Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Welcome back to this meeting of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee. We're moving on to the next item on the agenda, which is to hear further evidence on electric vehicle charging. Councillor Andrew Morgan, who is leader of the Welsh Local Government Association and leader, of course, of Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, has sent his apologies. He's had to return to his council area because of the weather conditions. We have, of course, accepted his apologies this morning. But joining us in the room this morning we have Geoff Ogden, who is chief transport planning and development officer with Transport for Wales, and Roisin Willmott, who's director of Wales and Northern Ireland and Planning Aid England at the Royal Town Planning Institute. A very warm welcome to you. We'll go straight to questions.

We'll move straight in to questions, if that's okay, and I'll kick off, if I may. The Welsh EV charging strategy vision is that car and van users should be confident about accessing the charging infrastructure that they need, when they need it, by 2025. I'm interested to know what confident looks like, but also how, maybe, we would best be able to measure that success. Maybe, Geoff, if you want to kick off.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everybody. Bore da. If I refer to the evidence that was provided by the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales for the committee, I think a number of critical success factors are outlined in terms of confidence, and they range from ability to access charging points; that those charging points are resilient and working; that they, from an accessibility point of view as well, are accessible in that sense as well; that we are able to provide information to users about where these things are and that they are working correctly; that people know the forward plans that are coming in terms of the chargers; and a number of other features as well. I think, if we view those as qualitative pieces, then I think there is a need to create some KPIs that will indicate those. At the moment, in terms of the monitoring and evaluation framework for the Wales transport strategy, there are a couple of KPIs in there that cover electric vehicles. But I think we'd be really interested to see what comes out of this committee in terms of what the views are as to how those things measure up. Because the two that are in there at the moment, I think, are provision of EV charge points in terms of overall numbers, and then actually the take-up of electric vehicles as a whole. So, they are fairly high level, I would say. We do need to develop some further KPIs, I think, in terms of the inputs to that, and achieving those objectives. But I would say that those critical success factors, to me, feel like the right sort of things to be building those performance indicators around.

Are we able to say in any way that confidence is improving in terms of accessing infrastructure? Because to reach a point where people feel that by 2025—. You know, it's two years away.

I think there are indications that there is some confidence increasing. If we look at things like Zap-Map, then some of the feedback that comes through there is relatively good. I don't know what other evidence you've heard from others this morning, and whether they've said anything in that sense that would be different to that, but I would also say that I think there's a lot more that we can do in terms of creating that confidence with good news stories, with visibility of how these things are being deployed. I think it was in the Scottish Power evidence that they talked about even just getting out some information about how using some of the Ofgem funding to support the investment in infrastructure will help to create that forward visibility that actually, 'I can rely on having an electric vehicle at some point in the future and using it'.

Thank you. Joyce.

Good morning, both. We're interested to know whether the delivery of the Welsh EV charging strategy vision is on target. We've heard evidence that EV Cymru has commented that charging provision is clearly inadequate for both quantity and patterns of use, and that the recent growth is from a very low base.

I think there is a big challenge, and it's a big challenge in that there are a number of moving parts in terms of the way the electric vehicle industry is evolving, and the role that the public sector will play in that in terms of provision of charge points and the other things that take place. Between the Welsh Government and ourselves, we have been looking at this over the last few months, whilst we've been doing early work in terms of roll-out, to actually establish what the role of the public sector should be going forwards, and we're currently reviewing that with the Welsh Government at the moment. I'm not quite sure when the next of these sessions will be, but there might be the ability to say more about what the content of that looks like.

Essentially, there is a need to focus on some key areas—so, things like en-route chargers; things like destination chargers; actually the private sector very much taking the lead in the roll-out and the public sector providing the infill. That's a challenge to actually work out where that infill will take place. There's the development of tools that we believe will help with that engagement. There's been a lot of engagement taking place with the distribution network operators and the charge point operators. In fact, there have been sessions back in November with the charge point operators—one-to-one sessions—to understand actually how those different things play out, so that we can understand what role the public sector should have in it. So, a focus on things like the en-routes, as I say, the destination, and then a big piece around actually the quality side of what's been delivered, particularly in other areas, like on-street charging.

There is a challenge, absolutely; 2025 is on the doorstep and 2030 is not that far away. We need to, as we were saying in the first piece, develop that confidence and give that confidence to the market, to customers and users to do that.

We heard earlier that there needs to be a better partnership between the private and public sector, and you've mentioned that already. How is that progressing?

I think, in terms of the KPIs, if we refer back to that, there were four others suggested with the charge-point operators public-private forum of some sort, with the distribution network operators in terms of the wider network and the synergies there. I think, in terms of the evidence that's been provided, it's about setting those up. I think those do need to be set up pretty soon. What I would say is that there has been a huge amount of engagement on a one-to-one basis informally, but I think actually bringing that to bear and looking at some of the challenges to get the insights of how these things are being rolled out from a private sector point of view and really understand how we fit into that. That is taking place, but I think it can only be supported by having those formal forums in place.

Yes. And—Chair, if I can—you mentioned destination use, but of course if you purely do that—. I live in Pembrokeshire, a high-destination area that would probably be served well, but there would be other areas that are local destinations with local populations that are small, they won't be served so well. So, could you give some reassurance, because we're talking about confidence here, to those areas, that they won't be left behind?

I think things like the rural pathway that's in development, and I think there are some plans to publish that in the very near future, I think that will cover things like that. Seeing the EV charging network as part of the wider transport network, too. So, actually, we're doing a lot of work in Transport for Wales about railway stations. I know that doesn't necessarily deal with everything you've said in terms of challenges there, but actually we do need to look at these things as part of the overall transport system. And there has been work as well around the funding from UK Government for on-street chargers, and actually I think the Welsh Government had offered for some local authorities, where actually there was a balance of match funding to be made and that match funding didn't quite work in certain areas, to actually step in and redress some of that balance to help out. So, I think the confidence I can give is that it's an issue that is known about and it is part of that wider transport agenda that we need to deal with.

But isn't that funding about to finish? That's what we were told.

I don't know, to be honest. I can go away and check that.

Okay. Yes, that's fine. Thank you. Janet, did you want to come in on this area of questioning?

Yes. I don't know whether you've touched on this, but why has the infrastructure deployment been faster in Scotland and England than Wales?

I think Scotland adopted a model, as I understand it, where they created a free-to-use charge-point network and rolled that out very quickly. But I think there is now a challenge, which I think the Scottish Futures Trust has done a report on, that actually there are challenges in terms of that, in that if it's free to use, the private sector now stepping in. Everybody is learning about this, so I'm not criticising Scotland, because there is risk in taking these steps, but learning along the way, too, and I think Scotland—. That's one of the reasons they've gone quickly on it, but if that's not addressed now, that could slow them down in terms of next steps because of the private sector coming in, whereas our approach has been very much to do the early stages of public investment in as safe a way as possible, but also to look at how we then maximise the opportunities with the private sector. So, I go back to that point made a few minutes ago: I think the thing around the fora with the private sector is very important.

In terms of England, I think it's more of a mixed picture. I haven't got the data in front of me, but the south-east of England would be well served, and I guess it depends in terms of the investment that's going in and the ability to buy EVs, et cetera, et cetera, but in other places, less progress than us in Wales. So, I think in that case it's mixed.

Yes, and I think the distribution point was made in an earlier session, that it can skew the overall picture, really. Janet?

Yes, and, you know, a lot of the rolling out of this infrastructure is dependent on the local authorities, and even organisations such as Transport for Wales. How confident are you that they have the powers, the tools, and indeed the resources to be able to do this?

So, I think—. It's a good question and I made a note on this; I'm just trying to find it.

I'm not so sure there's an issue in terms of powers, and actually, if you look across the piece in terms of the resources and the skills, they're probably there too, but it does rely on everybody working collaboratively and making sure that the right organisations are doing the right things. So, we would be very reliant on the charge-point operators to do design, planning, et cetera, and then obviously, maintenance and operation. We continue to look at that with the charge-point operators in terms of their capacity to do those things alongside what we're aiming to do. And, again, I go back to the thing earlier about having those formalised fora in place will help that, I think. So, I don't see it as a huge issue, albeit there is a challenge there to be addressed. But if everybody can come together on it, I think it can be managed.

But what about your role in terms of bringing people together and driving this? Excuse the pun. Because clearly, we've seen it happen in other public sector realms. Natural Resources Wales: they've been thrown a large number of additional responsibilities and duties, and big questions about their capacity to deliver on those. My fear is that Transport for Wales becomes—and I've used this term previously—a sort of 'Natural Resources Wales on wheels'. So, is that something that you're mindful of or conscious of, or concerned about?

Absolutely mindful of and that's why I go back to the engagement we're having with Welsh Government at the moment in terms of what the plan does look like going forward, in terms of how much resource we will require in the public sector, how much will be required in the private sector to do that. At Transport for Wales, a few months ago, we introduced a new operating model, and as part of that, the team associated with EV came into my part of the business, and I'm looking at the strategic planning around the metros, working with the local authorities on their regional transport plans, et cetera, et cetera. So, it feels like it's in the right place to have that success, but I'm not dismissing the challenge at all.

It may be the right place, but obviously, there's a long list there, isn't there?

Yes.

And not insignificant items.

But a joined-up list as well that does need to be thought about together.

