Equality and Social Justice Committee

There are two papers to note. One is correspondence between me and the Minister for Social Justice on the European Union settlement scheme, and the other is from Auditory Verbal UK on improving hearing outcomes for deaf babies. Are we content to note them?

So, the main item on today's agenda is scrutiny of the draft budget for social justice. I'm very pleased to welcome Jane Hutt, the Minister for Social Justice; Hannah Blythyn, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership; and your officials, Amelia John, director for communities and tackling poverty; Liz Lalley, director of risk, resilience and community safety; and Claire Germain, deputy director for tackling poverty and supporting families. Thank you very much indeed, all of you, for coming today.

I'm going to start off, Minister. In the budget report that was published at the end of December, there are lots of discussions about radically reshaping the Government's spending plans, and I wondered if you could tell me how the priorities of the Government may have changed, because, obviously, the social justice and equality budget has had severe reductions in order to protect other budgets.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much, Chair. I think, as you will have seen in my written evidence, we've had to make very difficult decisions to refocus our spending plans, as we've laid out, on the public services that matter most to people, and, of course, that has been across Government, a whole Welsh Government response, and we are in extraordinarily difficult financial circumstances. I mean, those are guiding principles, crucially, as I've mentioned, of protecting the NHS, local government, core front-line services as far as possible, but the objective that all Ministers had to sign up to in terms of budget setting was particularly to deliver the greatest benefit to households that are hardest hit. For me, in my role as Minister for Social Justice, and the Deputy Minister, in a sense, we play a lead role in this in ensuring that we are, in terms of budget setting—and the strategic integrated impact assessment, of course, guides us with that—benefiting those households that are hardest hit. I won't go over the overall budget re-allocations, the front-line NHS, local government, but, of course, we've got to recognise that that focus on those core areas of spending is really important in terms of social justice and tackling health inequalities, tackling education inequalities, and all the well-being of future generations priorities—funding schools, social services, social care, et cetera. But, for us, I think it is very important that we are protecting, as you know, our discretionary assistance fund, our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence services, our single advice fund, emergency food aid.

I think, again, as I outlined in my written statement, we are a very small budget in terms of the bigger picture. We had to make revenue savings of £14.081 million from a resource budget of £139.2 million. So, it was absolutely focusing on those areas. But, having protected those areas, I think it's also very important that, you know, we did ensure, again, in the strategic integrated impact assessment that other Ministers were looking at their budgets through this lens anyway, because of the impact of the cost-of-living crisis and the cross-Government commitment to social justice fairness and tackling inequalities.

I appreciate that other departments also have to be focusing on equality and social justice, and you have a small budget in this department. I just want to look at how well the Government is using the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 in reshaping its spending plans, because, obviously, preventative spending is crucial if we are ever going to become a less sick nation. The budget, at the very top of its report, says that half the population has been to see primary care in the last month, which is a really astonishingly high figure.

There was one specific I was interested in asking you about in relation to the budget line for equalities, children and families. A pilot has been done under the communities and families budget in Anglesey, Cardiff and Merthyr Tydfil to support families with cookery skills. I just wondered whether you've had any sight of the evaluation that's being done by Public Health Wales of that, because it could be significant in the way the Government wants to spend its future funding for relieving food poverty.

Well, absolutely, Chair. The fundamental underpinning of the budget by the well-being of future generations Act is critical and it informs our strategic integrated impact assessment. And you're absolutely right—if we go back to the key principles and goals, prevention, long-term collaboration, integration and involvement have not just guided me in terms of difficult budget decisions, but all Ministers.

I think, in terms of prevention, you can see that this is short term and long term, isn't it? The pilots are really important. Obviously, I've not only protected the basic income pilot but actually ensured that its integrity is safeguarded, even though it was a difficult decision—finding that extra £3.5 million. I'm sure you will want to question me on it. But other pilots are really important, as you said, and this is where the cross-Government working is crucially important.

The particular pilot that you've mentioned, with cooking skills—and I recall Sarah Murphy talking about the cooking skills pilot, which I think, if I recall, you said last week partially had been funded with European funding, and of course we've lost all of that—I would have to ask the Deputy Minister for Social Services for the outcomes of those pilots, those three that you've talked about, because I haven't taken responsibility for that, but I think it's a really good example of how things can be at risk in terms of these very constrained times financially. But I think it would be helpful if we could bring that back to you, in terms of that particular pilot.

But I think, also, it's interesting, just in terms of that cross-Government responsibility—very much reflected, I think you'll see, in the child poverty strategy, which we'll be discussing tomorrow—that this is across Government, so in the homelessness prevention budget, for example, there is an increase in the homelessness prevention budget of £2 million. There were tough choices for the Minister for Climate Change as well as the Minister for education, as well as, of course, in my smaller budget, but I think that pilot we can certainly look at and come back. The children and communities grant is not in my budget portfolio responsibility, but I'm very mindful of the impacts. Again, it will have its own impact assessment.

Okay. Well, it would be very helpful if you could come back on that, because I think it's relevant to how well we are spending the money we're giving to FareShare and other food poverty organisations, because there is undoubtedly an issue here. You hear families saying, 'I no longer can afford to turn the cooker on,' but then they are using takeaways, and that is actually a lot more expensive than preparing a simple meal at home.

Well, I think there's an awful lot we could talk about this afternoon, I'm sure—

Sure.

—about food funding and those kinds of food poverty. Well, it isn't just about tackling food poverty, it's about building skills through education, and that's something that I—. We did protect that budget that we had. We call it 'emergency food aid', but, actually, you'll see from my written evidence that we've put some capital into funding the food partnerships, because there is so much good work going on, some of which has just come out of community responses—I think we also talked about this in the Senedd a couple of weeks ago—and some of it is much more strategic, like Big Bocs Bwyd, where, with the links to food pantries, linking to cooking skills, not just for children, but for parents as well, you start seeing that joining up. So, I think those kinds of—. Making a strategic approach to that means that we are doing the long term and preventative work.

Okay. Well, it would be very useful, so that we can reflect on anything that you're able to give us in our draft report for Senedd Members, because I appreciate, with a 16 per cent cut in that budget line, we need to make sure that that money is being spent to the best possible effect at the current moment.

Can I call Sarah Murphy to come in now?

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you for being here this afternoon. I am going to ask some more questions about the cost-of-living support measures. So, to begin with, Victoria Winckler of the Bevan Foundation told the Finance Committee that it is hard to see how the report of the expert group on the cost of living has influenced budget allocations. So, Minister, can you outline the conclusions in the report and how they may have shaped the decisions? I believe there were around 29 recommendations.

