Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Therefore, I would ask Members if you're content that, under Standing Order 17.42, we resolve to exclude the public from the next item, item 4, and items 7 and 8 of the meeting today? Are you content with that? I see that Members are content, and therefore we will move into private session.

Good morning. Welcome back to this session of the committee this morning. We move straight into item 5, but, before we do so, I'd like to thank Alun Davies for chairing the committee this morning, and I'd also like to welcome Sioned Williams and Buffy Williams to the meeting. We are holding this meeting as a joint committee, or joint inquiry, with the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. This is an inquiry into the Welsh in education strategic plans, and this is an evidence session with Welsh-medium early years, post-16 and adult learner provision. So, I'll ask, in this session, the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Dafydd first.

Good morning. I'm Dafydd Trystan. I'm the registrar and senior academic manager of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.

Thank you, Dafydd. I'll ask Aled, on the screen, to introduce himself.

Good morning. Aled Jones-Griffith, principal of Coleg Menai and Coleg Meirion-Dwyfor, representing CollegesWales today.

Thank you, Aled. And Angharad.

Angharad Morgan, and I am policy manager with Mudiad Meithrin.

Thank you. It's great to have you all with us this morning. May I ask first of all, as we go straight into questions: have local authorities received the WESPs framework, and has there been a culture change as a result? Everybody doesn't have to answer every question, but if you want to respond, I'll see you on your screen, and you're welcome to raise your hand if you want to answer a question. And I don't see anyone. Dafydd, would you like to go first?

Well, it's a very good question Well, it's a very good question. How do you change culture within local authorities in general? Never mind the context of the WESPs, that's a challenge. It takes an all-encompassing strategy from Government, and to date there are signs of progress. I understand that the WESPs, in their new format, are far better planned and progressive than previous WESPs. I think the question for you and for us working in this area is: what happens when the WESP hits up against other priorities in a local authority when there are ambitious plans set out, perhaps by a Minister or a member of the cabinet, and then that the general framework, in ensuring that there are appropriate resources in place, that there is an appropriate workforce to staff these schools—is all of that in place? I think it's fair to say that the jury's out at the moment on that question. I haven't seen that change of culture within local authorities as of yet.

Okay. I think Alun Davies wanted to come in at this point, and then I'll go to Angharad. Alun.

Dafydd, you ask more interesting questions than we're asking. So, what is the answer to your own question? You say 'the jury's out'—fair enough. There's a reason why you've said that, clearly. What is the reason, and what do you think the jury's going to find when it returns?

If we look very specifically at WESPs, I think what we'll find is that there are local authorities that will make progress in the next period. I'm looking into some sort of crystal ball now, so don't hold me to this. But if you're asking me to look into that crystal ball, I think, in three to five years' time, the workforce challenges will become more prominent. If we really are talking about adding 5 per cent to 10 per cent to the numbers in Welsh-medium schools, you need the staff and teachers to do that, and, at the moment, the number of teachers being trained in Wales is flatlining, in terms of educating through the medium of Welsh. We need growth there, and, therefore, the jury is out. And what I would like to see is a whole-Government approach to tackling these issues, including the workforce and, in due time, progression from the nursery sector into schools, and I'm sure Angharad will have a comment on that, but also that continuity from schools to the post-16 sector, and that's the work we're doing with Aled and colleagues on that. So, yes.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you for that. We'll go to Angharad.

Thank you, Dafydd. I think one of the things that we need to emphasise is the need to co-ordinate the work and work jointly across the sectors. As we're looking at expanding the number of children who attend Welsh-medium education, you also have to consider how these children reach that education at the very beginning, and also how do we support those children and families to keep those children in the Welsh-medium education system throughout their education, through the GCSE system, A-levels and then to universities.

Dafydd has also mentioned the staffing challenges. If we don't keep those individuals in the Welsh-medium system until the end of their education career, the challenge of staffing the Welsh-medium sector is going to get bigger and bigger, because without the children who are in current Welsh-medium sector continuing to develop their skills in the Welsh language, as well as the professional skills and academic skills, and returning as part of the education and early years care workforce, then the challenges that we're facing in terms of increasing staff numbers in that sector also increase as those annual targets increase as well.

I think what we're seeing as an organisation, in terms of grass-roots co-operation, as Dafydd mentioned, is that there are differences in terms of what is happening at a grass-roots level, what is possible in some areas in terms of the geographical nature of schools currently, how families get to school, and there is a need for joint working across local authority departments and Welsh Government departments to ensure that access and all those considerations are considered as part of the WESPs and in the development of Welsh-medium education across Wales.

Thank you, Angharad. Aled.

I think the point that Angharad made is important in terms of how one looks at lifelong learning and looks at the age range that the WESP covers. It covers statutory education, and, as Dafydd mentioned, the post-16 contributes to that, and there is reference in some of the WEPSs towards what local authorities are looking at in school, but there isn't much reference in the WESPs, in our area anyway, as to the role and contribution of the FE sector in that. And as Angharad has said, I think we need to look at the linguistic journey from four to 18 rather than from four to 16. And apprenticeships become part of that too.

I also think that the challenge facing the primary, secondary, and post-16 sector is to get Welsh-medium staff to provide education, and, as Dafydd and Angharad mentioned there, we've been very fortunate as a sector to buy into the Cymraeg Gwaith programme that's been in place since 2017. So, the committee may need to consider whether that could be put on more robust foundations, or more permanent foundations for the longer term, so that post-16 Welsh-medium education could be planned as part of the WESPs in collaboration with the local consortia.

Thank you to you all for that. A number of subjects that you've touched upon are things that we'll be looking at in more detail in our questions. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning and thank you for joining us today. You've touched on this in your first response, but I wanted to ask specifically whether you believe that the current legislative and policy framework of the WESPs provides that effective model to deliver the Cymraeg 2050 targets.

Aled.

If I'm being entirely honest, Heledd, I don't think it does. The framework states that local authorities should consult with the FE sector, but there is no requirement to do so. And we have examples as CollegesWales where there are some local authorities that do communicate and consult very effectively on the WESPs, and there are examples where there is no consultation at all. So, I do think that we need to look at what the framework is and what the expectations are, so that there's a statute that says that all providers must be included, from early years to secondary, including post-16 and, indeed, universities, because if we look at the continuum in reaching a million Welsh speakers by 2050, then we have to consider all sectors in education. We work very closely with the coleg Cymraeg to ensure that there is FE and HE provision provided through the medium of Welsh in specific sectors, but that isn't captured in the WESPs because it only looks at the statutory age up to 16 and in schools post 16, rather than the whole post-16 provision.

Thank you. I'll bring Dafydd in, and then Angharad.

Aled's answer and the question is very relevant to the Government's intention to introduce a Welsh language Act in the next few years. It is quite clear—and to echo what Aled was saying there—that there is a need for a lifelong plan for education in order to move forward, and that that is on a statutory basis. Therefore, I would hope that that is part of the Government's planning in moving towards a Welsh language Act, as well as concentrating very clearly on those challenges in terms of the workforce.

Thank you, Dafydd. Angharad.

Thank you. To echo what's already been said, one of the challenges we have, although there is now a target in the new WESPs that refers specifically to early years, is the fact that there is a perception that there is a difference between the pre-school care and education sectors. And the point that we're making as an organisation, and as Cwlwm in general, is the fact that those children don't differentiate between the care and the education that they receive before they get into the statutory education system. And as there is no specific plan in place—. We have the Set Up and Succeed scheme, which is funded through us through the Welsh Government, which aims to increase the number of cylchoedd meithrin over the next few years, and the challenge is to ensure that local authorities see that as part of developing the WESPs and that they feed that in, so that it's not just seen as something that's part of the care sector, rather than being the early years education that's part of the sector too.

Heledd.

If I could ask, therefore, Angharad, could you further expand on that? What would you like to see, specifically, the Government doing to ensure that? Clearly, in terms of the WESPs currently, it varies from authority to authority.

