Equality and Social Justice Committee

We'll now take a short break and we will be returning in public session at 13:45, where we'll be hearing from the well-being of future generations commissioner. But, under Standing Order 17.42, can I get the committee's agreement to exclude the public from items 4, 8 and 9? Thank you.

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee and, this afternoon, we're going to be scrutinising the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. Before we start, I'd just like to say that we've had apologies from Ken Skates; I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant to join us instead. Are there any declarations of interest that anybody needs to make? Fine. In that case, I'll move straight on to welcoming Sophie Howe, the future generations commissioner; Heledd Morgan, the lead change maker; and Jacob Ellis, the lead change maker for public affairs and international. So, thanks very much, Sophie, for joining us. I just wondered if you can give us a quick overview of your latest annual report and the work since you last came to committee.

Thank you, Chair. It's lovely to be with you. I'll give some headlines from this year's annual report. Most of the work that we do stems from 'The Future Generations Report 2020', which was published in 2020, and following up on those recommendations, adapting and flexing them in line with current circumstances, for example, the cost of living. So, we've been tracking progress on those recommendations in 'The Future Generations Report', and we've identified that, in terms of the Welsh Government's response to that, 51 per cent of the commitments in the programme for government were aligned to the recommendations in 'The Future Generations Report', which we're quite pleased out.

We've been involved in shaping national policy in respect of the roads review, which has gone to Government but is yet to be fully announced; on housing retrofit, particularly financing the retrofit challenge; and been involved in helping the Government on net zero. And on the skills review and reviews of qualifications, again we're pleased to see that there is that shift from purely a focus on examinations towards a more assessment based, with only seven of the 28 subjects for examination focusing more on exams than other forms of assessment.

We've secured a number of changes in how public bodies are implementing the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and have been running a relationship management set-up, if you like, from my office, in response to the Public Accounts Committee inquiry, to try to provide better support to public bodies beyond Welsh Government. We've also reviewed the well-being assessments and provided advice on well-being plans to all of the public services boards across Wales.

We've launched the second phase of our future generations leadership academy. This is now up to 60—. Well, sorry, 50 young leaders across Wales have been through that programme and are championing the Act in their sectors, including the establishment from that of a future leaders academy based on that model within the south Wales industrial cluster, which has plans to decarbonise industry in south Wales.

We've been a proud ambassador to Wales in the world, representing Wales at COP, and we are seeing the development of legislation in Scotland, an appetite in Ireland and, of course, the UN commitment for a future generations declaration. We've raised awareness of the Act, had around 200 pieces of media coverage, appeared before six Senedd committee, supported young people around COP, and partnered with something called The Democracy Box, where we're working with young co-creators to create content on what the future generations Act means for young people. And then we've revised some of own internal approaches, so we're increasing the black, Asian and minority ethnic profile of my staff in particular, and introducing a domestic abuse policy.

Thank you. That's a whirlwind tour of all the things you've been doing. Thank you very much. Before I hand over to other Members, I just wanted to look at one specific that you highlighted in your annual report, and that's the 'Skills through Crisis: Upskilling and (Re)Training for a Green Recovery in Wales' report, which was an excellent report with the New Economics Foundation. Nevertheless, the level of progress on that was highlighted in the Warm Homes inquiry that this committee did earlier, and, in particular, we're very concerned that the net-zero skills plan still hasn't been published, even though, in the response to the report, it was promised for December, and it's now been kicked to some future date in the new year. I just wondered what input you might have had in joining up the dots between different Government departments.

My team, specifically Heledd—and perhaps I'll ask her to pick up on this—have been very involved from the position of there not being a net-zero skills plan in progress at all to pushing for the development of one, and then intervening and advising on what that should look like and joining up across Government. We've done a huge amount of work there, but perhaps I could bring Heledd in to give a more detailed answer to you, Chair, on what that looks like.

Okay. Heledd.

Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Chair. As the commissioner started to outline, really, we've been advising this part of Government for quite a few years now on developments around this, trying to match up and highlight, as the 'Skills through Crisis' report did, really, some of the stark gaps and the persistent inequalities, unfortunately, in some of these industries for the future. So, most recently, I sat on an expert panel that had been commissioned, I understand, by the Cabinet member Jane Hutt, to look at how one might mainstream equality and look at a just transition to net zero, all with the aim of feeding into the new net-zero skills plan. I understand that that report and those findings from that panel are with Welsh Government officials, and perhaps that's contributed to some of the delay in publishing the net-zero skills plan. But what I would say, Chair, is that we have been quite encouraged by some of the other things that have been published by Welsh Government in this space, this year. The economic resilience and reconstruction mission was last year, but the new employability strategy, the five priorities—I also advised officials on that—are things that we'd really want to see. So, they are: future generations, tackling economic inequality, fair work for all, healthy work and learning for life. So, things are moving in the right direction, but I'm looking forward to seeing the published net-zero skills strategy plan as well.

Okay. Because we're not going to be able to decarbonise people's homes, if we haven't got the skills to do it, so that is something that is definitely a piece of work that needs to be done in the future. Can I pass over to Sioned Williams now?

Thank you, Chair. I would also like to focus specifically on one aspect of your work, namely your latest paper on the cost-of-living crisis. Could you share with us the key messages from that paper, please?

Yes, of course. The piece of work that—. I suppose it's important to say that the piece of work that we started doing on this was a number of months back, and we were working with a range of different stakeholders, really building on some of the things we had in 'The Future Generations Report', and looking at which ones you would prioritise and target in respect of the cost-of-living crisis. As those policies were developing—. This was pre some of the really challenging issues that came from the UK Government, and obviously the changing economic outlook as a result of some of those challenges. Nevertheless, the approach that we've taken is to try to look at, yes, we are in a cost-of-living crisis and things are really urgent for very many people, but what are the things that governments could do that would both ease some of that cost-of-living crisis in the short term and have longer term benefits across the range of well-being goals.

So, the areas that we've focused on have been public transport, and in particular free public transport for young people. I have to say, since publishing this, there's barely a week that goes by that I'm not in some forum somewhere. Last week, I was in a forum on creative skills, where stakeholders were saying that this is one of the main barriers to young people, in particular, being able to access work and training. We would like to see free public transport rolled out for everyone, but obviously recognising the cost implications of that, we think starting with the under-25s—. The reason behind that is, under-25s, the cost-of-living crisis, obviously we need to make sure that they're able to access skills, and embedding a mindset around use of public transport in those younger age groups tends to have that ongoing behavioural change implication.

