Petitions Committee

Okay. That brings us to our next item on the agenda, which is an evidence session with the Members of the Senedd's Welsh Youth Parliament on the following petitions: P-06-1264, 'For school transport guaranteed for all comprehensive children'; P-06-1343, 'Provide free public transport for all secondary school pupils'; and P-06-1346, 'Provide free and accessible public transport for under 18s in Wales to lower carbon emissions and boost growth'.

I'm pleased to say we have two Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament with us. We have Ffion Fairclough, the Member of the Senedd's Welsh Youth Parliament for Pontypridd, and Kasia Tomsa, the Member of the Senedd's Welsh Youth Parliament for Blaenau Gwent. And along with them, we have Elin Hargrave in the room today with us, who is the Senedd's education and youth engagement officer, and also, online, we have Bethan Roberts, who is also the Senedd's education and youth engagement officer.

I know the Welsh Youth Parliament have been working extremely hard on this topic and we are grateful for you considering the three petitions and coming in front of us today. I'm aware there's a presentation that you will be presenting to us today, so, without further ado, I'd like to hand over to you and thank you for being here with us, and we very much look forward to this session with you, so, I'll hand over for you to start.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. We'll be sharing our findings and the recommendations of our 'Sustainable Ways' report on public transport and active travel, which link with three separate Senedd petitions, including calls for free public transport for all secondary school pupils; free and accessible public transport for under-18s; and free transport for all secondary school pupils—all of which are covered in our report.

Several things came to light, including young people's desire to travel on cheaper public transport. We call on the Welsh Government to provide free public transport for all under-25s. Our survey results showed that an astonishing 72 per cent of young people, and a number of fellow Welsh Youth Parliament Members, didn't know that there were schemes in Wales to make using public transport more affordable for young people, such as MyTravelPass, even though so many of these young people referenced cost as one of the main barriers to using public transport, which we will return to later in this report.

The Welsh Government need to take this figure into account and work on their ways of marketing these schemes, to make sure they are well known. We were surprised to see that adults also had little awareness of these schemes, which, given how much of an impact parents, guardians and carers have on young people's travel choices, is a cause for concern. Furthermore, 74 per cent of young people told us that they would use public transport a lot or a little more often if it was free. There are significant affordability issues as well as social and economic inequality preventing us from using public transport and active travel at present.

Whilst we are supportive of the schemes that are already in place to make travelling by public transport less expensive, we ultimately believe that public transport should be free for young people under the age of 25. We think this would encourage more young people to do the same as they get older. This could also lead to behaviours being formed that will see young people continue to use public transport when they become adults. Likewise, we would be more likely to cycle to our place of learning or work if the provision of cycle lanes, cycle schemes, bike parking security and paths were improved.

Many of the young people we engaged with told us that frequency and availability of public transport in their area are barriers preventing them from using these services. Thirty per cent felt that the frequency of bus services was 'good' or 'very good', compared to 32 per cent for train services. When it came to the reliability of bus services, 30 per cent of young people said it was 'good' or 'very good'; 30 per cent 'neither good nor bad'; and 24 per cent 'bad' or 'very bad'. Trains were seen as slightly more reliable, with 31 per cent rating them 'good' or 'very good'; 25 per cent as 'neither good nor bad'; and 19 per cent 'bad' or 'very bad'. However, in our events and focus groups, and in a large number of comments in our survey, young people expressed a great deal of frustration with the reliability of services in their area. It's clear to us that public transport needs to reach further than it does at the moment. The frequency of these services needs to increase. They need to be reliable and joined up, and journey times need to be shorter.

Thank you, Kasia. Despite the positive sentiment expressed by people towards travelling by public transport, if public transport continues to be seen as inconvenient, a high percentage of the population will then choose more convenient options, such as travelling by car. On that basis, we feel that more should be invested in our public transport services to ensure that the numbers using these services increase.

Our recommendations call for the following: for places of learning to put a greater emphasis on improving young people's understanding of the practicalities of how they can travel sustainability in their local area; an increase in efforts to promote sustainable travel and schemes like MyTravelPass; the introduction of free public transport for people under the age of 25; the introduction and effective promotion of schemes to support young people to access equipment like bikes; greater investment in our public transport services, with a focus on expanding public transport routes, increasing the frequency of services, ensuring that services are reliable and reducing journey times.

We are also calling on the Welsh Government to improve connectivity between different modes of sustainable travel, to remove barriers facing different groups, including neurodiverse young people and those with physical disabilities, and to increase investment in active travel routes, with a focus on improving safety and accessibility.

Specifically, we would like to see a greater number of bike, walking and wheeling paths; more segregated cycle lanes; improvements to the condition of paths and pavements; an increase in the amount of secure bike parking facilities in communities, and particularly in places of learning; improvements in how information regarding public and active travel is made available and communicated, making it more accessible, so that it's easier to see how various modes of travel can be used to get to the end destination; improved provision of real-time information to show the progress of and updated arrival times for public transport when there are delays; the provision of a ticketing option that enables young people to use tickets across several modes of public transport; a co-ordinated campaign to reduce anti-social behaviour and discrimination against marginalised groups of young people; and for places of learning to support this within the delivery of the Curriculum for Wales.

