Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Therefore, unless anyone is unhappy for us to do so, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10 of today's meeting. Are you content to agree the motion? Okay, we'll wait to hear that we're in private session.

Croeso nôl—welcome back. We are moving to our next item, which is a ministerial session with the Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale OBE. You're very welcome to be with us. Would you be happy for us to go straight into questions with you? You're very welcome to, if you'd like to introduce yourself for the record.

Yes, Sir John Whittingdale; I am currently the Minister of State for Media, Tourism and Creative Industries, and, actually, also, the Minister for Data and Digital Infrastructure in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, so I cover quite a wide brief. I've been doing the job since May, I think it was, which I'm covering for my colleague Julia Lopez, who is currently on maternity leave.

We're very pleased to have you with us. Thank you very much for coming to give us evidence this morning. If it's all right, we'll go straight into questions. As you'll be aware, we've got quite a wide remit, as a committee, but part of that remit is the media and communications. As you look at it, and Wales's broadcasting needs specifically, do you think that our needs are distinct from or different from the rest of the UK in any way?

Well, yes and no. Obviously, the whole media landscape is changing very rapidly. So, we're seeing a proliferation of different tv content providers, mainly through streaming services. That is putting pressure on the public service broadcasters. We are intending to address some of those pressures with the introduction of the media Bill very shortly, and those are pressures that apply right across the United Kingdom.

Wales, obviously, has specific needs, mainly around the need to sustain and provide content for Welsh language speakers, and, therefore, we have always had a dedicated Welsh language television channel, which we continue to support. Alongside that, the BBC obviously provides a radio service and provides some content, and that's something that is part of the ecology in Wales, which we're equally keen to make sure is protected and promoted.

Thank you for that, and just before I go, because I've got a couple of Members who've indicated already that they'd like to come in with some supplementaries, a predecessor committee of ours, when looking at the media landscape, had said that,

'The supply of media content for Wales is inadequate.'

Would you agree with that? What would be your response to that position?

I would say that Wales has been very successful in terms of tv content production. There are a number of very successful studios across Wales. Now, all of the main public service broadcasters and, indeed, some of the streaming services carry productions made in Wales. Some of them are very obviously made in Wales, others are less so, but, nevertheless, they're all creating jobs and creating income.

That's not to say we couldn't do more. Obviously, I very much welcome the BBC's efforts through the Across the UK programme to move more production outside London, and I think Wales will benefit from that. I'm going to see, later on this afternoon, the new broadcasting headquarters that the BBC have created in Cardiff, and I'm also going to see S4C. I think that Wales is able to offer that sort of combination of skills and of very varied landscapes, which is very attractive to international production companies. So, I hope that Wales will continue to benefit from that.

Thank you for that. I've got Alun, first, who'd like to come in for a supplementary, and then I'll go to Llyr. So, Alun.

Thank you. It's good to see you in Cardiff, and we're grateful for your time today. I was interested in the way you answered the Chair's first question, when she asked about the needs of Wales. You specifically referred to the language, and that's fair, that's absolutely the case, and S4C, Radio Cymru and the rest of it do a great job, and we consume them ourselves here.

But, also, the English language has a place in Wales, and English language cultural expression in Wales. Most of us will speak English as our first language, and our cultural expression struggles to find a place on those public service broadcasters. Then, the news content that we receive has to be pigeonholed, if you like, or forced into the structures that exist for the regions of England as well as Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. So, there isn't the space, the time and the place for a real debate and discussion about the news agenda in Wales, and to hold people like us to account in how we serve. So, there's that sort of news and cultural element, if you like, in the English language, which I would be surprised if anybody thought was well provided for in the current system.

I completely recognise—. I mean, you have on the one hand production and programming, which is made here and also, in many cases, will reflect the culture of Wales, and that's an important part of the PSB content. But on the specific issue you raised of news, the BBC has a charter—I was responsible for helping to draw it up in one of my previous capacities—and making sure that it covers the nations and regions properly is absolutely in the top line of the charter. Now, how they go about this—you'll have heard from the Office of Communications and from the BBC, I'm sure—is a matter for the BBC, but Ofcom has a duty to make sure that they are keeping to the charter and providing the content. How they do it—. I can understand that you might feel that the debates that take place here should get more—

I didn't just mean the debates that take place here, I meant the reporting of the news from the country as a whole. Holding us to account is one role, but it's not the only role.

No, and I would agree with that. I think the extent to which the news has been, perhaps, too dominated by events around my building in Westminster and London is something that the BBC are aware of and they are trying to address, both in terms of—. I mean, I think news production is now, quite often, moving around the country and has come to Cardiff. I know that Newsnight has occasionally been produced in Cardiff. So, I think that attempt by the BBC to get out of London—and, to some extent, I think the news coverage will be influenced by the place from which it is broadcast, so that is a very welcome development.

Thank you for that. Llyr, and then I'll come to Tom. Llyr.