I think, Heledd, that one of the points that needs to be made is that you need to consider the early years specifically and the care that they receive before entering education. At the moment, formal education begins at three years of age. So, the whole system before that age is captured in the care sector, which is overseen by CIW, not by Estyn. What I would like to see is that all of that should come together, and that the availability of care through the medium of Welsh is considered as part of the WESP planning, with particular consideration then given to the early years in moving forward to the Welsh education Bill too. As Aled mentioned earlier, this is all one continuum in terms of the linguistic development of the child.

Also, families don't differentiate between education and care in the early years. The difference on paper at the moment between the two kinds of provision doesn't truly exist for families.

Thank you, Angharad, for expanding on that. May I go on to another question to the three of you, please—just an opportunity for you to talk to us about what additional measures, if any, you think could be used to improve or amend the current framework, whether they be legislative or policy measures, to ensure that the ambitions and targets of Cymraeg 2050 are delivered locally?

Well, we've already referred to lifelong education planning, and, therefore, the WESPs need to deal with the pre-statutory and post-statutory sectors, and to bring those together. As Aled has mentioned, it needs to happen in every local authority. There is a notable example in Newport, 'of all places', where they have been planning very effectively with the local tertiary college and with local schools. So, it can be done, but it's not being done everywhere, and that needs to be considered in the legislative context.

The one interesting thing that I'll throw out there for a second, in terms of whether it's policy or whether it's legislation, is how you can tackle the workforce challenges. We know that there are challenges in the nursery sector, in colleges, and particularly in schools. So, does that require legislative intervention, or is it a matter of developing more strategic policy in order to achieve objectives in that area?

I think Alun wants to come in at this point.

I'm sorry to have to say this, Dafydd, but you've said something interesting.

For once, is it?

You said—this was before your last sentence, and correct me if I'm wrong—you gave the example of Newport as somewhere where it could be done, and that it doesn't exist everywhere. You then said, in the contexts of policy or legislation—. That suggests to me that you want to see more legislation to ensure that local authorities operate in a way that's more general across the country. So, you're talking, in a way, about nationalising education.

Na. Hynny yw—

Well, the provision of education.

I'm not here to talk on behalf of the Welsh Government, of course, Alun.

No, I'm not suggesting that you are. But I have an interest in what you think in saying that.

What I think is—. My understanding of the Welsh Government's intention is that it's their intention to set a more robust framework for Welsh-medium education nationally. I welcome that. We are doing it in terms of the curriculum. There are a number of ways that we legislate. We've been doing it on sex and relationship education. Of course, there are national Acts. I welcome that, and I think, for the reasons we've noted, there is a need for that for the Welsh language.

So, you want to see more robust legislation to ensure that local authorities have less of an opportunity, really, to move in a different direction, but you say that you want them to follow the policy of Welsh Government and for that to be a requirement.

To follow the framework of the policy, yes.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Aled wants to come in on this too.

In response to your question, Heledd, the WESPs framework is standardised and it looks at a number of aspects, but perhaps the wording of the framework needs to be looked at. In terms of consultation on the plan, there is an expectation that you consult for no less than eight weeks. Now, if that becomes a requirement, that changes things. An expectation and a requirement are two different things. There is an expectation that they consult with all FE providers in the area, but it's not a requirement. So, I think there's an opportunity to strengthen the law there.

Heledd, you also asked what else would be possible in terms of ensuring that the progress and continuum in the sector continues. Perhaps it would be worth the committee considering for the future the availability of qualifications through the medium of Welsh. I think that is certainly the case for post-16 education, given the number of awarding bodies working in Wales who don't offer Welsh-medium qualifications—they can be taught and studied through the medium of Welsh, but the examinations aren't available in Welsh. So, I think that's certainly something that needs to be looked at in the longer term to ensure that young people, perhaps, who follow all of their statutory education through the medium of Welsh can continue to do so in the post-statutory sector.

Just to reinforce the point I made earlier—and Dafydd has also echoed this point—I think the WESPs need to look at lifelong education. I know that the education Minister has lifelong learning as a priority, and I think this is now an opportunity to ensure that local authorities and organisations work together to strive towards a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

Thank you, Aled. Angharad.

I think, also, that you need to consider strengthening the WESPs as they stand, and that the education and care workforce don't just look at that statutory education and post-statutory education. There are a number of professional workers who are involved with those children and young people during that whole period, and one of the greatest challenges in terms of Welsh-medium provision for children and families who have additional learning needs, or any other need, is to ensure that there is that collaboration across education, early years and health as well, because a number of the specialist professionals who support schools, colleges and universities, or whatever they are, to help those children and families throughout their educational journey, aren't employed by the education sector; they're employed by the health boards, and there is a recruitment challenge there as well. We need to highlight that as one of the reasons, perhaps, why families with children who have additional learning needs don't choose Welsh-medium education, because the specialist provision isn't necessarily available in their local area and provided by Welsh-medium staff and in Welsh-medium settings—just because that provision doesn't exist more generally.

Thank you, Angharad. Heledd, are you happy for us to move on? Okay, great. We'll move on to Sioned.

Thank you, Chair. I wanted to return to that point that we've already touched upon in terms of accountability arrangements. It relates, perhaps, to putting things on a statutory basis, but also to the current system. How should Welsh Government ensure accountability? How can they support organisations in securing that? I don't know if you have any view on that.

Dafydd.

On the one hand, there is a framework today, which means that the plans are submitted to the Government and the Government decides whether they're satisfactory or not. I do think that there's a challenge in that sort of thing, because a point arises where local government perhaps changes things a little, and then the Government has to decide whether to accept them or reject them, and that is nearly a nuclear option. So, finding a way of ensuring that they're within this framework is quite important, I would suggest, and it follows a number of the comments that we've already been discussing. I don't think we've reached that point yet. It's worth remembering, of course, we've had quite a significant reform of the WESPs recently, and they're only now being implemented, and so there is an element where we're waiting to see. Despite the fact that we are impatient at times, we are waiting to see how that is going to work out. But there is an opportunity there.

In terms of, perhaps, the variation, and something that can solve that variation, and maybe the lack of ambition, and the successes in some areas—it's that uneven landscape, isn't it?

Yes, there are two things, aren't there? Firstly, the framework needs to be robust and I think that it would be an opportunity to put that on a statutory basis.

The second element; we've touched on a number of things here in terms of post-statutory education that should be included everywhere, and they're not at the moment.

And the third is what is the pattern in terms of reporting publicly and transparently on progress against these targets. As we know, in many policy areas what we're likely to see is that some local authorities will make significant progress and others won't. And so, how apparent will that be to you, to us, and to the public?

Thank you, Dafydd. Does anyone else want to come in on this? No.

One other question then, more general in a way, regarding the nature of the WESPs. We've seen them in their new form, and as you've mentioned Dafydd, a number have welcomed the fact that there's been some sort of step change, or that it's in the process of happening. The Minister mentioned that the plans to grow Welsh-medium education in the next 10 years are as ambitious as they could be. Do you agree with that?

It's a very good question, Sioned, if I may say so. On one level, I do agree, because the kind of shift anticipated in the WESPs is significant. With the exception of our colleagues in the Basque Country, and perhaps the Catalans and the Israelis, there are few nations in the history of the world who have managed to make that change with a language that's relatively low in terms of its usage.

The only element I would say that is at present in need of serious consideration is the workforce planning that runs along with the WESPs. The workforce plan that has been published by the Welsh Government, the 10-year workforce plan, looks at a phased approach. But the WESPs and the million Welsh speakers plan calls for a shift from something like 250 teachers being trained per year to 600 being trained. So, I am not certain that a phased approach will take us from 250, as it has been for five years and more, to 600. With the WESPs and all of the planning, that is the area, if you like, where there is a specific challenge.

Thank you. Did somebody else want to come in? Angharad.

