Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning. Unfortunately, Delyth is unable to chair today's meeting. In her absence, I'd like to propose a motion under Standing Order 17.22, to elect a temporary Chair for today, and that is Heledd Fychan. Are there any objections from Members? No. In which case, Heledd is duly elected as Chair of this meeting. Thank you.

Thank you very much, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to the first meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee of this autumn term. Joining us today is Sioned Williams, from the Children, Young People and Education Committee, as we are undertaking joint work with regard to scrutiny of the Welsh in education strategic plans, as part of this inquiry. So, a very warm welcome to you, Sioned. May I ask Members initially whether they have any declarations of interest to make? No, I see that there are none. If anything should arise, you can mention any interests during the session.

May I also welcome our witnesses to us this morning? A very warm welcome to you, and thank you very much to you for joining us, and thank you to those of you who have submitted written evidence ahead of time—it's very beneficial to us. May I ask you to introduce yourselves, please? If I can start with Ioan, who is in the room.

Good morning. Ioan Rhys Jones, general secretary, Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru—UCAC.

Thank you very much. And if I could go to the screen—Siôn.

Siôn Amlyn, policy and casework official, NASUWT Cymru.

Thank you very much. And finally—.

Eithne Hughes. I'm the director for the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru.

Thank you very much to you, and thank you for joining us, as I said. We will now go straight to questions from Members, and we're starting this morning with a question from Alun Davies.

Thank you very much. Now, the WESPs are the main way we have, the framework we have, for developing Welsh-medium education. Do they work?

I'll start, perhaps. Yes, on the whole, and they are certainly an improvement on what we had in the past. Of course, there are questions arising from the WESPs, and there are questions arising, from our point of view, in terms of the drafts that we've seen. We are aware that the Government has been working with the authorities to refine the plans and to improve them. But there is no doubt that we need a more certain structure, a clearer structure, to give guidance to schools and teachers, and we are looking forward in that regard to seeing what the content of the White Paper in the spring will be, with regard to the Welsh education Bill. There are weaknesses in the drafts that we have seen—a lack of treatment of data, a lack of treatment of data on a local level, a deficiency in terms of mapping. There are questions arising in terms of the ambition of authorities. And it's clear that there are specific issues in terms of developing the provision in our English-medium schools, and getting to grips with qualifications fully. But, on the whole, this way of acting is an improvement as compared to the previous situation.

Thank you very much. If we could go to Siôn. No, sorry, Eithne has her hand up.

Yes. I'd like to reinforce what's been said. We see that there is definitely an improvement in the outline of the new preparation for this provision, and some of the aims are aspirational, it has to be said. We do feel that there needs to be much more emphasis on supporting English-medium schools, in terms of developing the strategy, because that is where we will get to the million learners. Now, that is clearly in there, but from ASCL Cymru's viewpoint, it doesn't have sufficient emphasis in order to foreground that as part of the strategy towards actually delivering this aspirational plan.

I would also say that we do need to have further data around the teacher supply. We don't see individual subject data in the methodology of calculations, and we also don't see the specific numbers in terms of the ability of that workforce to teach Welsh. If we're going to actually build on this incredibly important agenda item, we need to have solid foundations that are based on evidence. If we don't have that planning, then we will struggle to actually get teachers in the classroom who can teach through the medium of Welsh, and that's a fairly obvious point. The question was: are they working? What my members tell me is that they are working in part, but it is not actually compelling and consistent right across the country. There are some excellent pieces of work that local authorities are doing at the moment to support schools in realising this plan, but they too are hard pressed, resources are limited, and therefore there is an issue also around resourcing this vital element. Thank you.

Thank you very much. And Siôn.

Yes. Without rehearsing the comments that have already been made, which I agree with, we know that there are three aspects in response to this question: the WESPs themselves vary in quality, which gives you a range of unique problems. But you also have schools, or rather almost every school, beginning the journey from a different place, depending on where they are at that particular point. And the third aspect, of course, is the support and human resources that are required to help the school deliver the WESP, to develop their journey as they implement the WESP. For example, the peripatetic teachers who would go around schools supporting the Welsh language—because of cuts to grants in 2015, there has been a decline around the country in that provision. And of course, that was of great assistance to schools in delivering the requirements of the WESP within the authority. So, generally speaking, as Ioan has said, they do work and they are making progress. But, as you will have already noted, there is variation in the quality, and in the pace that schools undertake the journey, but I think that's because of the three reasons that I've just outlined there.

Thank you. Alun.

Thank you for those responses. I'm surprised at your responses, to be honest. From my experience, I'm not sure whether they are working. You've all talked about the varied quality of the WESPs. That suggests to me that there is a problem. There shouldn't be that variation across the country. And I remember, as the Minister, sending some back because they weren't good enough, and the Government shouldn't be in that situation. I don't think that there's enough collaboration between authorities. If you look at Blaenau Gwent for example, we have a new school opening in Tredegar, a primary school, but where is the collaboration to ensure that there is a new path to a secondary school? And from my experience, perhaps—. Mr Jones, you say that they are better than what was previously in place, but I would hope for more than that if we're going to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers in this country. So, may I ask you to go back to your responses and tell us where the strengths are with regard to the WESPs, and what the weaknesses are?

Right. Okay. I have to say that there's close collaboration with the local authorities and there is a clear desire to succeed and to move Welsh-medium education specifically forward.

But we know that's not the case everywhere.

We're aware that that's not the case everywhere. We're also aware that we've only seen drafts, to all intents and purposes, and I'm not sure what discussions are ongoing with the Government. And we do have a situation, of course, where—. We can't criticise what has happened. I understand that the Minister has accepted all of these WESPs—

Yes, by now.

—so I assume that they are clear on the ambitions and the mapping. Now, you asked me about the weaknesses. Well, generally speaking, there are weaknesses in terms of the nature of the data presented. Very often—or rather in some authorities, perhaps—there is an emphasis on what they hope to deliver. The planning isn't sufficiently clear in that regard. There is a lack of data and mapping at a local level. You mentioned Blaenau Gwent there. I'm not that familiar with Blaenau Gwent, I'm afraid. I've played rugby there a number of times—

I hope you lost.

[Laughter.] But what we have is a situation within counties where there are different schools, and, at a local level, that mapping isn't happening in relation to the WESPs, and that is a concern because there are major weaknesses in some areas from one county to another. So, we need to refine that, most certainly.

Now, some WESPs are not sufficiently ambitious. There are some that refer to the most challenging targets, and then you have a situation where there is no detailed forward planning taking place in order to target those highest targets. I also see some geographical deficiencies. There is a problem in terms of changing attitudes towards the WESPs. I'll generalise in referring to the west of Wales and saying there is no focus on expanding qualifications through the medium of Welsh. In the east, there is a tendency to think, 'We are providing Welsh-medium education. We're opening a new Welsh-medium school', but, from what we've seen within a number of authorities, they've ignored the need to develop the Welsh language within the English-medium sector. As Eithne has already mentioned, that's where we'll reach a million Welsh speakers. If you're asking me personally, I would ask whether the requirements of the WESPs and what the Government wants to see are radical enough. I don't see the targets being sufficient to reach a million Welsh speakers. It's not sufficient. We need to—

So, the WESPs don't work, then. If they're supposed to be a means of enabling us to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers, and you tell us that they're not radical enough—and I wouldn't disagree with that, by the way—but, if that is your view, then it's clear to me that the WESPs aren't fit for purpose.

Well, there are two sides to this, of course: there is the political side—and we have to be very cautious in that regard. I believe that you are of the same view as me on many aspects of this. The problem is that we're talking about the local authority level here. There is one authority that I'm aware of in the south-west that maps every individual school, and they're starting to discuss the pathway in 10 years' time. That authority is fortunate, perhaps, that they have a workforce that is Welsh-speaking and they can make that progress, but, if we are to deliver a million Welsh speakers, then the leadership has to come from the centre. The Government has to plan at a national level. That's a different question, I suppose, to how the local authorities are responding. Workforce planning is a huge concern of ours. There are deficiencies at the moment. There are gaps in the provision. There are some Welsh-medium subjects that are deficient. The availability of Welsh-speaking teachers is also an issue—

Yes, I understand that.

I appreciate that this is a very important point, but I want to hear from other witnesses, and we have a range of questions to ask. But thank you very much. It was very important to discuss that. May I ask whether there are any other points the witnesses would want to make? Siôn.

Well, two things. If the view is that the WESPs aren't working, there are two aspects to that: either that the WESPs themselves are deficient, as the drafts that are reaching the Government would suggest, or that the infrastructure within the authorities, or indeed the schools, required to deliver the WESPs, is also deficient. So, we need to meet those two problems. One issue that the committee might want to consider is the fact that the local management of schools means that you have school governors and they control the context in terms of what the school adopts and so on. So, if there is a slowness of pace, if you will, in the development or the speed at which the WESPs are developed that is insufficient to meet the target, perhaps we need to look at refining how these demands from the authorities can be adopted by the schools without being filtered, if you will, through the governing body. Now, I'm not generalising there—we have anecdotal evidence that that can be a barrier for these WESPs being adopted and delivered appropriately.