Secondly, we reiterated what we said previously about a well-managed housing retrofit programme. We do think that there were missed opportunities with the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund in that, had the UK Government and the Welsh Government come together with local authority partners to really focus those resources on delivering a well-managed housing retrofit programme across the social landlord sector, or the social housing sector, but also beyond, then we think we could have made a much bigger dent in the need for retrofit. We’re pleased to see the money that has gone in to social housing there, but it’s not enough across the board.

We really welcome what the Welsh Government have done in terms of announcing the publicly owned renewable energy company. Obviously that has really long term and potentially very exciting implications for the people of Wales in terms of clean energy at a low cost. With the benefit of hindsight, it is something that perhaps we would all have liked to have happened 10 years ago, so that we could be reaping the benefits of that now, but nevertheless it’s good that the Welsh Government are taking that on.

Thank you very much. As to what’s been announced by the Welsh Government, you have listed a fair number of things there, for example, transport—we haven’t seen any kind of cost-of-living measures regarding transport cost relief. But, in terms of what they have done, to what extent do you think those measures are aligned with the Act, especially thinking about the disproportionate impact that the cost-of-living crisis has had on some groups in particular, like women, like young people, disabled people, et cetera?

Yes, diolch. This cost-of-living plan, there are very many things that could be done in a policy context, but this was really designed to influence the budget, and of course the budget is being published tomorrow, so we don’t know as yet how much of this, if any, is being taken on board. What we do know, for example, on public transport, this is where we think the model that the Welsh Government is operating, I have to say, worked really successfully in COVID times—this model of social partnership—and there’s a real opportunity there for bringing that almost crisis partnership response that happened during COVID to this cost-of-living crisis.

We know that local authorities, for example, are already implementing some elements of free public transport. Cardiff have done some things over school holidays, Monmouthshire are doing free public transport on weekends in the run-up to Christmas. So, I think that the role for Government here might not be to say, 'Suddenly we found £100 million down the back of the sofa'—we know that that’s not going to happen—but actually bringing people together. When the Confederation of British Industry are raising with me, 'We’re talking to employers and this is one of the key barriers to young people accessing our skills and training'; when the creative sector are saying the same things; when those people working with young people in poverty are saying the same things, and local authorities are saying the same things, then actually I think there could be some bringing together to see what is possible in terms of the kind of incremental phasing towards free public transport.

In terms of the inequality impact, in everything that we do we apply all of the Wales seven well-being goals, and the intention is that these priorities in the cost-of-living plan are really addressing the issues for those who are most vulnerable in our communities. We know that disabled people and women, for example, rely more heavily on public transport than others. We know that the cost of food has a particular impact on women and children, and disabled people, of course, who are most vulnerable. Likewise in terms of the cost of energy bills, and so on; they are particularly profound for disabled people. So, in everything that we've considered here, we have looked at that equality dimension, and we're looking at that both in terms of how these measures can help in the short term and how these measures can help in the long term.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Just following up on one point, it's the Department for Work and Pensions who should be paying for young people to be able to get to a job interview, isn't it? What conversations have you had, if any, with a non-devolved Government department on this?

We haven't had any conversations with the DWP, but I think it's a point well made, Chair. I suppose the challenge is the very formal, 'Are you going for a particular job interview?', or what I seem to be picking up from all of these different stakeholders, which is just this sense of it being a barrier. I was talking about the Welsh Government bringing together through that social partnership model; perhaps the DWP should be part of those conversations. Because if it is an identified barrier across a range of different sectors, and there are all of these different players who have a part to play in perhaps addressing that, then, of course, they should be part of that conversation.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing with the committee the section 20 review report, which was published today. I know Altaf Hussain has got some questions on that.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon, commissioner. Will you give an overview of the section 20 review, including the process, key findings and recommendations? What challenges or barriers have you faced in engaging with senior officials as the review commenced?

Thank you. I decided just over a year ago to commence a section 20 review into the machinery of Government. The reason why I launched that review was because I am of the view—and there's extensive evidence to suggest—that there are a number of progressive policies coming out from Welsh Government, and we've talked about a few them already this afternoon, but I wanted to be assured as I was coming towards the end of my term that, should there be a change in commitments, say, at a political level, for implementing the future generations Act, it would be sufficiently embedded in the machinery of Government to ensure that statutory duties were still met.

I have undertaken this review in, I suppose, a different way to perhaps how the Wales Audit Office and other commissioners might undertake the review, in that we've applied the five ways of working in the legislation and we started this review off on a collaborative footing with Welsh Government—so, saying that we would work with them during the course of the review. What that has meant in practice is weekly meetings between my review team and Welsh Government officials and regular meetings between myself, the Permanent Secretary and senior officials in Welsh Government. We think—and I'll say a little bit more about that—at the moment that that collaborative approach has probably borne fruit, and has been a useful way of conducting these sorts of reviews.

In terms of the findings of the review—so, some overarching findings—the Act and the extent to which it's being embedded in the DNA of Welsh public policy development and delivery continues to be world-leading. That is not to say that there aren't frustrations about how the Act is embedded in the machinery of Welsh Government, and, indeed, elsewhere. But every other Government, even the progressive ones—so, I would talk here about Canada, I would talk about New Zealand, I would talk about Finland, I would talk about Ireland—[Inaudible.]—developing their first well-being framework. Even those progressive Governments have not gone as far as Wales have done to really embed the approach in the DNA of Government and others.

The reach of the Act and enthusiasm for its commitments to what it aims to achieve have extended beyond those organisations covered by the Act. We are increasingly seeing third sector organisations—you know, we are pushing at an open door there, to be fair—but increasingly private sector organisations coming to us, wanting to use the framework of the Act to form a basis for the things that they do. A really good example of that recently is the Football Association of Wales launching their sustainability strategy, which we worked with them on, just before the Welsh team went off to the world cup. They don't have to do that, but with the way in which the Act is developed, they are really keen to do that.

