Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Thank you very much, and thank you to all who are attending today. Obviously, the weather is against us today, so our Chair, for those reasons, cannot join us, and I think that is the reason why a number of the witnesses are appearing virtually as well. May I ask, at the beginning of the meeting, whether there are any declarations of interest from members of the committee? No, none. Thank you very much.

Can we therefore move on? I am aware, because of the challenges relating to time, that we can only proceed until 11 o'clock with this session. So, may I ask all of the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, please? If we could start with the Minister.

My name is Vaughan Gething, I'm the Minister for Economy in the Welsh Government.

Diolch.

I'm Dawn Bowden, Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport.

Diolch. Jason?

Bore da. I'm Jason Thomas, director of culture, sport and tourism in the Welsh Government.

Thank you. And Nicky.

Nicky Guy, deputy director for culture in the Welsh Government.

Excellent. Thank you very much. I can't see any other witnesses with us currently. Thank you all for joining us.

If I could start, therefore, by asking you—clearly we have a challenging financial settlement currently, in the culture and sport areas specifically, and we have heard of a number of challenges in terms of that. Could you please outline any prioritisation exercise that you've undertaken when developing this draft budget?

Yes. If I talk in overall terms, then Dawn can talk about more of the specific portfolio areas that this committee has. In terms of our overall approach to the budget, we have, as a Government, prioritised health and care. We've prioritised local government, including education. Now, those are relative prioritisations, because, of course, we haven't had a flatline budget; we've actually had reductions to our budget in real terms, for reasons that everyone understands within inflation, but also, choices made by the UK Government at the last financial statement. That means that, to address the challenges that we all see around us, in our health and care system, in local government, and indeed, in education, that extra money comes at a cost, as it were, to other parts of Government. Now, that's a whole-Government strategy, so I'm signed up to that, this department is, and that has meant that we have had more challenging decisions to make to make sure that the budget passes.

In my previous budget scrutiny, I've explained that that means that, in some areas, we're not able to proceed, or we're proceeding at a slower pace. In this particular area, there has been relative protection in some areas. I think you'll find that we're still going to proceed with lots of our programmes in this section, but it does mean that there have been very difficult choices, and, obviously, if this, or any other committees want to call for extra spending in areas outside the priorities for the whole Government that I've stated, that means that the money has to be found in more reductions to other areas. So, it's an honest, but a very difficult challenge that will be familiar to lots of households, businesses and large organisations.

Alun Davies, if I can bring you in.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that, and he's absolutely right, of course—the easy thing about not being in Government is that there are no decisions to be taken, and everything can be seen as a priority. And I think we've all been through enough budget scrutiny sessions to have witnessed that.

But I want to understand, within Government and within budgets, the decision taking that you're making at the moment. You and I represent two very different constituencies—Cardiff South and Penarth and Blaenau Gwent—and I'm interested as to how you see the equality element or principle, if you like, of budgeting, because my constituents have access to far fewer cultural and sporting facilities than your constituents, so, I would anticipate the Government taking a principled decision that there would be a relatively greater investment in poorer parts—more deprived parts of the country—than in parts that don't suffer that deprivation in terms of availability of facilities, I'm talking about now. So, to what extent has that guided your thinking?

There's an overall perspective about the relative protections for healthcare, local government and education that actually is about recognising the stark socioeconomic differences in different parts of the country. And, actually, my constituency—some of it is a very pleasant, popular, middle-class town in Penarth, but actually, the southern Cardiff part of my constituency is actually pretty poor. If it was a local authority, it would be poorer than Merthyr, but bigger. So, the challenge, though, is that actually, for some of those people, even though they're physically close to a range of the assets that you refer to, in practical terms, it's a challenge. When we look at the individual parties within the portfolio, those are things that I think Dawn can address with her team, about how that then leads to what we've chosen in the programme for government to keep moving and how that does provide real access to facilities in communities, because I recognise the point that you're making.

Shall we bring the Deputy Minister in then?

Yes, on that specific—

Sorry—

I wanted to challenge the Minister, actually, on his answer, if I could. I don't disagree with the Minister's response. I recognise that there are parts of the Cardiff South and Penarth constituency that have very, very serious levels of poverty; I don't pretend that that isn't the situation. But my question wasn't about that and it wasn't about local government, and it wasn't about health, and it wasn't about the other things; it was about access to facilities. And what we all know is that the city of Cardiff provides a far higher level of sporting and cultural facilities than a community such as the communities I represent or, in fact, the Deputy Minister represents. So, I was wondering—and this is a question for the Minister rather than the Deputy Minister—how does he wish to see the equality element of budget process address that access-to-facilities question?

Well, the facilities in this area, though, is an area that the Deputy Minister takes a lead on—the overall resources available, and then, how they're deployed across the country to deal with practical access for different communities. And it goes, not just in this portfolio, but it's something that Lynne Neagle will be especially interested in—

Yes, yes, I get that.

—with her brief on public health, to make sure that there's practical access—. And, actually, with respect, again, if you lived in east Cardiff, even though, geographically, you're close to a range of facilities within Cardiff, actually, our practical challenge in getting access for people is not necessarily straightforward. But it's why we have a programme of investment: the capital investment that we're making; the investment we're making alongside governing bodies and the way that we're supporting local government, because a lot of what you were talking about would be local government-sponsored and run as well. So, the overall prioritisation in those areas is about protecting a range of those assets to provide practical access to communities across the country. So, I'm not trying to disagree and say that there isn't a challenge for us to address, but it is about the level of the detail in those choices that the Deputy Minister and other Ministers will make, because it actually matters to the whole-Government priorities that we set out at the outset.

But may I expand on that please, Minister? Obviously, you referenced in terms of prioritising health and so on, but we've also been outlining, in terms of sport and culture, the benefits in terms of the prevention agenda as well and especially with issues like mental health. Have there been discussions with colleagues around the health budget in particular around how that works in terms of both culture and sport, specifically?

Yes. We have regular conversations about the whole-Government works together. I had a meeting with the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on a range of areas that go across our two portfolios, recognising—[Inaudible.] The challenge, though, is that, when you're setting all of these different priorities, everyone can make a case about how their area of activity adds to a broader preventative agenda and adds to a broader public health approach, and those are fair cases to make. You still, though, have to make choices within the budget available. Every good positive step we would want to take you can't take, because you just don't have the elastic to stretch that far. In the Chamber, we'll talk about all the things about treating people in emergency care, about people waiting for care, about general practice, and there's everything else as well.

Thank you, Minister. If I may bring the Deputy Minister in now.

Thank you, Chair. I think that is an important point. I think the Minister has answered Alun Davies's point around the prioritisation. The cross-departmental and cross-portfolio work that is going on is quite significant and is important to this preventative agenda. We've been saying for a long time that the preventative benefits of sport and culture are there for all to see. It's not just a sport and culture budget issue. This is an issue for many other departments.

We've got budget allocations, obviously, from my budget and from my portfolio. We've seen budget support from health through the transformation fund. We saw £0.5 million this year from the transformation fund, just as an example, to deliver the Fit Fans pilot between 2022 and 2024, running across six main football teams. That's a pilot that will be reviewed to see whether that has made a significant difference. That's come from the health budget but using sport and working with the FAW.

Obviously, the Minister's referred to local authority budgets. One of the things that the local authorities are responsible for and is their responsibility and their priority is around how they deliver culture and sport within their local authority areas and how that fits into their health and well-being agenda, as well as the health and well-being agenda of the Welsh Government. So, there's a local authority input to that, there's an education—

If I may, Deputy Minister, just on that point specifically, obviously, a number of those services are non-statutory services. How concerned are you about the impact we may see across Wales in terms of culture and sport because those elements are non-statutory? What considerations have been given in terms of budget planning in terms of those challenges? Because obviously, as you've rightly outlined, these are crucial services in our communities, but obviously non-statutory. So, I'm just interested in your view there.

They are non-statutory, but we still have an expectation around what a local authority needs to do to deliver on its well-being goals and on the well-being goals of the Welsh Government. That is reflected in the priorities that the Minister set out at the beginning. We have prioritised local government and health in terms of our budget allocations, and all local authorities have seen a much better than expected allocation this year. Certainly, in my area, the local authorities had not budgeted for anything like the settlement that they are receiving. So, it then becomes a decision for those local authorities about how they are going to prioritise issues over and above those statutory services.

