Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Members, we will move straight on now to papers to note—item 3. We have 3.1 about Baden-Württemberg. Item 3.2 is about the National Contemporary Art Gallery, and we also have 3.3 on the Arts Council of Wales and the investment review. Item 3.4—Welsh Government draft budget 2024-25; 3.5—legislative consent on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill; and 3.6—allegations surrounding the Welsh Rugby Union. Are Members willing to note those papers? Yes.

Yes, okay, if everyone is content, we'll move on to item 4. I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to exclude the public from items 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10 of today's meeting—

Chair.

Yes, Carolyn.

Sorry to come in there, but just regarding the national underground asset register, would that be going to other committees as well—the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee? I know Llyr is here and he's the Chair of the committee.

We can check that, Carolyn. That's a good question. We'll check that.

Thank you.

Thank you for raising that.

So, are Members content to resolve to exclude the public from those items today? Yes. Okay, we'll wait to hear that we're private, but for people who are viewing, just to tell you that we will be back live for the next evidence session at 1 o'clock. But we'll wait to hear that we're private.

Welcome back. We'll move on now to item 9. We're looking again at culture and the new relationship with the EU, and we're having an evidence session with the umbrella bodies this afternoon. I'll ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go from left to right. Ruth, first.

Hello. My name is Ruth Cocks, and I am director of the British Council here in Wales.

Lovely. Tom.

I'm Tom Kiehl. I'm the interim chief executive officer of UK Music, which is the umbrella body for the music industry, representing all the various component parts and creator organisations, collecting societies, music publishers and record companies.

Lovely. Thank you so much.

And Eluned.

Good afternoon. Eluned Haf, head of Wales Arts International in the Arts Council of Wales.

Thank you very much. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay with you. Could you please set out, or in what way would you quantify the amount of cross-border work that cultural workers from Wales did before we left the EU? And how has that changed since then? And what are the greatest consequences that you've seen since we left? Whoever wants to go first.

Perhaps I'll go first, or Tom.

Shall I go first?

The first thing to say is that there is a need to look at where data emanates from. I think there is a richness of data available from before we left the EU in terms of programmes and funding and what has been spent in Wales. But, of course, that does not represent the movement of artists, and it isn't either, necessarily, something that is consistent across the four nations of the UK. So, I think there is a need to consider data. Having said that, there are bodies, such as UK Music and the Independent Society of Musicians, that have done a lot of work specifically in regard to musicians across the UK, and, at that point, I think I'll bring Tom in to provide you with more details on the music sector.

Sure, certainly. Thank you. The EU is the biggest market for the music industry. It accounts for around 50 per cent of creator incomes, so that's a significant proportion. What we have found from analysing—. We've done some recent surveys in the last couple of years to ascertain the impact of Brexit on the music industry and creators in particular. We looked at it in terms of engagements and work opportunities and also in terms of incomes, and what we've seen is that one in three people who responded to our survey—these are musicians, creators—have seen their incomes impacted by Brexit, and, of those, 82 per cent have seen significant decreases. So, it has already had a very profound and damaging impact on a vast amount of creators and musicians and their ability to tour. So, that is obviously significant for us as a sector. In addition to that, we've also worked with an organisation, the Independent Society of Musicians—they have also done a recent survey that indicated that 47 per cent of people are now receiving less work than they did prior to Brexit. So, again, in terms of opportunity to work, that is really significant, and 27 per cent of those people are actually saying that they don't have any work opportunities at all now, it's simply dried up. So, the impact of Brexit on our sector is profound.

We don't have specific figures in terms of the granular level in terms of the Welsh impact, but it's something that we can work with and maybe provide the committee with at a subsequent point. I would say that the actual Welsh sector—putting the Welsh sector in context—pre pandemic, there was a survey that indicated that the Welsh music industry is worth around £243 million in gross value added to the economy and also employs around 8,000 people, and the live sector is worth something like £115 million in terms of that. So, a significant sector and one we all want to continue to ensure flourishes.

Thank you so much, Tom. Before I bring Llyr Gruffydd in, who's got a supplementary, while you were both speaking, we were joined by some very welcome guests, Dr Paul Thompson, chairman of the British Council and Kate Ewart-Biggs OBE, deputy chief executive of the British Council. You're very welcome to be with us, in the gallery, this afternoon. Thank you very much for being with us. Now, I know that Llyr had a question.

Yes. I just wanted to ask, we heard in the previous session this morning that there are two things that need to be done to make the case for changing the current situation, in that there is a narrative, and that's quite strong at present, but we need data as well. You've quoted some data—how robust is that data? In terms of the samples, how significant were they? You suggested that there is more you can do. Is that something that is going to happen, or something that you'd like to happen?

I mean, certainly, in terms of the sample side, that was significant—it was over 2,000 people, which I think is a statistically significant survey. So, I think that's pretty robust. Yes, we probably have the data, we just need to analyse it a little bit more to draw out the particular regional variances, so I think the raw materials are there and we can provide that further.

Okay, thank you.

Diolch. Before we move on to Carolyn—

Could I ask you, in this morning's session, we discussed some of the less tangible things in terms of the lost opportunities and so forth. How much of a concern is that for you in terms of those losses that we can't quantify, or we can't quantify what we've missed out on, almost?