The success to date of what has happened in terms of progress from the Act has resulted more from committed leadership, we think, than embedded processes. There are challenges in terms of some of those processes in Welsh Government. We found that there's a sense of pride and enthusiasm amongst the machinery of Government, amongst civil servants, but there's some discrepancy between the level of enthusiasm and commitment for the aspirations of the Act and then a detailed understanding of its application. We found that there's a plethora of learning materials around the Act; some of them are good, some of them could be improved. One of the biggest challenges there is that the Welsh Government do not yet have a clear sense of who needs to have what level of detailed understanding about implementation of the Act. We found that—and this might be obvious in some ways—policy officials had a much better understanding than those operating in the corporate areas of change. Yes, you can sort of understand that, you'd say that it's all about policy, except the corporate areas of change—so, procurement, spending, workforce planning, for example—are all specifically named in the statutory guidance of the Act as being the areas where we expect to see change. But there were lower levels of awareness and understanding in those areas.

We found that, although there are concerted efforts to embed long-term thinking across Government, there does need to be more action in this area, both in terms of the specific tools, training, support and development for the civil service to apply long-term thinking, future-trends scenarios, foresight techniques, but the fact that the civil service are repeatedly and constantly almost having to respond to crises is really inhibiting their ability to do that. There has to also be a recognition and a drive from Ministers to say, 'Actually, before we respond to this, we need to be thinking about the long-term implications. That's one of the reasons why I published this cost-of-living plan: what are you doing in the short term that also has long-term gain?

There are a few other areas. The future generations Act is driving changes in the way that policies are being developed, designed and implemented, but it's not yet consistently being applied in a way that embeds all aspects of the Act. Again, we found some really good practice in terms of collaboration, an increasing amount of good practice in terms of integration and involvement, and some really strong examples of long-term. But long-term thinking is not being consistently applied across every policy intervention and every bit of policy development. The approach to prevention is not yet well enough understood by officials in Welsh Government. Again, there are shifts towards the ethos of that, but on having a technical understanding of what is primary prevention, secondary prevention, tertiary prevention and acute spending, for example, further work is needed.

Thank you very much for that great answer. Many public bodies have taken to developing in line with the future generations Act, embedding the principles and mission. Is the Welsh Government an example, or are they lagging behind others?

Great question. If we start from the perspective that I hold, which is that I think almost the test for Welsh Government or the bar for Welsh Government is in some ways higher than for most other public bodies, because they produced and promoted the legislation, it's their role to show leadership to the rest of the public sector, in many ways they are showing that leadership, but in many ways there are still some challenges and frustrations between what they're doing at a very strategic level and then those day-to-day interactions with public bodies.

It's not a secret—I've said this perhaps to this committee before—that one of those areas that I've had increasing concerns about has been the health sector. Just prior to COVID, I was actually going to undertake a section 20 review with the exam question being, 'Does the Welsh Government's health department help or hinder the implementation of the future generations Act by health boards?' That was obviously not continued because of the COVID crisis. We hear often that, yes, we've progressed in terms of having a 10-year plan for health. There's been a big shift, actually, from Eluned Morgan more recently, or since she's taken over as health Minister, in terms of a bigger focus in health on prevention, on well-being, on social prescribing, on a shift to getting upfront of these issues. But come back then to the day-to-day interaction between Welsh Government and health service colleagues being, 'What are your waiting times?', 'How are you managing your budgets?' and so on, and that preventative discussion can get lost in that. These are big, big challenging issues, and I'm afraid there's every chance that they'll get worse during this cost-of-living crisis, during funding challenges and so on. It's impossible to tell, isn't it, would things be even worse if you didn't have a future generations Act and a Minister who was committed to it. Yes, I think they would be, but that's not to say that the challenges aren't there writ absolutely large.

Okay. We heard what you said. We can always come back to it. We're going to need to move on now, because we've still got quite a lot of questions in this first section. Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much. Welcome, commissioner—it's nice to see you. I want to ask you, if that's okay, to look back at when you started in your role. The question is: in your opinion and in your experience, has the role and responsibilities of the role changed over time since you started?

Yes. There are some very technical things, like the addition of new public bodies—so, corporate joint committees, proposals to add other new public bodies to come under the remit of the future generations Act and therefore the remit of the future generations commissioner. But in terms of them changing from how they were originally envisaged, I don't think there is hardly any comparison, really, between how they were originally envisaged and how they've panned out. I don't think that the Welsh Government, in setting the legislation, and particularly resourcing the office, imagined that there would be 350 well-being—. Well, they change regularly, but it's around about 350 well-being objectives that the commissioner had these duties to monitor and assess progress against. I don't think it was perhaps appreciated, the scale of the challenge in terms of working across all policy areas, and the scale of the challenge and resource needed to walk the talk of the Act when you're doing that. So, for example, just the number of stakeholders that are on our core list of stakeholders, if you like, is—. I suppose if you take a specific area, like the older people's commissioner, the list of stakeholders might be a bit more defined; likewise the children's commissioner and so on. Ours cut across every policy area, and involving and collaborating those stakeholders, for example, is hugely valuable, but also hugely resource intensive.

I think that the fact that the Act permeates everything that the public body does is both important but also in terms of how you provide that advice and challenge and support and so on to those public bodies, not just across all of those policy areas, where, for example, the commissioner is expected to have a view on issues to tackle the climate emergency and is equally expected to have a view on what the measures might be to tackle the quite disappointing figures that we saw in terms of Welsh language use declining, for example. You're expected to have a view across that broad range of areas, plus you're expected to be able to navigate technical things like the procurement landscape across Wales, like budget and financial planning, like how public authorities and public bodies are managing their assets. So, I don't know if I would say changed over time, because that was always written into the legislation. I think what has evolved, however, is the understanding of what that actually means in terms of the capacity of the commissioner to really get underneath the skin of those areas where public bodies are really crying out for support and where the public and politicians and others want the commissioner to intervene.

Thank you very much. And then, I have another question in terms of funding and budgets. We heard from you that there is a challenge in terms of the budget for your office. You discussed this subject with the Government. We have an interest in terms of whether the Government has responded to that, and also whether you have had discussions with the other commissioners to share back-office staff functions and so forth. Thank you very much.