But isn't putting the responsibility on the BBC rather absolving yourself of responsibility for making sure that, actually, Wales hears its own story?

Well, I mean, it's at three levels. The Government and I, as the Minister responsible for the BBC, have the obligation to write the charter and set the framework agreement with the BBC, and then we have a regulator that is there to make sure that it delivers. But, at the end of the day, I don't think it would be right for me or anybody else to say to the BBC, 'You've got to cover that and not this'. I mean, that would be an interference in editorial decisions.

And I get that, but we do have a situation, and I saw a recent YouGov poll that showed that a third of people in Wales a quarter of a century into devolution still don't appreciate that the Welsh Government are responsible for health in Wales. A third, actually, believe that the Conservatives have Ministers in the Welsh Government following the 2021 election—[Interruption.] Yes. Well, yes, whether you believe that's good or not is—

Well, we do do our best to tell people that the Welsh—[Laughter.]

—is a matter of opinion. But it does, does it not, underline that there is an insufficient broadcast service in Wales, because otherwise, you know, this wouldn't be the case, would it? I mean, you can't say that that's acceptable, can you, surely?

People's understanding of which layer of government is responsible for what is not a problem unique to Wales. I mean, it's very widespread. In my own area, if I said to them, 'What does the county council do? What does the district council do? What does national Government do?', they would almost certainly get it wrong. But that's not to say that I don't absolutely recognise that part of the duty of the BBC is to educate as well as to inform, and I think that increased coverage of the debates and activities at different layers of government is an important part of that.

And when you contrast, I have to say, the situation in Scotland, where you have BBC Scotland broadcasting every night, where you have an hour-long news programme—not necessarily something we have to replicate—but you look at the level of budget, and then I and many other people really do feel that we're being let down.

Yes. Obviously, in Scotland, there is a dedicated service. Whether or not that's the right way of addressing it, actually, I think has been quite widely debated. But I would expect to see a lot of content relating to Wales on the BBC and not just the BBC, but other Welsh broadcasting services. I know the BBC—and I recognise that this isn't only about language—is talking about extending their broadcasting of the Welsh language on radio. So, I think they are attuned to this.

Just finally, then, if I may. You touched on production and programming moving out of London, et cetera. I know that you've been in correspondence with TAC, Teledwyr Annibynnol Cymru, the independent production companies in Wales, on their concerns about regional production quotas not necessarily being sincere, in some respects, or at least the risk that they're not sincerely reported or policed effectively. Do you share their concerns, and if you do, then, obviously, what are you doing about it?

Again, I don't think this is a complaint that is just coming from Wales. I do talk to TAC, but I've also talked to the Producers Alliance for Cinema and Television, the UK-wide production body, and there's long been a complaint about what they call brass-plating, or somebody having an office just outside the M25 in order to qualify, even though most of the employees come from within. So, that is an Ofcom matter, obviously, to ensure that the obligations on the broadcasters are being properly met, and I would hope that Ofcom would look quite hard to make sure that production that is claimed to originate in Wales, or certainly outside London, actually does and isn't just directed from a brass plate on the door, when, actually, most of it's done elsewhere.

So, do you share the concern, then, that the way this is reported by Ofcom very often means that—? You know, they report the year after broadcast, meaning that the commissioning happened maybe two or three years before, and by the time you get to time of broadcast, it's too late, isn't it?

Ofcom is a post-broadcast regulator, so they can't regulate pre-transmission, so to some extent it's bound to be after the production's already been broadcast, but that's not to say that they can't go back and satisfy themselves that the statistics quoted by the broadcasters as to the proportion of production that they've commissioned from outside London, or from Wales, actually does reflect properly the reality.

Okay, thank you. And then to Tom.

Thank you. In answer to your question from Alun, you spoke about the BBC charter and the importance of more programming coming from outside of London, which is something I share, but then you gave two examples of shows being produced in Cardiff. Whilst, obviously, I'm not expecting a fully functional broadcasting centre everywhere in Wales—I don't think that's quite in the budget—is there not a risk that you run sometimes that you can just say, 'Well, that's done outside of London,' but, actually, you've created almost a mini problem in Cardiff as well?

You're right that that's obviously a challenge. I can remember in my previous times in this role, we pressed the BBC to move outside of London and they created a brand spanking new building in Manchester. Actually, having two centres of production is better than one, but that doesn't help people beyond Manchester. I have some sympathy. I think there is production taking place outside Cardiff, I can't remember exactly where Sex Education was filmed. I think it wasn't within Cardiff. Things like The Pembrokeshire Murders—there are certainly productions taking place, taking advantage of the different landscape of Wales, but I can understand that you don't just want everything centred around Cardiff in order to tick the box saying, 'Made in Wales'.

Thank you. Okay. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen. We'll move on to Alun Davies.