I think that is a great concern for us all. The impact of Brexit has been serious on this sector. That was something that we reported to this committee back during the transition period. We have, of course, some detail in terms of the programmes that have been lost through Creative Europe, for example, and how important it was, not only in the way that we were working as partners across the UK in order to get the best for Wales, whether that was for the media side, but also, in our case, the culture side of things as well, and that then fed into important networks in Europe that were being led from Wales, such as Literature Across Frontiers, for example, but also our companies and our individual artists.

You have a series of presentations in your packs from artists such as Jones the Dance, NoFit State, BBC National Orchestra of Wales, the Welsh National Opera—companies and individuals who have really been really impacted, now, by the need to know how to do the work and have the resources to do that. But, also, on top of the fact that we've left the European Union, costs have increased significantly. The expenditure on arts in Wales, as Dafydd Rhys, our chief executive, said on Front Row quite recently, has reduced since 2010 by 37 per cent in grant in aid. So, if you add all of this together, it's a sort of perfect storm where it's going to make it very difficult for our artists and supporting organisations to survive that storm.

Yes, thank you for that.

Ruth, I know you wanted to come in.

Well, it's a simiar point, really. Obviously, there's a loss of funds, and it's not just programmes like Creative Europe, but also the structural funds from which the arts and culture sector in Wales profited greatly—we've got some statistics on that, if you're interested—and the rural development plan as well. So multisources of funding, but it's also around the connection with peers and the insights, the creativity and the innovation you get through those cross-programme-working multicountry, multipartner, insights into another culture, connections with other countries, small nations in the EU who are bilingual, like us, who have more similarities with Wales in terms of small nations. Those kinds of cross-peer learning and informal networks are invaluable, and our evidence suggests that the generation I grew up in has these informal networks because we were part of these EU programmes. However, the current generation won't have that and, in 10 years' time, they will have died out, as well as the loss of formal networks. The British Council is still a member of EU National Institutes for Culture, but we've had to change our status, for example. We're still a member of other formal networks that were part of the EU, but, often, the status is changed, the financing changes, and then that makes a difference. So, it's not just the funding; it's the informal networks, as well as the life experience that comes with that, and then, of course, the formal networks that we're just not a part of in the same way as we were.

Thank you. Were you indicating that you wanted to come in, Tom?

Just to add to that, from our perspective, particularly from the commercial sector, the bigger organisations, the bigger acts will find workarounds, and I think that's something that needs to be stressed. Obviously, bureaucracy increases and costs increase, but I think one of the big challenges is for the up-and-coming acts and those who actually don't have those established fan bases. Previously, they had that ease of movement, going over to Europe, and were able to perform with limited bureaucracy and costs going behind it. I think that's one of our big—. In terms of opportunity loss, the fact is that it's a smaller opportunity for people in Wales and elsewhere.

Thank you.

Thank you to the three of you for that. We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas, who's online

Thank you. Could you quantify what the increased administrative burden and financial burden look like?

I've got individual examples in our submission. We work with a number of partners, who also, I think, submitted separately—NoFit State circus, for example, and BBC National Orchestra of Wales. Some of the key areas that have changed are things like preparing a carnet, particularly for companies that have large equipment, big pieces of instruments, et cetera, to use. So, I think NoFit State said that they have estimated a £28,000 increase in human resource and insurance against indemnities for taking their carnet across, and it took six people three weeks to prepare just for one tour.

In terms of visas, because of the 90-day, 180-day rule and how you have to come back to the country before being able to do that, they weren't able to extend certain tours that they would have done for summer bookings, and that led to a loss of income of about £120,000 and a reduced gross profit of the tour of about £40,000.

Equally, employing EU nationals to work in Wales has increased—they have a sponsoring status, and they had that before for non-EU nationals; they now have it for EU nationals. But even things like health insurance, which was covered previously via the EU, they're estimating £1,305 per person, per employee. Ultimately, their touring has witnessed a 40 per cent reduction in profit margins. I've got more, but I will hand over, because I know that's just one example.

I'd like to talk about orchestras, and they've had this issue with cabotage, the rules around cabotage and the number of movements that trucks can do. A lot of those orchestras own their own fleet, and so, actually, under the cabotage rules, can no longer operate as they had previously. So, they're having to find workarounds for that, and that's costing something like £20,000 in addition for an orchestra to tour the EU in order to be able to travel and make the stops necessary.

In addition to that area, like carnets, just to illustrate some of the further points, and I think this is a Welsh-specific example too, Holyhead doesn't have a designated carnet port. Certainly, the port itself does not have a designated place where the carnets can be processed, so they have to be processed elsewhere. So, if you're a band or an artist, you've got to book in advance, and that will, obviously, have the increase—that has to be 24 hours, I think, before you actually embark on your journey. So, going from Holyhead to Dublin and the kind of touring aspect there, that is significant.

Thank you.

Carolyn, I think Eluned just wanted to add something.