I think one of the things with regard to the targets is that we would all like to see higher targets being set. One of the challenges is to set targets that are ambitious but also realistic in this area. As Dafydd has mentioned, one of the challenges alongside that is specific targets for staffing and recruiting the workforce and workforce retention across the sectors. You also need to consider the capacity to develop, the capacity of the schools that we have already, and the post- and pre-statutory education provision as well, and ensuring that there is a clear education route for parents that goes from the very first day, in terms of the care of that child, to the time that that child will finish his or her education, whether they're 16 or 18 or at the end of university. The parents need to have confidence that when they choose Welsh-medium care or education, it's possible for that child to receive the care and education of the best possible standard in Welsh at a local level until the end of their time in the education sector.

Sioned—okay?

Okay, thanks.

Great. We'll move on to Hefin David.

Thank you. Is the 10-year cycle appropriate in terms of ensuring that local authorities are appropriately monitored?

Who'd like to take that question first? I see a number of smiles. Aled?

I'm sure Aled can answer that first.

It's an interesting question. Any plan, if it's to have vision, should be a 10-year plan, but how do you monitor that and ensure that it's still relevant in five years or even in a year? It also comes back to issues that we've already discussed: one thing that is a challenge for us, or a challenge for the sector, as part of the WESPs, is that we're not just post-16 education providers—we contribute significantly to the 14-to-16 courses through the local consortia. And I don't think that there's been adequate consultation with us on that point in terms of the quality of the provision and the linguistic nature of the provision. There are subject experts providing this education. As Angharad said earlier, we need to ensure that the young people who attend those courses at 14 to 16, or remain in school have quality education—be they in school or in college—taught by specialists in their subjects. Because if these are what have a real impact on the career path of pupils in years 11, 12 and 13 and beyond, it's important that we also invest in that sector.

I think the 10-year plan is excellent, but it's no good unless it's monitored properly either annually or at least regularly, because having a 10-year plan, and reviewing it every 10 years, is not good for anyone because it's not going to make any progress. So, perhaps it's too ambitious. I agree with what Angharad said: you need to set ambitious targets, but those targets have to be achievable. I would suggest that the WESPs perhaps should be five-year plans, reviewed annually by local authorities, but also with the partners that they should consult with, not those partners that they could consult with.

In terms of responding to an earlier question—are the monitoring processes strict enough—I think only the committee can answer that question as it's the responsibility of Government. But I think a very easy way of ensuring that they have gone through the statutory stages would be to ask those whom they are expected to consult with to sign them off—so, that there would be a signature from the head of a further education institution on any WESP, stating that they had been fully consulted on.

Thank you, Aled. I'll come to Dafydd next and then to Angharad.

Just briefly, there's no problem with a 10-year plan. That is, it makes sense to have a plan that looks into the future, because it takes time to build a school; it takes time to attract children to a school. The trick is at what point is it monitored, and clearly and robustly monitored. To me, it feels as if it should be happening, certainly, every three years. There is time for things to happen, but the trick is to make sure that the monitoring is sensible. Having a plan for 10 years is not intrinsically a problem, I don't think.

Thank you, Dafydd. Angharad, did you want to come in too?

Thank you. I agree—I don't think that the length of the 10-year plan is the issue, to be honest, in terms of being able to plan and forward planning. Ten years is much better than the old system of reviewing and rewriting plans on a three-year cycle. But three years didn't provide enough time to monitor and implement and see what the difference was before having to start the process from the beginning all over again. There was no looking forward to that medium-term future because the three-year cycle was too short.

Again, I agree with Dafydd that it's the need to consider how we monitor these developments against the targets over the 10 years that is important: that having the targets over 10 years gives local authorities and partnerships an opportunity to plan, to develop and increase numbers over that term, but there is a need to show and monitor the progress often against those targets and look and sit down and review whether that progress has been made against the targets and see if there is a need to change or include other interventions to reach those targets over a period of time.

So, five-yearly monitoring is fine.

I would say three to five years, in order to look at the progress made and what they need to do to continue to achieve the targets set, or whether the target needs to be extended because they're already close to it.

I think Aled wanted to come in on that point, too.

If I could come back, I think that we need to monitor annually. As education institutions, we have annual evaluations, and if we're talking about education, I think annual monitoring is important, because if I was waiting for three years to monitor the quality of my college, I would have problems. If I hadn't identified the problem in the first year and it's left for three, I would say that the problem will have got much worse. So, I would suggest that we need annual monitoring. I would agree with what Dafydd and Angharad said: the plan could be for five or 10 years, but the monitoring has to be annual.

Alun wants to come in at this point.

In your answers, you've all spoken about monitoring, and I'd like to know who is monitoring and what are they monitoring.

Dafydd.

The Welsh Government, the targets set in the WESPs, and then publishing the progress according to local authority. Thinking of bins and recycling, for example, we see every year, or every few years, progress made in local authorities on recycling. I'd be very pleased to see their progress, or not, as appropriate, on the WESPs.

Did anyone else have anything to add?

I want everyone to answer this question, because they've said that there is monitoring, and I want to know who they're talking about.

Angharad wants to come in.

There is monitoring happening. There are meetings taking place, there are fora, there are local WESP committees, there are Welsh in education fora in some local authorities, which monitor progress on specific points. But I agree with Dafydd that what we need to do is to have some system that requires local authorities to draw up a regular formal report to outline in simple terms to the public and to partners where exactly they're at, drawing all of that work that happens behind the scenes together and making it public.

Aled. I don't know if Aled wanted to come in. No. Okay.

I would like Aled to answer the question. He said that there is a need for monitoring, so who is doing that monitoring and what are they monitoring?

I think, Alun, that's a question perhaps where it's unfair for us to say that the local authorities should be monitoring; it's the local authority's WESP, so should the local authority be monitoring it? But, if I'm buying into it, I'd be more than willing to contribute to the monitoring, if it was a WESP for an authority including its partnerships. As Angharad said, there is a WESP steering group that includes, in some areas, members of further education organisations in Wales; in other areas, they don't include members from those further education organisations. So, I would suggest that one of the monitoring groups is the WESP monitoring group, as Angharad said, including multiple agencies. So, monitored internally by the authority and any partners who are part of the WESP monitoring group. At the end of the day, if the Welsh Government is asking for the documents, the likelihood is that the final responsibility is on the local authorities to monitor whether they're comfortable with the progress against the targets.

Estyn would probably have a role as well.

If you're looking at education and the quality of education, then it is down to Estyn, but it depends what you're monitoring in the WESP, because they don't just talk about quality, they talk about the range of provision available.

Back to you, Hefin. Hang on, Angharad wants to come in.

Schools draw up the pupil level annual school census report every year, and that gathers a great deal of information for those in statutory education. One of the things that should be considered is whether it would be possible to use the data gathering system in schools to measure the progress made by local authorities against the targets that they've set out in their WESPs.

Thank you for that, Angharad. I'm going to go back to Hefin. We've got 15 minutes left. We've got two Members who haven't come in at all, so if we can be as brief as possible before we get to the last two, please. Hefin.

Excuse my clunky Welsh. I'm doing my best.

No, you're doing very well, Hefin.

[Inaudible.] Are the 10-year WESPs making sufficient links with other strategic education policies, for example the revised school improvement framework or the new Curriculum for Wales?

Who would like to come in on this? Dafydd?

Sorry, Hefin. There's a problem here where I'm tending to say 'the jury is out' in response to all the questions. At the moment we don't know, because the new plans are new, and it's almost a strange time to be looking at them in that context. But if you're asking what should be happening, then they certainly should reference these various different strategies, because what I tend to see in the education system, because I'm a school governor too, is that there are all sorts of things happening here that are very exciting, and everyone puts a great deal of energy into the curriculum there, and then, elsewhere, there are people working on sustainable communities for learning, then other people are working on Welsh-medium education, and they never talk to each other. I may be overstating that slightly perhaps, but there is a cultural challenge to bring people together there, to ensure that people—. Because what we want is local authorities across Wales, the whole education department, to take ownership of the WESP, from the director of education down, and that's a challenge, I think, and something—[Interruption.] I don't think it's happening everywhere at the moment.

