Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

So, we'll move on to item 2, which is papers to note. There are four papers: safeguarding national collections is the first; the impact of increasing costs is the second; then we have Welsh Government's international relations, which is the third; and then, fourth, we have Wales-Ireland relations again. Are Members content to note those papers? Great. Okay.

By the way, for those who are listening in, we as a committee are aware of the press attention this morning with regard to S4C. We'll be keeping a close eye on this issue and will be awaiting the result of any investigations. Are Members content, therefore, for us to go into private session? And, for anyone watching, we will be reconvening in public at 10 o'clock, when we will been continuing with our inquiry on Wales-Ireland relations.

But, in the meantime, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the meeting for items 4 and 5. Okay. We'll wait to hear that we're in private session.

Welcome back. We move on now to the next item, which is Wales-Ireland relations; it's our current inquiry, of course. We have an evidence session now with the CHERISH project. This is a project looking at climate, heritage and environments of reefs, islands and headlands.

I'm going to ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Christopher first.

Good morning. My name's Christopher Catling. I'm the chief executive of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales. I'm here to talk with my colleague about the CHERISH project, but we have another Wales-Ireland project as well, called Ancient Connections, which I can talk about. This is a new pilgrimage route, linking County Wexford to Pembrokeshire. You don't have to cross by coracle—there is a ferry. [Laughter.]

Oh, fantastic. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Christopher. And Clare, could I ask you to introduce yourself, please?

Yes. I'm Clare Lancaster. I'm the project manager. I work for the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales as well, and I'm project manager for the CHERISH project.

Well, it's a pleasure to have the two of you with us. Can I start by asking: could you tell us a little bit about the work of your project, and of course the Ancient Connections project as well, and how that contributes, do you think, to Wales-Ireland relations? If I go to Christopher—. Christopher or Chris, which do you prefer?

Christopher. I will talk about Ancient Connections first. There is a huge amount of potential for pilgrimage, for the growth of pilgrimage, as a source of income for communities in Wales and Ireland. There's an awful lot of pilgrimages around, but this is a unique one, because it unites Ireland and Wales. It celebrates the connection between St David and St Aidan. St Aidan was St David's pupil at St David's in the ninth century—the seventh century, sorry; a bit earlier than the ninth century, the seventh century. The motif, the brand, for the pilgrimage route has been chosen as the bee symbol, because St David gave St Aidan a gift of bees, which he took with him back to Ireland. I can't believe there weren't bees in Ireland before, but, anyway, it's a nice story. And St Aidan went back and formed a monastery, on the model of St David's, in County Wexford.

The point is that we brought together local businesses and chambers of commerce and the local authorities—the chief executives of each of the two respective counties, Pembrokeshire and County Wexford. And the focus of the project was on how we could generate economic and social benefits from pilgrimage. And I think that it's an example of the sort of project between Wales and Ireland that costs money to begin with—we had a budget of £10,000—but it's an investment, because it has an effect. The main outcome from the project was that we have developed a brand that people, businesses, along the community—rural businesses, shops, hotels, hospitality businesses—can use to say that they're pilgrim friendly. And also there was a very strong suggestion from the participants that it creates a network of people who make recommendations. So, if pilgrims come and stay with you in your bed-and-breakfast and you say, ‘Where are you going next?’ and they say, ‘I’m going to X or Y’, you say, ‘Well, go and see Y, go and stay here, go and eat there’, and so on. It becomes quite a self-generating economic cycle. So that, in a nutshell, is what I consider to be the great benefit of a project of that kind.

Thank you so much, Christopher. And Clare, is there anything that you'd like to add that—well, about the CHERISH project?

Yes, so I can give you a background to CHERISH. So, we've been going since 2017. There are four partners—two in Ireland and two in Wales. In Ireland we've got the Discovery programme and Geological Survey Ireland, and over in Wales it's ourselves and Aberystwyth University. It is looking at, or has been looking at, raising awareness and understanding of the past, present and near-future impacts of climate change and storms and extreme weather events on the cultural heritage of both Wales and Ireland. We've got specific areas within Ireland and Wales that we work, and it's looking at the team working together across both countries to assess the cultural heritage and to work out what the impacts of climate change have been on that.

We had a first phase, which was a five-year phase, and that was recording the archeology and the cultural assets that we have, and then looking at the guidance, providing best-practice guidance on how organisations in the future can look at monitoring the climate change impacts on their sites. And then we've just moved into a second phase, which is looking at promoting the work that we've done within the first phase to tourism and educational sectors. So, we're looking at providing resources for schools in Wales and in Ireland to use to look at climate change, and I think we were one of the first projects within Wales to look at the new curriculum within Wales.

Great—diolch yn fawr. Thank you so much. We'll move on to Tom Giffard, who may delve a little more deeply into this. Tom.

Thanks. What are your views on the importance of Wales-Ireland relations, and where has your work had the greatest impact, do you think?

So, could Christopher—?

I would say that we've brought an expertise. Wales has been very much the strong partner, I have to say. Our expertise, our competence in the fields that we've brought to the project, has been sought out by the Irish partners. We're seen as having an expertise that makes a major contribution to the project, which I think says quite a lot about the excellence of the heritage sector in Wales.

Thank you. Alun, were you indicating that you wanted to come in there?

No, I was enjoying it.

Just smiling.

We've been complimented on our sheer competence, the delivery. The projects that we've been involved in have just gone as planned and have delivered what we were asked to deliver. And I think that's a—. To widen the question beyond Ireland, we are often approached by potential partners because of our expertise, from a number of European Union nations—Portugal particularly, Greece particularly. I think Wales is seen as a beacon of excellence in terms of heritage and conservation practice.

That's great to hear. Diolch yn fawr iawn—thank you so much. Clare, you wanted to come in on Tom's question.

Yes, I think just to echo what Christopher said, and I think also that, within both Ireland and Wales, there are legion organisations within heritage that are working on the project, but I think it's testament to the project as well and the relations that have been developed between the two countries that both in Ireland and in Wales the Government have used CHERISH's case study of how policy can be changed when you're looking at climate change and heritage.

That's a good point there, and, from the pilgrimage angle, Visit Wales has been very much involved in our work. I think pilgrimage and faith tourism is something that Visit Wales is beginning to understand now is something that has great potential in Wales.

Great—a connection between the ancient and modern there again.

Absolutely, yes.

Thanks for that.

Tom, was there anything else that you wanted to ask? Are you happy for us—?

No, I'll let others come in.

Great, thanks, Tom. We'll go to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. Obviously, we had the opportunity—. You had the wonderful exhibition here showcasing the project, and it was really great to see Irish partners. We're looking at the relationship between Wales and Ireland, and, obviously, interested in terms of this project, but also looking in terms of, potentially, the impact that Brexit may have on such partnerships in the future, where CHERISH is being funded until June of this year. But, looking towards the future, obviously, as you said, there's lots of interest, lots of collaboration and you specifically mentioned in terms of EU countries. What are the challenges, perhaps, facing you? Is there an uncertainty about how projects like CHERISH could take place in the future?

You bet. I mentioned the fact that funding is essential and that it's an investment, because these things grow. You need to get the momentum going, and then it's like a snowball; it picks up. Obviously, as we're no longer eligible for funding from the European Union, we do depend upon being brought in as a partner by other European Union nations, which they do do. The Horizon funding scheme offers great hope for Wales, if the United Kingdom can actually come to some sort of agreement with the European Union to enable us to re-enter that major research funding project that embraces the entirety of Europe.