We presented our findings in the Siambr on Saturday, and they were broadcast on Senedd.tv. We look forward to receiving our full written response from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on everything that the Government proposes to do in response to our report. Thank you.

Well, Ffion, Kasia, diolch yn fawr for your presentation in front of us this afternoon, and I was aware, over the weekend, that you presented findings in the Siambr. I think that is something you should both be proud of, and your colleagues on the Welsh Youth Parliament should be proud of as well. We as a committee take these issues very seriously, and we too will look forward with interest to see the Deputy Minister's response to your report, one that I think is well thought out and makes some sound recommendations to the Welsh Government. Your presentation has of course prompted some questions from members of this committee, so if I could start by asking Joel James for his contribution, and, Kasia, Ffion, if you would like to respond—both of you can, or if one has a particular view, please do so. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon to give evidence to the committee. I suppose I just wanted to ask the one question. I know you've touched upon it briefly in your presentation there and you highlighted issues with affordability, the practicality of the bus network in terms of the timetabling. But then also you highlighted something that was quite important in terms of the accessibility, and that's something I didn't necessarily take into account. So, we're taking into account accessibility for, say, disabled travellers but not for younger ones. I'm looking at some of the buses I used to catch when I was a kid, and how high the steps were there, really; I can remember that quite vividly. But I just wanted to get some idea, as succinctly as possible, of the biggest practical barriers you see that prevent young people from catching public transport and the buses and that sort of thing. Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. Kasia.

Yes. So, the four main barriers that we focused on within our report were cost, reliability, safety and accessibility. Cost was shown to the biggest barrier, and that's the main reason we're calling for free public transport for under 25s. I know public transport costs a lot in my area, and, given Blaenau Gwent is one of the deprived areas in Wales, it's really important that we get those costs down. Safety was another priority for us. I know, for instance, there are a lot of areas that aren't very well lit, and then it makes it quite difficult to travel to school by actively walking. And I know that I love running, for instance, in the evening, but in the winter I feel uncomfortable doing that because it's so dark in some areas around here.

Reliability was our third focus, and I know that's definitely a huge one. There have been a number of cases where I've been waiting on the train platform and it's been cancelled, so I've had to find a different route to college. And even today, I had the invitation to go to the Senedd, but I couldn't because the trains were cancelled to Cardiff. So, those were the three focuses, and the additional one was accessibility. I know Tegan was born blind and she gave a question in the Senedd on the weekend about how she relies on public transport as her mode of transport, because she's unable to drive. And so it's really difficult for her if trains are cancelled or if they're really expensive, and buses as well.

I hope you don't mind me coming in there. It's a good example there where you mentioned about Tegan. Did she highlight any other issues there, because I know, from the casework I've been dealing with, people are reluctant to catch the train because there are concerns over not knowing when the stops are, not knowing when their train has arrived, and, in some cases, with the ticket booths, because they're unmanned at the moment, there are concerns about not being able to purchase tickets as well, really. Did Tegan highlight that as well?

I think she mentioned fear over being left on the platform and not being able to board the train, yes.

Thank you, Kasia. Ffion, is there anything you'd like to add on this particular point?

Yes. I just wanted to add, obviously, we were focusing on cost, reliability, accessibility and safety, but there was something that came to mind. I'm from Pontypridd, so I spoke to a lot of people in my area in the Valleys, and a lot of them told me that all of those barriers also stop them from getting opportunities and being able to—. For example, going to a museum is free, but it's not free for some people because if they have to catch the train and pay more money than they would get on the minimum wage at the moment, it's not free. People miss out then on those cultural opportunities that others can get through being able to afford it. So, I think that's one big thing coming from the Valleys particularly, and talking to the young people there, that if there was better—. If public transport was free or the cost reduced a lot, then they'd be able to do things that maybe, for example, people in Cardiff have more of an opportunity to do because it's on their doorstep.

Okay. Diolch, both, for that. I think they're very valid points. It's a conversation I had just on Friday with a constituent of mine when talking about the Wrexham to Bidston line. I noticed this morning the first social media I get is an angry constituent because the train from Wrexham to Bidston had again being cancelled. So, an issue right across Wales, as you suggest. I'll turn to Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you very much, Chair. I’d better make a declaration of interest at the outset—even though I don’t know Ffion, I know her grandfather very well. He was the best man at my father’s wedding, and he was my reference for my first job. Very often I answered his questions when he was a judge in the Crown Court, so it’s nice to be able to ask you questions today, Ffion, as his granddaughter. I feel very old saying that I know somebody’s grandfather, but that is the situation we’re in.

