess. And we owe the world a duty to pursue the path of peace at every opportunity. Diolch.

Our country has a proud military history that forms so much of our modern-day cultures and traditions. Our armed forces are the best in the world and have been involved in some of the most infamous conflicts and peace missions across the globe to protect Britain's interests at both home and abroad. I am proud of our nation's history and the role our armed forces play. I have had family and friends who served, fought and died for our country, and I'll forever be thankful for their service and everyone else who has the honour and the bravery to serve our great country.

My constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire is home to the British army in Wales, and I'm extremely proud to represent them here in the Senedd. My constituency and my residents have an honourable and proud military tradition. Our Brecon barracks was first built in 1805, and the under the Cardwell reforms, the barracks expanded to become the home of two battalions. The troops from this barracks will forever live in our nation's memory through their bravery at Rorke's Drift during the Anglo-Zulu war.

My constituency still plays a vital role as the home of the world's finest infantry battle school at Dering Lines army camp and the army camp in Sennybridge, training troops from across the globe to go into conflict zones to protect innocent people. I know that Members from across this Chamber here today recently visited the army camps to see the training that our servicemen and women undertake. It was also great to note that the Ministry of Defence has recently announced that the barracks will continue to play a vital role within our military infrastructure and will be used by the British army for decades to come.

Servicemen and women serve their country with distinction, and they experience some things that we in this Chamber just simply could not comprehend. This leaves many of them suffering from the negative effects of war. There are about 250,000 veterans in Wales, and it is estimated that 4 per cent of the veterans will suffer from some kind of mental health issue, often as a result of experiencing combat zones.

I am very thankful and pleased that both the UK and Welsh Governments have worked together and have announced a new Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, Colonel James Phillips, who is based in Pembrokeshire. I would like to pay tribute and thank the Deputy Minister for her openness in working with me to help deliver this vital post.

With that in mind, I do believe that it is now time for the UK Government to seriously look at increasing the number of servicemen and women in our armed forces. Our troop numbers are vital for global peace and helping to maintain democracy across the globe. Our armed forces are diversifying with new methods of military technology due to the changing nature of warfare, and I personally believe that the UK Government should increase spending on and investment in our military personnel and infrastructure. Global Britain has a vital role to play, and I, for one, believe that our military has a bright future ahead. We should all in this Chamber be eternally grateful for the security and peace that our military provide to our families and to our great country.

I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling today's motion. Each day is a learning day, because I found out that Alun Davies was in Government, and I associate with the former Minister's comments earlier in his contribution with regard to scrutiny by this Senedd and the committee work it should be doing. Every day might be a learning day, but it's also different, because I find myself surprised at agreeing, mostly, with Mark Isherwood this afternoon in his opening remarks and what he said.

But this is a subject area that is at the forefront of all of our minds at the moment, as those brave women and men of the armed forces keep us safe. Acting Presiding Officer, I would like to take this opportunity to specifically highlight the role that our armed forces have played throughout the coronavirus pandemic. To say that they've gone above and beyond does not fully capture the difference they have made, and we all owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

As I said, I agree with the former Minister's comments on the role that the Senedd can play and the committee work that it needs to do, and I would wish to see that happening. But I do welcome the role of the veterans' commissioner and I would also be grateful for the opportunity to meet with Colonel James Phillips to talk about veterans in my own constituency of Alyn and Deeside and to hear his views on how this Senedd can best support them.

Acting Presiding Officer, I'm proud to be an honorary member of the Shotton and Deeside branch of the Royal Welch Fusiliers Comrades Association. Last weekend, I was pleased to speak with representatives from Labour Friends of the Forces during the Welsh Labour conference in Llandudno—an excellent conference, if I might add. And I would like to pay tribute to the Labour Friends of the Forces and the work they do to enrich that link between Labour members and our armed forces, and I will certainly be joining them as a friend and member.

Acting Presiding Officer, in closing, I just wish to conclude that, every year, on Remembrance Day, we quite rightly stop and we quite rightly pause to remember those who have sacrificed so much to preserve the freedoms we cherish. But throughout the year, as Members of this Senedd, of this Welsh Parliament, we should have those who serve and those who have served in our minds as we go about our daily responsibilities. That is a commitment I will make today. I will continue to do all I can to champion our veterans and our armed forces, like Darren Millar, like Alun Davies, like James Evans, and like everyone who has spoken in this debate. I ask colleagues from across the Chamber, each and every single one of you, to join me and make that commitment today. Diolch yn fawr.

It's a great honour to take part in this debate this afternoon and to give my thanks to our servicemen and women, past, present and future, for their incredible sacrifices that allow me and all of us to stand here today. Because, make no mistake, without our armed forces, there would be no democracy. We would not be debating our support for our armed forces; we'd be under the yoke of some dictator or another. You only have to turn to the news to see how fragile our democracy is. The hell Putin is unleashing on the poor people of Ukraine could possibly be our future, if not for the service of the brave men and women in our armed forces, men and women who are prepared to put their lives on the line to protect our freedoms. As Winston Churchill once said,

'Never was so much owed by so many to so few.'

That is as true today as it was back in 1940. But, sadly, we tend to forget that debt. We go on with our daily lives, ignoring the plight of our service personnel and our veterans, allowing our defence budgets to be cut to the bone, supplying our troops with inadequate equipment, because of the false belief that the world is at peace and armed forces are an anachronism of a bygone era. We ignored Putin's expansionism, stood idle as troops levelled Grozny, invaded Georgia, annexed parts of Ukraine in 2014, shot down a passenger jet, and continued killing civilians in Donbas. And now, Putin is hell-bent on restoring the USSR.

Today his sights are on Kyiv, but what about tomorrow? Is Chisinau in Moldova next? What about Tallinn? We don't know, which is why brave Welsh men and women are on the Estonian border, forming a red line against Putin's expansionism, hoping, like the rest of us, for a peaceful resolution, but prepared to put their lives on the line to protect our freedoms. We must acknowledge their service and ensure that our debt is repaid with interest. Far too often we have failed our veterans, which is why I believe the appointment of a veterans' commissioner marks a turning point. I hope the appointment of Colonel James Phillips will put a stop to the disregard of the armed forces covenant, put a stop to our veterans becoming homeless, ending up in prison or on psychiatric wards. We rely upon our service personnel in times of conflict and strife. They should be able to rely upon us when they have put down their weapons for the last time. We have to provide priority housing, education and welfare, and make their transition into civilian life as seamless and as painless as possible. We owe them this at the very least.

I hope Members will support our motion and send a clear message that this democratic institution stands firmly behind our defenders of democracy. Diolch.

Thank you for the opportunity to take part in this debate. I have to confess that I find debates on veterans and the armed forces difficult, not because I am a pacifist, but because of my own experiences with members of my family who served and who suffered horrors that I cannot comprehend whilst serving, but then, having served, those members of my family being neglected by the state entirely. And I'm afraid that the same pattern is being seen time and time again. It appears that the rates of suicide amongst veterans are increasing. Alcohol abuse is rife, and the lack of mental health support is a disgrace.

