Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning. I'm Siân Doyle. I'm S4C chief executive officer.

Thank you. Sian.

Sian Gwynedd, head of people, culture and partnerships at BBC Cymru Wales.

Thank you. And Nia.

Nia Britton, operations manager, ITV Cymru Wales.

It's great to have the three of you with us this morning. We'll go straight to questions and I'll go straight to Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for joining us today and thank you for the evidence that you provided beforehand. Perhaps the questions will overlap with your evidence, but it's an opportunity to have a wider discussion, if that's okay. The first question is if you could outline, please, what you feel is the current health of the creative industries workforce and how has this been affected by shocks such as the pandemic, Brexit and increased costs of living. Do you want to go from left to right?

Thank you. It is a very challenging time, but I think it's also an exciting time in the creative industry in Wales. We know that Wales now is a very busy hub for people to come in from outwith Wales, to come in to film in Wales, and there are really exciting productions taking place in Wales. So, it is an exciting time and, from S4C's point of view, we're very busy and we are commissioning the length and breadth of Wales with our independent partners.

The challenges are looking at skills. Because it is such an exciting, growing sector, that does create many challenges for our productions as regards finding editors or whatever they need. I think that the pandemic has arrested some of the development in getting the right skills growing throughout the sector, and so some skills are rarer than others. Also, I think the cost of living is now starting to bite, because there is a lack of these skills. There's so much going on in Wales and the cost of living is increasing as well, so it's a very challenging time for our partners and for S4C, and we're seeing costs starting to increase across the sector.

As Siân has said, to start with, I think it's important to say that we welcome the growth that we're seeing in the sector and how positive that is. As you know, we've seen growth since 2016, and a number of major productions have come to Wales. So, we welcome that and see that picture as a very positive one.

But, as Siân has said, that also gives us challenges, in particular in terms of skills and the shortage of skills in some areas. I'm sure we'll talk about that later, but that is challenging for us. I also think that we see wider challenges in terms of the fact that the licence fee has been frozen for two years in terms of the BBC. That is challenging, and when you then look at the impact of inflation on production costs, the fact that there is a shortage of skills means that there's been an increase in the cost of skills and competition for those. So, I think currently there are concerns because of inflation of costs, and that is having an effect on the industry.

In terms of ITV, we're involved in current affairs and news production, so that's the perspective I can speak from. I would agree entirely, really. We've had two years where everything had come to a halt, as it were. What we found internally, and we've lost freelancers who went to other positions—. For example, I had one person in ITV who left ITV just before the pandemic to become a freelancer in the open market, and he had 18 months of work in the pipeline, and he lost all of that within, I think, a fortnight. He left us, he went freelance and he lost all of that pipeline of work. So, I think that that kind of thing now—. These are decisions for people to make in terms of the way that they work. I think that that impacts those people who do work as freelancers now. But we've found, exactly as you said, really, that trying to find freelancers now is one of the major challenges. There are some sectors that are finding that particularly difficult, and we can focus in on those in terms of targeting skills in future, to find those people.

But, again, the cost of living—. What I would say is that people now, I think, who would have remained with us in the past, because of what ITV can offer them as a business, when someone such as Amazon or Netflix comes to them and offers them £10,000 more for doing the same job, they will move, whereas, in the past, they perhaps wouldn't have done so. So, of course, there's the cost of living—people have to think about their own lives and that's certainly having an impact at the moment.

Thank you. You mention that there are some skills gaps. Are there specific roles, therefore? In your evidence, a number of you referred to skills in terms of online and digital content. It would just be good for us to know in what sort of skills and what sorts of posts particularly you are seeing a shortage.

What I would say is that it's—. Digital journalists—they're one of the major factors here. I think, with a post such as that, because people have been working from home for the past two years, what we've found recently is that the training that we're providing to people—. It's had an impact on the kind of training that we can provide. So, as regards bringing people back to the office now, even though we are trying to strike a balance between how people live and allowing people to work from home part of the time, it is important that we try to bring them back into the office too. One of the things that we've found is that when people work from home, their training opportunities decline, in a way.

So, digital journalists is one post that I would point to. Craft editors, people who edit the images, there is a shortage of those in Wales, definitely. I know that Boom, who we work with very closely, are finding the same issue. Also, multi-skilled producers—somebody who can shoot, people who can edit the images themselves, someone who can do all of that—there is a shortage of those, we're finding, in the business, too.

We are seeing a shortage. In television, perhaps, where we're seeing a shortage is senior producers, production managers and series producers. So, there is great competition for those skills. And, once again, it's positive that all the work is there and that the industry is so busy, but there is a shortage. I do think, with some of the projects and courses that we offer, such as the Cynllun Carlam Ffeithiol Cymru scheme that we're doing jointly with Creative Wales, S4C, Channel 4 and the BBC, we're trying to look at the requirements in terms of training. That is training for freelancers, but it's only a limited number that we can train at any one time.

