Local Government and Housing Committee

The next item on the agenda today is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from items 4 and 8 on our agenda today. Is committee content to do so? Thank you very much. We will then move to private session.

Welcome, everybody, back to committee. We've reached item 5, then, and this is our first evidence session on the committee's inquiry into housing Ukrainian refugees. And I'm very pleased as well that we've been joined by Sarah Murphy from the Equality and Social Justice Committee, which obviously has a keen interest in these matters also. So, let me welcome, then—joining us remotely along with Sarah—Naomi Alleyne, director of social services and housing for the Welsh Local Government Association; Gaynor Toft, interim head of housing and public protection services for Pembrokeshire County Council; and Anne Hubbard, manager of the Wales Strategic Migration Partnership. So, thank you, all, very much for joining us today. Perhaps I might begin with quite a general question, really, which is just to seek your views on the support available for refugees from Ukraine. What are your views on the approach taken in Wales; for example, whether the welcome-centre model is effective, and whether you perceive any gaps currently? Who would like to begin? Yes, Anne.

Thank you. So, I think, in general terms, the welcome-centre model is very effective. It's been proven in several different contexts that frontloading support for new arrivals into a country can be very effective. We saw that in action with the evacuation of people from Afghanistan, from Kabul, into the bridging sites in Cardiff. So, when people arrive at the centres, they're given well-being assessments; referrals to mental health or specialist services can be facilitated. I'm aware that there is also support for front-line professionals at those centres. Traumatic Stress Wales have developed a video, for example, which gives an overview of the kinds of reactions they can expect from people who've arrived who've been through very difficult experiences and difficult journeys. So, the video talks to them about the principles of providing psychological support and first aid. All arrivals into Wales are given other details of mental health services, for example, the 24-hour mental health helpline that's available—the Community Advice and Listening Line helpline. I mean, there are barriers for refugees and asylum seekers in accessing mental health services, but I'm aware that in the response to Ukraine, councils, Welsh Government and third sector partners have done their utmost to make sure that people do receive the support that they need.

Okay. Thank you, Anne. Gaynor.

Diolch. Thank you. From an operational, local authority perspective, then, obviously, as soon as the crisis emerged and it was obvious that a response was needed, some of the first lines of entry, really, were through the Homes for Ukraine scheme. So, as far as the local authority is concerned, we've more or less integrated the principles of our civil contingencies response framework with a nominated gold lead, and then we have a silver multi-agency group that meets on a twice-weekly basis. That group has been invaluable, really, in pulling together the local authority response as well as the community response and the third sector response. We've also got bronze cells that look specifically at things like accommodation, safeguarding, community cohesion, employment opportunities, education and so on. So, all that information—we meet on a weekly basis and that's drawn together into that silver group.

As far as the role of the local authorities are concerned, obviously, in Pembrokeshire, we've got the two arrival hubs. We've got the two ports, so we've got the arrival hubs established in the area. We've established the processes as far as undertaking property inspections and the safeguarding checks and so on, but I won't go into the detail as a general overview. But, obviously, it's the case that the local authority, the third sector, local private employers and that community support, really, and the community response has really kicked in once again in terms of that response to this crisis.

As far as the approach for Wales, we welcome the approach, obviously. We are dealing primarily, at the moment, with the Homes for Ukraine access for Ukrainians into the country, but, obviously, as the welcome centres have established themselves and as the visas now are being issued, as far as the welcome centre—the supersponsor route—is concerned, we are also seeing that demand, then, and need for move-on accommodation through that route as well. So, obviously, we're ratcheting up our response as far as that issue is concerned.

When you ask about whether there are any gaps, I think the concern is, really, from an operational capacity perspective in relation to our continued response to the crisis. We've established a team of outreach workers, for example, as well as housing advice seconded into roles to try and meet that need of providing the necessary support to the Ukrainians as they arrive in the country and are placed with our sponsors. So, it's that operational capacity that identifies as a gap.

Availability of accommodation: I'm sure we will discuss that again during our session, but, really, we've got this acute shortage of move-on accommodation. We've been overwhelmed, obviously, and grateful for the response from sponsors offering up their accommodation, but it is questionable in relation to the long-term sustainability of that, and that's the concern that we also have. Thank you.

Thank you, Gaynor. As you say, we'll come on to other matters in due course. Naomi, did you want to add anything at this stage? No, you're quite happy. Okay.

Could I just ask one further question, then, before we move on to other committee members? That's the Welsh Government's decision to pause the application process for supersponsors; whether you think that is the right decision, whether you think there are any particular actions that should be taken during the pause, and how long the pause should last for.

I'll come in on that, Chair. Thank you. I think, firstly, to say that we weren't consulted on the pause per se. We were informed, as were other people, but then the Minister did meet with leaders and cabinet members to discuss the pause, the purpose of that, and what we hoped to achieve during that time.

We haven't had a chance to discuss with members, so this is based on some of our experience and knowledge so far, but I think it is a sensible approach to just allow us to regroup and to make sure that we've got the arrangements in place and that the arrangements are working well.

I think the arrivals have happened a little bit faster than we anticipated, so it's about being able to just take a little bit of a pause and regroup. Because what we're very keen on—I think Anne made the point and Gaynor reinforced that—is that people arriving in Wales receive a very structured and warm welcome, so that the support that we provide, the wraparound support, isn't just around a roof over their head, if you like, but we're looking at their other needs and addressing that in a broad way. So, the pause enables us to make sure that we're planning accordingly, moving forward.

I don't think we have any view on the time per se; obviously, we're seeing how it goes. But we are taking advantage, with Welsh Government, to relook at some of the processes, see how we can streamline some of those steps that may be needed, just to make sure that particularly the move on—the flow through the system of people in the welcome centres back out to hosts or to other accommodation—is actually working well. So, it gives us an opportunity to pause and review, I think, and make sure our planning arrangements are all working as they should to make sure we do provide appropriate support to everybody who arrives in Wales.

Okay, thank you very much, Naomi. Would either Anne or Gaynor like to add any thoughts on those matters?

I don't think I have anything to add, thank you, Chair.

No. Okay, thank you very much. We'll move on then to Mabon.

I'll be speaking in Welsh, so I'll just check that the interpretation is working with everyone. Excellent. Thank you very much. We've heard from the news today, if you listen to Radio Cymru, about the Urdd welcome centre. The Urdd is once again pulling its weight and doing excellent work. But the six-month period in terms of that accommodation is now drawing to a close, and a new home will need to be found for the people in that accommodation to move on to. What role do local authorities have in ensuring that there is a home available, that there's a roof above people from Ukraine who are looking for accommodation who are leaving these centres? And are you aware of those who now see themselves as homeless? If I can ask Gaynor to start, please.

Thank you very much for the question.

In that regard, we are working closely with the Welsh Government and the welcome centres. We have got an 'expression-of-interest list', as we call it, then, in relation to those offers of sponsorship accommodation that have been put forward. So, each local authority has received that expression-of-interest list for likely sponsors, and we are working through those lists in a prioritised way with the intention of putting these expressions of interest through to Welsh Government and the welcome centres themselves, really, in relation to likely matching of households from the welcome centres.

So, as Naomi sort of alluded to in the last answer to the question, we are working in terms of streamlining that process in terms of making sure that there is that steady stream of placements from the welcome centres into the local-authority-sponsored placements. We are needing additional sponsor offers because we anticipate that the lists that we've got—we are having to use those lists to rematch when placements are falling down as well. So, we are quickly working through those lists to try and identify which can be matched to those coming from welcome centres and where we are having to rematch when there are existing placements that are breaking down.