Well, can I say, the cost-of-living advisory committee played a hugely important role? It was an expert group. We commissioned it. We appointed it to assist us when the cost of living was clearly having a huge adverse impact on the lives of people and communities and families in Wales. And we worked with them. They came back and gave us interim reports, and, in fact, the recommendations we discussed at interim stage with them. And they have had an impact on our budget development in terms of what we focus on. I'd say they've also had an impact on our child poverty strategy, because that came out at the same time as we were consulting on the child poverty strategy. But I think it was quite good the way that they laid it out in terms of short, medium and longer term recommendations. So, just looking at this, we are, actually, going to be publishing, this week, our response. I'm doing a written statement on this. We've got so many things happening this week, but you will be getting a fuller response to the report coming from the expert group.

So, I think one of the issues that is really important is how it's impacted on the child poverty strategy. And this morning, for the benefit of people who aren't in the room with us, I've just been handing out our Welsh benefits charter, which I launched in Blaenavon Resource Centre this morning, because one of the key points that came out is that we needed to maximise income, we need to get entitlement to benefit, we need to get money into people's pockets. Now, everyone has said this. We all agree this here in the committee today. That is a key plank of the child poverty strategy, but it's how you get that money and that entitlement out. So, of those recommendations, in terms of ensuring low-income households get the basics—that was key—getting that funding out, that benefit entitlement out, is crucially important.

The Welsh benefits charter—I hope you'll see that this is a new approach to take-up. It's about a compassionate approach. It's about saying that people shouldn't have to keep applying to different agencies or authorities. It's one place you start—the local authority. Twenty-two local authorities have signed up to the Welsh benefits charter. It's a tremendous breakthrough, actually. And we launched it in Torfaen, where they're already automating their benefits entitlement. This is what we're responsible for in Wales. So, Torfaen are taking the lead, automating the application and roll-out of free school meals. If you get free school meals, then it opens the door to school essentials grants.

Starting with council tax reduction as well—although we have many thousands of people, over 200,000, not having to pay council tax, there still is a low take up of council tax benefit. Education maintenance allowance—you have to apply for that as well. So, I hope you will see, because this is a very strong recommendation from the cost-of-living expert group, but it's not just from them—. The Bevan Foundation—we've been doing work with them. And I think committee members know, working with Policy in Practice—they've helped us with the Welsh benefits charter. And you'll see this in the child poverty strategy, which we're launching, and having an oral statement on tomorrow. So, you will also get a much larger response, a wider, deeper response from me.

Very good. Sioned wanted to come in.

If I could just ask one brief question on the Welsh benefits charter. Now, what the Bevan Foundation has been talking about is a smooth-running system, rather than the charter itself—. Now, given that the—. Everything okay, Minister?

I don't know whether it's—[Inaudible.]. I think I've—. Okay.

So, the Bevan Foundation has been talking about having a system in place, haven't they, not a charter specifically, but you've taken the step of creating the charter. Now, given it's a non-statutory charter, and therefore voluntarily, how does the budget take into account the grave financial pressures on local authorities to deliver the requirements of the charter?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. Well, I think the first step has always been a coherent Welsh benefits system and, actually, you'll see those are my first words in the charter today. It is the first step to have a coherent Welsh benefits system, which all local authorities have signed up to, which is quite a breakthrough. It's a significant step in the right direction. But it's actually about adopting the charter. We've discussed whether this needs to be underpinned in statute, but, actually, first of all, you've got to get everyone to agree to do this, and this is a really good starting point.

It's about administration of the Welsh benefits system, and I've talked about ways in which that will happen now. You're streamlining one point of access, and local government working with Welsh Government to deliver that with Citizens Advice. I've already reflected on the fact that we've safeguarded Citizens Advice through the single advice fund, and today when we went to Blaenavon Resource Centre, we had Citizens Advice there, who are there four days a week, giving advice on the front line to people. It's not just a system, it's not just administration, it's about automation of access to benefits, but it's also about a compassionate approach to delivering benefits. It's rights based. And for me, rights and entitlements and compassion are what we need to see in a Welsh benefits system.

I think the Deputy Minister’s going to do a visit to Ynys Môn later in the week, which I hope you'll see. We're taking the message around all the local authorities; we want to see what they're already doing. I was there with the designated Member, Siân Gwenllian, because this is part of our co-operation agreement. So, let's recognise that we're making a good first step.

Yes, I suppose the point for me is that it costs money to create systems, and usually it's the process that needs to improve. Because what people like Citizens Advice tell us is that you're taking the time of people on the front line to steer through these complex systems. I heard the Bevan Foundation talking in a webinar last week that it can take two hours to go through one form. Well, that's two hours that that adviser doesn't have available to do something else, just because the process is so complex. So, I'm concerned, as it is non-statutory, that local authorities will feel that they don't have to invest the funds to create those smooth, automated processes, because their budgets are so tight.

The fact that local government, well, the partnership council, signed up to this, they've endorsed it, every leader—and we're meeting a few over the coming weeks—every leader has endorsed it; we had the Welsh Local Government Association there today, they're backing it—. Key people who are delivering this are the people in the revenue benefits sections. They are committed to this; it's going to simplify the system, it's going to actually, probably—it's very much an invest-to-save in terms of the way you deliver benefits. So, we haven't had any pushback at all from local government about this; they're entirely committed to it. They want to make it happen. They know that they're going to help contribute to tackling child poverty and poverty as a whole by adopting the Welsh benefits charter.

So, all of them are committed to doing what the best are already doing, so if you're awarding somebody free school meals, they'll also automatically get the schools essentials or other benefits that they will undoubtedly be entitled to because of their profile.

Yes. I mean, Claire has been mostly involved in this. Actually, I'm doing an oral statement in a couple of weeks. We want to give this proper attention in itself. It is a key plank of the child poverty strategy, so it's emerged as a result of all the work we've been doing. The Bevan Foundation, Policy in Practice—I'm sure that they're going to be welcoming this today as well, because that's what they've called for, and we're delivering it, and it is a key plank for the—. But I'm going to do an oral statement in a couple of weeks' time. I'm meeting other local authority leaders. I urge you all to ask your leader—your leaders—how they're getting on in delivering on this new Welsh benefits charter.

Thank you, Minister. We'll move back to Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much. You mentioned Citizens Advice there, Minister. So, Citizens Advice Cymru have said that the protection of the single advice fund budget is extremely welcome, but that they are continuing to work with the Welsh Government to ease the pressure of a flat budget on their advisers and capacity. So, can you update the committee on how that work is progressing, please?

I mean, the single advice fund was a great step forward in terms of making sure that we could support our advice givers across Wales, so protecting the £11 million grant funding. And as you can imagine, we've had to look at every budget head in terms of our budget. It was a real priority, but also this is about a long-standing commitment, and, obviously, the fact is that they're getting their £11 million. Always you could say that they might have wanted more, but we've protected it—there are no cuts to the single advice fund. Of course, the other thing is that they then can't be the only ones giving the advice. Today I met a whole team from Torfaen Citizens Advice who were really excited about the charter because they feel it will help them with their work, but they also have partners, they have the self-help groups. I think one of the crucial things is that we're now also helping everyone else on the front line to get access to benefits advice so that any contact that people have to help with the cost-of-living crisis—. We've got these benefits checkers, so it doesn't always have to be Citizens Advice, for example, it's all the others—registered social landlords. I met with responsible lenders last week, all the credit unions. Everyone's taking on this role and responsibility. Front-line people can do the benefits check; you don't always have to refer to Citizens Advice. So, we protected the budget, but we're also trying to make sure that others can help with giving advice as well.