Also, I think the work that the National Film and Television School is doing is valuable in this field. They're trying to work with the sector and with broadcasters to look at what the requirements are, but, in a way, the industry is growing so quickly and, being so successful, it's difficult to meet the demand quickly enough. I know that Creative Wales is working on this in terms of the scheme they have, in looking at the skills and training that are needed, and I would welcome seeing that work and working in partnership.

Thank you.

Can I just add that, because we do everything through the medium of Welsh, our pool is even smaller? Wales now has such a good reputation in terms of attracting people into Wales because of the amount of work that is ongoing in Wales through players such as S4C. I agree with Sian that EPs, executive producers, editors, those people who do have that reputation, people go after those individuals and they then have a choice in terms of where they work. So, being a freelancer is difficult. We do most of our work through our independent partners, and, as regards, skills, what concerns me is that they're not coming through from the bottom up and starting from the ground up, and I think there needs to be a major focus there. And that's one of our priorities in S4C, with Creative Wales, to look at how we bring in apprentices and that we combine that with the ability to speak Welsh, and we help those people with their Welsh language skills so we have that flow coming through in the medium of Welsh. And of course, we want them to move on to other positions, but we need to ensure that we have that flow and pipeline coming through. There is a shortage in that regard at the moment. But the challenge is more difficult for us because we want people who speak Welsh, of course.

Thank you very much. Perhaps just to expand on that, obviously in terms of S4C and moving to the Egin and so forth, your role in terms of commissioning and skills is geographical. Are there challenges now—? And Sian Gwynedd, you also mentioned in terms of the BBC having to reduce the numbers of staff across Wales. Are there challenges in terms of ensuring that the industry continues to be an option wherever you are in Wales?

Yes, but that’s across Wales. Many of our productions—30 per cent of them—are in north Wales. We ensure that we operate across Wales. One of the things we do in S4C, picking up on what Sian said about the licence fee—. We have the most challenging two years, when you look at inflation and so on, if you look at the OBR. There's next year and the year after that, and then we’ll be going down to a flat rate. Our settlement increases in two years, so we have to absorb those costs for these next two years.

What we’re doing in S4C, exactly to your point, Heledd, is collaborating with our partners, and we’re looking at how we can—. We’re doing roadshows at the moment with all of our partners to speak to them to see how we can be more flexible. We’re starting to commission the work over a year, perhaps, where we know that there are peaks and troughs, and that we then help them with our commissioning to provide that collaboration with our partners. Can they share resources?

We’ve had good conversations with TAC and some of the major corporations such as Rondo; we’re seeing Cwmni Da on Friday. We’re doing this with everyone to see how we can share some of our skills and share some of our resources. I was with Gelert yesterday; they’re helping one of our smaller companies, Carlam in Carmarthen, Heledd. So, we want to ensure that we help to create that network of collaboration across Wales. I think it’s vital that we are part of the solution rather creating the problem, and in S4C we do want to be working with our partners to do that.

We have to be clear: there is a shortage, but how can we work together? Because from S4C we want to be ambitious, we want our priorities to be achieved, but we want to do that through collaboration rather than us creating more problems in the sector.

From the BBC’s point of view, it’s important for us that our content reflects the whole of Wales in terms of audiences across Wales. So, we’re working very hard with companies across Wales, including north Wales, mid Wales and west Wales. I know the English language tv commissioner worke with about 35, 36 independent companies last year, and they were across Wales. Radio stations are also working with companies across Wales. It’s worth saying that we’ve also got offices across Wales. We have about 100 members of staff in Bangor, for example. So, having staff and content and stories that reflect the whole of Wales is vital, and it’s something that we will be working very hard to continue with, because we do see that that has a benefit to audiences and is also beneficial to our content as well.

I would just say, in terms of Wales, that one of the things we have been doing is we have a new reporter in north Wales. We have three ITV Wales reporters in north Wales, and a new one in west Wales as well, and that’s the important thing for us—that we reflect the entirety of Wales. So, one of the things we have been doing recently is ensuring that that happens, and we are allocating more of our resource in the north.

Thank you very much. May I—?

If it’s quick.

A quick question. You spoke about inflation. Is that going to be having an impact in terms of how much you’re going to be able to commission? Do you think there’ll be a decline in the number of productions as a result of inflationary costs? Is that a risk?

I think it is a risk. I think there are financial challenges at the moment in terms of the BBC and the licence fee currently, and the cuts that we’re facing. And also, if you are looking at increasing costs of productions, it’s happening across everything, and inflation has an impact on everything, doesn’t it? So, I do think there is a risk.

Clearly, for BBC Cymru Wales, we've managed to make savings by moving to Central Square, using new technology, and looking at how we're working more efficiently. We're looking at working more in partnerships, as Siân said. That's vital to us to work more effectively with partners. And, clearly, what's important for us is that we are providing the best possible content for our audiences, and we'll be doing our best to protect that. But I think it's worth saying there is financial risk at the moment, because the financial challenges, perhaps, are bigger than they've ever been, and as inflation adds to that, I think there are significant challenges.