Yes, diolch. The budget position continues to be bleak and potentially more bleak than last year. Last year, I was grateful for an uplift of £83,000 in the budget, which we understood to be a permanent uplift, bringing us in line with the older people's commissioner. We're now in discussion; it's not clear whether it was actually a permanent uplift, so there's every chance that we could lose that additional £83,000. I'm not sure—. I can't remember how much detail I went into with you last time around on what's known as the budget alignment exercise, but this is basically an exercise where previously, commissioners were able to carry over funding from year to year. I used that, and it was really significantly important to me, because my statutory duties fluctuate every year. For example, this year we've had to comment and provide intensive advice on 14 public services boards' well-being plans. That's not a duty next year. And then once every five years, there's a future generations report to write, which, again, is an intensive piece of work. So, a flatline budget does not account for those fluctuations in work. It also doesn't account for any statutory section 20 reviews that a commissioner might want to undertake. So, the inability—. That has changed now. So, the commissioner is not able to carry over those resources into, say, a five or a seven-year term period, which has significantly hindered my ability to manage those fluctuations. The Welsh Government also told us when we highlighted that the inability to hold cash in reserves was potentially compromising all of the commissioner's independence, because it meant that we would not have cash in reserve to be able to commission or to be able to undertake statutory reviews—the response from Welsh Government to that is that, if we wanted to undertake a statutory review, we should come and ask the Welsh Government for funding to undertake that statutory review. Now, in my mind, that cannot be allowed to continue, because that is a clear compromise to the commissioner's independence—that we have to go cap in hand to the Welsh Government to ask for resources potentially to undertake a review into Welsh Government. Nevertheless, that is the position as it sits at the moment.

In terms of resourcing with other commissioners, we've done a huge amount on that. So, we have shared a HR function, we share a payroll function, we jointly commission internal audit services. The work that I do in terms of sharing posts goes beyond just the other commissioners. So, for example, payroll is shared with the ombudsman. We have looked at sharing office accommodation, but because of the leasing arrangements with other commissioners and the timing, that has not been possible. I have downscaled my office over the last year, which has made significant cost savings, but I have a break clause in the lease there, which I've tied in with one of the other commissioners, which would enable the next future generations commissioner to decide and to have an aligned break-clause period should there be opportunities there for sharing.

So, in your opinion, we have an interest in the future to look at budget alignment and seeing the roles around that. Is that important?

I think it's hugely important. I think there are some really innovative ways that commissioners could generate income if they were allowed to do that, if they were allowed to carry it over. And actually, there's another problem, which is within the law, which says that we cannot generate a profit for services, we can only charge the cost of services. I could probably set up a subsidiary business tomorrow getting the private sector to have advice provided on the future generations Act, which would benefit them, and if we were able to charge at a profit, we could funnel that into the resources for the public sector, but the legislation specifically prohibits me doing that.

Very interesting. And thank you very much for your work. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Over to Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and good afternoon, commissioner. You mentioned in your answer to the first question, I think, how you provide support to public bodies and how that's changed recently. Perhaps you could talk a little bit more about the changes made and explain the new model.

Yes, thank you. So, we're really pleased with the new model that we've established. This was done in response to public bodies saying, 'We really value the advice of the commissioner and her team when they're able to provide it, but we want more of her time.' Using the final carry-over, if you like—financial carry-over—we were able to establish what is called a 'point-of-contact team', so we have members of staff in my team who have been allocated a certain number of public bodies each, and they have built relationships over time with those public bodies. So, the sorts of things that they are covering are, I suppose, on a strategic level, so being a kind of critical friend, helping those organisations to embed the Act in the way they're developing well-being objectives, for example, and looking at their kind of corporate plans and their integrated impact assessments and helping them to think about the seven corporate areas of change. And then, on a more operational level, sharing that best practice amongst different public bodies; facilitating and signposting—so, a lot of what we do is making connections between different bodies, or beyond public bodies as well, but some who are doing brilliant things that others could learn from; and then practical support on our resources. So, we have a lot of resources out there—toolkits and frameworks for embedding the future generations Act that public bodies told us that they need a kind of hand-holding approach to doing that. So, that has been embedded.

Up until now, I think we've had 412 requests for support through that kind of mechanism, so that's up again on last year. The majority of those are on implementing the Act in specific areas and topics, a lot on decarbonisation and energy and a lot on procurement in particular. But they really kind of vary from helping Sport Wales on their corporate objectives and getting them to do an honest reflection of how well they're progressing on their well-being goals. Likewise with the arts council, helping them to set new well-being objectives; and Natural Resources Wales, helping them to consider how they might set up a citizens' assembly; Velindre Trust, particular advice on specific projects and how they would embed the future generations Act into those projects. I could go on and on, but that's the flavour of the sorts of things that are coming from public bodies, and we've had a really, really positive response to that sort of new level of support that we're able to provide. But I have to say, just following on from the answer that I just gave to Jane, that team is at risk if we're not able to secure this ongoing budget uplift.

Thank you for that, and it's helpful to have those examples as well. Just finally from me: what impact will extending the well-being duty to those eight additional public bodies have on your office?

It's very difficult to say in financial terms. We've done a calculation—we think that there is an estimated cost of between £36,000 and £48,000 per public body per year. That is obviously taking into account the whole—analysing the whole cost of my office and support that we provide.

We are particularly concerned that—. So, there's a real challenge at the moment, because those new public bodies won't come online until around a year's time. At the end of this financial year, if I don't get increased funding, I am going to lose the team who provide advice and support, or that more intensive advice and support, to public bodies. We'll then have new public bodies coming onstream, and if the Welsh Government finance those new public bodies, I will then have to re-recruit people and train them and do all of those things, whereas what we're saying that we need is, once there's a final decision taken on which public bodies are coming under the future generations Act, there should actually be a kind of pre-implementation period, and we learnt this from the first phase, where those organisations will need advice and support before they're officially covered by the Act to get them up to speed on the duty, so we see that kind of intensive period before they're even covered in terms of the input that'll be needed from my office, but it's going to be impossible for us to provide that without additional resources.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you very much. Sarah Murphy.

Thank you, Chair. I'm going to ask some questions about how, to outline, PSBs, CJCs and other regional bodies interact. So, do you still have concerns over this complex governance landscape?

Sadly, yes, I do still have concerns about that. It remains the case that we think that PSBs are often overlooked by the Government. There is still animosity over funding—for example, quite a bit of funding going into RPBs, the regional partnership boards, not into the public services boards. It's the nature, I suppose, of how public services work that people and prioritisation will follow where the money sits, and the money is sitting with regional partnership boards at the moment.