Thank you. Your paper also said that demand for the discretionary assistance fund is extremely close to the maximum budget available for 2023-24 and that changes are being made to individual assistance payments to mitigate these pressures. So, could you just talk us through what these changes are and whether they'll be sufficient to provide support to those who need it in 2024-25?

We've protected the discretionary assistance fund, and it is a lifeline. Just for the record, between April last year and December, 67,667 people have been supported with £23.4 million in grants. And over £12 million are cash payments, which, again, is getting money into people's pockets for basic living costs.

We did make some changes, from last April, actually, and we consulted with those who refer and engage with the discretionary assistance fund. We reduced the number from five to three, and that's actually how it was before the pandemic. But also, we had feedback about the kinds of goods that we were providing. So, we've replaced tumble dryers with electric airers, we've replaced the provision of a cooker with a cooking bundle—that includes an air fryer, a microwave, a slow cooker and a hot plate. We're only providing fridge-freezers to large households, with the provision of an under-counter fridge and an ice box for single people and couples. Actually, this has been welcomed, because it also fits in with environmental changes and needs and energy costs. So, we are responding to people's lived experience, and I think that's very valuable.

One thing that may come up at some point, I don't know, is the fact that we are also—this is very linked to fuel poverty, isn't it—funding the Fuel Bank Foundation. The fact is that, in today's day and age, the Fuel Bank Foundation, who have been fantastic in giving fuel vouchers to people on prepayment meters, are also now funding electric throws, and people will know what an electric throw is. Some 83,000 have been given out by the Fuel Bank Foundation in Wales [correction: Some 83,000 people have been supported by the Fuel Bank Foundation]. Some people, in terms of tackling poverty and fuel poverty, are keeping warm by having an electric throw. And those cooking bundles, I think, also reflect the state of where we are at the moment in terms of fuel as well as food poverty. But hopefully that answers your discretionary assistance fund point.

But the question was do you think the budget will be sufficient to provide for all the people who need it in 2024-25.

It is a demand-led budget, so we will continue to meet that demand.

Okay. And then you also mentioned the food and fuel support. The supporting communities budget, which provides the emergency food and fuel support, has seen its proposed uplift reduced by £1.5 million from the indicative budget. Which activities will be constrained or no longer be undertaken as a result of this decision, and why did you choose to reprioritise funding away from this area?

One of the things we hoped to do, but we've got this £1.3 billion hole in our budget for next year, is that we hoped to have had a higher budget in this area; we had a higher indicative budget. So, we hoped for an uplift, actually. We haven't had that uplift. It was a £3 million planned uplift. But, actually, we've been able to maintain £1.5 million of the uplift. So, we haven't got that uplift, but it still means that we've got a budget of £2.664 million, which will be £1.5 million higher than this financial year.

We've already touched on this. It's about support for emergency food aid. I've mentioned the Fuel Bank Foundation, and I think that's a really important new partner with us in Wales. I hope some of you have managed to meet with them. We started the funding last year, as a partnership; they don't operate in England, they operate in Scotland, and they've been developing their partnerships. But we've been able to keep support for the Fuel Bank Foundation. They do important work with people off-grid, for people representing rural areas. They have a heat fund—not only the prepayment meters, but also supporting people off-grid as well with the heat fund. So, I think the fact that it is higher—. These are small amounts of money in the big scale of the budget, but it means a lot to people who access those funds.

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Can I call Jane Dodds?

Thank you very much, Chair. You've been talking about the charter, and we all welcome that, I'm sure, in order to ensure that everyone who has a right to benefits can claim those benefits that they need to have. But how will you ensure that the poorest families—namely those families who don't necessarily go to the centres that you've been to this morning, and so on—get the benefits that they are entitled to?

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. That's a really important question. I think I mentioned earlier on the fact that we're trying to train and support everyone who has anything to do with people, and especially the poorest families, so that they also can signpost, but also they can immediately help people, to ensure their take-up of benefits. I was really encouraged and impressed to hear from my colleague Lynne Neagle, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, about the very impressive uptake of Healthy Start vouchers, and that Wales is now the highest in terms of uptake of vouchers. I recall vividly meeting with the Bevan Foundation and the children's commissioner when I started in this role, and I think it might have been the Bevan Foundation who said, 'What you need to do is roll out free school meals'—which we're doing, obviously, in primary school—'and increase the uptake of Healthy Start vouchers'. But that's because health visitors are the ones who will reach some of the most vulnerable families and parents. And I understand from Lynne Neagle—and I think she gave evidence to the Health and Social Care Committee—that health visitors have had training. We've said that this is what should happen—that we should train people on the front line who work with vulnerable people. Health visitors are one example of that.

On the other end of the generation gap, we need to make sure that they're taking up their pension credit. That's something the older people's commissioner is very involved in. And in fact, this is an area where we can work, we should and wish to work, with the UK Government. Where they are non-devolved benefits, like pension credit, like Healthy Start vouchers, we want to work with the UK Government to increase that take-up. But I think it's crucial that everyone working on the front line—. Flying Start is a real opportunity, and as we roll out Flying Start to all two-year-olds. School settings as well; schools are very involved in supporting families. And of course, for any vulnerable person, at whatever age, from early years to senior citizens, we do need to ensure that every contact they make will count. That's what we said, if you recall, last year—every contact counts.

Thank you very much. It's great to hear that you are thinking about opportunities to reach out to those poorest families. Could I ask how you will ensure that this happens across Wales—namely that it's not down to individual councils and local authorities to do this? Because we all know, perhaps, that local authorities work differently. So, how will you as a Government ensure that best practice is adopted across Wales?

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. I think our Welsh benefits charter gives us a real opportunity here, because all local authorities have signed up to it; they've all signed up to the fact that they want to ensure we have a robust, coherent Welsh benefits system where people can access the benefits they're entitled to. It's in local authorities' interest to make sure that their citizens take up the benefits they're entitled to. There still could be more take-up of council tax reduction scheme benefits. This helps local authorities who don't want their citizens to be in debt and they want to reach out to them. So, I think we've got a really good opportunity here. It is the revenue and benefits officers on the front line who are going to be most important, but it's also all the social workers, it's all the health visitors in health boards, GP surgeries. And hopefully, Jane, as we roll out the Welsh charter, all local authorities will see how they can learn from the best practice and reach out to the most vulnerable.

Minister, if I could just add that we also fund the Dangos training for front-line staff to ensure that consistent quality of support. And also, we have a national network of advice networks. So, that best practice sharing is happening through that network. We also work really closely with the Welsh Local Government Association and are doing so on the charter, and more generally, and they've got a key role in that best practice sharing between local authorities.