I'm sorry. We'll have to move on, I'm afraid. I know that there is a great deal to say on this issue, but because of time pressures we'll move to Hefin David. I think we have a problem with Hefin's sound. Can you hear me now? Okay. We can't hear you, Hefin. We'll go to Carolyn and then we'll come back to you, Hefin, because we can't hear you. Can the sound operators help Hefin, please? We'll go to Carolyn for now.

Thanks. I can't actually log—. Oh, it's come back. I was going to ask you a question about equality and diversity within the industry. How thorough and accurate do you think the data is regarding equality, diversity and inclusion in the screen industries in Wales, and how can it be improved? That's the first question.

From our perspective, we've got quite a lot of work to do from a data perspective. We're just putting in Diamond so that we can measure that. We've made a conscious effort to move towards being inclusive across Wales and representative of all of Wales, but I have to declare we've got work to do; it's one of our biggest priorities to do that. I think it's across all areas, though, from disability as well as equality of socioeconomic, and we're looking at all of that and how we can reflect Wales. One of the biggest things that we've done is put Gogglebocs on tv, which is very reflective of all of Wales and very visible as well. And it's made a difference in terms of perception, and so on, of the channel. It's a real priority for me, very close to my heart, and things that we are looking to do. However, we do work with a lot of people like It's My Shout and ScreenSkills to make sure that our priorities—. And therefore we can see that diversity coming through, not only in front of the camera but also behind, and that comes with its own challenges as well. But I can't tell you that my data is as good as it should be, and hopefully in a year's time when you speak to me, we will be in a much better place as a channel to be able to quote back where we're at in terms of our representation of across Wales.

In terms of BBC Wales, I think in terms of the data we have for the BBC Wales workforce, that's accurate, and we've seen some really good progress in terms of the workforce, I think especially in terms of gender, women into leadership, and also LGBTQ+. But I do think this is a huge priority area for us, diversity and inclusion, and I think we do have more work to do. And I think especially for us this year, we're looking at disability, so we've got a big year of focus in terms of disability, both in terms of on air and also on terms of workforce. So, we're launching new traineeships, but I think also in terms of staff engagement, confidence and training in this area. There's a lot of nervousness about talking about disability, so we've got a year-long campaign looking at that.

And then also, socioeconomic, as Siân says, is a challenge for us. Again, we're going to be doing a lot of work in terms of how we recruit, doing a lot of outreach, looking at how we get messages to schools and further education colleges that a career in the BBC could be for them. So, we're doing a lot of work to really focus in on those areas where we need to improve. We do have initiatives in place. Every tv commission now—and it has been in place for a few years—has to have 20 per cent of their production staff from a diverse background, and that includes not only BME but also disability and socioeconomic. So, I think we have got different measures in place, and we have seen a good improvement, but I do think there's a lot more that we need to be doing. I can't talk about the data across the sector; I'm not sure how accurate that is. But in terms of BBC Wales, we do have quite a lot.

Data is something, actually, that's really important to us at ITV, and it's something that actually we have at our fingertips. Because I think having it at your fingertips and having it front and centre shows the work that needs to be done. So, for example, in the newsroom, we have a—for those of you who have been in, you've probably seen it, actually—data diversity board that accurately reflects the people who have appeared on screen on the news the night before, and it's updated daily. So, you can see, front and centre, every day, areas that we need to concentrate our resource on.

But in terms of the workforce as well, holding data, again, we find really, really useful, because two thirds of the executive team at ITV Wales and two thirds of the people managers at ITV Wales are women, 7 per cent of the team are from a black, Asian and minority ethnic background, and 16 per cent of our colleagues are from an LGBT+ background. So, I think having the data helps us make changes and helps to improve and to concentrate on areas where we know we're not doing so well. For example, apprenticeships are a particular area where we've chosen to put part of our funding into. We've chosen to stop spending in certain areas to put money into apprenticeships, to bring people in from backgrounds that they wouldn't see themselves coming into tv from before.

I think the socioeconomic point is a really, really important one. I'm that person, so I believe passionately in that, that somebody from north Wales, from a family where nobody's gone to university—. We need all sorts of people coming into tv. So, having that right mix is really—. And the data is really important to us, which is why there is such a concentration in ITV on gathering that data and then reacting to that data.

You said about creating pathways, then, for people from diverse backgrounds. I was just wondering, how do you create these pathways for people who are going through education to know what jobs are out there? The variety is quite diverse and wide, isn't it, really, in the industry, and young people might not realise. Did you say you do that through Creative Wales, Siân?

We work with ScreenSkills.

I was just wondering how you make those connections with education, with leaving school, once they get to high school, as well as further education. Glyndŵr university have got an area when they're looking at schools, and Theatr Clwyd and Coleg Llandrillo are looking at maybe working together more to create more of a mass in north Wales, as well as learning from each other and sharing skills. So, I was just wondering how these connections are made into your industry and how does it all work.

