Petitions Committee

Item 2 on today's agenda: new petitions. Item 2.1, P-06-1250, 'Open a full hospital facility, including an A&E department in mid Wales':

'The public of mid Wales currently must travel between 30 and 50 to get to the nearest hospital facility.

'We are relying on English hospitals and English out of hours service...to care for our people.

'Recently ambulance times in the mid Wales area have taken up to 5 hours to reach patients who are obviously in difficulty, sometimes in life threatening circumstances.

'Our basic medical facilities in the area are struggling to cope.'

And this was submitted by Andrew Wallace with 1,811 signatures, and I do ask Members now to consider any actions they wish to take and to discuss those actions. And I'll bring Joel James in.

Thank you, Chair. I think this is, as you mentioned before, a very emotive subject, but I note from the Minister's response that, due to the rural nature of the area and the population size, they can't acquiesce to what the petitioner wants, really. I don't know what more can be done, other than, from a constituent MS point of view, to put pressure on the relevant Minister, really. So, I don't know what more can be done from a petitions point of view. It might be the case where we might have to just thank the petitioner for raising this issue, and look to close it, really. The Minister has been quite firm in the response as to why it won't happen, so I don't know what more can be done.

Thank you for that, Joel. Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much. I think that the only thing that struck me was that I was very concerned to see the Minister's response, that it was almost saying that they couldn't do anything, or there were some things they were trying to do to improve matters, but they're not in place yet. I don't know whether it's something that we could consider in terms of the Health and Social Care Committee, to make them aware of the Minister's response, because the truth is that we are seeing that response—that the service is inadequate, that there are concerns about the service, and that there are improvements that can be made, but that isn't in place yet. It does concern me that we are closing the petition without looking any further in terms of the response of the Minister to this.

Thank you, Heledd. Any further comments, Buffy?

Could we write to the health committee, then, Chair, and have a response from them on this petition? Is that something we can look at doing?

Thank you for that, Buffy. I think there are a number of suggestions within that, so can I make the suggestion, then, that we do write to the health committee to make the Chair of the committee and members of the committee, including myself, aware of the response from the Minister and the points within the petition itself? But as a Petitions Committee, I would suggest that this is probably as far as we can take it, given the Minister's response. So, I would agree with Joel's point. But of course, we could share both the response and the petitioner's comments with the health committee of the Senedd to make them aware. And of course, we could note to the petitioner who their representatives, local Members and regional Members are, and perhaps they could raise it directly with them too. Do Members agree with that? I can see nodding. Mared, happy? Yes. Okay, thank you.

Item 2.2, then, P-06-1262, 'Welsh Government to hold a public inquiry into decisions taken by them before & during the pandemic'.

'Many loved-ones acquired Covid-19 in hospitals & care homes in Wales. PPE was lacking, staff not tested unless symptomatic, ventilation poor, Covid patients put on non-Covid wards. Many sent home without being retested; spreading infection in the community & subsequently dying. Many had DNRs placed without consultation. Communication was poor or non-existent. Lessons most definitely have not been learnt. Decisions taken in Wales which affected the people of Wales should be scrutinised in Wales.'

And there is additional information to this petition available to Members in their—

I think we've lost Jack for a second. Maybe the connection's gone.

—signatures in the Monmouthshire constituency, and I do now invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Jack, I'm not—sorry, Chair. I'm not sure if you realise that you dropped out there, in this part of the presentation. I don't know if you want to re—

I will. Can you hear me better now?

Yes, that's fine now.

We can hear you. We lost quite a big portion of you there, of you speaking on the petition, so I didn't want to come in.

Diolch. Well, for the record, then, my internet connection seems to be unstable at times, so I will repeat the whole of the petition for the record and start again.

So, it's item 2.2 in the agenda, P-06-1262, 'Welsh Government to hold a public inquiry into decisions taken by them before & during the pandemic'.

'Many loved-ones acquired Covid-19 in hospitals & care homes in Wales. PPE was lacking, staff not tested unless symptomatic, ventilation poor, Covid patients put on non-Covid wards. Many sent home without being retested; spreading infection in the community & subsequently dying. Many had DNRs placed without consultation. Communication was poor or non-existent. Lessons most definitely have not been learnt. Decisions taken in Wales which affected the people of Wales should be scrutinised in Wales.'

