Equality and Social Justice Committee

Can I now move that, under Standing Order 17.42, we exclude the public for items 4 and 7 of today's meeting? So, we will be resuming the public session at 13:30, when we are going to be interviewing the Minister for education on this important subject of gender-based violence.

We are now continuing with the public health approach to preventing gender-based violence, and, in evidence session 9, I'm very happy to welcome Jeremy Miles, the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Sian Jones, head of supporting achievement and safeguarding, and Lloyd Hopkin. I'm afraid I don't have your title, but perhaps you can tell us when—

Head of curriculum reform.

Excellent. Thank you very much indeed.

So, Minister, I just wanted to start off by saying that, obviously, schools face a very challenging time; they have plenty on their plates, including collapsing ceilings and things like that. To what extent are education settings able to prioritise prevention as a response to gender-based violence amongst all the other things they're having to do?

Thank you for the invitation to join you, Chair, today. I think the critical thing with all of the work we're trying to do in schools is to align as much of it as possible, and if you have a common vision for what you're trying to achieve, that, I think, is supported and facilitated. So, the approach that we expect and hope schools to be taking is one where prevention is integrated, really, where practicable, into all aspects of the curriculum and the way in which schools are expected to operate more broadly. And you can see themes that illustrate that.

So, the whole-school approach to mental health and well-being has a part to play in demonstrating healthy, trusted relationships in a school setting, but perhaps most important is the role of the Curriculum for Wales and in particular within that, obviously, the area of learning and experience that is to do with health and well-being. And, of course, probably at the top of the list of priorities in this space in terms of the preventative work, certainly, is the relationships and sexuality education code, which is very specific. It's obviously mandatory and it's obviously taught in a way that is age appropriate, but it is clear that recognising harmful, abusive or coercive behaviour in personal relationships is one of its objectives from age 11 onwards, and, more broadly than that, understanding and having an awareness of different kinds of harmful or abusive behaviour, including violence on the basis of sex and gender. So, it's very much in this space, and the guidance that we've provided is obviously crucial to the implementation of the code and itself talks about learners being supported to recognise all forms of discrimination and domestic abuse and sexual violence, and, crucially, sitting alongside the preventative focus, how, also, to seek help and advice as well—so, that sense of individual and collective responsibility, modelling healthy relationships and then specifically engaging on questions to do with sex and gender-based violence as well.

Obviously, it's very welcome that well-being is front and centre of the new curriculum and seeing children as individuals rather than as a group, but it's quite a challenging journey as well in terms of how individual teachers are going to deliver the relationships and sexuality education to the pupils they're responsible for. So, could you underline what monitoring mechanisms you have or plan to put in place to assess adherence to the legal duties that obviously exist around safeguarding, which go with this RSE agenda?

Yes. That's a broader set of questions, really, isn't it, around safeguarding more broadly. In terms of the compliance by a school with its legal obligations, obviously, the role of the governing body is central to that and our role is to issue statutory guidance or guidance to schools and governing bodies then have regard to that and must have regard to that in how they perform their functions. But I suppose the first level of monitoring to ensure those responsibilities—and there's quite a range of legal duties that arise, obviously, in the context of safeguarding—is the responsibility of the local authority. From our point of view, the guidance that we provide, 'Keeping learners safe', which provides very specific support to schools about how they can discharge their legal obligations, also includes, for example, an audit tool that enables schools to understand their obligations and to map that on to the operations of the school. Obviously, anybody working in an education setting employed by a local authority, for example, has a duty to report incidents when they arise.

I suppose the final piece of that picture, the monitoring point that you made importantly at the end—well, it's a fundamentally important part of Estyn's role in inspection to ensure that schools have appropriate safeguarding measures in place from a compliance perspective, but perhaps more ambitiously, that that is part of the culture of the school as well. So, it's not simply a question of complying with the legislation. Estyn will look more broadly than that around the creation of a safe environment and a safeguarding environment, and monitoring that is important from their point of view as well.