I was glad to see that you've published a draft media Bill. I think it's good to see a draft Bill, so we can have a debate that is more focused than you'd have on a White Paper. I think that's always a very useful thing to do; it's very good that Government took that decision to do that. So, I'm interested now in how you see that progressing and what your timescales are. Is this actually going to be on the statute book by the time of dissolution?

I sincerely hope so. I absolutely agree with you, I think it was a real benefit to have it as a draft Bill. For instance, your sister committee in Westminster did an inquiry into the draft Bill, they published recommendations, which we have taken very careful note of and, in many cases, accepted, so the Bill is a better vehicle for having been through that process. I am very hopeful that you will have news very soon, like in 10 days' time, but until I hear the words from the King's mouth, we can't be absolutely—[Laughter.]

We're not allowed an exclusive.

We can't be absolutely certain, but we are very hopeful that it will be part of the King's Speech, and, therefore, if that's the case, that it will be introduced and reach the statute book by, I would imagine, the first half of next year.

That's good to hear. So, what are your ambitions, then, Minister, in terms of how that media Bill will impact upon my constituents in Blaenau Gwent?

As you know, it covers a range of issues. It's got specific provisions for S4C, which S4C has welcomed, and therefore, that will obviously be of real benefit to viewers in Wales. But then S4C will be part of the public service broadcasters grouping, and, for instance, we're going to say that, in future, listed events will be specific to the public service broadcasters. And then there's this issue, which is applied to all the public service broadcasters, of prominence, which I know from having talked to them they regard as tremendously important. We're moving into a world where there is such a huge range of choice and people access it through lots of different means, and you need visibility. You need for people still to be able to very easily find the public service content. So, that's one of the principal objectives of the media Bill.

I quite agree with you, and I think the way in which the draft Bill addresses the issue of due prominence is a very creative response to a very real challenge; I have no issue with that at all. But, you know, we've been debating the changing world in the media for as long as I can remember; before I was elected 20 years ago, we were debating it, the creation of Ofcom was about convergence and the rest of it, and we're still debating in that context. To some extent, in doing so, we're reflecting the social, economic and cultural changes that are driven by technological change. But throughout that process, if I look back, I'm not convinced that any of us—whatever the political party in power, wherever we've sat at different times in this debate—have really succeeded in protecting the interests of Wales as a country. And I put it like that because I don't think there's been one specific failure, and I don't think it's bad people trying to do bad things to good people; I don’t think it's a matter in those senses at all. I think it's about that the place of Wales hasn't really been protected, and in terms of the amount of hours we have, where those hours are broadcast, the range of genres that are broadcast—in the English language—and across different plurality of provision. And so, I'm looking at all this change—. And it's great in all sorts of different ways; I enjoy Netflix, I enjoy watching the iPlayer in the same way as other people do, but Wales isn't there. And I'm interested—because this media Bill is catching up in some ways in terms of technological change—in how you would see that providing a place for Wales, because I'm not sure it's there at the moment. I'd be interested to read the Welsh Affairs Committee's report on this as well.

Yes, we met at that last time. I think it's very easy to focus on the statistics—say, the proportion of overall production that comes from Wales as against other parts. I think there is a deeper question, which is one that we have begun to try to address, although not specifically about Wales. You may remember we said that we saw one of the roles of public service broadcasters as to provide what was clearly British content. And how you define that we can have a long debate about. But I think that is against—. The productions that the streaming services produce are of huge quality, but with the exception of The Crown, which clearly is a very obviously British show—. Sex Education, for instance, looks awfully like an American high school at times, even though it was—. And deliberately, because I think it is made in order to have an international appeal. So, I think it is something that public service broadcasters need to address. I think obviously S4C has a particular role in that that is going to be much more focused on content from Wales and in the Welsh language, but that's not to excuse ITV and the BBC, and I think both of them recognise that, but probably could do more. But that is something you have to raise with them.

You say that, and I accept that to some extent, but you are the Minister, and these are not devolved matters. As someone who has argued against the devolution of broadcasting over the years, I sometimes feel I'm arguing against the interests of the people I represent. And it's a difficult thing, because in terms of economic regulation, I'm not convinced that a Welsh Parliament, of whatever standing, could provide the regulation that would be delivered at a UK level, and I'm quite clear in my mind about that. To some extent, the UK itself finds it difficult to regulate some of these megacorporations that now exist. But it is important that the United Kingdom Government is a Government of the United Kingdom and not a Government of England plus. Therefore, we would expect a UK Minister to take a view on where that regulation sits. I don't expect you to be sitting on somebody's shoulder, saying, 'That needs to be there; you need to move this here' and what have you—'That's terrible, do it differently'. I don't expect micromanagement or interference, but there is that balance, isn't there? Because you do have that accountability then to ensure that Wales is properly represented. And if I look back through the last few decades, it's one of decline—it's one of decline in terms of hours, in terms of genres, in terms of prominence, in terms of place. I don't think you can dismiss that in terms of statistics, because it's a lived experience of people in this country.