We have somebody who goes round education, just talking about the opportunities, because it's not just about, 'You can be a cameraman'; you could be an electrician actually working in the creative sector, but it's just making that—. You know, it's just talking about all of the opportunities across. And I think I mentioned earlier, just bringing that start point and that group of people coming through, I think, is such a priority for us, and then putting them on apprenticeships, which includes learning Welsh as well as part of our purpose.

But I think there are things to think about that are really practical as well, because, for somebody who has to travel and there's no bus, don't just assume that they can actually turn up to work. Do you know what I mean? So, there are real things that we've got to think about and for us to be cognisant of in order to facilitate the skills to come into the sector. We do do apprenticeships—we've got some with ITV, actually, and ITV have been amazing in supporting us on our digital journalists as well—but it's got to be really purposeful and really thinking about how we can facilitate it. It's not just about the learning; it's about how do they get there—you know, real practical things. Sometimes, we assume that they can turn up at 7:30 for a shoot.

Yes. It has been raised with me by the principals—getting them there, and feeding them these days as well.

For sure. And I think there's a responsibility for us, with our sector and with our partnerships, to think about that as well.

Thank you.

I think it's really important that we do outreach and that we do go to schools and further education colleges, and I do think also going to schools and even primary schools earlier. We're doing a piece of work at the moment with Careers Wales to tie in with the new curriculum, saying about the breadth of roles in the BBC, and then they get a work pack to do, which is about telling stories, just to get their interest early and to give them that aspiration. Last year, we went out to, I think, 40 secondary schools as part of the 100 celebrations of the BBC, but also talked about apprenticeships and the breadth of roles in the BBC, so I do think outreach and the work that we do in schools is important. And just to mention that I think partnerships are really important as well. So, in terms of the pipeline, we work with It's My Shout. We work with Screen Alliance Wales really closely, and Culture Connect Wales, in terms of ethnic communities, and I think working together as partners to go out and to inspire young people to think about media and the creative industries is really important.

Okay, thank you. Do you want to go back to Hefin? Thank you.

Okay, thank you, Carolyn. We'll try Hefin again. Hefin, can you hear us now? And can we hear you?

Can you hear me?

Yes, fantastic. Hooray for technology. Okay.

Thank you. What role do private and public organisations have in terms of tackling poor pay, precarious work, and working conditions that are problematic? And are freelancers facing specific problems in terms of poor working conditions?

Thank you, Hefin. Who wants to start with that?

Can I just understand that first question again, sorry? It was difficult to hear.

Because there was a problem in terms of the sound. Just in terms of what role you think private and public organisations have in tackling poor pay and precarious work and problematic working conditions.

I hope it wasn't my poor Welsh that was causing the problem.

It wasn't that, Hefin, no, no, no—your Welsh was perfect.

No, it's just the sound, sorry. It wasn't—.

You Welsh was perfect, Hefin.

Well, it's part of our guidelines when we commission to make sure that the conditions are as S4C want to see them, and that's across every production that we do, and I think our role is important in ensuring (1) that we're doing the right thing with the people working for us, but also that we're bringing the best people to work with us. The productions that we make—we have very detailed processes and detailed guidance in terms of how we expect people to deal with them, and our role is important with that, I think.

I think that employee welfare and well-being is vitally important to us, and, as you would expect with BBC, we have very clear guidelines in terms of workforce well-being, and that includes freelancers, who are a very important part of our workforce. I think that between 6 per cent and 9 per cent, on average, of the BBC workforce are freelancers, and the independent sector is very dependent on those freelancers as well. So, we have guidelines in place. We have policies. We have information available to them in terms of their rights, to try to ensure that they not just receive a fair wage, but in terms of how they're treated in the workplace, and, if they have concerns or complaints, it should be clear then for them to raise those concerns with us. So, we work very closely with the independent sector and with the Producers Alliance for Cinema and Television and the Film and TV Charity too, to ensure we collaborate to make sure that working conditions are favourable.

Thank you for that, Sian. Before we come to you, Nia, Alun, did you want to come in on this? No, okay. Nia.

I would say exactly the same. People are the most important element that we have in our business, and making sure that people are happy, if they're staff or freelancers, is one of the most important things we need to do. That's what makes everything work, at the end of the day.

ITV is one of the first broadcasters to have the living wage accreditation, so we think that's vital, the fact that we can do that. That's across ITV, not just in Wales but across the whole of ITV as well. And that the pay of people, whether they're staff or contractors or freelancers, that the hourly rate that's being paid to them is updated every year by the Living Wage Foundation—we feel that that is vital, really. But, again, what I would say is that, when external people, Amazon or other bodies, come in and can offer more money to people—and they do offer more pay to people—that's the challenge we have in front of us.

Right. Thank you, Nia. We'll go back to Hefin.

Can you hear me now?

Yes, we can hear you perfectly.

At its workshop at the University of South Wales, the committee heard that bullying was common in the screen industry and workers found reporting bad behaviour difficult because of the close-knit nature of the sector. Do panelists recognise these reports, and how can the situation be improved?