And that was submitted by Anna-Louise Marsh-Rees, with 2,116 signatures. I do hope you could hear me better on that occasion. You could. And on that note, I'll invite Members to discuss this petition, bringing in Buffy Williams first.

Thank you, Chair. First, I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing forward this petition. This is a highly emotive subject. I've met the COVID-bereaved families again this morning, so I understand a degree of what they're going through at the moment. I will say that the First Minister has made the Welsh Government's stance on this plain whilst in the Chamber: the Welsh Government has decided that we will be part of the independent inquiry on a UK-wide platform.

I'm not really sure where the Petitions Committee can go now with this petition, so I think the only thing this committee can do at the moment is to thank the petitioner and close this petition, which is quite difficult, actually, to say, because this is a very, very—like I said—emotive subject. But as far as our committee goes, I'm not quite sure where else we can go with this petition.

Thank you, Buffy. Any other comments from other Members? Heledd Fychan.

Thank you. I should state that this an informed opinion from me. I've raised this in the Chamber with the First Minister. I think that there should be an independent inquiry here in Wales, and I've put this on Twitter and so forth. So, just to be completely transparent on that.

I think that it's very difficult to close this petition without writing again with the additional information and the strong feeling expressed. My personal opinion is that we have seen—unlike what the First Minister said in the Chamber recently—the chair of the inquiry confirm that it is Boris Johnson who will be able to make the final terms of reference and change them and so forth, which conflicts with what people thought at the outset. I do think that there is a strong argument in terms of the High Court judgment to ask the Welsh Government to reconsider this in the new context of the additional information that has been provided to us. I would be more comfortable if we as a committee did write to the First Minister to ask him to reconsider the points that have been raised here in the context of the more recent information that has been released.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd. A comment from Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. If I'm honest, I agree with what Heledd has just said, really. I think there's a lot more we can do as a committee and we just need to keep pushing it. So, I agree with Heledd's recommendation, then.

Okay, thank you. Buffy wants to come back in for a final time.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, I agree with Heledd. We could write again to the First Minister. With this, things change very quickly. The information that we're receiving is changing week on week, almost. So, maybe if we could write to the First Minister and get some clarification, then, on his feelings now that new evidence has come to light of what is going to be the UK Government's stance on this, and see what comes back.

Okay, both. Can I thank all Members? There's been an agreement between Members to write back to the First Minister on this. I would say that this is a highly emotive issue, and it has been raised in the Chamber and in other areas a number of times. I think we can write back to the First Minister on this occasion, given the current climate that we're in, but perhaps then this is as far as the committee can take this particular one. But, we'll wait for that response to bring back to the committee at a different date. Are Members in agreement? Yes, I can see they are.

Item 2.3, P-06-1263, 'Control pollution from agriculture in the parts of the Wye and Severn River located in Wales'.

'1. Introduce an immediate moratorium of any new intensive poultry units in the Wye and Severn catchment areas located in Wales.

2. Strictly control manure spreading according to the phosphate load in the ground

3. Monitor phosphate levels

4. Take legal action against any breaches of pollution legislation.'

And there are additional details and information for Members in their packs and again for the public available online. Submitted by Keith Clarke with 118 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition, bringing in Heledd Fychan first. Heledd.

Thank you, Chair. Evidently, this is a great concern in the face of the climate emergency, nature emergency and also biodiversity. Looking at the response of the Minister, she agrees in terms of the concerns about this. Evidently, we see that the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee is looking into the review of the water resources regulations at present, and one of the things that we could do is to write to the Chair of that committee to ask whether the issues that have been raised in this petition could be considered as part of that work. Certainly, I think that it is something that we need to look at given that we are committed as a Senedd to the various crises that I outlined.

Thank you, Heledd, for that suggestion. So, the suggestion is to write to the Chair of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee, Paul Davies, with this petition, and see their comments. I can see Members are in agreement. No further comments? No. Thank you.

Item 2.4, P-06-1268, 'Review the process for pre-assessed status for onshore turbines, which unfairly disadvantages individuals'.