Even within that, I think it is worth setting out that we have, for non-statutory services, allocated considerable amounts extra in a number of areas. Those are set out in the budget papers in the evidence brief that you had from us. Again, it goes across portfolios. We've talked about—. Well, I hadn't got to talking about the amount of money that's been allocated, for instance, to community-focused schools and the £24.5 million that's been put into the education budget around the sustainable communities for learning programme and so on. Those are non-statutory services that are being funded through other budget allocations as well as just from the culture budget allocations.

Thank you. If I just may ask one more question before we move on to another Member. Has there been, or are there plans to conduct, an assessment of the number of cultural and sporting venues that may be forced to close because of the economic situation?

In terms of assessments, my officials met with the chief leisure officers of Wales at the end of last year, and that was after the local government settlement had been published. From that, we have been made aware that there are no imminent threats because of the better than anticipated situation that I just referred to. We've seen some examples already, for instance, of local authorities that had been planning on taking particular actions, but they have rowed back from those having seen their budget allocation—Powys County Council being one case in point. They were going to close their swimming pools, and decided in light of their budget allocation that they are not now going to do that. So, we are not aware of any imminent threats to facilities, but we are very conscious and very aware of the very real threat to the leisure sector, particularly swimming pools. The fact that swimming pools have been left out of the UK Government's energy bill discount scheme, I think, is hugely important. I am having, immediately after this meeting, which is why I do have to leave at 11:00, a meeting with Swim Wales to discuss this very issue. This is a critical issue for some of these organisations where we have to try to bring pressure on the UK Government as well to include swimming pools and leisure facilities into that energy discount scheme, because if we don't do that, then I think that there is the danger of—

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Certainly, we have had evidence as a committee that supports that view, and we all know its importance. But, obviously, there are also cultural venues. As a committee, we've received correspondence about the Museum of Cardiff, formerly known as Cardiff Story, for instance, public libraries as well, which are being looked at for closure or scaling back and being volunteer led. So, can you perhaps comment on the cultural aspect specifically?

Yes, sure. We have also made additional provision for areas within the cultural sector. Again, that's all set out in the evidence that we presented to you. We have provided £3.7 million in the financial year 2022-23 to the National Library of Wales, National Museum Wales—

If I may stop you—apologies. I meant specifically around local authority and non-statutory provisions rather than the national organisations. I believe my colleague Hefin David will be picking up specifically on national organisations shortly.

There has been significant support put in in terms of local museums. My officials meet with the local museum sector on a regular basis. At this point, it might be worth me asking one of my officials to give a little bit more detail about the work that has been done there and the additional support that we've put in. I don't know whether Nicky or Jason want to comment on that.

Shall I come in, Chair? Is that okay? Thanks, Chair. I think on that question, similar to what the Minister said on the leisure side, we work really closely with local government around the non-statutory services as well. As the Minister outlined, we have provided additional support for that sector in this budget round. But we keep our ear close to the ground on this, and where we do hear of institutions or smaller organisations that are at risk, we do try our very best to work with the local authority and the relevant governing body, arm's-length body, to try to do everything that we can to sort that. Obviously, the whole sector is nervous at the moment—everybody is, with the cost increases. But, fortunately, so far, we've been able to keep things on a relatively even keel. We've got to watch this space really closely, and we always will do, but so far the support that we've been able to provide has kept these organisations going, which is a good thing. But we've got to keep a close eye on this.

Thank you. If I can move on to Hefin David now for questioning. Thank you.

I'll try to be focused in the question I want to ask first of all on culture and the arts. With regard to the issues that you raised, Deputy Minister, about the various organisations, how is the budget being developed in order to develop towards a cultural strategy, an overall strategy with all of this, and are we likely to see sight of such a thing as a result of the current budget? And how will that take into account the impacts of the pandemic and cost-of-living pressures on culture?

Of course, the cultural strategy is part of the co-operation agreement, and so there is a protected budget around the cultural strategy. The work on that is ongoing. We have now appointed a commission partner to do the engagement work around the cultural strategy for us. We have appointed an oversight board, and all of that work is ongoing.

We haven't yet spent all the money associated with the cultural strategy; we have spent money on the development of the cultural strategy, and I'm setting up the oversight panel and so on, and bringing in the commissioning body to do this work for us. But most of the allocation around the cultural strategy is going to be determined by what the cultural strategy actually produces for us, and what it says our priorities are, and what we need to do. Again, I'm going to look to Nicky to give some updated information on that, because I think we're looking for an initial report in March of this year, from the one-to-one discussions that are going to be going on with our various stakeholders, with a view to that strategy hopefully being developed by the end of 2023. But Nicky, correct me if I'm wrong on that timeline.

No, Minister, that's the timeline that we're working to. As you said, the vast majority of the funding is in 2024-25, when the priorities of the strategy will have been identified. However, we have already allocated an amount of funding to particularly the national cultural bodies to enable them to support delivery and also for their viability as part of that. But the timeline the Minister mentioned is what we're working to.

Thank you very much. Can I ask, Heledd, about the arts council as well?

Yes, please.

The arts council called for an additional £5 million to £10 million specifically to mitigate the impact of the increasing costs across the arts sector. Do you agree with that assessment of the scale of need, and what will be the impact of allocating significantly less, should you not agree with that?

I think at the outset what I would say is that I was very concerned when I saw that report, and saw what the arts council were saying in terms of that potential shortfall that they could see across the sector. Since that report, what I am pleased to say is that we have allocated an additional £1 million in support to the arts sector via the Arts Council of Wales. That was £0.5 million in 2022-23 and another £0.5 million in 2023-24, and that's part of the Welsh Government's wider package of support for the culture and sports sector in Wales.

In addition to that—and I think this is very important—what the Arts Council of Wales have told us is that their National Lottery funding has performed much better than they had expected, and so that means that they're able to direct additional funding to cost-of-living pressures faced by the sector that they hadn't anticipated being able to do previously. So, they're currently exploring options to target that funding in the most effective way that they can. Additionally, £3.8 million has been allocated to the Arts Council of Wales via the support to the culture strategy, which we just referred to, under the co-operation agreement.

I think it's fair to say, though, that due to the budget constraints and the issues that were raised by the Minister at the outset of the session, an ask of £5 million to £10 million from the Welsh Government is not feasible. It's not a feasible level of support that we can put in at this stage. Again, I would reiterate and repeat that the main policy levers to deal with these particular issues, these particular pressures being faced by all of our sectors, are not with the Welsh Government; they are with the UK Gorvenment, and we will continue to press the UK Government to do all it can to try to ensure that these organisations are supported effectively through this most difficult period.

Hefin, do you have any further questions? No, you're happy to move on. If I can bring in Alun Davies.

The Minister's tempting me to go down a little rabbit hole there in terms of funding; I won't be tempted this morning. I'm interested in continuing the conversation we started with the Minister earlier about relative spend across Wales, because one of the lessons that I think we've all learned over the last decade or so is if Cardiff gets a cold, Blaenau Gwent gets pneumonia in terms of spending. Government spending is more important in places that you represent, Deputy Minister, and I represent, because there is less private investment. So, how is the Government looking at protecting the facilities available to people that we both represent in the Heads of the Valleys, where the cost-of-living pressures, the inflation pressures, the austerity pressures are all far, far greater?

Again, I think that is a very fair challenge, and it's something that we have sought to address through the programme for government, and through our remit letters to our cultural and sporting bodies that we're responsible for—

Okay, well, tell me, then, how does the remit letter to Sport Wales reflect the challenge I've just made to you?

Okay, so, the remit letter to Sport Wales talks about improving community facilities, improving health and well-being through physical activity in our most deprived areas. It also talks about equality, inclusion, diversity—all of the things that we know need to be addressed as part of addressing the issue that you raise. All of that—and you've had a copy of the remit letter—

Yes, I've read it.

So, you've had a copy of the remit letter that I sent to Sport Wales, and that is very clear. I will be holding Sport Wales to account on their spend and how they allocate their funding to achieve those objectives, as you will hold me to account as, ultimately, being responsible for that. So, there is a very clear direction not just to Sport Wales, but to all our cultural organisations—that we have to address the issue of inclusion and participation, of equality and diversity in all its forms. I have these conversations with our cultural bodies as well as I do with the sport bodies. So, none of the organisations that I am responsible for can be in any doubt about what our objectives are for this, and the level of spend in those areas I expect to see reflecting our priorities through our programme for government.

