Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning. I'm Clive Phillips, and I represent Estyn.

Thank you very much, Clive. I'll come to Hayden next.

Good morning, everybody, Hayden Llewellyn, chief executive of EWC, the Education Workforce Council.

Fantastic. Thank you, Hayden.

We'll go to Arwyn.

Good morning. Arwyn Thomas representing the regions and the education partnerships.

Brilliant. And we'll go to Enlli.

Good morning. Enlli Thomas from Bangor University.

Fantastic. Thank you very much. We'll move straight to questions if you're content to do so, and we will go first of all to Alun Davies.

Thank you. May I ask the witnesses whether they think that the framework and the structure of the WESPs is adequate to meet the target of a million Welsh speakers?

Who wants to go first?

No-one. Does that answer the question?

Clive.

Good morning, Alun. We responded to each of the WESPs that were submitted by the authorities and, certainly, we saw that the structure of presenting plans over a period of 10 years was beneficial, and that allows longer term planning. At best, we've seen that there is an ambition and careful thinking and planning by authorities in this sense, and that roles for fora as well as joint working among stakeholders are central to some of the best plans that have been submitted.

There is variation—variation with regard to quality and ambition. At best, an authority such as Ceredigion is very keen to move, for example, their secondary schools along the continuum of school categories, and move six of their seven schools to category 3, which is very significant in terms of ambition and is going to make a significant difference, I think, to the provision in the county. Other local authorities share vision and ambition in a similar manner, for example Gwynedd and Môn, but perhaps without the certainty of operation that Ceredigion has.

So, at best, I would say and tell you, currently, that some authorities, certainly, have taken the opportunity and that there are signs that this will contribute well to the ambition of 2050, but there are great differences and great variations in the plans.

Can I just cut across there, please? The question was whether the structure and the framework of the WESPs are sufficient. And what you've done is describe the variation in WESPs across the nation. Now, that tells me that the structure isn't sufficient because it enables local authorities to fail and to fail to reach the kinds of targets and quality that we need. So, that suggests to me that the WESPs as a policy and as a framework aren't sufficient.

That's where I was getting to. I think there's a need to strengthen the legal framework, the legislation, for the WESPs, to strengthen them and to make them stronger and more empowered, and to raise the bar, perhaps, in the local authorities that haven't taken advantage of this opportunity to plan strategically over the next 10 years.

Does anybody else want to come in? Arwyn.

Yes, if I may come in, just to echo some of the things that Clive said and go back to Alun's original question, it appears that we need to implement these plans. I would ask the question about whether we are clear about the definition of a Welsh speaker in the first instance. I think that we talk about this shift towards a million Welsh speakers, but there are different definitions of a Welsh speaker and what a Welsh speaker is at age seven, 11, 14 and so on, throughout the school ages, where we're used to measuring pupil progress. So, we need greater clarity with regard to the definition of speakers. Returning to Alun's question about the million Welsh speakers, are we clear about whether this is ambition, an aim appetite or a real target in terms of a million Welsh speakers? Then you bring it down to the framework level—

Arwyn, I'm sorry to cut across, but Alun wanted to come in on that. Sorry, the mike wasn't on—sorry about that.

Yes, I understand what you're getting at, but there's been a lot of discussion about what is a Welsh speaker, and I don't see that that's important, really, in this discussion. We're talking about education planning, we're talking about these strategic plans, and your colleague here, Mr Phillips, has said that the plans we have aren't sufficient, that the framework for the plans isn't sufficient. The question of how you define a Welsh-speaking person is important, but it's important in a different context. To me, what's important here is how we plan the education structure. Is that a bit of a red herring here?

No. It is a question of what basis you're planning on, isn't it? We need to be clear about what we are planning for. Looking at the requirements of the frameworks—and I think that Estyn's paper considers these issues in greater detail than we've been able to do, from our point of view—there's some variation that's clearly noted there. So, we have to ask the question: in accepting these plans, what is the cause and effect if they're sufficiently ambitious or not, or if they're sufficiently powerful or not? That isn't to be seen clearly in terms of whether there's a process if the Government feels that there isn't sufficient ambition and movement. The plans are accepted, but is there enough cause and effect there in terms of the quality of plans in the first instance?

Again, looking at the plans themselves, the other issue is that we are trying to move schools and the planning of school infrastructure from one medium to another, and that's why I made the point about the Welsh speaker. One of the fetters that is responsible for the ambition, or the lack of ambition, in some of the plans is the challenge in terms of moving a school from one category to another. You have to ask the question about whether that's the only answer to reach a million Welsh speakers. And in having a clear, acknowledged, recognised continuum that provides a clear line for people planning learner experiences for the new curriculum, and so on, the opportunities are there then to identify where each school is, so that every school is on that journey. There's a danger that we're reaching a point where we have the absolute that either a school contributes towards the Welsh language or doesn't do that. But, we want every school, if we are to reach a million Welsh speakers, to be clearly on that journey.