Your presentation was very interesting, and you've seen that we have three petitions. The three are very similar in nature, but they’re different as well. The first is about comprehensive schools, and school transport to comprehensive schools; the second one is about secondary schools; and the third is about everyone under 18. Of course, you go a step further. You’re asking for free transport for everyone under 25. So, what’s your opinion about these three specific petitions? And do you have any recommendations about what we should do in terms of a decision on these three specific petitions? Thank you.

I think our work is very closely related to those three petitions. I think we're calling for free public transport for young people under 25, which of course relates very closely with those petitions. I've noticed accessibility within those petitions as well, and I think that's also really important. We did hear evidence in the south Wales #SustainableWays survey of young people living just inside the three-mile rule and not being able to access safe roads or having to pay for transport to get to schools. We know the situation is true for some sixth-formers in rural north Wales too, so I think it's really important that we call for free public transport for young people under 25, and accessibility for all young people as well.

Thank you. Ffion.

Yes, I just wanted to add that, although they're mainly discussing people under 18, I think, as we've focused on people under 25, I'm 18 now and I'm at university and I still find that I have no time to get a job. So, I live on my loan, and so I still think young people are in the same situation, whether they're under 18 or under 25. Especially at the moment, many young people are going to university, and they're in the same situation, and they miss out on opportunities. I think that's it's a good idea to get it for people who are under 18, and that would the first step, perhaps, but I think it's important to note that people aged between 18 and 25 also struggle. Thank you.

Could I ask one supplementary question, Chair? Two of the petitions are about people within the education system. Are you concerned that if we pursue the first two petitions, we would leave out those who have left education and are pursuing other things, like apprenticeships, or starting work? Do you think it's important to include those people as well, not just those within the full-time education system?

Yes, I agree entirely, because education isn't necessarily for everyone, and a number of people I know have gone straight into work, and they need to pay for petrol, because they can't rely on public transport, or the cost is too high for them to pay for public transport. I also spoke—I've already mentioned this—on Saturday about the fact that the minimum wage for people is far lower than what it costs them to travel to work. I've spoken to a number of people about that in my area. For example, it costs around £8 for me to travel to Cardiff and back, and the minimum wage is lower than that, so, if I wanted to get a job in Cardiff, that would be a big barrier for me as a young person. Thank you.

I could see Kasia nodding in agreement throughout that answer there. We'll stay on the screen and zoom over to Buffy Williams in the Rhondda, for questions from her.

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for joining us this afternoon, and also thank you for your presentation, which was really informative. Your report recommends free transport for under-25s—I know that you've just touched on this with Rhys—but why not free transport for all? And have you thought about the cost?

Who would like to answer that question? Ffion.

Obviously, free transport for all would be incredible, but I think particularly under-25s struggle more with, as I just mentioned, the minimum wage, for example. So, that's a big barrier. But we have thought about the cost, and the Minister was saying in the meeting on Saturday that there's just not a lot of funding at the moment. But even if there were just little steps that could reach to our target, if we could look at MyTravelPass, for example, that's reducing the cost for buses, but obviously, trains are another key factor of public transport, and I think it would be great if we could include it for the trains as well. As well, I think we need to raise awareness of these schemes, because many people we talked to—. I can't remember exactly what the figures were, but a lot of people in our survey said that they weren't aware of these schemes. So, obviously, it will cost a lot, but I think there are little steps we can take to make a difference, and hopefully then, lead, in the end, to free public transport for under-25s.

Diolch. Kasia, before you come in to answer, perhaps you could expand a bit more on what a campaign to raise awareness of the schemes available would look like and how the Welsh Government might be able to help.

First of all, for the first question, I completely agree with what Ffion has said. I do think that, potentially, we could call for free public transport for under-25s at first and then maybe expand that as time goes on, if we get the additional funding in the future.

And going back to the second question, I think it all starts in schools, really. We've got a new curriculum coming in very soon and it's a great opportunity for us to really put this into the curriculum and to show young people that these schemes are available.

Thank you for that. We're very lucky to be joined by the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, who is much more competent in questioning on that sector than I am, so I'm sure that we'll hear from Jayne Bryant later on. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Chair. A warm welcome to the committee this afternoon. It's great to see you here. Thank you for your presentation; it's been very interesting. We know that transport options in larger cities, like Cardiff and Newport, are easier and greater—particularly for young people, but for everyone. Compared with the areas that you represent, Pontypridd and Blaenau Gwent, which are more in the Valleys—and you've already mentioned, haven't you, Kasia, about Blaenau Gwent and the problems in terms of transport, particularly in travelling across the Valleys, not just up and down—did you consider in your report the element of fairness in terms of how we can be fair to those in the Valleys and more rural areas compared with those in larger cities, such as the four major cities of Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Wrexham, the areas where there are easy options in terms of public transport?

Who would like—? Kasia.