The next stage that we would like to see—. CHERISH is a point-in-time piece of research. We've monitored where we are now in terms of climate change and its impacts on coastal heritage, and we know the rate at which it's being eroded in some cases. Coastal erosion is taking place at the rate of 2m a year, which is why we've had to excavate a couple of sites that are going to disappear within 20 years. What we need now is continuity. The 'c' of 'change' now needs to become 'continuity', and I think what we as a sector are trying to do now is gather together the funding for somebody to co-ordinate the whole sector. Climate change tends to be an adjunct to what our main job is going to be, but it's too important for that, and the United Nations has said that the pace of Government response to climate change is sluggish. We would like to help to speed it up.

Thank you. If I may just follow up on that, obviously, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if the UK doesn't sign up to Horizon, there's potentially a risk, then, in terms of potential projects.

It will cut off, potentially, probably the biggest source of funding that we have. The other sources of funding for research of this kind are the various research councils, but the size of the grants that you get from those is much smaller. They tend to be university based. The great benefit of European Union funding is the range of multidisciplinary organisations that you can bring together for collective understanding of an issue.

If I may just ask one final question, perhaps, in terms of the uncertainty around Horizon, then, is that making it difficult in terms of taking projects further at the moment—so, in terms of the next stage of CHERISH?

We are partnering in bids to the Horizon fund that are being led by European universities, but, anecdotally, we've been told that if the UK is involved in a Horizon project it won't get funding. So, we're almost a liability to those organisations. I don't know whether that's true or not, I really don't, but we have not succeeded so far in achieving the funding for a couple of climate change and coastal heritage projects that we've gone for where we thought we had the expertise to succeed.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you for that. We'll turn to Alun Davies.

I'm enjoying your evidence, Christopher. I think you're speaking with great conviction about the work that you've been doing, and that's something I really welcome. We've been through some choppy waters, I think it's fair to say, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I understand the project was born of the INTERREG process. So, the loss of INTERREG has been a significant blow not just in terms of funding, I would have thought, but I assume also—I'm not putting words in your mouth; tell me if I get all of this completely wrong—in terms of structures as well and a framework within which you can develop the project.

Absolutely right. The advantage of European Union funding is it tends to be longer term, it tends to be—. Well, by definition it's cross-border and it's multidisciplinary. The other sources of funding that we could go to—research councils—are university led, and universities have a much narrower concept of what they want to achieve from the project.

Sorry, but can I stop you there?

Yes, of course.

I assume that's led by Government funding strategies and programmes and frameworks.

Yes, it is. UKRI, UK research—. I don't know what the 'I' stands for. Do you know?

Innovation, I assume.

'Innovation'—you've got it. Thank you.

It's one of their buzz words.

Yes, yes. Which is the umbrella body for the research councils.

Put it in the title to have solved the problem.

So, we are currently involved in small projects that are funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council, and we are making applications at the moment to the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council. We are particularly, at the moment, concerned about the loss of—. Sorry. Climate change has an impact on sustainable buildings and the current practice is to demolish and replace with more sustainable structures. We're interested in retrofitting to see whether existing buildings can be made more sustainable and so we're making an application to the physical sciences research council, who fund that kind of research. But it's small scale and it has to be done with a partner, and the partner tends to, as it were, hog the agenda and the funding. So, often we are earning, maybe—. We get about £10,000 to £12,000 from a six-figure-sum project. We deliver very, very good value for that money, I have to say.

Well, for £6,000 I wouldn't expect it—. [Laughter.] Turning up is enough, you know, so—. How come you get so little? I find that extraordinary.

Without going into the details of the funding of research councils, but, as I say—. You can only apply to a research council if you're a university or what's known as an independent research organisation. We have only one IRO in Wales and that's the national museum, and the national museum has its own research agenda. We don't, at the moment, co-operate with them; that might change. We've applied to the research councils to ask them if they'd accept a consortium funding approach, which is to say ourselves, the National Library of Wales, the Welsh archaeological trusts. You have to have a certain number of research active staff and we're too small to meet that criteria, but if you add together all the heritage bodies in Wales that are doing research, you would get that critical mass. I'm told that the Arts and Humanities Research Council might be prepared to consider that when they launch their new strategy in June. But the sums, as I say, compared to European Union funding, which tends to be longer term, more generous and more multidisciplinary, more sources of expertise not necessarily just within the academic community, the loss of that has been a great blow to us.

We'll come back to you, Alun. Carolyn, for a supplementary.

Just regarding funding still, because it seems so important, do you think that because you're working cross-border with Ireland, by association, then, you might be able to use that European funding across border?

Absolutely, yes. The two projects that we've been involved in have led to such warmth of co-operation and understanding that our Irish partners very much wish to continue the partnership in any way they can possibly find. They see the work that we've done so far as the first step into the foothills; we've still got mountains to climb. So, we are in active discussion at the moment with them, and part of that discussion is exploring sources of funding to continue the work that we're doing.

Okay. On the other replacement funding streams now, the shared prosperity one, and there's another one that seems to have replaced the sense of place funding that was there before, but you have to apply for that through your local councils, I know some of them have gone for—. In Wales, you'd have to work at a different level, then, at that local level through the councils, to see if you could—. Would that be—? Is that an issue, to work at that local level? And then—

It's not—. Yes, I mean, that's—

—it wouldn't match up.

We would explore every source of funding. Where we've encountered the shared prosperity funding stream has been in our work to try and keep churches and chapels in community use. That has been a great source of funding for providing the sorts of facilities for places of worship, like toilets and kitchens, that enable them to provide a service to the community.

Okay. Thank you.

Diolch. Alun, was there anything further that you wanted to ask?

Yes, just to pursue that, because I think, in many ways, Carolyn and I are thinking along the same lines in terms of how you rescue this from the fire, in many ways. We were in Dublin last week and we heard evidence from a number of different sources that Brexit had been an absolute disaster for them as well as for us. We're used to hearing Brexit's a disaster for the UK, but listening to Irish politicians and academics saying how bad it had been for them as well was really quite sobering. So, I'm wondering how you intend to rescue some fat from the fire, as it were, to try to ensure that there is a level of continuity during this period, quite a grim period, of our national life.

That's a very good point. You're almost suggesting that it's a matter of time before we begin to get a much more positive outlook, so we're in a stage at the moment of waiting to see whether Westminster sorts out Horizon, basically. We can't ignore what we have achieved so far, so it feeds into our work, doesn't it, Clare? Your practice guidance that you have produced, tell us a little bit about how you're promoting that.

As the whole project, so, across border, the two countries have produced best practice guidance, which is one of our outputs of our project. But we are introducing that now to all of the members. Actually, it's going on as we speak. It's being introduced to the members of the historic environment working group on climate change. So, it's to get the guidance out there to the policy makers so that they can look at how they can use that, going forward, and it's a legacy of the project we want to leave behind, because we know that the European funding has stopped, so we can't do a second CHERISH.

What I would say on that, as well, is that to develop a project like CHERISH takes an awful lot of time. Because we've been in this limbo, because we didn't know whether there was any funding that we were able to access, the development of a second, follow-on project has not been able to happen within Wales, but I am aware that they are looking at a project, a CHERISH 2 project, in Ireland between the Republic of Ireland and the north of Ireland. So, it just shows that the approach that CHERISH has taken has been very successful; it's just unfortunate that Wales is not able to access the same funding streams as Northern Ireland are with PEACE II.