'The current system unfairly favours developers who have access to legal, planning and financial expertise. Individuals/communities don’t have the equivalent support and resources. Decisions regarding wind energy turbines can devastate livelihoods and communities. The process must change to ensure all those potentially affected are informed at the outset of initial discussions, and are provided with free professional planning and legal advice and supported to be able to influence decisions.'

Again, there is additional information available to Members of the committee and members of the public. This was submitted by Non Davies with 515 signatures, and I look to Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Chair. Again, this is another very emotive subject. I think we need to write back to the Minister once again to ask why the guidance and support of the delivery of 'Future Wales' has not yet been published to support the decision making around this subject. I can see that the petitioner feels very strongly about this, and also, in the extra papers we've had, that she feels that she's not been listened to, or they have not been listened to, and that she also has evidence to support her argument. So, I think we need to write once more to the Minister and have extra clarification, then, on why this decision is being continued to be made.

Thank you, Buffy. Any other comments from Members? I can see nodding of agreement. Agreed. Thank you.

Item 3 on today's agenda is updates to previous petitions. Item 3.1, P-05-937, 'STOP BOILING CRUSTACEANS ALIVE (lobsters, crabs, crayfish, prawns etc)'. This was submitted by Cardiff Animal Rights with 2,008 signatures, and I look to bring Members in at this point. We've considered this a number of times now. I think this is the sixth time we've considered this particular petition, but I do look to Members to discuss this petition for the sixth time. Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Chair. Evidently, this is my first time on the committee so it's my first time being part of this debate, but I do see that you have had a number of discussions and given an opportunity for the petitioner to respond, and that they haven't done that on every occasion, if I'm right about that. It is difficult to know how to proceed with this any further as a committee. To be honest, given that there are official discussions happening, it might be time to close this petition now and thank the petitioner.

Diolch, Heledd. I can see Members in agreement with that. I remember speaking about this petition in the fifth Senedd, when I was a member in that Senedd. I can see Members are in agreement with your suggestion. Officials of Welsh Government are engaging with DEFRA on this matter and are following the Bill with interest, it seems. So, on that note, we do thank the petitioner, Cardiff Animal Rights, for submitting and engaging with the petition throughout, but we will thank you and close this petition on that basis.

Item 3.2, P-06-1251, 'Secure the Right to Remote Access for Disabled and Neurodivergent People'. This was submitted by Caley Crahart with 158 signatures. I'll bring Members in at this point to discuss any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing forward this petition, and I'd like to keep this petition open, please, because we're only just now going through part 1 of HEFCW's report, and I think we should wait for the second part before responding to this petition. I know that they're saying that the funding has been set aside, but for us as a committee we need to be in receipt of the full facts before we make a decision on how to go forward with this petition.

Okay. Thank you, Buffy. Heledd Fychan.

I agree entirely with that in terms of keeping the petition open. At present, it is so important. We've also seen in the wake of COVID how technology has facilitated access and I think that one of the things that we need to see is that things don't go missing, or things don't get lost now as we return to normal, and in order to ensure equitable access for people to every service, including education.

Thank you, Heledd. I can see Joel nodding in agreement to both Buffy and Heledd there. So, we will take that forward.

Item 3.3, P-06-1173, 'Give legal protection to designated Special Landscape Areas in Wales'. This was submitted by Vale Communities for Future Generations, with 416 signatures, and I will invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions the committee may wish to take. Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, Chair. Certainly, we've had a very specific response from the Minister about this, saying that she is confident that the SLA policy is appropriate, as she mentioned. I think that this is extremely important, but I'm not sure what we can do further, more than thank the petitioner—it has been raised with the Minister—and close the petition on this issue.

Thank you for that suggestion. Are Members in agreement? Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I think technically, I'm still a councillor until the close of play today, I think, but I don't really know. And I just wanted to say that I agree with Heledd, I don't think there's much that can be done. But the thing is, from my own experience of special landscape areas, they don't necessarily mean much to council planners. We've had a number of planning applications in my area that have an SLA on them, and they can be so easily overcome. I do think if there's anything we could do just re-emphasise: they're called special landscape areas for a reason. It's so frustrating when you're dealing with council planners that they're not as robust as they should be, I don't think. But as I say, I think that's probably a matter for us to pick up as constituency or regional Members, as opposed to a committee. Thank you.