In our report, we call for free public transport for all under-25s, no matter where in Wales they are from, and the same stands for reliability, accessibility and safety. We want every person under 25 to be able to get onto those public transport services and say that they feel they are safe and that they find them reliable and low cost, and accessible as well. We did take a focus on rural public services, and we did call for improvements in rural-area public transport. I know that's definitely something that we really need to improve in Blaenau Gwent, and that transport between the different areas within Blaenau Gwent and the Valleys. So, yes, I think it's really important that we improve them for rural areas.

I'd like to come back, and maybe Ffion would like to take this, or maybe Kasia as well. Would you, therefore, be in favour of sharing—if there is a pot of money available, that that would be shared more in Valleys and rural areas, rather than with city centres?

I agree with that, because at least a third of those who we surveyed came from rural areas, and so they are really concerned about the situation with public transport at present. I think that people in Cardiff, for example, are more likely to be able to walk to places and they're more likely to use public transport, and therefore if we put more money into funding rural areas and the Valleys, then it will be fairer, in my opinion.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Pred. You went through this during your presentation, but just to get it back onto the record, you mentioned that there needs to be a joined-up approach in services from buses to trains. I think that's one everyone here supports. But is it worse with buses, or is it worse with trains, or is it equally as bad? Kasia and then Ffion.

I'm not totally sure, if I'm honest. I know I've had some struggles between the trains and the buses where I get in to my local station and then I have to wait quite a long time for a bus, but I'm not sure if you have any more thoughts on that, Ffion.

I'm not 100 per cent sure, but personally, from my own experience, I've found reliability and things like that worse with buses. I find it quite difficult to look up a timetable for the buses and where to find it, and they don't usually come on time at all. I remember when, sometimes, I'd stay after school for some activities after school, so I'd catch a public bus home then, and even though it said it would come at 16:10, I'd be waiting until 16:30, something like that. So, I think that is something with buses,. But then, with trains, there's more of a problem with cost, in my opinion. The trains come on time a bit better than the buses, but I find that the cost of them is just too much, so I think it's a bit of both in different ways.

Just one final question from me, and then I will bring in the Chair of the children and young people committee. Ffion, you mentioned the access and the timetable. For me, that would be going on my phone or the app and finding the bus or train that I want to get on and look at it. Is it a case of the information once you're there perhaps not being live and up to date, as expected? So, you were expecting a bus at 16:10, and it turned up at half past—was it the fact that you didn't know, or was it more of a struggle just finding the information generally?

I think it's more just the updates when you're there, because I can find the times okay. On the trains, I think it updates a bit better. I use the Trainline app, and that does update quite well, but with the buses, personally I haven’t found something like that, and so you're just waiting around and it’s just stops you then from wanting to use the bus, because you don’t know if you’re going to get there on time. So, yes, updating the apps and things like that would be very useful.

Thank you. Again, I could see Kasia nodding. Do you have anything to add to that?

I think one of the greatest difficulties I have found is actually locating where I need to be for the bus in the first place. I went to the Senedd recently in Cardiff and I found the buses quite difficult to orientate. It was kind of, ‘Which of the bus stops do I need to actually be at?' And I asked quite a few members of staff at the train station and in the transport services, and they were very difficult to find, the buses that I needed.

Thank you for that. I'm going to bring Peredur Owen Griffiths in for a supplementary, then I promise I'll get round to Jayne Bryant.

Just a very short one. I’m just interested in, following on from what you both said around if—. Because the cost is so much more on a train than a bus, even though the bus might be harder to navigate, do people tend to go more for a bus because it’s cheaper, and therefore does that add to, then, the argument of, if it was free, then it would help? So, I suppose, if they were both free, which one would you go for? And then, is the price differential a big factor in which form of transport you choose?

Ffion and then Kasia.

If they were both free, I think I’d go for a train, just because of my experience with the reliability of the buses. I do find that people tend to go on buses more, because I guess there are more stops closer to where they live than train stations, but also the cost is a big factor. I've told all my friends about MyTravelPass and so they’ve all got it, so they’re like, ‘Oh, we’ll save a bit of money by using the bus’, but then when you said, 'If they were both free', I’d use the trains more, just because of their reliability. But then again, if the buses were more reliable, I’d probably use the buses more, because they’re more convenient to get to. So, it’s a bit of a tricky one.

I agree with what Ffion said. I think it really depends on where you’re going and where you’re going from. I know for me to get a college, there’s quite an easy train route. However, that is more expensive than the bus route, so I think if they were both free, I’d definitely go with the train route. But again, if I was going somewhere else, I’d probably need to get a bus, because the train might not run there. I think it depends on where you are and where you’re going.

I will come to the Cadeirydd of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. It’s a real pleasure to join you today. I’d like to put on record my thanks for the invitation to this session today. I did actually have the privilege of being in the Siambr when Ffion and Kasia both were there on Saturday, so I’d recommend everybody watch that session back, because it really was inspiring. So, please watch that back. It's nice to see you both again.