What I would say in terms of relative spend, Alun, is if you look at some of the grants that are being made available via Sport Wales—and I'm talking about things like the Be Active grant—the vast majorities of those grants have gone into organisations that operate in areas of significant deprivation, and those are areas like your constituency and mine. I'm absolutely delighted to see that, of the Be Active fund, the biggest amount of grant aid that was provided was actually in Merthyr Tydfil, through the Be Active fund. So, there is a very clear direction—[Laughter.]—about where that money is spent—

It does help having a Minister, doesn't it? You've been very clear there, and what I take, and correct me if I'm wrong, is a very clear directive to all of the bodies you're responsible for from your remit letters that you regard deprivation as an indicator of spend and you would expect to see greater relative spend to address those issues. Correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, Minister.

But can we move on, as well, to the contemporary art gallery? Now, this is something you and I have discussed in private on a number of occasions. You know that I'm not wholly convinced by the strategy as it currently stands. So, perhaps it would be useful for us, on the record this morning, to understand where you are and how you see the strategy, which I've got misgivings about, progressing, given the current spend envelope.

So, the strategy and the development of the national contemporary art gallery goes right back to about 2018 in fact, so it's been knocking around for some considerable time, but it was a programme for government commitment and it is part of the co-operation agreement that we proceed with a national contemporary art gallery that is based on a dispersed model, and we have partners that are working towards that aim. So, the national library, the national museum and Arts Council of Wales are all working together to deliver this dispersed model of a national contemporary art gallery. We've identified a number of sites across Wales that will be able to house some of these contemporary collections.

The significant change from the original proposal of a dispersed model was that we introduce a number of anchor sites into the game, if you like. So, we don't yet have a final list of potential anchor sites, but we're looking to have a number of anchor sites that will be located in strategic parts of Wales so that all parts of Wales will be able to benefit from the anchor as well as the dispersed model site. Again, I can ask Nicky to give far more information on that.

No, we don't need any—

No, I think we're getting away from budget at the moment.

Yes, the question was how the financial envelope affects the strategy as you've described. We understand what the strategy is and, I think, Chair, it would be useful for us to have a couple of hours on this strategy at some point as a committee.

Yes.

I'm well aware of the issues around that. So, the budget for the contemporary art gallery has not been impacted on by any of the things that we've talked about previously, and the Minister—

So, you expect to stick to the timetable as it already has been set, although changes have been made.

We are hopeful that we will be in a position to be making progress on the national contemporary art gallery by the end of this year—

That's not the question, Minister. 'Being hopeful by the end of this year' isn't the answer I was looking for. The strategy, as it stands, is it affected by the financial climate? You seemed to be edging towards saying 'no'.

No, it's not—

Right, that's all we need to know.

Thank you.

It is not about the finances. So, any potential delays around the national contemporary art gallery are not linked to finances. They're linked to the production of the business case and to practical aspects.

Thank you.

That's all we needed to know.

Thank you. May I ask one question? Just in terms of national organisations, we’ve seen, from the allocations here, that even though there has been perhaps a net increase, the core revenue is consistently less. Given that we know that, for a number of national organisations, such as the national library and so on, a lot of their spending from that revenue funding is on staffing costs. So, have you been able to progress at all in terms of the pay remit of how that will also be supported, because, obviously, we need to ensure fair wages for everybody working in our national institutions. But we've heard very clear indications from both the national library and national museum of Wales, et cetera, that unless the funding was there for the pay remit, that, actually, there will be a decrease in terms of services they're able to provide, which is then, obviously, at odds in terms of the remit letters and being able to do more across Wales.

So, we've signed off the pay remit for all of our arm’s-length bodies, sponsored bodies. All of them have received additional funding from Welsh Government to meet their pay awards for this year. We ensured that they had additional funding from the original allocation so that they were able to make pay offers in line with civil service pay offers, and that has always been our objective—that our arm’s-length bodies be treated no less favourably than directly employed civil service staff. So, that has happened, and all of our sponsored bodies have received additional funding from us to meet those objectives and to meet those requirements of them.

Thank you. Can I bring Tom Giffard in now, please?

Thanks. Deputy Minister, there's a line in the draft budget paper that says,

'Sport can be the nation’s most effective preventative health tool but greater cross-sector prioritisation is needed'.

It's a lovely line, but it was in last year's draft budget as well. That suggests to me it wasn't done last year. Why should this year be any different?

I don't accept that, Tom. I think the fact that it was in last year's and it's in this year's just means that it's still as important as it was last year. And I—

Okay. Well, what progress have we made since last year?

And I would expect it will be in next year's as well.

Okay.

Because it will continue to be very important that sport is the most effective preventative health tool. That won't happen in a year.

So, what progress have you seen since last year on that?

Well, I started to answer this in response to a question from Heledd Fychan earlier on about the amount of cross-departmental work that is going on in this area—in health, through the transformation fund, through our school budgets, through the new curriculum, and how we are introducing sport into the curriculum and making it a core of what we're trying to do, and the fact that we're going to be spending money again through the education budget on community-focused schools so that our facilities will be available in communities and so on. It's through the communities facilities grant—that's the social justice budget head—and local authorities we've talked about. I think it is important to keep saying that the delivery of sport, and all of its objectives, is not solely the responsibility of Welsh Government or my budget. It is a responsibility of a number of public sector bodies, including local authorities and including third sector organisations. And we are funding in a number of those areas, and in a number of Welsh Government departments, and local authorities, to achieve that objective.

So, the preventative aspect of it is still there and it's still very clear. It's still something we have more work to do on. It is still something we're prioritising, and I would expect to see this in next year's budget paper as well, Tom.

Okay. I fully accept what you said about not all of sport would necessarily be something that comes under your portfolio and actually exists in other departments; I accept all of that. What oversight do you have of the ongoing work that might not necessarily sit within your department, and how do you ensure that that meets other sporting goals that you perhaps have and that do sit within your department? How do you ensure that synergy?

Well, we ensure that through Cabinet, because each of us has objectives in Government that we have to deliver. And we are accountable to the Cabinet, to the First Minister, for ensuring that our programme for government commitments are achieved. We all have regular bilateral meetings with the First Minister, where he will talk to us about the progress in our portfolio areas and so on. So, there is regular discussion, there is regular update, there is regular progress with the bodies that each of us as Ministers are responsible for, and across Government with each of the Ministers, so that we talk to each other on that cross-Government basis.

But you understand there's a difference between progress reports at Cabinet and an ongoing assessment to ensure that things that don't sit within your portfolio are meeting the needs that perhaps do exist in your portfolio. That is a very different thing from updates at Cabinet. Do you see that?

Oh, yes, but what I'm saying, Tom, is that that process that I've just referred to is part of the ongoing assessment, because we have to produce the annual report every year on our progress in Government, and what we have achieved and what we've not achieved. And we are answerable to the Senedd if we don't achieve. But there is an ongoing assessment across all portfolio—that we are seeking to achieve everything that is set out in our programme for government, some of which are stand-alone things within portfolios, others of which are cross-departmental.

Thank you, and thank you, Tom. Can we move on to Carolyn Thomas, please? I'm conscious we've got six minutes to go.

Okay. Thank you. Can I just ask why the national botanic garden has had a budget reduction? It's the only institution to have that. I notice that Cadw has had a budget increase, and it was mentioned to me by somebody that Cadw seems to have quite a healthy budget still to spend. Also, really, about the scrutiny of Cadw and Creative Wales, who scrutinises them? So, everything lumped together there.

Yes. Okay, let me start with the national botanic garden. So, I'm quite clear that the national botanic garden has been able to absorb its reduction. They've had a 1.1 per cent reduction, which is the same as everybody else across my portfolio. That amounted to a very modest cut—[Inaudible.]—in pounds to its discretionary grant. I think, you know, we need to be very clear that the National Botanic Garden of Wales is not a Welsh Government sponsored body, so we have different responsibilities and liabilities around all of that, but their capital grant has been maintained at £200,000. They've had an additional £1 million provided to enable them to meet their statutory responsibilities under the—[Inaudible.] In the last financial year, we were also able to provide capital to pay off a long-standing loan that they had to Carmarthenshire council, and that was in excess of £1 million, and we paid that off. We did that on behalf of the national botanic garden, to enable them to move forward on a more sound financial footing, and we've had every indication that that is the case.