Thank you. Anything to add, Eithne?

My view would be that I don't think any of us have said that this is perfect. We've said that there are aspirations set out, but there are also—. It's a patchy picture that we have across the country. I would agree that we've got some local authorities doing things very well with a very keen eye on exactly what's going on, and others not so. And that's not necessarily a criticism of local authorities, because we've got issues of resource, we have got issues around workforce planning, we've got issues around the infrastructure. But what we probably—. I think what the question brings us in the direction of is that there needs to be a more coherent national strategy that is outlining, in some detail, which we don't necessarily have, precisely how we get to the targets that are set down. One such example that I will give is trainee teachers. We're falling far short in terms of those trainee teachers coming into the profession who can teach through the medium of Welsh. But, if you look at the plan, it doesn't actually tell us how we plug that gap. So, we need to have the specifics in order to reach these aspirational targets, and that needs to be driven from the centre. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Alun, do you have a further quick question?

Just a quick question. It sounds to me that the three of you have said that we need to nationalise the WESPs and more detailed planning centrally.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I think perhaps we do need to also be a little more radical in the provision in the foundation phase throughout Wales.

Thank you.

But that can't happen at a local level.

Okay.

Thank you. Any additional points? Siôn.

Yes, if you want to get rid of that wide range of provision across the nation, if you want to ensure that there are adequate resources and infrastructure, perhaps you do need to centralise.

Thank you. May we move on to questions from Tom Giffard?

Dioch, Heledd. The Minister for Education and Welsh Language said that

‘plans to grow Welsh-medium education over the next 10 years are as ambitious as they can be’.

Is he right?

Well, a question arises of what we consider to be Welsh-medium education, and, as I've just mentioned, perhaps we need to think a little more radically in this area and that we do look at the foundation phase provision in all schools. On the one hand, we could say, 'Well, yes, the provision of Welsh-medium education is growing. It is meeting demand in most places'—not everywhere, and it does vary from place to place. But I don't think that Welsh-medium education is the solution in terms of the Government's strategy. Every one of us has mentioned this morning that it's in the English-medium sector that we need to make progress. But we must ensure that the provision of Welsh-medium education is an education that can develop individuals from the age of three to the age of 18, and, of course, there is a concern about the development of qualifications and what's available, certainly in the post-16 sector, in terms of further education, and I know that this is beyond the scope of WESPs. So, there is room to develop Welsh-medium education, there are some authorities doing better than others, but, generally speaking, the focus, in terms of the strategy, needs to also look elsewhere.

Thank you. Eithne, do you want to come in?

Yes. Just to add to that, what I would say is setting a target doesn't get you anywhere; it's about what happens in order to make sure that you're progressing towards that. And I think there are very worthy ambitions here, but I'm going to go back to the comment that was made about the qualification system and the curriculum that will be on offer for our learners. That curriculum really has to be rich, engaging, and it has to allow youngsters to use language transactionally, and it needs to be, from the very earliest, phased through. And I think that is critical in order that learners are switched on to learning Welsh rather it being simply them being pushed through a continuum. I'd be very interested to see what the Curriculum for Wales Welsh offer comes through as, because I think that framework really has to be engaging for our learners and not a stultifying experience. I'm really hoping that that's what that looks like when it comes through the other side.

The other point I will make, and will go back to, is initial teacher education. Those teachers who are coming into Wales need to have an offer as part of their training, so that they can actually develop language from whatever their starting place is. Whether they have no Welsh language at all, or they're already fluent, there needs to be an offer given to them, so that they, within the network of schools, have got timely and regular contact in terms of developing and growing their Welsh language skills.

The third thing I will say is in terms of the workforce. If we want our workforce—and I'm going back to the English-medium schools because those are where we'll get the numbers—then time needs to be allocated for the workforce, and time equals money; time equals resource. To learn a language, it's immersion if you're starting from scratch, or even if you've got some knowledge, or you need to have regular inputs, and to do that during the working day is clearly going to be a challenge for schools to manage. So, funding is required, resource is required, and high-quality professional learning.

So, the target's fine, but we need to actually look and drill down at how we get to those targets to actually make sure that they're met. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Siôn.

Yes, infrastructure once again. The target is in place, and we can have a discussion on whether it is challenging or not, and whether the strategy itself is challenging, but without the infrastructure in place that is going to support the strategy, then it isn't going to succeed. Eithne has mentioned already that we have to give due attention to staff in the context as it is at present. The language skills amongst staff in our country vary, and there is that huge range, and we need to focus on and allocate resources to those staff, the schools and those authorities where the most work is needed to develop the skills of those teaching through the medium of Welsh.

You have the same challenges with regard to infrastructure—and I touched on this earlier—with regard to athrawon bro, those peripatetic Welsh teachers who go around schools in most places and support the plan and ensure that the school delivers it in accordance with the requirements of the authority. Without that provision, schools tend to reinvent the wheel alone and work in that way. So, the infrastructure needs to be in place so that you can see these challenging aspirations being achieved within the time allocated. And, unfortunately, it all comes down to money, doesn't it, in this case.

Thank you very much. Tom.

Thanks. One further question. I just wanted to ask about local authorities specifically and the implementation of WESPs on a local level. I particularly want to follow up something that Siôn said earlier, where he talked about—and I wrote it down, with the help of the translation—that governors controlled the contexts of what schools adopt. I just wonder whether you can perhaps expand on that and what the challenges are, and perhaps how we could overcome that.

Local management of schools—LMS.

Of course, maintained schools are run by a governing body, and if a local authority, for example, brings forward any sort of plan or strategy, then that first of all has to be adopted by the governing body, and they are then responsible for its implementation. The governors have a right to adapt, amend or revise any policy that comes before them. From an authority's perspective, they are at an arm's length in a way, and in this case from the WESP. So, the WESP might well be brilliant and fit for purpose, but, in sending it out to schools, they are highly reliant on the school adopting the WESP as it is without amendment, and they are reliant on the schools implementing the WESP in accordance with the spirit of that WESP.

This only happens here and there, but we do have evidence as a union of schools putting barriers in place in terms of the implementation of the WESPs, because the governing body might not agree with it or whatever the case may be. I'm not generalising here at all, but it is an anecdotal example of where the WESP has been diluted, let's say, by the time it gets to the school, because of the influence of governors.

Thank you very much. Ioan, or Eithne, do you have anything to add, briefly?

Just to note that, in a way, this is one of the main problems as regards looking at matters in a local context, and we've already spoken about this national level at which we need to be considering these issues, and the national expectation. Therefore, we don't have the same political difficulties as local authorities and governors. It's this national overview that's required.

Thank you very much. Eithne.

I don't have anecdotal evidence for that, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. What I would say is that maybe this comes down to training and it comes down to those communication lines in order to make sure that governors, local authorities and schools are all on the same page with this particular agenda. So that, I think, I would point the committee to. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Hefin David, if we could turn to your questions, please.

Could I ask about the 10-year WESP cycle? How adequate is the accountability and monitoring framework in ensuring that local authorities successfully deliver their WESP ambitions and targets to support Cymraeg 2050?

If we could perhaps start with Eithne, this time.

This was a question that I had asked just recently around the WESPs and was assured that every two years there would be some monitoring of the WESP to make sure that that is aligned to the targets that are set out. Welsh Government expressed a confidence that, despite the fact that it's a 10-year plan, it certainly wouldn't be left for 10 years before there would be any monitoring or scrutiny, because clearly that would not be sensible. That was the assurance I was given, so I've got no reason to doubt that. Thank you.

Diolch. Siôn.

Yes, it's the same, in a way. With the 10-year cycle, as Eithne said, you don't leave it for 10 years and then go to see whether it's developed. It goes back to the comments I've already made in terms of infrastructure. We need some kind of inspection and review structure that ticks over during this period of 10 years to ensure that the schools and the authorities are where they are meant to be on the journey, accepting that schools and authorities start the journey in different places—compare Conwy with Torfaen, for example. But you do need some structure—not an inspection regime—some kind of system that ensures that there is that overview to ensure that the engine is turning.

And Ioan.

Just two quick points. I would ask whether two years is sufficiently early. Does it need to happen earlier? It's a similar point to Siôn's point. I think others who have provided evidence to this committee have mentioned that we need to look at plans not just in a 10-year cycle and that we might need to consider the plans within five years, 10 years, 20 years. I would agree with those comments that have been made.

Thank you. Hefin.

Do the 10-year WESPs make sufficient links with other strategic educational policies, for example the revised school improvement framework and the new curriculum for Wales?

We will ask Ioan to go first on this one.