Given that it is a new agenda to endeavour to use the relationships and sexuality education to prevent gender-based violence in the future, what Welsh Government programmes are there to drive this really quite challenging change?

Well, there are a range of programmes that support schools in this, and many of them will originate in funding that we provide as a Government, but which we haven't ourselves directly commissioned, as you will appreciate—so, regional consortia, local authorities and others will also be creating programmes that will have originated in our funding, if you like. But, from our own point of view, I suppose to highlight two very specific ones that we directly fund and support, the first is the Wales police community schools programme, which has as part of its core programme learning around online safety, sexting, but then also sexual exploitation and domestic violence—so, it has a broad and important range of core elements. The Minister responsible for that programme is, in fact, the Deputy Minister for mental health, but we obviously work very closely together in this area and in a number of others. And, actually, that programme has been running for many years very successfully, and it has a preventative component as well as developing that trusted relationship with the police, and, obviously, that can be important in some of the context that the committee is exploring here. That programme has just been reviewed for effectiveness, and the results of the review, I think, have just been presented to Lynne Neagle, so she will be considering that. So, that's one.

Another, and I'm sure Members will maybe even have seen this in action—I saw it in a school in the Bridgend constituency, actually—is that we fund Hafan Cymru's Spectrum project, which is a very effective project when you see it in action. It provides support to staff and governors, but I saw it in action in supporting young people in a primary school to understand the implications of domestic abuse in that context. But it's a very effective programme, and we're looking for ways to enable that to be extended as well.

Thank you. Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much, and thank you, Minister, for being here today. I can concur; it was very good to see that programme and I do think there'd be value in rolling it out.

I'm going to ask some further questions about the Welsh curriculum. So, as we know, education settings can help to promote healthy relationships, to challenge stereotypes and foster gender equality, particularly relationships and sexuality education, which will aim to prevent the messages to ensure schools are challenging societal gender norms that drive gender-based violence—so, a huge area that they're being expected to work with, really. Could you talk us through any work that you'll be doing to commission impact assessments and evaluations of the health and well-being area of learning and experience or relationships and sexuality education? You mentioned monitoring, so how can we find out how this is working, where this is working?

Okay. So, I think the point you made, if I may say, is really important, to recognise that what we're looking at here is a broader societal problem, and schools are reflecting what's happening around them. I think it is important to see it from that point of view, because it tells you about how best to try and respond. But the point you make about understanding the impact of the curriculum is obviously fundamental. So, there are a number of things under way in this space already. Our curriculum impact assessment has—from the start, actually—recognised that how we deliver RSE is fundamentally important. It’s fundamentally important to the discussion we’re having today, but also much more broadly as well. So, that will continue to be an ongoing area of focus for the evaluation work that we are doing.

The annual report that we published identified the need to develop the continuing professional support for teachers in order to be able to deliver this successfully, just in the way that the Chair was mentioning earlier. So, over the next academic year, we’ve got a programme of work working with our practitioners and other partners that develop the resource base in this area.

In terms of the initial research that we’ve done into efficacy of aspects of the curriculum, I published the first of those in April. I’m publishing the second of them next week, and the first one identified the importance of RSE and how we can make sure that’s well implemented. Actually, our research showed us that despite, perhaps, some of the messages that we’ve heard more broadly in the media, the experience of most schools has been one in which it’s been effectively delivered and supportively delivered, and I think it’s very important that we bear that in mind. But we also identified—consistent with what we’d picked up and reported in the annual report—a call from some heads, perhaps, to say they wanted a little bit more support for introducing this part of the curriculum successfully. So, we’ve definitely heard that.

The other aspect to this, more broadly on the health and well-being area, is that you will have seen a few weeks ago that we published our plans for curriculum evaluation in the longer term, and some of that is about to start later this term. There'll be a review process that we'll initiate, and part of that is, if you like, a series of deep-dives into aspects of the curriculum—this is a longer term piece of work, really—and the health and well-being area will be one of those areas that we’re doing a deep-dive into. Obviously, the objective is for us to learn how it’s being implemented and do teachers feel they need more support—so, just that really practical stuff around how we deliver this well.