Thank you very much. Will you be measuring this? Will you be asking local authorities what's happening, whether people are taking up their benefits? Can you ensure that this is happening across Wales?

Yes, we will, and they're committed to doing this as well. They're also subject to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015—the milestones, the indicators—and they have to report on them. Also, in addition to what Claire has said, the public services boards are really important to this. This is the cross-sectoral coming together of all the organisations, including non-devolved, statutory and, indeed, third sector. So, yes, we will measure that, and I think this will be part of the well-being indicators measurement as well to see whether this is having an impact. The Healthy Start vouchers have got to be an important way of getting funds and support to the most vulnerable children in the very earliest days of their lives.

Thank you very much. Chair, I do want to ask one question on basic income, but I think Sioned also had a question about—

Okay. Sioned, and then I'll come back to you, Jane.

Thank you, Chair. Just one question on the child poverty strategy. You've already mentioned it a number of times, and we do look forward to seeing the publication of that strategy. Of course, we're scrutinising this budget without having seen the strategy to date. So, I'd like ask in general terms how the allocations and programmes that prevent and mitigate child poverty—and that emphasis we've heard on the importance of the preventative—have been aligned with the strategy, bearing in mind that we haven't yet seen the strategy.

Also, your paper states that reprioritising and postponing activity has led to a situation where many crucial programmes in delivering the objectives of the child poverty strategy will be delivered at a lower scale than you would like. So, why haven't you given these programmes greater priority, given that you recently said that reducing child poverty is an absolute priority for Government?

Tackling child poverty is an absolute priority. My oral statement will be available to you later on today, and tomorrow when we have an oral statement [correction: The strategy will be available to you later on today, and tomorrow when we have an oral statement]. It's obviously building on the draft consultation and, indeed, responding to your inquiry as well, which we debated only a couple of weeks ago. I think we've already covered some of the areas where my budget has been absolutely—. It had to be so tight it's on the line, and we haven't increased it in the way—. This is partly the fact that we wanted to put more money into the budget next year but we've had to hold it where it is. This isn't just for me. I think an important point—yes, I've mentioned the discretionary assistance fund, which we’re protecting, I’ve mentioned the single advice fund also, which we’re protecting, but also the council tax reduction scheme. I think the fact that we’re hoping now—. We’re protecting this in the Welsh Government budget. We want to up—. It’s back to the demand issue in terms of the discretionary assistance fund; we want more people to apply—it's demand led—for the council tax reduction scheme.

We’ve also maintained funding on the education front, and tomorrow we’ll have statements from the education Minister as well as the economy Minister. So, on education, the school essentials grant made a very significant difference to many low-income families—again, demand led; we’ll meet that demand next year—the school holiday enrichment fund programme, so important this last summer, again, that funding is in line with this year; the pupil development grant—a key part in terms of tackling poverty—and also, obviously, with our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, the roll-out of universal free school meals. We’re doing everything that we can with things that work. Because that’s the other important thing. It’s the things that actually make a difference to children’s lives in terms of the child poverty strategy. I’m a great supporter of free school breakfasts in primary schools, and I think now there is an increase as a result of promoting this as part of improving the life chances of children and young people and tackling poverty.

So, we’ve done everything that we can to protect, not just in my budget, but across the Welsh Government. I won’t go back to Healthy Start vouchers, but I think that some of the work that’s being done by both the mental health and well-being Minister and the Deputy Minister for Social Services—. You’ll see that in the children and young people’s plan. There is a focus, as I said, in the budget on helping those who are hardest hit, and the hardest hit are often children and disabled people.

Okay. If we can keep our questions and answers relatively brief then we'll be able to get through all the areas. Jane.

A final, brief question from me on the basic income for care-experienced young people. Can I ask whether there is an intention, once the programme comes to an end, to carry out a cost-benefit analysis to, hopefully, demonstrate how it has assisted those young people?

Well, that is a key part of our evaluation, which is obviously ongoing, and I am pleased to report that we're going to have an interim report on evaluation, and we've been discussing ways in which we can share that. So, it's not waiting til the end—it's ongoing now, and you'll have an opportunity to scrutinise that, because I want to make the interim report available publicly for your view.

Thank you very much. Moving back to Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm going to ask some more questions now about gender equality. So, the Women's Budget Group has described women as the shock absorbers of poverty. With cuts to childcare funding, the period dignity grant and baby bundles across different ministerial portfolios, how is the Welsh Government addressing the disproportionate impacts of the cost of living on women?

I'll bring in the Deputy Minister in a minute on some of those points, but I think our commitment to gender equality is absolutely clear, because there's no question that women have been disproportionately impacted by the cost-of-living crisis, and particularly those who are lone parents. But protecting VAWDASV is crucial to that. But there have been some difficult choices. Everything I've said about tackling fuel poverty, tackling food poverty, it goes without saying that is also really important to support low-income families, as well as supporting advice services. I think that childcare—obviously, the Deputy Minister for Social Services's responsibility—is so important to gender equality. Flying Start is essential in mitigating costs of living, but also the childcare offer. I'm sure the Deputy Minister responded in scrutiny at committees on this. But I think the fact that we've expanded the childcare offer to women and to parents in education and training will particularly help women and gender equality, and that is a positive step that we've been able to make in this budget.

Thank you. And just to follow up on that, because I did want to come to the Deputy Minister about Chwarae Teg specifically, if that's okay, the Welsh Government has undertaken three gender budget pilots. Can you provide an update regarding the progress and evaluation of these pilots and clarify whether any learning from them has fed into the development of this draft budget?

Deputy Minister, do you want to—?

Yes. I'm on. Diolch. I think it's a really good question, because it links into the previous question to Jane around that gender lens when we're making decisions and making policy, and we know that, as you said, the cost-of-living crisis doesn't just disproportionately impact on women; the decisions that have been made prior to that at UK level in the name of austerity have obviously hit women and those least able to bear the burden the hardest. So, whilst you wouldn't specifically look at some of our policies that we're continuing to support, like Jane has listed, around DAF, around council tax reduction, around free school meals, that is part of that package in terms of actually providing that support. So, the budget continues to be very much shaped by the learning we're drawing from those gender budgeting pilots.

I think one of the points, before I bring Amelia in, perhaps, to give a broader update on where we are now, because I know a lot of work has been done engaging with other Governments too, in terms of what we can learn and build on and share from there, is that in the budget improvement plan we've also committed to a review of the strategic and integrated impact assessment—one of those things that's very simple to say. That will be undertaken during this year, and part of that will include, actually, how we can further embed gender-budgeting approaches to both budget and tax processes. So, I think there'll be perhaps some more work on the horizon, which I think this committee will be very much interested in as well. But, Chair, if I can, if I can just bring Amelia in briefly.

Yes. Amelia.