Yes, and certainly some of the research bears out what you say, not just in Wales, but in terms of the proportion of people who feel that the BBC is serving them. And that's something that I know the BBC is aware of. Again, we can express views about the content, and frequently do. The Secretary of State has regular meetings with Tim Davie and with the board, and, obviously, at the moment, Elan is very keen to make sure that Wales is right up at the forefront. We will express views, but at the end of the day, we can't instruct, and there are times when we have disagreement—

Well, I'm trying to get you to express views this morning.

I know that we're going to have to move on in a moment, but I'd also be interested to know—. Because you've been saying, Minister, how important it is and how welcome it is that, through S4C, Welsh speakers get, very clearly, a Welsh view. Do you think that there could be a danger that needs to be guarded against, a danger of two Waleses being perceived, where the Welsh speakers amongst the population would have that fully Welsh offer, whereas English speakers would not have the same—so, to avoid that 'two Waleses' situation?

I can entirely see that, in that, obviously, there is quite a large number of people living in Wales who don't speak Welsh and you need to make sure that the Welsh content isn't only in the Welsh language. Therefore, it is beholden on the broadcasters to meet their needs just as much. That's something that I would happily say to the BBC and I think that they would accept that. There are a number of areas where I've expressed views to the BBC where I think they're getting it wrong, and sometimes they change and sometimes they don't, but we can't actually tell them.

Can I—?

Okay, very briefly.

Certainly, when I worked in broadcasting, I would tell politicians, 'We don't live in Russia, you don't tell us what to broadcast', and I remember having those conversations with colleagues of mine here and colleagues of yours in Westminster. And I appreciate that you take that view; I think it's important that politicians do take that view. But there is also the balance, and it's the balance that I'm looking for here. Because whilst I wouldn't anticipate that the Minister for broadcasting would take a view on how the BBC or ITV Wales or whoever are delivering on their responsibilities, I would expect the Minister to have a view on what those responsibilities would be.

It goes back to some extent to the charter, but it also goes back to the channel 3 licence and the rest of it, and the media Bill, to say that Wales isn't simply a Welsh-speaking country, it's an English-speaking country as well, and the English-speaking population of Wales have a right to their cultural expression, to their lives being reflected through those public service broadcasters in the same way. When I speak Welsh, I have a choice of programming all evening that I might or might not watch. As an English speaker, I don't have any of those choices available to me. And it is very much, as the Chair explained, feast and famine in the same country. It just seems to me that the balance isn't there and that the UK Government has a responsibility there to step in to create the framework.

I would say that that framework is there. It's spelt out in black and white in the charter. Whether or not the BBC is meeting that requirement sufficiently is something that you're better placed to judge than I am, because I don't, obviously, watch the BBC in Wales every night. I'm sure you have before, but I would suggest you get that good Welshman Mr Rhodri Talfan Davies to come and sit here and put it to him, because that's his responsibility within the BBC, to make sure that there's proper coverage of—

Okay. I will finish on this. But as long as broadcasting remains a reserved function, the United Kingdom Government has a role and a responsibility as well, and I don't think you can simply say, 'This is all the BBC, this is nothing to do with us, guv'.

No, absolutely.

It's important, and it is important for, I think, the integrity of the union that the union Government, the UK Government, has responsibilities in these matters and is seen to be delivering on them.

You're right, and one of the ways in which we do that has been to conduct what is called the mid-term review, the publication of which actually is quite imminent. But that was to look at both the way in which the BBC is governed and the way in which Ofcom oversees the management of the BBC, and these are issues that certainly form part of that.

Thank you. And, of course, obviously there is very much a view, cross-party, in Wales that the Welsh language, Cymraeg, belongs to everyone regardless of whether they speak it, but that fact notwithstanding and to reinforce that point, I think that getting that plethora of opportunities and chances and offers for people regardless of which of the languages is their preference is a really strong thing. So, thank you for that. Carolyn, you wanted to come in on this, before we go to Tom.

It was just what you said before about people receiving media in different ways. Funding for S4C is protected under the licence fee; many people listen to the radio all the time, and Radio Cymru is really important as well to people. So, I was just wondering how DCMS ensure that Radio Cymru is protected.

And then also, did you say that you were the Minister in charge of IT and broadband as well?

Yes.

So, broadband is not devolved, but we have many areas across Wales—north Wales is the area I represent—that can't access broadband still. And we have areas of expertise like the Digital Signal Processing Centre of Excellence in Bangor, who have actually looked at great technology, but they need that funding to back it up. I remember that Boris Johnson announced £5 million for infrastructure projects, so how do we ensure that Wales also manages to get some of that funding, that there's equality of funding across—? We've got the experts, we need it desperately for that parity of access, so how can we make sure that we get that access to funding as well?