So, as I said, the route that we are prioritising currently is through the sponsor route, then, because that is the most available accommodation that we've got. We are also, obviously, discussing with local landlords, as well as ourselves as social landlords, to try and see what available accommodation we do have. But, as you're aware, we do have significant homeless pressures as well, with a significant number of people in temporary accommodation who are homeless. So, there are pressures across many fronts as far as the need for social as well as affordable housing is concerned locally. We are seeing, as I said, breakdowns of the sponsor placements already. For example, we’ve had half a dozen happen in Pembrokeshire already, so we are having to find a rematch for those placements to make sure that the flow and the welfare of the Ukrainians are safeguarded.

Thank you, Gaynor. Before I ask Naomi or Anne, Gaynor, you say that there’s a breakdown in that relationship that’s happened between some of the sponsors. Why? What’s the cause of that? Is it because you haven’t done your work in identifying those sponsors, or have the sponsors not understood the duties upon them? What’s the reason for this breakdown?

There are several reasons.

There have been multiple reasons, really. Some of them have been because they want to move out of the area—they would prefer to be near the city lights, so to speak, and not to be in Pembrokeshire, or they’ve got family members who might be placed elsewhere across the country, or even in England. Sometimes, for the sponsors, it’s more of a challenge than what they did at first anticipate, so there could be some personality clashes, for example, that could exist. So, there is that multitude of reasons. And the other reason is that the property make-up, potentially, in terms of the numbers of bedrooms, isn't exactly what they would have hoped for. So, although, obviously, we do a lot of work in trying to prevent some of this happening in terms of the conversations that we have with the sponsors, together with the outreach worker support, the caseworker support that we are providing as well, and we do try and make sure that that doesn’t happen, or is avoided in the first instance, it is inevitable that that does occur.

Thank you, Gaynor. If we can go back to the first question with you, Naomi, in terms of the local authorities, and are there people from Ukraine presenting themselves as homeless, or maybe you want to contribute on the last point that was made.

Thank you. I think it’s also important to differentiate between some of the different schemes. There's the Welsh Government supersponsor scheme, the Homes for Ukraine scheme, but, as I’m sure you’re aware, under the family visa scheme, we don’t receive any data about people arriving in local authority areas. So, obviously local authorities are also, then, looking at which schemes people have come through, because, as Gaynor said, with the people who have arrived under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, we are, if there was a breakdown, looking to rematch those with other sponsors that may have come forward. But with those in the family visa scheme, because of the difference, sometimes they’re the people we’re finding are homeless, because you can’t rematch them into a different scheme. So, the differentials between the schemes mean that different support can be provided, or different options around how we can support that, because I think one of our concerns, obviously, as Gaynor said, is the high number of people already in temporary accommodation, so we would like to avoid the homeless route for this cohort of people if at all possible.

One of the other issues we might come on to is around location. Some people in the welcome centres would like to be accommodated in England. So, those cross-border issues are something that we need to address, because obviously that’s from different local authority areas. So, while there’s agreement within Wales that people can be accommodated outside the welcome centre local authority area, if you like, when people are looking to go cross border we do need to get some of those arrangements in place. I think it’s just reinforcing Gaynor’s point that a lot of work is being done with families and guests to look at what their needs are so we can try and best meet their needs in the first instance, but obviously, accommodation is one of the biggest challenges for us in this scheme, both in terms of the location, the type of accommodation and providing accommodation across all different cohorts that are actually requiring accommodation at this time.

Thank you, Naomi. Before we go on to Anne, you said something very interesting at the start there, for my mind at least, in terms of the lack of data—that data isn’t kept with some of these programmes, like the supersponsor and Homes for Ukraine, and authorities don’t necessarily know who’s coming in. Who's responsible for that? Why is there no clear data being kept?

There is clear data on the Homes for Ukraine scheme and the Welsh Government's supersponsor scheme; that is shared from the department for levelling up to Welsh Government, who share that then with local authorities. There is no data that's available about people who arrive under the family visa scheme. So, local authorities don't receive information around people who have had successful visas in their area or who may have arrived in that time. Some authorities become aware of that because people are going to the authorities for help and support, but generally there is no data available, as we understand, that can be shared with local authorities for those who arrive under the family visa scheme.

And what's the split in terms of the numbers coming in under these different schemes? How many come under the family visa scheme and how many come in under the Homes for Ukraine scheme?

I haven't got the figures to hand. I think, when I was looking last, it was about 2,000 under the Homes for Ukraine scheme in Wales, and about 1,000 under the supersponsorship scheme. But, again, we don't have any figures whatsoever on the number of people who have arrived under the family visa scheme.

Okay. Thank you, Naomi. Anne.

Thank you very much. I don't really have much to add to what Gaynor and Naomi said on the homelessness issue, except that later on perhaps we'll come to a question around the wider pressures on councils and other cohorts of people that we're looking to support and the impacts on those schemes following our need to respond to Ukraine, if that's okay.

Excellent. Thank you. You have raised the point that a number of people who are coming here perhaps don't wish to be in Wales; they want to be in England or don't wish to be in a rural area. Are we clear, then, that the places that we do offer are fit for purpose, and do we have a sufficient number of houses and sponsors in the places that are most suitable for Ukrainian refugees? Gaynor.

Shall I come in there? Diolch. In terms of the property list, the sponsor list that we have coming through to us as local authorities, as I said, we work through the list. Obviously, Pembrokeshire is a rural area, so we do have a number of offers that have come from rural locations. We definitely don't rule those out. We do still continue with determining their suitability, but not only from a standards perspective in terms of that property condition, but also in terms of its accessibility: is it on a bus route? If it's not, again, it's not necessarily ruled out. We have that conversation, then, with the sponsor to understand what support is available to those families who might be placed there—or not necessarily families, households who might be placed there. And if we are satisfied that there is sufficient support that is being made available to them, then there definitely is a consideration of putting it forward as a potential suitable sponsor route.

We have had a number of offers for a certain community in a rural location, for example, in Pembrokeshire, and that community has come together to arrange, to decide between them, that they would be running coffee mornings, they'll be available to provide transport for these individuals. So, it's definitely not something that we turn away, if it's an offer from a rural location, we just make sure that we do investigate and do a bit more digging around, really, in terms of exactly what is available from an accessibility perspective for those who might be placed there. We've also got an active community hub in Pembrokeshire as well and a network of community organisations. So, obviously, we're drawing very heavily on that network to actually provide the support that we need. Sorry, Naomi, I saw your hand up. Thank you.

It's okay. Just building on that, obviously it is important that no one area is overpressured in terms of some of those responses to the broad schemes that we are looking at. So, as Gaynor was saying, a lot of it is around the conversations, looking at people's aspirations, what they're looking for. And certainly, through the Afghan scheme, people wanted to go to some of those rural areas. So, what we need to do is actually make sure that we're giving information about areas to people—what the assets are, what the transport links are, employment opportunities—so that we can, if you like, have people accommodated all across different parts of Wales, rather than just expecting some areas to provide the majority of the accommodation. But again, that does require us to work together collectively so that we can very much highlight the benefits of all areas of Wales.

Thank you. I see Anne's hand up there.

I just wanted to summarise what was said here. I think sustainable placements are at the forefront of all of our minds, and we certainly had a conversation on that today with a very big audience of councils and other public services around how we can achieve that. So, those are some of the things that we'll be looking at during this pause. And I'm just minded of a conversation I had with somebody who's done a lot of work, who's actually Romanian but he'd been out to Ukraine in recent months, and he talked about the need to build communities of people following the example of the second world war. I'd really like to hear more from Ukrainians living in Wales about how we can best support them. Thank you.

Do you have an idea of what the shortfall is in terms of the numbers of sponsors or the numbers of homes that we need, compared with the numbers from Ukraine who do want to come or who need to be welcomed here in Wales?