Okay. Thank you. And you mentioned Estyn earlier on, and, in 2017, Estyn published a review of healthy relationships education. How well, in your opinion, have schools progressed with the issues raised in that report? Are you willing to include follow-up work on this in Estyn's next remit letter, recognising that RSE is now taught in primary schools under the new curriculum?

Well, it was a good report. We accepted all the recommendations and we continue to discuss it with Estyn, and we will consider whether we need to do further work through Estyn on this. What I would say, though, as we would all recognise, I think, is that the context has changed quite a lot since 2017. So, obviously, now we have mandatory healthy relationships learning in schools as part of the new curriculum, and, alongside that, I've just touched a little bit on some of the evaluation and monitoring that we are doing. So, there are other statutory bases and other sources of monitoring and evaluation happening in the system, which weren't in place in 2017, so I just think the context is probably worth bearing in mind as well.

Okay, thank you very much. And my last question: we do have members of our advisory group in the gallery this afternoon, and one of the things that they raised, actually, is just that—. And I thought I'd heard it all, I'll be honest with you, but some of the examples that we heard of some of the relationships and some of the conduct that's happening in schools, that's happening among students, did shock me, and NSPCC Wales has said that the RSE curriculum must be frequently reviewed to ensure it remains aligned with emerging trends and the changing experiences and needs of young people. So, I just wanted to ask, really: how do you intend to ensure this? Because, as we know, things move on; things change. There are so many different influences out there outside of the home, outside of the education settings. We've had particular personalities who have been mentioned—I'm not going to mention their name in here, but—who kind of pop-up in these trends and put out there some really, really damaging, dangerous messages. So, how can we ensure that it's always kept up-to-date with those emerging trends? Also, how can we ensure that young people are involved in that, so that they know that there is a safe space to really talk about what's really happening?

Yes. Well, the learner voice and learner experience is an important part of our evaluation of how the curriculum generally works, and definitely in this area it's particularly important, for the reason that you gave. You mentioned the NSPCC. Just to acknowledge, the work that they did with us in developing the RSE element of the curriculum and their continued advocacy for it, I think, is wonderful.

It is.

So, I thank them for that. I think the point you make is really important, and I also won't mention the individual, for the same reason that you won't, but I have spoken to a number of heads, and it's been an eye-opener, if I can be completely honest with you, hearing how they described the influence of social media influences, as it were, very vividly on aspects of school life, which can be quite shocking when you hear some of the consequences of it. So, I do think, then, that it's important that we do keep this area live, really. That's the point, isn't it? It's a live part of our curriculum, it's reflecting society and it needs to continue to do that.

We've got an annual cycle of small-ish, contained amendments, if you like, to the curriculum. So, there's an opportunity to pick up on changes and emerging trends and changed context as part of that. But, there's also a longer term cycle of review, some of which I've just touched upon now. So, between the two, there are plenty of opportunities for us to keep an eye on not just how it's being implemented as it is today but, as you rightly say, how we might need to adapt it in future.

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you, Chair.

Can I just follow up and ask how easy or difficult, or how challenging it is to involve parents in developing more respectful relationships, in the sense that we can be talking to children about what respectful relationships look like, but we also need to work with the other people who are fundamental to a child's life, particularly in primary school, otherwise that poor child is just getting conflicting arguments, and some of them are very, very confusing for a child?

Well, our guidance in relation to how to deliver this as part of the RSE element of the curriculum, I suppose, which is the most tangible and concrete manifestation of it that I've suggested today, is very clear that we expect schools to work with parents in order to deliver this successfully. And we've spoken with a number of schools about how best to go about that, and there is some really, really good practice that schools are, I think, sharing quite effectively through their regional consortia, and increasingly effectively. It's a very practical thing at the end of the day, isn't it, really.