Yes, the other thing I would say as well is the additional burden on the public purse in Wales to just be able to support our artists to carry on being members of networks, as Ruth rightly said. We're really prioritising keeping the membership of IETM, On the Move, Culture Action Europe, and I could reel off a number of other networks and showcase events that we support artists to attend. But, obviously, in the past, dancers like Jones the Dance would have had their funding from Creative Europe. Our companies and our individuals who used to have money coming directly to them from Creative Europe now apply to us in the Arts Council of Wales for that funding, and we are unable to sustain the level of demand to keep our artists involved.

Ruth, did you want to come back in?

Yes, going back to the point around orchestras, from conversations with BBC National Orchestra of Wales, they have to now pay quite expensive experts under the CITES rule, to verify the kind of wood that’s in each instrument, which comes at a cost—every single piece of equipment has to have a certificate to say there are no endangered species et cetera, whereas, previously, musicians could kind of clearly walk on. Also, there was a good example where they performed in Germany, and the rules around taxation and income tax just weren’t clear, and so they were in conversations with the German Government about tax that had been withheld. So, they hadn’t received their full pay for a performance, and it’s just a complicated area where the rules aren’t clear, and each individual artist is having to negotiate with each individual country and what the agreement was with that country with the UK Government. In NoFit State’s case, I think they went back to an agreement from 1990, when they were working with the Czech Republic, because that was the most recent agreement they could find around taxing parameters and working with the Czech Republic.

Gosh. Diolch. Did you have another question, Carolyn?

No, no, thank you. You said you had more data and statistics, but more than you can actually speak on at the moment, so we’d welcome any extra, if you’d like to send it to us for us to look at afterwards. Thank you very much.

Diolch, Carolyn. Yes, please, if you could send that through in writing, that would be very useful.

We'll move to Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Chair. Can you tell us, perhaps—you’ve spoken a lot about statistics already, and maybe I’m going to ask you for some more—what impact this new relationship with the EU has had on the financial viability of the creative professions in Wales? Rather than talking about individuals, what about the broader financial viability?

I’ll go back to the first answer I gave: It’s not just Brexit affecting this, but how much public funding is being spent on the arts in Wales. I think that I’m right to say that 0.15 per cent is being spent on the arts, whereas it's 0.5 per cent in Scotland and 0.6 per cent in England. Other countries, on a European level,. Finland, for example spends over 2 per cent, so that gives you a picture of where the arts is at the moment. Creative Europe and other funding programmes, including programmes that have funded the wide network of excellent art centres that we have in Wales, came through Objective 1 and subsequent programmes. The impact of that has been quite big, but we only know what we can’t spend money on now, in the context of what was spent during the EU period, and what we can’t do at present is capture the data on what could have been, or perhaps what should have been, and I think that there is the lack of data across the UK, because we’re all, as arts councils, responsible for different kinds of arts or creativity; we don’t operate in the same way.

But one thing that has facilitated artists' mobility is collaborating on information provision. It’s not perfect at all, and we don’t have the necessary resources to do that, but Arts Infopoint UK, the info point that we’ve helped to set up here in Wales, is jointly funded across the UK and is part of the On the Move network, which is one of the main international networks for supporting the mobility of artists. The network provides the intel that we need—and it's not just for us, but across the arts—and it supports mobility into the 27 countries. Not every country has a desk, but we have a network, and that forum is coming to Caernarfon, to Galeri, in April, and I think it would be interesting to have this committee, perhaps, joining part of that, because 80 of these info points are going to be coming to Wales, to discuss some of these challenges.

Okay. One thing I just wanted to pursue was how the circumstances, as they are now, affect practitioners differently at different stages in their careers, because, as a layperson—and you can correct me; please do so—I would presume that the reliance on European money is greater at the start of that journey, and that the opportunities for travel and the income resulting from that are greater later on. Perhaps I'm generalising too much, I don't know. I just want to understand—rather than just the general impact, it's more subtle than that, depending on where you are in your career, I would assume.

Yes, but I don't think it's entirely fair to say that.

Okay, fine.

I think it's very difficult for young artists to tour now and to have the support that they need to be able to cope with the challenge of working internationally. I think that's certain, but I think that European programmes are generally very complex to be a part of. The infrastructure was set up over a 30-year period across the UK and the way in which we've been working with partners. That hasn't been lost, of course, because we're still working with those networks. But there is a deficiency as regards our ability to be part of the funding. But I don't think that it is—. Maybe Ruth will be able to talk a bit more about this, but, on the Erasmus side, there is a comparison to be made there and maybe there are lessons where, while Wales has learned from the Taith programme, in the arts sector, we haven't had the same kind of programme to help to bridge that gap.

I just wanted to go back to the original question around the finance impact, because I don't think there is research that shows particularly one part of the sector or part of the stage of the career. We have anecdotal evidence that, potentially, obviously, smaller artists, individual artists, are more affected by the costs. However, the larger organisations with the big equipment—the circuses, the orchestras—are very much affected, and the music industry.

I think, in 2021, we commissioned a report with the Welsh Government, Creative Scotland, the British Film Institute and Arts Council England, and it was around the impact of the withdrawal of Creative Europe, and it said that, financially, people said that, of the participating firms in that, 63 per cent of them claimed to be more profitable, 76 per cent of them claimed to be more resilient financially, 86 per cent of them claimed to be more competitive in Europe, and 77 per cent claimed to have achieved a higher turnover when they were part of Creative Europe. So, we do have statistics like that specifically.