Yes. Okay. Sure. Okay, thank you for that. Of course, we've already seen that a number of KPI deadlines haven't been met: I've got establishing the connections group, a building regulations review, development of the national procurement standard, establishment of the charge-point operator group. It doesn't auger well, does it, really? And, as well, people have been saying that some of those targets were rather unambitious. So, does that cause a bit of concern for you?

So, I think, looking at the KPIs, they're good to start off with, okay? They are the right things that need to happen now, but going back to that piece about the future, I think we do need to work with the Welsh Government to establish a forward set and a plan.

I refer back to the piece about doing things in the early stages, learning the lessons now. We've got to remember that when the public sector's getting involved in these things, it's because, actually, there are challenges in terms of it getting delivered by others. So, I won't necessarily say we're picking up the most difficult things, but every one of these places where we're doing this has a challenge.

I think learning the lessons, so having this service desk put in place, bringing that to bear, helping local authorities, helping the DNOs, helping the charge-point operators and others to understand, and us understanding more about what's needed, is absolutely critical to it. I think alongside that delivery, establishing that strategy is really critical to me. So, making sure we're doing the right things and then we're doing them as efficiently as possible is important. So, yes, we're taking that time now, and, as I say, engaging with Welsh Government, and I would hope that that effort that we've put in now will mean we reap the rewards in the longer term in terms of making things slicker over a longer period.

But, also, I guess what I want to say on that is because this is a dynamic environment that this is being delivered in, we need to be agile on that too. This is not a waterfall approach of establishing, 'Right, that's where we're going and that's it for ever more.' We need to keep our mind on that and recognise when things are changing and shift and adapt to suit.

Yes, that's an important point. Okay, thank you. Right, we want to focus on grid infrastructure, which comes up regularly in these discussions, so, Janet, do you want to start on that?

Thank you, Chairman. So, we all know, when we speak about renewable energy or anything, that there are some quite serious grid capacity concerns in Wales. How do you think this is going to constrain EV charging infrastructure deployment and how you believe the Welsh Government, TfW and local authorities are collaborating with DNOs and charge-point operators to address this? Also, why does the grid continues to be a concern, given, for example, SP Energy Networks's written evidence on the scale of investments being made, and does the apparent failure to establish the connection group impacts on grid planning? Speaking earlier in the earlier session, there was a lot of momentum placed on the fact that we could do things differently with more local community grid infrastructures—microgrids. How do you feel about those kinds of initiatives, going forward?

So, there are two things there, aren't there, there's the grid as it is and then the potential of greater innovation, really, so maybe addressing both of those.

I think the grid as it is, it's an excellent challenge, and I did have a chance to have a quick look at some of the other written evidence that was put in. This is part of a much bigger picture of requirements on the grid. We work very closely with the Welsh Government energy service. I think the planning that's taking place around—I've forgotten what they're called now—local energy plans and regional energy planning are critical to this. From our point of view, that does mean giving visibility of what the requirements are across the transport network, so that's the part that we can play, a big part that we can play in that. But there is a challenge there. I go back to the comment about the connections group. Again, I think there's a real opportunity for us to formalise that and get that in place, so, actually, you've got all the right people around the table, rather than it necessarily being on a one-to-one basis, and taking that approach.

Sorry, I've—it was potential for community. I think, again, there, probably that is something where more emphasis can really help that and finding some opportunities to do that, those quick wins, and bringing that confidence to bear in terms of the lessons learned and good news stories is something I've taken out of the evidence I've seen, and, I think, will work with the team on looking at that sort of thing.

Because we or whoever could articulate a vision in terms of where anticipated investment is required in terms of the grid, but that doesn't make it happen, does it? And who pays for that and all of that? Much of this is not devolved, as well, so there are a myriad barriers that we've experienced over recent years and will no doubt continue to grapple with. So, is there not a point to be made that, actually, focusing more intentionally on community interventions, microgrids and doing it ourselves, if you like—whether there should be a greater emphasis on that, rather than just saying, 'This is what we want, now let's sit back and hope over the next few years it happens'?

Yes, I think there is. I'd agree with that, yes.

Yes, okay. Is there anything in terms of planning that could help facilitate some of that?

Just to make the point, really, that it is important that we have all the different strategies speaking together, and so, in terms of grid, the energy strategy is really important and how that fits in with EV charging and investment, and, of course, all the various planning—the hierarchy of planning and development plans. We've got 'Future Wales', which looks at grid as well, so that's really important; regional development plans to come forward; and then, local development plans, of course, to go in at the final level. So, it's really important that they take account of all of those different aspects. 'Planning Policy Wales' does reflect electrical vehicle charging, but, again, it is very much—. It's in there to allow people to bring that forward for the actual charging infrastructure, but, in terms of energy, it is very important that we look at where are the best places for this.

But there's another side to this, in that we have to look at energy saving as well. So, it isn't just a case of converting everyone to electric vehicles; we need to think about what else we should be doing—so, the investment in public transport, the investment in active travel and encouragement of that, so we reduce the use of private cars, reducing the use of electric charging, and using it where we need to.

You're right; there's always that danger that we just keep on demanding more and more and more. Huw.

It's on that and a related point; I want to ask you both this question. It seems that this is a technology where primarily it's going to be driven by early adopters, more affluent people, people who are willing to take a calculated financial risk to invest in this. And we've heard this morning already the stark differential in the costs of charging a vehicle at home on a trickle charge, or whatever, overnight, compared to some of the super-fast charging that you do and infrastructure—the real social justice issues. Meanwhile, Roisin, we have this longer term objective of not replacing like for like, so every house has two or three or four electric cars, instead of two or three diesel or petrol cars outside. We need to make streets more liveable in terms of planning and so on and so forth, and move towards not just public transport, but carpooling, car sharing, reflecting different needs for it. Where does this figure, if at all, in what we can do with planning and what we can do from a TfW strategic? Because this is to do with joined-up thinking. I know we're focusing on how we drive towards these targets of infrastructure roll-out, but otherwise we end up with the classic stranded assets in the wrong place doing the wrong job in five or 10 years' time.

That is a really big question, actually. In terms of national planning policy—so, 'Planning Policy Wales'—the transport hierarchy is there. It's well said. So, it's about how we embed that into local development plans and getting that taken forward, and then getting those that put forward development, whether that be public sector or private developers, to really take that forward. And that is an issue that perhaps isn't there fully yet, so we need to keep working on that. I'm in discussions at the moment with the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales as well. We're looking at this big question of how do we take that leap from the good national policy that's there and taking that forward to implementation.

I think the regional transport plans and the CJCs will be an important part of that, linking up the planning and the transport agendas. I completely agree with you about the shift in ownership models potentially—car clubs, car subscriptions, all that sort of stuff that could change how things work, and car share, as you said. I think we have got to bring all those things to bear in terms of how these things are played out going forward, which is why, I think, as you've all recognised, it's extremely complex, and getting the role right, especially the public sector investment in that.

Chair, I wonder if I could just follow up on the one unanswered part of my question—and my apologies, because I began with it and then went off into this wider future scoping thing—the issue of social justice and how, as we look to roll this out, if we accept what we've heard this morning, which is it's going to more expensive for people in the terraced houses, in the top end of one of my valleys, to go to a communal pool-charging area and fill it up at possibly four, five or more times the cost of charging, than to do it—. Because they can't run a cable off their own pavement. So, we're actually building in inequity. Sorry, this is something I'll put to the Minister, don't worry, as well. But can the planning system—? Can what you are doing and the way that you're devising this roll-out assist in that, or is that just beyond, because—?

It is beyond the planning system, but the planning system framework's there, but what we need to do is look at what the alternatives are. Why do we need people, wherever they are in Wales—? Perhaps in very rural areas, it's a slightly different issue, but why do we need them to have a private, individual car that they need to pay that to charge? If there was better—. Top-of-the-valley cycling might not be an option for everyone, although there are electric bicycles, but are there public transport options or the shared options as well? So, we need to be looking at that and investing in that, and maybe the public sector needs to provide some leadership in that side.

I would just build on that, and say it is part of the transport system, okay. So, if we break it up into chunks, it becomes very difficult to achieve it in one, but actually what we do want to try and achieve, and what Transport for Wales is working really hard on, is reducing the need for car use, more active travel, more public transport et cetera. So, that's why it needs to be looked at in the round, but it is an extremely difficult question, yes.

We've strayed into planning quite a bit there. I don't know, Jenny, if you want to pick up on some of those points.

Yes, okay. Yes. Also, I wanted to pick up on the stranded assets point. There's a carbon cost to doing something that we then rip up. What role does the national infrastructure commission play in assisting you to plan for the future—that's their job—when, as Huw's been talking about, things are going to have to change, because we've got a climate emergency? So, both of you, I wonder if you could—. Mr Ogden, I wonder if you can pick up on what was a bit of an anxiety for me, which is that local authorities are picking the low-hanging fruit, because they're under the cosh financially, but some of the more strategically important issues are therefore not being addressed.

Sorry. In terms of the low—

Well, low-hanging fruit in terms of doing things that are easy to do now, rather than thinking a bit more to the—[Inaudible.]

I'm not sure I have an answer for you on that one, to be honest.

Fine. That's okay. But you've not been—. TfW's not been having conversations with the national infrastructure commission.

Not on this matter.

Okay.