Do you want me to cover that? I'm sorry that I have to talk about it from a local perspective, but just to give you perhaps the scale from a local authority perspective, within Pembrokeshire we have 130 households in temporary accommodation for homeless people. We're already welcoming between 50 and 70 households from Homes for Ukraine, and then the allocation through the welcome centre supersponsor scheme will be above that.

Obviously, we have to overlay, really, in relation to what happens after six months as far as those placements are concerned, both under Homes for Ukraine and for the supersponsor scheme. So, you can very quickly see where we might be well into the 200 mark, really, in terms of potential units of accommodation, if not more, that we are needing to look at sourcing, just for Pembrokeshire.

So, these are some of the figures that we are grappling with, because it is a bit of crystal ball gazing at the moment because we don't know how many will want to remain in Pembrokeshire. So, it is very difficult for us to gauge at the moment, but I think we are looking at those sorts of figures, then, obviously, times 22 across the region.

Mabon, I think we'll have to move on. Time is, as ever, limited. Jayne Bryant.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you all for coming in today to give us evidence. What you've given us so far is a real insight into what's happening. I was just firstly wondering about how significant an issue safeguarding of Ukrainian refugees is, and how is that being monitored. Naomi, you've mentioned about the different schemes already this morning, and the difficulty with that. Perhaps you can just say a little bit about the safeguarding and not having all the information of all the families that are here in Wales.

Thank you. I would say that safeguarding has been a significant concern and source of discussion amongst Welsh Government and local authorities right from the start of our discussions around this scheme. It is something that we haven't necessarily done at pace and scale previously across the UK. So, ensuring that people were safeguarded on their arrival has been subject to significant conversations, particularly given that—. I think it's an estimate that about 80 per cent of people who've arrived are women and children. So, safeguarding has been an underpinning consideration, and something that authorities have taken very, very seriously, erring on the side of caution, it has to be said, here. So, if there were any queries or concerns around safeguarding, they were followed up. It wasn't, 'We'll just see how that goes'. They were addressed, they were fed into discussions with Welsh Government or other colleagues around how we can ensure the safeguarding in individual circumstances. Because I think that's the other point to say: every single person who's arrived and their families have individual circumstances that do need to be taken into account in terms of safeguarding.

So, Welsh Government has put out its guidance and advice, and, again, engaged with authorities in the development of that, and it has been revised and reviewed as we learn and our experience tells us of different issues that we need to address. Welsh Government—. There's also training for hosts in terms of online training in terms of safeguarding from their own point of view, and I know some authorities also provide direct training around that for hosts, and avenues and information for guests in terms of who they are to contact if there are any safeguarding concerns. So, it's not to say that they won't arise, but I can guarantee there has been significant concern.

That does lead then to the concerns—and we have written, the WLGA wrote to the UK Government—around the family visa scheme and the lack of data or information that flows to local authorities from that scheme. Because, in the way that local authorities are proactive in their safeguarding checks for those who arrive under the supersponsorship scheme or the Homes for Ukraine scheme, we cannot undertake the same safeguarding checks for those that arrive under the family visa scheme.

So, it is a concern to us. There is no information that flows, or data, but there's also no funding that flows to authorities or public services for that support, even though most of the support that's required will be very much the same. We only discussed—. As Anne said, we have a meeting with all the local authorities and Welsh Government every Wednesday morning, and this morning we had somebody there from the Disclosure and Barring Service, just explaining and going through some of the processes and the contract that's been put in place now so that we can try and speed up those DBS checks. So, they are a source of constant discussion amongst local authorities and Welsh Government in ensuring that we maintain those high standards of safeguarding.

Thank you, Naomi. I'm just wondering—. You just mentioned about the DBS checks and the issues around trying to speed that up, really. Can you just say about the amount of time that's taking at the moment and if those home visits are taking place, and if there are any other ideas that you'd have about how to improve that side of it, to ensure that safeguarding is really absolutely right at the forefront of everybody's minds?

I'll hand over to Gaynor, if that's okay, particularly from that local authority experience point of view in terms of working through and with the DBS service.

Lovely, thanks. Thanks, Gaynor.

Okay, thank you. On those safeguarding and DBS checks, I think we've developed a process—. Powys County Council, for example, are undertaking the DBS checks on our behalf. They are the regional lead on it, and in fairness to them they have been doing an admirable job. The process has sped up, so it is a matter of days now that we are able to get those checks pushed through.

As far as our internal safeguarding checks are concerned, we have got a panel that meets. For example, when we have identified any matters of concern, then we have a panel approach in terms of escalating those in order to decide whether that sponsor arrangement should actually proceed or otherwise. So, we do have instances where we have actually turned down sponsor offers.

From a property check perspective, again, we are undertaking—each and every one of those visits are undertaken. We've again looked at having a consistent approach across Wales in terms of ensuring that it's a relatively light-touch approach as far as those property assessments are concerned, to make sure that those properties are safe for Ukrainians to be placed there, but we're also mindful that it is somebody's home in very common areas as well. So, obviously, it is that balance of respecting that, but making sure that those placements are safe as well in terms of any hazards within the homes.

So, in relation to after those placements have happened, as I say, we do monitor placements as well. We do have the caseworker role. So, in terms of that communication with Ukrainians and sponsors after they've been placed, we have got that line of communication that does happen. So, when we do see scenarios where we're not concerned either from a safeguarding or from a property safety perspective, we do have that escalation mechanism in place, so that we can make sure that those placements are safe. So, that's about it. Thank you.

Thank you. We know that many young people have been in limbo, really, in Ukraine, waiting for visas, and there are reports that the UK Government are likely to allow under-18s to come to the UK unaccompanied if they have written permission from parents or guardians. And I was just thinking about the safeguarding issues around that as well and what sort of measures you be putting in place, anticipating that that is likely to happen.

Naomi.

We've been involved in some discussions with Welsh Government over the past, I don't know, 10 days, and there's still some more detail—there isn't the detailed guidance yet about how the scheme would operate in practice. [Interruption.] Sorry, my eye is watering.

Safeguarding will be the main concern there with unaccompanied minors as well. There are some steps that are being discussed around how they will be safeguarded, having a notarised note, for example, from parents or guardians, and making sure those checks are done, enhanced DBS checks.

But, I think, until we see the detailed guidance, it's difficult to comment without knowing exactly how the scheme will operate. But, again, safeguarding will be the main concern there. And it's not just around checks for people arriving, but making sure that there's ongoing engagement between those children and young people and local authorities and other public services.

Yes, absolutely.

And, again, making sure that they, probably, have good access to advocacy services as well. So, I think, from our point of view, we certainly would want to make sure that any unaccompanied minors arriving in Wales have a very structured, well organised and understood process, with safeguarding at its heart.

Absolutely.

All right, Jayne? I think we might have to move on at this stage.

Yes, that's fine.

Thanks, Jayne. Sam.

Thanks, Chair, and thanks, all, for your time this morning. You've probably answered a bunch of the questions that I was going to ask around support for sponsors. But, in a written response from the Minister to this committee around support, the Minister said that the Welsh Government are working with the third sector to provide information sessions, training and peer support sessions for hosts. I'm just wondering whether you're seeing much evidence of that, and whether it's fulfilling the needs that you think hosts have at the moment.

Do you want me to come in on that one?

Yes please, Anne.

Well, just to say I am aware of the commitment of Welsh Government to provide that training for hosts, but I'm not aware of the extent to which that's been rolled out. I'm sorry about that. I know that sessions have been made available by various different charities, including Reset, and they've had fairly wide take-up, but I can't comment on the extent to which Welsh Government's support processes have been rolled out yet. I think it's the really early days of that.