On the Erasmus/Taith question, I think it is right that the Welsh Government have made huge efforts to offer an alternative mobility programme where Erasmus was, and that hasn't happened necessarily in the arts. And there are benefits to Erasmus—a Welsh offer for Welsh people. There's a lot that's been done on access to those opportunities and bringing in a more inclusive beneficiary to those programmes. I think, if you're in Wales, you feel that you've got more of a chance of getting an opportunity through Taith, because, as I said, it's uniquely Welsh. However, I think, across the board, the sector are telling us in Wales that if that money could be put into Erasmus, there would still be a demand for that in terms of scale of networks, in terms of scale of funding, in terms of the size of the programme. But I think there are arguments on both sides, so it will be interesting to see where the Welsh Government land on that in the future.

If I can turn the situation on its head, do we know how many creative artists or creative workers from the EU were operating in Wales before these changes emerged and what impact that has had on those levels of operation?

I do not have that data. I don't know whether Eluned does.

No, we're not aware that that's been measured in any way.

No, that hasn't been quantified. There is a discussion going on at present in terms of the way the Arts Council of Wales is asking for international data and how we change the definition of working internationally to include festivals and centres that include these artists in their programmes. In the past, international work would have been considered as something that happened outwith Wales rather than something that happened here. Of course, that's a broader discussion than we might want to have here today, because there's also the definition of 'international' and 'access', and what role is played by diverse communities and different languages, and so forth, in Wales. That's another discussion, I think, but it's an important one.

Yes, that's another discussion, but an interesting one. Okay. Let's look again through a slightly different lens. Are there any sub-sectors that have benefited as a result of the changes that we've seen to the rules? I think I know the answer, but I'd like to hear you say it.

No.

I think there have been movements to compensate for the exit from the EU, and therefore there has been great movement in Wales with offers for Welsh artists—Sinema Cymru, for example. There are some good examples of where Creative Wales have pulled together 35 participants for tv and the creative industries. I don't think it compensates for the loss, and there isn't a study that I'm aware of on the comparative loss of funding and networks from the withdrawal from the EU, through Creative Europe and various other funds we mentioned earlier, versus the amount of money that then has subsequently been put into Wales through the prosperity fund, through various initiatives through the Welsh Government to compensate for that. I don't think we have the net balance of what that would look like. So, whereas there have been positive moves and you'll see things starting to flourish, I think it's compensating for a greater loss. So, I couldn't tell you whether there was a net benefit. I don't think so, from my understanding of our work, but Eluned—.

Tom, did you want to come in?

I wanted to come back to Creative Europe, if that's all right, but I don't know if you want to—.

The only thing I would say, to pick up on what Ruth was saying, is that we've had to rethink how we work with the world, and I think redefining what that international work is is important—thinking about how we work in other places that we've not been taking for granted, maybe, like we've taken the European Union for granted. But, the additional cost of working somewhere like India, for example, or Australia, the States, also brings considerable pressure on travel and resources—and Asia. So, I'd say that I think it has forced us to think more globally.

I was going to ask if there had been an increase in opportunities to work beyond the EU—

Yes, there has been.

Yes, but I presume that it doesn't make up for what has been lost.

No. I wouldn't argue that it's one or the other or otherwise shouldn't happen, but I think Wales's experience is a valid one to look at in an European context in terms of the changes that we've gone through, particularly broadening participation and the valid work that's going on in social justice in the arts. Perhaps it's something that we wouldn't have looked at so much if it hadn't been for the experience that the arts have gone through in the last two years. It has been a significant experience.

Tom.

What I wanted to say about Creative Europe, and this is probably looking at it primarily from the more commercial sector than other slightly more subsidised arts—Creative Europe was undoubtedly a good thing and something that should support the sector, and this is, obviously, a very music-specific example—I don't think we made enough of it whilst we were members of the European Union. We did hear of people having trouble accessing it, and that may be just because the way it was designed, in some ways trying to bring some of the other member states to make their music industries maybe more aligned, like the UK one. So, not so much, necessarily, that there's a defined benefit there, but in terms of seeing that it was working properly in the way it could potentially do for the music industry, I do know that there were definitely some frustrations around that area. So, I wouldn't want it to be seen, necessarily, as a kind of panacea, at least for our sector, notwithstanding other cultural and creative arts.

Just in terms of other Brexit potentials, if you don't mind me—. One area we do annual data on is around music tourism and people coming over to the UK for gigs and festivals. Wales had £218 million to the Welsh economy generated via music tourism, and 30,000 of that was from overseas people. And that has actually increased since the pandemic.

Thirty thousand—

Thirty thousand people coming over, primarily for gigs and—

Sorry, I thought that £30,000 out of £218 million isn't what I was hoping for.

No, £218 million was the economic benefit.

I see. Yes.

Of course. Okay. So, what about the relationship with Ireland, because, clearly, it's our closest neighbour here in Wales? Evidently, there are some nuances in terms of the relationship as regards the broader Brexit context. How much of a difference have we seen in terms of that relationship, in both directions?