I would like to focus on one element in particular, namely homelessness amongst veterans. I visited a young family in my constituency this week. There were lively and adorable young children in the household, with one parent working in the health sector and the other parent a veteran who had served in Afghanistan and is now suffering from PTSD. This wonderful family was homeless and was having to live with the grandmother in an overcrowded home. Unfortunately, this is far too common a story. It's shameful that a state expects its young people to go out to face untold horrors, but then neglects them once they’ve left the armed forces. Veterans face huge challenges as they come to terms with their experiences, and the very least that could be expected is that they should have a roof over their heads when they return to what people call 'civvy street'. I look forward to seeing the new commissioner, therefore, making this issue a priority. Thank you very much.

My grandfather served in the first world war, and he was serving in all the worst places with the highest numbers of casualties. He was in the Royal Artillery, which was, obviously, bringing the guns up to the front with the use of horses, which illustrates how it is very important that the military has to change in line with new technology; we cannot be fighting wars with horses any longer. He never got the mental health support that he needed. He had at least two mental breakdowns during the war, and, after the war, he still didn't get the support he needed. In the end, I'm afraid to say, he committed suicide, much to the, obviously, loss of my grandmother and my mother.

I just wanted to talk about the relevance of the military today in the current situation we face with war in Europe, because there is a role that I think the military can and should be playing to assist all those countries surrounding Ukraine who are struggling to deal with so many people having fled the military war. There has been an outpouring of generosity from Welsh people to Ukrainian families; £25 million has been donated already to the Disasters Emergency Committee, which has been matched by the UK Government, and the UK Government is also providing medical supplies. But a lot of the donations in kind are coming from the voluntary sector.

It's difficult for us to comprehend that Poland is now providing a safe refuge to 1.5 million people who are absolutely destitute. They've just fled with what they can carry, and as it's geographically closer than the numbers who've taken refuge in Romania, Slovakia and Moldova, I think we need to concentrate on trying to assist the people of Poland to relieve some of the stress on them, because the mayor of Warsaw clearly has appealed to other countries to share the heavy lifting required to provide appropriate accommodation for traumatised children and families and the elderly. I really do think that it is quite shameful that we in this country have only offered 4,000 visas to enable people to come to Britain, and that's without even discussing how they're going to get here. Literally, people have left with nothing.

We know that some 7,000 households in Wales have already openly offered to host families fleeing from the war, but even when the Home Office gets round to giving them visas, how are these people supposed to get here? It isn't good enough, and I'm sure the British public doesn't want us to go on being bystanders to this tragedy. So, there really is a role for the British military to play in speeding up the process, and enabling people to arrive. It's one thing for Rhys Jones and his friends to drive from Conwy to Ukraine. These are farmers, people who know how to fix their vehicles when they break down and are perfectly competent at getting to difficult places, but most of the people in my constituency who I know have offered their homes are simply not in that situation. These are people who, if they break down in a car, would rely on emergency roadside assistance, and that simply is laughable, isn't it, in the context of going to Poland to bring back people so that they can have a place of safety here in Wales.

And finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. I'd first like to declare that I'm still a county councillor on Monmouthshire County Council. I want to thank Darren Millar for tabling today's debate. Being from a family with a history of serving in the armed forces, it's a great chance to join my colleagues and, I hope, many others across the Chamber in welcoming our first ever Veterans' Commissioner for Wales, Colonel James Phillips, and also to recognise the enormous contribution our veterans have made and continue to make in Wales.

Our new commissioner is a man who recently left the army after serving 33 years, as my colleague has outlined, including in Iraq, Afghanistan, Northern Ireland and the Balkans. With his vast experience in the armed forces, I'm sure he will bring knowledge, experience and understanding to some of the specific issues that veterans face and represent their needs to the fullest. I've been proud to serve on a council in Monmouthshire that signed up to the armed forces community covenant scheme as part of the Conservative UK Government 2011 initiative to promote a greater understanding between the military and the general public. During my time there as councillor on Monmouthshire County Council, I was honoured to be its armed forces champion. In my region of Gwent, all five local authorities have achieved gold now on the defence employer recognition scheme, and all five have offered the guaranteed interview scheme for the armed forces community, including Monmouthshire. This scheme is a great way to thank and recognise the work that the local authorities do, and for the innovative and thorough ways that they now incorporate veterans in everything that they do now going forward.

It is not just for veterans that we see much-needed support now being given, but thanks to SSCE, Supporting Service Children in Education in Wales, who work hard to co-ordinate research and compile evidence on the experiences of service children in education to ensure their needs are well understood, we see this service benefiting children of serving personnel. However, the lack of data that we have on service children in Wales is actually very worrying, and the absolute need to compound this evidence is so necessary so that we can support those families with service children far better than we do already. We need to know where they are and to pick out where their families are to give them the support that they need. So, it is vital and I hope that our new commissioner will look to address this and ensure that there is up-to-date data on PLASC going forward, which is the place that it needs to be. This will not only benefit veterans, as I've said, but also the children of serving personnel.

The liaison officers, like the incredible Lisa Rawlings in my own Gwent region, play such a vital role in Wales, and I really hope to see their contracts extended or made permanent, to work alongside the veterans' commissioner, as I think that will be an instantly productive team to get the very best for veterans where information can flow both ways. The liaison officers have been pivotal in creating hubs and doing many, many things to help veterans, as was outlined just now by the Member for Meirionnydd. The veterans hub in Caerphilly, run by Kelly Farr and Lisa Rawlings, is having evidenced positive outcomes and is truly a one-stop shop for veterans—similarly in Newport and across many other areas in Wales. Fantastically, we're now seeing one in Monmouthshire as well. These hubs are great examples of best practice that I hope the veterans' commissioner will look to roll out across Wales. There's still an awful lot more to do for our veterans, whether it be ensuring access to NHS dentists for veterans upon leaving the armed forces or for better data collection on our military children. And we must keep striving for better. And I want to thank my colleague Darren Millar for constantly banging the drum for veterans in Wales, and letting people know that, although we have come a long way, we need to do a lot more.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to today's debate on behalf of the Welsh Government in support of those who have served and those who continue to serve.

As a Government, we are very much committed to building on our work supporting serving personnel, veterans and their families in Wales. It would be remiss of me not to start today by talking about the terrible siltation in Ukraine and to reiterate how the Welsh Government stands in support and solidarity with Ukraine and with the Ukrainian people, and is providing £4 million in financial and humanitarian aid to help provide critical support to those in desperate need.

And many of the points that Jenny Rathbone raised are, obviously, a matter for the UK Government, but I am aware from recent correspondence that there are British troops at readiness to support the humanitarian effort in and around the situation in Ukraine. I think it's also important that we recognise that the current situation may be having an adverse effect on some of our veterans with service-related conditions, arising from their time in war zones, and our Veterans NHS Wales service and a wide-range of support are available for them to access, so perhaps we will recirculate them to Members to make sure they are able to signpost constituents, should they need it.