Okay. I can't see that anybody else wants to come in. Angharad.

I think that one of the things that needs to be emphasised is that there is a need for all the strategies to weave into it. One of the things that's a little bit odd is that we want to increase the number of children who go through the Welsh-medium education system to meet the targets and the requirements of 'Cymraeg 2050', but, in producing the guidance on categorisation of schools according to Welsh-medium provision, that was non-statutory guidance, which is a little bit confusing. Because what you need to ensure is that parents, and children as they get older, understand what will be the linguistic result for them in an easy and consistent manner across schools and across Wales in terms of what their ability will be and their proficiency will be in the Welsh language when they leave this sort of education provision. And, currently, the way that people refer to Welsh-medium education and bilingual education isn't very easy to understand for families unless they ask questions. There is a need to bring everybody around the table with a set of definitions that are used consistently, and then to ensure that every strategy and every curriculum development emphasises the need for everything to be considered in one place, rather than having many things and statutory guidance being created that are not being considered in the WESPs as a core part of the definitions.

Thank you, Angharad. I'm very sorry; we'll have to move on. We'll move on now to Tom Giffard.

Thank you, Chair. Perhaps I could start by mentioning English-medium education, and what's your assessment of the current framework, and how that develops a Welsh learner and skills in Welsh in the English-medium sector, and what can local authorities do to improve that.

I'm pleased that you've asked that question, because there is a very significant challenge in the English-medium sector. People do say that, of the million speakers, hundreds of thousands of them will come from English-medium schools, because we're going to transform our education system, and people will come from the English-medium sector being fluent Welsh speakers. Well, we have a distance to travel in that regard. It's going to be difficult. I do think it means that we have to think very carefully about teacher training for the English-medium sector. Because, if you asked me to introduce Serbo-Croat to children in a comprehensive, I couldn't do it, because I'm not a speaker of the language. But, at the moment, there's this assumption that we can ask teachers, most of whom don't speak Welsh, to introduce the Welsh language to children in English-medium schools and then, all of a sudden, you're going to have a number of fluent Welsh speakers coming from those schools. We need to raise the level of skills amongst the workforce in the English-medium schools if we're to succeed. Because it's not just in—. My mother taught Welsh in an English-medium school, and they had some success, but, if people are to be confident in speaking Welsh, then it has to be something that's in the Welsh lessons, but also in the maths lessons, the biology lessons, the history lessons. It has to be part of the school's culture, and I think there is a major challenge in the workforce there to make progress.

But just to return to that, what's the solution to that? Because it's not just a matter of skills, it's confidence too. How can we give the staff confidence to work through the medium of Welsh?

There are two things, and if the chief executive of the National Centre for Learning Welsh was with us, as was expected before she moved on to other things, she would have talked about the Cymraeg Gwaith programme, the sabbatical programme. There are initiatives there, but they do need to be expanded.

We also need to consider whether we follow some of the examples of the Basque Country, where there is support for students who speak Spanish to improve their Basque language skills before starting teacher training. Although they're going to teach in an English-medium school, if they have confidence in their Welsh language skills, if they've developed them for three months, six months, or 12 months even, before starting initial teacher training, then there's an opportunity there to—. Because there's only so much you can do as the course is progressing, and that needs to be improved too, but, for some, there is an opportunity to say, 'Look, we are developing a bilingual education system, where everyone has an opportunity to develop Welsh language skills; we have the curriculum in place.' That's how I would like to see us develop.

Everybody wants to come in. Okay. I think Angharad raised her hand first. Angharad.

I think one of the challenges that we need to address in terms of the English-medium sector is the fact that we need to upskill the staff if, as the curriculum notes, we want to increase the usage of Welsh and introduce it in a natural way in the curriculum from the early years onwards. There is a need to ensure that every member of staff who works across the English-medium sector has the opportunity to develop those skills. There are a number of courses that exist or have been established over the last few years either by the centre or other agencies previously that can be of use, but perhaps there's a need to extend the sabbatical scheme so that some of the teachers in that sector can develop their skills and confidence to teach through the medium of Welsh.

Thank you. Aled.

Just to echo everything that's already been said, but perhaps the first step, rather than expecting everyone who can't speak Welsh to upsklll, is that they should certainly raise awareness of the Welsh language and its importance in education and in the Welsh economy and the opportunities provided by the language. Now, that can be shared with any pupil, be that pupil Welsh speaking or non-Welsh speaking. Raising the awareness of non-Welsh-speaking teachers of the importance of the language is an important first step until we can actually achieve that panacea of getting everyone teaching through the medium of Welsh.

Thank you, Aled.

Okay. A second question: part of the process of developing provision in the English-medium sector is that schools move along the language continuum, so they're going from English medium to bilingual, then bilingual to Welsh medium. Is that happening and what evidence do you have that local authorities are doing that in the WESPs, and, if not, what needs to change to ensure that that does happen?

It's a major policy question. If we had hours, I'm sure we could have a seminar on this—[Laughter.]

If we can get the answer as succinct as possible.

But the succinct answer is that it's happening at the moment in some areas where the Welsh language is a strong community language. It isn't happening broadly, although there are plans to do that in some other areas. But, in order to move along the continuum, the framework has to be right, and the accreditation framework of teacher training centres, for example, that the Government is currently looking at—. How much attention will be given to the Welsh language in the English-medium sector in the accreditation framework and in the work of the accreditation boards that will happen over the next year? So, there is an opportunity to have those conversations now.

By the way, if you want to give us any more information and detail in writing, we would appreciate that. You're welcome to write to us, because we know this is an extensive area. But, if there's something brief you want to say now, you're more than welcome to. No, you're happy to write. Great. Fantastic. We'll finally move on, finally, to Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Chair. Thank you all for joining us this morning. Could you tell us what engagement takes place between local authorities and stakeholders in the development of WESPs, and what role do stakeholders play in supporting the delivery of local authority targets, please?

I'll go to Angharad first, and then Aled. Okay. Angharad.

I think that one of the things that needs to be considered here is that this is different across the 22 local authorities. In some authorities, we as an organisation have sat around the table with that local authority. Some good examples are coming from the north, in counties in the north-west, where they've sat down from the planning stages, development stages, they've created education working groups looking at particular parts of the WESPs when implementing them to make the developments. There are examples in other counties, in other areas, where people do gather around the table, and they do discuss what the school development programmes are, and we can work backwards from that to see where we need to enhance the provision of cylchoedd meithrin and Welsh language childcare on the ground, to generate the demand for the Welsh-medium education. In other areas, those conversations happen after the authority has made its decisions, and things aren't as easy to link in then, because we don't always know what the developmental priorities that they have are, and we would have needed to put things in place earlier. So, it does vary. If you want more information on that, then perhaps you would need to ask that question to those working on the ground in the 22 local authorities to get an overview of it.

Thank you, Angharad. Aled, you wanted to come in.

Yes, 'varying' is the answer, I would say, Buffy. Some authorities work very closely with further education colleges. There's one college in south-west Wales whose Welsh-medium education plan is now part of the WESP, because they have been integral part of developing the WESP. I'm head of a college where we've got totally different experiences across three authorities. We're not even on one of the WESP monitoring committees in one authority and they haven't consulted with us at all; another authority has consulted with us extensively and we've provided a wording for the WESP; and another one has consulted us and ignored what we've said. So, the experiences across the sector vary within an organisation and within settings. But, certainly, I think there is room for improvement on the consultation, and not just consultation, but the joint working and the joint preparation, if we want to see a continuum from from statutory education to post-compulsory education.

Buffy, are you happy?

All good? Okay.

Yes, thank you. Thank you, very interesting. Could you tell us what is the impact of the 10-year education workforce plan on the pre- and post-compulsory school age sector and how can we ensure a sufficient flow of Welsh-medium staff to allow local authorities to deliver on their plans?