I can only speak on behalf of us here. I think the relationship, certainly, with the Arts Council of Ireland and Culture Ireland is more important than ever. Of course, expenditure on the arts in Ireland has gone up significantly, like other budgets, where our budgets have gone down. Many of our artists look to Ireland as somewhere that's easier for them to travel to. That's anecdotal evidence as we haven't got the data to back that up, but I do think that there is more of an interest in putting bids in to us. We run an international opportunities fund in Wales Arts International and, certainly, more applications are coming in to that, as well as for art sector grants across the UK that are run by the four nations. So, it's interesting to see that.

I think there's a specific opportunity to perhaps look at sustainability and how we travel internationally with Ireland, and perhaps to also consider whether some of the bodies and the networks that I've mentioned already could move their bases to Ireland rather than Wales because it's closer. But what is clear is that artists from Ireland are going to have many more opportunities than our artists now because it's easier to book them, it doesn't cost as much, and they're happy to take a lead on that.

In the past, the UK was the country that had the greatest advantage from Creative Europe, and we were leading more programmes than any other country. And that, of course, is something that is missed. The messages that we're receiving from other countries are quite positive, in that if there were to be an opportunity to rejoin at any point, consideration would be given to that.

Thank you. We'll move to Joel.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I know we've briefly touched upon it in other discussions that we've had here, but I wanted to talk about trading arrangements. But, if I may, Chair, I just want to ask a couple of questions, and I think the first one is probably best to Tom. I know, last year, UK Music did a survey of artists in terms of the impact—and it's purely just for my own information and curiosity, really—and I know that about 18 per cent came back and said, 'Well, actually, our income has increased since Brexit'. Why is that? Why have they benefited, then, and so many others haven't?

I think that's a very good question and I don't have a defined answer, unfortunately. I guess it's how people interpreted the question we asked. I guess, potentially, like, small—. There are people who are doing less touring. If people are instinctively not going there, then it reduces the pool, I guess, or the number of people who can actually go and perform, or work as well, because it may not necessarily be people performing; it could be crew as well. So, there will be an element of that. But, I mean, we were genuinely surprised by that outcome too, to be honest.

Yes, because, you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's probably not, but it is quite a high percentage, really—not in comparison to the 43, but—. Not the 43, the 82.

Yes.

The other one I wanted to ask, then—. I remember last year, I read an article online about the impact that artists, because of the European law about the—. It's estimated they lose up to about 40 per cent of their income from American radio, from American tours and that, because of EU laws. That sort of piqued my curiosity in terms of, like, when we talk about royalties and income from radio airplay and all that—. Has there been much impact there since leaving Brexit, then, on that sort of aspect?

I mean, they've largely been sort of unaffected because, I guess, they're kind of agreements that existed outside of—. They were negotiations done by the rights holders in the UK and, whether they're in the EU or not, they're not necessarily untangled by it. I guess there is a sort of slight complexity to it, but, in terms of that side of things, it's not changed significantly, no. One of the issues is around copyright, and there are private copying levies and the payment of that, and that's actually not something we've provided for here previously in the UK, whereas, in the EU, they did. So, I think there are some question marks around that, however.

Okay. Perfect. And then, obviously, just to go back to sort of like the trading arrangements, and on the—.

Sorry, it's a loop, so, when I speak, it's feeding back into my hearing aid and it's quite disorientating, actually, especially when I think, 'Oh, do I really sound like that?'

We all get that about our own voices—don't worry.

Okay, thanks. About the creative industries on the whole, then, have you seen much impact, then—? Were you able to quantify, prior to Brexit, the impact that it's had, I suppose, since Brexit, on the creative industries—the trading arrangements on the whole, then? It's not so much musicians, per se, but, you know, you mentioned it before, about the commercial services that weren't necessarily promoted as much as they could have been when we were in the EU.

I'll have to think about that, sorry. I mean, regulatory alignment—. There is an issue now with things like copyright and IP, particularly with the growth of things like artificial intelligence, which is a big concern to the sector. What we're seeing there is actually you're seeing laws getting into place in the EU, and there's a risk that if we don't put the same sort of protections in the UK there is a divergence, and, particularly on copyright, our existing framework is very much derived from EU law, so that is a significant challenge where that continues. So, I guess regulatory alignment with our biggest market is an issue, and, as the legislation changes, then that can only grow further apart.

Chair, I think most of the other questions were answered by the other answers.

Okay, diolch. Did either of you want to add anything to Joel's question?

Yes. I think the point around protectionism is one that is global, not just with the European Union. Visas for the States have become increasingly costly and difficult, and, of course, the cost for people to come into the UK as well, and how people come in. So, the issue of protectionism globally is one that we've got to keep our eyes open about. But I would add to that and say that the role of companies like Focus Wales, who provide platforms for emerging talent to be presenting their work internationally at places like South by Southwest and others, those are things that are becoming increasingly difficult because of visa costs and visa issues in the States. This is not just an European issue. But, yes, it's one to look at.