I think that there is scope to look every 10 years. There are quite clear connections made by the Government, and I think that the Government plans are intended to improve the situation. The 10-year cycle is in place and is working, but we do need to consider doing these things over a period of time, rather than just in chunks of 10 years.

Thank you. Siôn.

Well, certainly, that national overview would enable the Government to see where in the nation the resources are most needed. And in the context of the question that you asked, not only will schools and authorities be in different places on this journey, that is also true with regard to the other policies that you mentioned that are being developed. So, you could have a situation where an authority or a school, because of different priorities, aren't prioritising these WESPs because they have so much other work to do in dealing with a lack or deficiency in terms of other strategies. By having that national overview, the Government could target those areas that need the support, be that with peripatetic teachers or whatever else, to ensure that this plan that we are discussing here today isn't undermined because the attention of staff and funding is being allocated to the other strategies that you mentioned—so, a particular school or authority that needs attention.

Thank you. And Eithne.

I think it really is very good question indeed as to how this coheres with other reforms that are within the system. I would say, with the additional learning needs Bill, I think that's one where there does need to be a closer tie between the Welsh language strategic plan and the aspirations to get to 2050 and what the workforce is actually being developed for in terms of additional learning needs and teaching children who have got specific learning needs. I think there needs to be a lot more work done in that particular area.

The other issue I would point to is the recovery planning following COVID. We have got learners who may be from English-medium families but who have joined Welsh-medium schools and they have lost quite a lot of time during that period. So, they may have lost their confidence in speaking the Welsh language. I know Welsh Government is keen to pursue that, and their recovery plans look at that, but again I think we need to see more of that within the WESPs so that we're actually really getting under the skin of some learners who may have taken a few steps back in terms of their ability to use Welsh or enter a Welsh-medium school if they are in an English-medium family.

And the final thing I will go back to again, and I know I've stated it in response to a previous question, is about the delivery of a really engaging curriculum that really has learners enjoy the Welsh language, and on an extra-curricular basis as well, and that the qualifications at the end of that should not be off-putting. This should not be a deterrent for learners to actually engage with this rich language. I won't mention anything that's happened in the summer because that will distract us from this particular discussion, but those would be my key points. Thank you.

Thank you. Anything else, Hefin? No. Could we move on therefore to questions from Sioned Williams?

Thank you. Good morning. All of you have touched on this already in almost all of your responses, namely the importance of the development of Welsh-medium provision within the English-medium sector. You've said that there are particular issues with it: you've referred to a lack of resources undermining this and that there is not sufficient emphasis on this in the WESPs. So, I would like your views specifically on how the WESPs contribute, and how they should contribute, to the development of Welsh within the English-medium sector. Is it sufficiently clear within the WESPs in your view?

Could we start with Siôn perhpas this time?

In terms of the situation that you describe, you're talking about the schools that have the furthest to travel on the journey and so, naturally of course, the support and resources need to be primarily targeted at those schools. It's a dual issue: you look at the staff, as my colleagues already mentioned; you're talking about English-medium schools that want to develop over this medium-term period into becoming Welsh-medium schools. You need to fund the opportunities for staff to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. Perhaps you'll have to accept that there are staff who don't want to make that journey and perhaps you'd need to look at relocation and so on, but perhaps that might be a more specialist issue rather than a more general one.

And then in terms of the support, I go back to the athrawon bro who I've already mentioned, where you have peripatetic teachers who support the Welsh language and go to the schools that do need that support the most, to provide that targeted support and undertake that local scrutiny to ensure that the support does go to the schools that need that support most. So, it's the same old story; it comes down to that infrastructure once again—we need to refine that for those schools that have furthest to travel.

Thank you. Could I turn to Ioan next?

Thank you. Clearly, from the responses that we've had in some of the WESPs, the requirements for Welsh as a second language, or core Welsh—or however you want to describe it—are not sufficient. A number of counties, particularly on the border, have ignored the provision in the English-medium sector. I could name a few, but I don't want to name people in a negative way. But I do have a question as to whether there is an understanding of that need.

I also think that it's time for us to set challenging targets in terms of Welsh as a second language. I do understand that many here are on the language-learning continuum, but if I asked you whether you started having lessons in a language at five or six years old, and by the time you're 16, you haven't reached a position where you can have a simple conversation—there must be a serious weakness in that system. I do fear perhaps that the new qualifications will reset aims that aren't sufficiently challenging in terms of the language. I'm talking about qualifications, because for many teachers, that's the ultimate aim, rightly or wrongly. So, we need to set challenging targets for those at 16 and then ensure that the infrastructure is in place and that the resources are in place to reach a position where everyone in Wales is functionally bilingual. I see that in one or two WESPs, but there's no consideration at all as to how to make everyone bilingual in all of them. So, this is something that needs to be addressed in earnest. It isn't adequate in terms of the responses that we've seen. It's possible that the Government may have noted that and set more challenging targets.

It is related, of course, to the language continuum and how we categorise schools. On the one hand, I'm very disappointed that there's been some dilution in terms of the categorisation of schools to allow bilingual schools to describe themselves as Welsh-medium schools, although the provision isn't made available through the-medium of Welsh. But on the other hand, there's progress where schools can develop from being English-medium schools to Welsh-medium schools ultimately. I do see reference in some WESPS to where they mention that there would be three schools on that journey in coming years, and that's wonderful, but what we need there, and I’m coming back to this in a way: does this Welsh education Act ensure that there is clear guidance and clear expectations laid down? The WESPs are part of the provision, and are important in setting an agenda, but the leadership and the expectations must be set centrally in this education legislation, and I look forward very much to seeing what they have to say in the White Paper. But this is a huge concern. So, yes, they're not adequate as they stand, clearly, and we need further guidance.

Thank you. Can we turn finally to Eithne?

I don't really have a terrible lot to add to that, apart from the fact that it's absolutely clear that the English-medium schools are where we're going to get these targets hit. And it's not just hitting the target for the sake of hitting the target, it's hitting the target because it's important to the country. As far as ASCL Cymru members are concerned, some of the feedback they've given me is that some local authorities basically are ignoring the English-medium schools in terms of this particular agenda. That won't be deliberate; it will come back again to resource, it will come back again to infrastructure. Those schools in the most need are clearly the English-medium schools, but they will require the most resource, they will require the biggest input.

I know I keep coming back to the same point, but local authorities at the moment are absolutely strapped for cash. Many of them are struggling, and I think we need to recognise that. How we manage to support local authorities in supporting this agenda is a question, I guess, for Government level, and that isn't to point the finger at Government, because again, they're strapped for cash, too. I would say there are some quick wins that could happen, but they again will require time. That professional learning offer needs to be very high quality; it needs to be very compelling and it needs to be something that people really want to do. It needs to ensure that the language is used in a way that is transactional, that is modelled in schools, not just in a superficial way, but that somebody can at the end of a period of time of learning use the language in a way that they can understand what's being said and they can actually have even a basic conversation with someone.

It concerns me; in our qualifications system as it stands, if you have a 16-year-old who's got a C grade, for example, in Welsh second language, can they hold a conversation in Welsh? There has been a shift recently to try and really forward the oracy element of Welsh second language, which we would certainly approve of, and that I think is a good development. That really must be a very significant part of what these new qualifications are going to look like, and what the continuum looks like for a learner who is picking up Welsh and doesn't have it at home. They need to actually look at that framework and be able to work their way through it in a way that allows them to communicate. It sounds straightforward, but we all know it's complicated. Thank you.

Thank you very much. May I just inform you all that we have 15 minutes left in this session? So may I ask for the questions and responses to be succinct, please, as we continue, so that we can get through the rest of the questions? If we can go back to Sioned, please.

Thank you. You've answered this partly, but I'd just like to know the view of the other witnesses in terms of specific concerns about this new categorisation and the guidance. You said perhaps that the guidance would benefit from being statutory in nature, but I'd like to hear the other two witnesses' views on that. How would that improve things? How would having these guidelines statutory improve the situation? So, just your comments on the categorisation and the guidance, please

If we can turn to Eithne first.

The categorisation needs to be much more clearly outlined. Schools need to understand what is required of them. Again, this is a point I raised just recently and have been offered a meeting in order to discuss that framework and having some flesh on those bones. So, I think that is required. I wouldn't particularly go down the route of statutory requirement. We need hearts and minds to be won with this. However, what I would say is that I do have schools here saying they just don't know what is required of them to move along that continuum. The other thing we need to be very careful of is that if schools are moving categories, they are not leaving staff behind and that staff are not ending up unable to be employed in particular areas as a consequence of any moving of category. We need to be inclusive within this agenda item. Thank you.

And Siôn.

At the moment, schools are grateful that the categorisation is nonstatutory, because if it was a requirement, because of the current financial situation, I think they would truly regret that. But having said that, because they are nonstatutory, you don't get that flow in the schools to realise and achieve this important aspiration. So, certainly, making them statutory would put more pressure on schools to ensure that they do comply and that there is quality in the WESPs, but you can't do that in isolation, you will have to provide the funding and the support. Again, it all comes down to infrastructure, a word that I've used often. You have to put that infrastructure in place if you are to make them statutory. At the moment, schools can take a break, particularly when they're short of funding, they can see where they are and try and sort things out. Now, that might not be ideal for reaching the target, but ensure that the financial support is there as well as the staffing support before you make them statutory and things will improve.