Okay. Dafydd.

If I may, Buffy, that's an excellent question. I think the Welsh Government has recently published its 10-year plan. I've suggested it's an incrementalist plan. It's a step-by-step plan. The Government has indicated its confidence that it will achieve the goals set out. I think I'm not so sure, to be honest with you, because of that gap from 250 teachers being trained every year to teach through the medium of Welsh to 600. That is a big, big chasm that needs to be forded, and I'm not sure we're in the position to do so yet. We'll be working, the coleg Cymraeg will be working hard with the Government and the EWC to make progress on these, but we may need to look at some of those more innovative solutions from other countries to see whether we can make even further progress on that 10-year plan.

Thank you.

Thank you for that. Angharad, if you could be as brief as possible. And I do apologise, I know that this is a massive subject, again. But, we will ask you to write to us with more detail. Angharad.

One of the things to note too is that we need to consider, if there's a plan to significantly increase the numbers available to work through the medium of Welsh in one area of the care sector, then there's a knock-on effect on other parts of the sector. So, if we attract people to work as teachers in schools, and that's seen as a relatively high-status position, that then removes people who may have trained to work in the childcare sector, or the post-statutory sector, where salaries and working conditions aren't necessarily at the same level.

Fantastic. I do apologise, but time has defeated us this morning, but that's been very interesting and useful indeed. We will certainly write to you to ask for more details on some of the issues that we hadn't touched upon, but we are very grateful to you for your evidence this morning. There will be a transcript sent to you so that you can check that, but, for now, thank you very much.

Members, we will now take a very short break until 11:55—we'll return at 11:55. Thank you.

Welcome back to this session of the committee. We move straight to item 6. We're continuing with our inquiry into Welsh in education strategic plans. In our sessions this morning and into this afternoon, we have evidence sessions with Welsh-medium early years, post-16 and adult learner provision. And this session is with local authorities now—I apologise, I am reading the wrong thing in the brief.

Sioned Williams has to leave the meeting shortly, so we'll move to her questions after introducing the witnesses. May I ask Darren Price to introduce himself for the record, please?

Yes, thank you, Chair. I'm Darren Price, Welsh language spokesperson for the Welsh Local Government Association.

Thank you, Darren. I'll ask Meinir to introduce herself next.

I'm Meinir Ebbsworth, on behalf of the WLGA, and chief education officer at Cyngor Sir Ceredigion.

Thank you for that, Meinir. I'll go immediately to Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon. I wanted to ask at the beginning if local authorities agree with the statement made by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language that plans to grow Welsh-medium education over the next 10 years are as ambitious as they can be? If you don't agree, could you explain why you don't agree with that?

What I'll ask you to do is to indicate if you want to come in at any point. We have no witnesses in the room, so we'll be looking at the screen. Who'd like to go first? Meinir.

Thank you very much. I think we can speak on behalf of individual local authorities in terms of our own, but as a group of WESPs, each of them will have their own context and their own ambition related to that context. So, naturally, I wouldn't expect to see the same ambition across the board, because that ambition will have to be set out within the growth in that particular authority. But one of the things that's been of benefit to us this year through this process is to see the Government setting those targets for us in a number of the outcomes. So, to a certain extent, when these plans are agreed and presented, then that relates to whether we are meeting or otherwise some of the targets set out for us by the Government in some of the outcomes.

Now, it's another matter as to whether, for the future, we would need a broader range of targets set by Government, because it's only in certain areas that those targets were set for this year. For example, Welsh-medium education for children at seven years of age and five years of age. So, can that be expanded to ensure greater ambition? That's something to be considered, I'm sure.

Darren, do you want to come in on this?

Certainly. I think Meinir has spoken about this. The context is different from council to council, and we would expect, perhaps, the targets to reflect that. To provide you with some sort of context, at the moment here in Carmarthenshire, we're providing Welsh-medium education to about 58 per cent of year 1 pupils. Compare that, say, to Newport, which is closer to about 5 per cent. There is a great difference in that context, and so that is an important factor as we're talking about these targets.

But, of course, the aim in general is to move every county along that journey. And as Meinir mentioned, I think councils in general are happy with the fact that the targets are realistic, and of course the fact that they are specific is of great help, because then you can track progress over the next 10 years. Thank you.

Thank you. Clearly, you note therefore that there is variation for different reasons. Clearly, some of them relate to geography, political will, perhaps, resources, and so forth. Therefore, in general, what do you feel are the areas of concern for you in terms of if there is a lack of ambition? Does it relate to the factors that I have outlined, or is there something else at work here, and is there a way of addressing that variation?

Meinir.

Again, I think that one of the things that could tackle any variety would be an alignment of certain things more strategically. For example, when local authorities were drawing up these plans, the school categorisation hadn't been published. Now, I think that has strengthened the relations between authorities and Government in actually approving these WESPs in defining the categories of schools. But, a step further in that regard would be the existence of a single language continuum across Wales, where that isn't simply a framework for the second-language sector, but an ongoing continuum across the board. That would certainly strengthen all aspects of planning, because then your professional learning offer would relate specifically to where on the continuum the development needs are.

Things such as this arm's-length company, Adnodd, that's to be established, that would then provide resources related very specifically to the continuum. This framework of continuum, in our view, is crucial as we move forward, and that will be the most important framework for us in securing progress. Categorisation is one step in the right direction, there's no doubt about that, but those categories need to be on a continuum as a foundation for them.

The second thing is that budgets and grants—grants for local authorities and grants that are provided to regions or other organisations—that those too should be part of this framework, where they are targeted either towards schools moving between categories, or along the continuum, so that our resources target growth.

Thank you.

Thank you. Darren, did you want to come in here?

Yes, certainly. I think it's important to note also, we've been talking about the local context, but also the linguistic geography of these counties is different. Their history is different, and I think there is good practice in some areas where they're promoting and marketing, perhaps, the advantages of the Welsh language, and the fact that this is a skill, that this does open doors culturally, in addition to the workplace, of course, on a professional level. I think that that is central to the future and the success of these plans, and I think that there is a role for Government at a national level to ensure that that message is promoted across the country. And then, that will feed the demand for Welsh-medium education across Wales—that is important, I think.

Secondly, Meinir mentioned categorisation; I agree that the new system is a good thing. Locally, as an example in Carmarthenshire, at the moment, we are working with councils across Wales to agree with schools on the current categories. But also, as part of that process, we're discussing with schools what the challenge category is. That is, where we would like to see them in 10 years' time, what's realistic in thinking of the pressure and of developing the workforce and the [Inaudible.] side, of course. Therefore, the potential is there, I think, to have discussions with the new categorisation system to think not just of where we are now, but on behalf of every school, what that challenge category is in 10 years. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I wanted to ask—you have given some initial responses to this question—but could you tell us whether you think that the current legislative framework in terms of the WESP provides the most effective model to deliver against the Cymraeg 2050 targets?

Meinir.

The framework is more robust than it has been, and we welcome those improvements to the framework, and we welcome the range of targets provided to us against some outcomes that secured that ambition. And I also think that it would be fair to note that we feel that there has been a strengthening in support for local authorities in drawing up the WESPs, and that's come from Government itself.

As a framework, in terms of the seven outcomes, then it's possible that some need more attention than others in certain local authorities. For example, for us locally, the outcomes relate to GCSE and A-level, and those are perhaps more important to us than some other aspects. But perhaps the framework does provide the same outcomes for everyone, and there perhaps is a realisation that providing weighting for some of these outcomes, or focusing more on some outcomes, is more necessary in certain parts of the country than others.

Diolch, Meinir. Darren.

Certainly. I think the important element with the new system is the fact that these plans happen over a period of 10 years, and that is a positive thing, I think. It provides more time and more opportunity for authorities to overcome some of the challenges. Of course, we were talking about staffing and budgeting—both those issues are central to this discussion, I think. That is something that feeds through in every element of the WESPs, and therefore that is a good thing.