Okay, diolch. Are you happy? Lovely. Okay, diolch. Diolch, Joel. Looking at guidance and support, to what extent would artists and performers in the cultural sector need bespoke advice, or would you say that the needs of the guidance and advice would be different or distinct from other industries?

I think they're different and distinct even within the arts themselves, you know, because what a visual artist will need or what a gallery might need is going to be very different from what a musician needs, and whether they tour and go to multiple countries or whether they go to one venue with one piece of art. So, I think there's a need to be able to support artists but to also make it clear that that responsibility is something that we now have to take as companies, as individuals, as nations. The world is a complex place and, as you heard this morning, our artists are struggling to navigate 27 countries and the systems in 27 countries. But there is no simple way of addressing that. This is one thing that we're finding through the provision of Arts Infopoint UK. Arts Infopoint UK is set up to support international artists coming into the UK, and our companies in Wales and the UK, to support that to happen. We're very dependent on the other countries to tell us about what's going on in their own country, and, heaven forbid, when an election happens, rules change in every country. So, you know, I can understand why there is confusion, because it's complicated.

Also, we were talking to the UK Government in Westminster about trying to develop some kind of a hub, because it's really complicated, the actual information that they have on their website. It doesn't really signpost things properly, it's really confusing if you're a musician who just needs to know the basics, and it's not written in a user-friendly language. It got so far, but then they kind of lost interest after a while, which was a bit unfortunate. But, obviously, the work that you're doing is brilliant in that regard. But more bespoke data or more bespoke information being presented in a clear, accessible form, with videos, and talking to people in a language that they would understand, can only be a good thing.

I would just echo that. I think there's no one-stop shop for it all, and my experience from talking to our sector partners is that they'll go to various different sources to try and find the specific information that they need, and whether that be—. I think, in one case, they had to enlist the help of a local MP to try and understand the tax regulations in a very specific country, having gone to the various different sources. And like you said, it's complex—it's 27 countries. There's no provision for arts and culture under the agreement that the UK has with the EU, so then it's based on individual country agreements, and that's extremely complicated and very niche, like you say, depending on the type of artistry, depending on the type of equipment you're bringing.

I think less—. It's not less complicated in student mobility and youth exchange, there's still complications there, but the added complication, if you like, of instruments, of equipment and the things we've talked about—the tax levies, the carnets, the certification—that is really complex, and it will vary from sector to sector, within profession to profession within the arts sector, possibly in a more complex way than it would in other areas of the demographic that are just doing student/youth exchange or youth mobility.

But, yes, echoing that infopoint is doing a really good job, but I think it just can't cover everything.

Thank you for that. Eluned, when people come to you to ask for support and help, do you have the necessary resources available to provide that information, or are there any gaps where things are just unclear for you as well?

Well, in a way, we're still piloting this, and there is a lack of resources, certainly. The infopoint is funded by the Welsh Government and by the Arts Council England, the Arts Council of Wales and Creative Scotland. So, we have partners who are eager to collaborate. There are part-time staff working on annual contracts. There is no robustness or certainty of funding in terms of how we fund this work. It is a jigsaw of drawing on everybody's resources, but also staff resources of the councils are all going into it. The broader network internationally that I mentioned, that's very important. And also, I think there would be an interest in having resources for improving the data, because that's difficult.

I think what is working well, on a personal level, is that, once a month, there is an opportunity for people across the UK to come together to have a coffee morning and discuss and share some of their problems. So, there is co-mentoring happening through the infopoint, but there are bodies such as the Independent Society of Musicians, UK Music and the British Council and so forth, who are doing so much work that's helping and encouraging artists to work internationally.

One thing I'd like to pick up on is the international perceptions, because what we do through the infopoint is we provide an opportunity for infopoints in Germany, for example, to come in and present on how British artists could tour in Germany, and put the spotlight on some of the other countries as well. But I think that there is an issue around the fact that people are concerned about coming into the UK, and how complex and expensive it will be: will they be able to tour and will they be able to do the work? WOMEX, for example, is coming up this year in Manchester, after we had it here in Cardiff in 2013, and the perceptions are very different 11 years later to what they were back in 2013. So, I think that does need to be considered as well.

Thank you. That is—not an angle; what is 'layer' in Welsh?

Haen.

Haen. Thank you. That is a really important layer.

And in terms of how the Welsh and UK Governments gather information about the effect of all of these things that you're setting out, the effect that this is having on culture, what's your understanding of how they are doing that, and do you feed into that process of how they are gathering that information? And, if so, is your main point of contact the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism here, or the Minister for Economy, or would it tend to be that there would be some things that you'd go more to the UK Government for?

Lots of different haenau—layers—to that one question. Ruth.

I can speak from our perspective. We are a non-departmental public body, but our sponsoring department, therefore, is the Foreign Office. And so we will provide statistics and experience and insights, as and when asked by the Foreign Office, with direct relationship, and also with the Department for Education and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and also with the Cabinet Office and the Department for Business and Trade. So, largely with the UK Government. I don't feed in, we don't feed in, to the Welsh Government. We're happy to, but that would be our formal way, through our sponsoring body, and then as requested, as well as parliamentary inquiries like this that happen in Westminster that come up and that we submit evidence to. That's the way we would normally interact on those points.