It may be that these do differ as well at the local level, in terms of the arrangements local authorities would have had in place, and how the third sector will work with them and complement that. I think one of the issues—. Well, one of the things that I think is very positive is the work that local authorities and the third sector did together around the shielding scheme, and that set great store in being able to look at the assets and the values of what local authorities were undertaking and how the third sector support and provide other wraparound support around that.

I know, through the WLGA, we have met with the local authority lead officers for the third sector, and we meet weekly with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action as well around those types of issues. So, I know there's some plans now to roll out, over the next couple of weeks, some of the work that they will be leading on. And, again, just going back to the previous issue, for the work from the third sector as well, safeguarding is one of their key concerns, and, even in terms of things like the activities that they want to arrange for people, being able to ensure that safeguarding is addressed in there, in informal and formal ways, is also a concern for the third sector as well.

Thanks. I'm conscious that time is going, so I'm just going to canter through a couple of other bits. So, in terms of that partnership working, yes, with local authorities, with third sector, but also around health services, in particular, for mental health support and trauma support as well, are you seeing much evidence of that access into our health services being made available to support refugees that we're welcoming?

I'm aware that, in all of the welcome centres, and when people arrive in authorities, well-being assessments are carried out and the appropriate referrals are made into mental health or other services. How long people may have to wait for support, I'm not entirely clear.

Can I just come in on that as well? Because I think some of—. Gaynor mentioned some of the capacity issues local authorities are experiencing, and I think there are some issues with health as well, in terms of some of their capacity to provide some of the screening services. There have been some concerns, because, obviously, some children, I think above the age of 11, will need to be screened for TB before entering school. And again, I know there was concern in some areas around the time that was taking, because the children are so keen to join schools, and, with the TB, if that was delayed a bit, the parents were getting a bit frustrated and the children were getting disappointed.

So, there is a framework for the health services in terms of that. I think there are capacity issues for the health service to ensure that they can provide services in the timely fashion that people do require. But, again, it's about that communication and working together. And I think what has been really helpful is that weekly engagement with Welsh Government means that those issues are regularly fed in from an operational point of view, for the Welsh Government to take back and address. So, I know the issues around some of the capacity across other public services are already being picked up as well.

And now, just really quickly, and perhaps a brief response as well, part of my concern, of course, is that, very sadly, the war out in Ukraine is continuing and is likely to continue for a long time. So, have you had an indication from Government as to the length of the support that they will be providing to local authorities to provide the support that's needed for refugees? I don't know whether, Naomi, you're best placed to respond to that; I don't know.

At the moment, the funding is only confirmed for a year. That is different to some of the other refugee schemes, where you had a tariff that has been for a number of years, even though it declines in future years. But, at the moment, there is only funding that's confirmed for the first year.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Thanks, Sam. Carolyn.

Okay. Thanks. Thank you for attending today. My question was about funding as well. So, just in your opinion, is the funding from both Governments—UK Government and Welsh Government—sufficient, and do you believe that it's being used adequately as well? And is it any different from other settlement schemes?

If I jump in—

Shall I—

Go on, you go, Gaynor.

No, you go first, Naomi. You can give the overview.

Sorry. I think it is difficult at the moment to say whether the funding is enough, because we're still learning and we're still developing these services, but, again, we can have those conversations. As I said, the tariff is only there for a year, so there's £10,500, then, additional funding for education, but £200 of that tariff is to be given to each refugee on arrival. There is flexibility with the tariffs; we haven't yet had the full written details, the funding instructions. We've had some aspects, we've had conversations, we understand some of Welsh Government's expectations around this, but we still do need some of that final clarity, if you like, particularly when—. Because, if people are moving across local authority areas, that tariff will likely move with them as well. So, it is difficult to look at what's available when you don't know the flow of what is coming in over a given time. So, it's difficult to say whether it's sufficient.

The long-term implications would be the same as with any other growth of population. There will be an increased call on schools, housing, health services, as we've picked up. There are issues around English as second language. Some people are arriving with good English language skills, some aren't. But also, learning from previous cohorts, with Afghans, people are also keen to learn Welsh. So, we want to make sure that we're offering opportunities to learn both languages within Wales. And only this morning—. Even in terms of some of the capacity that local authorities have put in, in terms of case workers, people are finding they're needing to recruit more, because the work is increasing and the complexity of the cases, again, recognising that people are arriving with trauma, which doesn't always come out straight away; this can happen over time. So, these are support packages that need to happen over time. But I think we are having those conversations, but we still do need to wait for the detail. Sorry, Gaynor.

It's okay, thank you. The only thing I'd add to that is covering off the Homes for Ukraine £350 per month payment for the sponsors. What we have found is that, from an upfront perspective, that hasn't been quite enough for some sponsors because of the investment that they need to do to make sure that their properties are ready and furnished et cetera for the arrival of Ukrainians. So, that is one of the feedback items that we've had from sponsors—that that £350 per month doesn't go too far. We've also had an example of a potential breakdown as well because of the escalating cost-of-living costs, in that that £350 to cover additional food and heating costs et cetera to accommodate Ukrainians isn't going far enough. So, it is leading to a tension, then, as such, really, potentially in some of the placements that we do have. So, that's the only additional, then, in terms of that £350. That, often, is not quite enough to start off, but could possibly be, then, as you're moving on.

Okay. Carolyn, I think we'd better move on swiftly to Joel, if that's okay.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks, everyone, for coming today. It's been absolutely fascinating so far. I just wanted to pick your brains, really, about the existing schemes. So, when we talk about the Afghan and Syrian resettlement schemes, to what extent have they been impacted by the Homes for Ukraine scheme? Has there been best practice that they've picked up, if that makes sense?

Sure. Do you want me to come in on that one?

Yes, please, Anne.

So, it's a two-part question. So, one was around best practice and then the impact. Yes, a lot has been done. We've been doing large-scale resettlement in Wales, which began a few years ago now with the Syrian scheme and all 22 councils have participated. So, there's been a lot of learning and good practice over time that's been applied very definitely to this scenario, and also, learning from the pandemic, what happened in Penally and the Afghan bridging sites, for sure.

So, there has been an impact on the other schemes from the response to Ukraine. The migration agenda has become much more of an all-Wales effort than it ever was and councils are now being asked to respond to both the Afghan scheme's full dispersal policy, which means that all councils will be expected to take asylum seekers, and of course the transfer of unaccompanied children is mandated now to all 22 councils. So, I know for a fact that there has been a slowdown in property offers to, for example, the Afghan scheme. We've got several families, a lot of families, still in hotels in Wales. We're looking for longer term accommodation for them. The UK Government Minister is about to write to chief executives across the UK to ask them to recommit or re-pledge to support the resettlement programmes. The problem is, as Gaynor and Naomi have both said, housing teams are incredibly pressurised and the challenge for us in Wales is how we deliver a place-based approach that provides equitable support to people arriving under any of those schemes. It's not going to be easy. So, the short answer to your question is that there has been an impact and we are struggling to find properties.

Thank you very much for that, Anne. Joel, I think we'd better conclude matters there for this particular evidence session, because I'm afraid we've run out of time. Thank you all very much, Naomi, Anne and Gaynor, for giving evidence to committee this morning. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, committee.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

We've reached item 6, then, on our agenda today, and our second evidence session on the committee's inquiry into housing Ukrainian refugees. I'm very pleased to welcome here in the Senedd with us Reynette Roberts, chief executive officer for Oasis, and the Rev Aled Edwards, chief executive for Cytûn—Churches together in Wales. Our third witness joining us remotely is Natalie Zhivkova, volunteering policy officer for the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. Welcome to you all, and perhaps I might begin, then, with a first general question or two.