The other point I would make is that policies—and every policy, indeed—emanating from Government has to take advantage of every opportunity to reinforce the journey towards a million Welsh speakers. If we take the school improvement framework that was announced and published last week, yes, there is reference at the beginning of that document to a million Welsh speakers, but when we look at what exactly individual schools have to report on in that framework, the Welsh language isn't one of the specific elements there. So, if we want to have that statutory framework to work in all of the local authorities, we need to see then what the route is for each school to contribute towards the objectives that are set, or you might have a gap between the strategic and the operational to achieve the objectives that are set.

Before Alun comes back, Enlli or Hayden, would you like to add anything?

If I may, it's Hayden from the Education Workforce Council. The EWC's main interest, for obvious reasons, is the workforce. That's the body that we're involved with. It's pretty clear, I think there's no secret that there are some challenges in this area. Our data, which stretches back 20 years, shows that the number of Welsh-speaking teachers hasn't changed; it has not gone up, it has not gone down in 20 years. It's the same as those able to teach through the medium of Welsh, it has not changed at all. The Welsh Government has set aims in terms of getting greater numbers into teacher training, but it is a challenge—variable in different parts of Wales, but a challenge right across the board.

We are encouraged by the Welsh Government's very recent 10-year action plan for recruitment, but it's very clear that no one thing will fix this and make it better and get greater numbers of Welsh educators into the workforce. It's going to be a long haul. That's variable in different authorities; that's a greater challenge in certain authorities than others. What we need, and again I think it's no secret, is a supply chain of Welsh speakers coming through from school and then hopefully moving on to be teachers and learning support staff. So, there is certainly still work to do in terms of the WESPs, but it's not a magic bullet on this one, I'm afraid.

Thank you. Enlli.

I haven't seen the latest WESPs, so I can't respond to what has been offered as content. But I just want to ask the question: is there sufficient encouragement, perhaps, to plan on a more holistic basis, where that planning gets to the core of what some of the reasons are regarding why some pupils don't develop with the Welsh language when the opportunity is there? It's one thing to provide the opportunity and give children the Welsh language, but it's another thing to ensure that children have—well, in English you'd say the attitude and motivation, those elements that are a core part of developing language skills. And very often, those skills are forgotten in the plans. So, as I said, I haven't seen the current WESPs, so I don't know to what extent there is a sufficient emphasis being placed on that infrastructure that is necessary in order to develop these children educationally in the Welsh language.

Thank you, Enlli. Alun.

Thank you. So, we have seen some local authorities successfully putting forward WESPs that do work and some failing, and I presume that the majority of the others are somewhere in the middle. And it's clear from your responses that the current legislation is failing. So, local authorities are failing because they aren't being compelled by Government to ensure that the WESPs are adequate. So, how would you, as experts in this field, change the system to require local authorities to plan in a way that is stronger, and that contributes towards the targets that we've set?

Who wants to go first? Clive.

One of the main weaknesses, I think, in the current plans is that there's not enough attention in the plans to develop provision in English-medium schools. To reach the 2050 targets, there will be a need for a high percentage of pupils who leave English-medium schools to be fluent in the Welsh language as well in order to meet those targets, as I said. So, there is a need to transform the way that Welsh is taught in English-medium schools, primarily.

The proposed curriculum places an emphasis on the oral element, as we know, in order to create and nurture Welsh speakers. But, there is a need also to provide opportunities for those learners to use the language in different contexts in order for them to become confident and strong Welsh speakers, and so forth. It's not clear currently what the national strategy is to promote this, and there, I think, is one of the main weaknesses regarding the current plans. Getting clarity on that would be key, and perhaps legislation around that to see how schools are going to move across the language category, and expectations regarding expanding provision in English-medium schools, in the secondary sector, mainly. So, that's how I see some of the main challenges, Alun, in moving this forward.

Thank you.

Thank you, Clive. What does everyone else think? Arwyn.

Yes, I agree. There are two things. One thing in Alun's question is the cause and effect in terms of what is considered a successful scheme or not. At the moment, the relationship between central Government and local government about what counts as success and that accountability—. If you move successfully along this path, in a way—it's very difficult to find the right word—what is the reward? Is there an additional contribution to the authorities that do go further along this journey?

That's on the authority level. Down to the school level, it's quite clear—and I agree entirely with Clive—the shift in terms of schools where less Welsh is spoken, that's where movement needs to happen. As regions and partnerships together, we've come to the view that we need to provide a national professional offer between us, where we can identify best practice, be it in Monmouthshire or Anglesey, wherever it is, that we come together then and create that national programme. That would support those schools that have some linguistic capacity within them to make that shift, and we can share the practice and the resources together across Wales to facilitate that shift.