Thank you, Carolyn. I appreciate that you might like to answer us in writing, because I know that that is slightly—. Well, it's outside the scope, but it's related, of course.

It is related, and there is a good reason why the Minister with my responsibilities in DCMS also sits in the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, because there is clearly an overlap.

On your first point, the BBC have BBC Radio Cymru. It isn't protected specifically. This actually doesn't affect Wales as much, but as you may have seen, there's quite an argument about the cuts that the BBC have been making to BBC local radio across England, which I am very critical of. It's an example of where I have made that clear to the BBC. But, clearly, it is part of the way in which they meet the obligations of the charter, and I think it would be unthinkable for them not to provide both an English language and a Welsh language radio service, and I would expect Ofcom to make sure that continued.

On your second question, Wales is quite challenging, because of the nature of the geography. So, on the success we have had at rolling out gigabit broadband, we've gone up to around I think about 64 per cent in Wales now, which is a huge increase on what it was, but nevertheless it's below that in England because the geography does make it more challenging. So, the £5 billion you referred to is what we call the Project Gigabit initiative, which is to subsidise the provision of broadband by companies that would not supply it on commercial terms, it wouldn't be viable for them. And that has meant that some areas have benefited more than others, because some areas have more hard-to-reach parts.

I think Wales does benefit quite a lot from that, simply because there are more hard-to-reach areas. I'm very happy to supply you with further details. In any case, it's delivered by another body, for which I do have responsibility, called Building Digital UK, and BDUK administer the contracts to providers to roll out in the hard-to-reach areas, and I can tell you that your representatives in Westminster are regularly pressing me to make sure that more is done, because it is now becoming a necessity, and, if you don't have access to at least superfast, and obviously our ambition now is much more than superfast, it does make—you know, it creates a divide.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you very much for that.

We'll move on.

We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Thank you. I want to ask you about the licence fee. Obviously, the UK Government is reviewing the licence fee, and also note UK Government—. I've seen UK Government Ministers refer to it as a 'BBC licence fee'. So, first of all, can I ask for an update on where that is, and, secondly, if it is a BBC licence fee, what is the role for S4C that you see within the licence fee?

Well, we don't refer to it as a BBC licence fee. Obviously, in Wales, it is a particularly clear demonstration that the licence fee pays for things other than the BBC, but it does support other services as well. But it is a licence fee model that overwhelmingly does pay for the BBC. We looked at it when we renewed the charter and we decided that the licence fee, for the moment, is still the most appropriate way of funding the BBC, so we've said it will continue in place until 2034, and we will then begin to—. No, sorry, 2034 is the continuation of broadcasting linear. This settlement will come to an end in about 2028. I think it's difficult to see an alternative mechanism yet, but the Government is conducting a review of the future funding to look at the options, and we're just in the process of setting that up. My own view has always been that there will come a time when actually it's very hard to sustain the licence fee. We're already seeing the number of people who are either declaring that they're not required to pay for it because they don't use the BBC or any live tv, and that number is growing quite fast. And then on top of that we've got a quite high evasion rate. So, it is going to put pressure on the funding model, and I think it's right that we begin to look at alternatives.

Is it the intention that S4C would continue to be funded as a proportion of that licence fee in the future?

I mean, it's certainly—. These are very early days, but the future funding review will obviously take account of the fact that it isn't just the BBC that relies on the licence fee; S4C does as well. I think S4C is almost certainly going to continue to require public funding, and therefore the question becomes, then: what is the best way of raising that public money? Is it through the licence fee, or should we look at options? All of these are matters that the review is designed to address, but we haven't actually started it yet. But it is work that will be undertaken quite soon.

And is there a logic in future licence fee settlements—I appreciate where you say you are with the review—about having a set proportion of the overall income from the licence fee siphoned off towards S4C, or do you see that as something a bit more fluid?

At the moment, obviously there is an overall pot and the Government decides how much of that pot should go to S4C, and you will be unsurprised to learn that the BBC is not always very happy, particularly in the last licence fee settlement, where actually we decided that there should be quite a significant increase in the funding of S4C, both because they hadn't had one for quite a long time, and also because it was clearly important for S4C to roll out a digital offering, which they are doing, and that requires investment. So, I think the Government will continue to say, 'Of the overall licence fee income, it is our view that this is the amount that has to go to S4C.' It wouldn't necessarily be a set proportion, but that's subject to a discussion, which we have with S4C as well as the BBC.

Okay, thank you. I think Alun wanted to come in on this, and then I'll go to Carolyn.

It feels that S4C's budget is too small. It feels like that in terms of looking historically at where S4C was 20-odd years ago and where S4C is today, and given the explosion in competition and the rest of it and, as you described, a changing world, and I've got no dispute or disagreement at all with your analysis on that. This little piece of the Welsh language in that big world becomes increasingly under greater pressure. And it feels to me that S4C does not have the resources it requires in order to deliver on its public service remit.