I just want to say as well that I’m really pleased that you’re able to give evidence to the Petitions Committee on this, because it is really important. You’ve done a lot of work on this already, as we’ve talked about, particularly through that 'Sustainable Ways' work that’s been going on. I think the work that you’ve done on engagement has been really good, so I think all committees can learn from you, as I said on Saturday.

I know your work is wider on this, and, Ffion and Kasia, you’ve made clear already the importance of looking beyond learner travel and school transport issues, but our work on the committee, as you know, is focused very much on that school transport and college transport point. So, I was just wondering if you could perhaps talk about that aspect again, around the importance of free transport, as you suggested, for learners going to and from college or school. Have you looked in particular at other areas where this has perhaps worked, or the impact in other areas, such as in London, where there's free public transport for under-16s?

Who would like to come in first? Kasia.

Yes. First of all, I think it's definitely very important to have free public transport for young people going to education. Everyone has the right to a free education. So, I think that's really important. We didn't really look at London as such, however, we did look at Germany. I think there it's free public transport for under-16s, and that has been shown to be really successful in terms of reducing their carbon emissions, and things like that. So, yes, I think that's really important.

Ffion.

Yes. I think, after we looked a bit at Germany, we saw that carbon emissions, as Kasia said, reduced, and I guess it's become more of a habit, then, for younger people to use public transport, and that will just lead into the future and reduce carbon emissions. We are on the climate committee, so that was one key factor of reducing the cost of public transport. And I think as well it helped with social mobility and things like that. So, yes, we did look at them and we thought that they were a really good idea.

Brilliant. Thank you. Just another question, Cadeirydd, just around the importance of transport that's accessible—if I can say that right today—for everybody. One of the things that we've picked up in our committee has been around children and young people with disabilities. So, perhaps you could just talk about how important you think it is that that free public transport is also available for those young people who have disabilities and accessibility issues.

Perhaps Ffion to start.

Yes, well, as Kasia mentioned before, Tegan in the Senedd on Saturday was talking about how she is completely reliant on public transport because she's blind and is therefore unable to drive a car. But she was saying that she finds it so difficult to just do all the basic things using public transport, and their accessibility isn't great. And so I think, yes, it is important for people with disabilities, because that's their only way of travelling. I'm fortunate that I can drive and so, if I really needed to get somewhere but couldn't rely on public transport, I could drive. But, for people like Tegan, that's their only mode of travel, and so we've got to be able to give that to people who have disabilities so they can have that independence themselves and not rely on other people to take them places.

Thank you. Kasia.

Yes, 100 per cent. And I think we mentioned earlier about bus steps as well. I think it can be really difficult to actually get on to trains and buses because of the height of that step. So, I think it's really important that ramps are a feature of all public transport services and that all public transport is accessible to every young person.

Peredur Owen Griffiths has a supplementary.

I was concerned, in your presentation, about the level of discrimination as well, which is a barrier to people using public transport. How extensive was that in your research, and have you given any thought to what sort of things we could put in place to help alleviate some of that?

Kasia, I think it was one of your slides.

Yes. I'm not sure of the official statistic. I'm not sure whether, Bethan or Elin, you have the official statistic, but I think it's really important to reduce discrimination as a whole. If we reduce it as a whole, that's going to automatically reduce it on public transport services. And I think one of the main ways to do that is through education in school. Again, we have the new curriculum coming in very soon, so I think it needs to be an integral part of that.

Thank you for that. Can I just place on record as well the committee agreeing entirely with you that we should seek to reduce discrimination as a whole, in all its forms, and any of its forms, going forward? You mentioned some of the statistics; perhaps, Elin, you'd—

Yes. So, with the ethnic minority population that we spoke to, it represented approximately about 10 per cent of the population that we spoke with within the 1,300 young people that we interviewed, and then, apart from that, we also spoke with—. About 16 per cent of those were representative of the LGBTQ+ community. So, much of the evidence that we gathered was from a qualitative sense, from focus groups, in the sense of, you know, young people feeling scared, vulnerable, unsafe on those aspects of public transport, and then, similarly, you know—. So, the discrimination was across the board in terms of those in the LGBTQ+ community as well as those from ethnic minorities. So, that was obviously worrying, and we'd welcome that, I'm sure the young people in the committee would welcome it as well in terms of you calling it out. I think there's a recommendation there as well within the report calling for that to be recognised and to be pushed through schools as part of the education, and I'm sure that the committee would also welcome the compulsory teaching of black and ethnic minority history throughout the curriculum as well, and the policy, of course, that the Government is bringing in, with anti-racist Wales by 2030. So, they are aware of that as young people within the committee, but also, the evidence supports those types of calls as well. Diolch.

Diolch. We will, as a committee, go into private session later this afternoon to discuss this session, the petitions it's associated with and a few other things. Of course, I can't say what the committee will agree to, but I'm sure I can say that we do all want to see a Wales where discrimination is not tolerated at all, and we thank you for calling that out and we can join you in those calls.