We are having—. I think we're having a meeting later this month with David Clubb and a couple of others, I think, to talk about things in general, so I'll make sure that this is on the list, but we haven't specifically talked about this with them yet.

Okay. Because if we're going to have the planning infrastructure for 2050, we need to do it now; we can't be undoing it all again and doing it. So, Roisin, how does your organisation get round this problem? Do you have contact with them? Or are you doing this sort of blue-sky work yourselves?

We are in discussion at the moment with the infrastructure commission for Wales, actually, about—. It's centred obviously not on EV charging specifically, but about the 15-minute neighbourhood walkable, accessible locations, and we've been doing some work on this as well. So, it's a very good concept in relation to the topic we're discussing today, because you reduce the need for private car usage as much—not take it away completely, but it's trying to find those ways of making places much more liveable for people and not car dominated, which really isn't good for people, from a pollution perspective and also your community cohesion, for all sorts of different reasons, which I know that this committee has discussed in the past. So, we are doing that blue-sky thinking.

One of the things that we do as an institute is an awards scheme, which sounds a little bit superficial, but actually what that does is draw out from people across the built environment industry where good practice is, so that we can then share that with others. And I think that the whole principle of sharing good practice and how things are working, where people take those first steps or perhaps embed some blue-sky thinking into everyday developments et cetera, is really important, about sharing good practice, about how things work on those liveable neighbourhoods and maybe to come through about how electric vehicle charging points can be integrated or transport infrastructure taken forward.

Okay. So, one of the things mentioned by David Wong, in the previous evidence session, was that in England and Scotland there are some charging points that just go back underneath the street pavement when they're not in use, so that they're not interfering with the buggy or the partially sighted person who would otherwise trip over them. So, what work has been done on, if you like, redesigning the street infrastructure to complement the 15-minute city?

I wasn't aware of those different types of charging infrastructure, so you shared some good practice there—thank you. There is a problem at the moment with on-street—as I'm sure you're aware—electricity, telephone boxes et cetera, where all of that goes. Planning has no control over that, because it's permitted development, so I think we need to be careful with electric vehicle charging points that we keep under review permitted development for that infrastructure, not to try and be bureaucratic and difficult, but to keep it under review to enable, when technology changes, that there can be some—we can encourage better technology to be brought forward, not just placing it anywhere that's convenient for that particular—you know, in the middle of that pavement, because that's where the wire's come up, but then actually that causes problems for your buggies, or cycle routes. That could be a real problem for cyclists, with charging points.

Totally. So, that takes me back to Mr Ogden's evidence, where you talk about the best practice standards that have been recommended by Government, but they're not enforceable in most cases. Clearly, it feels like there's an urgency around putting in some basic standards to avoid having to redo things that are done wrong.

I'd agree with that. I think the best practice national guidance that's coming out, clearly, where public funding is going in, there will be an ability to control those sorts of things, but where public funding isn't required, I think having the standard would help on that. I'd agree with the question about permitted development rights too, that, actually there's a lot of call on street space for lots of different things, and 15- or 20-minute neighbourhoods do mean that actually you can move about the place easily, and it's a good place from a placemaking point of view. So, yes, that needs to be taken into account, so I agree with what Roisin said on that too.

Okay. There are also some consumer rights issues, in that Mr Wong mentioned that one in 10 charging points don't work, and, if it was one in 10 vehicles not working, everybody would be up in arms. Why people should be paying with money for something they don't then get, because it's not functioning properly—. So, is that something that Transport for Wales has a role in, in advising on, making these recommendations, and others that may not be in them, mandatory.

So, we would have—. So, we don't have any statutory powers in our own right. So, we would have—. We can encourage, et cetera, but I think there's probably—. I don't know what the ability of Welsh Government is to set those sorts of standards in law, but there's a good question there. But it does come back to the thing a lot earlier about the confidence levels—if the infrastructure isn't working, then we're on a hiding to nothing, and it's only going to get worse in terms of people not adopting it. So, it is an issue that we need to deal with, and I guess the other role that we would play is, where we are putting in chargers with partners, and on our estate, we need to be making sure that they are working and functioning appropriately.

So, what particular regulations might be required to wake up the private sector, whose main job it is to provide places where people charge vehicles? At the moment, it's done in a petrol station, but what are the regulations that are needed to ensure that everybody is thinking about how we get around in the future?

Could I come back to you on that one? I find that difficult to answer right now.

Okay. Roisin, have you got anything further you'd like to—?

Because the planning system can drive a lot of this, can't it? It really can create that necessity to incorporate much of the infrastructure into everyday developments.

It can—it can require it. It's in national policy that it should be in housing developments, but is that something we want? Do we want to have the focus on having EV charging in every house, or available to every house? So, I think we need to be balanced about would it be better to have good cycling storage or good footway access rather than emphasising the EV charging. So, I think we need to be careful on what planning requires in that sense to think about.

Because some of the evidence we had earlier suggested that we don't need that, because average car journeys are 20 minutes, they said, and you don't need to be charging every car in every household every night.

So, let's go back to these destination charging places. For example, the doctor's surgery, the shop, work, train stations—those sorts of places—which is where this metal box is going to get stationary. You can't charge while you're going along, not from a charging point. What regulation might help assist in getting anybody who wants to put in a new large shop?

I think the market might be stronger here, in that people might choose a supermarket where they can charge their vehicle at the same time. So, in a way, I think the market can lead on this. There are already some supermarkets that are providing it, and other providers. Perhaps that will be the—. You know, they're doing the trials, or I think they're beyond the trials now. So, I see in supermarkets more charging stations coming in.

Yes, okay. I know Janet wants to come in on private investment in a moment, but, before we get there, I just wanted to cover one other area, really, and it's about delivering infrastructure on the strategic road network, which has obviously been a focus of your work and you talk about the target for charge-point delivery on the strategic road network, which is going to be delivered two years ahead of target. But, of course, EVA Cymru and others have suggested to us that the programme is generally moving too slowly and is rather unambitious. So, my question, really, is whether we're actually focusing on the right infrastructure being developed in the right locations in terms of the SRN, given that EVA Cymru, for example, sees a need now to move from single rapid chargers more in favour of reliable and managed hubs delivered in collaboration with charge-point operators. They, for example, said earlier that a charge point in Bala is great to fill yesterday's gap, but maybe it isn't looking forward enough in terms of this dynamic attitude and being nimble and able to refocus, really. So, I don't know how you'd respond to that.

I think that's part of the discussion we're having with Welsh Government about the extent to which the public sector gets involved in addressing those challenges, and the extent to which the private sector does it, and we support. So, the investment that's been made in the strategic road network by the public sector, whilst I think it's 18 sites, it's 35 charge points, so it's relatively significant, I guess, in that context. And where it's being done is by finding the right sites from the grid point of view, finding the right sites from an economy point of view as well, so, actually, each of them, I think, is within a mile of the strategic road network, but in towns, where, actually, there's an opportunity there in that if you've stopped to charge your car up, you can go and engage in the local area and spend money in shops, et cetera.

So, that's been the approach to try and deal with it so far, but I think in terms of—. And that's, obviously, every 25 miles, I think. If we're going to shift the dynamic on that and put more expectation on needing more chargers more frequently, or more chargers in hubs, then that's something we're working with Welsh Government on now to establish what role the public sector would have in that.

Okay. Thank you. Right, sorry, Janet, we'll come to you now then. There we are.

Yes, I'm unmuted. How successful has Wales been in attracting both private sector

investment and also the UK Government funding for local authorities, including details of any limiting factors?

So, we don't have a representative from local authorities, obviously, but maybe, Geoff, you'd have a general overview on that.

So, I think it's fair to say from what I understand that some local authorities have had difficulty attracting private sector investment, for all the reasons that we talked about earlier in terms of EV take-up generally in different communities and social groups, et cetera. So, there has been engagement from Welsh Government in terms of offering to support that, as I mentioned earlier. We were able to look at, with Ofgem, the green recovery fund—I've forgotten the name of it; the green recovery fund—in terms of helping to create some linkages between some opportunities for investment and that to draw down, which has been good. I think there's the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles funding, which as been drawn in, which refers back to my first point, and then there's obviously the public sector funding coming in from the Welsh Government. From a private sector point of view, I would just go back to that's where we see the lead taking place, and the role that the public sector plays is engaging that and making it happen. So, in the evidence provided, it talked about the number of charge points that have happened over the last year or so. On the one hand, some may say that that's not as high as it might've been. On the other hand, as I said earlier, setting the ground rules now for how we're going to go forward and engaging with the market, going forward, is pretty important to maximise the benefit of private sector investment rather than public sector.

How do we avoid a situation where the private sector comes in and cherry-picks the more lucrative options, because it was in evidence earlier that we heard that there are models of bundling together, or mixing together, the higher and the lower return proposals? You bundle them together so that the private sector don't just end up taking all the cream and then the public sector ends up having to pick up the pieces, as we've seen in other areas of service delivery, really. Is that something that you're conscious of or mindful of in terms of needing to guard against?

I think we're conscious of it and, again, it's something we need to look at with Welsh Government, because things like price capping actually needs to be thought about very carefully, because it could actually put off a bigger picture in terms of investment. So, we're aware of it; I don't have the answer sitting right here, right now, but that's the sort of challenge we've got to be careful of, and that's why I think we've got to have—. Whilst we've got to have a plan, we've got to be agile on these things and recognise when change is happening and certain things happening. I guess, whilst Transport for Wales and Welsh Government are working very closely together on this, this is probably one more that Welsh Government would need to take a policy view on, which we would be supporting in terms of advice et cetera, rather than Transport for Wales setting anything like that.