Thank you. Sioned.

May I ask, briefly, to conclude: what else could the Welsh Government do to encourage or incentivise local authorities to improve this aspect of the WESPs? Is there anything that could be done in terms of the capital funding envelope to help facilitate these longer term plans?

Who would like to go first on that? Eithne.

I think resource is required on this one. I think there needs to be heavy investment. However, it doesn't appear that that will be coming any time soon, given the situation that we've got across local authorities at the moment in terms of a lack of funding. So, I think funding is required, resource is required, high-level professional learning, all of the things that we've already pointed to within the system, coming back to that business of having a structure that supports the aspirations and targets of this agenda. Thank you.

Thank you. Siôn, do you have anything to add?

Until 2015, you had these Welsh in education grants, and they were used to support exactly this kind of provision in schools that most need help to move ahead on this journey. That has gone since 2015, and the authorities since then have had to fund whatever provision is in place, for example those teachers who go around the schools to give that support. So, when that grant existed, there was more prosperity and better resources. So, to answer the Member's question, something similar, if it were to be reintroduced, would take you back to that kind of infrastructure and the support that existed at that time.

Ioan.

Very briefly, I do think we need to focus, as it is a 10-year programme as things stand, on what happens in the foundation phase and in primary schools. It will then be a natural development in the secondary schools. But we need to focus on what's happening. The targets are further down, aren't they? We need to focus on developing staff and resources. That's where the focus should be at the moment. We could almost forget the secondary sector at the moment, to secure success in the longer term.

Thank you very much. We'll turn now to questions from Carolyn Thomas.

Okay. You mentioned about having learning advisers going around schools. We used to have the curriculum advisers, didn't we, at one time, before the consortiums took over—GwE. Do you get any assistance from GwE in this matter—sorry, the education consortiums?

We'll go to Siôn first of all.

That is what has happened, in a way. When the Welsh in education grant was abolished in 2015, the authorities and schools have had to turn to other sources of support for this provision. You are entirely right, the consortia have taken on some of this load. But, you do also see schools turning to the third sector to ensure that this provision continues. The Urdd comes in, the Scouts come in, to offer this provision and try to plug the gaps that exist because of the deficit that has been created when this grant was abolished. So, yes, the consortia do contribute, to answer your question, but are they at arm's length? Do we need something more focused?

Thank you. Clearly, that was a specific question for Siôn. Does anyone have anything to add?

The only thing I would say is that we need to look at the remit of the consortia. In fairness to them—you've mentioned GwE—there's only so much that they can provide of course. We're talking about the third sector here. One point that I would make very strongly in terms of Welsh-medium provision and the categorisation of schools is that Welsh language activities aren't necessarily going to ensure that we reach the target, and that is a huge concern. So, I don't think that we could criticise consortia in this regard, at least, but the leadership has to come at a national level. If they have a clear remit in this area, I'm sure that they would provide, but the support varies from place to place. Perhaps the consortia are overly focused on the Welsh-medium sector and the English-medium sector and that there is not enough crossover at the moment.

Thank you. Any other comments, Eithne?

No.

Can I turn back to Carolyn, please?

Okay, I'm going off script again here. It's just with reference to what Eithne was saying earlier about training for teachers in Welsh language. There was an announcement recently about free Welsh lessons available for 18 to 25-year-olds and teaching staff. It says about having online portals and education facilities available, but I guess you need to have time to do that, and it's not the same as immersion, is it? So, I'd just like your input on that. Will this that's been offered make a difference, if you have seen this announcement? Just your views.

Thank you. If we can turn to Eithne. Thanks.

That's fine, and a good question. Yes, I had seen that that was on offer, and very welcome indeed. But, I think it does come back to the business of time. So, how do we learn a language? How do we acquire a language? It needs to be frequent, in short bursts, and it needs to be very regular, if it's not an immersion course. To do that, you need to have time in the working week in order that that can actually be delivered. Time is in short supply in schools because funding is limited. Possibly, in a timetable of 25 hours, you may well have just a couple of hours that you've got for preparation and planning. So, it doesn't give you sufficient time to do some of this incredibly important work, but that is going to make the difference. So, if we're expecting staff to go into a portal and do this in the evening when they've got a stack of marking to do, it's going to end up being secondary to the day-to-day job of just trying to get through all of the workforce pressures that are upon teachers as they currently stand. Thank you.

Thank you. Anything to add, Ioan?

Well, clearly, we welcome the additional support from the Government, and we also welcome the sabbatical schemes that the Government has and the way that they're trying to encourage use of the Welsh language more widely. But I have a question—and I don't want to be overly critical here: is this going to be sufficient in terms of meeting the needs of the language strategy? Immersion is what succeeds, and it's immersion from an early age. So, yes, we welcome this, and it's wonderful to be able to say, 'Helo, shwmae?', to individuals, but I don't see how this is going to contribute a great deal towards that wider strategy.

Thank you. And Siôn.

It's an important point, isn't it, because this is employment at the end of the day, and employed staff need to be able to do their work; you don't want some frustration of contract. So, it's crucially important that there are as many possibilities available as possible for them to be immersed and to be proficient in Welsh and, as Eithne has said quite rightly, you need time allocated to this.

Teaching is one of these strange roles where the teaching doesn't stop. So, if you're out of the classroom for six months on a sabbatical, that teaching has to continue without you, and there's funding required for that, to get supply teachers in and so on to teach your classes, which may be different to some roles where you can park your work for six months whilst you are being immersed. So, we need that investment of time that will enable staff to take this training during work hours, not in addition to their work hours, but without that having a detrimental impact on the lessons that they would be teaching and would have been teaching had they been before the class.

Thank you. Carolyn, is there anything that you'd like to add briefly?

Just what level of engagement do you think is taking place between local authorities and stakeholders regarding the development of the WESPs? Do you think it could be improved in the future? And to what extent do local authorities utilise the Welsh-medium education forums, where they're established, and the perceived impact of the forums on the individual WESPs?

That was a big question and we have three minutes left, I'm afraid. So, may I ask for succinct comments, beginning with Ioan?

Yn gyflym, it varies from county to county, from authority to authority. Perhaps an authority that you might know quite well, I believe that they engage very well. However, it does vary, and perhaps more can be made, because some WESPs didn't even refer to external stakeholders, and further education is not always included within these forums either.

Yes, that's important, isn't it?

Thank you very much. Eithne.

I have nothing to add, apart from what we've already said, which is that it is not consistent across the country. So, I think that consistency is important. Thank you.

Thank you. And Siôn.

Nothing to add to the comments made by Eithne and Ioan.

Thank you very much. As time has defeated us, I will give you a very brief opportunity to say anything that you believe should be noted by the committee that you haven't had an opportunity to say as of yet. Ioan, anything you wanted to add?

Just to emphasise how important workforce planning is and ensuring that the profession is something that appeals to people, and that we reward skills, such as being able to speak Welsh and teach through the medium of Welsh effectively, and do so fairly, because we have a great concern that the planning at present, shall we say, is not effective, never mind the planning for 10 years hence.

Thank you very much. Eithne.

I've nothing further to add, but I'd just like to thank the committee for giving time to this agenda item. Thank you.

Thank you very much. And Siôn.

Appropriate and adequate infrastructure to enable these WESPs to succeed in the short time ahead in terms of staffing and resources.

Excellent. May I thank you all very much as witnesses for joining us today, being so willing to give evidence, and honest evidence of your views—we appreciate that very much—as part of our inquiry? We will take a short break now as a committee. We'll reconvene at 10:40, but thank you very much to the witnesses.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back. We are continuing with our inquiry into the Welsh in education strategic plans. Thank you very much to our witnesses for joining us. May I ask you all to introduce yourselves and state who you represent, for the record, please? If we can start in the room.

Heini Gruffudd, chair, Dyfodol i'r Iaith.

Elin Maher, national director, Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg.

Thank you very much. And if I could now turn to Dyfan.

Dyfan Sion, strategic director, Welsh Language Commissioner's office.

And, finally, Toni.

Toni Schiavone. I'm chair of the education group for Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, and I'm here in place of Mabli Siriol, who is the chair.

Well, thank you very much for joining us. We have an hour, and a number of questions. May I also thank you for the interesting evidence that you presented to us? This is an important part of our work as two committees working jointly. Sioned Williams is joining us from the children and young people committee. I will warn you that Alun Davies will have to leave us at 11:00. There is a memorial service for the late Mohammad Asghar in the Senedd today. So, he is not storming out as a result of your evidence, but I just wanted to warn you of that. So, if I could turn, first of all, to Alun to ask his questions.