On the pilgrimage front, the continuity is going to come from the local authorities, from the chambers of commerce and from the British Pilgrimage Trust, which is going to form a Welsh—

Sorry, I'm going to stop you there. Our experience of local authorities is they do not provide that continuity. They look after their own areas, but they don't provide the wider, national view.

They made very positive noises at the launch in early March—

Everybody make positive noises at lauches, but—

I take your point. If it's not a key performance indicator, it does tend not to be top of the agenda.

But, to be fair, why should Carmarthenshire worry about what's going on in Pembrokeshire and the other way around?

Indeed, yes. Absolutely. The wider issue of promoting Wales as a spiritual/faith tourism pilgrimage destination for which it has huge potential will come, I think, from the work of the British Pilgrimage Trust, which brings together and co-ordinates all the many different pilgrimage offers that there are here, and working with the travel trade too to persuade them. With pilgrimage, there are some people who like to set out to Compostela on their own, and there are others who want everything provided for them, and we've got to get the travel trade involved.

Yes. I find this fascinating, sorry,—

It is.

So, what can the Welsh Government be doing?

Ah, Clare. [Laughter.] There is a danger that the heritage sector looks dangerously dependent upon Government funding. That is—

But Horizon and INTERREG were Government funding, so—

Yes, in a sense—

Public funding.

But that's a dedicated—. It's a scheme that exists in order to provide that extra funding, whereas—

Yes, but it's public funding.

—whereas constantly going to Welsh Government and saying, 'We need more capacity, we need more funding,' is going with a begging bowl, and we're competing with much, much more socially important causes like health, education and so on. Basically, capacity. To bring it down to the level of our own organisation, we've not had any increase in funding since 2015, and our costs continue to rise. Our cyber security costs, for example, which didn't exist in 2015, are now costing something like £10,000 a year in terms of the certification that we have to have, and the systems that we need to put in place, and the people we need to employ. So, our capacity has diminished, and I'm very lucky to lead an organisation of people who are incredibly enthusiastic about what they do, and they give a lot for—.

Okay, I understand all of that.

Yes.

But I go back to my question.

Well, it's money.

What can the Welsh Government do? It's simply money, is it?

It's money, yes. Yes.

Okay. And what's the sort of quantum that you're talking about here, because you've used very small sums in your evidence this morning?

In terms of climate change, the sector needs—. There is nobody who co-ordinates all the activities of the sector as a full-time job, and that post would make a tremendous difference. So, we're talking very small amounts of money. We're talking about £70,000, including salaries and on costs.

Okay, right. I'm grateful to you for that. My assumption was that you would also have said capacity in a sort of softer way, so providing help and support and ensuring that Visit Wales actually provides an infrastructure as well, or helps support the provision of the infrastructure.

I have actually started talking to Visit Wales about that. I mean, this is more to do with the pilgrimage side of things than CHERISH. What Wales lacks is the infrastructure that is needed to encourage the travel trade to get involved. I would love Visit Wales to help farm-based and rural businesses—offer training, advice and support for rural businesses to set up the kind of infrastructure that we need.

Thank you so much. We have three minutes left, but there is one crucial question that we wanted to ask, and over to Carolyn for that. Thank you very much for everything you've said so far.

Are you aware of the Wales-Ireland shared statement and joint action plan?

I am, I am.

How is your project involved in the activities in it?

What have I written down here? Having read the shared statement and joint action plan, I felt that it set out the case for co-operation without actually saying how it can be delivered.

Okay, that's [Inaudible.]

I think that's the necessary next step, is a set of concrete actions.

Right, okay. So, not how it's delivered. Okay.

Which tends to be the failing of an awful lot of strategic plans. They set out the case, but they don't actually say what we can do about it and where we want to be in three or five years' time.

Yes. We did discuss that, didn't we? Like, having key indicators of how it's been delivered as well.

Where you want to be and how you're going to get there, and then evaluation along the route so that you know whether you've achieved it.

Okay. So, my second question, supplementary, was how has this benefited your sector, and are there ways it can be improved? So, you've more or less said that, really.

It's benefited me because I have cut and pasted and—what's the word—slightly reworded and edited the content. It's an authoritative document that supports our arguments and our case, so I can lift wordings from it and say, 'Look, Welsh Government, Irish Government regard this as a strategically important issue', and travel and climate change are obviously two of the—they've got chapters of their own within the document.

Okay, and that helps you with your applications for funding.

It does, absolutely it does.

Brilliant. Okay, thank you.

Okay? Diolch. Clare, was there anything that you wanted to add, finally, on that?

No, I think Christopher's covered it all, thank you.

Okay. Lovely, okay.

So, we are one minute ahead of time.

Was there anything else in the final minute that either of you wanted to add that you feel that we haven't covered? There will be a few questions that we will be sending to you in written form, if that's all right, but if there was anything urgent that you wanted to put across to us while you're here—it's fine if not as well.

I think I would just add a plea, yet again, to take climate change more seriously than we are doing at the moment. And I think the United Nations have said that we're very sluggish—not us in Wales, but Governments generally around the world are sluggish in their response.

And I think I'd probably say the same about places of worship—that we're facing the potential loss of an awful lot of places of worship over the next decade or so. It's really important that we encourage the tourism potential that Wales has to attract people to come and see our fantastic churches, our fantastic places of worship, and to walk the pilgrimage routes in the footsteps of the saints that will transform their lives.

Thank you so much. And Clare, just quickly—. Hefin, I know we don't have much time, but would you like to ask the question—? No? You're happy. Okay. Right, well, in that case, Clare, was there anything else that you wanted to add at the end?

No, we'll just wait for the questions—we're anticipating them. [Laughter.]

All right. Well, thank you ever so much.

A transcript of what's been said will be sent.

So, we'll be sending a transcript to you. And, as I said, there may be a few questions that will be sent to you in written form.

Thank you very much for your evidence.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Members, we will now go into private for 10 minutes, and we will be back at 11:40. We will wait to hear that we are in private.

Welcome back. We will now be continuing with our evidence session on Wales-Ireland relations. We are now holding an evidence session with members of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.

I'm going to ask our witnesses, who are joining us virtually, to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to the Right Honourable Karen Bradley first of all.

Hello, yes, I'm Karen Bradley and I am the UK co-chair of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.

Thank you so much, and I'll go to Brendan Smith TD next.

Good morning, Chair. Thanks for the welcome. I'm Brendan Smith, Member of Dáil Éireann for the Fianna Fáil party for the Cavan–Monaghan constituency, and I'm the Irish co-chair of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.

Well, it's a pleasure to have the two of you with us. Thank you so much. If it's all right, we'll go straight to questions. Can I ask you firstly: could you give us an overview, please, of what you feel BIPA's role is and how it contributes to British-Irish relations? And whoever wants to go first, if you want to just—. Shall I go to Karen first?

Shall I kick off? Shall I start with the history, Brendan, and then perhaps you can follow up with the current situation?

Absolutely. Yes, indeed, Karen.

So, the BIPA, the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, is actually older than the Good Friday agreement. There was a group of Members of Parliament, and it was the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the IPU, that was asked to find a way to get Irish and Westminster politicians in a room together talking, as part of the work that was going on on the peace process. So, the British-Irish parliamentary board, I think it was called, was founded in 1992—so, six years before the agreement—and that started the process of getting a common understanding between parliamentarians of the common issues we face, the way that the Troubles affected parliamentarians in both Westminster and the Oireachtas, and fostering those friendships and relationships that helped to make it possible for the leaders, the heads of Government, to come together eventually in 1998 and sign the agreement.