There's a lot of talking to Welsh Government that needs to happen. Now, I'm a bit concerned, because we have a strategy and we have an action plan, but still there are a lot of areas that you say you still need to discuss. Surely we should be ahead a little bit of where we are now.

So, there's an action plan that takes us through to 2025. The strategy, then, is clear. The deliverability, how you go about delivering that, is what we're working with Welsh Government on, and we have got a team that is working very closely together on this to make it a reality.

Okay. Thank you. Huw, did you want to come in on this?

My question, Chair, was primarily to do with local authority, but can I abuse the opportunity just for a moment?

Yes, yes. Sure.

Can I just ask you—? We've got various deadlines set in stone—2025, 2030, 2035. Then we've got the phasing out of any sale, at a UK level, of hybrid and petrol and diesel vehicles and so on, so things are going to change quite rapidly. What does it look like, from a TfW and a planning perspective, for the communities that we represent? Let's talk about a classic post-industrial, semi-urban linear Valleys community. What does it look like for somebody like that who's got an electric car, living on a terraced street? I'm trying to get the reality of this.

Do you want to have a—?

Oh, thank you. I'd suggest that we'd need to have provided more local services so that the car stays parked there for longer, or maybe they're sharing their car much more. And that is happening much more because you don't use it as much, you don't need it as much. Maybe the rail and bus facilities are better. But technology will have changed, I'm assuming, quite a lot by then.

What does charging look like for that individual living on that street?

Well, firstly, my point is that, hopefully, they'll be needing to charge it less, because they're not using it as much. But the technology—. As we've seen already, I'm not up to date with the current technology, but the technology will change—

From a planning perspective, where are they charging their car? From what I'm hearing from you, they're walking probably two to five minutes away to a communal area where they're charging their car, which is a big cultural shift, I have to say, from parking outside your house where you want it under the street lamp right outside—safe, looked after and so on. That's a big cultural change. Geoff, what does it look like?

It's really difficult to look into the future, isn't it? Part of this is about scenarios that could play out, but, on things like different ownership models, I don't know what the views of the panel would be around things like autonomous vehicles and that sort of thing, but I would—. Those things need to happen. Off-street parking, I think, has lots of benefits in lots of places, because of using, as we've heard, placemaking, using the street scene differently. But I would always go back, as well, to the transport hierarchy, and actually what we're trying to achieve through that in terms of active travel, public transport, et cetera, so people are thinking about these things differently; they're not necessarily thinking about the private car in the same way as they are now. And that's why I think—. We're doing a lot of work on behaviour change in Transport for Wales; we need to bring this agenda along into that too, to support that sort of mode shift and change in approach.

Okay. We've got about 10 minutes left, so just a couple more questions, if we may. I was just going to ask you to outline a little bit of Transport for Wales's work on communication and stakeholder management generally, but particularly the development and purpose of the planned EV charging service desk.

There is some planning taking place of the service desk. We haven't, as far as I'm aware, yet been given the go on that, and, in terms of the evidence that was provided, I think there was some anticipation of what sort of areas we would be covering. I think, at the very least, that is about sharing best practice between organisations and local authorities, et cetera—it's a service desk for them. We are also considering whether it is a service desk for the public to use as well, and, if that was to happen, then we need to make sure that's fitting in with our other customer service arrangements so that it's one joined-up piece.

In terms of the overall communication so far, I think it's fair to say that actually there's quite a bit of improvement that could take place in terms of engagement with communities, and more generally in terms of the plans, going back to the confidence thing. I guess it will be interesting to hear what other evidence you get more widely, but I think there is generally a challenge on how to consult effectively around things like EV chargers right across the UK, as I understand. We need to be clear on why we're engaging, what the purpose of it is, what we are hoping to get out of that. But I think, if we go back to the SRN network, actually engaging with communities to talk about, 'Well, there could be two chargers coming into this car park here; there are going to be more opportunities for trade in the town', et cetera, et cetera, that's a good story to get people engaged with. There is a benefit in doing more in that, absolutely.

I'm glad you recognise that, because some of the evidence we've had suggests that, in public communications, when you look at it in the round, there's very little reference to EV charging from Transport for Wales. Given that it is a focus of your work, maybe more could be done in—

Sorry, just out of interest, did they talk about that wider UK consultation as well—that it's a challenge that everybody is having—or not?

I think it touches on the wider cultural change that needs to happen, but maybe Transport for Wales should be shouting a bit louder, really, in terms of what you're doing and what the opportunities are, and what provision is being put out there so that people can have that confidence—coming back to confidence, again, where we started—that the infrastructure is moving in the right direction and that they won't be stranded if they invest in an electric vehicle, kind of thing.

Okay. Joyce, do you want to just conclude?

Just to round up, and again linking to confidence, but also to economic opportunities, benefits and investing. If we're asking people to invest, we will need the skills to be there. And we've heard evidence that those are missing at the moment. So, I don't know what sort of conversations you've had around that, but if you're going to bring all those economic investment benefits and innovation to Wales, it won't happen without the skills to do it, to underpin it. So, are those conversations happening?

I think they're happening to a degree, but again I'd say that there's an opportunity to increase that. And again, alongside everything else that we're doing, I would look at the opportunity for skills in Wales around this, look to understand what the opportunities in the supply chain are and how we engage more with SMEs into it—how can we do that? So, there's more to do, I would say, but yes, I absolutely see that as an opportunity.

And what about in planning, because equally, they will need different skills and mindsets, even, to move forward?

Yes. I think on the planning side, the specifics of the EV charging infrastructure, the knowledge of that isn't needed. Maybe the different options of how it sits in the townscape and in the streetscape, et cetera, will be needed. I think planners are mindful of that already. A lot of this kind of infrastructure is out of their hands. As I've said, some of it already has PD rights, so they have no powers over that, or it's taken up through a highways discussion. So, there is a discussion; it's not just about local authority planning decisions, it's about highway decisions as well and bringing the highways officers in. And I suppose 'Manual for Streets' hasn't been mentioned, but that's an important vehicle for us to look at and whether that is the right place for setting the standards of the type of infrastructure we have along roads and streets and how that's incorporated in as well.

There is a big resourcing issue in planning, which I take the opportunity to raise every time, but that's a different issue, and it's across local government, if not the public sector as a whole.

Yes. It's different, but very relevant, of course. Jenny, did you want to pick up on something?

Yes. How is it being reflected in the next generation of local development plans, as it's such a major driver of economic activity? Tourism—it could be used as a pump-primer for why people need to stop in my community, spend money in my hostelries where people can be eating food while they're charging. The tourism industry, are they awake to all of this? They seem to be demanding that the Government does something about it; why aren't they doing something about it themselves?

Yes. I don't know about the tourism industry, but it is a really big issue. If you think about that rural side of things, which is where there is a lot of tourism activity, if you have people who come with their electric cars, and there are going to be a lot of people who have that investment, they want to be able to come to rural areas for their holidays and to invest and spend money. So, there is a thought that tourism providers, particularly hoteliers but also pubs or restaurants—

Community councils.

Yes, it is something—

They've got dosh, a lot of them.

It's outside of planning's remit, perhaps, but yes, very much part of the economic discussions, economic fora that should be taking place. The first electric charging point that I ever saw, which was a long time before we were discussing this, possibly even before Welsh devolution, was in Llanelwedd, behind a cafe there. It used to be a Little Chef, it's something else now. So, there was an electric charging point there, which I remember thinking was from the space age. [Laughter.] But, those are ideas that need to be taken forward by rural tourism, but other services as well. So, yes, very much part of that.

Well, I think we've come a long way since then, but clearly, there's a long way to go still. We've come to the end of our hour, so can I thank you both very much indeed for your evidence this morning? You'll be sent a draft of the transcript just to check for accuracy, and we may ask for other bits and bobs from you, if that's okay, in terms of areas that we may not have managed to cover in the hour that we had. So, with that, diolch yn fawr iawn.

We will now pause the meeting for 10 minutes, and we will reconvene ready to start at 12:05 so that we can hear from our final panel this morning. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Welcome back, everyone, to this meeting of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee at the Welsh Parliament, Senedd Cymru. We're continuing with our work, and, indeed, our third evidence session on electric vehicle charging. Joining us for this next session, we have Malcolm Bebbington, who is head of future systems strategy with SP Energy Networks, Benjamin Godfrey, who is director of distribution system operator with National Grid, and joining us here in the committee room, we have Dr Neil Lewis, who's manager of Carmarthenshire Energy, and also represents TrydaNi, Charge Place Wales Ltd, and the community energy sector's car club. A very warm welcome to the three of you. As I explained, we have an hour and we'll go straight to questions, and I invite Huw to start.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Could I begin by asking our colleague from SP Energy Networks whether you consider the delivery of the Welsh EV charging strategy's 2025 vision is achievable and on target?

Okay, yes, sure. So, I think we would say that the vision is rightly ambitious, but the timescales are challenging. It's perhaps hard to state whether delivery is on target, as there's quite limited public information on some of the interim targets and progress, but as the distribution network operator for north and mid Wales, our role, of course, is delivering the network capacity that EV chargers need. And we have investment plans for the next five years, ED2, which have been developed closely in conjunction with Welsh Government. Those investment plans will facilitate the forecast volumes of EV chargers that are set out in the strategy, and we have ambitious delivery plans in order to be able to meet that.