Sometimes, it does things that are fantastic. The coverage of—. The Welsh team surprised us in the world cup in France recently; we hoped it would surprise us for a few more weeks. But the Welsh coverage, that Welsh-language coverage, was fantastic, and that's because it's got a connection with the people and the country and the rest of it, which is beyond a purchase price. But it feels to me, without going into great depth, that the budget is inadequate to deliver on this remit at present and in the future.

Well, I'm going on later this afternoon to visit S4C, and I'm sure they're not going to disagree with you. [Laughter.] But the Government has a duty to balance the needs of broadcasters against how much it is reasonable to expect people to pay. And we are coming to announce quite soon the uprating of the licence fee, because it's been frozen for a couple of years. But part of the agreement of the licence fee settlement was that it would rise in line with inflation after two years, and that is very much in the mind of the Secretary of State—at a time when people are still struggling with the cost of living, how much it is reasonable to ask. And within the licence fee pot, as I say, I think S4C have done quite well. I'm sure they would like more and they could usefully spend more, but after, admittedly, a couple of years when they didn't have an increase, they got a pretty good settlement last time.

I would be surprised if there is any matrix that demonstrated S4C's budget has kept anywhere close to the cost increases over the number of years, or recognises the competition.

And the BBC will make the same argument, indeed, do frequently, and I'm not going to argue with that. The Government did have to take difficult decisions, such as the licence fee freeze, which we've had for the last two years, and that does represent a real-terms cut.

I think the decision that the UK Government took to take it away from DCMS direct funding to the licence fee funding was the correct decision or the right decision, and I think it is important. There was a certain discomfiture with a Minister taking a decision directly in those terms on an annual basis. I thought that was the wrong place to be; it felt uncomfortable. So, I think UK Government is going in the right direction, but I would ask you to think hard about what that budget is in the world in which it competes.

Yes. Obviously, I will talk to them later, but I'm conscious that, with an overall pot of money raised by the licence fee, if you give a bit more to S4C, that's a bit less for the BBC, and the BBC are already very unhappy about the extent to which they have been squeezed by the freeze of the last couple of years.

I think Llyr wants to come in on this.

Just to point out that, since 2010, S4C has seen a 30 per cent real-terms decrease of its funding; BBC 25 per cent. So, it's disproportionately hitting S4C, isn't it, that's the point.

And just quickly, before we move on, the points that you've been making notwithstanding, would you accept that S4C is unique in a way because of the offer that it provides, because of its history, because of the status that it has, that there is a value to what S4C provides that is beyond anything that can be quantifiable on a spreadsheet in the same way?

Yes, because it is playing an absolutely central role in protecting and promoting the Welsh language, which has always been something that the UK Government has believed is important. You could make the argument, I suppose, that BBC Alba, sort of, is designed to achieve the same, but on a much smaller scale, obviously—the number of Gaelic speakers is far smaller, the funding is much smaller. So, yes, S4C does occupy a unique position in the broadcasting landscape.

Thank you.

Okay. We'll move on. Carolyn.

Okay. Thank you. So, how do you feel that public services broadcasting regulations have changed to reflect that we now have our national Parliament and devolved Government here in Wales?

Well, to some extent, it has been a question for the broadcasters. I come back the discussion we had earlier; it is a question for the broadcasters as to how they report and inform people about what is happening in this building, which, in terms of affecting the lives of people living in Wales, is probably, a lot of the time, more relevant to them than what's happening in Westminster, and that is a duty upon the broadcasters. We did strengthen the charter; it's one of the public purposes of the BBC. But it's not just a question for the BBC, but also there are the production quotas et cetera. So, the regulatory framework has evolved, but, at the end of the day, the broadcasters need to take account of the development of devolution and the establishment of the Welsh Parliament and reflect that in their coverage.

Okay. Thank you. In 2022, ITV's UK network spend in Wales had plummeted to close to 0 per cent of their qualifying UK spend, so do you think that's appropriate?

I would hope that that's something that ITV would want to address. I mean, you can't say that every part of the UK has to have a proportion of production that exactly matches the proportion of the population. But, from what you say, that's quite a long way from that, and therefore that is something that—. I mean, ITV have a studio here, so I hope that's something that they will be addressing.

Okay. Thank you very much. And then our committee in the previous Senedd recommended that the Channel 3 licence should require the holder to produce a greater proportion of network content in Wales and Welsh Government should have a formal role in the process. So, what do you think about those calls?

Well, the renewal of the Channel 3 licences is an ongoing process at the moment. Channel 3 is in the process of—ITV is in the process of—renewing their licence. Broadcasting is a reserved matter, so it is a matter for my Secretary of State and the UK Government, but, at the very least, we will be keen to hear from this committee and from the devolved administrations. And we do have quite regular discussions with them, and we're also in the process—. I think we discussed, when I last was giving evidence in Westminster, the establishment of the inter-ministerial group, which is something we're keen to see set up. So, even if it's reserved, that doesn't mean we aren't keen to hear from the devolved administrations.