The challenge that Hayden has outlined isn't just a challenge for schools where there are only very few Welsh speakers amongst staff, it's becoming more of a challenge for Welsh-medium schools as well because of a lack of teachers undertaking Welsh as a first language courses. So, we need to look at this workforce element. Once again, we may need to encourage young people to study educational courses through the medium of Welsh, because it appears that if you look—and Hayden has more detail on this than I have—at the secondary sector in terms of Welsh as a subject, that's a challenge too.

So, there is a role for us to come together regionally to provide that professional support to schools, but we also need to market the sphere of Welsh-medium education to our children and young people who are coming through the system too.

Thank you for that, Arwyn. Regarding the workforce, we will go into that in more detail later on in the session. That is certainly something that we would want to hear more about later on. Hayden or Enlli, would you like to add anything? Everybody doesn't have to come in on every question, but you're more than welcome to.

I'd just like to add one point, if I may, just stimulated by what Clive said. If there are some local authority WESPs that are good, then let's learn the lessons from those ones and take a look at what is good and encourage other local authorities to learn from that good practice in terms of further developing their WESPs. Hopefully, that fits in with what Alun's question was there in terms of looking more closely at whether the frameworks are good enough. Let's try to learn the lessons from the better ones.

Okay. I think Heledd wants to come in on this. Heledd.

Can I just ask, on that point, do you think that's enough, because there's enough in terms of sharing best practice and so on, but do you think that will really deliver what's needed here, just sharing best practice, or do we need other tools, as has been suggested, in terms of a better basis in terms of legislation or stronger legislation?

That's my view as well, actually. Local authorities spend enough time sitting around in the Metropole in Llandrindod as it is. Surely, in the last 20 years, they would have learned something from each other.

Hayden, is there anything you wanted to add to that?

Nothing further to add. Actually, my knowledge is the workforce, rather than the detail of the WESPs and the wider aspects—[Inaudible.]

Okay. Thank you, Hayden. Clive.

Regarding the legislation, I think there is a way of strengthening the legislation to promote the attempt to achieve more Welsh speakers. For example, for school reorganisation, having legislation in place, tying any reorganisation to the WESPs of that local authority and to have that connection clear, that both of those issues run together, would be a bait for local authorities to ensure that, for any plans they have to open new schools or to reorganise in a different manner, the funding follows the desire and the targets that they have in their strategic plans. That's one example, perhaps, where legislation could assist and strengthen the impact of the WESPs.

Okay. Thank you for that. Apologies, because of time, I am aware now that we'll have to move on, if Alun is happy for us to do so. So, we'll go to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, and good morning. Thank you for joining us today. You've referred to this already in some of your evidence, but I just wanted to understand better, please, how local authorities have been engaging with you as key partners in terms of the draft WESP process. And do you think that this process has improved or is there room for further improvement? I don't know who wants to go first.

I'll start this time. It's more relevant to us here in the regions. It's very varied, that engagement. The statutory responsibility, as we've noted, for the plans is within the authority, and they tend to focus, as the framework does, on the infrastructure in schools and to change school categories and to increase numbers. And apparently that's one of the deficiencies, if you like, of the framework. It's as if we need to provide this binary choice to a parent, that you choose one medium or the other. So, that is part of planning the infrastructure that runs through the plans.

But going back to your previous question regarding strengthening legislation, if you look at the new curriculum and if you look at the school improvement framework that was published last week, our role with the regions, naturally, is to support staff in schools, the teachers, to strengthen their ability to provide experiences to pupils through the medium of Welsh.

So, we want to bring that national plan. That should lie as an operational model of how to realise these targets more clearly, I would argue, in some of these plans specifically. And to tie both of these matters together, the guidance that was published last week—if we strengthen the requirement on schools to report on progress on the Welsh language path there, then naturally, then, there is room to bring the work of the authority and the work of the regions together, to measure progress and to report up to these frameworks to do so. But to answer the question, it's varied, and only in some places have the regions been contributing to the frameworks.

Thank you. Does anybody else want to come in on that? I don't know, Hayden, in terms of the workforce, do you feel that there is sufficient engagement and collaboration with the workforce?

Where we've had involvement from local authorities in this space, it's been via regional consortia. So, it's generally been consortia getting the local authorities that they work with in their network together, and inviting the EWC to speak and work with them. Some of the consortia have been providing detailed data down to school level in terms of the workforce who are Welsh speakers, who teach through the medium of Welsh, age breakdown, subjects, et cetera, to use for workforce planning locally.

Other work in other consortia, including Arwyn's own one very recently—. We spoke about how the new national website, Educators Wales, and the service EWC now offers on behalf of the Welsh Government in terms of trying to attract people into the profession as teachers and support staff—how we might utilise that working with the different authorities in the north through GwE. So, we have done some work, but it's generally been through consortia, working with the authorities that they're in.

Clive.