In terms of Cadw and Creative Wales, I can assure you that Cadw isn't awash with money. They went through a very—[Inaudible.]

You're cutting out, Minister. Sorry, we've got you back now. Your sound is cutting out a bit, just for you to be aware, but we can follow you.

Okay. You got everything I was saying there about the botanic garden—

Yes.

Yes. I can still hear you.

Okay. On Cadw, then, I was just saying that they're not awash with money, Cadw. Certainly, through the pandemic, they had an extremely difficult time. Most of the Cadw sites were closed and they lost a considerable amount of income, so they are kind of playing catch-up on that at the moment, but we are pleased to see that visitor numbers are returning and that is putting Cadw in a healthier position.

In terms of scrutiny—. Oh, and I should say that Cadw do have a significant capital budget, because we have a significant number of historical monuments that clearly have to be maintained and improved. We've seen significant capital investment in both Caerphilly and Caernarfon castle over the last couple of years. Caernarfon castle is going to be opening formally in March—

Thank you.

Hefin will be aware of what's happening in Caerphilly.

In terms of scrutiny, I think it's important just to say that Cadw and Creative Wales are both internal Welsh Government agencies, but they have independently appointed boards—boards that are independent. So, they oversee and scrutinise the work of Cadw and of Creative Wales, and also of course they are responsible to me and I am subject to scrutiny. So, that's the line of scrutiny.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. Carolyn, do you have a quick question that would warrant a quick response?

No, that's fine. Yes, I saw that there was a reduction in capital from about £1.2 million to £200,000 in the report, so you've explained what that was for the national botanic garden as well, so thank you.

Thank you very much. Can I ask one very quick question, please, Deputy Minister? When we've received evidence from the National Library of Wales, they mentioned that there was a very serious risk to the collections, which they deemed to be totally unacceptable without additional funding. Are you concerned about our national collections at both the national library and National Museum Wales, in light of the budget pressures?

We are working with the national library to get a handle on what all the issues are, but we have put additional support in—again, aware of the impact of increasing costs on the national library. We did put in an additional £650,000 in 2022-23, to help address the increased cost of utilities and cost-of-living pressures, and a further £0.5 million has been given to them to pay for a new fire system, to ensure the safety of their collections.

And in relation to the 2023-24 budget, they will see an increase in their grant in aid funding, and so for the next two financial years, we've made available time-limited and ring-fenced funding to support the additional cost-of-living pressures again. That's £447,000 last year; £678,000 next year; and so on, and similar amounts for dealing with utilities. So, there will be further additional funding to support—[Inaudible.]—priorities, including financial sustainability, over the next two years. We are very well aware of the pressures and the issues facing the national library and we are seeking to address it. I don't know whether Nicky wants to add any more to that, but I'm conscious of time.

Yes. I'm conscious that you have told us that you're not able to stay post 11 a.m., Deputy Minister.

I've got about five minutes. I can give you an extra five minutes.

If we're content, and Minister for Economy, are you content for an additional five minutes? Okay, great. Can we bring in Dr Nicky Guy, then, please?

Yes, thanks, Heledd. So, we're working with both of the organisations to understand their pressures. Obviously, they have been, with their historic estate, hit very, very hard by the inflationary pressures. Specifically around the library, in 2024-25, we have allocated an additional £1.5 million, which is currently sitting in 6170 BEL, towards their collections' storage. That will be transferred over to the library, but it is a ring-fenced grant.

Likewise, there are other capital projects, particularly around decarbonisation and digitisation, which are very much focused on protecting the national library's collection. And they're a key partner within the contemporary art gallery project, so, again, the digitisation of their collection is being taken forward through some funding that's specified for that. So, we are working with them, but there is additional funding specifically for collection storage and collections management, given that the library of course, by its very nature, the size of its collection increases on a daily basis and some of the historic collection needs to be maintained in very, very specific conditions.

Thank you. That's very helpful. And, obviously, that can take funding as well, in terms of the safety of collections. So, it's good to have that reassurance. If I may, perhaps, return to the Deputy Minister, obviously, we haven't been able to cover every element, but we have been able to cover a number of questions. Can I ask, we will have some additional points of clarity, so would both the Minister and the Deputy Minister be happy for us to perhaps ask for some additional clarification? I'm just concerned we haven't really been able to delve into Creative Wales and some of the issues. Would that be possible?

Yes.

Great. Thank you very much. Carolyn.

Sorry. The Deputy Minister said that she has a meeting with Swim Wales, and I'm really concerned because we did hear that, of children in key stage 2, only 50 per cent could swim at the end of that. We heard about transport issues. So, swimming baths are a real concern. So, could we ask for feedback as well from that? That would be really good.

Yes. Would that be okay, Deputy Minister?

Yes, absolutely. I'm happy to provide feedback once I've met with Swim Wales. I'm happy to do that.

Thank you.

Many thanks. Does anybody else on the committee have any questions? Tom, if I may bring you in.

Before we close this part of the meeting, can I just state my dissatisfaction with the connection issues that we've had? I think we've had multiple interruptions throughout, from both the Deputy Minister and the Minister, and I've got misgivings about doing this again virtually. I just wanted to say that for the record.

Thank you. Thank you, Tom, for that. Rather than start on another area and not be able to do it justice, can I thank all our witnesses today? Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister, and your officials, for joining us. We're very grateful, and for the papers in advance as well. We understand the financial pressures, particularly in terms of non-statutory services, and we would appreciate it if you could please keep us informed as a committee in terms of that wider picture nationally as well. But thank you very much for your time this morning.

Can I say, Chair, that if there are areas that you wanted to cover today that you felt that you haven't, I am more than happy to write to you with further information on any areas that you feel that you haven't been able to cover in committee this morning?

We're very grateful for that. So, thank you very much, all. We will be taking a short break as a committee now and reconvening for our next session at 11:10. So, we'll be going private for five minutes.

Good morning and welcome back to the meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee for our scrutiny session of the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2023-24, and we have an evidence session with the Minister for Education and Welsh Language. May I welcome you, Minister, to the committee? Good morning. May I ask your officials to introduce themselves for the record, please?

Good morning. Owain Lloyd—I am director for Welsh language and education in the Welsh Government.

Bethan Webb, deputy director 'Cymraeg 2050' within the Welsh Government.

Thank you very much and welcome to the three of you. If I may start, please: clearly, we have a very challenging financial settlement for all sorts of reasons. Could you please outline any prioritisation exercise you've undertaken when developing this draft budget?

Of course, it has been a very challenging budget. You will have heard from other Ministers that this is perhaps the most difficult budget in the era of devolution because of pressures from inflation and the fact that the settlement from Westminster hasn't been sufficient even to cope with the pressures on current spending, never mind expanding spend. So, in that context, I think that maintaining the funding level was challenging enough in and of itself, never mind increasing the level of the budget.

As you know, the budget has increased this year and the intention is that it will be increased again the following year. So, that's very important indeed. There are some important examples in the budget where we have made additions that will have a very real impact, for example, in late immersion. We've been able to increase the budget there—that's going to have an impact across Wales and provide equal access to Welsh-medium education. And there are a number of other areas, including areas within the co-operation agreement.

So, the priority for me, as education Minister, is to ensure that we do everything that we can to increase the use of the Welsh language. Increasing the number of speakers is of course important and central to reaching the target of 'Cymraeg 2050', but you will see in the budget that most of it, or the largest element of the budget, is focused on increasing and supporting further use of the Welsh language. So, that's the budget expenditure line that has the greatest amount of funding and that's very deliberate.

Of course, there are other parts of the Welsh Government budget that we will draw on to support the Welsh language policy area, but from my perspective, usage is the most important thing.,

Thank you, Minister. Clearly, we have had, in this last year, the figures in terms of the census. Clearly, you've outlined the further work that's required in terms of analysing and understanding why there are differences. But, you mentioned the use of the language, obviously, and you've also referred to the target of increasing the numbers, so do you feel, therefore, that some of the plans have been restricted because of the financial challenges and the pressures on the budget, and that you've had to re-prioritise in terms of usage, or are you continuing with that focus in terms of the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050?