Thank you. Tom.

Sure. From our perspective, similarly, our main dialogue is with DCMS and other Government departments in Westminster. There was a lot of activity after the trade and co-operation agreement came out, and a lot of meetings were set up, which did bring, I think, people from devolved administrations and Governments, and unfortunately that kind of fizzled out, I think, towards the end of that—2021, it would have been—kind of work. So, that was quite good at the time because it did sort of help co-ordination. So, I think, certainly, reintroducing something like that—.

I'd also add that we're part of something called the domestic advisory group, which I think—I know—came up in the earlier session. However, not only is Wales very under-represented on it, culture is generally too. UK Music and another organisation called Live, which represents the live sector, we're the only two cultural organisations on the domestic advisory group. So, to an extent, we can really—. It's not a Government thing, but Government administers it, it provides the secretariat, it enables the meetings to take place, and it's something that's part of the trade and co-operation agreement too, that the domestic advisory group exists. So, again, that is another channel that we have to discuss some of these issues with them.

Diolch. Diolch, Tom. I think Robin was going to ask me to ask something, but no—. Was there something we needed to check?

It would be interesting to see if they've had any contact with the FCDO.

Yes. Have you had any—? I don't know if you heard Robin there, if you've had any contact with the FCDO.

Sporadically. It's quite a hard department to really penetrate on these things. Quite often we've found that we make approaches to other departments and then all roads go back to DCMS or something like that, so it's kind of a bit—. The snakes and ladders of Whitehall.

Well, it's an extension of the metaphor that Baroness Bull used with us this morning: she was talking about a 'yellow brick road' approach to doing things sometimes.

And Eluned, what about you? Would you feed into the Deputy Minister or the Minister for Economy here or—?

This is an interesting one for us because it's complex. We're funded through the Arts Council of Wales but also through the First Minister's department, Mark Drakeford, the international relations department, and they co-fund, for example, Arts Infopoint UK, but we also work with Creative Wales, and of course the Deputy Minister for culture. So, we have a number of—

Layers again.

—layers again, and work across the UK, of course.

We set up in the period before Brexit—well, following the vote—something called the Brexit task and finish group, which never finished, and it's turned into an international liaison group. We work with the arts council in England, and the arts council of Northern Ireland and Scotland, and the Governments as well, and then the different Governments send the person that's important for them in that discussion, and we meet on a quarterly basis. It's not sufficient and adequate, but what is clear is how much information goes through some of the committees in London that doesn't reach us, where the devolved aspect of culture isn't there. So, we hear of things, for example the agreement with Germany, where nobody has represented us from Wales in those discussions.

So, I think there's work to be done on looking across who represents us on these committees, including the committee that Tom is on, because that is an important one, and the Wales Council for Voluntary Action is the only body from Wales on that, and God help us if they have to represent everybody as part of those formal discussions. There's no fairness in that at all.

No. That's not sustainable either.

No.

Thank you very much for that.

Sorry, Ruth, did you want to come back in again?

No.

No.

Thank you all for that. We'll move on now to Carolyn.

Thank you. Previously, you've mentioned access to funding programmes and networks. Wales Arts International have called for the UK to rejoin Creative Europe, so would the other panellists support this view, and what benefits would there be from joining, if that was possible, besides the financial or access to funds through that body?

Tom.

Just to my earlier answer, I'd very much support it. The kind of thing I would develop in that is trying to maybe work more closely with the music sector in how it can really present a compelling case to those making those decisions as to how we can access those funds. But it certainly would be a good thing for cultural life generally and, obviously, music has an impact on other art forms as well, and we want to see that.

As an NDPB it's not our role to advise UK Government on what to do. However, our sector partners would very much welcome that—that's been made clear across the board in Wales, but also across our networks in the EU nations. We still have a really strong network of our offices in 27 countries, and our partners are telling us that they very much miss the UK presence and the expertise that the UK brought to programmes like Creative Europe, and we've got some examples of where we're still—. We're now co-funding projects to make sure that the UK remains in some of the projects that we previously ran, and there are ways that we do that. But the loss of Creative Europe has been felt by everybody, I think, and particularly the areas of expertise, like arts and disability, that the UK brought to the table.

In terms of the benefits, we've talked about it: formal networks, informal networks, the funding loss—again, I can submit the statistics on what Wales did receive under Creative Europe—and how that relates to the rest of the UK. But, yes, the intangible elements that we talked about—. There's the bread and butter of what the British Council do, which is around connections and understanding and trust between countries and people overseas and the UK and Wales, everything from travel and insight and language and creation and innovation that comes from that, being part of those peer work networks that Wales no longer is part of. And Eluned mentioned earlier some of the networks we used to lead from Wales, and just not having those connections and how isolating that can be, as well as, obviously, the obvious funding benefits that we had through programmes like Creative Europe, but other other fundings as well, can't be underestimated from our partners. But, like I say, it's felt from both sides, both from the UK, Wales included, obviously, and then from the rest of Europe in terms of what we brought to the table.

If I may just add to that—

It must be frustrating, because you've got relations and expertise over the years, when we were a big part of Europe, and then losing that. Are there any other programmes or networks it would be a priority to join, if possible, for Wales or the UK?