On an operational level in the authorities, I think the language fora have had an influence in some local authorities regarding engagement with stakeholders, and influencing the content of the WESPs. I think one of the ones that we've recognised as being one of the strongest ones is Newport, where certainly the way that they have assisted the authority to present a plan that is very worthy of the context and situation in Newport at present. So, where the fora are effective, that does provide assistance to ensure that these plans are fit for purpose.

Thank you. I'd like to hear from Enlli. I know it's slightly different in terms of the research there, but clearly there is an important role for research and the role of universities and so on, which play a role in terms of teaching and training for the future. Do you think that we are doing enough, or perhaps missing opportunities in terms of improving Welsh-medium provision because there isn't enough engagement with all stakeholders, such as universities?

I think it is fair to say that there has been great progress in the last few years in terms of the close working between universities and schools through the consortia et cetera. So, there is quite a robust network developing in that regard, and I think it is key that that happens. There are different projects ongoing, and what is clear to me is that there's a lot of information, a lot of evidence about the effectiveness of some teaching methods that encourage language skills, because that's what we're talking about today, that perhaps aren't something that teachers are aware of, because they are teachers, not researchers. They don't come across that information. So, it is key, I think, that that collaboration happens, and as I say, it has improved, but there is room to go further with that. And as I said, and I'll say it again, I do think that forgetting about how important ensuring that children are confident and that they have the attitude and the incentives regarding the Welsh language are completely key if anything from these WESPs are going to work.

Thank you for that, Enlli. Heledd, are you content for me to move on?

Yes.

Thank you. Some local authorities have disengaged from the consortia. So, what is the view in terms of how they could engage with regard to their data when they have disengaged from the process? Or how could that situation be improved? Does anybody want to come in on that? Clive.

In terms of those authorities that have disengaged with their consortia, they receive the data—that is quite accessible for them anyway. And as we've noted in our response, and as Arwyn has mentioned, the consortia haven't had much influence, perhaps, on the process of supporting authorities to draw up these plans anyway. So, I don't think, in this context, that it hasn't been beneficial, from what we've seen anyway.

Okay. Thank you, Clive. Unless somebody else wants to come in, we'll go on to Buffy Williams. Buffy.

Diolch, Chair, and thank you, all, for joining us this morning. How is the apparent variation in the quality of ambition of the current draft WESPs a cause of concern, and how could this be improved in the future?

Who wants to go first on this? If there's anything that you want to add to what's been said already, you may. No, you're all—.

Well, just briefly, the lack of ambition reflects the political desire in terms of those councils too. For example, a number of the authorities that we feel haven't shown that ambition are happy to fill the gaps in their Welsh-medium schools at the moment, without perhaps considering why those gaps are emerging in those schools in the first place, and perhaps haven't looked more widely in their authorities for sites that are more accessible to more pupils, and to consider the other reasons why these vacancies exist. So, that's one of the reasons I think, one of the factors, that we feel—. It's very easy to look at what is available and to fill those vacancies, rather than look more widely to see what the potential is, what the opportunities are, and that's where I think a number of authorities haven't taken advantage of these opportunities to the extent that they could have.

Thank you, Clive. Arwyn.

I think that, in Estyn's paper as well, Clive has referred to the political cycle being a five-year one. And a number of the authorities, naturally, have been brought together, the local democracy is created within coalitions and, within that, there are factors that bring them together, and sometimes there are clear lines that they don't want to cross in that context.

We know, over a period of time, that, apparently, the most controversial field in education is closing schools and changing the medium. We know of a number of authorities that have suffered—it depends on the vocabulary we want to use—in introducing the changes; a number of authorities have also suffered politically, if that's the right term to use here.

So, there is quite a pragmatic political element here that needs to be put alongside the strategic planning. And 10 years is a period of two councils, and we know that councils can change their leadership from one period to another, and so that is also a factor. You need to look at how you capture it. Because it's the will of the people that decides, but it is, naturally, a strong phenomenon when you look at the ambitions of different authorities.

Thank you, Arwyn. Did anyone else want to make a comment, or we'll go back to Buffy? No; we'll go back to Buffy, then.

Thank you. What are the barriers to effective data analysis by local authorities as part of the WESPs' development, and how will Welsh Government and partner bodies support these authorities in the future?

Thanks, Buffy. Enlli, is there anything that you'd like to say on this? I know that your perspective on this is going to be slightly different, but—.

Sorry, I don't think I have any information about how these data are analysed.

Okay. Did anyone else want to come in on this?

Well, I think it is also related to how you measure the success of these schemes; in terms of the number who attend Welsh-medium schools, it's easy to identify the numbers that you have and the progress made, if that happens. And I think it goes back to one of the points that Arwyn made at the beginning: if pupils then attend majority English-medium schools, it's difficult to measure the progress that they make, because there are different—. It is difficult to come to a robust view as to whether they are Welsh speakers or not—Arwyn spoke about the definition of a Welsh speaker at the beginning. And that's where we need to perhaps look at the language continuum, so that we have one way of measuring and considering what pupils' proficiency is in terms of the Welsh language, rather than having two tiers and a number of different ways of looking at this that aren't always aligned. And that's one of the ambitions of the new curriculum, of course, but I don't think we are there yet in that regard.