The risk, perhaps, is that, because they are 10-year targets, there is slippage, so to speak, and in my view, it's important that that monitoring on a national level is consistent and regular. Because, clearly, the progress isn't going to be linear; that's how it is presented quite often, from council to council, but the reality is, as we know, it will be stepped, and there will be specific intervention in one year that will deliver significant progress, and in another year, it won't quite be the same. So, that continuous monitoring and regular monitoring is going to be vital, as the plan develops. Thank you.

Heledd.

If I could just ask you further in terms of the monitoring, do you think that there needs to be a stronger legislative foundation, if the monitoring demonstrates that the targets aren't being delivered, as the plan is implemented over 10 years?

Meinir wants to come in at this point. Could we unmute Meinir, please?

Thank you. I agree entirely with Councillor Price, the work on monitoring and accountability is very important indeed for councils, and some of the legislative steps that could be considered, perhaps, is that there should be an annual report submitted to every authority cabinet in terms of progress against the WESP. That's a matter of good practice at the moment, not a requirement, and that would be something that could enhance accountability on services and so on, but would certainly provide that public transparency of taking that report before cabinet. But that role, in terms of accountability, sits with our regulators, with Estyn. But one of the things that could be considered, within the remit of Estyn, is that the WESPs and the monitoring of the WESPs should happen annually, or every two years, through external regulators. Of course, they are included within local authoriity reports when Estyn do visit, but that, at the moment, is a five-to-six-year cycle. So, do we need something more regular and more refined from a regulator, be that Estyn or somebody else, and that's an issue for consideration, I think, in terms of transparency and accountability.

Diolch.

I think perhaps that Alun wanted to come in on this.

Yes. I'm following Heledd, really, because many witnesses that we've heard say that they don't have much confidence that local government can deliver on a national level and that there's a need for more legislation to make it a requirement that the Welsh Government monitors you. Because, at the end of the day, there is variation—and you will have discussed that and you'd expect it in a country like Wales—and it doesn't reflect the variation across Wales, but reflects the failure of councils in Wales.

Who wants to go first? Meinir.

Certainly, I think we need to return to the process of the WESPs. All the WESPs have now been adopted by Welsh Government, but, of course, the Government had an option not to approve those. So, our understanding is, through the latest letter that was received before the summer, that the Government has approved every local authority's WESP. So, that is one point in terms of the approval process first of all. But, after approval, I do think that we have that assurance within local authorities' democratic fora to hold services to account, but, as I said, perhaps the expectations need to be strengthened, because that happens in some areas through the language forum, whereas in others, it happens through the cabinet.

So, what are those consistent systems that could be adopted to hold people to account for the delivery of their WESP? Because, as Councillor Price said, they are 10-year plans. There is potential for any long-term plan to be the responsibility of someone else in the future, and we need to ensure that these milestones are annual, or every two years, and that they do provide reports that we are on track to deliver against these targets.

So, again, historically, we do have some very good examples of councils that have met the targets of their WESPs, and I think we need to learn from that good practice. But it also, in my view, relates to providing assurances that the Welsh language is central to our work, not just as local authorities, but in all areas. When we discuss anything related to education, we should be discussing the Welsh language as an integral part of that, and when we're talking about the curriculum, or additional learning needs, all of our major reforms in education—which are crucial at the moment—should have the Welsh language at their heart and not at the periphery, as is the case on occasion.

Just on that point, I think the point that Alun Davies raises is a valid one—what happens if we don't reach the target? But, of course, the context is that the political process has been central to this, and councils have agreed on the content, and have agreed that the targets, as I mentioned earlier, are reasonable and ones that can be achieved. I can speak on a personal level—there is a desire and the political will to go further than the target in Carmarthenshire. But the basic question is—and this is relevant to every policy area of Welsh Government—if we find that a council doesn't reach the target, what can the Welsh Government do in reality? We've heard over the last few years about a council perhaps failing with recycling targets for example. Okay, that is statutory, but what is the punishment? That is the reality of the situation, I think; in terms of the powers of the Government, there is a limit perhaps to what a Government can do if that comes to fruition. But I do think that there is a desire now, across local government in Wales, to address this agenda and to deliver, and to help Welsh Government to deliver the target of a million Welsh speakers.

Thanks, Darren. We'll go back to Heledd.

Thank you very much. I think that final point is an important one in terms of looking at what is already on a statutory basis. Do you think that there are measures that could be adopted to improve or amend the current framework—not just legislative or policy—that would be of benefit?

This expands on a point that I previously made on funding sources following very closely the various ambitions of the WESPs and their local auhtorities. We do have some fair few grant sources supporting the Welsh language, and many of those go to different places, some go directly to schools, some to authorities, and some to the regions. It would be, perhaps, an interesting piece of work to look at that flow of grant funding and how to ensure that—. Grant funding, along with goodwill, is the way of getting the WESPs implemented. If we are serious about moving schools through these categories, then there's a very real cost of moving a school from category 1 through into T2 and then to 2. They are costs that we are factoring into our budgets at the moment. They are real costs, they are revenue costs, and they are costs over a period of time. So, how do we align the resources that we have in terms of grants in one place, so that those grants can be a real driver to meet the targets of the WESPs?

I think that point is a very valid one. As we mentioned in the written evidence, there is a need to focus the financial support on those transitional schools in categories T2 and T3. It ties in with the point made by Alun Davies, that perhaps rewarding councils who are on that journey is a good way of doing so, rather than thinking of the penalty. Because the reality is, I don't think there's much in the Welsh Government's tool box regarding penalties, but, I think, looking at it from another perspective is the best way, and working and collaborating with councils, and rewarding councils that are ambitious in looking to move schools across the continuum.

Meinir, you wanted to come back in.

Certainly, it's not just revenue grants, but also capital grants, and how we align some of these ambitions with capital projects, sustainable school schemes, twenty-first century schools and so on and so forth. For example, that there is a decision in favour of building new schools when those new schools are following or are in a transition.

Thank you. Heledd, was there anything else you wanted to ask? No. You're happy. Thank you very much for that. We'll move on to Hefin David.

Thank you, Chair. How adequate is the monitoring framework? Is the system sufficiently robust to enable long-term scrutiny of local authorities' progress against targets? And what role is there for Estyn in monitoring delivery of provision?

Every council will have their own arrangements in terms of scrutiny of these WESPs. As, I think, we've raised previously, perhaps there could be some expectation in terms of the consistency of that scrutiny role. I think scrutiny reports or reports to cabinet could be considered. There is a role for regulators, as I mentioned, regarding Estyn, but I think there's also a role for groups of authorities, and groups of authorities that are linguistically similar, or similar in terms of their ambition, to come together and to jointly scrutinise. That is, that that challenge, in terms of peer challenge, could be part of the system, where we have a group of local authorities that will perhaps have a number of schools in T3, for example, or an aspiration to immerse 100 per cent of their pupils in the foundation phase in Welsh. And to what extent can we move to have that mechanism in place, where some of those authorities, which linguistically are more closely aligned, could jointly plan on certain aspects, but also jointly scrutinise in terms of holding ourselves to account too.

Just to add, and to provide an example, the point that Meinir has raised is important. The regional system of the consortia that we have currently doesn't necessarily deliver in terms of helping individual councils on the WESPs journey and the development of the Welsh language. Just to give you an example, in the south-west, in the Partneriaeth consortium, Carmarthenshire is working with Swansea Council and Pembrokeshire. Of course, the context, as I mentioned in the first question, in those three counties is very different. The challenges that we face are very different on this linguistic element. What we are finding is that informal discussions are happening with other councils, such as Ceredigion and Gwynedd and Arfor councils, which are more similar in a linguistic context. We have done that on a joint planning approach and a joint working approach, but perhaps there's scope to strengthen that element of joint working and joint scrutiny, in terms of how we move through the plans and how we reach our aim, or not. That is a point, I think, that we need to discuss with the Welsh Government, in terms of how we formalise that, to ensure that those councils that are similar on a linguistic level and those councils that have similar targets are scrutinised on a joint basis.