Can I ask Members if there are any further questions? There are not. Okay. So, there are no further questions from Members. Perhaps, Ffion or Kasia, this is an opportunity for you to say a couple of final words if you would like to. You don't have to do, it's up to you. Are you all okay? I think—. Okay. On that note, that's good. Can I thank you for being here? I thank Bethan and Elin as well for supporting you today. You will get a written transcript to go to committee; we would like you to review that for factual accuracy and, of course, if there's anything that you haven't had the opportunity to say and you would wish to say later, please do let us know through both Elin and Bethan.

I should say, as well, Jayne Bryant, who sat through the session on Saturday with you in the Siambr here in the Senedd, said that all committees could learn from your work in this inquiry with regard to engagement. I should add further to that: in this committee, we've had evidence sessions from heads of public affairs teams, we've had evidence from Welsh Government Ministers, I'm often reminded of the evidence session we had with senior executives in the energy sector, and I should say that I think your evidence was with a laser-like focus on the topic in question and answered all the questions that Members had thoroughly. We're grateful for that and I think other members of the public who hold such offices and jobs in their respective lives should take note of this session on how to give evidence to a Senedd committee. So, can I congratulate you for the work that you have done on behalf of the Welsh Youth Parliament? As I said earlier, we'll go into private session later to discuss further what we will do in our work, but we will, of course, await with interest the Deputy Minister's response to your work. Diolch yn fawr.

Before I move on to the next item on our agenda, can I propose a short break before we do that, and perhaps we can be back in three minutes' time? Okay.

Croeso nôl, welcome back to the Senedd Petitions Committee. Item 5 on today's agenda is new petitions. Item 5.1, P-06-1361, 'Protect agency workers in the NHS'. I'll just double-check that we are in public session.

Okay, I'll start again just to make sure that we have been recorded. So, item 5 on today's agenda is new petitions. Item 5.1, P-06-1361, 'Protect agency workers in the NHS'.

'At present agency workers are not afforded the same safeguards and support from health boards as other NHS employees. As an agency healthcare support worker, I’ve had personal experience of being subject to untrue and unfounded allegations which went on for months, and I did not have any recourse or opportunity to challenge these. I would have had remedies or recourse in a court of law had I been directly employed by the NHS.'

There is additional information available to members of the committee. This was submitted by Petero Kagingi, with 422 signatures. I invite committee members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Buffy Williams.

Diolch. I'm not quite sure where the committee can go with this petition, because the Minister has made her response completely clear, that agency workers are the responsibility of the agency they work for. So, in that respect, I really don't think that our committee can proceed any further with this petition. So, I'd like to thank the petitioner for highlighting this and recommend that we close this petition.

Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I was just reading over this petition and I've got to admit I was quite surprised by the bluntness of the Minister's response, because obviously she has said, 'Oh, responsibility for agency staff is the responsibility of the agency', but also, as the Minister would know, the Welsh Government code of practice on ethical employment for the Welsh public sector notes that, after 12 weeks, agency staff are entitled to the same rights and protections as those who are contracted, under normal circumstances. So, I was thinking whether or not something could be done to maybe reinforce that, then, in terms of agency staff, to say that they still have the same rights as 'normal' staff, for want of a better word. So, clearly there's a breakdown there, then, that they don't, if we have a petition from an agency staff member saying that they have been discriminated against.

Chair, wouldn't that be in their contracts? And that would be part of what they sign up to when they sign up to work for the agency. That should be, you know, part of their contract.

Thank you, Buffy. Thank you. Joel.

The petition is not complaining against the agency; it's complaining against the NHS.

Okay. So, there's been a suggestion to close the petition, and a further suggestion to—

Yes. I think we should write back to the Minister to highlight this and say, 'What changes or what strengths can you give to the code of practice to better protect agency staff?'

So, there's been a suggestion from Joel to write back. I should just say the difficulty with this particular petition is we've had no further comments from the petitioner, and this, obviously, is related quite heavily to the experiences of the petitioner, but, given the point from Joel James, I think we can write one last time on that point. Peredur Owen Griffiths wants to come in.

Because it's talking about personal experience, I'm just wondering if we know anything from the petitioner's point of view. Have they taken it down other courses of recourse or not? What we potentially could do is close the petition down because of the Minister's response, but suggest that the petitioner might want to follow other processes—for example, the ombudsman or complaining directly to the health board. As the petitioner is in Newport, and in South Wales East, if they wanted to get in touch with me personally, I would be happy to do that on a personal level rather than through this committee, because I agree that this committee has probably gone as far as it can with the work that it's doing. But if the petitioner wanted to take that forward on a more personal level, then I'd be willing to do it that way.