So, we're planning to invest in installing between 6,000 and 10,000 new services into our Welsh customers' homes; that's where service cables don't have sufficient capacity at the moment to facilitate domestic charging. We're also intervening at over 600 sub-stations across mid and north Wales, and that's going to be combined with smart solutions as well as procuring over 100 MW of flexibility, and that will facilitate between 100,000 and 250,000 EVs in mid and north Wales. And the reason for the range in there is so that our investment plans can flex up and down depending on the requirements. In addition to that, the investment there will also enable hundreds of high-quality jobs in Wales in our local communities.

I wonder if I could put the same question to our National Grid witness as well.

Certainly. We also would echo that the plan is very ambitious, but it's also quite a pragmatic plan. We feel that there are a lot of sensible steps in there in order to deliver net zero, and we're starting to see, particularly with electric vehicles, there being a real groundswell between customer uptake and participation in electrifying transport through this particular mechanism. We definitely feel that the EV strategy set out will best enable that and allow a particular regional pathway to enable that really important part of decarbonisation.

In terms of progress on that, we certainly think that progress is being made, and we think that it's probably in step with the current uptake that we're seeing of electric vehicles in Wales. I think we have to recognise that there is a lot of regionality between the growth and uptake of electric vehicles, so it's certainly something that we're closely monitoring. Our investment plans, particularly over the next decade, are very much in line with delivering capacity, both on the primary networks to service motorway service areas and other large hubs, but also the secondary network in ensuring that we've got sufficient capacity there ahead of need for those domestic customers so that we can really drive confidence in allowing customers to connect, that they have charging provision, and really be confident that the grid is going to be there to support their decarbonisation plans.

Thanks for that, and I know that colleagues are going to come back, Chair, on the issue of grid issues generally. But let me go a little bit further with this, and perhaps open it up to our other two witnesses by asking them for their views on both the strategy for 2025, but also on the EV charging action plan, whether that's an effective document, the KPIs that are within it, the speed of progress on the action points—anything that should be in there that isn't in there as well. Neil, I don't know if you want to begin.

Thanks, Huw. It was a very worthy document when it was launched, but it's already out of date, I'd say, because the way we used to think about rapids in those days was a 50 kW single charger, but those days are gone now, as I'm sure you're aware. We're talking about super-rapid hubs now of 875 kW as a minimum, because anyone who's turned up in the Metrople at Llandrindod with a low battery and found that BP haven't bothered to switch it on realises that a single 50 kW charger isn't fit for purpose.

I think when we quote data of the EVs in Wales, there's a lack of EVs in Wales because of the lack of infrastructure. So, any talk of the infrastructure following the number of EVs in Wales is probably the wrong way of looking at it, I'd say. But my feeling is that we're trying to do it all ourselves, and bringing in Transport for Wales and training Transport for Wales from a standing start, but the commercial sector is already way ahead of us, so what we need to do as grid operators, may I respectfully suggest, is provide the opportunity for ultra-rapid hubs in mid and west Wales and north Wales, obviously, rural Wales. If they do that in half a dozen locations, they'll have achieved their objectives as far as EV users in Wales are concerned.

Okay. I think I've gone far enough on that, because I think colleagues, Chair, will take this forward. Thank you.

Did you want to pick up on anything, Joyce?

You spoke about half a dozen opportunities, if you like, and they would meet their objective, but is that objective stretching enough?

No, but it would make a big difference. You may know that I've been driving electric cars for about 12 years around Wales, and I cannot believe that we're still having this conversation about the difficulty of getting from south Wales to north Wales. I used to joke in my presentations that the gap between the A55 and the M4 is called Wales, and there is very little infrastructure between the M4 and the A55, and it really is squeaky bum stuff when you try and drive in Wales in a standard electric vehicle these days. I don't understand why we haven't already unblocked that. It's a source of some frustration and a bit of embarrassment, really, why we haven't got a couple of hubs in Newtown, Aberystwyth—Tesla have got a hub in Aberystwyth now that other users can use, but it wouldn't take much just to put a few hubs in, just to start us off.

What about some joined-up working to deliver this, because it can't all be down to local authorities or any one sector? So, in terms of that joined-up thinking, is that happening?

I think there's a huge role for the Welsh Government and the local authorities on the social equity front, because, obviously, 40 per cent of people don't have off-road parking, apparently. I picked up that figure a long time ago; I might be making it up, I've said it so often. For the people in high-density housing—flats and terraced housing—there's a need to allow them to access charging, but, more importantly, for them to access charging at an affordable rate. My wife and I are charging at 7.5p a unit overnight with our electric vehicles, and yet, someone who hasn't got off-road parking is maybe paying 75p, or even more, so 10 times as much. I'm imploring the local authorities now to access more sophisticated rates of payment for electricity. Because the suppliers are desperate to get rid of electricity through the night, so they'll sell it for 7.5p, 5p, and we've got to make that accessible to the people without off-road parking. That's a job of work for the Welsh Government and for local authorities.

When it comes to the local authorities, when we started up TrydaNi, we hadn't had a penny of public money; the community energy sector funded it, and we did a crowdfunder as well. And so we said, 'Right, we've got money, we've got this, that and the other, let's go.' We've had thousands of hours of meetings with local authorities, and they're all very enthusiastic, they're all lovely people, but they never make a decision. I suggest that one of the roles for the Welsh Government would be to incentivise and penalise—have a regime of targets for local authorities. I won't name names; I can mention half a dozen local authorities where you get to the stage where you go, 'Right, now we can have a rapid in this car park', and then the car park manager comes in and says, 'You're not having my parking space' and that's the end of it. There are one or two very aggressive car parking managers who are desperately trying not to get rid of any car parking spaces, so nothing's happened.

Jenny wants to come in, but I'll just allow you, Huw, first of all, because you're responding to something that was said directly.

Tell us how that would work, how we deal with that social justice issue. Because if we leave this to the private sector in terms of the roll-out, in terms of liaising where these are, and so on, but typically the price and the affordability, I can't see it happening.

I don't think it's that difficult. I think it's just joined-up thinking, as was mentioned. The Connected Kerb charging—. I parked by the St David's hotel and there's a couple of Connected Kerb chargers there. They're very much trying to access that. I'm a newly elected county councillor in Carmarthenshire, and I'm saying to them—. They say, 'Electricity's expensive, will we save money by going electric?' Well, if you access time-of-use tariffs, and charge your fleet overnight, and then sell that electricity back to the grid at breakfast time, the authority will make money, you know what I mean, not just save money. So, it's just more imagination. And I get the feeling—

You think those should be somehow reflected in more updated KPIs or something.

Absolutely. I think what the document says—. It was very well meaning, and I'm not being patronising; it really was of its time. But by the time we deliver, as local authorities, or as Welsh Government, the commercial operators have run rings around us. When we started TrydaNi, one of the large commercial operators came in and said, 'Right, if you find the sites for rapid hubs, we'll pay you a finder's fee, and also we'll pay you 5 per cent of profit for 20 years, and we'll pay the local authority 15 per cent.' So, it was a really good deal. And so we went away and said, 'Look, we've got great news, you haven't got to invest any money.' This commercial operator's got billions of pounds, not millions of pounds—billions. It's a Luxembourg infrastructure group, and they obviously want to take a very patient capital, very long-term view. So, it was a no-brainer for the local authority. It was free infrastructure and it would have solved their headache without using any public money whatsoever, but no-one was incentivised to make a decision. It's safer not to make decisions.

Jenny, did you want to come in?

As you've had all these conversations with local authorities, how come they aren't seeing it as a regeneration opportunity? Tourism is one of our main industries, and if you want to get people to come into Wales with their expensive electric vehicles, they're going to have to have charging points.

We've met some really good people. We've been working with Anglesey, Gwynedd. As experienced electric vehicle drivers, and proponents of electric vehicles, we've had to train a lot of people from a standing start, as I mentioned, with Transport for Wales as well. They get to a stage where they get it, they access funds from Welsh Government, they're ready to go, and they're very good at it by that stage, but they won't go beyond—. The imagination won't stretch to the next stage of working quicker. It seems that local authorities declare a climate change emergency and then carry on with business as usual. It seems the declaration of the climate emergency is the peak of their ambitions, and nothing changes, and that's a real worry, isn't it, from a scientific point of view.

That is a worry.

We'll pick up on some of these themes later on. We move on now to focus again on the grid. Janet, do you want to raise a few issues?

Thank you, Chair. What is the reason that stakeholders continue to describe the grid as a significant constraint on EV charging infrastructure deployment, despite the apparently extensive work outlined in SP Energy Networks’ evidence?

Malcolm, do you want to respond?

Perhaps I could start with that one. There will, of course, always be areas about the grid that are constrained, but we have been doing significant investments, looking at the way to create additional capacity, and working closely with the Welsh Government and Transport Scotland as part of our green recovery investment programme. If we talk about the green recovery programme, that's going to deliver 21 MW of EV chargers—that's across 25 trunk roads—and they're due to be commissioned this year. That's a really significant investment programme. If we look back, and we think about what we've done to create additional capacity over the last five years, it's been about 130 MW against a peak demand of 750 MW in mid and north Wales. We've deployed innovation, so we've established a DC link between the mainland and Anglesey—that's increased capacity by about 25 per cent in that area—and we've also done a lot to develop our tools. With EV forecasting, for example, we're able to accurately predict where our customers are going to want to charge their EVs at a domestic level.