I, myself, have visited a cluster in Cardiff to talk to the staff there who had had some challenging experiences about how they have started to overcome that by having open conversations with parents. And sometimes, for different reasons, those can be quite challenging, can't they? But that, I think, experience is suggesting to us pretty clearly that where schools have been able to have those open discussions with parents, that's where that part of the curriculum has been most successfully embedded and is being rolled out most successfully.

But there are challenging conversations and, obviously, as part of the broader picture, with attendance levels not being anywhere near where we want them to be, there is a range of ways in which schools and parents need to engage differently with each other, perhaps, and some of that can be equally challenging. So, I think that broader context is important, but, on this particular point, we know that where that communication is open is where it's working best, basically.

Thank you. I'd like to call Ken Skates now to ask some questions.

Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Minister. I'm going to ask some questions, if I may, about the whole-school approach. The committee has heard that there is strong evidence to support a whole-school approach in preventing gender-based violence. What influence do you think needs to be exerted to ensure that school leaders and governors prioritise and also take ownership of this issue within their school setting? For example, are there minimum standards and a monitoring framework in place?

Well, I think the context around this has become more publicly discussed and, in that sense, perhaps better understood by society generally. So, I'm sure you would have been as shocked as I was to read some of the evidence in the Everyone's Invited survey, for example. And that has been a catalyst for a discussion, which this committee's work forms part of, and it's very important that that happens. I'm clear, though, that I think that school leaders do take this seriously, and I think the work Estyn has done to review, for example, peer-on-peer sexual harassment, has some very tangible things that we need to help schools to deliver. And there are questions there around confidence to deal with some of these complex issues, but I don't think there's a lack of priority attached to it.

On the two particular points that you asked about, I do agree with you that the way to succeed here is effectively linking all aspects of a school's thinking and operations and curriculum, so that you've got that common set of principles, which I talked about at the start. The guidance that we've provided, which is the VAWDASV guidance for governors, recommends that schools appoint a governor specifically to support the head and senior staff in relation to their policy on VAWDASV. We recommend that being the child protection link governor, most often, for obvious reasons. So, there's an expectation that that is already in place. And as I just touched on in passing at the start, from a monitoring point of view and a minimum expectations point of view, the work that Estyn does in its inspection regime covers this area as well. So, there's an expectation that schools are delivering on this, and most take this very, very seriously.

Thank you. Are you willing to reconsider a national programme of professional learning to better equip teachers with the skills necessary to deal with this matter?

The annual report I mentioned earlier did in fact talk about the importance, which we would all recognise, of continuing professional support for teachers in aspects, certainly, of RSE in the curriculum. In the next academic year, we'll be doing a programme of work with practitioners, as I mentioned earlier. That will include reviewing options for a national approach. Any of you that have come across DARPL, which is the diversity and anti-racist professional training programme—. It's very successful and very popular. The question we're asking ourselves is, 'Is there a case for a DARPL in RSE?' if you like. That's what we're working through at the moment, and over the course of the next year, working with practitioners, we'll explore that option, certainly.

That's good to hear. Thanks. Just finally, and it follows on from the supplementary question asked by the Chair regarding the role of parents in this area of concern, what do you think the key challenges are for schools in forging alliances with parents and the wider community?

I do some of this work jointly with Jane Hutt, Minister for Social Justice, who I think you took evidence from just this morning—

It's next week.

Oh, next week. Forgive me. We work closely in this area. I touched in my response to the Chair on some of the broader challenges that schools face in terms of engagement at the moment. Our community-focused schools policy is intended to get to the heart of this, really, which is about breaking down barriers between the community and the school, but I think, also, crucially, engaging parents and sometimes re-engaging parents with the school, and recreating for parents the image of what a school is. Some parents may not have had a great experience themselves of school, so that will colour very much, obviously, their dealings with the school on behalf of their child. I've seen some very effective working, and many of us will have in our constituencies, I'm sure, which has really been about just making schools more porous, to bring parents in in different ways, so that it's not solely a place of education but also a broader set of experiences. That has been very effective. We all know that family engagement work, and family engagement officers, is a really effective way of reaching families who are maybe struggling or finding it challenging to send their young people to school, so we've increased the funding in that area quite significantly, as you will know. It's over £6.5 million now, and I think that's very important work. It's not work that all schools have, but the schools that need the support are able to get it through that fund.