We outlined a number of areas in my future generations report, and I think these were reiterated, or there were very similar views from the auditor general around this, and we still think that there is this complex landscape and that PSBs are not being utilised or supported to get to reach their full effectiveness.

Thank you. Do you have any suggestions, then, on how that should be done? What would you ask, I suppose, Welsh Government and others to make happen so that public services boards—those issues are addressed?

I think that, indeed, in the section 20 review, we had a look at this as well. We think that there could be clearer guidelines and expectations on the role of the Welsh Government official who sits on each one of the public services boards in terms of them coming back into Welsh Government, being a kind of spokesperson or spokespeople for PSBs, making the connections between what PSBs and their well-being plans are aiming to do and how that interacts with Government, what the barriers might be and so on.

We think that, before any new governance arrangements are established, there should be a real sense check as to how they interact with the public services boards. Could they be done by public services boards? What are the reporting requirements and how do they link together? Sometimes, you have the same people sitting on each of the boards. Other times, you have different people, and then the dots are not necessarily joined up.

I think that there's a need for the Government to recognise that, particularly to get preventative work on primary prevention, the public services boards really do have around the table most of the key services and agencies that can take a primary preventative approach. So, if we look, for example, at regional partnership boards, the interface between health and social care, actually, if you want to reduce hospital admissions, loneliness and isolation and a range of other things that—[Interruption.]—sorry about the dog barking. And a range of other things that RPBs are then trying to deal with, actually, a lot of the interventions are around that PSB table. They're about housing, they're about transport, they're about community safety, they're about all of those things. That's where I don't think there's a clear enough recognition of the role of the PSB and how they should be linked back to delivering those longer term preventative interventions that benefit other services.

Thank you. That's really helpful. Thank you, Chair.

We have 22 local authorities, some of them half the size of the largest ones, and I always saw the public services boards as the vehicle for that long-term, joined-up working. They've been in existence now for six years. What work have you been doing to ensure that they were spearheading this collaborative approach, because it's very difficult to see how some of them are going to survive with the budget that we're going to be discussing tomorrow?

I agree with you, Chair, and we have seen some changes. So, we did a piece of work in 2017, looking at public services boards, and then, obviously, we've just looked at public services board plans and well-being assessments as well. In 2017, we said that they should consider whether the way in which they're chaired and resourced best supports the ethos of the future generations Act, particularly in respect of facilitating collaboration, integration and involvement. Now, in this most recent round, we've seen many PSBs challenging how they're operating and working on a regional scale, so five PSBs in Gwent have merged, Wrexham and Flintshire are working together to produce one plan, Cwm Taf and Bridgend are working together as Cwm Taf Morgannwg, west Wales—Carmarthen, Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion—are all working together, and the north Wales regional insight partnership. So, there's better collaboration, certainly at a PSB level.

We've seen better integration through their well-being plans—so, better attempts to explore the connections between topics and themes in detail—and much greater understanding of the climate and nature emergencies and of the wider determinants of health. I've got lots of examples that I could give you there, but I know we're short of time. We've seen much better work on involvement in terms of the work that PSBs have done to involve citizens in developing their plans, and we're seeing a better use of long-term trends, scenarios and foresight. So, we are definitely seeing improvements in the way that public services boards are operating. As to whether those public services boards then are driving, I suppose, dare we say, mergers between local authorities, I think that there is the foundational work there done in those better working arrangements in PSBs. So, if that were to happen, I suppose a bit like we saw in the COVID pandemic—. If we hadn't have had that partnership working through PSBs in the COVID pandemic, I think we would have been struggling with our public service response, perhaps in the way that they were struggling in England. The bringing together of those partnerships and those relationships having formed already, those relationships of trust and so on, were really critical, I think, in that response. I think we do have those embedded relationships in our public services boards at the moment, and I think, should there be a move towards any of those local authority mergers, then I think those public services boards will put us in a better place than perhaps we were seven, eight or nine years ago.

Okay. So, clearly, progress has been made. Are public services boards resilient enough now to weather the storm ahead in terms of the budgetary cuts that are, obviously, on the horizon?

Well, in some ways, contradicting what I've just said about the lack of resources for public services boards, the fact that they don't have any resources in and of themselves, and that they are all together trying to work out how we are going to weather this storm of financial crisis on the one hand in terms of their own resources, and the increased demand because of the cost-of-living crisis, they are actually in a reasonable position to be able to do that without the worries of their own entities' resources. So, I don't think that you can expect complete transformation from a public services board in the near future in terms of how they're making progress towards our well-being goals. The territory that a lot of our public services are in at the moment is trying to ensure that things aren't getting worse for people, and that the interventions that are put in place are holistic and, wherever they can be, long term. And I think those are the areas where the use of future trends and foresight, the fact that services and policy development are more integrated and the fact that they are increasingly recognising some of the preventative interventions that are needed, that, I think, places them in as good a position as they could be in in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis.

So, to finish, really, what are the areas that you're deeply worried about, because you're described as saying that you're deeply worried about some areas, so, which are they?

Sorry, Chair, do you mean in policy terms, or at the mechanics of the—?

Well, I think in terms of the progress on the national indicators, the milestones.

Well, I'm very worried about inequality continuing to widen. I am worried about health in that this shift towards prevention, which is desperately needed to turn off the tap in the long term on demand, is very, very difficult to achieve when demand is increasing and the system is under considerable pressure. Interestingly, I'm less worried about climate and decarbonisation than perhaps I was. That's not to say that I'm not worried, because, globally, nobody is meeting their targets. But, actually, the focus from public services boards—the increased understanding and action that they're taking on the climate and nature emergencies and the connections that they're making—I think that there's reason to be optimistic there, albeit optimism and some good things happening isn't enough in terms of the scale of the challenge that we face. But, if I had to summarise, I would say, it's widening inequalities and a real step back in terms of health prevention.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. Unless any other Members have got a burning issue they want to pick up on now, I suggest that we take a slightly earlier break, and possibly endeavour to come back five minutes earlier, if that's all right with you, Sophie?

Yes.