So, firstly, then, the support that's available in Wales for Ukrainian refugees—in your view, is it working well at the moment? Are there any gaps that we ought to be made aware of? Is, for example, the welcoming centre model effective? Who would like to begin? Aled.

Thank you very much, and I'll give my evidence in Welsh. I think that for those of us who have worked in this area for a long time, we realise that the challenge of hosting communities from Syria, from Afghanistan and from Ukraine is huge, and I'm sure that there are a number of areas where we could have done things better. But I must say, in terms of faith communities and churches in particular, having that co-operation with, for example, Pembrokeshire, in the case of Penally, that's been as good as it has been, and that's been very special, and that partnership working has been very powerful and a great experience to be part of. And if I could say, in the situation in the case of Penally, there were a number of specific challenges in terms of community engagement. That was hard enough.

The biggest privilege for us as faith communities, I think, and specifically Cytûn, was working with the Urdd regarding placing people in this centre after the fall of Kabul. I must say, having that co-operation and that negotiation specifically with local authorities—Cardiff, in that instance—was vital so that we could have arrangements in place that were very progressive on an international level.

I've been working in this field for a long time, and I don't know of any other countries where their chief youth organisation has given their main building and their best staff to take care of refugees, and I think those arrangements with the Urdd and the third sector and Cardiff Council have been vital. I think that we established a pattern there of being supersponsors before that term was brought about. I think that's what we did—we put that wraparound plus model, because you can give that care to families, but having them to be happy, to feel settled, supporting the Welsh football team, the rugby team, going to eisteddfodau and feeling at home is something that is progressive. We've adapted those experiences to other places in Wales in the Urdd regime.

They went to all kinds of places to begin with, and to west Wales by now. Those systems were working very well, but as we have already heard, we are very aware that there are challenges about being consistent and making sure that there's good quality to what is offered. And also I think the great challenge going forward is getting the very able people and talented people into homes and communities and letting them shape that future for themselves.

And I think, for me, one of the amazing things in the Urdd Eisteddfod this year was to have an arrangement so that there were families from Afghanistan coming to the eisteddfod and enjoying and celebrating, and one of the youngest children telling us in leaving the eisteddfod, 'This is the best day of my life.' And that was key. But I think that there are challenges in terms of caring, especially with regard to Ukraine. Maybe I can hand over now to Reynette and others to talk about that.

Okay. Reynette.

Okay, I'll concentrate on Cardiff and Oasis Cardiff and what we know. So, in general, our collaboration with Cardiff local authority has been excellent, because we're already working with them with the Afghans. So, regarding the welcome centres, it's been really positive. It was a very quick response to a changing situation on the ground. Needs assessments were done with the council staff and this enabled us to design an effective and timely response, so approximately 40 people have been supported over the past seven weeks. We feel that this welcome centre model has been effective and has given people accessing the services stability and a sense of belonging after their tumultuous and traumatic experiences.

Oasis Cardiff has provided informal English language provision, engagement with the local community and orientation at the welcome centre. Those Ukrainians accessing the Oasis Cardiff centre in Splott—mainly hosted families and individuals—have engaged in support services, women-only sessions, as well as English sessions, which have been very high in demand. So, in Oasis Cardiff itself, we have approximately 35 people, not including children, who have been supported over the last four weeks, and this is increasing on a daily basis.

Oasis Cardiff are also providing UK mobile SIMs through our partnership with Vodafone. In total, over 100 SIMs have been given to Ukrainian refugees in the past six weeks. We have concern about the upskilling of the hosts to support their clients and their hostees effectively, lack of volunteering and employment opportunities because they're unsure about timescales and ability to commit, and we hope to work to do more about this. The decision to host the Ukrainian refugees in Wales has been noted by other refugee groups, raising questions about what types and quality of support they get. There is a concern that this has created inequality and discrimination within the resettlement asylum processing system.

Thank you very much, Reynette, and we'll come on to many of those matters in due course. Natalie, did you want to add anything at this stage?

Yes, please, if I may. Of course, as the umbrella body for the whole sector, we're not experts in refugee and settlement in particular, but to us the approach so far seems reasonable and logical. We particularly welcome the welcome centres, because they represent an opportunity for our sector to engage with incoming refugees. It's the first point of contact very early on, which we have seen has been very beneficial down the line to prevent some forms of exploitation, perhaps, or putting them in dangerous situations. I think to some extent it's a bit too early to judge how successful our approach in Wales has been, but I think this does represent an excellent opportunity for Welsh Government, when we have more evidence, to really review how this system was implemented, and perhaps help us build future systems for new refugees coming in as a nation of sanctuary.

Okay, thank you very much, Natalie. That's great. Just one further question from me before we move on to other committee Members. The Welsh Government's decision to pause the supersponsor scheme—is that a decision that you think was the right one? If so, what actions do you think might follow during the pause, and do you have a view on how long the pause should be for?

My personal opinion is that I think that we have learned now in the Welsh sector to be practical and pragmatic. And I think that we have to ask how can we provide for those who are in our care. And, because of that, we can trust the decision to pause. I think we have partnerships and negotiations in place that are smooth enough and bold enough for us to be able to change course. I do think that it's better for us to wait for the evidence and to wait for the evidence from people on the ground before we go on. But, I think there would be terrible problems if we were to receive so many people within these supersponsor schemes without having the provision for them in the long term. It's a difficult balance to be struck, morally and practically, but I think that we should be led by the evidence, and I think, currently, the evidence is quite robust.

Okay. Did you want to add anything, Reynette?

Yes. I think it gives an opportunity for the sector to regroup and evaluate the services currently offered. And we would ask that, when it's restarted, it will be communicated to third sector organisations a little more in advance, because, when things are done with a very short time, it leads to confusion and quick decision-making regarding the support, and that can have a detrimental effect on our other services as well.

Yes, sure. Okay. Natalie, did you want to add anything?

Yes. I would echo what everybody else has said already. I believe that, with the evidence that we do have in terms of the number of applications and the people who are already in the welcome centres, from what I understand, most centres are currently either at full or almost full capacity. So, a bit of a bottleneck is happening, because very few people have actually been resettled into more permanent accommodation, which then causes further stress on the refugees themselves, statutory services and voluntary sector services. So, from our point of view, if we can use this pause now to really regroup and make sure that this process, especially the resettlement process, is more streamlined so that we can offer support alongside, that would be great.

I won't be able to give a view on how long the pause should be. I think it would really depend on how quickly we're able to move people into more permanent accommodation.

Okay. That's fine. Thank you very much. We'll move on, then, to Mabon.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning to all of you. Thank you very much to all of you for joining us this morning and sharing your expertise and knowledge with us. Now, you spoke there about the accommodation available and perhaps it's wise to have that temporary pause on this process, because we do need to understand where we are in terms of the resources that we have. The major resource that we have is accommodation for refugees. Do we have sufficient accommodation in Wales for refugees from Ukraine—the numbers we want to welcome in the short term and in the long term? Reynette.

I would say that housing is an issue across the board; it doesn't matter where you come from, whether you're a refugee or you were born in the UK and in Wales. I know that Cardiff Council have said that there's an increase in pressure on them, and I know that private landlords are beginning to sell properties. So, it's quite a long-term issue, but I think it is something that needs to be looked at carefully and over a long time, because human lives and safety are more important in the short term, I would say.