In the 1998 agreement, the role that—. BIPA is effectively created by the 1998 agreement. We existed already, but we are referenced in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which is the Act of Parliament that settles the devolution status of Northern Ireland. In that Act, it talks about there being various institutions that are under strand 3 of the Belfast Good Friday agreement, which is the east-west bit of the Good Friday agreement. There is the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which is heads of Government from Ireland and from the UK. It is the British-Irish Council, which is made up of the heads of Government of all of the legislatures that inhabit the islands of the British isles—so that is the Oireachtas, Westminster and then the Senedd, Holyrood, Stormont, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey—and then the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly is the parliamentarians from those same Parliaments. We are founded in law, we have a constitutional status, and we are there to promote that understanding and to bring people together to examine the common issues we face. Brendan can perhaps tell you a bit more about what we do at the moment.

Yes, absolutely. I agree fully with Karen, and I was actually a member of the body in the early 1990s, up until 2002, and then I became a member of Government so I was off the body for quite a number of years, but at that time, as Karen quite rightly said, relations were very strained between Ireland and Britain, and it was a forum where friendships were developed, and it was possible to build on those friendships. If you take both John Major and Albert Reynolds, the late Taoiseach with us, John Major still talks very fondly of the relationship he had with Albert Reynolds when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer and Albert Reynolds was our Minister for Finance, and that friendship, that knowing one another, helped big time for the Downing Street declaration to be achieved, which led on to the Good Friday agreement.

So, the personal relationships, as we know, are extremely important in politics, and in those early days, we talked about common interests, but in the background was the whole violence and the lack of political progress in Northern Ireland, and I remember some of the British members saying—. Some of them had Irish heritage and naturally, they were interested in Irish affairs. Other members of the body at that time had no connection with Ireland at all, but they had a connection with so many of their young constituents who were losing their lives in Northern Ireland, being victims of the violence, particularly people who served in the British Army and in other services as well. So, from that point of view, you had a broad range of politicians involved in the body, and everybody's determination was that we need to get political progress, we have to have ordinary politics working for the people of Ireland, and for the people of Ireland and Britain.

Nowadays, our work is very much focused, post Brexit, on the parliamentary tier of the relationship between Ireland and Britain. We've also many common concerns, common interests. Our work, then, is divided up into four different committees, and actually there's provision to have six committees of the full British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly established, and Karen and myself are considering the establishment of two more committees. We have one on political and sovereign matters, constitutional issues. One is on European affairs, which is probably outdated, the name of it, now, but it's basically about economic development. There's one on environmental matters, and another committee deals with minority languages and cultural issues.

So, we cover a broad range of topics, and it's actually at committee level that the partnerships and the great friendships are developed, between parliamentarians from all the legislatures. And I think that our foreign Minister here at the moment, our Deputy Prime Minister and former Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, has spoken, as have successive British Prime Ministers in recent years as well, of the absolute need for the parliamentary linkages between Ireland and Britain, and all the legislatures, and for that to be developed. And as Karen has quite rightly said, that's our role in the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, to strengthen, activate even more, and get a better understanding in the wider political community, and among the wider public, of the work we do and what we've been mandated to do by both Westminster and Dublin.

Thank you both so much. That was—. Oh, yes, Karen, of course.

Can I just add as well? I think it's a really important point to make that we can't be quorate as the assembly, we can't meet as the assembly unless we have representation from all of the parliaments and from all parties. So, we fail to be quorate unless we have a real mix of parliamentarians. And that means that we are the only body at the moment that has Members of the Legislative Assembly from Northern Ireland actually able to attend any parliamentary event, because they remain members of our assembly, and that keeps the communication going. And we have people, particularly from the nationalist and the unionist communities, working together on committees, together with committee members from the Senedd, from Holyrood, et cetera. It's incredibly powerful to make people be in that room and get to know each other—not just at the level of parliament to parliament, but also cross-party and cross-designations, which can be so segregating, if you don't force that on people.

That's powerful. Thank you so much. Actually, that leads on very well into what Carolyn Thomas is about to ask.

So, over to you.

Yes, you've probably covered it already a little. It was just how does BIPA take account of the different parliaments in the UK. So, you've touched on that a little by saying that you're not quorate unless you have all the representations from different parliaments. Is there anything else you could add to that?

So, I would just say that the only funding for the assembly comes from Westminster and the Oireachtas. There's no funding that comes from any of the devolved legislatures at this stage. And that does mean that members of those two parliaments have a slightly different status. But one of our committees—committee C, I think it is, or B; sorry, B—is chaired by a Member of the Senedd. Darren Millar is the chair of the committee. And we have got, as I said, members from all the parliaments, including Stormont, which isn't currently sitting. Brendan, I don't know if you want to add.

And also, our steering committee, which is really the executive board of the assembly, comprises of representatives of each of the legislatures. And, basically, we have to sign off the agenda and sign off on the committees that will be established, so we're very conscious that all parliaments, assemblies, are represented, which they are on our steering committee. And we reach agreement at the steering committee on the agenda ahead, what we'll discuss at our plenary sessions, what work we would give to each of the committees as well. So, we're very conscious of reality, with equal representation in decision making.

Thank you. And can you explain the role of BIPA in relation to the British-Irish Council? I think Karen touched on it earlier, but could you explain a little bit more to me?

Do you want to start, Brendan?

Yes. One thing I mentioned to your committee in Dublin last week was that we haven't had the relationship with the British-Irish Council that we need to have. Actually, just a week ago, Karen and I, and our colleagues on the steering committee, had a meeting to discuss the strategy going forward for our assembly, and the agenda for the plenary that will be held in the middle of this month in Jersey.

There hasn't been the parallel working between the British-Irish Council over the years and the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, but, fortunately, two weeks ago, in Belfast, I happened to meet the clerks, the joint clerks to the British-Irish Council, and I said that we needed a meeting to set out a work programme between us. And I think, at Government, and people in politics in general, we don't know enough of what's done at the British-Irish Council. That work is not enough out in the public domain. If those of us who are practising politicians aren't as aware of the work of the British-Irish Council as we should be, then the public have no hope about knowing about its work. So, we believe there's an opportunity there to work in parallel.

Look, we all have the same agenda, to work in best interest of our constituents across both islands. So, from that point of view, we need to improve the working relationship of the British-Irish Council, and I don't think there will be problem there. It's a matter of both the British-Irish Council and us addressing the issue.

Absolutely, and I think it's important to say that the BIC—the British-Irish Council—meets twice a year. There is no scrutiny of it. Certainly in Westminster, it's not really known of, it's not really considered. I don't recall ever seeing a debate in Parliament, in our Parliament about the work of the BIC. When you've got senior Ministers from all of the seven legislatures taking time to attend that council and work together, I think it's important that there is proper scrutiny of that work, and also that it is spotlighted.

BIPA absolutely has a role, and our constitutional committee, committee A, presented a report to us in County Cavan, which was our plenary session in October, where they suggested that we have more of a formal role at the BIC, and that is something that, as a steering committee, we are now pushing forward, to try and get some more of a status, even as an observer, at the BIC, or certainly to receive reports from the BIC that we at the assembly could consider, in much the same way that a select committee in the Senedd will be looking at what the work of the Government is in the Senedd. That is how parliamentary scrutiny works. We are the only body that could possibly scrutinise the work of the BIC in the round, and therefore we feel that there's a role for us.

Thank you.

I think Alun Davies wants to come in with a supplementary on this.