As a Government, we are committed to supporting the armed forces community and very much recognise their sacrifices. This year, we will honour those who served in the Falklands, 40 years on from that conflict. The First Minister will lead a national commemoration service in June, and I will be supporting additional events, including a cycle ride with veterans, starting off from the national Falklands memorial in Cardiff.

The contribution of our armed forces to our nation is something we all appreciate and never forget, whether thousands of miles away or here at home. And we have all seen, and are all incredibly grateful for, the support our serving personnel have provided during the COVID pandemic, working with the NHS. They've delivered vital supplies, vaccinations, driven ambulances and epitomised the ethos of service not self.

The Welsh Government has welcomed the appointment of Colonel James Phillips as the first Veterans' Commissioner for Wales. As Members will be aware, Scotland and Northern Ireland both have established commissioner roles who work to improve the opportunities for their respective veteran populations, and we will of course support that intention here in Wales.

I actually had the opportunity to meet Colonel Phillips informally at the St David's Day dinner at the 160th (Welsh) Brigade—the dinner that James Evans tried to tell me was cancelled. I don't know what he was up to there. [Laughter.] I don't know whether they'd just told James it was cancelled. [Laughter.] But in all seriousness, whilst I was able to meet Colonel Phillips informally a couple of weeks ago, we extended an invitation to join us here in the Senedd to learn more about what we are doing in Wales, both as a devolved Government and also how we work together in this place in common cause in support of our veterans and their families.

I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer for the time being. Can I just thank the Minister for her generous response to the debate and to all those who've contributed so eloquently to this discussion? I'm very pleased to hear that the Minister will be considering our proposal. I hope that by that she means that the Government will be supporting our motion. I think it is to our credit as an institution in this Senedd and here in Wales that we've worked together on a cross-party basis over many years to try to support the lot of our veterans here in Wales, and we must never forget some of the statistics that have been bandied about, which is that Wales makes a much bigger contribution to the armed forces than any of the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom. I think that's why they are the best in the world, frankly, because there are many Welsh men and women who serve so excellently in them.

I also want to congratulate Colonel James Phillips on his appointment. I think he's an excellent choice as our very first Veterans' Commissioner for Wales. This is something that we've campaigned for on the Conservative benches, not just since 2014, but actually 2011—it was in our manifesto back in 2011 for the then Assembly elections. And we've been persistently shaking the tree, and I'm really pleased now that the UK Government, working with the Welsh Government, has identified this fine candidate to fulfil the role. I think his recent experience will no doubt be invaluable in ensuring that the needs of veterans are represented very, very well indeed.

And we can see the sort of impact that our veterans have even here in the Senedd, can't we? Because we've got people who have served in the armed forces who now work even within some of our teams. My colleague Joel James has a young lady called Hannah Jarvis, formerly serving in the armed forces—she was recently on the Ukrainian border, taking medical supplies there, using her experience, her knowledge of logistics, to be able to fulfil that role. I want to pay credit to her and others who are continuing to have that public service attitude that Hannah and others have. [Interruption.] Yes.

That's particularly interesting to know, and do you therefore think that there really is an important role for logistical regiments to play in assisting the Polish people and others, to get our part played by bringing people from Ukraine as soon as possible?

I certainly do, Jenny, and I was very struck by your contribution to today's debate, and fully endorse your calls on that front. I was also struck by your personal story, your family story, of just how not having the right support in place can be so costly for our veteran community and their loved ones. Thank you for sharing that. I know it must have been difficult for you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor, of course, referred to some of his family's experiences too, and this is why we've got to make sure that the armed forces covenant is honoured. It's been pleasing that we've made progress in recent years. I think it's 12 years ago now that Veterans NHS Wales was established. It's great that we've put more fuel into the tank for that organisation to be able to meet the demands that have been placed upon it, and of course we've made other strides as well, with the excellent armed forces liaison officers that people like Laura Anne Jones referenced in Gwent and elsewhere across the country. We've got things like the defence employer recognition scheme, and I must declare an interest in that respect, because I'm a board member of the Reserve Forces' and Cadets' Association for Wales, which actually runs that scheme. But it is really excellent. We should be encouraging all public sector employers in Wales to be able to adopt the scheme and go for those bronze, silver and gold awards. I hope there's going to be a platinum award at some point in the future.

Can I thank the Minister also for the continued work that she's been doing with the expert group? It's been a pleasure to be able to participate in the expert group, and I think this again shows the way that we're working collaboratively on a cross-party basis for the benefit of our armed forces community and veterans here in Wales. Because that is not normal—it's not normal to invite people from opposition parties into groups like that, but you've continued to allow me to sit on there to bring appropriate challenge in those meetings, and I welcome it very much indeed.

Jack Sargeant made reference to the fact that a former Minister, Alun Davies, had contributed to today's debate. Of course, your own father, Jack, was a very fine Minister for the armed forces during his tenure. He was a great champion of people in the armed forces, and indeed our veterans community, so I want to pay tribute to him. And we must not forget either that there are many third sector organisations doing incredible work to support our armed forces, not just the Royal British Legion and SSAFA, but other smaller organisations like Woody's Lodge, Change Step in my own constituency, and indeed we've got a growing number of veterans' sheds around Wales, something that started, actually—. That movement started in my own constituency in Clwyd West. So, these are things that we've got to be very proud of, but there's always going to be more work to do. We want to stand shoulder to shoulder with you, Minister, and the Welsh Government to make sure that we deliver for our armed forces here in Wales, and on that basis I'm delighted that you're supporting our motion. We will all work, I'm sure, closely with the new commissioner to make sure that our veterans in Wales get a better deal.

Right, the motion, therefore—. Let's start at the beginning. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does anybody object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We move on now to item 8, Plaid Cymru debate, the cost-of-living crisis—the effect on schools and children. I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer.

I move the motion, and I'm glad to open this important and timely debate before the Senedd.

Education is considered to be, in that famous phrase, the greatest of equalisers. However, despite the best efforts of our teachers and support staff, poverty is an insidious creature. It creeps into settings where everyone should be treated equally, hampering attempts at levelling the playing field, leaving a damaging trail of inequity, exclusivity and stigma, stifling opportunity, harming the well-being of our youngest citizens. And as child poverty exists in every part of Wales, it is therefore present in every state school. There isn't a single council ward with a child poverty rate below 12 per cent.

For the three-year period up to 2019, 28 per cent of children in Wales were living in households below the poverty line, roughly 195,000 children. By 2021, this figure had risen to 31 per cent. The cost-of-living crisis is set to make these shocking statistics even worse. The cut to universal credit and working tax credits has reduced the incomes of 40 per cent of households with children by over £1,000 a year. Even before the COVID crisis hit, with its detrimental and disproportionate effect on our most socioeconomically deprived communities, these children were at a higher risk of being in ill health, and less likely to achieve the top grades in their school than their peers from higher income households. We must seek solutions. The Child Poverty Action Group report on reducing the cost of the school day in Wales, published last month, gives voice to those who are made to feel excluded, unhappy or different because of their economic circumstances. We need concerted action to raise family incomes and reduce living costs, and a focus on changing practices that currently reinforce stigma and treat people in poverty in less favourable ways.