I would just add, Buffy, to what Clive has said, that it's difficult for people who analyse data if it's not clear what they're trying to measure. So, back to the initial point I was making—and I think that, perhaps, is that lack of clarity in terms of what a speaker is, and that then has an impact on the analysis. Clive mentioned there the curriculum; I have been talking about the new school improvement framework and so on. These documents need to speak to each other to collect the sort of information that you're talking about to create the picture of success or not regarding the WESPs.

So, we have to work at a truly micro level here to ensure that we have the big picture, namely what exactly are the successes of children on the language pathway in every school, how do we capture, measure and evaluate that, and how do we compare that consistently then across schools, across authorities and regions, so that we then have the national picture. And I would agree that we—. That is, perhaps we need to evolve this work of that language definition. We've been here time after time, but we haven't grasped it at a national level to get that definition. There are always discussions, there is always disagreement and agreement on it, but, if we have a definition, then everybody's in the same boat, working towards a million Welsh speakers. The more we split the pathways, the more difficult it is to bring them together in one piece of work. So, perhaps we lower the bar for some and raise the bar for others. Having one definition, I think, is key for us to be able to really answer the question as to whether we have a million Welsh speakers or not.

Thank you for that, Arwyn. I'm sorry, because of time, Buffy, are you happy for us to move on? Great. Okay, thank you very much. We'll move on to Sioned Williams.

Thank you very much, and good morning. I have a couple of questions that we've been touching upon all morning, actually, regarding monitoring and accountability, and a consistent theme in the evidence that you've provided us with was the fact that there were questions—and we've heard it again this morning—regarding the effectiveness of the monitoring and accountability arrangements. You've spoken a little bit about how that should work on a micro level in terms of the school improvement framework, and perhaps how that needs to have teeth then on a national level. So, it's clear to me, from what I've heard this morning, that the monitoring and accountability arrangements aren't robust enough to reach the ambition, which perhaps isn't always sufficient within the plans themselves, but certainly not in terms of the 'Cymraeg 2050' ambitions, so who, in your view, should be responsible for holding local authorities to account in this regard with regard to failing to reach targets, failing to have sufficient ambition, and failing to weave their plans with other strategies or other things that will come their way? How can we do this more effectively?

Who wants to go first? Clive.

The Government has a role, of course, to form a view on whether they accept the plans as they are presented. I know that the first drafts have been presented to the Government and that a number of them are being looked at again before the finalised versions are approved, so the Government does have a role, of course, in that regard. Once the plans are operational, as I understand it, every authority will report on an annual basis on the progress that they are making in terms of the actions outlined in the plans, and the question is then who is going to monitor whether they are being achieved.

I think we have a role as the inspectorate. We have associate inspectors in all of these authorities, and there may be a way to look at these plans and these annual reports to see what the progress is and to have those discussions and conversations with authorities. That would mean that we would need more resources, because we don't have the resource to do that at present, but there is potential that we could do that work and that would be part of our role, perhaps, in the annual remit letter, potentially. We could present that to the public in a short report. So, there is potential for us to contribute to this work.

That certainly is going to provide a solution in terms of monitoring—what about sanctions? We know—we all know; we've heard for the last 20 years—that the strategic plans aren't sufficient, that they're not achieving the aim at either national or local level. So, what can we do about it? What are the sanctions that we could introduce to ensure that they do reach that ambition?

Clive.

Capital funding for twenty-first century schools is planned and distributed by the Government, so tying that in with the plans, as I said earlier, would be an incentive for the authorities to ensure that there is alignment there and that any school that opens is part of the WESPs in their fullest sense before they are approved. That is one way of encouraging them, but that might be only a small element of it.

The question, Sioned, is a bit of a Christmas turkey question for someone like me, isn't it? But there is a clear role for Estyn here, personally, to work alongside Government officials, not only so that we're confident of receiving these plans, but also that they're operational. You can work within frameworks then, down to school frameworks, school inspection frameworks, inspecting local authorities, us as regions, and other educational institutions. So, the accountability then works through the education system at each level and it is captured, as Clive said there, in the remit letter that Estyn receives on an annual basis, or in the annual reports or reports here too.

There is another element that I would suggest as well, and that is the need to revisit the grants that we receive and that local authorities receive. They are historic grants in terms of their nature and direction, and there's a need—. In the discussions that we've had as regions, we need to bring those together to refocus, to redirect. And the accountability question that you ask then is, 'What has the most impact in the system?', and we have to accept then that we're held to account regarding the most effective way of using that grant funding in order to realise this aim that we're talking about this morning.