Well, we're not changing the target, certainly. The census figures have shown a reduction. And as I've mentioned in many other contexts, that's a disappointment to us, but it's very important to see the broader context and that other sources of information do show progress. So, outside the budget discussions, we need to understand that data and understand the context in which it exists.

In terms of the impact of the census on this budget, of course, the census results were only released about a week before the budget was published. We don't get any access to those figures beforehand; we receive them at the same time as the public. And we don't have all the figures; there is more data to be published this month or next, which will be an important part of our analysis. So, we will look at that over coming months. And then, I think the impact of those figures will be felt in the next budget. But at the end of the day, the long-term priority is to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers.

By the way, I mentioned earlier the importance of language use, the census tells us nothing about language use, so we need to disconnect those two things in terms of how you structure the budget. We have other information sources telling us how many people are using the Welsh language. And I think that's included in the written evidence provided. So, those two things are very different indeed.

Thank you very much. I know that Tom Giffard will want to delve further on this. For those who are joining us virtually, we do have a school that's joined us in the public gallery, so welcome to our committee as well. It's very good to see people returning to the Senedd estate as well. If I could turn to Tom Giffard.

Thank you. Going back to the point that we were talking about a moment ago about the census, you said that you didn't have all that data in as it stands, and obviously, more and more data is coming in all the time. What allowances have you made in that budget, if any, for a change in that data? So, as the picture changes, have you got flexibility to be able to change your priority in terms of where you're spending the money?

During the year—is that what you mean?

Yes.

Well, we need to look at the data in its context, so, I don't think that we will be making decisions in the next months in light of that. It's important to bear that in mind.

One of the things that was a decision that I as Minister was required to make was that if you look at all of the things that we've been doing over the past 12 months, for example, many of those interventions could have been delayed until the census results, before investing in them. But my view was that, whatever the census showed us, even if it showed progress, we'd still need to have done those things that we have done. So, you would have seen that pattern in the period before the census, too.

One thing I would say is, if you were to ask about the bigger picture, 'What are the main takeouts for the census?' it's subject to looking at the data in more detail, of course, but I do think that we have more to do in the area of investing, in ensuring that the experiences of children and young people in the English-medium education system as they learn Welsh is improved. But as it happens, that budget is increasing in this year in any case, because we do need to ensure that we raise the skill level of the workforce in order to provide better in that part of the sector. So, there were already plans in place to do that.

And one of the things that was quite clear, I thought, was that out-of-school Welsh use wasn't the strongest, it probably would be fair to say, so, how does this budget prioritise 'out of a learning setting', if you like, Welsh use?

Where does that data come from?

Sorry, it wasn't in the census, but it's clear that this is a problem.

Well, more needs to be done in that regard, but as I said at the outset, if you look at where the emphasis of the budget is, the part focused on usage is the largest element of that budget—some £22 million. And that includes many things in the context that you talk about—usage outside of the school gates, for example, it includes a budget for teaching Welsh to young people between 18 and 25, so that's been a policy development. So, that's the main emphasis in terms of the largest element of the budget.

I would also say, by the way, that if you look at the Welsh in education element, I've briefly mentioned immersion, well, much of that budget is used to increase capacity within the system, to provide access to Welsh-medium education rather than pay for the education itself, and ensure that people have equal access. Also, if you look at the smallest element of the budget, of three parts, namely funding for the commissioner, then an element of that, too, is about working in partnership with us and focusing on promoting usage. So, there are elements of that in all parts of the budget.

One final one, you're clearly someone who cares about the Welsh language, and, obviously, education is also in your portfolio, but you'll also understand that, to truly raise the standards of the Welsh language, it needs to be a cross-Government priority across a number of portfolio areas. How are you ensuring that, not only yourself, but all the other Ministers and all of the other departments are treating Welsh with exactly the same passion and energy that you would?

Thank you for that. In terms of accountability, I am here today, of course, answering your questions, but not one Minister for the Welsh language can succeed in making the level of progress needed without having collaboration across Government as a whole. What's been happening over the last few months is that the Cabinet now has a discussion on Welsh policy and how that is mainstreamed through all policy areas in general every term, and, as a result of one of those meetings, has had a successful series of meetings with every other Minister, looking at their experience of the Welsh language, themselves, but also, what more can do to collaborate with their departments to mainstream the Welsh language, not as a tick box element when advice comes along to say, 'Yes, we have considered this', but that we really address the impact on the Welsh language in terms of decisions—some positive, some negative—in terms of every policy decision. So, that discussion is happening. It has been ongoing for a while, but I feel that that is happening now with more of a focus.

If you look across the budget in general, you've had evidence this morning from the Minister for Economy and the Minister for culture. A number of the things that they're investing in have an impact on the Welsh language—the national library, the book council, in the fields of health and climate change—investment in each of those areas is having an impact on the Welsh language.

Two things I would say, if I may, just to provide you with context, you have a choice, if you like, or maybe some tension at one level. If you're talking about funding the Welsh language specifically, as a specific programme to fund the Welsh language, there is some risk culturally that people will then think, 'That's the bit that deals with the Welsh language'. So, there's a need to strike a balance there and to keep that balance there. You need to do both.

Also, when you look at the budget, you need to look at the impact of the budget on the Welsh language as a whole. There will be positive elements and some may not be as positive; that's natural. Work is happening at the moment to improve understanding of the impact on the Welsh language in policy areas and when that will have moved forward, I think we'll have a clearer picture across the whole budget of the net effect, if you like.

Diolch.

Thank you. May I ask you, Minister, we heard evidence this morning in terms of cultural and sporting elements, specifically, now you're talking about the emphasis in your budget on language use, et cetera, do you have a concern—? One of the things that emerged from the evidence is that, clearly, local authorities and non-statutory services can play a central role in terms of the WESPs, particularly in terms of usage outside of the classroom, if we think about sporting opportunities through the medium of the Welsh language, for example? Do you have concerns, because of the cuts that we're seeing in local authorities, that that may have an impact on usage? Or is that part of your thinking with your emphasis on usage, that there is a risk to those non-statutory services that are clearly crucially important in terms of language usage?

That's a very fair question, because, of course, there are pressures on local authorities and non-statutory issues are more vulnerable in that context; that's something we understand. I would say that, if you look at where we use grants, that has—. For example, one of the organisations that local authorities can work with in order to ensure that the good work that they're doing in their WESPs also has an impact in the community is the relationship with the Urdd, which is doing fantastic work in relation to Welsh language and culture, but also in sport—you mentioned that—and apprenticeships, so, a wide variety of things. So, the funding that we allocate to them is intentional to increase the Urdd's capacity to work with other bodies. That's why a grant scheme is important, so that we can fund these bodies directly, if you like, so that they can then work with councils. But the risk that you're talking about is a real one, certainly.

Thank you, Minister. If I could ask specifically in terms of Mudiad Meithrin, do you believe that the funding provided to them to expand and develop Welsh-medium early years capacity is having a sufficient impact on the availability and access across Wales?

Whatever the Welsh word is for 'rolling programme', they have that. So, all the work hasn't been completed. So, of course, there will be areas of Wales where there isn't sufficient provision currently. But, the scheme that Mudiad Meithrin has to increase the level of provision is on target—actually, it's beyond the target in some areas. The plan is, over the term of this Senedd, to open 60 new settings, along with the 43 that were opened in the first three-year period. They're on track to complete that. That's a run rate of some 12 new settings a year, but on more than one year, that has increased at a quicker pace than that. So, they're on track to do that, so, I am confident that provision is going to be established. But, it does takes time for them to open, and one of the challenges that is a constraint on that, of course, is workforce. So, we're also investing in supporting Mudiad Meithrin with encouraging people into the sector, but also to gain qualifications through the medium of Welsh.

And that investment has been safeguarded, therefore, in the draft budget.

Yes.

Thank you very much. May I move on to Alun Davies, please?

Thank you. I want to continue the conversation on education. I like the way you speak, Minister, and your tone, and I do like some of what you've said in terms of how you see the Welsh language prospering and developing for the future. One of the things that I want to see—and I think we all want to see this—is more opportunities for children to be educated through the medium of Welsh—not just to learn Welsh, but to have their education through the medium of Welsh. In the current financial context, what I hear from councils is that there is sufficient funding coming from Welsh Government to create new Welsh-medium schools, but there isn't enough in the budget to continue to fund some Welsh-medium schools where new schools are opened. How would you respond to that?