That's really good to hear. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay. We are almost into our final quarter of an hour, and we'll move on now to Llyr.

Yes—sports rights. We mentioned earlier, didn't we, the importance of cultural expression and, of course, I'm just wondering what assessment you've made of the relative importance of, let's say, rugby, to us here in Wales, and how could that be better reflected in broadcasting rights for sport. And maybe I'll roll it all in to one question, because we've seen the autumn internationals, the rugby internationals, last year go behind a pay wall, there's even been mention of potentially the next Rugby World Cup going the same way. Clearly, you look at the viewing figures in Wales and rugby is right up there, and, in terms of public service, surely there should be a greater protection for that in Wales.

The listed events is quite a narrow list, both group A and group B. Group B obviously does contain the nations' rugby matches, but the final of the world cup will be—. I don't know, certainly I hope England might get there, even if Wales can't, but that is on the group A list. It's a very difficult balance, because, if you go and talk to the sports authorities, obviously they are keen to maximise the income for their sport, and being a listed event and therefore restricting the potential bidders for broadcasting rights to only the public service broadcasters is quite a significant limitation on the amount of money they can raise. So, we have a duty to balance that, as do they. And it isn't necessarily in the interests of a sport to just maximise the amount that they can get from broadcasting rights. There are certain sports—. You know, Wimbledon has always gone to the BBC throughout the entire tournament, and they might well be able to get more elsewhere, but they took the decision that that is where it should lie. So, I'm reluctant to tell the sporting authorities who they can sell their rights to or not. I think in Wales you've been fortunate that, actually, they are carried free to air. S4C, obviously, has done a really good job in covering Welsh sporting matches. I hear what you say about the future, but I hope that that's a matter for the broadcasters and rights holders.

But also, given what we've been talking much about this morning around the need to reflect the different component parts of the United Kingdom, and different interests—and I'm particularly interested in the relative importance compared to other parts of the UK—clearly, that isn't reflected at all, is it, in the current regime?

I think it would be quite difficult to say that, for instance, rugby matches involving Wales should have a different level of protection to rugby matches involving England. I think you—[Interruption.] Well, yes, actually, I think rugby is attracting rather a lot of attention at the moment in England, and I think—. I'm not sure it would be right to try and distinguish between the importance of a sport in one part of the United Kingdom as against another part of the United Kingdom. At the moment, it's a theoretical issue, and I think the chances are it will probably remain a theoretical issue, but that is a matter for them. I've had similar discussions, actually, mainly around football, with representatives of the Scottish National Party, who have seen a lot of their matches go onto a streaming service behind a pay wall. So, it's a live issue there, but I think the same arguments apply.

Okay. Alun, did you want to come in there?

Look, we could talk about this all day. [Laughter.] I'm aware that the Scottish FA Cup final is protected in Scotland, so I think the argument that different countries have different interests is already accepted through that. And the Derby, for example, is protected.

Is the Derby not a UK nationally important event? I would think there were an awful lot of horse-racing lovers in Wales who would watch the Derby.

You're speaking to one of them, and Llyr is chair of the all-party group on horse-racing. But it doesn't fill a pub, does it? [Laughter.] It doesn't, does it? You don't talk about it—

I didn't expect that phrase to be uttered today.

—when you get to work on Monday. There is a place in the national psyche that is taken up by sport, and speaking as a member of Glamorgan County Cricket Club, I've seen the decline in cricket as a consequence of being behind a pay wall. And I think the UK Government has a responsibility to sport, to the community and the country that goes beyond simply maximising individual profit.

I think the sporting bodies—. The England and Wales Cricket Board need to take account of that when they decide who—. Cricket is particularly difficult, because it takes up such a lot of time.

It does.

And therefore not many broadcasters are willing to—

But we've seen a decline in cricket, at least partly as a consequence of its lack of visibility. We all want to see our countries do well in sport here. We were watching Wales surprisingly beat Croatia on Sunday night, but—

I never had a doubt. [Laughter.]

You haven't watched enough football. [Laughter.] But there is a responsibility there, isn't there, because one of the issues I worry about in terms of the changes we discuss is that those technological possibilities and profit margins define who we are. And all of a sudden, we've lost who we are as a country and as different nations. And I think there is, to put it gently, something that we need to conserve as well as exploit.

And I would say that whilst broadcasting is reserved, sport is not, and therefore—. We've always said that if the Welsh Parliament argued very strongly that, for the good of sport in Wales, we needed to look again at the listed events, we would look at it, certainly. So, it's not closed.

Okay. So, let's have that conversation.

That's useful. Thank you very much. And finally from us, on radio, could you talk us through whether you think that radio regulation accounts for the fact that Wales is a bilingual nation, that we have our own Parliament, that there is a Welsh Government that many areas of policy would be determined—? Do you think that the regulation at the moment takes account of all of that?