If we look forward now, so if we think about the next five years—ED2—we're going to double the level of investment to create capacity in Wales, and our plans have been developed in conjunction with the Welsh Government. Our forecasters—I think I mentioned before—are very much aligned with what's set out in the strategy and what's set out in the action plan. In terms of the way in which we're going to go about that, the first is to absolutely maximise the use of the existing network, so getting every drop of capacity out of the existing wires. To do that we're going to significantly increase visibility of the network: we're installing thousands of substation monitors, as well as procuring over 100 MW of flexibility across 241 sites in mid and north Wales. We're going to add new capacity to the networks, so we're installing between 6,000 and 10,000 new services into customers' homes, over 200 km of circuits, as well as intervening and installing new and upgraded substations across 600 sites.

Also, renewable generation is a big part of this, so that EV chargers can be powered by zero-carbon energy, and to facilitate that over the next five years, we're going to be doubling the level of generation that would be connected in Wales. And, also, we've put a team of engineers in place, which we refer to as 'strategic optimisers', and the aim of this team of engineers is purely to work closely with the Welsh Government, to work closely with local authorities and the local communities, on things like local area energy plans and helping to get the right infrastructure in place to facilitate the charging infrastructure. So, there's an awful lot that's been done, and is being done, in this area.

Thank you. Can I just ask, Chair—? That's sounds great. Doubling the capacity sounds really marvellous. However, there's so much renewable energy coming on board here in Wales. I live facing Llandudno bay, and all the infrastructure that's coming there. We've got floating wind turbines coming off Pembrokeshire, and other schemes all rolling along. Is it going to be enough?

Perhaps I can come in on this one. I think one of the key challenges, but also opportunities, that we've got as a distribution network is to make sure that we can link the right amount of generation, so that we can bring on new demand, particularly making sure that they are both renewable demands and renewable generations. I think that this is one of the important things that we can take from the renewable generation growth that we’ve seen over the past few years and transfer across, particularly to electric vehicles. In south Wales we were able to connect—and consistently across a number of years, through when we had a big boom in renewables—over 300 MW-worth of connected capacity every year, and bring in new capacity to be able to serve that. That’s something that we can replicate for electric vehicles. We just need to find a consistent way of working with the industry and making sure that our capacity is delivering in lockstep with industry. I think that’s really where we’ve struggled to find a good rhythm so far. The delivery of a lot of the EV infrastructure is predicated on the market going first and indicating where it needs to be, but that market isn’t quite there, and you get into this chicken-and-egg situation. I think there are some technical steps that we could take, and particularly going into the next price control we’ve got a greater ability to be able to lead on some of that investment without customers having to contribute as much, particularly where there is a lack of infrastructure. So, we’re really keen to work with local authorities and at a regional level to identify those areas where us installing new infrastructure there is zero or low regret, and start making those technical steps to provide a capacity out to the network.

Neil, do you want to respond to that?

Again, it’s back to my point that saying there isn’t the demand is unrealistic, because there’s going to be a huge demand coming forward. Thirty per cent of new car sales in December were electric, and the danger is, as I’ve said before, that all the diesels that are leaving London are going to end up in rural Wales, and we still won’t have the demand because we’ll all be driving 15-year-old diesel cars. We’ve got to be a bit more ambitious than that.

Another point is the fleets. If anyone is putting petrol or diesel in their fleet vehicle they’re wasting public money. Carmarthenshire council are very proud of their 10 electric cars that are about 10 years old, and they’ve got 800 vehicles on the road. I think we should be motivating local authorities to access Office for Zero Emission Vehicles funding. Back to the social equity question, 75 per cent of street infrastructure is funded by OZEV, but it requires the local authority to apply for that money. So if the local authorities aren’t applying for that money, it’ll stay in Oxford and London. With the fleets we need to set targets of 50 per cent electrified fleets for light vehicles by 2025, and maybe 100 per cent by 2028. Be ambitious; see the horizon that you’re trying to get to. Because the science demands it. This idea of Paris-aligned 2050 is nonsense, isn’t it?

Back to you, Janet.

Do you as witnesses agree with evidence suggesting grid limitations deter private capital investment in charge points, and that this then leads to patchy provision?

I think certainly the lack of capacity in particular areas is not enabling the growth in those particular areas to come forward. But I do think that it is really about the economic decision. Where there are pockets of capacity that are abundant, it makes it a lot easier for the market to go in there and provide charging provision at a much lower cost. Those are the opportunities that the market is seeking to tackle first. Where we’ve got areas of the network where perhaps either network infrastructure doesn’t exist, or it’s a lower capacity, they’re less attractive.

What we have seen, going back to the solar and wind example, is that where there is sufficient economic advantage of infrastructure being delivered in those particular areas, then industry, network operators and people seeking connections can make sure that infrastructure is there and can roll that out. We’ve got the delivery capability, but I think it’s as much an economic decision. At the moment, that’s being led by the market, and we’re starting to see that lagging. So, they’re taking opportunities where there is more capacity that is more available and choosing those first to roll out. And really, if we want to have consistent coverage, particularly in areas where there is sparse infrastructure or perhaps lower volumes of market activity, then perhaps some other catalyst needs to step in to make sure that there is adequate provision.

Huw, you wanted to respond to that.

Yes, purely—. You had an interesting choice of words there, that the grid capacity may not be enabling people to step into a particular area. The converse of that is it's constraining. So, can I just try and unwrap that a little bit? Is it constraining investment in the infrastructure that we're talking about because the grid infrastructure is not there—as opposed to not enabling, it's constraining?

I think what we can see now, particularly with the consumption of electricity across our region, and the area particularly in south Wales, we can see a year-on-year reduction over the past two decades based around energy efficiency and just general reduction of consumption. So, there is capacity in the network, but it's just not necessarily in those areas where new use cases such as electric vehicle charging are seeking to open up and use that capacity. What we are seeing is that as it's a market-led approach then the most economically advantageous areas where they can get these projects off the ground are being taken first, and I think that there is a certain expectation that, as that lower hanging fruit gets developed first, then it will be expanded out.

What we're trying to do, and one of our main duties, is run an efficient and economic network. There is huge appetite for us to ensure that we've got the right amount of infrastructure, but we need to make sure that we're doing that in the right period of time, just ahead of need. We could go out and gold plate the network and provide excess capacity everywhere—that really wouldn't be an efficient way of running the network, and it wouldn't be something that would be supported by our regulator.

Joyce, you wanted to pick up on something as well.

What sort of joined-up working is there? I represent rural mid and west Wales, and time and time again we are informed that it's the inadequacy of the national grid that's preventing any expansion into renewable energy, for example, and other forms of energy. So, I don't want to get into a chicken-and-egg situation here, which is clearly what's happening at the moment. So, what sort of joined-up thinking is there between you as providers and also the policymakers, particularly Westminster policymakers, because the big projects aren't devolved here in Wales? I'd be very interested to know that.

Ben again.

Certainly. So, I think this is one area where we have really made huge strides in progress over the past couple of years. So, there are two big changes that have been being progressed over the past couple of years, and will be embedded for April of next year: one is our next price control; this is a five-year period. We have just, as of last month, landed on the—[Inaudible.]—determination from the regulator. That is seeking to enable a lot more capacity across our network, so an additional 30 per cent to 100 per cent more investment in new capacity than what we were doing before. That has been the end of a negotiation process between us and the regulator and all network companies have also been involved in the process. And I think that recognises the improved recognition of additional needs for capacity across all of our regions, both for demand and generation. So, that investment will be being turned on from April onwards.

The second point is about ensuring that the grid is enabling connections, and this is one area where the regulator is taking some quite big steps, particularly in reducing the charges that are apportioned through to customers. So, demand customers, particularly electric vehicle charging operators, they will receive much lower charges for connections than they would have done prior to April. That's a big step that the regulator has made, in recognition of that the way that the charging boundary was working wasn't really enabling electric vehicles and other forms of decarbonisation.

Okay. Malcolm, your evidence talks about how critical the next price control period is going to be as well in terms of network investment, but also whether there's sufficient collaboration and communication on EV infrastructure plans. Do you want to just expand a little bit on that as well?

Yes. So, I'll talk a little bit about how our plan was put together. So, our network planning process considers the growth of EV. So, the first stage of this, in developing our plans, is the development of our distribution future energy scenarios. So, this forecasts EV growth out to 2050, and these forecasts are of course informed by legislative targets, credible net-zero-compliant forecasts, such as from the committee on climate change, and stakeholder input, also, of course, from Welsh Government. To assist in more localised planning, we've developed—and I think I touched on them before—leading EV-specific forecasting tools. One of them was an innovation project called EV-Up, and this uses spatial, demographic, socioeconomic data to forecast the likelihood and then timing of EV adoption, and that's across all of the properties that we serve. And this has helped us in our plans for the next five years, to ensure that we're targeting the network investment where it's needed. In terms of matching energy supply to demand, we're supporting, as I mentioned before, the connection of more renewable generation in Wales, so EV chargers can be powered with zero carbon energy. If we think about our Welsh network, it's already a net exporter of electricity at high demand, due to the level of generation that's installed, and that's set to increase quite significantly.