Thank you very much. Are the WESPs working?

Who would like to go first? Elin?

Well, it's early yet, I think, to know whether the current plans are working.

But the WESPs as a framework.

Well, as a framework, the new framework, without a doubt, is an improvement on the previous one. This is because we are looking at the early years. I think outcome 1 is important, and the elements that give that basis to feed into the outcomes in the statutory stages are important too. But, I think what any increase in detail does is point out weaknesses, possibly, that also need to be tackled. So, although they are an improvement on the previous situation, they are not perfect by any means.

Okay.

Thank you. If I could turn to Heini.

Thank you. I agree with Elin, but perhaps I would go a little further. Now that they are 10-year plans, I welcome that, but I am very concerned that local authorities are setting down in 10-year plans what we would have previously seen in the five-year plans. There has been an announcement that there will be 22 or 23 new Welsh schools, but that's one for every local authority by 2030. That doesn't suggest any real additional momentum from what we've seen in the past. Secondly, education authorities—or some education authorities—are using these plans to delay progress. Swansea, for example—and I know more about Swansea than elsewhere—is saying that they would look at perhaps establishing more Welsh-medium schools. That wording is vague and I fear that it's inadequate in terms of the additional momentum that we want to see.

One thing that they don't do specifically is to link the growth in Welsh-medium schools with the great need for additional staff. Swansea notes, for example, that there will be a need for an additional 40 teachers, an additional 40 support staff, if they are to establish another three schools in Swansea, but there is nothing in these plans that joins up the staff development that would be required. At the moment, there is a shortage of staff, there is a shortage of teachers being trained and the targets are inadequate. I think 250 are currently being trained every year; we need 600. So, we need to totally transform the teacher training system and put great emphasis on that. Without that, we might as well forget the growth of Welsh-medium education. It's good that they are available—

Well, it doesn’t sound like you welcome them.

Well, they're fine, they have been fine, and they are a development on what we've had in place in the past. But somehow, we need a shift of momentum if we are to reach our targets, so we need something more transformational than the sluggish system that we currently have.

If I could turn to Toni.

I'm not quite as eager to confirm the current system. They've failed for seven years, and a review by Aled Roberts has shown the deficiencies. There are a number of recommendations in that report, and they've not all been implemented. There is no statutory force behind these plans. I think we'd need stronger and clearer leadership from the Welsh Government, and I think as well we need to ensure that there's a review system for these WESPs, not by Welsh Government officials, but those who have the skills to do that, namely, Estyn. What we need from local authorities is action plans within a national strategic plan based on the 2050 targets. So the aim is to get every pupil leaving school in Wales being able to speak Welsh, and the role of the local authorities is to plan for that. That is what the nature and purpose of the plans are on a local authority level, in our view, as Cymdeithas.

Diolch. Gaf i droi, yn olaf, at Dyfan?

Thank you. I would say that the existing framework is certainly an improvement on the previous framework. I agree with Toni that the framework perhaps hasn't dealt with all the recommendations of the review. Having said that, we welcome the fact that they are 10-year plans. There are clear outcomes in the guidance, and the guidance is relatively detailed, too. There are problems—from what we saw in the drafts, the WESPs are very detailed on the first three or four years, and then provide a more ambiguous vision for ensuing years. I also agree that there are remaining questions on the review and inspection processes, and there needs to be more assurance in that area.

The other thing I would say is that the WESPs aren't going to deal with everything that's needed. The WESPs are part of a broader strategy, and there are gaps in those things supporting that. Perhaps we will come to that later, as we consider the proposed education Bill.

Thank you. Alun.

Thank you for that. You've almost all said something very similar; perhaps Toni hasn't. But, just because the current WESPs are better than what used to be in place, that doesn't mean that it is this system that is going to enable us to reach the Cymraeg 2050 target. So, what are the three things, say, that you would like to see changing with regard to the current system to enable us to reach the targets that we've all agreed?

I'm going to start this time with Dyfan.

As I said, the WESPs are just one part of the jigsaw. So, the rest of the framework and strategy need to support and contribute towards the WESPs, and we refer a fair bit to this in the written evidence that we shared with you. But succinctly, I think, initially, we need a more co-ordinated approach for the support and capital budget available for schools in Wales. I also think that we need to make the process of moving schools along the linguistic continuum easier, and one thing that we wouldn't expect the WESPs to deal with—and they don't—is that situation in terms of the English-medium sector in Wales, and how they will contribute towards the creation of confident Welsh speakers. Now, that sector is expected to contribute if the Government is to reach its targets in Cymraeg 2050.

And then finally, what I would say is that, clearly, we need to increase the number of teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh. We welcome the Government's 10-year plan, but again, in terms of the commitment contained within it, I don't think that they are sufficiently far-reaching as things stand to contribute towards the Cymraeg 2050 strategy.

So, those are the things that I think are needed in order to strengthen and facilitate the implementation of the WESPs.

Thank you. Toni.

Three things. First of all, the teaching and assessment continuum across schools. At the moment, we allow schools that aren't Welsh-medium schools to pursue a different assessment pathway to that of English-medium schools. There is no overlap in the draft assessment proposed by Qualifications Wales between a qualification for English-medium schools and Welsh-medium schools. You can't justify that educationally. That's just rebranding and continuing with the current system—a system that fails 80 per cent of pupils in Wales, and will continue to do that despite the work done through the WESPs. So, that's the first point.

Secondly, I agree with what Dyfan said: we need a schools continuum. We need to ensure that every authority plans to move schools along a continuum whereby we get rid of the idea of English-medium schools; they should be bilingual-medium schools becoming a Welsh-medium school, and to plan deliberately for that. Carmarthenshire County Council has already done that through identifying 10 schools that will move along the continuum, but that mindset and that transformational demand isn't extended across WESPs and across the schools of Wales.

Thirdly and vitally important, we can't have any transformational change unless we have a promotional and developmental strategy amongst the current workforce, as well as with the future workforce. So, we need a strategy that commits every teacher to a regime of supporting and introducing the Welsh language to every pupil, so that they do leave school fluent in Welsh. That is a transformational ask. May I suggest that you look at what Dyfed Powys Police is doing, where they've already committed that every one of the new police officers recruited will start on that path of improving their Welsh whilst they are at work? That scheme was launched yesterday. It shows vision, it shows a detailed plan and an intention to ensure that the Dyfed Powys Police workforce is entirely bilingual in future.

Thank you very much. Heini, three things.

Well, I have some 12 things listed [Laughter.] First of all—I will try and stick to three—I agree on the concept of moving schools along the continuum so that bilingual schools become Welsh-medium schools. But underpinning that, we need to reconsider how we think about the development and modeling of Welsh-medium education. Traditionally, we have thought of needing capital to establish new schools. No thought has been given to looking at an urban area; if you have four English-medium schools, that one could change over time to become a Welsh-medium school so there would be no capital cost, and Welsh-medium education could be developed more swiftly. The problem of Welsh-medium education in the past in this context has been that we've relied on existing schools, which has slowed down growth.

The other point I would like to make is that we need to plan Welsh-medium education at a far more micro level. We've carried out a study in Swansea as to where pupils live—that's those pupils attending Welsh-medium schools. The percentages going to Welsh-medium schools from council estates are around 20 per cent, 25 per cent, because there is a Welsh-medium school nearby. In an area where there is no Welsh-medium school nearby, the numbers attending Welsh-medium education are around 4 per cent. So, we need to look at the micro level in discussing with authorities which areas don't have a local Welsh-medium school, with the aim of placing a Welsh-medium school within convenient reach for parents and pupils. And related to that, there are transport issues, nursery education issues, and so on.

And finally, we have seen the Government following a STEM programme to encourage pupils to study scientific subjects. We need the same encouragement to encourage teachers and prospective teachers to teach through the medium of Welsh—some of the things that Toni mentioned now. We need quite some drive in order to increase the number of staff. If that doesn't succeed, then nothing will succeed, ultimately. Now, leading on all of this, there should be an independent language body that drives this forward strongly. At the moment, everything is dispersed between a number of departments and a number of plans that aren't co-ordinated.

Why must they be independent? What's wrong with the Government doing this?

I'm not convinced that the Government has acted as it should have done over the past 20 years. We've had—

The fact that you disagree with the Government doesn't mean that the Government shouldn't act in a particular way. That's the democratic body that we have.

Yes. Well, we've had five or six Welsh language Ministers, with different priorities; civil servants change. There is no real consistent drive in the same direction, unfortunately.

I don't agree.

May I ask Elin to come in?

Well, I echo a number of the points that have already been made. But from the point of view of parents, I think it's important for the narrative to start changing in Wales in terms of Welsh-medium education. We still see ourselves having to pass on messages about the benefits of bilingualism, and that should be something that's relegated to the past. We have to be far more strong and much more positive in the narrative that we transmit, and that's from the top down. And more than that, as there are now 22 local authorities with individual plans, there is a wide variety of narratives across the nation and in terms of that confidence. So, I think we need to see a change in the narrative, and ensure that our pupils across Wales do receive both languages as early as possible, and that that should happen as soon as possible. Heini and others have already talked about the slow pace of the current system, and that is a cause for concern for parents who see Welsh education as a battle rather than the norm. So, we need to look at how we change that narrative nationally.