Yes, I think that's a really important statement, Karen. As somebody who's attended the BIC in the past, we have quite often been looking around for something to discuss. We've turned up, had dinner, and read lines to take at each other, and then had lunch and left, and it hasn't actually been a forum where there's been any continuity. The secretariat books our flights and our hotels, but doesn't actually transact work and business, and I think that's a real weakness of the BIC. It seems to be very contrasting to the work of BIPA. I have no experience of it, but it does appear that there's a level of continuity there through its committee structure, which means it's able to deliver on work.

It's an interesting question, Brendan, we sort of touched on last week in Dublin, but do you see how the two structures could be brought together and what that would then look like in terms of learning from each other and working together, across all of our different administrations and legislatures, to actually deliver for all the different people we represent?

Yes, I think Karen just said that the British-Irish Council should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. It comprises of members of the Executives—heads of Government and other members of Government as well—but we should be really the parliamentary tier that's scrutinising its work, because I don't recall debates about the British-Irish Council meeting in Dáil Éireann either. It may occasionally be in general questions to An Taoiseach, the outcome of the discussions of the British-Irish Council or whatever, but there has never been any robust debates to my recollection in regard to the work of the council where it's not addressing issues. So, we could be the parliamentary scrutiny body for the British-Irish Council, and I think that would improve the work of the council when there is scrutiny attached to its role, its work programme, what is being achieved, or what is not being addressed satisfactorily.

And I would add to that. The reason lots of us have been in Belfast over the last few weeks is because we've been marking the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement. The BIC was formed as part of the agreement, and we've spent lots of time talking about how the agreement isn't working on strand 1, which is the devolved Government in Northern Ireland—the institutions aren't there—which means strand 2 can't work, which is north-south, but actually east-west can always work. And unless we are getting the most from the BIC, unless we're getting that level of visibility and scrutiny, then we're failing in our duties to uphold the Good Friday Agreement, which I think all parliaments feel very strongly that that's such a landmark agreement that we should be upholding it and we should be celebrating what we've achieved, and building on the opportunities from that agreement. The BIC is one of those tools to do it, which BIPA can help with.

We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Sorry, I've just—. As Delyth warned at the start, mute and unmute is done virtually.

Just in the context, actually, of what you were just saying, Karen, I find it very interesting that a BIPA committee report on UK-Ireland bilateral relations suggested maximising the potential of those existing structures by, for example, holding more regular meetings and increasing resource. So, in the context of what you've just said about perhaps the limitations that you face, what's your view on the need for closer BIPA, British-Irish Council co-ordination, and how would that work in practice, given that report?

So, the way that the BIC works—and I have attended it as a Minister, as well as being in BIPA, so I'm aware of both sides. BIC works by going around each of the Parliaments, or each of the countries that have a parliament, in the order of the population. So, it starts with the Westminster Parliament hosts, then it goes to the Oireachtas, then it goes to Holyrood, and et cetera, et cetera, and finishes with the Isle of Man. That means there's a good rotation, that everybody gets to host it, and there's an opportunity for every one of those Parliaments, every one of those Governments, to focus on what's important to them at least once every—it's three and a half years, every six months, seven rotations. So, every three and a half years, you get the chance, as a Government, to talk about the things that matter to you to the other Governments within the British isles. That's a really powerful opportunity, particularly for those small Parliaments, particularly for the Crown dependencies in Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. I attended Guernsey and the Isle of Man when I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and it was seen as a real boost to their visibility and their economy to have this big conference coming in. It was a major news story locally; it was something that made a difference to those Governments and allowed them to talk about their priorities, when they're often forgotten. And I shoved my other hat: I chair the House of Commons Procedure Committee. We're looking, at the moment, at how all of the territorial constitution works within the United Kingdom, and, of course, the Crown dependencies, they don't get a say on legislation that's passed in Westminster that has a direct impact on them; these are things that need to be reflected.

Now, going to BIPA, we meet twice a year and we generally meet either in—. It's hosted by Westminster and then by the Oireachtas and then back again. So, we don't have that movement around the nations that we could have, and I think that's something we've talked about: is there a way to have more movement around? Are there opportunities for members of our steering committee or some of our committees that are looking at the issues that are being considered in a BIC to attend those BICs, even just with an observer status? Are there opportunities for us to review the reports from BIC and the conclusions, and for us to look at those and build those into our committee reports? So, I think there are lots of things we can do. We certainly, at BIPA, are working on this now, because we do see the opportunity. And let's be frank, there was a lot more engagement between Ministers when the UK was a member of the European Union, because once every six weeks the Ministers had to meet in Brussels; they just had to, they had no choice. We don't have that now, so we've got to use those existing institutions to make sure that we don't lose those relationships, because if the nations of the British isles aren't working closely together, we're all failing our constituents.

Do you feel, out of curiosity, if there's any paradox? Obviously, you're there to represent the UK and not England; you're on the UK Parliament in that sense. Do you ever feel there's any paradox, perhaps, where colleagues from Holyrood, colleagues from Cardiff Bay, are perhaps pushing an agenda in a slightly different way to perhaps what you would ideally want to do on a UK-wide or English basis?

I haven't seen anything, certainly in my time being involved in BIPA. Brendan, I don't know if you've come across anything.

No, absolutely not, and I saw, in my previous role as an ordinary member of BIPA in the past, participating in committee work and that, oftentimes you could have the Irish member on the same wavelength as the English member, or vice versa, it could be the Welsh—it varied so much. And you may have divided opinion, even, from some of the Irish members, so it never broke down on a national basis; it broke down, often, on the policy issues or the particular view that an individual member took. Committee work or work at plenary level does not break down on the basis of the legislature that you are from—there's absolutely none of that. You would see at times maybe a person, for argument's sake, from the Wales delegation very much taking the same viewpoint as a member from the English delegation, whereas, in the delegation from Westminster, some of those members may not be ad idem on all particular issues. So, there's very much a variety of views on all different issues, and definitely not because you're from such a legislature do you follow a particular path of thinking because a colleague has gone with that. It varies so much, which is a welcome trend through all the workings that I have had over the years on this body; it doesn't break down in that way whatsoever.

I appreciate the point you're making, that there are Members of Parliament that are representing constituencies that also have a devolved legislature. Those Members of Parliament are members of BIPA, if they wish to be. The SNP has to have membership, so we've got Scottish Members of Parliament, as well as Members of the Scottish Parliament. We have Welsh Members of Parliament. We also have Members of the House of Lords, who don't have constituencies, but quite a number of them are Northern Irish, so that means that Northern Ireland does get a voice perhaps amplified more than it might be if we just looked at the MLAs who are members of BIPA. We've had Members of Parliament from Northern Ireland and Members of the House of Lords. It doesn't feel in any of the meetings I've been to that there is a conflict there. There may be a conflict on policy because of our political differences, but it's not because of where we represent.

Thank you. And one final thing: we've talked a lot, I think, in the session so far about formal structures and committees, and so on. Can you just speak about the importance of how BIPA has built those informal relationships, and what role they play in the development of future UK-Irish relationships?

Do you want to kick off, Brendan?

Yes. I said earlier about my membership in the early 1990s, prior to serving in Government, and I have to say that the personal relationships are absolutely critical. Some of the people who would have been members of BIPA alongside me went on to serve in Government, and then we were colleagues on the Council of Ministers, at different times, and on other international fora as well. I don't think we can ever quantify enough the value of the personal relationships that are developed across nations, as in our assembly—absolutely important. And a good personal relationship helps to have a better working relationship as well.