Okay. Thank you for that. What I'm trying to get at, really, is what more can the energy planning and regulation process do to help and facilitate this future growth and visualisation of what's needed, really, in futureproofing, encouraging anticipatory investment. Because, of course, we're not only looking at EV; it was mentioned to us earlier that homes will have heat pumps—there's a whole array of demands that are coming. We can see it coming and, unless the infrastructure is there, then it ain't going to happen, is it? Ben.

Yes. This is a really, really pertinent point, particularly as we've just gone through the recent price control determination. We submitted quite an ambitious business plan, seeking £6.7 billion to invest in the network, recognising that our customers were asking for more capacity to connect electric vehicles and heat pumps. However, there is a range of different scenarios on uptake, and, at the moment, there's quite a lot of uncertainty about when the capacity will be required and in which locations. We went through quite a rigorous process to engage with customers and provide that supporting evidence to feed into our business plan. But, ultimately, the regulator felt that there wasn't quite sufficient evidence to seek that level of investment, and has brought that level of investment down. They've left it open-ended. There are uncertainty mechanisms that we can use to increase the amount of investment as those developments come on stream and we start seeing the number of EVs and heat pumps within our networks increase. We're really keen to continue to work with local authorities, particularly in developing local area energy plans, so that not only we can provide a consistent understanding about where the forecasts for those technologies are, but also ensuring that we've got tactical and time-bound actions that we're undertaking to really spur on the delivery. And I think that is our key ask, really, that we continue that ongoing dialogue, to make sure that not only we've got aligned investment forecasts, but that we're actually supportive, understanding who needs to deliver what actions, what the roles and responsibilities are.

And that brings us back again to the collaboration aspect that we touched on earlier. So, are you concerned that the target and key performance indicators in the EV action plan aren't being met? For example, target dates to establish a connections group and a charge-point operator group, they've been missed, so are we not justified, as Members, in being concerned that what was said is going to be done is not happening? I know that may be a question to the Minister, but clearly you would be some of the people sat around that table.

So, certainly, we're very supportive of having those discussions. We have them across different regions as well, and we've supported different types of industry in having those discussions, to bring forward that evidence and that co-ordinated plan. So, I think we'd be very happy to support that.

Okay.

Yes. And just to add to that, we would be absolutely supportive of—[Inaudible.]—the group if it's created. We do already work closely with Welsh Government through various other forums. I talked about our future energy scenarios before that. That's of course not just EVs; that's heat pumps, that's generation, that includes all of our demand and generation forecasts, so that is already embedded within our plan. And, as Ben touched on before, there are opportunities, using the regulatory mechanisms over the next five years, for the plan to be able to flex up and down, using uncertainty mechanisms, to meet whatever scenario occurs. But if we do need to access those uncertainty mechanisms then the support of Welsh Government could be very helpful. Support from Welsh Government, as we were developing our plans and securing the necessary investment for the next five years, has been absolutely instrumental in developing our plans and getting them approved by the regulator.

Okay. Thank you. And finally from me, just on this section, the Welsh Government's action plan commits to working with the electricity industry to review arrangements for electrical supply to buildings. I'm just wondering whether you see a benefit to that kind of review and whether you're aware of whether that's under way or not.

So, perhaps to come in there, to my knowledge, I'm not sure whether that's started. I think we would see a review as being beneficial. We would very much welcome that work and be happy to support it.

Yes. Okay. Well, especially if you're investing a lot of money into substations, I think that would be useful, wouldn't it, really?

Indeed.

Yes. Okay. Thank you. Right, we'll move on to Jenny, then.

Okay. Thank you very much. I want to look at how we're spreading the good message and the advantages of having electric vehicles rather than simply just replicating existing models. So, Malcolm, you, in your paper, talk about using forecasting as to where demand is going to be. Is there nothing that's being done, unless it's with public money, to, if you like, buck the trend, regenerate? You got money from Ofgem to put charging points in on the A5 network, including at the Rhug estate. Isn't that something that the private sector could have done for itself?

So, that was green recovery funding, and we believe that's been a very successful project that is about to be commissioned, as I think I touched on before, to provide charging points in those key strategic locations where they don't exist at the moment. So, I think you could perhaps consider it to be kick starting the requirement in those places where there weren't the bulk charging points.

But you had a successful business that's perfectly capable of enhancing its business model, whereas other communities might need a bit more of a helping hand.

Yes. Malcolm first and then Ben wanted to come in as well.

Yes. So, that was getting the charging infrastructure in place where it needs it. That's the larger charging points. In addition to that—I think we mentioned our forecasting before—we've put into place or we've invested a lot in developing forecasting tools to understand which of our customers are likely to get EVs first and ensuring that services, for example, are capable of facilitating domestic chargers.

Okay. Ben.

Another thing, just to add, the green recovery was a very interesting case in how networks can take decisions in consultation with some of the parties that wish to connect to a network and advance reinforcement ahead of any particular trigger. So, it's very much strategic investment doing things ahead of need. We have got some nods to strategic investment, however, much of our investment is tied to very concrete plans where either customers are already there waiting or paying their own contribution of money towards taking investment forward. That is the way that it's always worked. It does deliver growth across the networks, but it requires some contribution from connecting customers to tilt the balance and show that there is a required need in there.

I think one of the areas that we'd really like to see advance over the next few years is not necessarily needing the burden of evidence to be connecting customers waiting behind constraints or waiting with additional money to feed into the connections, but the evidence being supplied by networks in conjunction with local authorities to demonstrate that there is a need there, albeit it's not a need that is contingent upon one particular market-led supplier coming in there and providing that additional third-party finance. I think that would very much stimulate some of the growth.

Okay. So, what would your strategy be for putting charging points on the A470, which is obviously the spine that connects north and south Wales?

I think, in a lot of those circumstances where we know that there is going to be a requirement for charging provision, then as long as we can get agreement with the stakeholders in those particular areas that they are happy to support those and that they are required, then the network should be allowed to go and get on and ensure that the network is fit to be able to accommodate that. The issue that we have is that for every £1 of investment that we make, then that has to be recouped by everybody's bills, and electricity bills are slightly regressive as well. We just have to be very careful about when we're making the commitment to expand that infrastructure out, that it is going to be needed and it's not going to be a stranded asset.

Okay. So, as far as you're concerned, then, it's the role of Government to fill in that major hole in the EV network charging points.

Certainly we have our part to play in delivering the infrastructure and identifying where the best and most economic solutions are, but we can only do so in lockstep with getting allowances from the regulator. So, the regulator there needs to be supported, I would say, certainly by regional Government, in agreeing that these are justified and that they are a correct way of spending bill payers' money.

Okay. But, what about—? Given that we're talking about the area of Wales that's not connected to the grid, or very poorly connected to the grid, what would be the strategy for combining community renewable generation and electricity storage? What role could you play in making that happen?

Again, particularly where a customer is wishing to connect to a network, we have a statutory duty to be able to provide them a valid connection offer, associated with cost and timescales. We have traditionally used conventional infrastructure—overhead lines, underground cables and transformers—to go and provide that capacity, but we're not so constricted now; we're able to use other alternative connections, either with the flexibility that Malcolm suggested or seeking that from energy storage as well. So, I definitely think we have a much greater plethora of options on the table, but it's still very much contingent upon that first-end customer coming along and kick-starting those discussions. Where we're talking about strategic investment, then we need to build that case with stakeholders, and I think this is where local area energy plans can really play a huge part in that. If we can designate particular areas for really accelerating renewables or storage or any other decarbonisation through electricity, if we can designate particular areas in conjunction with stakeholders and local authorities, then that gives us the business case to start making that investment and opening up that capacity.

Okay, so, there's nothing in your business plan to use underused assets, say, in the middle of the night, to top up particular sites and then get it used, obviously, when people are actually moving around.

So, the flexibility that Malcom alluded to earlier on, we are certainly providing financial signals through to customers and assets, indeed maybe storage, to make sure that they are doing the right thing that is co-ordinated with the network. So, pulling in when there are times of excess energy and exporting when there's excess demand. We're certainly providing those economic signals through to those customers. We're not able to invest in storage ourselves. It's an activity that sits outside of our licence duties, but we're certainly making those partnerships with third-party investment to be able to enable that to happen.

Okay. But there's nothing you could point to, even through Western Power Distribution, which you now own?

Our distribution area of the business is forbidden from owning storage. It's outside of our legal—

Okay, fine, you said that already—I heard it.

So, in terms of the economic signals that we're sending out, we've procured over 900 MW worth of flexibility. Some of that is from storage, some of that is from EVs flexing and using overnight tariffs, and we certainly see that as a big part. It's not just all about conventional infrastructure—it's certainly a lot of flexibility that we'd be seeking.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, yes, Neil, this whole thing about renewable energy generation, storage, plugging your EV into it, particularly for rural areas, is something I'd imagine you've been grappling with for years.

Yes. I think the two things are slightly separate, you'd be surprised, because renewable energy is going to go forward and is at scale now—there's offshore wind and what have you. The charging infrastructure is slightly different, and whilst the grid is crucially important—I think places need strengthening, obviously—from our experience, we've found locations where the commercial operators wanted to strengthen the grid—so, putting in a new substation to put in rapid chargers—and it was the landowner that was always the blockage, and the landowner was invariably the local authority—not always, but like a carpark in the middle of a market town in mid Wales—and we just couldn't get past that landowner, because it requires negotiation, it requires legal documents, and they just weren't engaging, really.