Thank you. Diolch, Peredur. So, there have been a number of suggestions to try and find a way through from this. As I say, this is quite a personal issue, and we haven't had correspondence further with the petitioner about that, but I think we can as a committee raise the comments from Joel James in general terms to the Minister, but, in doing that, close the petition as well. And, of course, when we do make the petitioner aware of the action the committee is taking, we can indeed direct them to the ombudsman and also personally to their Members of the Senedd, both constituency and regional. Okay. Are Members content? Okay. I can see they are. Good.

Item 5.2, P-06-1371, 'Re-open the railway stop in Nant-y-Derry Goytre Fawr to include us in the South Wales Metro'.

'We have sufficient population to include this in the plan. We currently have to use the A4042 to connect with Cardiff and England with a limited bus service. Demand among residents is growing.'

This was submitted by David Thomas, with 310 signatures in total. I invite committee members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I'm conscious of the Deputy Minister's response here, to say that the rail line is the responsibility of the UK Government. I'm conscious that the Deputy Minister has also said that the UK Government, in his response, has consistently rejected requests to the Welsh Government for further rail devolution. I don't think that's the case. I think the Welsh Government have declined the—. I remember reading something that came out a couple of months ago that it was the Welsh Government that declined to take on more of the rail network, but I'm open for that to be questioned. One of the things that I think we could look to do—and, obviously, we're getting to a point where there's not much we can do—is I think, as a committee, we could highlight that to the relevant UK Minister and say, 'We've received this petition—is there anything you can do?' and link up directly with the constituent and copy in—. It's Monmouth, so I assume it's David Davies. And that's it, then, I suppose.

Okay. Thank you for that, Joel. So, the suggestion is to write to the UK Minister, highlighting the petition and the work of the committee. Do Members agree? Content? Okay. We'll seek to do that. Thank you. Yes, just to say, are we then closing the petition on the back of that? Yes. Okay. Members are content to close, having highlighted the petition to the UK Government.

Item 5.3, P-06-1372, 'Save our fflecsi bwcabws service'.

'fflecsi Bwcabus is a fully accessible local bus service, which operates within specific areas in Wales, providing a mixture of both fixed route services and bookable journeys. fflecsi Bwcabus is designed to help people make local journeys and connections to main line bus services. A bus picks you up at your request, changing its route so that all passengers can get to where they need to go.'

There is additional information for members of the committee. This was submitted by Michael Iwan Morgan, with a total of 3,025 signatures. I'm aware that, today as well, we've had more paper signatures handed in to the Senedd, which of course will be taken into account in due course. I will invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take now, and note as well that I know this has been raised a number of times in the Senedd Chamber—Adam Price in particular raising this in questions to First Minister and topical questions. But I'll invite Members to discuss the petition now. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

As you say, I know that Adam Price and Cefin Campbell have been raising this service, and the fact that it's coming to an end and that the need is clearly there. There are a few different aspects of this going ahead and the funding is one element. Also, I think, currently, they're looking locally to see how it could potentially be funded locally, as well as working with the Deputy Minister. I think there are certain elements that we can do within the Senedd, and I'm putting some pressure on the Welsh Government. How much of that is in the purview of this committee is slightly different.

I think one of the things relating to what we were talking about in our first session this afternoon, with the Youth Parliament, is the element of public transport, so I'd like to pick this particular petition up in those further discussions with the other petitions around public transport and see if we can bring that into the discourse that we're having around that. So, I think we should leave this petition open currently, roll the discussion into the wider discussion we're having around what we were talking about with the Youth Parliament Members, and, obviously, keep a watchful eye on what's happening in questions and things going on with the Deputy Minister as well. So, I think there's still some way to run with this particular petition.

Diolch, Peredur. I should say that Cefin Campbell, too, has raised this a number of times in the Chamber. I think that makes sense to have a further discussion in private session later around public transport and the bus industry in general, and we'll seek to do that.

Item 5.4, P-06-1374, 'Bring Wales in line with England by allowing landowners 60 days tent and campervan camping a year'.

'During Covid Wales extended landowners' rights to allow tent and campervan/motor home camping from 28 days pa to 56. In 2022 it reverted to 28 days but a consultation was held around making 56 days law. A recent announcement by the Senedd put any permanent change on hold. As of July 2023 England has 60 days of permitted camping, putting Welsh landowners at a disadvantage. I urge the Senedd to look at the Town and Country Planning Order 2023 amendments and consider bringing them into Welsh law.'

There's a number of links and additional information for members of the committee to see. This was submitted by Andrew Richard Walton, with 430 signatures in total. I invite Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. The Minister has replied in a letter, saying that she's received a number of concerns about extending the permitted development rights for temporary campsites or pop-up campsites, to go back to the COVID-period level. We've had a response from the petitioner. He's clearly not satisfied with the arguments put forward or with the response by the Minister. The petitioner provides a number of examples of what he thinks the benefits would be to the Welsh economy if the pop-up sites were allowed to be in place for up to 56 days, and that we need to consider the benefits it's created in England. There has been a consultation with regard to this. It closed in February 2022, but it hasn't been published. May I recommend that we write back to the Minister? We'll raise the issues that the petitioner has mentioned—the potential benefits for Wales, the benefits that have been seen already in England and the support it would actually give the sector—and ask when the consultation is likely to be published. Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Diolch for the suggestion, Rhys ab Owen. I can see Members are content—they are. Okay.