Thank you. Again, in terms of—. I was interested when you were talking about legislation and a legal basis for this, because, clearly, I've heard of cases where there is clear conflict between a WESP and other plans. You've mentioned some of them this morning, where plans, for example, to open other schools under the twenty-first century schools scheme contradict the ambitions or aims of the WESPs. But, if we don't have legislation, who is going to hold the Minister to account? Do you agree with that—that, because of these political issues that we've mentioned this morning, we need to have legislation as the baseline for this?

Clive and Arwyn are nodding their heads.

Well, I think the point is valid, isn't it, that the Welsh language is everybody's responsibility. The danger is that we think that somebody else is taking the responsibility. So, I think we need to define, for each institution, what exactly their responsibilities are and their contributions. You have the Government, tier 1, defining the role there. Then, the middle tier, then, you have authorities, universities, further education colleges, regions, Hayden and ourselves and so forth. What exactly is everybody's role there? Are they all fulfilling their duties to enable then that engagement with schools in order to ensure that there is an increase in provision and an increase in numbers? Estyn's role, for me, then, is quite clear in that Estyn's powers then are strengthened to hold those different tiers in the system to account. So, there's room to strengthen Estyn's remit in looking at the system, but also there is room to strengthen so that we are clear what the different roles are of everyone along this journey.

Thank you very much.

Fantastic. Great. Thank you for that. We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas.

Good morning. I'm just going to ask you some questions about school categorisation. So, regarding the significance of the new school categorisation guidance, do you believe there are sufficiently robust arrangements in place to ensure local authorities and schools are supported and encouraged to move along the language continuum? And, as witnesses, what role would you anticipate having in school recategorisation processes? And do you believe that the monitoring and accountability framework is sufficient as the new system is established?

Diolch, Carolyn. Plenty to get through there. Who would like to go first on that?

I'm happy to start on the new framework. I'm sure that the profession is very pleased to see the end of categorisation in the first instance, but hand in hand with that there's the need for schools, authorities and regions to have that accountability and to be transparent. There are two years of the guidance, as it currently stands, still to go, and I think, as we refine the guidance in going forward, we can include the questions that you are asking this morning as Members, in terms of the need to report and to be accountable, so that we can dovetail that with the new strategy so that every governing body and every school report annually on where they are on that journey towards a million Welsh speakers. So, then it becomes a part of the business of every school.

It then becomes part of our work to support those schools on that journey, and then to assess effectively and transparently so that the parents know what's going on and governors know what's going on. Then you report that back and you have a regional and authority picture too. So, there is potential in the new school improvement framework to respond to some of the challenges that you've mentioned this morning, namely to strengthen accountability and to strengthen the transparency of every school on that journey.

Diolch, Arwyn. Clive.

I think, in terms of our role, it would be a role that would weave into that system. I think that is what is mentioned in the new school improvement framework, and, certainly, we'd be able to give attention to a school's language category in our reports. If those schools are in the transformational process, we would certainly look at that in a proportionate and sensitive way because it would be a period of change in those schools as they work towards a different language category. So, that is our role, I think, in looking at the linguistic context of that school and reflecting that in our reports as part of the accountability and collaboration system of working with schools, authorities and the regions in that regard.

Thank you. Enlli or Haydn, was there anything that you wanted want to add there?

Just to say that it's clear that the way that we are moving forward here in Wales with the new categorisation is similar to what's happening in other European countries. So, we've moved away from that model of describing what happens on the ground to a model where there is an expectation on schools to do something specific, so I would think that the accountability and monitoring is going to be easier, if anything.

Great, thank you, Enlli. Carolyn, are you happy for us to move on?

Sorry, can I just ask another question—

Yes, of course.

—which is on categorisation? For example, in north Wales, in north-west Wales, because you're immersed in the Welsh language and it's all around you, it's so much easier to learn outside of school and to pick it up and have confidence to speak it, whereas, in north-east Wales, they're building more facilities for young children to learn through the Welsh language now, using that twenty-first century school funding, and I see children coming through primary schools speaking the Welsh language, but just encouraging them to go into high school and to continue with that Welsh-medium language education is really difficult. It's a confidence thing, I believe, when they get to high school, and it's not around them as well, so it's really, really hard. So, what do you think we can do regarding that? That's something that I always ask. I spent two years in Italy and I, eventually, learnt Italian because it was just around me, but it's really hard, isn’t it, to learn from textbooks?

Yes. You need to be immersed, like you say, don’t you?

You need the immersion. I think that’s going to be an issue, getting over that confidence issue, and carrying it on into adult life.

Absolutely. Thank you for that, Carolyn. Enlli, you had your hand up—you wanted to come in.

In that context, of course, there are different models that can be incorporated into these language categories. The content and language integrated learning model is something that we haven't examined a great deal in Wales, but there is an opportunity for some children to be able to continue to have some subjects through the medium of Welsh. There is another model that we've started here in Wales, a translingual model, but we haven't incorporated this effectively in our education systems. What this allows is the teaching of a child through the medium of their strongest language, while also giving them the experience of another language in order to enrich their experience. So, there is something else that we can do in the English-medium education sector to ensure that children have more of a language continuum.