Diolch, Councillor James, for one final time, for those comments. I would agree with your outcome there, and Heledd's as well. This probably is a matter for regional or constituency Members and councillors, newly elected or re-elected, of certain individual councils. So, we'll thank the petitioner and close the petition there.

Item 3.4, P-06-1201, 'Ban the shooting of critically endangered birds...give them the protection they so desperately need'. This was submitted by Robert Curtis, having collected a total of 122 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. As I mentioned at the start of the meeting, I'm a member of BASC, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, and I know they've been written to as part of the process with this. I've followed this petition quite closely, and as mentioned in the previous debate, the evidence isn't there, really, to support that shooting is having an impact on these numbers. If anything, the evidence that is there is to do with climate change and loss of habitat, and as I mentioned in a previous meeting, I don't go shooting—I used to do clay pigeon shooting—but when you speak to those who do, these birds are almost impossible to hit; these birds aren't shot. And so I think from looking at it, obviously, we should thank the petitioner, but I don't think there's much more than that can be done, and I would recommend that we close the petition.

Thank you, Joel. Any comments from Members? Heledd.

The only thing that did concern me was the fact that we did vote as a Senedd, as I said, with an earlier petition, in terms of the climate, nature and biodiversity emergency, and I think the fact that it's noted acknowledges that there's a need to review legislation, but no plans to do so. Well, if we're in an emergency, surely we should be looking at this, also with the RSPB response as well. I agree, as a Petitions Committee perhaps we can't, but I think there is something about, perhaps, urging the Minister that that review needs to happen as part of our response to the biodiversity emergency, whilst closing the petition, because we can't take it further as a committee.

Joel James, one final time.

Thank you, Chair. I agree with what Heledd said about the climate emergency response, but I'm keen that, if we do do anything in terms of writing to the Minister, we shouldn't necessarily implicate shooting in that; it's a completely separate issue, then. So, if it's about loss of habitat or climate change, I'm happy for that, but I don't necessarily think we should imply, then, that shooting is having an impact on that. Thank you.

Thanks, Joel. Thanks, Heledd. It seems to me that we can note Heledd's comments for the record. I don't think we need a letter from the committee to go to the Minister; I think we can note that for the record. Perhaps it's for individual Members to bring this up during Plenary business on either a Tuesday or Wednesday, and that we then close the petition due to the facts we've heard this afternoon. Do Members agree? Yes, I can see they do.

Item 3.5, P-06-1218, 'Notify all 18 year olds who have been under social care the right to request their personal information', submitted by Victoria Pritchard, with 260 signatures. And I'd like to invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing this petition forward. As you know, we've been speaking to care leavers on another subject over the last few weeks, and never before have I realised the importance that care leavers get the correct information, and as much information as they possibly can, to ensure that when they do leave care, they are fully armed with the information they need to continue with their lives fully. As you know, we've discovered that is not happening.

I'm pleased that the Minister is going to write to all local authorities to ensure that they know that it is important that care leavers have this information going forward. I would like to close the petition, but I would also like to be assured that the Minister will definitely be writing to all the local authorities, not just making sure that they have this information, but all the information that is relevant to them to go forward with their lives. I think that it is very important, especially with everything that we're doing on making sure that young people have a voice, that care leavers have a voice. I think it's really important that we, as a committee, ensure that we are doing the right thing for our young people, and in doing the right thing that care leavers get the information that they need going forward.

Thank you, Buffy. I can see nodding from Members there. Is the suggestion to write back to the Minister one final time?

Yes, please.

Okay. So, the suggestion is to write back to the Minister one final time, perhaps asking for a deadline of when she—[Inaudible.]—to the local authorities by. Buffy, is the suggestion is to close the petition once that letter is sent—

Yes, please.

—or do you want to wait for a response?

If we could wait for a response, I think, and then close the petition.

Okay. Gareth.

Would that be okay?

Can I just clarify, are we asking for a copy of the letter that she's hoping to send to local authorities?