Great, thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you very much. If I can now call on Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair. Gender-based violence, of course, takes many different forms, and there are many aspects to that. You mentioned in your previous answer that you had responded to the report by the Children, Young People and Education Committee last year on peer-to-peer sexual harassment, and you said that there would be a multi-agency plan. Has that been published, and, if not, when you do expect to publish it?

It hasn't been published, but it's about to be published, and the intention is to publish it before Christmas in this term. So, there will be an opportunity for the committee to scrutinise it then.

Thank you. Was there any specific reason why it hasn't been published yet?

Well, as you say, it's complex work to ensure that all the elements and aspects are dealt with jointly. So, the whole purpose is to ensure that agencies bring their experiences and their perspectives together, and that work, for it to be delivered correctly, takes time, but the intention is for this autumn.

Estyn, in their written evidence to us, did raise a specific concern that not all teachers are aware of the mandatory reporting duty placed on them regarding FGM. What conversations have you had with Estyn about this specific issue, and what action have you taken in response to their concerns?

The numbers reported cause great concern, don't they, seeing those figures. It is something, as you say, that Estyn has raised. There are legal duties, as you say—and they are very important ones—on teachers to take action where they suspect that a child is at risk of FGM. My predecessor wrote to every school when she was a Minister to draw this to their attention, but I'd be happy for my officials to speak to Estyn to discuss what further we can do in this area.

Thank you. Then, what we've been discussing in general—how prevalent, unfortunately, gender-based violence is in society—means that all parents, all pupils, and all members of staff, perhaps, will have encountered gender-based violence. So, what assurances can you give to the committee that schools and local authority education departments have appropriate policies in place to deal with these issues, and maybe not just the specific policies that can exist in some kind of silo, but that which runs across their policies? We heard from our advisory group this morning about the difficulty that arises in terms of access policies, and the lack of understanding that people do have to move their children for safety reasons, and that that doesn't align with the school catchment policy, and they then have to go to appeal boards, where there are people who perhaps don't have an understanding of these issues. And we've unfortunately heard evidence that there is not much sympathy with their situation. So, is it possible to tackle this issue across policies, not just through a specific policy?

I'd be interested to hear the committee's findings in light of the evidence that you've heard with regard to that, because it's important that we, too, hear the evidence. The guidance that we provide to governing bodies, and to local authorities, as I mentioned briefly earlier, means more than just going ahead with a policy; it's part of a wider culture, as you mentioned, so that, for example, every part of the school understands that. And that is the purpose of the audit tool, so that a school can go through this process of understanding the implications of this sort of culture, and how they act upon that. But, if you have heard evidence that there's more that we can do, I'd be interested to hear about that as well.

Excellent, thank you.

Very good. Altaf Hussain, did you want to ask any further questions on this area?

Hi, Jeremy. It is about social media. Has the Welsh Government made any assessment of the impact social media has on the prevalence of GBV amongst school pupils, and, if so, has there been any uptake in gender-based violence since Twitter—or, as you call it now, X—decided to allow unrestricted access to display it on their platform, in the name of free speech?

I don't have the answer to that last question, though it would be interesting and important to know that for us all, I think, wouldn't it, because I think part of the issue here is the changing, the fast-changing nature of some of the social media that we are all aware of.