It's difficult for me to judge, in that I don't, obviously, get the opportunity to listen to both the BBC's Welsh services in English and in Welsh. Radio is still very important, and actually we are including within the media Bill measures to make sure that radio is protected on the various different devices that people now use to access radio content, in the same way that we're doing for tv. And the select committee in Westminster issued a report that was very supportive of what we're doing for radio. So, I think the Government absolutely recognises that we need to continue to promote radio, but in terms of which radio reports upon what happens in this building or across Wales, I'm afraid I fall back to: that is a matter for them.

Okay, thank you. A predecessor committee of ours had called for commercial radio licensing to be changed so that it would require Welsh language content as part of those licences in Wales, and they also called to introduce a regulatory category of all-Wales news. Are you aware whether Ofcom has had discussions with the UK Government following those recommendations?

The easy answer is 'no', I hadn't—. I'm very happy to take that one away and have a look.

Okay, thank you. Thank you very much. Now, we do have just shy of nine minutes left before the Minister has to leave us. Were there any other questions any Members wanted to ask? Or if not, was there anything that you had hoped to put across that hasn't been covered already today?

Obviously, this session was around public service broadcasting, which is hugely important, and so I'm very happy to come and address it. But my department is very keen to support Wales in all the various aspects that we do. I'm also the Minister for creative industries, so we have great ambitions to grow the creative industries, and Wales will play a critical role in doing that, and I know that's something this committee also takes account of. So, I'm very happy to remain in contact with the committee and if there are future occasions when you want to raise other aspects of my brief—or if Julia Lopez returns, I'm sure she will equally be happy to respond.

Thank you very much for that. And as you were speaking, two Members indicated that they had supplementaries to what you just said, so I'm aware of time, but I'll go to Carolyn and then to Llyr and then we'll end.

Okay. Just in the light of what you just said then about creative industries and IT, we do feel it's a really growing industry, and I recently met with businesses and public bodies in north Wales who are hoping to grow it in north Wales. You talked about making sure—. We always talk about it's not just Cardiff Bay, it's all around the big centres, that we spread it around, and I think they're going to put a bid in for the free-zone status, but I just feel like it's very interesting for young people, looking as an industry to get into, and it's growing and really important as well.

Well, one of the first things that I did when I came back into the department—and I actually had a call with the Minister here, but that was to launch the creative sector vision, which the department had been working up. And that's quite a significant investment, with a big ambition to create a million jobs within the creative industries, but I think it is achievable because it is something that the UK as a whole is incredibly good at, and therefore in terms of job creation for young people, that's something we're very keen to see happen. We are supporting through a number of—. Creative Wales does quite a lot here, and then there are UK-wide programmes, but that is something that certainly is a priority.

Thank you. And then, finally, Llyr.

Just very, very briefly back to the media Bill, obviously there'll be a requirement for public service broadcasters to have prominence on devices and platforms, or whatever. We had evidence from S4C a couple of weeks ago—the negotiation between the BBC and Samsung and those will be okay, I'd imagine, but smaller broadcasters like S4C may find it more difficult to broker the prominence that they would wish. Now, they said, obviously, S4C very much hope that Ofcom would have their back and would stand up. What would your expectation be of Ofcom in that respect?

My expectation would be that Ofcom will have their back. I mean, S4C are a public service broadcaster. They therefore qualify under the prominence requirements in the Bill, and, you know, we would expect the platforms to abide by that. But if there are difficulties, then, yes, I would certainly hope they would raise those with Ofcom, or indeed with us. And we're happy to talk to them.

Thank you.

Thank you. And then finally, finally—and this might be something that you might want to write to us about because I don't want to put you on the spot—but in terms of the media Bill, what changes do you think that that could make to Ofcom's ability to require specific content like Welsh language content for commercial radio providers? And, again, if you'd like to write to us with that, then—

Yes, I would say that the media Bill at the moment tries to give the public service broadcasters a little more flexibility in delivering the requirements. So, it's less of a list of specific genres that they have to deliver. That's more about tv than it is radio. But I'm happy to let you have further details on that.

Thank you very much. And on behalf of the committee, diolch yn fawr iawn, thank you very much for your evidence this morning. And I'm also very grateful for your offer that you would be willing to come back to the committee in the future and to keep an open dialogue. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to have you with us this morning. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

And I hope that your visits this afternoon go well.

Indeed. Unfortunately, the weather's not as nice as it could be, though.

Well, it's stopped raining quite as heavily. At least we can't hear it any more. [Laughter.] So, I hope you've got a good umbrella anyway.

Thank you all very much.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.

[Inaudible.]—exhibition upstairs on museums—

Oh, really—

—so if you've got five minutes. It's quite interesting to go around. Thank you.

Members, we had agreed earlier that we would continue in private following this item. So, we'll just wait to hear that we are in private session, and that we can continue.