Today's debate is about doing this through the education system. We may believe that sending a child to school is free. However, as we will hear, it bears a daily cost. Families are routinely asked to contribute towards the costs of school uniform, trips, charity fundraising, school meals and snacks, and to provide equipment and resources for different subjects. This can expose children to the risk of stigma and shame when they're unable to afford even small charges for participation. While there is guidance for school governing bodies around many of these elements of the school day and of school life, much of it is not statutory, and its application is inconsistent. The consequences of many policies or ways of doing things are, of course, often unintentional, but that really isn't good enough. From an equalities perspective, from a human rights perspective, from a children's rights perspective, from a moral perspective, things need to change.

Our motion calls for ensuring that school meal debt doesn't negatively impact a pupil, be that through stress, stigma or even having to go without food, as we have heard in some cases. Consideration should always be given to why school meal debt could have accrued. The reason is never within the control of the child, the child that it affects and harms. The child should therefore never suffer the consequences of that debt. This needs to go beyond guidance. This should be put on a statutory footing, as well as the financial sustainability of school catering services ensured.

Beyond the expansion of free school meals, some helpful initiatives to help pupils are, of course, already in place. But their effectiveness is sometimes held back due to the low take-up of numbers of those entitled to that help. This is an area where the Government could really make a difference. Targeted entitlements to meet the education costs of children and young people, like the pupil deprivation grant access grant and the EMA, the education maintenance allowance, help increase income, are key to addressing poverty. But research shows that not every eligible family receives what they are entitled to, either through a lack of awareness or because of the nature of the application process. One parent's words, contained in the Child Poverty Action Group report, sums this up well:

'I wish that there was a handout listing the places that we could get help but I feel that because we both work we wouldn’t qualify for the help anyway.'

There is therefore a common misconception that children are automatically ineligible for support such as free school meals and PDGA if their parents or carers are in any form of paid employment. It is also important to note that three quarters of children in poverty already live in a household where someone is in work.

The Child Poverty Action Group estimates that around 55,000 children in poverty are not eligible for free school meals, meaning that they are unable to access PDGA as well. Especially given the cost-of-living crisis, it is crucial that all families are receiving all the benefits to which they are entitled. Measures such as the employment of advice workers at schools, or adopting automatic registration and application-free passporting of entitlements would remove barriers and ensure uptake.

In adopting the new curriculum, schools should be required to ensure that no pupil need buy materials or equipment to take part in certain subjects. We need to reduce or remove these costs for all pupils. Education should be all-inclusive. You shouldn't have to pay to learn any subject at school.

The new curriculum blends many subjects into each other, meaning that costs and charges for resources could appear in subjects that used to be more affordable. The new curriculum and the commitment to universal free school meals in primary school present a golden opportunity to create a truly inclusive education system, but only if we face up to the issues and the barriers that are currently affecting children of families on low incomes.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to start by saying that I'm grateful to Plaid for bringing forward this debate today. The cost-of-living crisis is something that we're all majorly concerned about, and it'll no doubt have an impact on learners and schools in the coming months. On top of the 22 years of failure from the Welsh Government to bring children out of poverty, with 200,000 children still being in poverty in Wales, it is important that we have this debate.

We support today's motion laid before us, and I just would like to ask Plaid Cymru if they will accept and acknowledge our amendment as an addition to the original motion, as we believe that this amendment will make it stronger and reinforces the point that you're trying to make here today.

Point 1 of this motion notes that the cost-of-living crisis has had a particular effect on schools and children. We of course have had the free breakfast schemes and the free school meals available in our schools—soon to be universal—and, as was raised in the Chamber earlier, we need to not only ensure these meals continue to be nutritious, but that they are actually available to all in all schools, and ensure that children can access the support that they need above and beyond the current free-school-meal identified children.

We all know that a mix of inflation, knock-on effects of the war in Ukraine and the exit from the pandemic is bound to have a drastic effect on our economy. So, many will be affected right now, and there needs to be a focus on supporting the most vulnerable families and children in schools so no-one slips through the net. A more targeted approach, perhaps, is needed, particularly due to the move to universal school meals.

The current cost-of-living situation in Wales has increased stress and tension around family finances and significant consequences for children and young people, who are facing more mental health challenges as a result. This is only going to exacerbate the mental health crisis Welsh students are already facing, and it was only yesterday that the First Minister admitted that mental health delivery is way behind where it should be.

The cost-of-living crisis is having a significant impact upon families across Wales and the wider world, like Germany and the USA, so not just the UK, with more and more families facing hardship, being on the edge or living in poverty. In the most recent UK-wide Barnardo's practitioners' survey, published in March 2022, 68 per cent of respondents said that the top issue they were concerned about in schools was the lack of support and resources, and 59 per cent cited mental health and well-being issues.

Point 2 of the motion calls on the Welsh Government to increase efforts to ensure measures to support children from disadvantaged backgrounds in schools are implemented as effectively as possible, so I'm pleased that the Minister for education has announced that the pupil development grant access scheme will be raised for one year by £100 per learner. And this is all well and good, but there needs to be greater awareness of the scheme, as again was raised earlier in this Chamber, and also the problem about it being accessible to all, due to the fact that you have to apply online for it.

I, again, also very much welcome this debate. Firstly, I want to address the problems faced by schools. The local government settlement is a good one, but one year's increase cannot negate over 10 years of austerity. While school budget allocations in most councils are yet to be finalised, the expectation is they will go up in line with council expenditure. This is different to the increase in council support from the Welsh Government. Whilst the Welsh Government payment is a major part of council income, it is augmented by council tax fees and charges. With the expectation of low council tax increases, low fee increases and low increases in charges, it means council expenditure will increase by less—quite often substantially less—than the amount of money that has been given by the Senedd to the council.

And looking at school budgets, the vast majority of school budget expenditure is staff costs, including teaching staff and support staff. School budgets are affected by pay awards, leading to an increase in salaries for staff and increased pension costs. Schools will also be affected by increasing energy costs. In one of the schools where I chair the governors, the gas and electric cost this year was slightly less than £15,000. The expectation is it'll be over £30,000 in the coming year. It's a medium-sized primary school. It's an increase of just under 2 per cent of the total school budget. While school budgets will appear to rise substantially, the pressures mentioned will mean that there will not be as much for additional support for pupils, and I think that's one of the things we're looking at: the money is going in to support pupils. Schools exist for pupils; they exist to help them attain the best they can.

I support reviewing the effectiveness of the statutory guidance on school uniform policy to ensure consistent affordability across Wales. A number of parents have contacted me regarding school uniform, and the need to buy from either expensive suppliers or via the school, as opposed to lower cost stores. Even when it's exactly the same colour, when it's exactly the same everything else, the school ask you to pay what can be substantially more. Yes, I paid it; I was a college lecturer, I could afford to pay it. There were others who had children in my daughter's class who weren't college lecturers, who weren't well paid, who had difficulty paying it.