Online safety is a critical part of the RSE code and understanding the risks and how to stay safe, and also the responsibilities, actually, of how to behave online in the context of relationships is a fundamental part of that. We identified, a number of years ago, the growing prevalence of online misogyny in particular—we've touched on that obliquely a little today already—and worked together with the Football Association of Wales, for example, to create some online resources. And I went to see some of these being used in a school in the Rhondda, actually, which were around modelling positive behaviour to boys, but also modelling to girls who might be victims how best to respond and to keep themselves safe and how to report. And those resources have been—. There was a campaign that has run over two or three years now, which I think has proved very popular, and I think one of the challenges for us as a Government—all Governments, really—is how do you keep finding ways of refreshing that message perhaps using other voices who, I dare say, maybe even more trusted than the Government and who, certainly, are probably more relatable, in all seriousness. So, I was really pleased with the work that we did there. It involved male and female footballers, so there was a range of messages. So, if the committee hasn't had a chance to see some of that, I'm sure we could share links with the committee; I think it's definitely worth a look. And there's a lot of other work that we've done that is on Hwb that supports learners directly to keep themselves safe online, and describes their responsibilities to them as well.

Thank you, Chair.

Isn't it a bit of a losing battle, though, given the recent Panorama programme on the penetration that somebody, a woman hater like Andrew Tate, has on so many young people online?

Chair, if you would find it useful, I could share with you the names of some schools that I think have been responding quite directly to this in some of the work that they've done. I probably shouldn't name them in the committee; I don't want them to—. But I'd be very happy to share that with you, subject to them being happy to talk to you about it. There might be something useful there for you to hear about.

Because it's such a challenging issue, so that'll be very useful information. Thank you. Sioned Williams, back to you.

Thank you, yes. I just wanted to talk about higher education. There has been a focus on universities and the need to tackle gender-based violence in higher education, following a series of high-profile publications from 2016. How confident are you that universities are taking sufficient action to tackle gender-based violence? Are there processes in place to ensure that all cases of violence, abuse and harassment are recorded and monitored in Welsh universities?

As you understand, we operate through the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales in our relationship with universities in this regard, and these arrangements are an integral part of our remit arrangements that we have between the Government and HEFCW. So, as a result of that, they work with universities to raise awareness of violence against women and domestic violence, but also to provide guidance to universities on how to address this and how to support the institutions. And they also have ongoing arrangements that require institutions and organisations to report on this, and any failings in following the processes, to HEFCW, and this includes VAWDASV. Universities Wales also has been working with VAWDASV organisations specifically and have published a joint statement in the recent period—I can't remember the exact date—on not using non-disclosure agreements in the context of violence such as this. So, HEFCW have specific guidance, and there's a practical campaign by Universities Wales as well.

Thank you. HEFCW has told us that six out of eight universities in Wales have set aside funding for specific bystander interventions in 2022-23, and they'll continue to do so in the next year, although there are questions about whether funding will be available beyond that. Are you aware that two universities in Wales have not committed to this, and, if so, are you satisfied that they are providing other interventions to ensure that young women who attend these universities are safe?

Yes, I am aware that two universities have decided on a different way of delivering this. That's what's happened, in reality, and they have tested the schemes they had with HEFCW, and HEFCW have assessed those as sufficient, although not exactly what you were talking about. They have arrangements that are suitable. In one example, they decided to change the way they were delivering it because the take-up hadn't been great in terms of the online delivery of it. So, they've been seeking alternative means of delivering it, and have been recruiting a sexual violence officer to do that work specifically. And in the other example, they've been taking a whole-university approach, including working with specific organisations, sports organisations within the university, and direct training. So, they have also delivered this in a different way, but HEFCW have evaluated the two schemes and have said that they are consistent with the expectations, if you like.

Fine. We heard from Dr Rachel Fenton from the University of Exeter who had developed the intervention initiative toolkit for universities, and she said that it was an effective evidence-based intervention. But HEFCW says that none of the universities in Wales are implementing this particular initiative, stating that it doesn't appear to be referenced either on the Public Health Wales website. Are you aware of this? Has something just been overlooked here?

The honest answer is 'I don't know'. Myself, I wouldn't be keen to enforce what sort of training package should be used. I'm not au fait with the package that you're talking about, so I won't comment on that. I will look into the package to see if there's a lack of awareness, but at the end of the day the important thing is that the output is active and effective. So, perhaps there's more than one way of reaching that aim. But I am happy to look at the scheme you were discussing specifically.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I want to ask one question in terms of safeguarding in schools or education generally. How confident are you as a Minister in the processes and systems in terms of safeguarding in schools and in education more generally? We've asked the same question to the health Ministers as well.