So, in terms of the first gender-budgeting pilot, that was around the personal learning accounts, and that was fully evaluated and that evaluation was published, and the learning from that has fed in now to further budgeting work. And in terms of the—and, again, this isn't particularly easy to say—but the budget improvement impact advisory group, the Wales Women's Budget Group are a key partner in that, and that whole group, the BIIAG, are looking at gender budgeting and how we can further embed it within all of our processes. And I think it's worth saying as well that Welsh Government has been engaging with other Governments internationally on our learning on gender budgeting to share that learning, and, of course, to learn from them also.

Brilliant. That's excellent.

Sioned.

Just to follow up very briefly on that, you mentioned the personal learning allowances. Of course, those have been cut, haven't they? And, as Sarah mentioned earlier, the period dignity grant has also been cut. So, it's difficult to see the impact of this work, in looking through the lens, as you referred to, with some of these cuts, which have a specific impact on women.

I think Hannah—.

Shall I pick up on period dignity?

Period dignity, yes.

Yes, if I just pick up on the period dignity grant—absolutely, you know. They're often seen as a luxury item; I don't think they're a luxury item or a nice to have. They're clearly a necessity, and it's more important than ever, during a cost-of-living crisis, that you make it available. But, like we said, there's no getting away from the decisions, the really difficult decisions, we've had to make. We've tried to protect the period dignity grant to the extent we can. So, the reduction in that is just based on actually the projected spend from this year. So, we are doing that very much with the mind that we don't think it's going to have an impact on how many people are able to still access them through local authorities, through the various schemes in different communities. But you might be aware, in line with the plan, there was actually a review of it as well. So, we're drawing on the findings of the evaluation of that grant to look at a more strategic approach to help that go—if we're doing things on a limited budget—to make sure they go as far as possible and have the greatest impact that they can have; so, things like it raised around the potential for centralised contracts for schools and community groups to order products, to try and actually see how we can make that more effective within the means that we do have as well.

And just my last question then, Chair, is about Chwarae Teg, which closed in September last year. It would be good to just get an idea of how that has impacted and what the gap has been, really, because they did so much to drive a lot of the issues that we're talking about now, about gender equality. And also has the money been redirected towards other gender equality organisations?

You don't need to touch the mike; it'll come on.

It'll happen.

Thank you. Too keen to speak. I think many of us, we're all very saddened and disappointed by the news that Chwarae Teg were unable to continue. Like you said, they've been a central part of the gender equality landscape for a significant period of time here in Wales. It goes back further than I can remember, being actively involved in activism and campaigns and political life myself. Clearly, it's a huge disappointment and we've been working very closely, both at ministerial and official level, to try and mitigate the impact that that might have in terms of the work that they provided. There's a huge range of work ongoing now, looking at the various projects. So, whilst staff are no longer employed, there are still trustees in place and working with officials. And there are questions around things like intellectual property, so we'll be able to access the state of the nation reports and still have them in a space. But, in terms of the budget-making process, because of the timing of that—. And they are a member of our budget improvement advisory group, but we have other organisations such as the Women's Equality Network Wales on there, so I've been working very closely with them.

What we hope now, moving forward, is the work to actually—. There is a collective will there, shall we say, and commitment to make sure that we minimise the impact of the closure. We've brought together stakeholders and officials already about actually how we can find new ways of working and embed the work that Chwarae Teg has done, whether it's that other organisations need to deliver projects or whether we actually do things as a Welsh Government, especially in the fair work space and women in the workplace, and how we can use the levers that we do have and perhaps those convening powers to make sure that the things that Chwarae Teg have flagged and researched and done over the years are actually implemented now. So, that's something that's an ongoing piece of work, because it's still relatively early days since Chwarae Teg did, sadly, close. But I'm more than happy to keep this committee updated, because I know it's something that will be of interest to Members here.

Okay. Before I come to Altaf, I think Sioned had a question on social partnerships.

Yes. Just one brief question on that. We've seen the social partnerships budget reduced by £161,000, and you state in your paper that this will have no impact on the implementation of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. Can you explain why you expect this to have minimal impact on what can be delivered by March 2025? And will the cut have any longer term implications in terms of what can be delivered?

Thank you for your question.

It's actually very timely, because I think it was just about a year ago today we were in this same committee doing Stage 2 amendments on the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, and I actually have—. Talking about oral statements, there is a statement to the Senedd tomorrow to actually update on the implementation of that legislation, so, obviously, this is very timely. We've been very clear that that implementation work has continued at pace since the Act received Royal Assent in May last year, and the speed with which we've been able to do that is due, in no small part, to the work we've been able to do with our co-operation agreement partners, but also with social partners and stakeholders as well.

So, just to explain, the social partnership budget line supports a range of initiatives, as you'd expect, to promote and embed social partnership, fair work and socially responsible procurement, but also, like you said, to prepare public bodies and other stakeholders and social partners to best make the most of those new duties of the Act, when they come into force, as well as supporting things like secondments and staffing costs within Welsh Government. So, what that cut means, and what we've done in response to the budget pressures, is that we look at some of those planned activities and see if we can approach them a little bit differently. So, those savings have been mitigated by, essentially, reshaping our training offer, so perhaps looking at holding more sessions online rather than face-to-face, and just really practical things like holding fewer but larger regional events to reduce costs. So, we're looking at just basically doing things differently but very much with the commitment that—. I've always made it clear that the legislation is just the first step; we've got to make it work in practice the best that we can. So, we continue to prioritise funding for activities that ensure that effective implementation as well.

Diolch.

Thanks very much. Can I bring in Altaf Hussain now, who's going to ask some questions on promoting equality and strengthening human rights? Altaf.

Thank you, Chair, for that. Good afternoon. Minister, given the concerns set out by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, how is the Welsh Government supporting the voluntary sector, including equality-based organisations, so they can continue to deliver essential services in this challenging financial context? What work has the Minister undertaken to understand the issues facing organisations dependent on funding from the Welsh Government?

Thank you very much, Altaf. This is such an important area of work, isn't it, supporting our third sector and supporting our volunteers in Wales. We hugely value their work. What is really important is that we have a third sector partnership scheme, and I chair the third sector partnership council. So, we work very closely on what are the key priorities, particularly in terms of the difficult funding and draft budget that we've got for next year. So, we have got clear priorities that we've agreed with the third sector partnership council through other grants, so they are volunteering, governance, sustainable funding—all key to that. We are in close dialogue with the chief officers of the county voluntary councils and also, obviously, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action.

What's really important is, of course, we're not the only funders. Local government, health service trusts all fund the voluntary sector. But what we have got, which is key to this, and helps us look at impacts, is a code of practice of funding. I think many colleagues will be aware of this, because many third sector organisations are very concerned about short-term funding. The third sector scheme code of practice we've developed together, and, in fact, the Minister for local government and finance has been recently, I think, stressing the importance of adopting that in terms of funding all the other partners who fund the third sector.

At the moment, we haven't been able to increase it—I think that's the point, Altaf. We didn't increase it the way that we perhaps would have liked to have done, but we've maintained it at the level that we can. We are obviously looking to the close partnership working with the third sector and the code of practice to make sure that they get a fair deal from this draft budget.