Perhaps the Minister can explain to me, when schoolteachers refuse to teach pupils because they're wearing the wrong clothing—and in one case I dealt with, the wrong colour black—how the school is not breaking the law, and why the Welsh Government is not using PLASC to cut funding to schools who exclude pupils on grounds of uniform is something I would like to see addressed. Children are being penalised. The child doesn't decide. A nine, 10, 11, 12-year-old child does not decide what colour coat they wear; they don't decide what colour jumper they wear; in fact, they don't even decide at the age of eight or nine what colour clothes they have. That is done by their parents. Punishing children for the activities of their parents is morally wrong and should be stopped.

How could one think that not feeding children was a good idea?

I obviously support free school meals to all children in state primary schools, and await the plan to extend to secondary schools. The increase in energy costs and food costs will have a devastating effect on children living in low-income families. It is inevitable that some children will be cold and hungry during the next year. Spending a night in a cold bedroom, not being adequately fed and having to do your homework in the same room as the rest of the family, who will be watching entertainment on the television or listening to music, will adversely affect attainment. Many just-managing families today will become not-managing as prices increase and wages do not keep pace. It's at times like this that the loss of Communities First is felt, and the ability it had to provide a place for children to meet and do their homework. We're living in difficult times; we must do all we can to ensure that children are not the ones paying the price.

Just a bit of personal experience, coming from a relatively poor family: you do not bring home the notes given to you about trips; you do not take home notes about the things that are happening in the school; you don't take home notes about musical instruments available to be taught. All it does is upset your parents because they don't have the ability to pay it. You do not go to school on the no-uniform days, because you don't want to ask your parents for a pound in order to not have to wear a uniform. That's what life is like. And that is what life shouldn't be like. I speak from personal experience on this; I don't want other children to go through it.

We've talked in this Chamber about education being an equaliser; with a great education, no matter your background, in theory, you can and will achieve whatever you set your mind to. Now, there's a lot to say on this statement, not least on the specific topic that we're debating today.

Schools are assumed to be places of equity, where the potential of all is nurtured equally. And I don't think anyone would argue that this isn't the intention of schools, but barriers still exist, especially for children from low-income families. We've already heard of the issues surrounding access to entitlements; it's one of the reasons I believe in the principle of universality. We've heard about the importance of free schools meals—something I can attest to as being a lifeline for many families. But there are other factors to consider.

One of which is the provision of EMA—again, a provision that I know from personal experience is a lifeline for many, and something that I've campaigned on since my election to this place. It is time the Government reviewed EMA, specifically the amount that's paid to students and the process of applying. Currently, the amount paid to learners is the same amount now as it was when I was in receipt of it. It's the same amount now as it was when it was first introduced in 2004: £30 a week. This means that we haven't seen an increase in just shy of 20 years, so it hasn't accounted for inflation at all. And the Bevan Foundation estimates that we would need to increase the payment to £45 for it to be the same value as it was in the mid-2000s.

On the process of applying, as we know, EMA is means tested and, as my colleague Sioned Williams has already established, entitlement take-up problems persist, caused by complex forms and the difficulties of understanding the process of applying. In Bridgend College, for example, on average, there are between 700 and 800 full-time further education learners who claim EMA, but there are very clear concerns expressed by staff at Bridgend College that, in reality, there are many more students who need access. EMA is a lifeline for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. We generally accept that education is the best route out of poverty, and retaining students post 16 will have that desired effect of giving further opportunities and skills to those from disadvantaged backgrounds, but they need that support to keep going.

Another area that I'd like to touch upon in this debate is the issue of transport, and how parents are often confronted with a choice of cost over their child's safety. This choice is crystallised for me by the amount of correspondence I get on a regular basis from parents in the Llynfi valley. In Caerau, a community that has consistency ranked highly on the index of deprivation, and often is in the top five in Wales, there are pupils who face a walk of 45 minutes to an hour to get to school along busy roads and in all weathers. The reality for many working parents is that often they don't have the luxury of being able to prioritise lifts, especially if they're commuting and especially if money is tight. This leaves no choice: either rely on public transport, which can set households back £15 a week per child, or rely on that child to walk if public transport isn't affordable, or it may even be unavailable in some places. With fuel costs going up, this cost is likely to increase, which demonstrates how things like reviewing EMA would make all the difference. And finally, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, speaking from my own personal experiences of growing up, this support is vital.

It's good to follow that contribution from Luke. Dirprwy Lywydd, we do face a crisis, as we all know, a crisis in the cost of living. And sadly, as we also all know, it's likely to get worse and considerably worse; the cost of food, of fuel, of energy and many other things, it's a tremendous strain on the household budgets of those least able to withstand the impact. And particularly, it impacts on families and single parents, so, those children in school from those families are facing a tremendous struggle.

One thing I'd like to concentrate on, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that wider education enrichment experience that comes from young people having a full opportunity to recognise, discover and develop their talents, whether it's sport and physical activity, whether it's culture, arts and music, as well as academic and vocational. All our young people should have a full opportunity to develop that range of talents, but sadly, as we all know, that simply isn't the case. And lots of our young people, thankfully, do get a very wide experience in that way, whether it's mum's taxi, dad's taxi, or, indeed, grandparents' taxi, they are taken around to various classes and groups and sometimes every day of the week, they're going to activities that are helping them to develop and grow. As well as developing the particular skills involved, they also benefit from the social experience, team working and so on, and it's wonderful to watch that process taking place.

But for those children particularly from the more deprived communities, the cost of those activities is a real difficulty and sometimes parents, for whatever reason, are not going to take them around and neither is anybody else in the family, to have that experience. And that's why I believe that community-focused schools are so very, very important, because if those enriching experiences, wider experiences are available in school, in the lunch time or at the end of school, then, very often, those children will have that experience, and it's the only way that they will have that experience. And if those schools are also linked with outside organisations to provide opportunities, that, again, may be the only way that those children will have those particular advantages.

So, with that sort of background, I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is prioritising community-focused schools, but I think that the frustration remains that it's far from consistent across Wales; it's good in some schools within local authority areas, but perhaps not across the local authority area. Some local authorities are very good, but others are not so good, and we really need that to be a consistent quality offer that provides those wonderful opportunities for all of our children, the length and breadth of Wales. So, now that we have this cost-of-living crisis, which is bringing these matters into even starker relief because of the cost of the activities involved as well as the difficulties for some families in taking their children to groups and classes, I hope that we do see a renewed sense of urgency from Welsh Government, our local authorities and our schools now, Dirpwy Lywydd, to drive forward progress and make sure that absolutely every school in Wales is truly and properly community focused.

The school day can contain many stresses. I'm not just talking about maths tests or rushing to finish homework on the school steps, I'm talking about children who go to school hungry and can't afford a snack at morning break, children who feel dread going through the gates because they're worried that someone might notice that they're not wearing the right shoes or carrying the right bag, who feel ashamed when it comes to discussing school trips, because they know they'll never be able to join in. Because, Dirprwy Lywydd, as night follows day, the scourge of poverty follows children into the yard and into classrooms. It means they don't have the right kit for gym or flashy pencil cases in lessons, and that badge of difference that hangs over their heads leads all too easily to bullying.