Thanks, Hefin. That did emanate from the session that we had in the University of South Wales in terms of bullying, and that this particularly can be an issue when people come into the sector initially. So, whoever wants to go first on that.

We don't have—. I would take this, of course, seriously and do the right thing in terms of our guidelines. There are no specific examples that we have, but I would say that we are working with TAC in terms of training, in terms of mental health. We've just been filming—. You'll see a film by S4C, which will be out shortly, called Y Sŵn, which talks about the establishment of S4C, and we were piloting for that, where we had a girl working with them in terms of looking after the welfare of the people working on the film so that they could speak to people about their mental health and the circumstances in which they were working. We've also signed up to the Coalition for Change freelance charter. So, there's a lot of effort going on in the sector, each one of which we would be supporting, and there's so much we can do in terms of our productions. And we are seeing more from CULT Cymru, 6ft from the Spotlight, in terms of welfare, which is fantastic and is something new that started about four or five months ago, and we welcome all of that to make sure that we are creating the right atmosphere for the workforce, or on the set, which is quite pressurised anyway. So, it's important that we then understand how we support that.

We do have processes and guidelines in place, not just within BBC but also with all of our suppliers, and that's a discussion that we have with our suppliers regularly to ensure that they have guidelines in place in terms of how they treat their workforce and that it's clear to people how they raise concerns or if they need additional support. As Siân said, we would take any of these issues very seriously. Employee welfare and people being treated with respect in the workplace are vitally important to us, not just in terms of staff but in terms of freelancers and any productions—anyone working for the BBC. We would take all of that very seriously. But we work with partners to ensure that it's very clear how to escalate concerns or raise concerns and to ensure that there are programmes in place to safeguard the workforce, and, as Siân said, we're working with a number of bodies, including PACT and TAC, and the BBC is co-chairing the Coalition for Change too, which looks at freelancers' well-being.

Exactly as you said, ITV doesn't tolerate bullying or harassment at all. That's one thing I would say, in being a small team in a small office, if something like that happens, somebody else is going to see it and is going to shout it out. And I think that's the advantage of being in a small team: everybody works in an open-plan office, there are no smaller offices, nothing is happening, hopefully. One can see if something like that is happening.

We have a speaking-up policy for all members of staff. That is something that comes up every year, so that people know about that. Everybody has to fill in a survey on an annual basis to make sure that they know what support is available to them in ITV if an issue such as this should arise. There are regular catch-ups with line managers and staff, and also a forum to raise those sorts of concerns. One thing I would say that is good in ITV is that, if there is a relationship between a line manager and a member of staff and perhaps that's not a good relationship, which does happen sometimes, there are different line managers available in ITV. There is a culture where people can go to other people as well if there is something that they're not comfortable speaking about with a certain individual. So, I think atmosphere is the most important thing, how the office feels. And I've seen things happening where if somebody says something to somebody—this isn't bullying or harassment—if somebody says something that is inappropriate to a member of staff, I've seen somebody stopping them and saying, 'I'm sorry, we don't speak like that to each other here.' And I've seen that, and I think that's the best way of doing that so that everybody can see it, so that if somebody says something, somebody else in the office can say, 'I'm sorry, I'm not happy with that.'

Okay, thank you for that. Hefin, I think we'll have to move on now, because of time, unless there was something briefly that you wanted to ask.

One more question.

Okay.

Perhaps there's time for one more question. But if I can ask you to be as brief as possible in your answers. Sorry, I know this is an important subject.

Okay, Hefin. Fine.

Okay. I can't hear very well, so I'm assuming—

Sorry, Hefin. That's fine. That's fine.

Also at its workshop at the University of South Wales, the committee heard that mental health issues are common amongst young people entering the screen industries, and that microbusinesses in the sector don’t have sufficient HR capacity to help. So, how can this situation be improved? And would sharing services between companies be helpful in this regard, and who could provide them?

As has been said before, I think, there is so much collaboration across Equity, PACT, TAC. That is a big part of how we set the standard, but I do think, in terms of mental health specifically, what I was just talking about there with regard to Y Sŵn, which is the CULT Cymru 6ft from the Spotlight, where we have welfare staff on the set and working with the teams, is a great step forward when we know that mental health is a concern to all, and we'll see that more and more in our productions over the next few months with that example.

Thank you, Siân.

Yes, I would just echo that, that we do a great deal of work in this field. I think that it is an issue not just in our sector but in general, particularly post COVID, perhaps, where individuals were joining different companies and having to work at home and having to introduce themselves to companies in different ways. So, that's causing a great deal of work. We have policies in place for our staff and support available to them in terms of their mental health, and we also have initiatives such as less formal mentoring opportunities to support staff, but I think it's working in partnerships and it is important that we do talk about this issue openly, and that we collaborate as an industry to ensure that people feel that they can raise their concerns as well in terms of their mental health.

Thank you for that, Sian.