One of the challenges of opening a new Welsh language school is that, in some communities, you go faster than the demand. That's what we want to do; we want to help create the demand. There's a revenue risk as a result of that, isn't there? What you see, perhaps, are decisions to develop schools, but maybe you could develop larger ones if you could take more of a risk on the revenue. We have been able to come to an agreement on elements of that with authorities. Perhaps I'll ask Owain to say a little bit more about how we do that. But, in parts of Wales—this is happening in north Wales in some communities—we have been able to work with local authorities to solve some of those challenges. Do you want to talk about that?

Yes. Certainly, it's important as part of the conversations that the Minister has at a ministerial level, and as officials, we also have discussions with local authorities on their WESPs. That's not only an issue of discussing capital, but also an issue of revenue and how they plan not just for Welsh-medium schools but also English-medium schools in the area is an important part of that. We know that, in some parts of Wales over the next few years, there's going to be a fall in pupil numbers. So, it is crucial that local authorities are thinking about that and forward planning—

But do you see a responsibility for Welsh Government to support authorities where there are problems, or where it's difficult financially—not just in terms of capital, funding the building of new schools, but then, as you say, Mr Lloyd, the revenue funding in the future?

Well, there's no specific revenue pot for that. As you know—

Yes, and that's the point I'm making.

It comes through the RSG as part of the local government settlement. So—

So, there's no additional element to develop Welsh-medium education, is there?

No, but it does have to be a key part of their plans—

So, it's a matter for local authorities.

And part of their planning for education in general.

And my point is that the Government has no intention of offering any additional support to local authorities during the next few years.

Well, in terms of revenue, that's settled through the RSG. But, in looking at the strategic plans, all of these discussions are related to the issue of how much provision you can make. We intend to open 23 new primary schools, for example. But one of the things that's important to bear in mind here too is that we're not going to be able to reach our target just through having new Welsh-medium schools; moving schools along the continuum is really important.

Yes, I agree. I was asking a specific question—

I know, but the answer—. What I'm saying is that that's part of the picture.

Okay.

I know that Carolyn just wanted to come in quickly on that.

Yes, just regarding the development of Welsh-medium schools, Welsh-medium education, I understand there is a shortage of Welsh language teachers already. Have you any thoughts of incentives or bursaries for people who might be going into teaching to go into Welsh-medium education, or do that little bit of extra work to be confident in studying in Welsh—an incentive like we do have for nurses, nursing bursaries? Thank you.

We have the Iaith Athrawon Yfory scheme, which provides a financial incentive for people to come into the sector, but the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol is also piloting a bursary. Also, as you say, it's very important to find ways of attracting people in. An element of that is financial, but there are other elements related to that too. We have a 10-year plan, where we're working with partners across Wales to ensure that we can look at alternative ways of qualifying as teachers, and also looking at people we could attract into the profession. So, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol is also working on creating a network of students who've moved from Wales to study in England but who are Welsh speaking, and it's a matter of keeping in touch with them and attracting them back. So, we need to be very creative in how we tackle this, I think.

Thank you. If I can go back to Alun Davies.

Okay. One of the—. I started my questions this morning by saying that I like your tone, Minister, and one of the things that I like is the emphasis on the use of the Welsh language. I think there is agreement that we need to see more use of the Welsh language. But, because of inflation, the budget has been reduced substantially during this year and next year. So, what impact do you foresee on the use of the Welsh language if the organisations and bodies that are trying to promote the use of the Welsh language see reductions in real terms to their budgets?

Well, that is an issue, of course. So, some of the partners we're funding have been given a flat settlement recently, and that's because of financial pressures, and that enables them to spend less on the initiatives that they're involved with, of course. What we've also done, for example, is we're reviewing the grant programme generally now to see if it's in line with the objectives of 'Cymraeg 2050'. That is partially about how much funding organisations receive, but also over what period, so that, within the context of financial pressures, as you mentioned, we can create more flexibility for them in how they use that funding, they would have the opportunity to see longer-term grants so that they can plan more effectively, and that would give them an opportunity to mitigate some of the financial pressures that they face.

We've also, for example, with the mentrau iaith, been emphasising the priority of empowering communities—so, not just providing themselves, but working with other organisations. So, one of the things we have been able to do, although the budget has been flat for some of those bodies, is to create a new fund with Cwmpas, which develops co-operative initiatives, and we have worked with some of the mentrau iaith to develop co-operative enterprises within that framework—about four of them. So, co-operation and partnership are very important, given the context that you mentioned.

Okay. But partnerships don't help to pay the electricity bills.

No, but there is the fund, and we have provided new funding streams too.

Okay. So, how do you foresee that having an impact on the organisations that we're discussing, when they see their core funding being reduced because of inflation? How do you see this new fund offering support?

Well, the fund is run by Cwmpas, the co-operative body in Wales, and what we recommend, working with the mentrau—

That's what I don't quite understand. I welcome it, by the way. I have no problem with it, but I'm not quite sure that I understand how this fund is going to help the organisations that have seen a decline in their core funding.

Okay. Would you like to come in on this element?

The Urdd has received £1.2 million in addition this term, and also we're funding the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol up to £1 million. We've also committed to looking at the budget of the mentrau iaith, as the Minister has said, following the grant review. But, as a starting point, because we know the financial costs are pressing, we've promised to look at this in the next few weeks before we have the recommendations from the report on the grant as a whole.

Okay. Well, I appreciate that, Mrs Webb, but I'm not quite sure that it answers the question that I asked. But, for you, Minister, do you intend to intervene in any way? Because, at the moment, from what I see, grants are provided and organisations such as the mentrau iaith do whatever they choose to do within their own communities. But do you intend to intervene in any way to tell certain bodies, 'This is my priority, and this is how I want you to use taxpayers' money'?

I already do that. As a result of the work that was undertaken during COVID to see what the impact of COVID was financially on some of the promoting bodies, I asked those organisations to refocus on not just provide activities themselves, but also this idea of creating capacity and social empowerment. And that is a great shift in the way that a number of bodies—not all of them; there is already good practice in that sector—. If you look on Anglesey, for example, there's a lot of community work ongoing there and in the local economy. So, that is an element, and they're all refocusing on that now. That's why the fund with Cwmpas is important, because that allows them all to work together on those initiatives, and that's what the purpose of the grant review is—to see whether it's consistent with what we're requesting and asking of these organisations for 'Cymraeg 2050'.

I appreciate that, and I welcome that too. Tom Giffard asked a question as to how the whole concept of the target of 1 million Welsh speakers would change the operation of Government. It wasn't a target for the Welsh language division; it's a target for the whole of the Welsh Government.

Of course.

You said in response to Tom that the budget for the Welsh language cuts across the whole Welsh Government, because there are many elements to it. Have you—? Is there any baseline for Welsh Government expenditure on the Welsh language across Government?

No. That's what I was, more or less, trying to say earlier—it's not as clear as that. And that's the tension that we have, if I could just expand a little on that: what is expenditure on the Welsh language? So, if you look at the budget of the work that we're doing with Arfor—and you had the Minister for Economy with you earlier—is Arfor the element of expenditure on the Welsh language in the budget there, or is it Business Wales? But, actually, what we should be trying to show is the impact of all the economic programmes on the Welsh language. So, it's much more complex than saying, and I wouldn't want to create a formula that says, 'We're only going to evaluate'—for example—'Arfor', because that's going to create the wrong behaviour in the Government, I think.

Chair, I do think that this is an issue for discussion with Government. Because I tend to agree with the Minister that it is very difficult to measure expenditure, but it's very important to try and measure impact. And I welcome the appointments that you've made recently; Dr Brooks has started work, as have others, in looking at Welsh-speaking communities. So, I do think that it would be useful, perhaps through the budget process, if we could look at the impact of Welsh Government policies on the Welsh language. And perhaps it might be fitting if the Minister could write to us to begin that conversation.