Over 3,000 children took part in a report by the Children’s Commissioner for Wales in 2015 about bullying. The report, called 'Sam's Story', showed the perceived difference is identified by children themselves as key in driving bullying. And whilst that difference can be linked to appearance, ethnicity or disability, poverty plays a horribly prominent role. The report writers asked children to draw an imaginary character called Sam who's experiencing bullying. I'll show the Chamber one of those images. You'll see that Sam has holes in his clothes and the clothes look either old or unwashed. He is displaying stereotypical manifestations of poverty. The commissioner's 'A Charter for Change' report found that those who've experienced persistent poverty are more than three times as likely to fall out with friends most days, over twice as likely to be frequently bullied, more likely to play alone, less likely to have good friends, to be liked by other children and less likely to talk to their friends about their worries. Poverty isolates children. It locks them in this isolated experience of feeling set apart. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, there are specific ways about how schools are run that compound that isolation and that lead to bullying.

Let's talk again about school uniforms. As we've heard, too many schools have an exclusive supplier, which restricts choice and means that the price can be extortionate. Many schools, as we've heard, enforce uniform policy so strictly, they don't allow a cheaper alternative skirt or trouser that is the same colour, for example. That can embarrass children, which is why we're calling for a review into statutory guidance on school uniform policies. There is something horrid in the thought that children are walking around wearing their embarrassment, so that they can be taunted about it by others. And school trips and own-clothes days, as we've heard, can make children feel excluded and different too. Support from the pupil development grant varies across different schools, not all of them are making the most of being able to do subsidised trips, and that means that the poorest children again get left out. And when all of their friends spend break time and after school chatting about what they'll do on the trips, planning outfits, those who can't afford to go feel like school isn't a place where they belong. It's meant to be a leveller, where everyone has equal opportunity. The word for 'school' in Welsh means 'ladder', but for so many children, that ladder is kicked away before they've even had the chance to start to climb it.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I begin by thanking Plaid Cymru for putting forward this motion today? The steps that have been outlined are ones that we as a Government are already taking. So, we are happy to support the motion moved by Sioned Williams as well as the amendment moved by Laura Jones.

We know that poverty can undermine the ability of children to learn, it can limit their opportunities in life, can prevent them from fully benefiting from education. As a Government, we are entirely committed to do our level best to get to grips with the impact of poverty on educational attainment. Our commitment in the co-operation agreement to extend the cohort receiving free school meals to include all primary school pupils is an important contribution in this regard. Our record in terms of providing free school meals to pupils in Wales is something that we are very proud of as a Government, and we've seen this as a vital component of ensuring high standards for everyone.

As part of the wider package of support to assist pupils who are struggling to cope with the cost-of-living crisis, we want to ensure that nutritious, healthy food is available to children and young people. An additional £21.4 million has been allocated in 2022-23 to help with the cost of school meals for eligible pupils during the Easter holiday, the summer half term and summer break this year. This is a measure in response to the pandemic and to the cost-of-living crisis. As being eligible for free school meals is the basis for a number of rights and to support offered nationally and locally, we are taking a number of steps to respond to the impact on these pupils as a result of the changes to the free school meal provision. But I want to be clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, that every child and young person who is eligible to receive other benefits at the moment, for example the PDG access, will continue to be eligible as they were under the previous arrangements, and this will be explained clearly to families so that they continue to receive the support that they have the right to receive to ensure that starting to provide free school meals to everyone will not have a negative impact on the pupils who'd have received additional support.

We acknowledge that the costs related to the school day, such as a school uniform, can, of course, be a financial burden. We are clear that school uniforms should be something that families should be able to afford.

In 2019, Dirprwy Lywydd, we became the first Government in the United Kingdom to make uniform guidance statutory to better support governing bodies in making their decisions on school uniform policies in respect of access, affordability and flexibility. We will continue to work with schools and governing bodies to ensure the guidance is effective in supporting affordability for families across Wales.

We agree that children and young people should not be disadvantaged by school meal debt.

Would you ask schools just to set the colours that they want children to wear, rather than making it complicated?

I thank Mike Hedges for that suggestion. We are reviewing our guidance at the moment, and I'll make sure that point is fully taken into account in that review. I recognise the points he made in his contribution to the debate earlier on that subject.

We agree that children and young people should not be disadvantaged by school meal debt, and we have already taken action. In November, we wrote to all headteachers setting out our clear expectation that local authorities and schools should work in partnership with families when they're experiencing difficulties to find a solution to ensure that all children get a healthy lunch. Importantly, local authorities and schools were also reminded of their ability to use their discretion to implement variable pricing structures to better support children and families on low incomes who are not eligible for free school meals.

The PDG access grant is the most generous scheme of its sort in the UK, and I was glad to announce recently that the grant will now be available to every single school year group. Working with my colleague the finance and local government Minister, Members will have seen the written statement this week announcing an additional one-off payment of £100 per eligible people. The motion calls for improved signposting for the grant. We ran a successful, I think, national campaign to raise awareness of the scheme over the winter months to help families who may be new to benefits and not aware of the scheme. Local authorities also run their own communications campaigns to maximise take-up, and I remain committed to expanding on this good work.

The motion also calls for working today towards automatic registration. This is a goal I think we would all share. However, due to the interaction with the UK Government's tax and benefits system, this is complex and not something that is unfortunately able to happen immediately. But, as part of the income maximisation action plan, and working with local authorities, we've developed and published a best practice toolkit. This collates what works in helping to simplify and streamline the application process for devolved benefits, making them more accessible to people in need of this support. We will continue to work with local authorities to explore further ways to simplify and streamline the application process for Welsh benefits and identify options for increasing take-up.

We will continue to improve the awareness of Welsh benefits through delivering initiatives for both potential applicants and the front-line staff that support applicants, helping more people to access the support they're entitled to. We've published guidance for governing bodies on charging for school activities. The Education Act 1996 sets out the law regarding what charges can and cannot be made for activities. School trips linked to the curriculum are not chargeable. Welsh Government guidance on charging states that families in receipt of free school meals should not be charged for school trips. We'll provide continued support to schools on ensuring all trips and activities are inclusive.

I call on Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Why are we here as Senedd Members if not to get this right? After all, politicians have been here before. I'm sure many of us remember that target of eradicating child poverty by 2020—something that was at the core of the 1997 election campaign for the Labour Government, and that was reinforced then by Tony Blair in 2002 and adopted also by this Senedd as a target. I remember in 2008, when I was working for a Welsh Government sponsored body, that that was a focus and priority of our work, and yet here we are, with a situation that is worsening. This is not about point scoring, but if we are to do anything in this Senedd term, then let's work together to ensure that these are not empty words and that they are repeated again in a decade, as the statistics continue to fail children, generation after generation.

I would like to thank everyone that contributed to the debate and shared some deeply personal stories as well. I think it's very easy sometimes for people to look at us as elected representatives and assume that we have a certain background. So, thank you, Luke, and Mike as well, for sharing your own personal experiences, because it is important that this Senedd also reflects the diversity of Wales, and we know that people are not able to have that fair start in life and have equity of access to all the opportunities at present.