I'll be very brief and quick. Exactly the same: mental health is something that we talk about in team meetings on a regular basis. We have mental health first-aiders in the team; there are 10 of them now. When you think—we're a team of 100 in ITV Cymru, just to give you a sense of the proportion and how important we feel that is. So, again, if someone is not comfortable going to one person, they have a group of people that they can approach. They're not counsellors, that's not the intention, but they are people that other members of staff can approach to get help straightaway, if anyone has concerns. ITV also has an employee assistance programme. That's external help, if they want to speak to somebody outside of the team at ITV as well.

Thank you very much to you all for that. Thank you. We'll move to Alun Davies.

Thank you, and thank you very much for giving of your time this morning. I've been looking at the strategy—or the scheme or whatever the Government has decided to call it this time—to develop the creative skills. They launched it back in September, I believe. What do you think about that scheme?

I have to say that I welcome the work that we're doing with Creative Wales; it's something that's so important in S4C's strategy and it's true that they have been listening to the sector and have been talking to us.

So, you've been part of creating this scheme.

We have provided input, certainly.

Have you been part of creating the scheme?

We've been part of giving feedback, definitely, to Creative Wales.

That's not quite the same, is it? You've contributed to it, you haven't shaped it.

From the point of view of BBC Cymru Wales, we have had a memorandum of understanding in place for some time in terms of collaboration with them, and there are regular meetings. They discuss opportunities to collaborate on the content on the creative side, but they also discuss training, skills and the industry more widely. So, those meetings, I think, are taking place on a regular basis, they're very open and they're very constructive, and I know from working on schemes such as the Carlam Ffeithiol scheme and working with Creative Wales, we discuss skills and training very often as part of those, and we look at the needs in the industry.

Looking through the action plan, I think that we welcome very much the fact that there is now a plan and a corpus of people looking at what skills are needed. I think it's also important, as the plan states, that it is reviewed every six months and there's a discussion with the industry in terms of their needs and requirements and what skills and training are required, because they change very frequently. But I would welcome the focus on apprentices, the focus on diversity and inclusion, but there's also quite a specific focus too on working with schools earlier on in the process and of creating a skills and talent plan amongst earlier ages for the industry in future. So, I would welcome the areas that have been focused on and they align with our priorities.

Thank you. Siân, just to go back to you, are you saying that you have put an application in?

We've been working with them on the application, and the purpose of that application is one of our priorities that I've spoken about before, which is that we're really looking at how people enter the sector and welcoming people to be on apprenticeships. So, we focus very greatly now on—we've got an apprenticeship with the college of music and drama—specifically how we bring more people into the sector to try to train them, particularly through the medium of Welsh and that the Welsh language is an essential part and a clear part of any scheme that we introduce in terms of training and apprenticeships. TAC support us with that as well. So, I welcome very much what we're doing with skills now, with looking at it particularly through the medium of Welsh, Alun. That's important to us.

Thank you.

I was on the panel as one of the people—

Okay, so. you're responsible. [Laughter.]

—who shaped the plan, and what I would say that I found in being part of that process, is that working together is the vital thing to see where the gaps are. That's one of the most important things of all. What I would say, to ensure that we maximise the benefits from this, what I found—because Creative Wales does excellent work, but they are a small team. Some of the things that we are asking for, that we're trying to do, that we're trying to push forward are working more with Careers Wales and trying to ensure that children know more about this industry, and they are a small team; they can't do all of this work on their own. One of the things that I found is that if we want to develop the skills action plan in Wales, to see where the gaps are, it's fine to do that work now, but that work has to carry on. We have to get the data to ensure that if people come into the business, are they remaining in the business? If people receive grants from some sources, where does that funding go? Do those people stay in the business? I don't think, at present, there is sufficient resource allocated for us to be able to follow that, I would say personally.

That's very interesting. Just for me to understand this process, you were appointed by the Government, by the Minister, there are 10 of you—

I was the broadcast representative.

Thank you. Nia, could you explain the process that you followed in terms of creating the scheme?

So, we all came together, and what Creative Wales wanted to do, really, was to speak to everyone across the business in Wales to see where there were gaps in the skills available and to understand exactly where those gaps were—I think we all know, broad brush, where the gaps are—but to try to go into detail in terms of where we're going to focus resource and we're going to focus in general to get people in with the skills.

One of the things that I found as being part of the process, as an example, is that work in the schools is one of the most important things of all. A child in school sees working in television—. From our point of view, what they see is somebody who is on Ant and Dec. They don't see the kinds of jobs and roles in the world of television; I'm someone who works behind the camera, they don't see those jobs behind the camera. And that's one of the things that I saw; we have to go right back. It's fine to look at where the gaps are now, and there is work to do to provide training where the gaps currently are, but I think we have to take it right, right back to the beginning in terms of the curriculum, be that with Careers Wales when they speak to children about their options—. That's what I saw, as being part of this process, is that there is a great deal of work to do. It's not a quick fix, it will take time, and it's something that we will have to roll forward.