When local government tells us that they are facing huge challenges in terms of homelessness, that is very credible and the evidence is there to show say that it's a challenge for us all. I also think that, as a result of what's happened, especially with Afghanistan and also Ukraine, it perhaps leads us to ask more ethical questions about what's happening with the housing that we do have in Wales, and that means a principled shift to make sure that we do provide housing in response to need, rather than its current use. And that asks questions in terms of policy at Welsh Government level, and it asks for a huge shift, I would say, in the way that we view the resources that we do have. And what I would say, in trying to be inspiring in these things, is that, yes, we do have enough housing, but our housing isn't used in a purposeful and beneficial way, and that's where that principled shift has to be. It's not just a case of building more houses; it means that we have to, as a society, have a new way of perceiving housing and how it's provided, not only for refugees but also local people in their own areas.

Diolch. Natalie.

From our perspective, I'm not able to comment on whether there is sufficient houses, as it's not really within our expertise, but, where our sector is concerned is, we know that a lot of people have come forward offering their homes in the Homes for Ukraine scheme, but some of those have been found to be inappropriate, perhaps insufficient space, or there might have been some safeguarding concerns there. It takes time and resource for local authorities to go and do those DBS checks and placement checks, and I think, at this stage, it might be a bit difficult to assess whether it's a genuine shortage of housing or we just need them to process all the different applications we've received from individuals.

Thank you. In the previous evidence that we've received, we've heard that accommodation currently provided by some hosts aren't appropriate, that they not sufficiently close to services, that there is no public transport, that they're too rural for some. Do you believe that what is being provided by us in Wales currently, in this short term, does meet the need, and what more could we do to ensure that the accommodation provided meets the needs of refugees?

From my perspective, what I would say is, what's key, currently—and there's evidence that we already do it—is that we do regularly review. That's the key thing—that we keep a record of what's happening and what the difficulties are. Some of us in the third sector expressed early on in the process that, because of the intensity and difficulties here, there would be a safety issue, there would be a suitable provision issue, and I'm sure that eagerness to provide housing and a space for refugees would soon become a reality, where people have to work things out and sometimes have to be honest and say what they were intending to do wasn't possible and it doesn't work. But as I said earlier, the only answer to that, I think, is that we do review the situation regularly and that we learn and try our best. But I'm not naively saying that we can be completely smooth in this area.

Diolch. Reynette.

I would say that the Welsh communities have been amazing in that they've offered up their homes to refugees, but there will be challenges. And I think the ideal situation is different from the reality, and I think having some Ukrainians in a real situation will work for some but not for others, and I think there's a danger of people who are isolated, who spend all their time thinking about what's happening back at home, and if they're traumatised, if that is all in your mind, it can be detrimental to their mental health and well-being, and also, then, to their hosts. But I think, as Aled said, it's something that needs to be reviewed and looked at regularly. Also, there'll be excellent practice, but there will also be not such good practice, but it's dealing with human beings.

Diolch. Natalie.

I think, from our sector's perspective and from what I know, our sector tends to get involved once there might be a problem. So, if there is already a problem in the house or there is a safeguarding concern, obviously we have a duty of care to report anything that's been relayed to service users that might've shared that with a volunteer or staff of a charity. I know that there are particular localised charities that have been working with local councils when a breakdown is about to happen in a placement, which, of course, tells us that there might have been some placements that weren't ideal. I'm not able to comment more broadly if that's a common occurrence or not.

Diolch.

Okay, Mabon. Jayne.

Thank you, Chair. Thank you so much for coming in today to give us evidence. I'm just going to concentrate on safeguarding. We've heard how it is absolutely crucial and has to be right at the forefront of everything. I was just wondering what your assessment is about how big the issue of safeguarding is of Ukrainian refugees and how it's being monitored. We heard in our last evidence session about some of the differences within the schemes—for example, the family visa scheme is unknown to the local authority, of people coming on that. I'm just wondering if that's your experience and if you have any connections there.

We don't. We only know the ones that come to our centre. All our staff and volunteers are DBS checked and go through a process. But, externally, we don't have any—.

From our point of view, we have been aware that there have been safeguarding issues from the beginning. Experience would dictate that when you get vulnerable women and children, some unsavoury elements will try and control that scene. I think all the authorities are aware. We frequently discuss trafficking issues, and that will be difficult. But I think we've tried our best, and certainly in the third sector we would be bound by good practice and safeguarding procedures, and if we were aware of anything being untoward, then we would, obviously, escalate that.

If I may, very briefly, I think some of us are concerned about this mix of schemes and mix of vulnerabilities. It is a great concern to us particularly when you take in what we would still call 'spontaneous arrivals' and they are at their most vulnerable, because they don't have the protections of those new schemes. It's not for me to be forwarding an agenda here, but, particularly in the light of this morning's announcement around the bill of rights, we have had a framework in Wales that has had a democracy informed by equal opportunities, sustainable development and human rights. This institution, may I remind you, was created on the understanding that it would be constrained by human rights requirements. It was further empowered in 2011 by a democratic mandate to have that further empowerment, and I think it's going to be an interesting question for us. I served as an adviser to the 2011 Commission on a UK Bill of Rights, and some of you may recall that the reason why that commission did not come to a conclusion was because the likes of Philippe Sands QC and Helena Kennedy QC raised the issue of human rights being embedded within the DNA of our democracy here in Wales. We certainly highlighted that.

Now, I'm asking questions at this point as we are entering into a new phase of conversation around these things. When Ukrainians and Afghans who are very competent, able people experience wrongdoing or injustice or something that falls well short of what is required, what redress do they have within our constitutional framework? I would encourage this institution and other institutions that we should never lose sight of how we call Governments and institutions to account when they overreach and when they fail to provide the frameworks that vulnerable people need to have. I would implore you to consider, as a committee, how we respond to that ongoing development, particularly in the light of legislative consent and enforcement. I think we cannot, at this stage, have a constitutional arrangement that may weaken people's rights—I raise that as an issue in direct answer to your question—particularly when it comes to the most vulnerable at the 'spontaneous arrival' end of the conversation.

Absolutely. Incredibly powerful, I think. I don't know if Natalie wants to say something in terms of her experience. You mentioned safeguarding in response to the last question.

Natalie.

Yes, please, if I may. I think there are massive concerns in our sector in regard to safeguarding. Specialist organisations that work within the area are, of course, hearing a lot of international examples of human trafficking and sexual abuse. There are a lot of very, very bad examples happening already outside of Wales, and the aim of the sector is for us to not have a plethora of examples of our own here.

So, I think the main message is prevention is better than cure. So, I think one of the main strong messages that we have is that sufficient time needs to be given, sufficient resources need to be given to local authorities to perform background checks before placements happen in the first instance. The sector is working together with local authorities and with Welsh Government to provide expert advice and advice about the services that are offered to people who might have fallen victim to one of those things.

Aside from that, there is definitely going to be a role in terms of the general public, volunteers and community members as well. It is going to be more of a secondary role; of course, the primary responsibility does lie with the state and local authorities. But, if somebody has gotten to know a volunteer or a community member, they might feel comfortable sharing information with them that they wouldn't feel comfortable sharing with an institution or a stranger. So, in that sense, we want to raise awareness and make sure that everybody is really alert and aware of signs of abuse, and of the quickest and fastest way they can report it so that it gets to the right authorities. Civil society and community is going to have involvement in that, but, at this stage, I think our main concern is to make sure that—. By the time it comes to our sector, usually it's too late—harm is already done or it's imminent. So, if we can prevent that from getting to our sector in the first place, that would be the ideal solution, from our perspective.

Yes, thank you very much, Natalie. Especially when there's potential for more young people coming unaccompanied, it's likely to happen. That's what reports have said. Just making sure that those young people are protected when they come over unaccompanied is going to be really important.

I was just also wondering about your third sector role and volunteers' role in ensuring that safeguarding is taking place. As you've just said, Natalie, it's often happened by the time it comes to you. I just wonder what more could be done or how the third sector could get involved, whether that was in a breakdown in relations between a host family and refugees. I know we have had evidence that suggests that perhaps the third sector could play a role in being the first contact going to a house visit and then having that same person as the contact if there were any issues with a breakdown. I'm just wondering about your views on that.