So, instead of coming back at—. If we can come back at 14:55, and then we can resume on the longer term perspective on your seven-year term. Thank you very much indeed. So, we'll see you at 14:55. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

We continue our scrutiny session with the well-being of future generations commissioner, and this second part is, really, looking backwards at the achievements of Sophie Howe's seven-year term. So, while Sophie fetches something—[Laughter.] Sioned Williams is going to start off the questions.

Thank you, Chair. You mentioned that looking at the focus areas in terms of setting out your own well-being aims—. Sorry, I'll start again. I've scribbled things down wrongly here. You described identifying your focus areas and setting your own well-being goals. So, I want you to assess your own progress towards achieving those—identifying your own well-being areas.

Sophie, you don't need to unmute yourself; the technical staff will do that for you.

Sorry, Chair. My connection broke up there. I don't know if you can still hear me. I think the question was about well-being objectives, but I didn't catch it, I'm sorry.

Sorry, I'll say it again. I was a bit unclear, Sophie. You described identifying your own focus areas as setting your own well-being objectives. So, how would you assess your progress towards that?

I'm sorry, Chair, I still can't hear that. Could you bear with me while I try to change to another network, which might get a smoother connection? I don't know if you can hear me. Sorry.

Yes.

Do we want to have a quick break? Yes, I think we'll take a quick break, Sophie, so that we can resolve this, and then we'll be straight back, for anybody who is listening or watching online.

So, welcome back to our second session with the well-being of future generations commissioner, looking back on her seven years in office. Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair. Considering that you have described identifying your focus areas as setting out your own well-being objectives, how would you assess your progress towards achieving them?

Yes, thank you, and apologies for that—now you’re also joined by my elf on the shelf, who is doing some sort of mission impossible in the background.

So, how I would categorise progress. So, we set six objectives, if you like, or six priority areas, at the beginning of my term: transport, planning and housing, and then jobs and skills for the future, adverse childhood experiences and better ways of keeping people well. I think the biggest transformation that we’ve seen is in transport, obviously starting with the decision not to proceed with the M4, but we’ve seen significant transformation beyond that. So, spending reducing from two thirds of what we were spending on our infrastructure being spent on roads to a third; active travel financing has gone from £5 million to £76 million from 2016 to 2021; we’ve got a new transport strategy; we’ve got 20 mph zones coming in; and increased investment in public transport. In terms of what’s happening on the ground, there have never before been more children cycling to school, for example, in Cardiff. Monmouthshire have seen an increase from 28 per cent to 69 per cent of pupils walking to school. There are active travel routes and Safe Routes to School has really been rolled out across Wales. So, I think there’ve been some really significant achievements in that area.

On housing, we’ve focused particularly, as we have with all of our interventions, on the areas that make the biggest contribution to each of the well-being goals. So, we’ve focused on the building of homes, and retrofitting and energy efficiency measures in homes. We have seen, in line with what we recommended to Government, an increase in the optimised retrofit programme, so an increase of £324 million in that. It’s not going to be enough to meet the broader challenges in the owner-occupier sector in particular, and we’ve already highlighted the ongoing challenges in terms of the skills connection to delivering that housing retrofit need.

However, in terms of skills, we have got a purpose-driven curriculum that is aligned with the future generations Act, and we’ve got GCSEs being reviewed with, as I said, 28 exams and only seven of them have the majority of their assessment through examinations. We’ve got a new post-16 commission for tertiary education, which is based around the future generations Act. We’ve got personal learning accounts, which are now aligned with a focus on green and future-fit industries. We’ve got a young person’s guarantee methodology that’s been designed using the Act, and of course we’ve got that upcoming net-zero skills strategy. We’ve seen significant reforms in procurement as a kind of cross-cutting issue to all of these things. So, the recommendations that I made on reform to the procurement system are currently being acted upon by Welsh Government.

Could I just ask one follow-up question, Chair? In that regard, understanding the special issues around health, in terms of those areas of focus, where would you say the least progress has been made? What's the most disappointing one for you?

Sorry, specifically on health, do you mean the least—?

No, apart from health, because there are special conditions there. Apart from that, because we acknowledge those conditions, in which area of focus has there been least progress, in your view? What's the most disappointing for you, looking back?

I'd probably go back to the planning system. There are a number of areas, because we can't get involved in absolutely everything, and there are lots of things that I would have liked to have been involved in that we just haven't been able to. I think, in terms of the planning system, there are still frustrations there. I think we've got a brilliant planning policy, but my frustration is the extent to which that is really being acted upon on the ground. And I think that goes to show, really, that when you cut so-called back-office functions—and planning is often seen as a back-office function that really was decimated during that period of austerity when front-line services were protected—actually, it's incredibly difficult for a service to respond to transforming the way that it does business with a real dire lack of resources.

I would have liked to—. If I was doing another seven years—maybe the next commissioner will look at this—it's something that I would go back in to have a look at in terms of the specific implementation. There are probably a number of areas where that needs to be continually looked at. With the review that we've just done into Welsh Government and some, to be fair, strong commitments for them to take action on the areas that we've identified, I genuinely believe that those things only happen if someone, somewhere externally is continually on the case of it, and I think that has sadly been one of my—. I don't know if it's a regret because I don't think I could have done anything differently, but I suppose one of my regrets is in terms of the resources and the capacity of my office to really provide that ongoing support and challenge in those areas. I think it's resulted in some of those areas not making as much progress as we might like.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Altaf Hussain. Go ahead.

Chair, is it me?

Yes, go ahead, Altaf—please go ahead.

Okay, thank you very much. Now, looking back, commissioner, what do you consider to be the biggest achievement and biggest challenge, and also what would you say is your biggest disappointment?

Okay. So, there are a number of policy changes and transformation in policy that I could point to, and I'm not going to re-rehearse those because I've pointed to a number of those already. But I suppose, underpinning all of that is that you have a piece of law that could become something that is done in the back-office of local authorities, in the context of corporate plans, and so on, and doesn't see the light of day anywhere else. But I genuinely believe that we've taken that piece of legislation and made it something that Wales is proud of, that people are voluntarily embracing, and that, in many cases, the eyes of the world are still very much looking to Wales in terms of being world leaders on this. So, I'm proud of the fact that there is this—. And one of the things we found, as I mentioned earlier, from the section 20 review into Welsh Government, is this passion, enthusiasm and commitment for what we're trying to achieve. Now, in any cultural change programme—and I've always said that this is the biggest cultural change programme that Wales will ever see—actually having people at a starting point where they're passionate about something, where they believe in the mission, and so on, is a massive bonus to driving any form of cultural change, and I think that that's what we've done with the well-being of future generations Act.