Sioned Williams, in her opening remarks—. It was very emotional listening to the things that you were saying. I think one of the things that resonated with me was the key one—that the reason is never within the control of the child, and yet, too often, the repeated instances we had throughout this debate were about making that child feel that responsibility. Mike, when you spoke about not taking those notes in, of not putting your parents in that position—. Because often it's perceived as poverty being a choice or that people are at blame, but they're not, and I think we need to be realistic here about the fact that it is a political choice. We do have levers. I know we're frustrated here in Wales at times that we don't have all the levers to change this, but we can change things if we are determined to make those changes.

In terms of Laura Anne Jones's contribution—a reference again that a cost-of-living crisis in other countries exists. That may be the case, but we have amongst the worst child poverty rates in Europe, and I think just to say that there's a cost-of-living crisis elsewhere doesn't make right the fact that it exists here, and I think we need to do everything within our power, not just accept that there is a cost-of-living crisis, but accept responsibility for political decisions that lead to that. Because, after all, we have the statistics, we know the impact of not having that £20-a-week uplift maintained, and I think we need to be clear as well that even if that had been maintained, it doesn't mean that people wouldn't be living in a crisis. It would have made things a bit better, as it did during the pandemic, but it wouldn't have solved people from getting into debt, or from child poverty worsening, but not having it is making the situation even worse. So, we do need to be clear here, just because other countries may have a cost-of-living crisis does not negate the fact that there is a responsibility on the UK Government, and there are things we could change. The fact that the universal credit is not rising in line with inflation even—those are political decisions.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That changes my pattern.

We'll move now to today's short debate, and I call on Gareth Davies to speak on the topic he has chosen.

If you're leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly so the Member can actually make his contribution.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to Janet Finch-Saunders, Tom Giffard and Darren Millar.

Deputy Llywydd, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to debate this topic, which is close to my heart. Our seaside towns need help. We have presided over their decline for far too long. Many of our seaside towns were formed during the nineteenth century, and enjoyed their heyday during the reign of Queen Victoria, right through to the 1970s and the 1980s. That certainly is the case for the biggest such town in my constituency, which is Rhyl.

My connection to the town is a long one. Not only did I grow up in Rhyl, but my family lived there from before it was a town. Williams Street off Vale Road is named after my great-great-grandmother's family, who occupied that area in the 1800s. Their cottages formed the row that later became Williams Street. My grandfather was born in a terraced house on Vale Road in 1927. My family have owned and operated numerous businesses in the town, and have been active members of the community.

I'm still a proud member of Rhyl rotary club, which upholds a proud tradition as one of the oldest rotary clubs in Wales, having been granted its charter in 1926. It's safe to say my family have witnessed the birth, life and, sadly, the decline of Rhyl. But I won't sit idly by and watch the death of a town that is part of my blood, my heritage—Rhyl, or should I say, 'sunny Rhyl', as the brochures describe the town, quite rightly. It's believed to be named after the manor house, Tŷ'n Rhyl, on Vale Road, which in turn derived from Tŷ'n yr Haul, or 'house of sunshine'—hence 'sunny Rhyl'. It's probably a lot of belief, but that's what I choose to believe, anyway.

The town grew in the 1800s thanks to its 3 miles of sandy beaches and the Victorian belief in the curative properties of sea air. In fact, it was this belief that saw the famous Victorian poet, Gerard Manley Hopkins, sent to Rhyl for five days for the good of his health. Hopkins, who was also a Jesuit priest, had spent three years at St Beuno's College in Tremeirchion during the late 1870s. It was during his sojourn in Rhyl that he penned the poem 'The Sea and the Skylark'.

It was the arrival of the railway in 1848 that accelerated the town's popularity and growth. It became home to Wales's first seaside pier in 1867, a magnificent structure that cost £15,000 to build at the time. It was 2,335 ft long and stood 11 ft above high tide. It initially included a pier railway and offered steamer excursions to other Welsh resorts and to Liverpool.

Other attractions, which included restaurants, tea rooms, a bandstand, shops and private baths, proved to be quite a draw for Victorian holidaymakers from, mostly, the north-west of England. Tragically, the pier was beset by a series of disasters. In December 1883, the schooner, Lady Stuart, caused extensive damage, which resulted in 183 ft of the pier being lost. In 1891, 50 people had to be rescued when the steamer Fawn collided with the pier. In 1901, a fire destroyed the pavilion and part of the structure was closed. A succession of storms in 1909 caused the collapse of a further section of the pier. By 1913, the pier had become unsafe and was closed, unfortunately. It remained derelict until Rhyl council acquired it in the 1920s. The seaward end was demolished but the shoreward end was redeveloped and included the building of an amphitheatre. The pier reopened in 1930 and remained so until 1966, when it was again closed on safety grounds. By then it measured a mere 330 ft. Sadly, the pier was demolished on safety grounds long before I was born, and the fate of the pier was seen as symbolic of the decline of the town, alongside the demolition of the original Pavilion Theatre in 1974.

Cheaper foreign travel is believed to have contributed to declining visitor numbers, which accelerated during the 1970s and the 1980s. Declining visitors resulted in a decline in fortunes for the town. Many local businesses, my family's included, ceased trading. Since 2007, the number of vacant units in Rhyl town centre has doubled, and the town has lost a number of major retailers. It's little wonder, then, that Rhyl is now home to some of the poorest wards in Wales, if not the UK, but Rhyl is still a popular holiday destination despite this, attracting visitors from across the UK. But we cannot compete with cheap foreign holidays. Benidorm might not have Rhyl's charm or excellent scenery, but it does have the advantage of near-constant sunshine and warm waters. It doesn't hurt that you can get a return flight from Manchester to Alicante cheaper than you can get a train to Rhyl. Transport for Wales might need to answer that problem. With more and more budget airlines springing up offering flights to far-flung destinations for peanuts, how can our seaside towns possibly hope to compete?

The decline I've witnessed in Rhyl has also been echoed in other towns across the Welsh coastline, and, unfortunately, Governments at all levels have not taken sufficient action to halt this decline. The title of this debate poses a question: is restoring our seaside towns to their former glory a necessary task or an impossible ask? I don't believe it's impossible. It certainly won't be easy, but if we all work together—local government, Welsh Government and the UK Government, alongside the leisure and travel industry—then we can compete with foreign travel. We can put seaside towns like Rhyl back on the destinations map. We just need to think creatively, work collectively and collaboratively to sell the benefits of our seaside towns worldwide, and work to help to create a year-round offer and work to innovate and diversify our seaside towns.

Our seaside towns are on the shores of some of the world's best scenery. Rhyl, for example, is just a stone's throw away from the Clwydian range, which, as we speak, are seeking to become an international dark sky park. We can attract visitors from across the globe to not only marvel at our beaches, our hillsides, our rivers and valleys, but also our unrivalled views of the heavens. We have some of the best natural beauty in the world. We are a nation steeped in history, abound with fantastic folklore and deep mythology, but we're absolutely terrible at selling it, and that's the problem. Our own citizens are not aware of the treasures on their doorstep, so how can we expect people from further afield to be clued up?