I appreciate that. Do you think the Government is investing enough? A million has been set as the budget, but, of course, that's been cut from the current budget, so there's about £800,000 or £700,000 currently. Is that sufficient? Nia, you were just saying that there are big gaps—

I think I've answered the question in a way. I think the intention of that fund was for people to bid for funding to help with this, but is it sufficient? No, I don't think it is, to be completely honest. I think there's so much work to be done, I would say 'no'. I think it's a real back-to-basics situation—where we spend that money. A million isn't going to go very far.

And I take it that you agree with that.

I would say that there is a need now in terms of the skills that we need today, but we also need to think about what we will need in the two, three, four, five years to come, and how broadcasting is changing, because you're becoming more digital—the different platforms. I now take on people who are data scientists and know how to do eWise, and we have to understand, then, how those skills work in the sector too, and I don't think we've quite understood how that is going to work, because we now are generally looking for people who can edit and produce. So, I think there are two streams now: where we are today, but we have to genuinely think—and we have to start doing this now—what we'll need in three or four years, and they're different skills.

Can I just ask you how much you're investing in training? And if you can't answer that straight away, I'm happy to receive a letter from the three organisations explaining how you're contributing resources, BBC, S4C and so forth, to training. I tend to think that not enough is being invested by the Government, but what would be enough? I'm not quite sure that I know that either. But I also think that partnership is required, because you have your own investments that you want to introduce.

In terms of BBC Wales, I can't give you an exact figure in terms of how much we spend on training. I think that we do do a great deal on training, especially in looking forward. So, we have a scheme for new directors; we have a scheme with Ffilm Cymru, Beacons, with opportunities for people to put together documentary films too. So, I agree, in terms of training, partnerships are vitally important, and the majority of the training schemes that we offer are done in partnership.

I also think, in terms of training, we do make a great deal of investment in apprenticeships. We have 26 in BBC Cymru Wales at the moment across a diverse range of departments—technology, operations, radio, news, sport and so on. We'll have another 17 joining us in September of this year, and we're working very hard to ensure that we target diversity, that we target different areas across Wales in terms of those apprenticeships. And it's worth saying, yes, it is an investment by BBC Cymru Wales in apprenticeships, but, very often, a number of them will go on to work for the BBC, but a number of them will go on to work as freelancers and in the wider sector, so we see it as an investment in the wider sector too. But I think that the collaboration with the screen alliance, and with bodies such as It's my Shout, that we as broadcasters collaborate on plans such as the Carlam Ffeithiol scheme. There is investment in terms of that training, and just to echo what Siân said, it feels as the moment that we are responding to the current challenges, and looking at what the need currently is, and perhaps we need to look further ahead in terms of future skills, and what those might be. That goes back to the work that we’re doing with schools.

It would be good if you could write to us and try and bring together what you’ve all just said. Because historically you’ve been the engines of growth in the industry in Wales, and it’s through you that we’ve created this industry in Wales. I’m interested in understanding—because there are partnerships between a number of organisations—how you contribute to that. Sorry.

I think that it’s not just about how much money we provide, and funding, but also about the mechanics, and how we can bring people into the industry. For example, we’ve signed with one company that provides drama, and part of that is that they have to provide training, and new people and people who are learning are part of the production, so that we’re providing the experience on a live basis. Because really, that’s how they’re going to grow. I was with Gelert yesterday; they had two people with them who had started from nothing and brought them up to be visual editors on the film that we’re doing. So, we will provide you with the letter, Alun, but I think it’s more than funding and money; it’s also the mechanics that we're trying to use—

Money is important, of course.

Money is important, yes, of course it is, because it costs to bring somebody in as an apprentice on a film. But the investment is softer sometimes than just the training programme, and I think we can go through all of that with you.

I’m grateful for that. Just one final question from me: how are you working—? The three of you, in different ways, have said that you are looking to the future and the new skills that will be required in future, and that is vital, of course. You aren’t training people to work as they used to, but we all know one thing about the future, which is that we don’t know exactly what is going to happen. So how are you working with organisations such as universities and the academic sphere to understand how things are changing, how the world is changing, and how organisations and institutions. such as—when I was working in the industry, organisations such as BT, for example, made a major contribution in terms of how television is going to change in future, when we can all broadcast on our phones, and I had never heard of such a phone at the time. How are you working with businesses and organisations to understand how the future will change the way that you broadcast currently?

We have many ways in S4C. From my experience—I’ve been in telecoms; I was working with them, and the world is changing so quickly. We’re working currently—we have just created a workforce to look at where we think the audience is going to be and what user experience we want them to have to get them to our platforms at S4C. So there’s work in going from the strategy over the next two or three years so that we’re in front of it as much as possible.