I'm struggling to understand why, because you could do a local community renewable energy scheme and then you'd make some money for your community. What's not to like in all that?

I don't know if you've been to our Cross Hands hub in Carmarthenshire. It was paid for by the Welsh Government.

I haven't, but I'm sure others might have.

That's a really nice example. It's got a solar canopy, batteries and four 50 kW chargers and one 150 kW charger, and it's very well located next to a coffee shop and what have you. But, even then, the solar canopy's a nice to have—it's not really supplying all that electricity. So, I think the renewable energy market has to go on, and the grid guys will have to be dealing with that side of things. But the charging infrastructure isn't directly linked to that, I don't think.

So, you've never had dealings with Powys then, which, obviously, is a massive land mass.

Lots of dealings with Powys.

Oh, right. So, they've not jumped on this as a serious opportunity for attracting business.

No. People won't talk to me again if I spill the beans, but it follows a certain pattern. They engage very enthusiastically, whichever county we might be speaking of, and then it peters out. Maybe it takes six months, maybe it takes hundreds of voluntary hours from the community energy sector, but nothing ever comes of it. You can look back when you attend an event like this and think, 'So, what have we achieved over the last three or fours years?' We're putting lots of chargers on community buildings at the moment—7 kW, 22 kW.

Do you do much work with community councils? Because a lot of them have quite a lot of dosh, and they might think of that as an effective way of investing for the benefit of their community.

You'd think so, but I've done lots of presentations, through Renew Wales and things, to community councils and community buildings and what have you, and you don't make a lot of money from car charge points. If you're charging people, if there's a contactless card payment system, it costs money to maintain, and it's quite temperamental technology. So, once they hear that having a charge point on the building won't necessarily make them rich, they lose a bit of interest, really.

But while they're charging their cars, they're going to the shop, or having a meal in a cafe or whatever.

What we're trying to do through Community Energy Wales and TrydaNi at the moment is the car club idea. And, so, we'll park a couple of electric vehicles in the community, and, obviously, there's a charge point linked to solar panels on the roof. And that's an asset that we know is going to get used, so it becomes more commercially viable. The last thing you want to do—. We put a charging point in Salem, Llandeilo years ago because we were putting solar panels in, and it might not get used from one year to the next. So, you wouldn't want to do that on a commercial basis. But if you know there's a car club, or a taxi firm using the charge points, and you're charging the right amount for the electricity, you can break even at the very least.

Okay. Thank you.

Joyce.

Everything you describe as happening is not joined up. So, is there room here for some guidance—although I'd like it to be a lot stronger than that—initially, through the planning system? So, if you're going to say you're going to develop x, y and z, alongside that, should there not be a requirement that says 'but', and you will deliver x, y and z? And, as Jenny quite rightly pointed out, we've got a situation at the moment where high streets right across Wales, particularly in our area, are struggling. So, there's a wider economic benefit here, as well as a social benefit and an environmental benefit. Do you find in your extensive work that there is not enough joined up work—

Absolutely.

—not enough of the people who could all benefit, rather than the individuals, in the same room? And you're nodding your head, and you've got more experience than I have in this. What do you think we could recommend—because that's what we want from you—as a solution?

Well, you obviously need to put me in charge. [Laughter.] But, as I mentioned earlier, we need to incentivise local authorities, because even within a local authority, there's no joined up thinking. You've got the car park guy, and the transport guy, and the energy guy and the risk person, and once the legal department gets involved, you're talking about three years of dead space, quite often, for any site. So, it's exhausting really. So, you need someone with powers to co-ordinate and to, as I said, penalise and incentivise, and to have real powers—nothing silly, but just say, 'Look, how many rapids have you put in in 2022?' 'None.' 'Right, we want to see three in by the end of 2023.' And make them think on their feet really, because the solutions are there; it's not that hard.

One thing that worries me about some of the grid operators is that they regard battery storage as generation, and that seems counterintuitive to me. The capacity has to be enough for the solar panels and the batteries.

And, then, one last thing in towns that I'm starting to talk about in Carmarthenshire County Council, is that a lot of our towns have got conservation orders. So, a lot of the businesses and a lot of the homes aren't allowed to put solar panels on their roofs. They're not allowed to put energy efficiency measures in place—insulation or what have you, visible insulation. So, we need to, maybe, if there is a climate emergency—and I suggest there is—we need to lift a lot of these restrictions as a matter of urgency.

Well, that's taking us into a whole different sphere.

Yes.

But, yes, we absolutely hear what you're saying. Huw, you wanted to come in, and then we'll come to Joyce just for a couple of final questions.

I think it's just really interesting that when we get beyond the issue of charging points per se, and we get into the wider transformation of how we travel, where we travel, then things like community car clubs become really interesting, but they are a disruptive model. It challenges me individually—most people out there—about how you move to this. It challenges local authorities in terms of how they engage with this, as opposed to just developing a set of rapid charging points in a car park and so on.

So, from your experience with what's starting to become now a Wales-wide development of car clubs, what are the greatest impediments, but what are the greatest opportunities here that come alongside developing these charging points? How do we, with car clubs, not replace, like for like, diesel or petrol cars with electric cars, but actually replace the whole way we travel alongside the development of this charging? How do we do that? What's holding us back? How can we break through that?

It's challenging. Insurance is a huge issue. We're working with a Welsh company at the moment, trying to develop a Welsh-specific insurance regime for car clubs so young people can use the car clubs, because they tend to restrict it to between 25 and 70, so we would need to open that up. There are lots of—. I mean, we could talk all day about all this stuff, but it's a change of mindset. I gave evidence before, and Joyce said that's a change of mindset on five different levels. That's why I'm not entirely in favour of putting a charge point in every new home in Wales, because that's sending the wrong message. That's counter to thinking. Certainly put the potential for a charge point in there—passive provision of it—so if someone does have an electric vehicle they can fit their own charge point. There's no point putting a charge point in every home in Wales, really, you know.

No, and, in fairness, that's come through pretty clearly in the previous evidence today as well.

And if someone hasn't got an electric car, they'll put a nice bit of kit on, and it'll rust. It will be obsolete within three years by the time they do get an electric car. So, certainly have the capacity that you can put a box on the wall quite easily and cheaply, but nothing more than that, I'd have said.

No. That's important. Diolch yn fawr. Okay. So, we'll conclude. We've got four minutes left.

Right, well, I'll have to come and see what you're doing, as the first thing. So, we'll sort out that.

Yes, you'd be very welcome.

And you've got a lot of experience in developing the EV charge-point network and the car clubs. So, what have been the biggest challenges beyond the ones we've obviously already discussed?

Yes, I probably repeated myself on the local authority thing, and I don't want to be unkind to them. It's not their fault. It's just the way they operate because of the silos in the departments. But I think if Welsh Government could take a friendly arm around their shoulders and say, 'Come on, you've declared a climate emergency; we need more charge points—let's facilitate those charge points'. And the grid operators have a role to play as well. But I'm sure that, once they engage positively, the commercial guys will pile in, and then the targets of the number of electric cars in Wales will change very quickly. I was going to say 'rapidly' then, but I won't. [Laughter.] There's a huge opportunity. And with the car clubs, I think there's a huge opportunity there, but it's hard. That's a whole hour's chat again. It's a totally different thing. But what we're trying to do with TrydaNi is stick charge points in wherever there are car clubs, so we're developing a community-based network from that, surreptitiously almost.

Okay. Just finally, then, from me: building regs and land-use planning practice, effectively—do they effectively support development? I'd imagine that you have a firm view on that. You mentioned it, but I'm just wondering what practical changes we need in terms of planning to allow—. You mentioned some particular older buildings, maybe, but I'm just thinking of charge points, particularly, and hubs maybe, specifically, as well.

Yes. I don't think planning is a huge issue for me. It obviously is an issue for others. We tend to put boxes on walls, so there aren't many issues, and they're quite cheap. They're like £1,400 and you've got a 7 kW charger, if it's linked to the building. It's not the end of the world, and you get your money back quite quickly. For the larger charging hubs, that's obviously a planning issue, but I think we need to acknowledge that we've got seven years to decarbonise, as we're all aware, and to be talking about, 'Oh, that doesn't look very nice,' is probably not the way forward. I think we need to acknowledge that if we put solar panels, put charge points in—they are temporary structures and we need to embrace the technology, and then we can always remove them when we decide we've got something better to do.

Okay, there we are. Right. Thank you very much. May I thank the three of your for your evidence? We have had a great deal to chew over as a result of these three sessions today, so thank you very much. You will receive a copy of the transcript to check for accuracy. But, with those few words, may I thank the three of you for your attendance?

We'll continue with the meeting now, and we have papers to note. So, may I ask Members whether they're content to note those papers? Yes.

There is one item, 5.9, which is a piece of work that the public accounts committee is doing on public appointments. Given that we've played a role in terms of pre-appointment hearings, I'd like to suggest that maybe we submit something to that, but maybe we can discuss that in private session, if Members are okay with that.

So, we'll move into private session and, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), I propose that the committee resolves to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? I see that Members are content. There we are. We'll wait a second until we're in private session.