So, we know of particular localised examples where a local authority would formally come to an agreement with a branch of our national charity or local charity where they would be involved in that process. There isn't currently a nationwide process or approach that we're taking. A large reason for that is because nearly 90 per cent of charities in Wales are locally based, so it's very difficult to mandate an approach. Also, different things might work differently, and the ecosystems between the local authority and the charities and communities in different parts of Wales work differently. Again, if it's rural or it's city based, it's really quite a different environment. So, that's definitely already happening and I know of some examples—for example, Newport Mediation comes to mind right now, who are focused on housing breakdowns more generally and they're definitely working with refugees at the moment as well. But, it's quite difficult to, on a national level, be able to provide that service everywhere uniformly. So, I think there needs to be a baseline of expectation—and there is already, to be fair—that local authorities will be responsible for that by default, and if the sector could be linked into that and if we could help, and there is the availability and capacity of the local charities to get involved in that as well, they're more than happy to do so.

Thank you. Did you want to add anything?

Yes, I would agree with that. I think it's really important that also there's cultural awareness training for the hosts because there can be misunderstandings just because there are cultural issues. Also, in Oasis, we run Mind-Spring, which is a mental health and well-being project, which is run by refugees for refugees in their mother tongue, and we're hoping that we can roll that out to Ukrainians as well once we've had the training. And I think that is essential as well, because it gives people a bit of time to sit back and reflect on where they are and look forward and plan forward as well.

Very quickly from me, I think we've, obviously, sought to provide pastoral care to the families that have arrived, and that sometimes can be immensely complicated because, if you think that the faith scene is complicated in Wales, it's even more complicated in Ukraine. We've had to match the Orthodox tradition that may be aligned or accountable to the Patriarch of Moscow, and that's difficult, and also the ones accountable to Kyiv. And we've also got other families. It's interesting that some of the families that came were Muslim families who went to Ukraine in order to be safe. You do think those issues through.

But I think what we do—and this is the point that I think was very ably put—is we just listen to the stories and try to be as sensitive as we can. And I'm sure that we will get some things wrong, but I think the real dynamic here for the third sector is that, I guess, we will be there more than statutory bodies frequently and just to listen to people and to hear their stories. We'll try.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Okay, Jayne. Sam.

Thanks, Chair. Just to carry that point on, really, around the support being provided to both refugees and sponsors. Do you think that the third sector is—? Is there more capacity within the third sector to provide further support, if it was asked to, as it were? Or do you think you're about at the limit as to what support you can provide at the moment in Wales?

I'm looking at my bit. I've forgot what we're doing.

Capacity is an issue. At the moment, for us, we've got 35 Ukrainians coming to our centre, and then we're doing two classes of 20 in other centres, as well as the Afghan support. So, there's a limit on how many volunteers you can use for everything. Also, those volunteers need managing. So, there's a will, but sometimes a lot of juggling goes on to try and do the best that you can for your client group, and it does stretch. You don't want to stretch your staff and volunteers so that they have burn-out as well. So, it's very hard.

Just to go a bit further on that point there, then, in your experience is the third sector being engaged at an early enough point in terms of planning? Or is there a risk at the moment that perhaps it's a bit late in the day and you're suddenly having to deliver things at very, very short notice? I know this whole thing has been an emergency, I understand that, but we're probably in a different phase now where we have an idea of what the next few months, possibly years, may look like. So, are you engaged enough in the planning for the support, do you think?

No, I don't think we are, and I think there have been lessons learned all the way along. When the Syrian crisis happened, we learned lessons on what we did and didn't want to do. We just started getting ready. As soon as we heard about it, we started planning what support we could offer to Cardiff Council, for example, and how we could support Ukrainians when they came, in the same way that we supported Afghans.

I think Reynette makes a good point. From our point of view as a faith network, bearing in mind that we, I think, gave Wales the notion of being a nation of sanctuary, we took it to the faith communities forum. We've been in all the strategic conversations and, to that extent, we've been drivers behind the changes. So, we've been very, very well informed, and being in the room is important to us because we can then impact on policy and make things better. But I'm just acutely aware that there is then a great issue between that strategic level of framing values and being on the ground delivering and having a sense of what people need and how those change from day to day. Yes, we could plan those things better, but, in our case, we'd have to say, 'Well, yes, we were there in the room, we were complicit in some of the decisions, but I think we could always learn from talking to each other earlier', and I think that’s what we will probably need to do now when we go into that next phase of trying to provide permanent or semi-permanent lives for people in our midst.

Okay. I don't know if anyone else wanted to comment at all, Chair.

Natalie wanted to come in at this stage, too.

Apologies, I think I lost connection for a second. Could I come in?

Yes, certainly, Natalie, please do.

So, I think the context of that needs to be discussed. In terms of the voluntary sector at the moment, it’s extremely stretched financially and capacity wise, because demands for our services have been steadily increasing ever since the beginning of the pandemic, and they haven’t really decreased now that, I suppose, that’s less of a big topic that we’re discussing, while some of the emergency funding, for example, that was available for the sector during the pandemic is now all but gone, really. So, all these demands are piling up on the sector from all sorts of different directions, and, in addition to that, of course, we have the cost-of-living crisis, which puts pressure on the sector in two ways: firstly, it creates a whole new cohort of people who need our support; and secondly, it becomes more expensive to deliver the services, as we’re affected as everybody else by the prices of things.

So, that is the overall health of the sector. We also have burn-out, as has already been mentioned, of course, for everybody that works here and the volunteers themselves. So, that’s how this crisis met us in the first place. We also have the end of EU funding, and people feel uncertain about the transition into the shared prosperity fund and, especially, smaller charities find it very difficult to plan longer term, or they feel discouraged from investing in any new services—anything but their absolute core functions. I think by default this limits the ability of charities, especially smaller ones and especially local ones, which is around 90 per cent of the charities in Wales, to engage in those more strategic discussions. So, very similar to what Aled was saying, we were there as the WCVA and we were having those conversations, but it’s very difficult to demand from smaller organisations that are very overwhelmed, and they have capacity issues, to also be at all of those meetings, thinking strategically, making sure that they work in partnership with everybody else, because of the one first things that goes when you are underfunded is this ability to think strategically and work in partnerships. It results in silo working, not because of lack of desire or trying, but just because people don’t have the staff resource to dedicate to it.

So, I think part of the issue starts in the fact that there isn’t sufficient capacity in the sector at the moment. I think there is definitely something to be said, and something for us to consider, in terms of our commitment as a nation of sanctuary, where funding for the provision of services to asylum seekers and refugees needs to be part of the regular funding rounds—it needs to be part of the rounds that we already have of funding for the sector, perhaps being ring-fenced or in some way designed so that people have time, have the resource to plan in advance, to make those partnerships, so when a crisis does happen, we’re already prepared, and we don’t just respond to it with some emergency funding, which could be helpful. I know that Welsh Government has donated £1 million to the Croeso fund, and people are able to apply and get some funding from there, but if you’re already very stretched with your services and you’re already uncertain about your future, expanding your current provision of services to something in addition might already feel like something you can’t do, because it’s a bit too late for that. So, I think that's one of the main reasons, perhaps, and one of the main things we should consider for the future is having that preparedness in advance.

Thank you. And I'd just briefly, then—I’m conscious of time running away—focus on hosts and their abilities to provide the relevant support. I’m just wondering whether you think that they are going into this role with their eyes wide open in terms of what they need to provide for any refugees in their households, or is there something else we should be doing to ensure that people are either more trained or have the right expectations going into this role of being a host?