The second thing that I would want to suggest is that we start looking at bringing early years and post-16 education into the statutory education system. Without those two poles, I don't think we're going to lay that foundation in the early years and draw in all of the other programmes, such as Flying Start, and any other project in the early years that is getting to grips with poverty, for example, in the community, and so on. We need to bring all of those together and show that the Welsh language is at the heart of all of those programmes. But also, in terms of post-16 provision, if we're talking about the workforce, if we don't ensure the accessibility and adequate numbers of courses for Welsh education post-16, then that workforce isn't going to come through. So that post-16 element is vital.

And in terms of accessibility, I know I'm not allowed to use long words, but 'accessibility' is a very important word. It means how pupils reach schools. There's a huge variety across Wales in terms of the provision of transport, but also transport for early years too. There are challenges with regard to that, and we are involved in those challenges on a daily basis.

And a third thing, which is a priority for us, is to ensure that the Welsh language is at the heart of the plans of all our local authorities, and not some kind of bolt-on or add-on. The plans need to be at the heart of the education offer of every local authority. At the moment, legislation with regard to education is all over the shop. We need one central point, one central piece of legislation that ensures that all of these challenges can be faced, and that we ensure that Welsh education is accessible in the local area for every child, from the age of five to 19.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. On that final point—. And I thank Alun Davies, who is leaving us now. Could I ask whether anyone would like to add anything? Elin's made some proposals as to how the Welsh Government and its partners can better support local authorities in the future. Does anyone have anything to add in terms of that? Perhaps I could turn to Toni.

I have to say—and I might be naive here—but I do believe that, within Welsh Government, we do have people who have a vision and a commitment to change the system in order to ensure that it's transformational. I'm not as convinced that that is the case among officials. I have to say that the failure of officials to respond to things, such as the report on second language Welsh by experts in 2013, is very concerning indeed. So, one thing that needs to be ensured is that if a body such as the Welsh Language Commissioner, or some other body, puts forward a report to Welsh Government, they need to take those recommendations seriously and respond to them within a specific period of time. How can it be that, in 2013, we had that report on second language Welsh, and it noted quite clearly that it was crucial to take action within three to five years, to totally transform the Welsh-as-a-second-language system, and that simply hasn't happened? How is it that, today, we hear Qualifications Wales saying that the gap between second language and first language Welsh is too wide to have both assessments overlapping? However, in 2013, the report conducted on second language Welsh argued strongly that both assessments should overlap and that there should be a dual award. I will refer you to paragraph 4.38 in the report on second language Welsh from 2013. Has the situation declined or are those reports and recommendations getting to you in Welsh Government and you are allowing officials just to hide or bury them? Why aren't you taking action on the recommendations made by experts who spent extensive time looking at these issues and providing ways forward for you? That's the one thing that you, as Welsh Government, could ask of yourselves. Do you have the vision? I think so. Do you have the people who are committed to ensuring that the Welsh language develops? Yes. Why isn't it happening and why hasn't it happened?

Thank you, Toni. I'll just make it clear, for the record, that we are a scrutiny committee not the Government, but these are certainly questions that we can pursue with the Government as part of this inquiry. But thank you for being so clear in terms of that challenge for us. Heini, may I ask you?

Well, I agree with what Toni has said, but to extend it to other fields. For example, in 2013, we had a report, or was it 2011? When did we have the report from Dr Elin Jones on history and the importance of teaching a corpus of general information for schools? That was accepted by the committee, but the next Minister ignored that report. And in light of rejecting the history of Wales—and I think the importance of history and identity is vital for pupils, especially those in English-medium schools, who want to learn Welsh, so that they have the vital background to what they're learning—as a result of that, a very influential committee was established, and rightly so, to promote BAME education. That's been accepted by the Government. One of the things emanating now and which goes to every school as a result of the work of that committee is a poster that shows 112 pictures of people from BAME backgrounds, and two of those are from Wales. They've taken on this history agenda in an entirely British or English direction without emphasising the Welsh aspect. So, we need to have some kind of co-ordination of action within the Government—who does what, how do we provide that vital background to schools in Wales in terms of their locality, nation, Britain and the world? At the moment, that isn't entirely clear in terms of what is happening, and that policy is not being adhered to, unfortunately, in the work of the BAME committee.

But, yes, fine, we have the coleg Cymraeg. It's vital, I would say, in terms of training teachers and influencing different education colleges. But the Government needs to provide greater powers to the coleg Cymraeg, so that they can, on a practical level, develop the work that it is impossible for civil servants to do. In the past, we've seen the same thing when we had the apprenticeships plan 10 years ago—no word of the Welsh language in that. I think it might have improved since then. However, the general mindset that sometimes emanates from the civil service ignores the Welsh language entirely.

Thank you. Could I ask you, Dyfan, if there's anything you want to add in terms of how the Welsh Government and its partners can better support local authorities in the future?

Well, I think, if I focus my comments specifically on the WESPs, because it is important to remind ourselves that this is a Government process and it's Government's responsibility as to whether these WESPs succeed or fail. There is a risk, I think, if things don't succeed or go wrong that there will be some finger pointing, and there is too great an expectation, perhaps, on some individual local authorities.

So, in terms of the WESPs themselves, the review and monitoring system is important. There are review arrangements in place between local authorities and the Government on a two-year basis. There is a more far-reaching review after five years. We need to understand more about that, I believe.

In terms of what the Government itself can do to support local authorities, there are a number of things that could be done in terms of policy, strategy, or legislation too. So, for example—and we've already mentioned some things—we need to significantly strengthen the statutory basis of the linguistic categories. It's good that there is guidance in place, but we need a firmer foundation for that, making the work of local authorities and schools far easier. We've already mentioned the process of moving schools along the language continuum. Again, there is more that the Government could do there in supporting local authorities. So, that's the important thing for us in terms of principle, that this is a Welsh Government process; it's their responsibility to ensure that it succeeds, and, to ensure that it does succeed, then they do have to provide that support needed for local authorities so that they can act consistently in this area.

Thank you very much. Is there anything to add, Elin?

Well, coming back to the importance of the Welsh education fora that have been convened, but also, perhaps, the serious responsibility of these fora to be monitoring as we go forward. We're very fortunate as an organisation that we've had a place on a number of fora already. We've contributed towards the formation of a number of local authorities' plans, and we've responded to the 22 that came forward. But, we also feel that the responsibility on these fora is very important. If those organisations and bodies that are able to participate in these fora haven't already done so and haven't exerted their influence, then where have they been? These fora are vital if, in the interim, we want to see these schemes succeeding and also challenging local authorities.

But, I think we need to come towards these plans from two directions. The local needs to have a voice, and a number of local authorities have good practice in place with regard to these plans, and, this week, a number of the fora have restarted with the new plans and they actively have a genuine desire to see these plans increasing accessibility and ensuring the growth of Welsh education. But, we also need to have that monitoring and that element of Welsh Government and Senedd involvement. I think it's very important that you as Members of the Senedd also scrutinise the growth and progress of these plans in these earlier months and years. So, I think it's important that we emphasise the importance of these fora and ensure their efficacy in order to support this work. I see this process as a very important part of the collaboration at a local level, but there should also be a way to ensure that everyone knows what's happening, and that the plans and their progress through the process are transparent and clear for everyone to see.

Thank you very much. I'm going to turn now to questions from Hefin David. I want to warn everyone that we are halfway through this session. We have half an hour left, so may I ask for questions and answers that are succinct, please? But, clearly, we do want to hear your views clearly too.

Could I return to the 10-year WESP cycle? As witnesses have said, 10 years is a very long time in politics. Do you have anything to add to your comments as to how adequate the accountability and monitoring framework is in ensuring that local authorities successfully deliver on their WESP ambitions and targets to support Cymraeg 2050?

If I could turn, first of all, to Heini.

Thank you very much for the question. What doesn't happen effectively within the WESPs is responding to urgent or critical situations. There are numerous examples of schools being full to overflowing. The WESPs do nothing to help them. And what happens on occasion is that local authorities will include in their five-year WESPs, or 10-year WESPs as they are now, what should be resolved as a matter of urgency. So, there needs to be far more monitoring on the exact situation of Welsh-medium schools as a matter of urgency. And then you could add, if you like, that you need to have emergency plans, and then five, 10 and 20-year plans. So, you need a range of plans across the spectrum.

How often do you think that review needs to happen?

If you are differentiating between the emergency plans and the others, well that needs to happen annually. If you're then thinking about realistic development in the longer term and targets, then five, 10 and 20 are fine. But looking every two or three years would also be fine. But with a situation where schools are full to overflowing—and it's happened far too often—then you do need that annual review to ensure that progress is made.