Item 5.5, P-06-1376, a petition submitted by David Oddy with 270 signatures in total. This relates to the petition on the Welsh Government's basic income pilot. The committee has already made its views clear on the pilot through the inquiry, report and the associated debate held in the Chamber. Those in agreement with the policy and those not in agreement with the policy as well have well been made clear on the record here in this committee and, again, as I say, on the floor of the Senedd Chamber. Therefore, I don't think there's any further action to take on this petition, and I suggest that it be closed. Are Members content? They are. Okay.

Item 6, updates to previous petition. Item 6.1: P-06-1184, 'Immediately ban the use of toxic lead in all ammunition in Wales...lead is killing our wildlife!', was submitted by Robert Curtis, with 4,052 signatures. I invite Members to discuss this petition and any action they may wish to take. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. Before I start, I just wanted to highlight that I am a member of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, for the record. With this petition, I'm open to suggestions from the committee, really. I'm conscious we've had this in front of us now for about two years, and each time we've delayed it subject to the outcome of the UK Government consultation. That's just closed, I think, if I remember rightly, but, obviously, we don't know the outcome of that consultation. So, logic would dictate that we would wait longer, but I'm also conscious it has gone on for some time. So, I would say we just delay it until we know the outcome, really.

Diolch, Joel. I think Members are content. We've waited a number of years now, and we await the outcome of the consultation. Hopefully, we'll have that sooner rather than later, and we'll bring this petition back once we do have the outcome of that consultation. Do Members agree? Yes, they do. Thank you.

Item 6.2, P-06-1209, 'Create a national list of all unpaid carers in Wales', submitted by Mike O'Brien, with a total of 77 signatures. I should say, for the record and for clarity, this was at a time where Standing Order requirements meant you only needed a total of 50 signatures for a petition to be considered by the Senedd's Petitions Committee. Of course, due to the increase in awareness of the committee around the country and our workload from consultation, this is now at 250 signatures. I will invite Members to discuss this petition. I think this is the fourth time we've discussed this petition now. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I know this is the fourth time we've discussed this petition and I would like to say I'm disappointed that the Ministers have decided not to create a register for unpaid carers.

I'd like to write back to the Deputy Minister to seek clarification about the statement on verifying the status of unpaid carers. I think that's really important and I think it's really important we have clarity on this. I don't want—. I know the next time will be the fifth time we've considered this petition—I just think it's too important to close without this clarification. I'd like to leave this petition open if the committee agrees, please.

Thank you, Buffy. I can see nodding from committee members, both online and here. Can I suggest that we do write back with your suggestion and keep it open for one final consideration by the committee? Okay.

Item 6.3, P-06-1337, 'Sycharth, the home of Owain Glyndŵr, should be bought to safeguard the site for future generations', submitted by Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn, with a total of 10,534 signatures. On 13 September, ahead of Owain Glyndŵr Day, the committee led a Senedd debate in the Chamber. Following the response from the Deputy Minister at the time and a discussion in this committee session on 9 October, the committee agreed to write to Powys County Council requesting signage leading up to the site to be more prominent, and also at the arrival of the site—to be more prominent—for members of the public who would wish to visit.

I should say we've received a response from Powys County Council. I should say as Chair, and someone who visited the site as part of the committee, who struggled to find it because of the lack of signage, I'm somewhat disappointed in the response from the local authority. But that being said, I think that probably this petition has reached its journey with this particular petition. I do hope that those who do seek the birthplace of Owain Glyndŵr, Sycharth castle, will not be discouraged by the challenges that I and Joel James—but more me—found when choosing to visit it. We will close this petition and say 'thanks' to Elfed for leading his campaign, as he does on many petitions here. And in closing, I perhaps ask the council to reconsider one further time here.

[Inaudible.]—write back to the council, closing the petition, but also our disappointment at the response because I think it's very poor and it's one of the significant areas in Powys that needs highlighting and it's—. Yes, it's not satisfactory at all.

Thank you, both Joel and Peredur. I think members of this committee do share the frustration. I'd be surprised if Members across the Chamber who took part in the debate would not be as equally frustrated as we are with that response. So, we will close the petition but in doing so, air our frustrations at the response from Powys County Council.

Okay, that does bring us to the end of public business for today. Can I once again thank the Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament for their session? Thank you, Jayne Bryant, Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee for joining us too. We will go into private session to discuss the evidence session that we had, and indeed our work, perhaps, related to the bus industry and public transport in general, where this committee may seek to take our future work in the new year.

Therefore, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? I can see they are. We will be back for our final meeting of the year on 11 December. I will see you then. Diolch.