Thanks for that, Enlli. Is there anything else to add to that? In terms of continuity as part of the WESPs, is that a robust feature? Clive.

On the whole, continuity from Welsh-medium education to Welsh secondary schools in the east is robust. So, I don’t think that continuity is the issue, to be honest with you. A high percentage of children do tend to transfer from Welsh-medium primary to Welsh-medium secondary in those areas.

Thanks for that. Unless someone else wants to come in—

Thank you very much for that question, Carolyn. That was really helpful. Thank you.

—we will move on finally to Hefin David. Now, I know that some points regarding the workforce have been made already, but we’ll look at this now in more detail. Hefin.

Yes, I really wanted to ask, I suppose—it has been touched on throughout the meeting—is there anything additional you'd like to say about equipping the workforce to deliver by 2050? Are there any additional challenges that haven’t been mentioned already that you'd like to add for our inquiry?

Before anyone comes in, I know that Arwyn has to leave in two minutes. Enlli, do you mind if we go to Arwyn first? Is that okay? Arwyn.

Arwyn, you can have your final few moments.

Thanks, Chair. As regards long-term plans, we need these people in schools tomorrow, and we’re talking about medium and long-term planning here. To endorse the points that we were making earlier, it's easy for us to think that there are sufficient numbers of teachers in the Welsh-medium sector, but the Welsh-medium sector is under pressure as well, particularly in the secondary sector. So, there is a real need to promote and market, to look at making the sector more attractive. It's possible that we have to look at financial bursaries to attract students into these areas. It's possible that the worst place we could get to is that we strengthen the accountability around the plans, around the schools, the authorities and ourselves, and so forth, but that we don't have the workforce to truly be able to get this work done. We can argue about legislation, we can argue about definitions, but if we don't have the people to do this—. That's the main factor in this area that we really need to invest in as we go forward.

Thanks for that, Arwyn.

Delyth, can I just ask Enlli directly about the pipeline of academics able to deliver Welsh-medium education, and whether that is sufficient, because there's going to be a blockage there, isn't there?

Yes, I am going to say something slightly controversial now, perhaps, but I think it is important to raise this point. I know that higher education and teacher training has been revolutionised relatively recently, but I would also like to see a revolution where we look at accrediting teacher training courses for Welsh-medium teachers specifically, as opposed to how we are training teachers in general. And there are reasons for that. First of all, every good teacher is going to be a teacher who knows a lot of different things about childhood, in terms of development, teaching and so on, but what we see time and again is that teachers, in a Welsh-medium setting, what they do in one Welsh-medium school, perhaps within the same county, is very different to what they do in another setting. But, perhaps those teachers haven't received the training that would enable them to ask, 'Okay, what can I do? What should I be doing differently here?'

I do feel that there is an expectation internationally that, in minority language situations where the language is relatively successful, such as with the Welsh language, our teachers receive some sort of specialist training. That is the expectation. People ask, 'Well, how do you train your teachers to be expert teachers who know what to do in a context where they are teaching through a medium that isn't a natural language for some of the children?' And the answer is, 'Well, we're not doing that at the moment.' And so, teachers don't spend three years considering those specific issues in detail, or being provided with all of the background information that feeds into the kinds of issues that are vital within WESPs and so on, for those to be achieved effectively. So, I would argue that we need to look again at how we train teachers to be Welsh-medium teachers and how we also train teachers who can speak Welsh and who can then develop the Welsh element within English-medium schools. I don't personally feel that the courses that we currently have achieve those aims.

But, to go back to that element of attracting people to the profession, by doing something like that, perhaps there's also a way to market the fact that Welsh-medium teachers are specialists, and that specialist aspect could bring greater status and esteem to the profession. But, certainly, I think that it is time for us to look again at how we accredit or how we plan the courses in our universities for teacher training.

Great. Hefin.

Can I just say there—? Just a question that follows on from that: are there enough trainers to train? Are there enough academics proficient in the Welsh language to deliver this? I know from my experience as an academic, where you've got shortages in certain subjects you can recruit from abroad, you can recruit from England; you can't do that in these circumstances. So, are there sufficient experts to teach the teachers?

The way that we train teachers currently is a balance between the academics in universities and teachers in the classroom. So, there has been progress in that context, where trainees have the benefit of elements being taught by teachers on the ground. So, that gives us greater scope, but, no, we don't have enough, and there is a need to attract more people to the profession within universities as well.

I just wonder if there is sufficient capacity within the existing number of Welsh language speakers who are able to deliver that level of workforce at the training level. That's the key problem, isn't it? It's a vicious cycle.

Yes, but it's also vital that the trainees who do speak Welsh hear from specialists who don't speak Welsh about the things that they are expert in. But, the issue that students receive their education through the medium of Welsh or can undertake their assessments through the medium of Welsh is a slightly different issue. So, there are ways around it.