In terms of challenges, again, I suppose I've referenced a lot of these. We've been trying to unpick systems and ways of working: performance management systems; the way in which we allocate budgets; the way in which audit does its work; the way in which the complexity of our governance arrangements are set up. We've been trying to unpick those systems, many of which work against the aspirations of the future generations Act, and, in many cases, even since the future generations Act, more of those challenges and complexities have been added, and I've talked about those many times in this committee. And a lot of what my team has been doing is trying to get in on those issues before they become a problem, often successfully—so, what appear to be very minor things, like changing the criteria by which the transformation fund is allocating funding; advising on how you actually embed future generations thinking and the whole plethora of well-being goals on the waste strategy; reforms to procurement on how the Government interact and what the expectations are with external bodies on procurement. None of that seems particularly exciting stuff, but it's all stuff that my team are involved in every single day, to try and make sure that what is coming out from Government into public bodies is aligning with the future generations Act and isn't making it more difficult for them to implement the aspirations of it. So, sometimes, that is very challenging and, oftentimes, very frustrating.

Disappointment.

Biggest disappointment.

Biggest disappointment. Oh, gosh, that's a—. I suppose my biggest disappointment, really, is that we just haven't had the capacity to do more. I believe that I have one of the best teams operating in Wales—possibly anywhere in the world. And I know that, when our team go in and support public bodies, and act as a critical friend and challenge, then things do change, but I wish I could replicate them a million times over. I think that if we did that and there was more support for public bodies, then we could have achieved a lot more. That said, I'm incredibly proud of many of the transformational things that have been achieved as a result of this.

That's great. Now, looking to the future, can you predict a time when the future generations commissioner won't be required, and, if so, what would be the conditions?

Oh, what would be the conditions for no future generations commissioner? Well, it's having demonstrable embedding of every one of those principles in the future generations Act. And I would say it would be having achieved Wales's seven long-term well-being goals. The only problem with that is, obviously, things shift, and the goals that are relevant now, perhaps by 2045, when we've got vastly more older people, we've got new technological advances, we've got jobs that people are doing that don't even exist yet—we might all be living in the metaverse, for example—you know, goals will shift and will change.

So, I still think that there will be a need for someone or something to continually keep our institutions having that eye to the future, because there is an insatiable pull, isn't there, back to only reacting and dealing with the here and now, and some of that is for very valid reasons. Nobody is saying we shouldn't be dealing with the cost-of-leaving crisis now; people are literally in crisis, and it is the role of Government and other public services to help them. But creating that space to keep an eye on the long term and how your short-term interventions play out in the long term, that is something that I think will be a continual need. It might be, however, that that is so embedded in our systems that that's just happening and there's not a need for a future generations commissioner, but I think we're on a bit of a long-term mission with that.

Okay. Let's get back down to planet Earth. Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much, and thank you, commissioner. Again, it's not too dissimilar to the questions you've had already, but it's to ask what you think is the most tangible progress made by public bodies since the Act came into force. And that's not to say that all of the things you've just mentioned, like the culture change, aren't as important, but I suppose it's the things that, after having seven years, in the future now, when you walk past and you walk through communities, things that you'll see and you'll be able to say, 'That came about because of this.'

Yes. I could probably describe some of those journeys that I have. In fact, I came out of the BBC studios last week, I think it was, having a similar conversation of what are the tangible things, to be met by a big-scale programme on sustainable urban drainage and active travel routes, which have come about, actually, because of some passionate champions for the Act and some regulations that have changed to require sustainable urban drainage, and the big increase that we've talked about in terms of active travel.

If I were to go to a hospital site in Swansea, I might be seeing some of the arts in health programme and I might be seeing some of the biophilic communities, which is where Swansea Bay University Health Board has partnered with the National Botanic Garden of Wales to make their sites for nature. If I were to go to a school in Carmarthenshire, I might be going to a zero-carbon school. And, in the future, I might even be going to a zero-carbon school that I've actually, as a young person, or my kids as young people, have had a hand in actually designing. If I am, I don't know, a bee, a bird, in the Gwent levels, then my existence is still guaranteed—at least for the foreseeable future, because I won't have been trampled by a motorway. If I'm going to school in the Vale of Glamorgan, then I might be learning through the Big Bocs Bwyd, and I might be connecting with communities and learning entrepreneurial skills whilst also helping to address food poverty. If I were in Bridgend, I might be benefiting from reduced fumes and carbon emissions from waste, through some of the work that they're doing on transforming vegetable oil into hydrogen vehicles, for example. If I were in Cardiff and I was suffering with long COVID, I might benefit from the partnership with the Welsh National Opera, who are using singing to help to restore vocal cords and air and lung capacity and so on.

I could go on and on, but I think, wherever you reach, it's very difficult to say, 'That is as a direct consequence of the future generations Act.' But what I can say is that partnerships are happening as a result of the future generations Act that simply weren't in existence before, partnerships between unusual suspects: who would have thought, as I said, that Cardiff health board would be partnering with the Welsh National Opera? Who would have thought that the Welsh National Opera would even bother thinking about what their role was in terms of health? So, I think that there's some fantastic things happening out there. Much of that is testament to those champions out there, and shortly I'll be announcing my own change-maker list—100 change-makers across Wales who have been really driving that change. But the Act gives them the framework, the permission and the legal duty to drive that change and to challenge the system.

Thank you very much, commissioner. Thank you, Chair.

Before I bring Altaf Hussain back in, I wonder if I could just ask you whether—. In light of the very significant budgetary challenges the public bodies are going to be facing in the next few years, how confident are you that they've imbibed the well-being goals and ways of working sufficiently to make the right choices on what they're going to stop doing in order to prioritise the things that are most important to their communities?

We are certainly seeing shifts in that regard. Some of the most—. I've talked quite a bit about health and some of the challenges there, but, actually, on the flip side of that, some of the most fruitful conversations that I've had with health institutions have been in this sort of period just after COVID in terms of that being a real wake-up call, and how they're now looking at really transforming their services, focusing on these wider determinants and so on.