I remember listening to civil servants who were involved in the negotiations leading to the Good Friday agreement. They will always say that there was a very good atmosphere at public service level, at official level, because there was a good working relationship between John Major and Albert Reynolds, succeeded then by Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern. So that positive, 'friendly' relationship and trust as well between different parliamentarians, or different governments as well, is absolutely essential in making progress and understanding the other person's point of view and having that trust and generosity towards the other person's concerns. That was a key ingredient in achieving the Good Friday agreement. I know it's not the Good Friday agreement we're discussing today, but it's an iconic international agreement that we can all learn from—how it was achieved by the good working relationship between governments, and by the trust between leaders, which then filtered down right into that relationship at official level as well.

The real power of BIPA is the physical meetings that we have. When we were in Dublin last week, discussing what we could do differently, there were people who'd been in BIPA prior to the pandemic, saying, 'These were things we were talking about in 2018, 2019, and we never progressed them', and that was because we weren't physically in a room together. I think one of the things I would say, just as a best practice point, is that, when we've met in Westminster, we have tended to meet in the building of Westminster, because it's free to us—it doesn't cost any money, it's just the accommodation for those people who do have to stay over that we pay for, we're not paying for the room. Actually, though, we lose so much, because the Westminster politicians pop out for a vote, and they go and take part in a debate, and they have a committee meeting that they need to pop into to make sure that they’ve attended. We are much, much more powerful when we go, as we did in October, to County Cavan, to Brendan’s constituency, and stay in a beautiful country house hotel. We were very, very privileged to stay there, but it was the fact we were there in the building together, we were forced to be with each other. You’re having a breakfast with your colleagues, you are seeing them in the bar after the dinner, you’re having coffee with them—you can’t just disappear off and have a vote. You are there physically, totally engaged. I would say that the lesson for me is we have to make sure that when BIPA meets, it meets somewhere where we all have to be there, and be engaged in BIPA rather than thinking about other things—inevitably, as parliamentarians, we all end up with many other things on our plate at any one time.

Diolch. Thank you for that. Tom, are you happy for us to move on? Great.

We will move on to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Good morning, both. I’ve already declared an interest as someone that represents the Senedd on BIPA, and I can see my colleagues thinking that I have a very tough gig after what you described in terms of the last meeting, but I’m looking forward to Jersey. Can I ask you to perhaps reflect on your view of the impact, if any, of Brexit on the role and place of BIPA?

I would say it makes the role of BIPA all the more important, because it’s that point that I mentioned earlier. Our MEPs were sitting together in Brussels, our Ministers were meeting very regularly in Brussels, and now we have to use the existing structures, I would suggest, that we have for those east-west relations all the more to make sure that we continue those relations. Because we’ve seen with things like the Northern Ireland protocol—. I don’t want to get into the politics of it, but relations became strained. Actually, in BIPA, we’ve sat down, we discussed the Northern Ireland protocol back in October, we were looking for suggestions and solutions, and I think we helped to create an atmosphere in our Parliament where there was more understanding that everyone was affected by these issues. It wasn’t just one party in one part of the United Kingdom or in one part of these islands; it was everybody who was affected by it, and we needed to find a solution. It created that will, I think, Brendan—we had a really good conversation about it in Cavan, didn’t we?

Absolutely. One thing, Heledd, is that perhaps we took for granted the bilateral relationships because they were practiced on a daily basis. If Ministers weren’t meeting at European tables, officials were, so there was at least daily contact on a multiple basis every working day between Irish and British officials and Ministers as well. With Brexit, I think we have to practice our bilateral relationships on a different basis. I know, speaking for our Government here, Micheál Martin, as the Taoiseach in 2020, has spoken very, very strongly—and his successor, Leo Varadkar, would share the same view, I’m sure—that we need to intensify the parliamentary tier between all the legislatures, because of the vacuum that has been created with Brexit. Our body has been identified and, as Karen said, it’s in the Northern Ireland Act, it was mentioned in the Good Friday agreement as well, that it’s the parliamentary tier to strengthen and develop the bilateral relations between all the legislatures. We have that mandate to do that now.

I suppose one thing—and I think I mentioned it when we met last week in Dublin—that we discussed is our own Parliaments don’t know enough about the work of our assembly. One thing that we discussed was that both the co-chairs would give maybe a report to either committees of each of the legislatures or, if there was an opportunity, to address a full house. We have two houses, as you know; we have the Dáil and then we have the Seanad. I know provision can be made for Karen and myself to make a full report and participate in a debate in Seanad Éireann. That’s not possible in Dáil Éireann. What we would like—and Karen just discussed this briefly—is that if it is not possible to speak to a full Assembly, Parliament, Senedd or whatever, at least we'd have the opportunity to participate in person in a committee, presenting the annual report of our assembly. Because I have to say, speaking for my own Houses of the Oireachtas here, most people wouldn't be anywhere near up to date with the breadth of what we do or what we're engaged on on an annual and on a daily basis.

Thank you very much. If I may just pick up on that final point, in terms of committee work, then, in particular, obviously, those are often cross-party, cross-Parliament recommendations. Do you think there's an opportunity for greater scrutiny in terms of how those recommendations are then perhaps taken forward by each of the respective Parliaments?

One of the things we discussed last week in the steering committee was the responses we get from Government, because we do give our committee reports to Government, but we don't always get very comprehensive responses. Where is the scrutiny of what Government is doing to implement what our recommendations are? How can we work with our existing committees within our legislatures to push that? How can we make sure that, when there are issues, new legislation that will affect all of the legislatures that make up BIPA, we do have the opportunity to properly scrutinise them within BIPA? There's a level of dissatisfaction within the steering committee around the interaction with Government and the Government implementing what we recommend, or at least telling us why they're not going to implement it.

Diolch.

Perhaps BIPA would be willing to give an annual report to this committee in the Senedd, if we could put that forward. I don't know how that formally could be put into any process, but I think there would be willingness and eagerness here to receive that if that would be something you'd be interested in providing.

What we thought would work is—. We've got a team now—well, I say 'team'; we've got some expert advisers—from both the Oireachtas and from Westminster, and we've asked them to go and have a look at what we can do to have an annual report from BIPA, on the back of which we make sure there is some form of debate in each of our Parliaments. That might be a debate on the floor of the House of Commons, it might be on the floor of the House of Lords, it might be a presentation to a committee. It's whatever's most appropriate. Each Parliament has its own procedures, and it wouldn't be right to define and to be restrictive in terms of what BIPA recommends, but I think we can all see an opportunity in each of our legislatures for a report to be made from the Members of that legislature who are also members of BIPA. I think that's the great thing—that, actually, everywhere there will be a member of BIPA as well, and they can help to make that report.

I think, Karen, as well, that we asked our support staff to contact the offices of the Speakers of each of the legislatures as well to see what was the best way to bring forward this reporting process, if we want to call it a reporting process, but, absolutely, to have engagement and have a debate on the work of BIPA, at least on an annual basis.

Diolch. Thank you very much. Back to Heledd, if there was anything else you wanted to—. No. We'll go to Alun Davies in a moment, but is there anything else that you'd like us to reflect on in terms of any increased work that the Senedd itself as an institution could do? You were talking earlier about improving the relationships with the British-Irish Council. Is there any involvement that you think could be increased for the Senedd in that, or in anything else that you've been talking about?