Elin, I saw you agreeing.

Yes, because it is a question I've asked very recently. The problem, I think, that perhaps might arise, as Heini has said, is when there are situations where we have to respond urgently to a particular issue.

I always see the glass as being half full rather than half empty—I think that's the right way round. I hope that these plans are live plans, so that if there is a need to change or adapt a plan, then the local authorities will need to be very flexible with their plans and be honest and brave and transparent enough to adapt them as the need arises. We know that, as schools are built and open, there is general interest within a community that supports that new provision, and that then means that the numbers applying for a place in Welsh-medium education increases too. We've seen that recently in Newport, for example, where we've opened four primary schools within 15 years. So, we do have to be willing and ready to be flexible—local authorities need to. But I've already heard the narrative, 'Well, it's not in the WESP.' And we have to then ensure that our officials on the ground are ready and realise the importance of that flexibility to respond to urgent situations.

But also, if I may also add, the mechanism and machinery around the WESPs need to be flexible too. So, with funding, for example, unfortunately we still hear, 'We can't do that because there is insufficient funding', or, 'This isn't part of a band B plan; it's part of band C'. Well, band C hasn't been set out or published yet. So, we need to ensure too that if there are needs, that the machinery around the WESP is in place to ensure that the growth can happen.

Thank you. Do Toni or Dyfan have anything to add? Toni. Sorry, if you could start again; your mike was muted.

Thank you. There are four specific things I'd like to refer to. First of all, we need a strong statutory framework. That's why we need a new Welsh language education Act. Secondly, we need action plans. As well as the 10-year plan, we need action plans on a year-by-year basis, to be reviewed after three years by the local authority, and to be inspected by a body such as Estyn. Not that every authority would be inspected every three years, but certainly, every three years, there should be an inspection of a cluster of local authorities to see to what extent they are making progress. That then gives an opportunity for the strategic plans to be more strategic, more ambitious, and indeed, to raise expectations. If there's anything that depresses one in looking over the WESPs that we have seen, it's that the expectations set out are so disappointing. And that's one of the most damning things about Welsh-medium education—that our expectations are too low. And this is one way of changing that. And by the way, that system of a WESP, and an annual action plan, and regular inspection is already in place in local authorities in other areas. And as one who worked in a local authority for 12 years, it is entirely practical to implement such a plan.

Just briefly, in the first instance, we welcome these 10-year plans; that's something that we asked for. That enables more strategic planning to take place. We welcome too the clear outputs in the framework this time around. Having said that, as some of the other witnesses have already said, there are concerns about how exactly that will be implemented. What we've already seen in terms of the current drafts is that there is great detail in the first two, three, four years, but the plans after that are more ambiguous. To be fair to the local authorities, perhaps it's harder for them to be as detailed in moving forward. Also, parts—but not all—of the plans are related to funding.

Certainly, there is a need for annual monitoring. Because of the nature of the plans, we need a full, far-reaching review after five years, halfway through that 10-year cycle. Another thing that we need to keep an eye on too of course is that the framework and the current structure isn't conclusive; it isn't complete. There are other things, hopefully, that will change over the next two or so years—the education Bill and some of the other things that we referred to. The WESPs will need to reflect and respond to that too. So, we certainly need a monitoring and review system that is fulsome.

Thank you. Hefin, do you have a question?

Do the WESPs make sufficient links with the other strategic educational policies, for example the revised school improvement framework or the new Curriculum for Wales?

Thank you. Can I ask for succinct answers here? If I could start with Dyfan.

No, not adequately; there is space to strengthen the links. When it comes to some of the things that we've already discussed, such as the curriculum, there is room for improvement and strengthening. There are good connections with some elements. The 10-year teacher training plan that we've already mentioned—there is some overlap there. And in the WESP guidance, there is better link-up with the 'Cymraeg 2050' targets than previously existed. So, that has improved, but certainly, there is room for further improvement to links with other key areas—the curriculum is a good example of that.

Would anybody else like to add anything on that? Toni.

I agree with Dyfan's comments. I think the failure to get the linkage with the curriculum is a fundamental flaw. But I also think we need to secure those links with the non-statutory sector, particularly the pre-school and post-school sectors. One of the great failings of the current system is that even for those going to Welsh-medium education, there is a lack of continuity from the school sector to the post-16 sector in further education, and, to a lesser extent, in the higher education sector. So, you need that co-ordination beyond what's a statutory requirement.

Thank you. Heini, or Elin.

I know that a number of Welsh-medium schools have been pioneer schools in terms of developing the new curriculum, but that doesn't involve the WESP as it is at the moment. There is no role in terms of that linkage. The only other thing that I would say is that the Government needs to make sure that, in the new curriculum, there is the correct information about the culture and history of Wales, what Wales is. That isn't there at the moment, and the education Minister needs to give attention to that issue. If that is in the curriculum, then we can link that up with the WESPs.

I would agree with the suggestions made by others this morning, but I do also think that we need to consider the importance of additional learning needs. Whilst there is a specific outcome in the WESP, we must also respect the fact that there is a separate Bill that ensures that that provision is in place. The Bill does clearly note the need for bilingual provision in that sector.

If you go through the WESPs as they are, you will see the weakness of those plans in outcome 6. They are nowhere near ensuring that the Bill is satisfied. So, we need to look at that as a matter of urgency, and we have asked the Minister specifically to hold a consultation to look at the differences between provision across counties in order to support our families. Lack of provision shouldn't be an issue any longer. Our schools respond to all needs within those schools. That should be no barrier for children accessing Welsh-medium education. So, as a matter of urgency, we need to look at that Bill along with outcome 6 of the WESP.

I have a signed copy of Elin Jones's history book, for the record.

Well done. A big tick for Hefin.

It's great.

It is. A plug for the excellent book written by Elin Jones, which has been provided to every school in Wales as well, through the co-operation agreement.

May I turn now to questions from Sioned Williams, please?

Thank you very much. Chair, I should have declared at the beginning an interest in that I am a member of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

I share that same interest, so I will add that to the record too.

Thank you. I would like to hear your views specifically on how the WESPs contribute or don't contribute adequately to the development of Welsh-medium provision within the English-medium sector. Is it clear in the plans? You, Elin, spoke earlier about how Welsh-medium provision should be heart of the education offer in every local authority. You in your written evidence, Heini, gave us an example, and I'd like it if you could expand a little bit on that example, in terms of how in Neath Port Talbot there have been developments that run contrary to the WESP in that authority. Heini, do you want to start?

Developments in English-medium schools can have a great impact on the development of Welsh-medium schools. If an English-medium school is established, then that will have an impact on the Welsh-medium provision in that area. There is a recent example—Elin might mention Bridgend—where there was a lack of consultation in establishing an English-medium school, and that obviously had an impact on Welsh-medium education. There was a lack of consultation on the impact of that on the Welsh language. The same thing happened, or it is happening, in Neath Port Talbot as we speak: a proposal to establish a large English-medium primary school in Pontardawe with 700 children. That would lead to the closure of three or four English-medium primary schools. But, in the same area, we have Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Trebannws, Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pontardawe, which generally speaking are in buildings of poor quality. Having a large new English-medium school at the bottom of the valley, with a swimming pool and so on and so forth, is bound to attract children to it. And that in turn would be detrimental to Welsh-medium education.

There is a judicial review—and Elin can tell you more about that in a moment—where we expect that Neath Port Talbot in not having consulted on the impact of those proposals on the Welsh language in full will be criticised by the tribunal. But the development of English-medium schools aren't currently included within the WESPs as such. There is no mention of the impact of building an English-medium school on the growth of Welsh-medium education in those areas. It's a question then as to whether education in Wales can develop, whether English-medium schools can be developed without any barriers, without consideration being given to the Welsh language. And one could make a strong argument that the WESPs should require local authorities to give consideration to the linguistic impact of any new school that they open.

Thank you. I'm sorry, we are in the last 15 minutes. Is there anything that Elin would like to add?

Perhaps I'll add a few other examples. These are clearly things that we have to be very aware of because there are very often developments with regard to English-medium provision in areas that happen without us as an organisation knowing about them. Because there is so much work to be done in ensuring growth in Welsh-medium education, we sometimes don't realise that there are impacts in terms of some schemes within English-medium provision and that they might have a detrimental impact on the Welsh language. We have a mechanism within the school organisation code when consulting on any change, and our analysis of that—and that is in the hands of a judicial review—is that it should be considering the impact on the Welsh language when considering any new developments.