Yes, please. If we could a copy of the letter, that would be perfect. Yes.

Okay. Fine. That seems like a neat way of doing it.

Okay, thank you for that. I can see Members are in agreement. They are.

Moving on to 3.6, P-06-1222, 'Ban disposable barbecues from our National Parks, National Nature Reserves and Welsh beaches!', submitted by Robert Curtis, with 223 signatures. I will bring in Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. And as I said in the last meeting, I've always got concerns about petitions that call for the banning of something without the evidence there. And obviously, we've then written off to the various consultees that we know—Natural Resources Wales and North Wales Fire and Rescue Service—and they've all come back to say that barbecues have a very minimal impact on the overall figures of fires and everything. And they're also concerned, then, about how such a ban would be enforced and policed, and I think that's a concern that I would have, then, as well, really, because I think that that would be virtually impossible to enforce. And with that, my gut's just telling me that we could thank the petitioner for raising this issue, look into ways that we could encourage people to use these disposable barbecues far more sensibly and then also to dispose of them properly, and then, maybe, just to close the petition, really.

I think that there is some merit in raising the petition in the first place in terms of people who are using them irresponsibly and just leaving them there, especially on the beaches. I know of stories where people have left barbecues on the beach and then just covered them up with sand and then people have walked on them, and in some cases, children, and have burnt themselves quite badly as a result. And I definitely think that that's more the thing for re-education—to try and push that, rather than just to ban them completely. That's my opinion, anyway.

Thank you, Joel. I think that the suggestion from Joel there was to close the petition, but to clearly send a message from the Senedd Petitions Committee, the voice of the people of Wales, to use disposable barbecues in a safe way this summer and to dispose of them properly, ensuring that safety comes first, and that everyone can enjoy the national parks and our wonderful nature reserves and beaches across Wales. And we send that message strongly to anyone living in Wales or anyone who visits Wales. Are Members content? They are.

Item 3.7, P-06-1161, 'Routine collection and publication of data of how many babies/children return to their care experienced parents care at the end of a Parent and Child Placement'. This was submitted by Nicola Jones, with 60 signatures. And before I bring Members in to discuss this petition, it's worth noting that Buffy Williams and I visited Voices from Care Cymru some weeks ago now to meet with care-experienced parents and hear their views and thoughts in an eye-opening evidence and engagement session with them. I'd like to put on record my personal thanks and the thanks of the committee for allowing us the time and giving us the time that not only have they had with us, but also with our citizen engagement manager, Steven Williams, who has just joined us on the screen now. On that point, I'll invite Members to come in first. Buffy Williams, would you like to lead us?

Thank you, Chair. I'd just like to reiterate what you said there about when we visited Voices from Care Cymru—it was a real eye-opener, and left me feeling quite sad, really, to think that we're not—. It almost feels like we're not doing all we can to ensure that care leavers are getting all the support that they need when they do leave the care setting.

I'd like to thank the petitioner for bringing this petition forward. I see that the Minister has suggested that we contact the local authorities to see if they can do a trawl of the relevant data that could inform us of how many babies are returned to their care-leaver parents. So, I think that that is something that we could do as part of our inquiry. I think we also have the Deputy Minister for Social Services attending one of our meetings, so that is something that we can speak to her directly about as well.

I think that it's really important that we have this information, going forward, so that we know exactly how many babies are returned to care leavers. Because the Minister has referred to the way that children's services are being radically reformed to ensure that children are kept with their parents. So, we don't know if that is happening if we don't have that information. How do we know how many families are kept together if we don't know how many babies are returned to their care-leaver parents? So, I think it's really important that we have clarification on this. And if it's not happening, why isn't it happening? Why isn't this data being collected? Why don't we know how many babies or children are being removed and then not returned? I think it's really important that we have this information. And if the babies or children are not being returned, why are they not being returned? What is the reason there? Is there not enough support being given to the young person or the care leaver? You know, these are questions that we as a committee need answers to.