First of all, at steering committee level, we're going to have engagement with the British-Irish Council and lay out the type of parameters that we would like to see. Then we will bring that back to the full membership, so maybe the individual membership from the Senedd then could talk to yourselves about how you could support our work in that respect. But I think the first engagement that we need to have is directly, Karen and myself, with BIC and the co-clerks of that particular council, and then we'll come back to our full steering committee, then report to the full membership, and then your own membership from the Senedd of our assembly could talk to yourselves then about how we could progress the common interests that we all have of having a better relationship with BIC.

I think the other thing that we did talk about last week was new legislation coming through, and I appreciate that it generally is Westminster that does things that impact on the whole of the British isles much more than any of the devolved legislatures do. But there will always be things, so we've been talking about whether we could have more thematic meetings of BIPA, and perhaps. Let me give you the example of energy and climate change: we could well see ourselves having a thematic discussion about energy and climate change at one of the future BIPA assemblies. At that point, it's really important that we all understand what the legislation and proposals are from each of the legislatures, because they could have an impact on each other, and I think—. Somebody put it to me, a member of a devolved legislature put it to me that we're all—using a rugby analogy—everybody is in the scrum, and you're all too busy in the scrum to look around and see what's going on on the wing and the back and everything else, and you're too busy on your day job. And actually, BIPA can provide a forum in which we open up the wider spectrum; we can show that actually, there is this piece of legislation going through, let's say, Hollyrood, which could have an impact, potentially, on other parts of the islands that comprise the British isles, but we don't know about it, because we're not having those discussions. There isn't a natural forum for us to be debating those things that could have an impact on each other, and BIPA could provide that forum.

Forgive me, but the scrum analogy is one that I enjoyed. Thank you for that.

We'll move to Alun Davies.

I'm very interested by that, Karen. The visit that this committee undertook to Dublin last week was to look at how we can deepen and strengthen links between Wales and Ireland, and to hold the Welsh Government to account as to what it's doing. And part of the conversation—Brendan was a part of our conversation in the Dáil, and we're very grateful to him and his colleagues for the time they spent with us—was about how we can deepen the understanding of each other. We will always have political differences, and that's how it should be, of course. But what I found, and you've referred to this in an earlier answer, is that, since Brexit, we've actually almost lost interest in each other, and we've certainly lost contact with each other, and as a consequence of that, we don't share experience in a way that perhaps we did before, and share what our ambitions are for different things. And as has been said earlier, quite often, when you share those ambitions and ideas, you can actually lose a sense of who somebody is, in terms of their political background or where they're sitting. And those conversations I've always found to be very fruitful, and very important.

So, I'm interested—and you've both, in different ways, described how you want to see BIPA develop in the future, and I think this committee would be very supportive of that and supportive of what you've said—but you were meeting last week in Dublin, and I'm just interested to understand how that conversation panned out, and how much you can share with us this morning about what those actual plans are. Brendan, you've spoken about BIPA acting as a parliamentary inter-institutional parliamentary body, scrutinising BIC, and I think that's quite an interesting concept, but BIC, of course, is not an executive body, so I'm not sure how that actually would work in practice.

So, those sorts of themes are what I'm really interested in in understanding how we can take this forward. Because it might well be for me that BIPA could act as a sort of umbrella body for our existing committees within our existing Parliaments, to actually work together on different issues. For example, this committee could look at language policy in Ireland and Scotland, where I know we've got a lot to learn from each other.

Do you want to start, Brendan?

Yes. Alun, thanks in regard to your meetings in Dublin, which I found very beneficial as well. You know from BIC, whether it's the British–Irish Intergovernmental Conference, or the British-Irish Council, generally, communiqés are well finalised before the meetings actually take place. We all know that; that's the nature of meetings at summit level, at heads of Government level, and at ministerial level as well. A lot of the discussions are finalised before the formal political finale happens. The British-Irish Council, naturally, it's the broad general issues, it's not the minutiae. So, I think what we need to be debating as well, if there's a British-Irish Council communiqué on climate change, the whole agenda for climate change, all of those issues, the environmental issues we need to be pursuing, if there's a communiqué emanating from the British-Irish Council, then we should have the opportunity to discuss those issues. Maybe we could see some issues of concern to our legislatures arising from those communiqués that would be signed off at heads of Government level or at ministerial level anyway. So, it is Executive from that point of view—it's Government participation, it's not parliamentary participation.

So, I think that if these issues are being discussed at inter-governmental level, then there's an important role for us as an inter-parliamentary assembly to be discussing the outcome of the discussions that our respective Governments have had at a British-Irish Council level. Because their discussions are at macro level, by and large, not micro level, so, I think the opportunity is there for us to scrutinise—in inverted commas—but to challenge the outcomes or to challenge the Governments to go further on particular issues or to challenge the particular route that they're signalling that they wish to go on, working together as Governments.

I would add that BIPA doesn't have a constitutional status that gives us parliamentary privilege, for example. So, we are a parliamentary assembly. We do have a legal basis for existing, but we don't have parliamentary privilege. But I always find it easier to think about these things with specific examples. So, let's look at energy and climate change. Now, do we all know when combustion engines are going to be phased out in each of our respective nations? I don't think we do. But there will be an implication. So, if one part of the legislatures that make up BIPA is going for a radically different date for phasing out combustion engines, that has an impact on everybody, because there's nothing to stop you crossing a border and buying a car somewhere else, and that's true in all of our nations. We may have some islands there, like Jersey and Guernsey, but, actually, you can get between them; there aren't the checks that there would be because of the common travel area. And so, we need to understand something like, as I say, the phasing out of combustion engines so that we can—not to influence; not to change a Government's position, an Executive's position, but to understand it and to be able to reflect that in debates that we have in our Parliaments and to reflect that in the discussions we have with Ministers and what we say to our constituents.

So, I think it's that level of understanding and that just being able to scan the horizon slightly more than we can do if we're just sitting, looking at our own order of business and what's coming up in the next—. I think that most members find it difficult to know what's going to be debated tomorrow, never mind what's being debated in other Parliaments around the British Isles. And BIPA can give that visibility, it can give that—. And it can make us understand the implications of what we're doing on other Parliaments and as other parliamentarians and other constituents around the British Isles.

I very much endorse that. I think it's a very strong rationale for what we're looking at. In previous answers, I think you mentioned that BIPA might be looking at expanding its work from four committees to six, I think you said. I was just wondering which areas would you be looking towards focusing upon, if you were looking to widen that work stream.

So, we can have a maximum of six committees—that's under our constitution. We have four at the moment. I think, as Brendan said, one of those committees is called 'European Affairs', and one of the things we said at the steering committee was, 'Was that the right title for it?' And so, I think what we've said is that we want to just review the scope of each of our committees and see whether, actually, there's duplication or crossover and whether there need to be more committees, perhaps even ad hoc committees. So, if there was a big piece of regulatory—. I mean, data protection—here's one example. We might decide, and I'm not saying we will, but we might decide that the data protection regimes are now diverging more than they should for the purposes of business and individuals being able to manage their businesses. Do we as BIPA want to set up a sub-committee to do some specific work on data protection and how it works around—? [Interruption.] Don't worry about that, it's just the bells to tell me prayers are starting; I've not got to go and vote yet. So, that would just be one example where we might do it. We haven't decided what the other committees might be, but we do think we need to just look at this point at the committees we've got, check we've not got overlap, and whether there are specific issues that we might want to set up an ad hoc committee on.

Okay. So, you're having the conversation at the moment. I don't want to press you too hard on that, because I recognise that live conversations are taking place and it would be difficult for you to describe in detail what those conversations are—I accept that. Do you have a timescale for having these conversations by which time you feel you would be in a position to actually make a statement on how you see BIPA developing in the coming years?