Certainly, very happy to do that. As I said, we're on this path now of moving—. We've got an integrated impact for the budget, but so that we can have the clear picture that you want, and I want, we need to improve the understanding of the impact of individual policies, so that we can look at the aggregate then in the budget, and that's the work that's ongoing. So, I'd be very happy, Chair, to write about that.

Thank you very much.

I'm happy with that.

Thank you. May I go back, just in terms of teachers—the point regarding the shortage of teachers, and that we are still aware, in terms of English medium, specifically, that, in some areas, perhaps A-level Welsh cannot be offered in some schools because demand is low, or problems with staff recruitment in English-medium schools and geographically mean that it's not practicable therefore even for somebody to travel? Is there support available in terms of supporting English-medium schools in terms of—? Because often what I've heard back from schools is that it's not cost-effective, in terms of not enough pupils and so on. How therefore do you think that the interventions that you're making are going to ensure that, even if it's just two pupils in an English-medium school who wish to take A-level Welsh, how do they therefore get that opportunity—that the economic situation isn't a barrier, if we're serious about moving English-medium schools in terms of the continuum and providing an opportunity for every pupil, whatever school they're in, to continue on the language continuum?

In terms of the Welsh in education BEL, if you look at the e-sgol element, there is a budget line there that allows that to happen in terms of collaboration between schools. So, last year, we more or less doubled that budget—from memory—and we've maintained it in this year's budget. So, that does allow collaboration between schools, so that the numbers aren't necessarily a barrier. It has been piloted in Ceredigion, and it's now available in all parts of Wales. There are different challenges—some geographical, some for other reasons—in different schools. And I saw recently how it's working on the ground in a school in Ceredigion, and it was very interesting to see how it worked. You had a teacher in one room, and different classes working on the screen together. And I discussed the benefits both with the teacher and the pupils, and it was very interesting. There are things for us to learn from that kind of approach that we could use far more broadly in our education system, to tell you the truth. So, if you have an opportunity to go and see that in action, as a committee, it's certainly worthwhile.

Excellent. Thank you very much. May I ask if you can expand on funding allocated to the National Eisteddfod specifically in the draft budget, and what you referred to, that funding for the National Eisteddfod was intended to increase to £1 million in 2023-24? We obviously heard evidence from the National Eisteddfod regarding the great challenges that they face because of the increase in costs, not only as a result of the cost-of-living crisis, but also following Brexit and so on, in terms of some issues. Could you explain what discussions have been ongoing in terms of funding the National Eisteddfod and how this funding perhaps is going to support the future of the National Eisteddfod?

Well, it goes to the sustainability of the organisation, so that we can support them in doing what we want them to do. And it goes back, to be honest, to the discussion on increasing usage; I think the National Eisteddfod has a very important role in helping us to meet that target. And it's crucially important, I would say, for the success of 'Cymraeg 2050' more broadly too.

You have the festival itself, of course, but you also have a broad range of community activities that happen like a halo around the festival, as it travels around Wales. That enables people who perhaps aren't confident in using the Welsh language, or are coming to the Welsh language for the very first time, as well as those who perhaps are confident but don't have the opportunity, so there is an opportunity there, as we support the National Eisteddfod more, to do more in those areas. And that's the focus of some of the budget, that they are staffed in order to provide that Welsh-medium social activity outwith the Eisteddfod. That will be happening already in your part of Wales, in Rhondda Cynon Taf, and then it will begin in Wrexham soon for the following year, and that creates opportunities to use the Welsh language, and that's so very important.

So, just in terms of this part of the budget, therefore, clearly there is reference to ensuring the staffing of the Eisteddfod and so on. We know that they have had to lose some members of staff because of the COVID challenges. Do you see, in terms of the emphasis that you place on use, that investing in the National Eisteddfod, therefore, is part of that support and something that you are trying to prioritise?

Certainly.

Thank you very much; a clear and concise answer. So, can we move on, therefore, to Carolyn Thomas?

Just regarding the Welsh Language Commissioner's budget, do you think that—[Inaudible.] And I saw that there is—. Sorry. Shall I repeat that, because it wasn't on the mike? Okay. So, it's just regarding the Welsh Language Commissioner's budget, and you have a new Welsh commissioner. Do you believe that the budget is enough for them to be able to carry out their duty? I see that there is an uplift, but I believe that's to cover wage increases in that department, to keep them in line with pay awards.

Yes, there is an increase of 4 per cent, which is in line with the increases to other commissioners, and as you said, the purpose of that is to secure staff salaries. There's also a capital allocation for information technology in the most part. I am confident that the budget will allow the commissioner to do her work. I had an opportunity to meet the new commissioner, who's been in her role for just a week. Both of us were keen to have an early meeting, and it was very beneficial and very positive indeed. This morning's discussion has focused a lot on use and increasing the use of the Welsh language, and what I would say, from the conversation we had with Efa Gruffudd Jones, is that the emphasis of the new commissioner is also very clearly on increasing language use. I think that's to be welcomed, so I look forward to working with her in her new role.

Thank you very much. Are there any other questions? Yes.

Could I ask about the commissioner? Even though she's new to the role—and I'm looking forward to seeing what she will do in the role—she will have different priorities to the previous commissioner, so how do you know that the budget that you have allocated is sufficient to undertake the priorities that may be different to those of the previous commissioner?

Well, like all organisations, you have to work on your priorities within the budget available.

But Carolyn's question was: is it sufficient for her to do her work?

It will be sufficient; I can assure you of that.

Thank you. Did you have a supplementary question?

I do have a question, but it's about my hobby-horse more than anything else. Every time I see the Minister, I do want to ask this question, so with your indulgence. Since the last election, we've heard a lot less about the Government's work in digital than we did in the last Senedd, and one of the things that I know Mrs Webb has been working on is how do we ensure that Alexa, and whoever else is available, can communicate through the medium of Welsh. And I think one of the ways that we promote the use of the Welsh language is through ensuring that what is new technology for me—it's not for my children, but it's certainly new for me—can understand and use the Welsh language. And one of the priorities that I would like you to focus on during the next years is to ensure that this work on technology using the Welsh language does continue. Is that a priority of yours, and do you have any part of your budget that is allocated for this work?

Yes. Not just a priority, but we have had a specific development in this area recently. If you look at what we're doing with Microsoft, we're the first Government in the world to work with them to create Teams that's bilingual. So, for the first time ever, that is available now, as it is in Zoom anyway. So, that's a partnership between Welsh Government and Microsoft, and that's how that's been created, and it's available to every Government and organisation in the world, and I think that's important, in terms of innovation, and it allows public bodies that quite often use Teams, not Zoom, for specific reasons—that's one example.

I was in the Eisteddfod last summer and used Aberwla, a virtual reality platform for learning Welsh in the immersion context, so that you live in a village and learn Welsh by going to the supermarket and walking down the road. It's really great. It was created in Gwynedd and now it's available in all parts of Wales. We're funding that to be shared right across Wales. That's one of the things that we've been developing and funding. So, many of those things are happening. We're funding M-SParc, for example, in Anglesey—there's a lot of digital innovation there. I was with them last year, at the start of the year, looking at the work that they're doing as an incubator, if you like, with regard to Welsh-language technology. Lots of interesting things are happening there too.

I'm very pleased to hear that, but this isn't a memory test for the Minister. [Laughter.] Well, you've passed that test, anyway. It would be great if you could write to us and list those activities and those initiatives that you are promoting, because I think this is essential for the future, so I welcome that.

Happy to do so.

If I could just expand on that, just in terms of the promotional element. I came across many of the things that you've just referred to in the National Eisteddfod this year, as I spent a great deal of time with my 9-year-old son in the science and technology village. Do you think, in terms of ensuring that those who will get the greatest benefit from this, that there is sufficient funding in terms of promoting what's available so that people can access it? Is that something for the Government, local authorities—? I'm just thinking how we promote this, because we also see, in terms of promoting Welsh-medium education, that that can vary from county to county, in terms of the emphasis and the emphasis on immersion. There were some great examples of late immersion on the news this morning, but I was listening to Radio Cymru, which has a core audience. Perhaps that's not the audience that needs to hear those messages. So, do you think, just in terms of the promotional element in terms of what's available, and innovation particularly, that we are doing that sufficiently?