Thank you, Buffy. I will bring Steven in just briefly to discuss some of the engagement sessions he's been doing on behalf of the committee. I think it's worth noting that we have, as Buffy said, invited the Deputy Minister in, who intends to look at radically reforming services for children who are looked after and care leavers. So, hopefully we can scrutinise the Minister a little bit on what she intends to do there, and we are waiting for that information. But, Steven, do you want to briefly just discuss the work that you've been doing on behalf of the committee? The committee as a whole will discuss further the outcomes and the findings of that in a private session later on.

Yes, no problem at all. There'll be a full engagement report written off the back of this, which will be shared with committee members ahead of your next meeting, but I'll give you a really brief overview of some of the work that we did. We ran four focus groups altogether across Wales. We ran two in south Wales, which the Chair attended. We also ran two in north Wales—one up in Chester Zoo, and I strongly recommend that committee run all future sessions near a zoo—which really helped the engagement.

We worked with 24 parents altogether—20 females, four males—and what we were looking to get out of the sessions was to really understand a little bit more about young people's experience of having a child whilst in care. We also wanted to know if they felt fully supported, what the practical and emotional support was like. We wanted to know what the quality of support was like from local authorities, third sector and others, and whether they met the needs of those young people. It was a very emotive topic, as you can imagine. It was very hard for the young people to share their stories, and quite hard to listen to as well, so I thank everybody who took part.

There were three key overarching themes that came through. One quite key theme was the relationship they had with social services, which was very poor. There was a lot of anger in that room about the relationships they had with social services. A quote that came through was, 'They're not always truthful with what they say. They tell me to be honest and open, but then, on the other hand, they use everything and anything you say against you.' There was some praise for individual social workers, but on the whole, there was a lot of anger in the room about the relationship they had with social services, and that was across different authorities.

Linked into that is the assumptions, I think, that get made about these young people, and I think that came through really clearly, from social services, but also in some cases from the NHS. Another example, a quote I'll say, was, 'I had some wine in the kitchen since Christmas. The social worker found it and poured it straight down the sink and said, "If you carry on like this, you'll end up like your mum." I hadn't even opened it yet; they assumed I was a drinker, and I wasn't.' There are countless quotes that support those kinds of findings, that there are assumptions that get made straightaway about these young people.

The third theme that really struck home was the emotional trauma that some of these young people have experienced. Again, this came through really strongly. Several people mentioned the impact it had on their mental health, the mental health of the children. A quote that was really hard to hear about was, 'It's horrible, just horrible. It's hell seeing your child getting taken away from you. It makes me feel sick now even thinking about it. My mental health is horrendous.' And there was another story about one of the young mothers who became pregnant again. Because of the experience she had had previously, she was seriously contemplating whether to move forward with the pregnancy or not, and that was linked in to the previous experiences that she'd had. So, a very tough listen, to listen to these focus groups.

Thank you for that, Steven, and thank you for all the work you have done, and your colleagues have done, on behalf of the committee members and the clerking team as well. We await your final report with interest, and, clearly, it will inform our work. At the start of this Senedd, at the start of this new committee, we did say that we wanted to engage with all members of Welsh society from all parts of Wales, and I think it's important to highlight for the record the work we have done behind the scenes on this particular petition. We do thank you for that. And, of course, we thank those who have taken part and given their time to discuss such difficult issues and what they faced throughout their lives. We are very grateful as a committee, and we do thank them.

Item 4 on today's agenda is papers to note. There are two papers today, and they are in Members' packs: 4.1, P-05-1000, 'Make it compulsory for Black and POC UK histories to be taught in the Welsh education curriculum' and 4.2, P-05-1080, 'Introduce anti-racist teaching materials to children in schools in Wales to reduce hate crimes'. Are Members content to note those papers to the committee? Yes, I can see they are.

That moves us on to item 5, and it does mean that we have concluded today's public business. We will now go into private session. I do propose, therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee now resolves to meet in private for item 6. Are Members content? They are content. Thank you very much. The committee will next meet on 23 May, and we look forward to that session. Can I thank everyone who has submitted a petition or signed a petition; again, the clerking team for the excellent work they do and the background team; and, of course, Heledd Fychan for joining us, substituting for Luke Fletcher? It was great to have you, and you're welcome any time. On that note, diolch yn fawr, meeting closed.