Thank you, Minister. Are you able to provide a detailed breakdown of the funding provided by Welsh Government to each of the equalities-based voluntary organisations, and what assessment have you made of the impact cuts will have on the equalities landscape of Wales?

[Inaudible.]—the main third sector infrastructure, WCVA and the county voluntary councils. It's all in the budget expenditure lines in the tables here, so you can see that main funding. I can't tell you what all the other funding levels from their local authorities, health boards et cetera are, but, actually, across the Welsh Government there are many funding streams, and all Ministers and their departments have had to produce impact assessments to see any impacts of changes on their budgets. But I think this is something that probably all Ministers will be asked about—third sector commitments—but I'm responsible for that key infrastructure funding.

Can I just come in as a supplementary, Altaf? The key question for me is how much is the voluntary sector dependent on statutory bodies for its funding, which makes it quite difficult for it to adequately challenge the bodies that are funding it.

I can assure you we have a very robust relationship with the third sector. They are independent, they are the third sector, they both provide services, but they also campaign. Having come from the third sector myself before becoming an Assembly and then Senedd Member, I'm absolutely clear we have a third sector scheme that was based on the principle of partnership, but obviously a constructive, independent relationship.

Thank you. Back to you, Altaf.

Thanks, Minister, and thank you, Chair. This is a question for both of you, Ministers. The actions in the anti-racist Wales and LGBTQ+ action plan sits across the Government, and the spending allocations to progress the actions are therefore taken across different portfolios. Can you clarify whether the commitments arising from these plans have been maintained across all Welsh Government departments?

Thank you very much for that question, because this is something where our commitments to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ and 'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales'—Hannah will respond—are absolutely at the forefront, not just of our portfolio responsibilities, but for all Ministers in the Welsh Government. And I think the fact is that if you look at the ‘Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ annual report, you will see the extent of funding across Welsh Government for that plan. The funding for education of the diversity and anti-racist professional learning of our teachers, for housing funding for Tai Pawb, the health and social care funding for the workforce race equality standard, the employability team funding for Race Equality First resources for Business Wales—they’re all cross-Government responsibilities, and they have been maintained in this draft budget. So, they’re the responsibilities of respective Ministers, but for my part, I am responding to the priority needs within the plan with my budget. Hannah.

Diolch, thank you, Jane. I think it’s very similar in terms of many of the actions of the LGBTQ+ action plan—joint actions, jointly committed to, and will be jointly, then, put into practice with not just other policy areas or divisions of Welsh Government, but external partners as well. And colleagues, if you haven’t seen it, you might be interested that there is now an LGBTQ+ action plan tracker that is available to track progress against the 46 actions, and that’s a live document and it will be regularly updated, and as committed in that plan, I’m due by the end of next month to do an annual update to the Senedd that will reflect on some of those action plans.

I think one of the challenges now in light of the current financial situation is that some actions might need to be phased in over a longer time to match the resources available, but, obviously, we remain absolutely committed to be delivering on those actions. And things like—. I think Jane lists some of the cross-Government ones, so we’ll be looking at the education space, but also in terms of the funding we’ve done for Galop to provide support for people that may have been victims of abhorrent conversion practices, and the work with Hate Hurts Wales in terms of specialist services supporting victims of LGBTQ+ hate crime. And I’m pleased too that the commitment’s there within this budget to continue funding our Grassroots Pride fund too, because of all the anecdotal feedback I’ve had when I’m out and about in the community and particularly meeting young people, that is the thing that they say has actually had an impact for them in terms of feeling included and having that inclusive environment and being able to be themselves, and that is a relatively small fund compared to others, but, actually, small amounts can make a big difference, so I think that’s really something that we’ll continue to really prioritise moving forward as well.

Thank you, Hannah. Minister, you’ve mentioned about disability, and the disability rights action plan is due to be published in March 2024. What impact have the budgetary pressures had on the development of this plan?

Thank you for that question. Yes, we’re moving at pace through the disability rights taskforce, so we’ve got three working groups under way, and all the work streams are going to conclude by March 2024, so that we can move to that draft action plan.

I think in terms of budgetary pressures, because, obviously, we’re receiving recommendations at the moment from the work streams, so they’re not all necessarily needing to be budgetary in terms of impacting on this next draft budget. They’re often about the way things are done. The key work stream, I’ll just say, that started it all off was embedding and understanding the social model of disability across Wales and across Government, but this is about cultural change, it’s not budgetary, and the training that’s gone on—. That, I know, is the key recommendation of the 'Locked Out' report anyway, in terms of the impact of coronavirus on disabled people. But, yes, this plan is on its way.

So, just in terms of budgetary impacts, they've been minor, but it may have been that, for example, rather than going out to contract research outside Welsh Government, we've brought it into Welsh Government. So, our data evidence unit, for example, and our knowledge and analytical services are doing more in-house research, rather than contracting things out. Community mentor arrangements, for example, as well are a very important element of the work.

Thank you, Chair. And can the Minister clarify what progress there has been regarding the completion of the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, and how much of the Gypsy Traveller sites capital grant was spent in 2023-24? What reassurance can the Minister give that more progress and use of the funds will be made in 2024-25? Thank you.

Thank you. And this is, again, a key priority for me. So, I've been meeting local authorities over the last six months, accompanied by officials, Amelia John particularly, to consider their GTAAs, their Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, to bring them up to speed with how we can respond to them. We're looking at the drafts, we're clarifying issues and updates. So, it did result in no applications for capital funding in this financial year, but the key thing is that we've got this allocation for the next financial year. And as I've been meeting authorities—and some of those authorities have been the ones, from north to south, with perhaps the most challenging issues in terms of those accommodation assessments—I am urging them to get their proposals ready for access to this sites grant for the next financial year, and have protected that capital budget.

So, Minister, are you saying—

[Inaudible.]

We've two months still left of this financial year; are you saying that no money will be spent from that budget yet again?

There have been no applications from local authorities across the whole of Wales for capital funding in this financial year.

So, even though—. I appreciate your commitment to this. So, despite having a Minister who is so committed to it, still nothing has happened on this for the last several years.

No, there are no applications for this financial year from local authorities. So, my meetings with local authorities—it's a statutory responsibility, it's their responsibility. My meetings with local authorities over the past six months in particular have been about getting them up to speed to make those applications, but the reality is that it can't be for this financial year. But the work they are doing now means that, on 1 April, they should be able to hit the ground running.

Shall I come in, Minister? There is a team responding on all the GTAAs, asking further questions so the Minister can write out and approve or not approve the GTAAs, but I think also, critically, an absolute priority is to engage with every single local authority to promote that capital grant to ensure that they're making applications and there's full uptake of it next year. So, that's a huge priority for the team.

Okay. The committee is likely to come back to this issue. Altaf.

Thanks, Chair. I think Jane has a question.

Okay. Jane.