I think there's a difference between marketing and promotion, I would say. Promotion is an integrated thing, isn't it? A lot of the stuff we've been discussing today creates an ecosystem of various elements promoting each other. So, I think promotion is something that happens across this budget. If you look at immersion, it does depend on where you are in Wales, doesn't it? Your experience of immersion is going to vary because different parts of Wales are on different parts of that path. So, you wouldn't expect, where we are today, for every offer to be promoted in the same way because the offer might not be as mature in every part of Wales. So, I think it is slightly different. For example, one of the things that I have been clear about with local authorities, when I'm having the one-to-one discussions with leaders, is how important it is to have a clear strategy to promote Welsh-medium education, and some have been more successful, of course, than others. But I think that that culture has changed over the last few years—there's more understanding of what the aim is. That is, not just meeting demand, but explaining the advantages and growing that demand, if you like. So, I think that message has been heard. But, of course, we need to see that happening.

Thank you, Minister. If could move on to Hefin David.

Thank you, Chair. Following the initial announcement of £2.2 million for late immersion, the Welsh Government committed to additional funding of £6.6 million over three years. In the evidence paper, the Minister notes,

'This current funding round is enabling local authorities to keep in post, or appoint from new, over 60 specialised late immersion teachers/classroom assistants into newly established immersion units or centres.'

How will the Welsh Government ensure that there is delivery against that particular funding?

Thanks for that. It varies from area to area in terms of the use of that funding. So, when we allocated the budget originally, every local authority in Wales bid for, and received, part of that fund, which, in itself, is very important, I think. But, as I just mentioned in passing to the Chair now, local authorities are on different parts of the path, so what we expect them to do with that budget is different.

So, generally, if you're in the north-west, you have provision that has been established for a number of years, so maintaining that and expanding that is the use. If you look at the south-east, just in general, some councils are much earlier on that journey in terms of their immersion programmes. So, they may be developing programmes from the very beginning and recruiting for the first time.

But, on the whole, these are recruitment costs, whether they're teachers, co-ordinators or teaching assistants. We think there will be about 60 posts as a result of this, either by keeping those in place or new recruitment. One of the things that's important to us in this area—and it's an important opportunity for us as well, I think—is that the skills that are used in immersion centres are very specialised skills. What we see happening is very effective. I would say that if you see it with your own eyes, it's quite miraculous, really, how quickly progress happens with the children in those centres.

But, the opportunity for us is that we're able to mainstream through the whole system those specialist skills that are being used in the immersion centres. We have a network also that's been established of centres that can create and share good practice through the system, so that the local authorities that have further to go can move along the pathway at a quicker pace.

Thank you very much. Hefin David, do you have any further questions?

Thank you. I'd also like to look at specific grant funding. Could the Minister explain the steps taken since responding to recommendations following the survey on the effects of COVID-19 on community groups, specifically around the establishment of the small grants scheme or the challenge fund?

I can. A number of things have happened since we had that report. Perhaps the biggest thing in terms of value is the £400,000 fund that we've established with Cwmpas to create co-operative social enterprises. That's a challenge fund, so that people can have part of that, as I mentioned earlier with Alun Davies. That is one fund.

We have created other funds with M-SParc—I mentioned them earlier—to look at how we can use technology to attract people to the Welsh language. We have two initiatives so far in that area. And, also—in more familiar means—a fund with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action to develop more volunteering through the medium of Welsh, and also the support that I've already mentioned to the Urdd and the National Eisteddfod. And also, of course, the local eisteddfod society, we've also supported their activities. They've been under great pressure, for obvious reasons, during COVID.

Thank you very much. Hefin, any further questions?

Yes. What about the sabbatical scheme?

Was there consideration of increasing the funding for that?

The sabbatical scheme is one of the programmes that we have in terms of increasing the skills of teachers in the English sector. I was in Cardiff recently meeting a cohort that had been on the course, and it's fantastic not only hearing their fluency in the language, but also the methods of learning and how they learnt the language. On the whole, it's teachers in the primary sector and in the English sector that are taking advantage of this.

We've maintained that budget, but we've also increased the wider provision, so the free lessons for teachers, the lessons for 18 to 25-year-olds. We're working with the consortia currently to look at how all these things jointly can create a better continuum through the system. At the moment, there are about 200 teachers a year that can take advantage of the sabbatical scheme. That costs about £3.6 million for us. The costs, on the whole, are the backfill costs, if you like. So, we need to look at the wider range, I think, of ways of supporting teachers to improve their Welsh language skills.

Thank you. Any further questions? No. Thank you. Does anyone else want to come in on that? Could I maybe return—? As you are giving us very succinct answers, could I return to an issue that I raised earlier in terms of Mudiad Meithrin, perhaps? You mentioned the importance of the provision and that the demand is there for expansion. One thing I noted was that the annual budget for Mudiad Meithrin hadn't changed from £3.03 million. Clearly, you mentioned that there was an increase and the demand was there, but do you think that the funding provided is sufficient in order to continue with progress towards the target?

Yes, it is, and we have been able to increase capacity from time to time so that we can—. I think I mentioned the run rate of about 12 settings a year, but we have been able to increase the budget year on year. So, in one year, they opened 20, for example, because we could provide more funding. But the budget that's there ensures that they're on track. Also, by the way, as I mentioned earlier, we've allocated money to Cwlwm in order to provide level 3 and 5 qualifications, and to have about 150 practitioners through that system, so that we can expand the workforce. That is an essential element of this. In increasing the workforce, we can move quicker, then, with establishing these settings.

Certainly. Thank you very much. Clearly, as a committee we'd be very interested to hear updates on that, like you do provide us with regular updates already. Could I also just ask—? Clearly, broadcasting isn't within your remit, but in looking at the Welsh language, one of the things that's been raised with us previously as a committee by S4C and others was on the issue of the fund for young audiences that was provided by the UK Government but that was cut. I am aware that this isn't an area that you're familiar with, but what I wanted to ask was: have there been any discussions with the Minister with responsibility for broadcasting—so, Dawn Bowden—in terms of issues such as the young audience fund? Because from what we understood as a committee, it had enabled S4C to invest in a number of programmes in terms of Cyw, and also in programming for young people too. Obviously, we know that things such as YouTube and so on are so crucially important. Have there been any discussions in terms of the use of the Welsh language and the relationship between the two budgets in that area?

We've had discussions over a long time with S4C regarding their provision in general, to support our objective as a Government. Each part of the Welsh ecosystem has a part to play to contribute to that. One of the things that we have been discussing is what they're providing in terms of younger audiences as well. Specific discussions have been ongoing in that area. We've just agreed on a memorandum of understanding with S4C in general. I don't think we've stated that publicly, so this is breaking news for you. But perhaps we could write to the committee on that.

Excellent. It's good to know, and clearly it's a cross-portfolio issue, as we've mentioned previously.

If I could just ask one further question—and we are going back now to issues that we've already covered—in terms of the grant programme that you mentioned and the budget line for the Welsh language, and the purpose of the review. Will that review reflect on the census results and is it likely to lead to any allocations during the year on any indicative spending for the future?

The general grant review—is that what you mean?

Yes.

We're looking currently at whether we can introduce one-off payments to some of the organisations that receive funding from us—payments to cope with the crisis. And perhaps we'll be in a situation to say a little bit more about that in a few weeks. But the purpose of the review is to see whether the model we have and the structure of funding and what we're asking from our partners is consistent with the objectives of 'Cymraeg 2050'. The objectives don't change. Things like data from the census feed into understanding how the interventions are working. So, everybody that we fund will want to look at that data to see if they have to change what they're doing to respond to it, of course. I don't foresee that we'll be making fundamental changes during this financial year as a result of that, but from the next financial year, it's likely that changes will arise as a result of the review and also what we'll understand from the census. So, the next budget, probably.

Thank you very much. Do any other committee members have further questions? We will be discussing the evidence later. If there are some further questions of detail, would it be okay for us to write to you, Minister?

Yes, you're welcome to do that.

May I thank you very much for joining us and providing your evidence? And thank you to Bethan and Owain for joining us, too.

Committee, if we could move on to our next item, we do have some papers to note—if I could only find them. We have papers to note, 4.1 and 4.2. Does anyone want to raise anything on those issues on the record? No. We're happy to note those papers. Thank you very much.

If we move on to item 5, may I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting and from the first two items of the next meeting, scheduled for 2 February 2023? Are Members content? Thank you very much. We will move into private session.