Well, there is a mixture of two things: giving clear guidance—there are legal requirements in place—but also, more than that, putting the tools in place for schools to be able to implement their legal duties is the practical thing. So, the statutory guidance that we provide, that's the intention of putting that in place, and then there's the important work that Estyn is doing in evaluating whether the culture of the school is one that prioritises safeguarding, as well as adheres to the regulatory requirements. I think that provides us with assurances that any issues can be highlighted when they arise from time to time, and it's really important that we acknowledge when that happens, so that we can respond to them.

So, are you confident or not, or half and half? Where are you as a Minister?

I think the systems we have provide us with the confidence that schools understand their obligations, and that the support is there for them to achieve their aims.

Thank you. One of the things we heard this morning was that teachers and people who work in schools are having time to deal with the emotional impacts, for example, when they hear about instances of violence against women. What's your opinion on that? Where are you on that? Is that happening in schools, in your experience?

We have increased the provision that’s available to improve the well-being of the education workforce, and teachers specifically, so that advice is available—general advice online, but also individual provision to have advice over the phone if an individual is worried about something as a result of violence, or something else, but it includes violence, certainly. And that provision had expanded our reach to more schools. It also includes a specific package of support to schools that enables the head to work with agencies to draw together a programme that is for the school specifically, and to improve the well-being of teachers. So, we are looking at ways of supporting the profession to deal with difficult situations. The whole-school approach to mental health and well-being, of course, there is an element there to train teachers on how to respond and deal with what they’re hearing, because, as you say, that can be one of the greatest challenges.

Thank you very much. We’ve heard a description of the situation with violence against women and girls as a pandemic, and one of the things that we want to look at as a committee is how people collaborate and co-operate across the Government. Could I ask you how you collaborate with the Minister for health and the Minister responsible for this area? How do you collaborate with them?

Well, the two main relationships I would have in this area are with Jane Hutt, as I mentioned earlier, and the second, which is directly on this and the work that we were just discussing, the whole-school approach to mental health and well-being, and also the work of the programme I was talking about earlier, where police go into schools to talk about violence against women, is the relationship with Lynne Neagle, and we collaborate closely. We jointly chair the group that is looking at these issues across schools and across the education system in general, and our budgets come together to fund that. So, the collaboration, I would say, is very close between us.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Chair.

Okay. I think one last question I have around the challenges for schools is that we've had members of a gender-based violence advisory group who say it's extremely difficult to get counselling or get mental health services for children who've witnessed domestic violence or have experienced it themselves, but there's a real dilemma for schools in giving access. Enabling children to access counselling is obviously one really excellent way of helping with the problem, but once you start referring children to mental health services then there are consequences in terms of the record, that an individual child is being labelled with a particular thing, which can be very difficult and have future consequences for their professional careers, et cetera. I just wondered how well we're ensuring that children are getting the service they need to address trauma in their lives.

I think putting it in the context of trauma is very important, and Lynne Neagle, who leads on the mental health aspects, of course, as you know, has encouraged a number of Ministers—and I've done this myself—to undertake attachment training and trauma-informed practice training to understand the implications from a policy point of view of some of the complexities that the committee's work is going to illustrate, I think. From a school's point of view, clearly the most important thing is that the young person gets the support that's appropriate for their circumstances and meets their needs, needless to say, and for some that will be counselling, but for many others it won't be that. In particular, if you look at younger children perhaps, maybe that isn't appropriate and there are other things in the nurture space that can provide supportive contexts for that child's needs to be met. So, I think it's about identifying—. The whole-school approach to mental health and well-being has a range of interventions. It isn't just about counselling. I mean, we've massively expanded counselling availability, but you will know, as I'm sure others will, that there's a lot of demand for that as well. But the framework for that will show that there's a range of interventions that we are supporting, and I think the point that you make is really important, that the support that the young person might need—you know, we ought not to be medicalising that relationship unless that is the appropriate thing for that particular young person. So, one has to be very, very mindful of that, I think, for the reasons that you give. But I do think the framework approach that we have, and the other interventions that support the strategy, are a much more varied range of initiatives.