Chair, do you mind if I—? Clive wanted to come in. Okay.

It was on another point, Hefin. If you want to finish your question, I'll come in afterwards.

I'm happy to move on now.

In my view, perhaps integrating elements of the sabbatical training could be part of the initial teacher training, and could create more speakers on their journey to become teachers, and that it is a qualification available to anyone who wants to teach in Wales—that they can have that opportunity as part of their initial teacher training.

Hefin, what were you going to ask?

I was just going to go on to the additional learning needs question, and also subject specialisms.

Hefin, just before we do, I think Sioned wants to come in on that.

Just on that point that Hefin raised, one thing that I've heard from the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol—. We know that there is a particular shortage in terms of the teachers who are able to teach science and mathematics through the medium of Welsh, and we know that even in Welsh-medium schools, those subjects aren't taught through the medium of Welsh in terms of A-level. So, I'd like to know whether Enlli or someone else feels that that issue needs to be solved if we truly want to have more teachers who can then study the subject at degree level, and then train to be teachers.

If I could respond there, the danger also sometimes is that we silo languages. Perhaps there's a teacher who may not be confident teaching through the medium of Welsh, and would prefer teaching through the medium of English in science subjects. But, perhaps there are ways of teaching bilingually so that pupils feel confident in discussing the subject in either language and could make that choice, or could pick up on the Welsh language when there is a shortage of Welsh speakers. So, I think we need to look at ensuring that if we are teaching through the medium of English to students or children who can speak Welsh, that they have the confidence to speak Welsh alongside English, in the same way that when they're being taught through the medium of Welsh, that they also feel confident to be able to discuss the subject in English, so that they have that language option then.

Great. Thank you for that, Enlli. We'll go back to you, Hefin.

Diolch. The Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol does a fantastic job, but what I've witnessed is that academics are spread far and thin because of the amount of subject expertise they've got to have. But that is the root, I think, of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. With regard to specialisms, which follows on from that point, if we're going to go deep and provide the kind of specialisms you need to deliver ALN education, for example, which is very close to my heart, that is the biggest challenge, isn't it, to deliver that expertise in Welsh over a period of time. How do you address that? How is that going to be resolved? Because that narrow and deep expertise is very hard to deliver.

Again, we do tend to think in silos in linguistic terms, don't we? When somebody studies through the medium of Welsh in a university in any subject, they're likely to spend a lot of time reading material in English because it isn't available in Welsh. So, the same thing is true. If somebody has expertise and is able to discuss their expertise in front of their students, they can still study through the medium of Welsh, but they can draw benefit from hearing that individual teaching them through the medium of any other language. So, I think we need to have that linguistic flexibility for us to benefit from those experiences without putting barriers in front of students to study through the medium of Welsh, and to develop their Welsh language skills in the same way.

Hayden, I think you wanted to come in as well.

Yes, please. Hefin, you are absolutely right, and we've got the workforce data to confirm this. I think it's no secret either that when you look at STEM subjects, when you look at ALN, you're going down to very, very small numbers of applicants for any job. If they're Welsh medium, you're very, very narrow. So, you're absolutely right, these are the challenges for us in terms of Welsh language. It's pretty well documented, and we've seen that pattern over the years. As I say, even at the global level, as I said earlier, the total number of Welsh-speaking teachers, and those able to teach through the medium of Welsh, despite great work from the coleg and elsewhere over the years, we haven't seen those numbers increase. So, this is why the new 10-year plan from the Welsh Government is good. There will be no magic bullet to fix this. It needs a concerted effort. But what Arwyn said earlier in terms of the here and the now, as well as the medium term and the long term, is really relevant, because some of the initiatives we're looking to move forward in Wales need those extra Welsh-speaking teachers now. With professional roles, it's a competitive market; my organisation, and many others in Wales, want Welsh speakers, and we always struggle to get them. So, we're fishing in a very competitive market in the short term, I'm afraid.

Hefin, is there anything else you wanted to ask?

Just to throw this out there, is there an argument for pay differentials and higher pay for that expertise?

I'll go to Hayden first, and then Enlli wants to come in.

I think it was Arwyn who mentioned incentivisation earlier, and that's something that does happen. There's lots of options on the table. I'm not going to answer the question directly, but I think we need to explore all of the options.

I was just going to say if we're calling them specialist teachers, perhaps there is an argument for given them that higher salary.

Okay. Hefin, are you happy for us to finish now? Yes. Great.

I know we've gone a little over time, but we really appreciate the fact that you have given that additional time to us. A transcript of what you've said will be sent to you for you to check for factual accuracy, and I'm sure there'll be some things that we'd like to follow up with you in writing. But thank you very much for your time, and we look forward to continuing with this work on the inquiry. And thank you to Sioned and Buffy for being with us also.

As a committee, now we'll move on to papers to note. But, to the witnesses, thank you very much.