Yes, I'm sorry, it was to follow up and to continue your line of questioning, if I may, Chair. Is it correct, Minister, that £3.6 million is underspent in this budget? And if that's the case, then where is that going and how will that be managed, going forward? It seems a sizeable amount if it's as we understand from our documents. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Jane. Sorry, for coming in too soon, too quickly. I mean that the capital hasn't been spent—it's the capital that hasn't been spent. Obviously, we've got revenue funding support for our Gypsy, Roma, Traveller communities in terms of the organisations we're backing, but the capital hasn't been spent. It was £3.19 million in 2023-24. Clearly, if capital hasn't been spent, it goes back to the centre and then is reallocated. My safeguarding of it from 1 April means this is a strong message, and, thankfully—and I know that this is shared with you—the authorities have got to get on and make those applications so that we can spend that money next year.

Jane, do you want to continue with any further questions you have on refugees and asylum seekers?

Thank you very much. I want to ask about the bus pass first of all—the one that's particularly available to refugees. As we understand it, this is to end in March 2024. What's the intention with this? Will it be continued, because it is very important that this bus concession continues to be available?

Absolutely. It was a 'welcome ticket', and that's what it should be—a welcome to Wales. It was introduced as part of the response to the war in Ukraine and was part of the bus transition fund, so I'm working closely with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on this. It's due to come to an end at the end of March, but we are now working across Government on this with partners, including sanctuary seekers, the Welsh Refugee Council, to explore options for a sustainable model of the welcome ticket in Wales. That's a part of our commitment to be a nation of sanctuary.

Thank you very much. So, from your response, are you saying that the ticket will be available from April of this year? Can you confirm that or not?

Well, where are we now? We're in January, so we're working on the solution for a sustainable model, and I certainly hope, you know, by the time we get to the points of budgets—draft budgets—we'll be able to clarify where we are on it.

Thank you. Can I bring in—?

Thank you—

Sorry, did you have another question, Jane? Yes.

Yes. Sorry.

Thank you very much. The Wales Sanctuary Service is funded until 2025, and that's to be welcomed—that's very important—but their budget has remained flat over the past five years; it hasn't changed at all. Why is that? What's the reason that the budget for this organisation hasn't altered at all in the five years? Thank you.

Well, we do fund the Welsh refugee consortium, which is a consortium of organisations, with the Welsh Refugee Council being one of them. Chair, can I come back with a breakdown of that funding, because, actually, my question, in a sense, would be—? My reflection on that question is: we've put a lot more money into some of those organisations as a result of our commitment to the Ukrainian refugees, Housing Justice Cymru, the Welsh Refugee Council, Red Cross. Could we come back to you as soon as possible with a breakdown of all the funding? The Wales Sanctuary Service, you know, is such an important service, but it's not just about supporting and welcoming our Ukrainian refugees, but Afghan refugees, Syrian refugees, and, indeed, we're now committed to the Wales asylum dispersal plan. We would say, also, we need funding from the Home Office to help us with that plan, and, unfortunately, it looks as though we're going to lose funding from the UK Government on the next stage of our support for Ukrainian refugees. Last year—well, this financial year—we got over £8 million to help with the resettlement and move-on. It's looking as though we're going to get much less—well, this is for local authorities principally—on that as well. So, we're very dependent, again, on UK Government and Home Office support.

It would be very useful to have the facts and figures on that. Thank you very much. Is that your last question, Jane?

Yes. Thank you very much.

Okay. Can I bring in Ken Skates now?

Thanks, Chair. I'm really conscious of the time, so, I'm going to try and compress my questions down into just two or three, if I may, beginning first of all with violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Now, the BEL for this has been protected, but are there potential risks that you foresee for voluntary sector partners who provide essential services in this area due to broader reductions in voluntary service grants?

This is protected specifically for those third sector organisations—over £8 million. So, all the specialist services are protected by this protection of the overall budget.

Okay, thank you. Just some questions for the Deputy Minister as well, regarding fire and rescue services, and I guess this is a broader question about workplace cultures. The Deputy Minister made a very powerful statement recently in the Chamber about issues concerning workplace cultures. Is the Government considering putting a conditionality of funding for organisations in place, particularly in remit letters, to ensure that staff, and especially management, undergo training in regard to how to behave properly and appropriately and lead properly as well in the workplace?

Thanks, Chair. Thank you. The Member refers to the recent, very damning report on culture and values in South Wales Fire and Rescue Service. Like you said, I did a statement in the Chamber and I will be updating the Senedd very shortly in terms of the progress of the action that the Welsh Government will be taking on that. But you raise a valid point in terms of, actually, how we use the levers we do have to ensure the workplace cultures and standards that we would expect of any organisation, let alone an organisation that is tasked with protecting the public. So, as part of the work we will be doing, we will look at, actually, how we can ensure that not only are those recommendations of the culture and values review implemented by South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, but the potential lessons there that can be applied to not just the fire and rescue authorities, but the public sector as a whole.

Excellent, thank you. Now, there's a reduction in the community fire safety budget of £457,000 and that includes the cessation of the arson reduction programme. Are you able to elaborate on the impact assessment that was conducted to ensure that essential community fire safety measures, particularly those relating to arson prevention, won't be compromised?

Thanks. Perhaps it would be helpful if I just touched on what we've had to reduce and what we've protected and the rationale behind that, around the arson reduction programme. That is a historic grant that we've provided for the fire and rescue service. As Members will know, we don't, as the Government in Wales, directly fund the core services of fire and rescue services. The fire and rescue authorities actually have a statutory duty to promote fire safety and fire prevention themselves, and many of the projects we usually fund fall within that remit. As such, where we are now in the current financial climate, we don't have the justification to provide extra funding for things that you would expect the fire and rescue service to provide as part of their statutory duties, but we do expect that work will continue, and, obviously, we'll be working very closely with our partners on that important area of work.

Where we have, in these difficult decisions we've had to take, prioritised that protection of funding is around the services' youth prevention and young people programmes. We know that they've proved highly successful in reducing offending and promoting access to education. So, there are wider well-being objectives there that go beyond the statutory duties of the fire and rescue services, but it's sent into other areas of priority for the Welsh Government and, I imagine, Members here too [correction: but there are other areas of priority for the Welsh Government and, I imagine, Members here too]. The programme goes far beyond those core duties and, actually, potentially changes the life path of people.

Chair, if I can just touch on a couple of those programmes, because I think it adds context for Members. So, there's the Phoenix programme. In 2023-24, that aims to reach a target number of 490 participants. There's the Reflect programme, with 3,000 participants. And I know that the FRAs are on target to achieve these numbers. And 258 young people participated in the Phoenix programme during the first two quarters of 2023-2024. I'm happy to share with the committee more details about what those programmes entail as well, and I would certainly recommend going along, if you can, in your own areas, to actually see the Phoenix programme for yourselves, seeing the young people when they first come along but also at the end of the programme, and the change we've seen in those young people and the pride that they take in what they've learnt and those transferrable skills, and that they will then hopefully be able to change their paths in the future as well.