Thank you. To what extent do you belive that the statutory regime for reviewing and revising 10-year WESPs is appropriate, and should it be a requirement for local authorities to undertake a full review of their WESPs after five years?

We welcome 10-year planning because that is sensible in terms of language. Certainly, there are other things that do change. There are things related to planning, growth areas, that will change and develop over the next 10 years, as well as the results of one census, at least, if not two. So, I would agree entirely with the point about any long-term planning that isn't scrutinised regularly on an annual basis. Then, after five years, perhaps there should be an expectation that there should be—not reform, because there is potential in reform to lower expectations too—but that there should be potential after five years to increase the ambition. Because we have a minimum in place at the moment. In five years, perhaps we could see whether the conditions are in place where we could raise those aspirations, not lower them.

I completely agree. A number of councils have divided the decade into two, as we have done in Carmarthenshire. So, in thinking, for example, about year one, and the Welsh-medium provision, we are talking about moving four schools on the continuum in the first five years and six in the next period of the decade. So, a halfway review, of course, would be essential, I would say, to see where we are on that journey.

But I don't think that it's sufficient to say that there'll be a full review after five years. I think these discussions need to be consistent and regular with the Welsh Government. It's positive to see the collaboration between Welsh Government officials and local government in developing these plans. The hope, of course, is that the discussion and the monitoring and the scrutiny continue throughout the period. Thank you.

Thank you. Hefin, are you happy? Great. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Thank you, Chair. I wanted to mention the English-medium sector and the WESPs. What assessment have you made of the WESPs in the English-medium sector? Are they working, and if they aren't, how can we tackle that for the future?

I assume that that's a reference to how effective the WESPs would be in supporting English-medium schools to move along the continuum.

Yes. We are going to move on to the continuum. But I wanted to know about the experience of learning Welsh in English-medium schools and colleges now. Are the WESPs delivering?

What's the Welsh word for 'delivering'? Delifro, yes.

Are they doing what they are intended to do—the WESPs?

Certainly, I think we know that we have a great deal of evidence at a national level that sets out that great variety in the experience of pupils learning Welsh as a second language, or what we should be saying is 'learning Welsh', and learning Welsh alone, and forget about the second language element.

Again, we've referred in the past to a continuum. This continuum, an unbroken continuum, is crucial. There is a framework for schools that teach mainly through the medium of English being developed, but what that does is to put a boundary between English-medium and Welsh-medium schools, and it's not an unbroken continuum as a result. So, an unbroken continuum is essential.

Now, the efficacy of the offer will be dependent on the confidence of staff and how we ensure that we have the professional learning to support staff to provide the best experiences to pupils when they engage with the Welsh language. That is crucial. That relates to upskilling staff, staff who won't necessarily specialise in teaching Welsh, because we do know that there is a shortage of those staff. So, it's staff that have those skills; the broad-ranging resources that are required to support that—exciting materials that are digital and so on and so forth, and that they are very tightly interwoven with every step of the continuum. Because if we get that continuum in place, the resources can target exactly the places where they're needed.

There needs to be an investment in staffing, but also there need to be discussions as to how to lead on a Welsh ethos in schools. It doesn't just relate to the teachers teaching Welsh as a subject; it relates to governors and leadership teams that can develop a Welsh ethos within our schools too. So, there is a level that is beyond just having Welsh lessons; there is a need to do more in terms of developing a Welsh ethos in all of our schools, and, as I said, that feeling of being Welsh.

Thank you, Meinir. Darren, did you want to come in at this point?

Thank you. It's a really important point, isn't it? Unfortunately, as Meinir mentioned, there is variation in how effective—

Darren, just for a minute—. We can't hear you very well. Could you just move closer to the microphone?

No problem. Is that better?

Can you just—? We'll just check with the sound technician for a minute. Could you try speaking again?

Is that better?

No. There's something wrong. We'll just—. Do we need to take a break for this? Yes. We'll just take a short break of two minutes just to try and sort this out. We'll go into private session just for a minute or two.

Okay. We're back in public session. We just took a short break to sort the sound out. Darren, do you want to return to your answer to Tom Giffard?

Certainly. This is an important point. As Meinir mentioned, there is variation in how effective English-medium schools are in succeeding in creating bilingual speakers. That is a fact; we're all aware of that, and that has been something that has been part of the system for decades. From my perspective, it's very disappointing that so many pupils leaving our education system after 11 years can't hold a basic conversation in Welsh. That is terrible, if I'm honest, and if we were talking about any other subject in the education system I'm sure there would be a very strong response across the country to that. As I mentioned, Welsh is a skill. It is a skill. It opens doors culturally and on a professional level, and there's a need for us to recognise that. There is a recognition at a Government level, but in terms of the system it's clear that there is a need for reform, and that is why I welcome the new categories and the transitional categories particularly. I think that does provide an opportunity for us, across Wales, to look at every school to see how we can move those schools along the continuum. Essentially, what we're talking about here is ensuring pupils have the ability and proficiency to communicate through the medium of Welsh during the school day, during school hours. That's what it is in its simplest form. And of course the workforce, and developing the workforce, as Meinir mentioned, is going to be central in that regard. So, that's the piece of work that's most important, in my view, and the one that we need to focus on at a national level. Thank you.

Thank you, Darren. Tom.

In the previous session, when we mentioned the English-medium sector and staff, some of the people who gave us evidence mentioned skills—. Well, two things—one was skills and the other was confidence—as problems. They were telling us that not everyone knew what Welsh language skills staff had in English-medium schools. So, does that happen? Do English-medium schools always know who in their school or college can speak Welsh, if they have those skills, in your experience? And then, how can we develop not only the skills but also the confidence among the staff too?

Meinir.

In terms of assessing the skills of staff, there's the school workforce annual census—the pupil level annual schools census equivalent for school staff. There's a special opportunity there to have a national picture of what the language skills are of everybody in Wales, really, who works in a school at any level. So, the SWAC, I think, is something that we can develop. The only thing, perhaps, that is a weakness in that is that I think that would be self-assessment, the individual would have to note their proficiency in Welsh, and there's going to be a variation in that sense. Perhaps there's an opportunity to look at the role of the Education Workforce Council in terms of portfolios on the language proficiency of the workforce and so on, and that there is a partnership with the Education Workforce Council as well as part of that. Identification is one step. Genuine identification of those members of staff who can speak Welsh, who are confident speakers and so on—that certainly is one thing, but we have to be careful with any sort of self-assessment, because self-assessment could perhaps lead to inconsistencies.

The second issue relates to confidence, and this is essential, isn't it, because we hear so many people say, 'Yes, I've only got the Welsh of some particular town,' rather than being proud of that Welsh language. I think that's the major message that we need to convey. Councillor Price has already spoken about confidence, that we really need to ensure that the emphasis is on speaking, that the psychology is on maintaining and supporting, not on correctness. Correctness is something that will develop, but, if you destroy somebody's confidence, they won't speak the language in the first place. So, that confidence part of things, it does relate to language psychology in part, I think. It does relate to us saying that we don't expect them to read or write publicly, but we do expect them to have that support to use the language they have. And once they have successful experiences of using the Welsh language they have, they're going to use more of the language. So, I do think that that confidence element comes back to the oral element. It comes back to qualifications and learning experiences that respect the oral element above other skills, but it's also about creating an ethos of being proud of the use of the language and ensuring that people are respected for using the Welsh that they have. And under that, of course, is the whole system of professional learning, of developing the skills of the workforce, which relates to sabbatical courses, virtual courses and all the mechanisms related to that.

Thank you, Meinir. Before I bring Darren in, we are into our final 15 minutes. But we have plenty of time left. We'll go to Darren now.