As much as there are frustrations about the support and the prioritisation of public services boards, I don't think you can underestimate either the power of bringing those people together to develop those honest and trusting relationships, and that is a sort of starting point for any more sensible approach to a crisis. I think that way of working, that collaborative working, that increasing integration and recognition of where we need to be intervening, where potential solutions could be outside of our immediate remit, that is absolutely invaluable in terms of responding to a crisis.

That's not to say that you're not going to get short-term interventions, and, arguably, where public bodies are positioned now for that is playing out in what we're seeing in the public policy landscape here in Wales. So, on the one hand, we're seeing more quite traditional, 'Here's a £200 energy payment', or, 'Here's a certain amount off your council tax' and so on and so on, to deal with an immediate crisis, and, whilst that might be necessary and does have some preventative benefits, I'm sure, it's not necessarily taking that long-term approach. That, however, combines with some really aspirational things from Welsh Government, like setting up their own energy company, like the basic income for care leavers and so on.

So, I think you're always going to get that short-term response in a crisis; the challenge is getting our public bodies to continue to sense-check across the long term. I think they're certainly in a better position with the future generations Act; there's that framework that everyone in Wales can corral around than if it didn't exist at all.

Thank you. Altaf, you wanted to come back in.

Thank you, Chair. My last question, commissioner: if you are setting out some advice for the new commissioner, where would you have expected public bodies to make more progress, and what challenges need to be overcome if the new commissioner is to have an impact?

Yes. Where would I have liked them to have made more progress? I would have liked them to have made more progress on decarbonisation and addressing the climate emergency. As I mentioned earlier, I think that that is escalating now, the sense of scale and pace, but I would have liked to have seen that scale and pace happen a number of years ago. So, I think that there are—. I think, the next commissioner, I would advise to not take—. Well, it's a terrible analogy, isn't it, when we're talking about the climate emergency, 'taking your foot off the gas'? But to keep on focusing in that area. I think that, the section 20 review that I've done into Government, if the improvement plan is implemented as promised, then I think that we should see significant changes in the interactions between Welsh Government and other public bodies and that would make it easier for other public bodies to meet their own duties. I've talked a lot about health, about some of the challenges there, and I think I would just go back to those areas in terms of where I'd like them to see more change.

Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Could I return and ask a question about—? You talked about the cultural shift. You asked about how can we make that cultural shift. In your opinion, how could we do that, particularly if you are passing something on to the new commissioner? What would you say? Thank you.

I suppose a bit of advice that I would give to the next commissioner is that there are amazing and inspiring people out there who absolutely, 100 per cent, believe in what the future generations Act is trying to achieve and are trying to do it in their day-to-day work. So, my advice would be: find them, work with them, showcase them, go and have it out with any people who are causing barriers to them doing their work, because it's those people who are really using the framework of the Act to drive change.

I think that there's something incredibly powerful about the different types of conversations that people are having now across different organisations. For example, getting people from Natural Resources Wales talking about adverse childhood experiences. I mentioned earlier the Welsh National Opera engaging in health. There are those sorts of conversations, which are really, really important. I think that there's something quite strategic that could happen, and I've often said this—if there was one thing that could transform a culture, it would always be a mass job swap across the public sector so that we have, as we have in some areas, the social workers working in teams with our policing colleagues, recognising that vulnerability is a kind of key challenge for policing as well as it is for social services; having, as they do in Swansea health board, the roll-out of creatives in residence—there are six creatives in residence in the health board who are bringing different perspectives to how the health service is being delivered. I think the role of Natural Resources Wales, for example, on public services boards, has brought a different dimension of discussion in terms of prioritisation around the environment. So, I think that cultural change—you have to find the people who are doing good things and work with them and scale them up, but I also think encouraging more of that swapping of ideas and challenge from a different perspective is really, really important in terms of that cultural shift.

Thank you very much. Very exciting to hear these examples. Thank you, and back to the Chair.

Very good. And finally from me, what's the one key piece of advice you would give to your successor?

Oh, wow. Well, I did think about this, actually, and I've got eight, so I'll try—[Laughter.]

I don't mind. You don't have to restrict yourself to one, but—.

So, I've just said about one—find the amazing, inspiring people and work with them. I think the first thing is you've got to get your head around a lot of things pretty quickly to be able to make the connections between them. I think that there is some real analysis for the next commissioner to do in terms of where he wants to position the balance between support, challenge and inspiration. I think it's very easy to go to the technical aspects of the Act, but sometimes a very technical implementation can kill off the inspiration, and I think there's something about continuing to build a level of excitement and the kind of movement around what we're trying to do here in Wales.

I think he's going to have some tough choices on priorities. I would, I suppose, counsel against trying to take on everything, as tempting as it is, and as many issues as there are to get his teeth into. I think he should remember that culture eats strategy for breakfast and that, actually, this is about cultural change, and, as I said, not necessarily about the technical application, as important as that is.

The final two things that I would say is that I hope he refuses to dumb down the aspirations of the Act and keeps bringing people back to the aspirations that the Act sets out, which is a complete transformation in Wales. He will have lots of people who tell him that all of these various things that are being proposed, in line with that aspiration, are not possible. But this is all about the art of the possible. They'll all tell you that it's impossible to do many of these things until you get it done. They said it was impossible to have a basic income. They said it was impossible to stop building roads. They said it was impossible to reduce the number of exams in our school system. All of those things are happening now, so I think he's got to believe in the art of the possible, build a movement, an alliance of progressive people, many of whom actually sit on this committee, and beyond in the wider world. I think if he does that, then anything is possible.

Thank you very much indeed. That's a wonderful completion. I suppose my only question is who first said 'Culture eats strategy for breakfast', because everybody around the table in the committee room is saying that's a great expression we've not heard before.

I think it's from one of those management texts. I suppose it's something that I genuinely believe in. My last seven years has definitely confirmed my view that culture eats strategy for breakfast, and possibly lunch and dinner too.

Very good. Thank you very much indeed. As you know, you'll be sent a transcript of your two sessions, and, obviously, you're very much encouraged to correct them if we've got anything wrong. Otherwise, I'd just like to thank you for your seven years in office, and the impact you have made on the well-being of Wales, and wish you all the very best for the future.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

Can we move into private session now please? Oh, no, sorry, before we move into private session, can I just ask Members if we can agree to note the papers, the three papers that you've all been sent to go on the public record? Thank you very much.