Lovely. Thank you. I'd be really grateful for any further information. That would be very helpful indeed.

I was going to ask a question about the £0.25 million in the budget to replace equipment for high-volume pumps during major flooding incidents. But instead of perhaps answering now, it would be really helpful to understand—and this can be conducted in writing—how the replacement systems enhance the national resilience capability, if that's okay. I'm just conscious of time, Chair. And, instead, I'll ask a question about the south Wales fire authority. Now, it released its budget plans for the next financial year, and it was said that Bridgend council could face an increase of more than £400,000 for its annual contribution, and that's down to fuel and pension costs. What are your views on this, and is this something that's more widespread across Wales?

So, firstly, Chair, I'm more than happy to follow up in writing to the committee around the capital funding for the two prime movers, which we would know more as mid-size trucks in common language.

But in terms of the really important issue you raise, Ken, around Bridgend council and the related South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority, obviously, as things stand, the fire and rescue authorities have full discretion to set their own budget and levy contributions on their constituent local authorities accordingly. But I think Members won't be surprised that several local authorities have raised this with both me and the Minister for Finance and Local Government in terms of the pressures that that can consequently place on their budgets. So, the Minister for Finance and Local Government has written out to fire and rescue authorities to be more mindful of the situation that local authorities are in in terms of when it comes to managing and setting their own budgets and their levy. But, actually, we're at a point now where, actually, we are very actively considering options for reforming the system to bring greater accountability and transparency in due course.

Excellent. Thank you. That's really interesting. Thanks, Chair.

Okay. That's something we may want to come back to, because, obviously, surprises like that shouldn't be happening, really.

Several reports that we've done in the last year or two have emphasised the importance of accurate data in order to inform decision making. So, I wondered if you could just tell us how the equality data units and, indeed, the equality, poverty and children's evidence and support areas have been used to identify the most effective way of cutting up the budget cake in order to protect those who we can all agree are the most vulnerable?

Well, thank you for that question, and, in fact, I've covered this in my written evidence, in paragraphs 68 and 69, about the equality, race and disability units, and, actually, have given some indication of what they've already done in my written evidence—research into approaches to boost the national survey for Wales, looking at the granular evidence that we need for policy decisions, equality characteristics, setting the LGBTQ+ action plan, how it can be evaluated, research into the social model of disability. But I would have to say that we can write to you with some more examples, because we haven't, probably, got time. But the work that was done from the pandemic, on the socioeconomic impact of coronavirus on black, Asian and minority ethnic people, called for a race disparity unit. They've had a huge impact on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' already in a number of ways. They've been helping provide the data for the implementation of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, perhaps, if it would help, we can write to you more fully. It isn't just for my portfolio, of course; it's for all Ministers to use the equality, race and disability evidence units. They sit, for example, on our disability rights taskforce, and have been very engaged in delivery on the issues around the social model of disability. But, time being precious, I'm very happy to write to you with more examples.

I absolutely wasn't wanting to suggest that these were units of evidence just for your department. It's absolutely crucial that the Government is making decisions based on accurate information. And, I suppose, what you're not telling us, really, is how many people are working on this and how well they are bringing together the information from three different work streams—i.e. equality, race and disability.

Well, this, I would beg to say, is not really for the budget today. I'm very happy to come back and talk more about the—

Okay.

Because we haven't reduced the budget. We're building the team. They are critically important, as you say, to every Minister, to make sure we've got that granularity of equality impact. I have to say, also— because we know this committee is very interested in access to data, some of which is not devolved—they work very closely with the Cabinet Office, the race disparity unit in particular, because they've learned from them very much in terms of the UK Government being at the forefront of this when Theresa May appointed the race disparity unit. So, I'm very happy to come back on how we're staffing the team, but I think the important point for today in the draft budget is they've given information on the strategic integrated impact assessment, and also they do the work on the 'Well-being of Wales' report on assessing our progress with national well-being goals. But, clearly, we need to be able to share more with the committee about the team, the budget, the way that they're delivering, and the positive impact that we believe they're having as a Government.

Thank you. Did you want to come in? We have four minutes left.

Just a brief question on the impact on particular groups, following on from some of the questions asked by Altaf Hussian. There's a significant reduction in the level of funding for police community support officers. I just wanted to ask what assessment has been made of the impact of this on the ability to deal with hate crimes—we know that, in some cases, they're on the increase—and to support those groups who are more likely to suffer as a result of hate crimes. So, what impact assessment has been done in terms of that cut?

Earlier on, you were asking, right at the start, about big decisions, in a way, we've had to make, and a big decision was reducing the PCSOs budget. It's still over £15 million that we're putting into the PCSOs budget, but we've made that reduction of £7.5 million because it's not devolved, and we had to make tough decisions. We're recognising the role that they play in terms of community safety, and indeed they have a role in tackling hate crime. But we also, of course, are still investing in our community safety budget—the support that we're giving to our hate crime victim support centre. This is crucial in terms of the delivery of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', tacking disability hate crime, tackling LGBTQ hate crime. These are all within our plans, and we have protected the hate crime budget to do that. So, yes, we haven't been able to talk about the PCSOs cut, but this is where we've felt that we needed to see what we could do in terms of this very constrained budget, and to take decisions in partnership. I've been talking with our police colleagues—I co-chair the partnership board—since last summer about the fact that we can't continue to support them in the way that we would like. But we're sharing with them the way forward. We're working very closely and collaboratively with them. And £15.5 million is a big part of my budget, which is still going to support them.

Okay. Very good. An evaluation of the impact of that service would be useful, but we haven't got time to go into that.

Oh yes, the impact assessment is part of it.

Excellent. Sarah.

As we've got time, I'm just going to loop back round to a question I didn't get a chance to ask. Disability Wales wrote to our committee last October to stress the importance of including specific financial support for disabled people in the 2024-25 budget. The cost-of-living expert group also recommended targeting cost-of-living support to assist disabled people. So, can you explain why that hasn't happened and why it has not been possible?

It's pretty clear, isn't it, why it hasn't happened. We've got a £1.3 billion cut to our budget. My budget is £139 million, and I've had to take £7.5 million out of the PCSOs budget. The money isn't there. Of course, we would like to be able to do these things. We'd like to be able to support, like we did with the winter fuel support scheme. Let's hope we get a Government that will enable us to have a better financial settlement in years to come.

Thank you.

Thank you very much indeed, Minister, for your attendance, along with Hannah Blythyn, your Deputy Minister, and all the officials. Thank you very much, all of you. Obviously, we're going to send you a transcript, and you should make sure that we haven't captured the information you've given us inaccurately. Also, there will be some correspondence, which will be really helpful to fill in some of the gaps on the detail. Thank you very much indeed.

I now suggest that we exclude the public for the remainder of today's meeting under Standing Order 17.42. Is that agreeable? Thank you.