Well, actually, at our plenary meeting in Jersey on the fifteenth, we will be having a general discussion on strategy for the future, and the committee work, the scope of the committees and the establishment of new committees—all of that will be discussed and finalised at that particular meeting. So, we're talking, roughly, in two weeks' time, having an outline of the work programme, if we want to call it that, and what new committees we might establish and the particular remit of those committees. As Karen said, it might be a subject with a finite time to address a particular issue that has arisen now and that's of concern to all the nations involved, but we're going to be flexible on that. But, again, we will be bringing that to the full plenary meeting in Jersey.

Okay, thank you. Thanks very much.

Thank you. We will move to Hefin David.

With an eye on the future, and BIPA's future plans, can you give us some advice, as experienced parliamentarians, on how this committee could work to maximise Wales-Ireland relations, and also how we could fit in with your future plans?

I'll just take that. You mentioned the Wales-Ireland relationship; I think you had a number of meetings in the Oireachtas, in our Dáil and the Seanad last week. The meeting I participated in myself I found very useful, and I spoke to colleagues who attended other meetings and they found them similarly useful. I think our Consul General has been at your committee, I think. We need to do that work at a parliamentary level, and once work is initiated at parliamentary level, we know that at official level, stock is taken—. Oftentimes, the official level doesn't listen to the parliamentarians, but at least they have to engage in the issues that we are discussing at parliamentary level. So, at official level, I would see a parallel process. I think that's very important as well. But again—and I'm just speaking from an Irish point of view—there is a determination to strengthen the relationships post Brexit very much.

I think one of the things, and it goes back to Alun's earlier question in regard to the knowledge about the issues across the islands—. I know that, having participated in a number of Council of Ministers meetings, having held different offices in Government in the past, by participating in meetings—and that went for the political representation but also for official level—you knew broadly what were the general issues across the European Union, so we would be conscious of what were the issues that the British Government Minister was bringing to the table, and by and large, we might have some differences on some major issues, but by and large, we were the closest working colleagues at the European Council. That went for political level and official level as well. And similarly, it was a very strong working relationship. We would be very much supporting Britain in a lot of its endeavours. Similarly, we got the same strong support as well from the British Government representative as well. That good working relationship was there. It was across, you could say, 90 per cent of issues that arose at Council of Ministers meetings and similarly at official level as well. So, at political level, we can do so much, and in parallel, these relationships need to be strengthened at official level.

The reopening of the consulate in Cardiff—that's important as well. And I think a message has been given out. We have strengthened our diplomatic representation in the north of England as well. I think that's a clear message at Government level, and I think at Government level and parliamentary level, we're all going in the same direction of strengthening relationships. And I was very conscious in the negotiations that were leading up to Brexit, when I listened to the House of Commons Brexit committee that Hilary Benn chaired—. And I remember some of the members, I think, from Wales, Scotland and England being on that committee. And I remember being struck by how dependent the ports in Wales were on Irish business. So, all of that relationship showed the very strong business and trading relationship between Ireland and Wales. I know that the ports have not the same level of Irish business as they had in the past, but I think there's the opportunity there again to grow business in other ways as well.

I should say I've heard some really good things about the visit last week. I'm sorry, I couldn't make it, but unless I had brought my five-year-old and seven-year-old daughters along, I wouldn't have been able to get there. But it did seem like a very positive visit. Karen, over to you.

Just on that point about the cross-Irish sea trade, prior to Brexit, over 60 per cent of the exports from Northern Ireland to Great Britain went through Dublin into Holyhead. So, that was such an important route, because it was the only route that, actually, you could get fresh produce to the south-east of England without needing an overnight stop for the driver.

I suppose the other thing I just wanted to say, and it links to the point that Brendan made—. So, I'm very involved in the Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association as well, and, at the IPU, Ireland and the UK sit in the same grouping, the Twelve Plus grouping, and we work really closely together. It's very, very rare that when we're talking about an issue—. I can't think of a single occasion when we've talked about an issue at the IPU where Ireland and the UK have not been absolutely united, particularly when we've been talking about Ukraine and the invasion by Russia, and we've been pushing forward to get resolutions at the IPU to condemn the Russian action. The Irish and the UK parliamentarians have worked together so closely it's been unbelievable.

Obviously, the CPA allows for members of the devolved legislatures to be part of the discussions, but Ireland is not part of that. So, BIPA is the only one of these bodies that allows there to be that Wales-Ireland connection, which means that there's active work and active relationship-building at least twice a year. So, I think we've got a really important role to play, and Wales-Ireland, Wales-Scotland—sorry, Ireland-Scotland, Ireland-Jersey, Ireland-Guernsey—. This is the only body that allows for that regular contact to happen.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much for that. Well, I'm aware that we're two minutes shy of our allotted time. So, I won't go down any other rabbit holes, but was there any other principle thing that either of you as witnesses would have wanted to get across to us, that you'd like us to be keeping in mind throughout our inquiry, that hasn't already arisen this morning?

I don't think it's not arisen, but I just can't make it clear enough that continued dialogue and conversations and meetings are vital for all of the nations that are represented at BIPA. It's far too easy to forget the implications of what you're talking about in your parliament on others. The Minister, Steve Baker, came to address us in County Cavan, and it was just after he'd made his statement that he hadn't considered—and I paraphrase—he hadn't considered enough the impact on the people of Ireland of the decisions that had been taken in Westminster with regard to Brexit. And that was a very powerful thing he said, and he came and repeated it to us at County Cavan. He stayed for the whole of that plenary session, and for the evening and stayed and had dinner with us. And I think that if there'd been more of those conversations and more emphasis on that prior to the decision to leave the European Union—and I'm not going to get into the whys and wherefores of that; it's a decision that was taken and it's happened—but if that had happened, perhaps there might have been fewer stumbles along the way in terms of our relationship. And to have good relationships at heads of government is essential across all of our parliaments and executives, and they will be fostered and facilitated by good relationships at the parliamentary level.

I agree totally with Karen, and I think Steve Baker was very forthright to us, publicly and in private conversations, over those two days in Cavan. But, I tell you, he echoed very strongly the warnings. His new viewpoint echoed very strongly the warnings that both John Major and Tony Blair had given when they went to Derry, I think it was, or Belfast, and they spoke about the downside of Brexit as they would see it if 'yes' was voted by the electorate in that referendum.

We cannot ever value enough the importance of parliamentary personal relationships. That working relationship, that daily interaction at political and official level that there was between British and Irish officials on the European stage and other international fora as well, we have to try to replace that and we have to do that at parliamentary level. It's an obligation on all of us, from our different legislatures, to work together as inter-parliamentary assemblies and through working together as committees as well. I think the value of committees from the different legislatures meeting each other is often undervalued as well. Sometimes our political systems, with whips and votes et cetera, don't take due recognition of the fact that we need to be out meeting our colleagues from other legislatures near often enough. I think we're not doing enough in the Oireachtas, and I presume you would all share that same viewpoint. Greater parliamentary engagement across these islands will be for the better of all our respective constituents.

Well, the note on which you've both left that there I think is a very powerful one, so thank you, both, ever so much for your evidence. We found that very, very useful. A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you to check that it's an accurate reflection of what has been said. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you again very much for your evidence. It's been a pleasure to speak to you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. Goodbye.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Members, we will now move on.

Thank you again.

Thank you very much again.

Thank you, Chair.

And I move, under item 8, under Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, if Members are content to do so. I take it that you are, so I will wait to hear that we're in private.