Thank you very much. I think that point on confidence is crucially important, as Meinir mentioned. And of course there are professional learning systems in place and there are plans by all local authorities. But what we see is there is great variety between the offers in different areas, and I think there is scope to have a discussion on creating a national system that would ensure consistency in that offer. I declare an interest here, because my wife did teach on the sabbatical course at Trinity College in Carmarthen, where teachers take a year out of the classroom to improve their language skills and to gain confidence in the use of the Welsh language. And that's one approach, but we're also aware that councils often develop internal systems that are different, and so I think that there is a role to have that discussion at a national level to ensure that the provision is of the highest quality and that it does deliver against the objectives—namely, that we create teachers who are more confident and are willing to go back to the classroom and use the Welsh language with pupils. That's crucially important.

That meets one requirement in the short term, of course, but, as I mentioned earlier, I think the major piece of work that we need to focus on is ensuring that we create a supply of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh through our colleges and training courses. That, in my view, is the key in the long term. But, of course, the sabbatical courses and other courses have a role to play in filling that gap and in supporting our English-medium schools in the short term. Thank you.

Thank you, Darren.

Just one more question from me: what could the Welsh Government do to encourage or incentivise local authorities to strengthen Welsh-medium provision within their areas, particularly in relation to the English-medium sector?

Meinir.

Thank you. To go back, perhaps, to a point in terms of upskilling the workforce—and it's part of the answer to this as well—one of the things that we've done at a local level, of course, is accepting schools that say it's difficult to release staff for long periods of time. The supply of staff in the supply sector isn't necessarily there to allow the release of staff in the first place. So, what we have done to support primary schools in changing the language medium and upskilling staff is that we have located a tutor, every day, all day, in that school to work alongside the teacher or staff in the classroom. And I think that's been of great benefit in those examples where we've managed to do that, because what you have is not a divorce between the Welsh you teach and the Welsh that you use in work, but both come together, because the support is there in the classroom, side by side with the providers, and that has been successful. But, as I said, that is a heavy resource for us to provide.

In terms of the question regarding the success of the English-medium sector primarily, I think perhaps that reflecting and repeating a number of points that have already been made is what I would do, really, which also relates to investing in the workforce: the point that Councillor Price was making—in the long term, ensuring that we don't have to invest so much in the current workforce because the education system is producing those people through our system anyway, that they have sufficient Welsh to have a conversation in lessons through the system that they've benefited from. But, in the medium and short term, that investment in the workforce and ensuring, as I said before, that that professional learning is in place, that there is a quality offer and that the grants are supporting the right places.

Thank you, Meinir. We're in our final 10 minutes now, and I'm keen for Buffy Williams to be able to come in. Darren, was there anything, briefly, that you wanted to add to that?

No, nothing to add. I'm happy.

You're happy—great. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks for joining us today. Could you tell us please what engagement takes place between local authorities and stakeholders in the development of WESPs and what role do stakeholders play in supporting the delivery of local authority targets?

Meinir.

Yes, certainly. In terms of those stakeholders, there is all kinds of engagement and consultation before the WESPs are drawn up and they are also involved in monitoring them too. The most apparent would be the Welsh in education forum that every local authority has, and it's important that that forum is fully representative of the authority in that we don't just go to the most prominent organisations, but that they do represent society as a whole.

Certainly, in terms of engagement, an example here locally: we engaged with every school council before drawing up our WESPs in terms of the children and young people themselves, as well as the fora and as well as the public consultation that we undertook—all of those things are in place. But I think that, in terms of stakeholders, as we move forward, the key is to ensure that the language fora are broad and truly represent the communities within those local authorities and, as I said, are not a special interest group, perhaps, but that they do represent the whole scope of opinions.

Diolch, Meinir. Darren.

Yes, I think the word 'stakeholder' is an interesting one, I think, because what do we define as that? Clearly, we've got providers who work with us—so, we can think of early years providers, be they private sector, third sector, Mudiad Meithrin—they are vital in terms of developing these strategic plans. I know that councils have looked to do that over the past few years.

But, for me, the key stakeholders, really, are the public. What we often find is that there are cohorts of people who are yet to be convinced of the merits and the benefits of Welsh-medium education and it's absolutely vital that we address some of the concerns that they have head on. They are valid concerns, particularly from parents who are from—pupils from non-Welsh-speaking backgrounds. I think there is a really big piece of work that we need to do as councils across Wales really, to reassure those parents that, actually, there's a support mechanism in place and at the end of the journey, the child will have an additional skill, which may not be deliverable through another avenue. So, there's a big piece of work for me on that front.

So, when I think of stakeholders, yes, I think about those providers and the public sector organisations that we work with, but there's also that vitally important piece of work in terms of engaging with the public, not just on the overall strategy. And that's going back to the point I mentioned earlier in terms of the importance of Welsh Government as well in terms of really promoting that national message in terms of the benefits of bilingualism. But also, on a very local level, when we do decide, as authorities, to move certain schools along the continuum—that we do a really in-depth piece of work with those local communities through that process of change, because it can be unsettling and it can be worrying for certain cohorts and we have to recognise that.

I'll bring Meinir in—briefly, please, Meinir, because we've only got about six minutes left.

I totally agree with Councillor Price there. At its best, when we have changed the mediums of schools, we've worked with the menter iaith, with the family teams and family centres, and so on. So, that co-ordinated approach is very important in moving forward. And the certainty is, in fact, that some of our stakeholders in the third sector contribute to the WESPs and support the WESPs—that that is there in the conditions and terms of the grants in the third sector, in their crucial role in supporting the sector.

Diolch, Meinir. Buffy.

Thank you. And lastly from me, does the 10-year education workforce plan provide local authorities with the certainty required to deliver on their WESP targets? And how can the professional learning offer for staff be strengthened?

Thank you, Buffy. Who would like to go first? Meinir.

Thank you. There is some discussion to be had around the 10-year workforce plan. I am aware that there are focus groups and other groups that have been established and will meet very soon to tackle the implementation of that strategy. And certainly, we are seeing certain things already; the role of the Open University is developing, and is funding the secondary sector in developing Welsh-medium staff. There are other things that I'm sure that we could add to that plan in a pragmatic manner that would develop the workforce over 10 years. And this relates essentially to making education a profession that people do truly want to be committed to. So, it's not just the Welsh-medium workforce. The whole profession has to be a profession that is attractive, and we must get that throughput through our schools. It's one thing for children to study Welsh at A-level; they would need a degree in Welsh to teach Welsh later. So, in terms of qualifications and how attractive Welsh qualifications are, that's all very important in terms of the workforce.

Professional development is crucial, not just for staff who need more confidence, but everywhere along the continuum, the provision of professional development is crucial and there needs to be improved co-operation between different areas of Wales, and that's starting to happen, but there are also opportunities. For example, we have a group of staff in our immersion centres in some areas of Wales who are highly skilled. The work that they do is excellent. But do we share that sufficiently and in a structured manner across all parts of the sector? I'm not sure, and I think those are very practical things that we could address.

Thank you, Meinir. And finally to Darren.

Thank you. I think, as we mentioned before, this is important for the success of WESPs across Wales. We've spoken a lot about scrutiny, and of course, scrutiny on the Welsh Government's ability to deliver a supply of teachers who can speak Welsh is going to be central to the success of these WESPs, and I'm sure that you as a committee over the next year will keep an eye on that. We were talking earlier about the need for continuous and regular discussion between Welsh Government and local councils on how we go forward and deliver the targets. I think it's important that Members of the Senedd in general keep their eyes on the situation regarding the supply of teachers over the next few years, because without that, it won't succeed. That is clear to everybody, and therefore, those conversations and that scrutiny are going to be essential in moving forwards. Thank you.

Thank you very much to both of you. We have reached the end of our time with you this morning. A transcript of what you said will be sent to you to check, but thank you very much on behalf of every member of the committee, and thank you for everything that you've told us. Thank you.

To Members, as we agreed previously, we'll continue in private. We'll wait to hear that we are in private session, but thank you to the witnesses again.

Thank you very much.