We’re also working with Media Cymru, and I think that the work that that team is undertaking is special. The work that they’re doing for us in looking at data and what the role of data is, and things such as voice recognition in the broadcast world. So, there are a lot of things going on to start looking at two, three years forward while also dealing with what’s going on today. And we’re also now looking at taking people on from universities to help us, in particular data scientists, for example, a job that I knew nothing about when I was in school. And these things change so quickly, particularly with social media. So there’s a lot of work—for example, we’re dealing with YouTube directly to see what they’re doing, and I think there are a number of sources to see what’s coming, and to try and see what’s happening. But things are happening so quickly, that’s the reality, and things are changing so quickly in the broadcast world.

I think that the work that Media Cymru is doing is very valuable to us in terms of bringing bodies together in the industry, and different parts of the sector, including universities and higher education. And there is a space and funding there to invest looking to the future, and to look at what developments in terms of technology we need to be experimenting with, or developing. We are also partners with Media Cymru, and the work that they're doing is very valuable.

With regard to universities and colleges, I think that there is a healthy relationship and conversation in terms of future needs. For example, we are next door to the journalism school in Cardiff, and journalism has changed significantly and it will change in terms of digital and how people access news. So, we work together very closely in terms of what kinds of skills we expect them to have as journalists, but also they have a cohort of young people there who understand what the needs of younger audiences are in terms of news. So, we work with universities and higher education, but I think that partners such as Media Cymru, who bring people together to develop those discussions, are very important.

Before go to Nia, sorry, I'm aware that we have four minutes left. Would the three of you be able to stay a few more minutes, because I'm aware that Tom has been waiting patiently for the final question? Thank you. Sorry, Nia.

I would say the same. From my experience, what I have found is that the forum has been very useful in bringing us together so that we can tell the colleges what exactly we require, and I think they help to shape what they teach then. The relationship that we have with CJS and Cardiff and Vale, again, just having that direct link, that's the way forward, I think, for them to understand exactly what we require these days.

One thing I would say is that what I find sometimes is that people working in these forums, and so on, they need to be people who have worked in this industry recently helping to shape courses in colleges, and so forth. The business has changed so much in the last 20 years, what I would say now is that somebody who was working in the business 20 years ago, it's completely different to what it is now. So, somebody who is teaching in a college who has left the business 20 years ago, the business is completely different these days, and I think that is something that we and they need to be aware of and need to think of as well. Things have transformed completely since all of us came into the industry.

Thank you for that. We'll go to Tom; last but not least, we'll go to you, Tom.

Thank you, Delyth. Just one question from me. I'm just wondering, over and above anything you've already mentioned, do you feel like the workforce needs any further support from public bodies, both in relation to the increased costs of living, and perhaps more broadly?

Well, the cost of living is going to be a real challenge, Tom, and we've talked about it earlier. I think, like the BBC, our settlement is flat for the next couple of years, so it's a real real-term hit for us and we've got to find very creative ways. I think, as much as we can work with people like Cymru Greadigol and Media Cymru to invest in the sector and continue that in order to make sure that we get through these next couple of years, and the hump that we have—I think that would be great—but also, I think perhaps to my point earlier, I think we need to start looking at what we need in the future in Wales, not just what we need today. I do think that, together, we can start thinking about how we can continue to have a really buoyant creative sector by looking two, three, four, five years forward of what the requirements will be, and I think that would be a really good partnership.

I cannot say anything bad about Creative Wales; our relationship is so good and they are so supportive, and challenging, rightly so, in making sure that we create the right things in Wales. They're supporting us now with things like the film fund that we launched with Dawn before Christmas. Those kinds of things, I think we still need to do that in order for the Welsh language to be great in Wales, but also world wide, because I'm very proud of what we do. We punch way above our weight, as we know, and therefore I want to continue that through the Welsh language and see how we can go out to the world with a creative sector that's so buoyant. So, just carry on the partnerships, I think, would be my piece, and look to the future, and continue to do so.

Thank you, Siân. Sian.

Yes, I agree, really. I think in terms of the relationship with Creative Wales, it's working really well, and for that constructive open dialogue to continue. And I also think, as Alun says and Siân said just now, partnerships, I think, are really, really crucial, and that we collaborate and work together. I think, especially in terms of things like apprenticeships and training and skills, that we do come together collectively and work together to try and tackle it. Because financially, it is challenging, so I think by doing that, it can really make a difference.

I'd very much echo the same thing, really, that Creative Wales have been really, really instrumental in bringing us together and avoiding duplication. I think, definitely from my perspective—. I think it's a complicated question, the cost-of-living question. ITV have made a cost-of-living payment to staff, but there's only so much individual broadcasters can do; it's a bigger question, this one. But I think getting rid of duplication is probably the biggest thing, and partnerships is definitely the way forward there.

Diolch. Tom, is there anything else you wanted to—?

No, that's great. Thank you.

Okay. Great. Thank you to the three of you for the evidence, and thank you for being flexible in terms of time as well. There are some things, perhaps, that we'll need to write to you, to ask for more detail. There will be a transcript of what's been said today sent to you for you to check that it's a fair representation of what you've said. But thank you once more for your evidence; it's been very useful. Thank you very much.