What has happened, very interestingly, is that we have challenged decisions such as this one and we've responded to consultations in a number of counties. In Monmouthshire it happened with increasing the numbers in the Caldicot area. And when we challenged that particular case, Monmouthshire council realised the mistake straight away and they spoke to us: 'Well, how do we mitigate the impact of this?' But there are other counties that are very loath to declare that they have done anything wrong. In Bridgend, for example, recently, we challenged the increase of the number in the Kenfig Hill area, where there were 150 additional places, and the impact that that would have on local schools, particularly Ysgol y Ferch o'r Sgêr, but also Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd, too, because we have to consider that the primary numbers will feed into the secondary sector. And Heini has talked specifically about Neath Port Talbot, where we're talking about the linguistic nature of an area and the impact of not looking at this issue in great enough detail at the consultation stage before deciding on that application.

So, in terms of measuring the impact on the language, as I said earlier, the Welsh language needs to be at the heart of the wider education plans of authorities and counties. They have to consider Welsh-medium education alongside English-medium education. That's why we've suggested in our response to this inquiry and in our evidence that we now need to move towards only opening Welsh-medium education, and if there's a proposal to open or extend any English-medium provision, then you need to demonstrate the impact—why English-medium rather than Welsh-medium? If we are to reach the Welsh Government's target, if we want to meet this target for our pupils, then we need to do something revolutionary to change and to move swiftly.

Thank you very much. Toni.

In our view, every school should be a Welsh-medium school by 2050, and what we need to do is to plan to ensure that. We shouldn't be opening new English-medium schools. Every new school should either be a Welsh-medium school or a bilingual school. And related to that, we need this plan of moving schools along the continuum. The Welsh language belongs to every school in Wales and to every pupil in Wales. It should be visible and audible in all aspects of education in Wales. And to tell the truth, I believe that using the term 'English-medium' can be damaging—it gives the impression that there's a 'them' and 'us'. Every school should be part of this system so that we move along the continuum for the benefit of pupils in Wales so that they leave school completely fluent in both Welsh and English.

And Dyfan.

Thank you. Just one very brief point: in our view, we need co-ordinated funding arrangements, that is, to ensure that the Welsh Government funding facilitates its policies. And what that means is that the capital funding system should support the WESPs. The ultimate destination in that regard is that there should be no new developments without them aligning with the local WESP. Legislation might be needed to ensure that that happens, but that is what does need to happen to ensure that the funding and the policy are co-ordinated.

Thank you. Sioned.

I just briefly wanted to ask—. We've touched on the continuum and the categorisation, so could I ask your view on how local authorities reflect that process of moving schools along the language continuum within the WESPs? Do you have specific concerns about the new categories in this regard? And I think you've all been in agreement on the need for the guidance to be statutory and that you believe that that would improve the situation. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Could we turn to Elin?

I genuinely believe that we need to realise that there has to be intensive support for any kind of change of category, but it has to happen. We have to bring forward a supportive, intensive and comprehensive mechanism to support schools and counties to go through this process. I'm a governor too and I know the work that a governing body has to do. But I also realise, as Heini has already mentioned, in terms of the school stock, for example, in many counties, there are no spare buildings, there is no space to construct, there is no funding to construct new buildings. So, we then have to look at the system of changing the medium of schools and that's going to be easier in some areas than others. But what isn't in place at the moment is a system to support that change.

Thank you very much. Does anybody else have anything to add briefly to that, because we have one more question we need to ask?

I'm concerned about the categories at the highest level. In the old categories, you had category 1, which was 100 per cent Welsh-medium; category 2A would teach about 80 per cent of subjects through the medium of Welsh to all pupils. In the new categories, you now have 3P, I think—that's the Welsh-medium schools category—where 100 per cent of subjects, more or less, are taught to all pupils. Under that, you have a category teaching 80 per cent of all subjects, but to who? Not to all pupils. So, one great concern there, for example, is Gwynedd. They are probably going to go after the lower category than the 3P. That will mean that you will have no definition as to how many pupils will be taught 80 per cent of subjects through the medium of Welsh. So, in the first instance, I would look at the categories once again and change them to reflect the desire to promote Welsh-medium education across the sector.

Thank you. I see that Toni wants to come in too. Very briefly, if you would.

Just very briefly to affirm what Heini has just said. The situation in Gwynedd is a step back in terms of education in Gwynedd, and the categories as they are support that retrograde step, rather than supporting further development.

Thank you. I'm going to turn now to a final question from Carolyn, please.

Diolch. This is about engagement. So, just to gauge the level of engagement between local authorities and stakeholders during the development of the WESPs, and how they could be improved in future. And then also, you mentioned earlier about the importance of education fora in developing things going forward, so the extent local authorities have utilised Welsh-medium education fora in your view. And where they've been established, the perceived impact of the fora on individual WESPs.

That's a broad-ranging question. We have four minutes. So, if I could ask for brief comments. There is an opportunity to provide further written evidence, if you would be content to do so too, but I will give everyone a minute. If I could start with Elin.

Thank you. I don't want to repeat what I've already said, but, generally speaking, it varies across Wales in terms of how the fora have been drawn together, who's contributed to them and how they've contributed. I think that needs to be standardised. We have good practice across Wales; I could share that good practice with you, but, personally, I would share good practice in Blaenau Gwent. Unfortunately, Alun has left, but Blaenau Gwent have worked excellently; Newport too. We have to realise that if we are stakeholders in Welsh-medium education, then we have to be part of the conversation. So, if we haven't been part of the conversation to date, then we need to get involved, and I think that's a responsibility on individuals within different organisations and key stakeholders to be part of that conversation, to be involved in these fora as we move forward.

Thank you. Dyfan.

Thank you. I echo what Elin has had—I think that local-level interaction and engagement is vital, not just in terms of developing the plans, but as they are implemented and as we move forward too, and I would expect that the evidence and that local input is a contribution towards the monitoring of the plans going forward. That's vitally important.

The other thing that I would say too, thinking more strategically, perhaps, is that in developing the plans we were a consultee, we responded to every one of the 22 plans, but, again, if there is to be a far-reaching review in five years, I think we need a more interactive process, because it was quite a technical process, where there was a consultation and then there were responses and then the plans are implemented. So, that local-level contact is vital, and I think, in reviewing the WESPs in moving forward, I think we need a more interactive process.

Thank you. Heini.

I'm concerned about the influence of directors of education or leaders of education in various counties on the whole process. If they're supportive of the Welsh language, then the plans are implemented well; if they are not as supportive—and we in Swansea have had some great examples of those who aren't as supportive—then the process can be sluggish and very difficult indeed. So, how do we link the WESPs and make them a more central part of the whole education policies of a county? That is necessary, so the whims of individual officers don't have such a great influence.

Thank you. And finally, Toni.

I agree 100 per cent with the idea of fora. These fora should be used to hold the authorities to account. If the WESPS aren't adequately ambitious, if they don't show that clear connection with the targets that are in 'Cymraeg 2050', then we will be discussing things at too low a level. So, the fora need to look at not just the local WESP, but to what extent those plans are contributing positively towards that ambitious aim that the Welsh Government has in 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Thank you very much. May I thank all four of you for giving evidence today? As I said about the written evidence, I think it's been a very beneficial and interesting session. We could have done with another hour to ask other questions. But if we do have additional questions that we haven't reached, or questions arising from your evidence, would you be happy for us to write to you for that further response?

Of course.

Thank you. That's a warning that there might be another letter on its way to you. But thank you very much for your work in this very important area.

Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you.

Members of the committee, if we can move on please to item 4, where there are a number of papers to note. I'm just going to mention the item number. If anybody wants to raise any issues, please stop me, but is everyone content to note item 4.1? Item 4.2? Item 4.3? Item 4.4? Carolyn, did you want to raise any issues on this particular item, item 4.4?

I'm just trying to go back to those—

Around The National—

Yes. It's about plurality, really, of information, so making sure that—. It's a concern for me that we're having published information regarding Wales in Wales for Wales, as well as other areas, that plurality and access to information for everybody written in print and online as well. So, it's a concern to receive this.

Diolch. I think we would all echo the importance, obviously, in our correspondence of the plurality element. I would hope, through our short inquiry, as well, in terms of the impact of increased costs, it's something that we'll need to look at in greater detail. But thank you for noting that; I think it's certainly one for us to look at in greater detail as a committee, if everyone's in agreement.

Thank you very much for that, Carolyn. We turn back to item 4.5, which is related; 4.6, 4.7, 4.8. I just wanted to note personally, clearly, the Deputy Minister is clear about what our role is as a committee with regard to the cultural strategy. We would hope, through all of our evidence and the previous evidence gathered by the previous committee, that there might be a more prominent role for past committee inquiries in terms of the cultural strategy. What I would propose is that we could write back to say that we are content to submit evidence and to have a more proactive role, if there was a desire to do that, or to be seen as potential stakeholders, rather than just a scrutiny role. Would everyone be content with that? Excellent. Thank you.

Item 4.9—we had an update in the Senedd yesterday from the Minister with regard to Qatar. Is everybody content to note that paper? And then item 4.10, another letter to note. Are there any further comments on the papers, please? No.

May I propose then, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting? Are Members content to agree this motion? Yes. In which case we'll now continue in private. Thank you very much.