I don’t think you can ever anticipate what it’s going to be like to house a refugee. We had an Afghan that lived with us for two years, and it was a real success, but there were challenges and there were adjustments, for a family having a stranger come into their home, to make. I think people have to adapt, and sometimes it’s hard for people to adapt. I think having training and having someone to talk to outside of their home about the issues that they’re facing, to make them realise that, yes, that’s a normal feeling, there’s nothing wrong with feeling like that—. And for the children of families that are hosting as well. It's a big shift for a family to take in strangers.

So, are those networks available—of support—at the moment?

Not that I'm aware of. Are you aware of—?

No. I think, in the faith world, we try our best, through pastors and churches, to make sure that people are supported. We've been inundated with phone calls from people saying, 'Well, what do I do now?' And I think—. They're very informal and they're ad hoc, but the remarkable thing I'd say is that, given the nature of this crisis, there are immensely powerful, successful stories out there. And I think, whatever we do in terms of being honest about the challenges, we may have to find a way of celebrating people's achievements of doing these fantastic things that they never thought that they would do and never thought that they could do, but, strangely, by human ingenuity and support they've done. And I think the credit's to all the mechanisms. My guess is that none of us could have planned for this last year; it's something that we couldn't do. But I think we've done a remarkably good job of it. We're all aware that there will be failings and people will fail, but I think there are mechanisms there; when breakdowns happen, there are alternatives. And I think, at this juncture, we should possibly focus on the good learning.

Yes. And sorry, just briefly on that, then, are there any themes that you're observing in terms of those breakdowns so we can celebrate more often?

Could you repeat that, sorry?

You talked about trying to reduce those breakdowns. Are there any themes that you're observing that are causing breakdowns to happen in those host families, or not?

My feeling, and it's very anecdotal, is that breakdowns happen when people possibly haven't thought the issue through and they are then left fairly isolated. What I do find is that, when people are given adequate support and help, the chances of breakdown decrease quite significantly. And I think the other thing in the background as well is that there needs to be an interchange between the Homes for Ukraine and the supersponsorship capacity so that you blend the support mechanisms. And we found that, certainly with the Afghan model that we had around the Urdd, people now just retain their own links and they support each other. And those tend to be better when people are in a community rather than being isolated.

Okay, thanks. Thanks, Chair.

Okay, Sam. Carolyn.

I was interested to hear that. So, those who are coming through, they've formed their own community, made their own friendship groups and are supporting each other, then, is what you're saying.

Yes.

Yes. That's really interesting. I went to work in Italy for a little while, and it was important to have English friends there as well, because I didn't know the language when I went to work abroad. I totally understand that.

I was going to ask you some questions about funding. Do you think that the funding from both the UK and Welsh Governments is adequate and being effectively used? You're smiling there. [Laughter.]

No, and I think we're very lucky that we can—. For our organisation, we apply to trust funds and to other funders, but it's always a struggle and it can be quite an emotive issue, especially when there are similar organisations doing similar roles and you don't want to step on each other's feet. So, it can be a minefield.

Can I highlight, on that one, that one of the interesting conversation pieces in the sector is, where you have, for example, existing advocacy forums that work well, if you say that you're going to do something specific for Ukraine, how do you explain that to the other communities and how do you justify that that need may be needed just now? Those are interesting conversation pieces, and I think we do strive in the sector, when we inform Government decisions, to make sure that we don't duplicate. I'm not sure we always succeed.

And I would say that any Ukrainian who comes through our doors gets treated the same as any other refugee or asylum seeker. We don't differentiate between them. And they make friends across the board as well, which is really important.

Very good. And Natalie. You spoke earlier about it.

I think I've already covered what my view on the funding question was. I think the sector at the moment would welcome any additional funding that we could receive, because it is very difficult for many organisations to be able to provide those services. They really want to, but they might not be able to; they might not have the capacity to. And especially since we don't know how long this is going to go on for, long-term funding is needed. Ideally, if we already had that in place and if we already had refugees and asylum seekers in mind with previous rounds of funding, that would help provide us with an opportunity to set things in place very early on. Now, perhaps some emergency funding might be a good solution to help increase capacity, in particular. It is also still relatively early days to see what the needs are going to be. So, needs might expand. They might go in directions we didn't anticipate down the line. So, I think it's one to stay and watch and see where it goes.

And funding for refugees themselves, as well as the sponsors and for organisations, how's that working?

From my point of observation, the funding is there. It's not over-generous and there are challenges. I think the biggest challenge is to get them to be able to use the money well, with cards and with access to cash. Those have constantly been a challenge. In fairness to them, all the local authorities and local groups that I've engaged with have found ways of getting round it, but getting cards that are usable to the service users I think is still a challenge.

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, Carolyn? Okay. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. And thanks ever so much for coming today. I just wanted to quickly ask, if I may, about something that Reynette mentioned earlier about the existing refugee organisations or societies with the Afghan resettlement programme, and then maybe the Syrian resettlement programme. You mentioned how they'd been almost not unfairly impacted, but they'd been adversely impacted by Homes for Ukraine earlier. I was just wondering if you could touch on that a bit more.

It's what the client group that we have feel. They feel that their countries had a war, but they've arrived as asylum seekers and they have to go through the process, whereas Ukrainians have been welcomed in. And that's not been helped, of course, by the media and what they portray, and what they see on Facebook. So, they feel unsettled. They feel that they're not valued or considered on the same level as a Ukrainian. It doesn't mean that they treat a Ukrainian any differently. But we've got Russian asylum seekers in our organisation; it's really unsettled them as well, because they've had to flee because of the same issues. So, it is a challenge.

With that in mind then, do you think that they feel that the help and support that might be given to Ukrainian refugees isn't there for them, then, or is that just a perception?

I would say that they do feel that, and I think, with everything that the Government in London is doing, it's not helping to keep people—. Rwanda, for example, and then tags. People are very unsettled and very uncertain about their situations.

Very quickly from me, I had a joyous moment a few days ago with four women refugee doctors that had gone through the Wales asylum seeking and refugee doctors and dentists scheme that we've had since 2002. And that awareness of the distinctiveness of avenues of approach to coming here and being here was very paramount, and we're now working with friends in north Wales to say that they can have access to the WARD scheme that we have here. It was very powerful looking at four immensely courageous women, from places such as Sudan, places such as Afghanistan, and also from Ukraine. They were there together having that conversation piece, and because these sorts of individuals are so courageous and intelligent and really powerful women, the inequalities of their systems will not go beyond them; they will understand those things.

And I think possibly for us all in Wales, and in the third sector in particular, we just have to work hard to make sure that everybody feels that they have an equal space. But what corrodes that is the sense that the mechanisms that they deploy to come here are now very different. I was reminded because, we started our scheme in 2002—Chair, you and I will remember how we started it. During those days, all of them were spontaneous arrivals. They would be regarded now as being illegal by sections of the press and the media. And I look at how they've developed—some of them have become civil servants, some have become doctors, over the years. But I think that fragmentation of how the community views itself and how it's treated is a problem. I think that's my answer, really. I think it is a problem that those distinctives have now made that sense of oneness even more of a challenge.

Okay. Well, thank you very much. Thank you all three of you—Aled, Reynette and Natalie—for coming in to give evidence to committee today. You will be sent a transcript of your evidence to check for factual accuracy. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay, then, item 7 is papers to note. We have one paper to note, which is a letter from Jane Hutt, the Minister for Social Justice, in relation to this inquiry into housing Ukrainian refugees. Is committee content to note that paper? Yes. Thank you very much.

Okay, in accordance with our earlier decision, then, we will now move into private session.