Very good. I think Ken Skates wanted to come in on that.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, on that very point, I'm sure you won't be aware of the programme, but there's a fascinating programme that's operating in Flintshire, focused at Ysgol Bryn Coch, called Y Berllan, and basically it offers support to any young person at that primary school or cluster schools, with access to fully trained counsellors. We've heard on a number of occasions that counselling isn't always appropriate for young people, but the very presence of trained counsellors, professionals, on site has proven to be hugely valuable in terms of outcomes. I'd be incredibly grateful if officials within the education department flagged this up to the Deputy Minister for mental health, but whether officials in the education department could take a look at that programme and provide some observations to the committee on it—. Thank you.

I'm happy to follow up on that. Thank you for that.

Very good. And just a final question from me, which is, really, what role your officials play on the national VAWDASV programme board, and the six different work streams that they have got going on this, what is a pandemic, really, of gender-based violence, obviously further aggravated by the cost of living and poverty that goes with it.

So, there's a range of ways in which the structure brings officials together. So, at the director general level, the director general for my division is also the director general for the social justice division, so it's one person that does both—it's a conjoined function in that sense, and she sits on the national partnership board. Then there's a senior education official who sits on the children and young people work stream, which obviously focuses on education, and, in addition to that, the work that is about to be undertaken, which is a review of the national indicators, the preliminary mapping aspect of that is about how we can make sure that we are properly able to evaluate it, that we know what 'good' looks like, if you know what I mean. And part of that work—. Well, education officials are feeding into how we describe the outputs that we want, and, when we get to the next stage, they'll be involved in that as well. So there's close working. Education's a critical component for delivering our broader VAWDASV objectives as a Government, so that close working is very evident between officials, I think.

Very good. Is that a legacy hand, Ken, or—? Very good. If there are no further questions, I'd thank the Minister and his officials for coming in this afternoon. We'll obviously send you a transcript that you can correct to make sure that it accurately reflects your views and what is going on in your department.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr.

There are now very large numbers of papers to note as a result of the recess. So, 24 items of correspondence to note. Are Members content to note them so that we can pick them up in our work? You wanted to pick up on one issue.

There are a few that I would like to comment on, but maybe I can do that later.

Well, you're welcome to do some of them in public if you wish to, and then, obviously, we can pick anything up.

I'm very happy to do that. Firstly, it's in regard to 6.3, which is the response from the Minister for Social Justice with regard to speech and language therapy, and the disappointing response that she feels she cannot write she cannot write to youth justice boards because it's non-devolved. And I wondered if the committee would consider requesting knowing the reasons why it wasn't possible, apart from it being a reserved matter, because, obviously, youth justice boards are jointly funded—they are not just solely funded by the UK Government, they're funded by Welsh Government funds. So, this is with regards to the good practice we saw at Neath Port Talbot, and it feels like we're missing an opportunity if we don't do that. Thank you.

Okay. It would certainly be possible to follow up that letter and challenge that.

Thank you, Chair. I'm afraid there are two others, if I may, as well, please. Item 6.20, which is the response from the Minister for Climate Change with regards to the new Warm Homes programme and the timetable. I was a little bit confused—I don't know if it was just me—reading that, but both the contract award and the mobilisation are timetabled for the end of November. And given that we've seen a lot of slippage in this, I was just a little bit concerned that maybe there'd been a mix-up there, but it really feels like we should just stay on top of that, if that's okay, Chair.

Yes.

Thank you. And my final one, sorry, is with regards to 6.9, which is the police's response to this particular issue. I just wonder if we could move part of the responses to a discussion that maybe we'll be having in the next part, around perpetrator programmes.

Very good. Yes. That's certainly something we can pick up with the Minister for Social Justice in our interviews next week.

Thank you, Chair.

If there are no further comments, if we can note all those papers and move back into private session.