We might not be able to recreate the Victorian demand for the seaside air—I'm not deluded and time does move on—but we can and must sell the benefits of our seaside towns. We have to integrate and innovate our leisure and tourism markets, promote our outstanding food and drink. We can't do cheaper but we can do better. [Interruption.] And the Denbigh plum while we're at it—why not? It did come as a disappointment to some Members that I didn't mention that in the speech, so there we go. I hope this Welsh Government will take leadership on this, and help rejuvenate and revitalise our seaside towns, from Rhyl to Rhoose, Porthcawl to Prestatyn. Diolch yn fawr.

Now, I'm very proud to represent a constituency with a number of seaside towns—Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Conwy, Deganwy, Llandudno and Penrhyn Bay—and Llandudno is known across Wales as the queen of Welsh resorts, and I put this down to our fantastic tourism and hospitality businesses. We've managed, as a town, to keep our Victorian qualities, thanks to the help and preservation by Mostyn Estates. But I've been amazed by the determination throughout the pandemic of our businesses and their investment in our town. The historic Llandudno pier, the longest in Wales, has seen an explosion of new businesses, activities and colour, with a nation-crossing Ferris wheel being installed. And they've also had a very successful series on ITV Wales that's gone national.

Many hotels now have their fronts repainted, ready to welcome the new season of holidaymakers, and we've now got national chains like Travelodge and Premier Inn that have also established venues in the town. Our high street is welcoming new shops, pubs and restaurants. This incredible investment by the private sector highlights that they are already working to restore our seaside towns to their former glory, having gone through all that they've gone through with the pandemic. So, my question to you, Deputy Minister: what will you be doing as a Welsh Government to support them in this mission? Diolch.

I thank Gareth Davies for bringing forward this really important short debate, and I'm not sure that our coastal communities always get the attention that they deserve. So, thank you for bringing this debate forward today. One minute is simply not enough time, I think, to reflect on the great diversity of our coastal communities across my region of South Wales West. But, as the shadow Minister for the Welsh Conservatives for tourism, I feel that it would be remiss of me not to mention the single clearest threat to these communities in my region—

The Welsh Government [Laughter.]

The Welsh Government's tourism tax would be simply devastating for the tourism offer in communities like Gower, Mumbles and Porthcawl in my region. After an incredibly difficult few years, instead of encouraging more visitors to come to our coastal communities, the Welsh Government's priority seems to be to tax them instead.

After I raised this issue in First Minister's questions yesterday, it's clear from the First Minister's answer now that, because of the limitations of that tax, these same communities could be burdened with taxing their visitors and then not see any additional money being spent in that community at all. The usual Labour-Plaid attack line of, 'It works for Venice so why wouldn't it work for Porthcawl?' now has a really clear answer, Dirprwy Lywydd: Venice sees a financial benefit from their tourism tax; Porthcawl might not.

I thank Gareth Davies for introducing this debate. He's taken us already on an excursion to Rhyl, and we've been also on an excursion to Aberconwy and the wonderful resorts there. But I want to take you to visit places in my own constituency: Colwyn Bay, Rhos-on-Sea, Towyn and Kinmel Bay—wonderful resorts, many of them competitors to Rhyl and Prestatyn down the road.

But all of these resorts, as has already been said, have their fortunes closely aligned with the tourism industry, and those price-sensitive tourists who come to get their kiss-me-quick experience in Towyn and Kinmel Bay will be choosing to go elsewhere, frankly, if there's a price differential between the beautiful places on the north Wales coast that people can visit versus elsewhere. So, we must do what we can to overturn this dreadful proposal for a tourism tax here in Wales.

Just one other point: I think the fortunes of our seaside towns can be revived and reversed. We already heard from Janet Finch-Saunders about her experience in Llandudno. Well, Colwyn Bay has turned a corner as well. It has seen some significant investment from the Welsh Government in terms of its coastal defences, which has improved the coast a great deal and created a new beach. But, on top of that, it has reinvented itself in recent years. It has had a renaissance as the events and sporting capital of north Wales. And it's because it has hung its hat on that particular idea that I believe it has been a success. All of the tourism towns, the seaside resorts, that we have spoken of today, can only really turn their fortunes around by looking for a niche that they can hang their hat on. So, I wish Rhyl, Prestatyn and all of those other seaside towns that we've mentioned today every success in following the success of Colwyn Bay.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate—Lee Waters.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm sorry I'm not in the Chamber with you; you sound like you're all having a very jolly time there.

The way that we use towns and our reasons to visit them have changed and our town centres are adapting to a new set of demands. Past reliance on retail has been undermined by the growth of online shopping. The trends were clear even pre pandemic, and COVID has accelerated that movement. We know that we need better jobs and services in town centres, where people can access them without needing to get in the car. We need to think differently about our towns. We need to focus on them as places where we meet, work and spend leisure time. If we can diversify what is offered in town centres, we will attract people back into them. So, the focus must be on rejuvenating, place-building and reinvention. And, of course, these challenges are especially difficult in some of our coastal towns, playing the dual role of the local centre alongside a dependence on tourism. Coastal locations rely heavily on tourism for jobs. In Conwy, Pembrokeshire and Anglesey around 22 per cent of employment is in tourism. Seasonality of work reduces the effect of local spend, resulting in under-employment, poverty and a lack of social well-being.

Research has shown how the pandemic is having a negative impact on the economies of coastal towns. Gareth Davies mentioned in an offhand way, in Darren Millar's phrase, 'the price-sensitive tourists', about the effect of pricing and flying to Alicante from Manchester versus catching a train to Rhyl. The way that we have allowed the price of public transport to go up relative to other forms of transport is a real problem, but that is a problem that lies at the door of successive UK Governments who've not sufficiently invested in public transport, and, as we noted in the debate last week, Wales is underfunded by £5 billion from the HS2 intervention, and, if we were to have our £5 billion, we could make a significant impact on both the price and reliability of train services across the north Wales coast, and I repeat again my plea that we work together to try and get the UK Government to change its mind on that.

We also need to maximise the potential of our natural coastline assets, whilst protecting local housing markets, local services, communities and the Welsh language. Dirprwy Lywydd, the UK Government stopped the coastal communities fund, but here in Wales we have continued specific support for coastal towns, investing a further £6 million last March, supporting 27 projects focused on job creation, protection, and high-street rejuvenation in coastal town centres. Our Transforming Towns programme provides a package of support for town centres worth £136 million, and this investment in supporting our town centres, delivering major capital projects to repurpose empty properties and land in town centres across Wales, is fundamentally based around enabling places to evolve and diversify. A great project I visited last September myself is Costigan's co-working space in Rhyl, where we have supported the transformation of a semi-derelict pub near the town's railway station, a prominent spot in the town, now into a high-quality business space for co-working—a great project.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. That brings today's proceedings to a close.