Eluned.

Yes. If I can just pick up on the Creative Europe point a little bit more, it's worth noting that the budget for Creative Europe has gone up substantially in this budget round and so what we're missing out on is even greater. The other thing is that Arts Infopoint UK comes a little bit to address it, but it doesn't do any justice, really, to the network that we've lost in the form of what the Creative Europe desk was, which was based here in Wales. We seconded a member of staff from the arts council to be based at Creative Wales, and that worked alongside the media programme as well as the culture programme. Katie was invited to attend all the Creative Europe desk gatherings. When they would go to different things, we would have somebody from Wales who would feed that back to the sector applying and make the connections. When you haven't got that any more, it does reduce your ability to open those doors. So, I think that important role of having the advice on the ground here, connected to international networks—.

In terms of other networks, we are still very much active, and more active in many ways, in On the Move. We were the only members from the UK back in 2011, but by now Arts Council England have joined and the network has grown considerably, and that is a network of networks, if you like. So, there are networks like Artists at Risk Connection, who are really important with situations of war in Ukraine and so on and so forth, that we are now able to engage in conversations in a way, maybe, that we wouldn't have done before. But I would say also that every art form has its network, and more importantly, maybe, for us here in Wales as well, are networks like arts and health networks, creative learning networks, where we have a particular agenda or a focus on sustainability and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and those things. We are finding that those are actually determining new networks for us.

That's interesting. You've said that extra funding has gone in to Creative Europe this year. Is it because the EU believe that the creative arts are a bigger priority than what the UK may be thinking? Are you finding that?

It was an agreement across all of the 27 member states and it's for a period of seven years, so it's not just this year, it's for the budgeting period.

I found that with European funding when it's come through over the years—the importance of the creative industries and sense of place and communities. It really covered that side of things, and the arts.

Ruth wanted to come in.

It was just the stat on that. It's my understanding it's increased by 66 per cent to €2.44 billion.

Wow. That's worth noting.

I've got an additional statistic from a report that states that, had we not exited the EU, the UK's creative industries may have received—it says 'may have received', but it is a report of evidence—an additional €184 million. That's a British Film Institute report.

Thank you for all the data. It's really useful for us. I think that's it for my questions, Chair.

Diolch, Carolyn. I think that Eluned might want to add something as well.

I wanted to pay tribute to companies in the sector who are really taking memberships of networks seriously, such as Disability Arts Cymru, who have created a European network of their own for disability arts, and who've been really trailblazing some amazing work against the odds, funded through different—. It's by hook or by crook that people are doing it, and that is not sustainable in the long term with the bigger picture of cuts that we've got going on in Wales.

I think Tom and Ruth wanted to add final points.

My point is really about how important it is to sustain these networks. Because ultimately, the visa waiver agreements we get and other things around cultural touring agreements—these sorts of things we're calling for—will only work if people from the other side in Europe are actually calling for that as well. Given we've exited and had that settlement, you need to get people back. So, establishing new networks, I think, is incredibly key in this, too.

It was just to pick up on Eluned's point that when we were part of Creative Europe, we ran a programme called Europe Beyond Access from 2018 to 2023. It was a €2 million programme across seven countries, and it worked with the likes of Hijinx in Wales and Disability Arts Cymru. We are now not able to be a main part of that—we led the consortium—but we have chosen to be an associate partner. That means putting in money of our own to just retain that position in the programme, and try to enable that door for the UK, in an area where we're considered specialist, to be part of that programme. But it was considered groundbreaking. The evidence shows it reached 3.8 million people, and it was considered a huge success. So, to have to step back from that and not be in a lead position anymore, and actually pay to be part of the programme, is one of the case studies we've got on the impact.

Diolch. Thank you for that. We have just over a minute left and there's only a small question from Llyr at the end.

Yes, a small question, but there might be long answers. [Laughter.]

Just to close, a sentence each regarding the main changes you'd like to see in the UK-EU relationship. [Laughter.] I said that the answers would be longer than the question.

Because of our position with Government, it's a difficult one to answer. I would say what we hear about re-entry into different programmes—Creative Europe has been one, there's talk of Erasmus. I know from the sector they've talked about visa waivers, for example, to try and eliminate some of those costs. From our perspective, we have offices in all 27. We work with all 27 EU countries still, and there's a huge demand for creative education, for education for arts and culture still, and we don't have a lot of money to be able to fulfil that demand because it's classed as non-official development assistance work. So, more funding in those areas. The demand is there; it's just the way our funding works that we can't do it. And the loss of EU funds and the way we would be able to run programmes like Erasmus before has been huge. So, I think those would be my three key points.

From my perspective, on what we call a cultural touring agreement, there is an absence of agreement over the existing arrangement. It covers work permits, visas, things like cabotage, carnets, CITES, merchandise, all these kinds of issues. Having some concerted effort to actually get something achieved on those in that regard is what we're after.

I agree with all of that. Not to repeat those points, I would add maybe that there is a role for Wales and for this committee specifically to look at how Wales takes this forward, what's our relationship with Creative Europe in the UK context, but also in our own right. Also, looking at emerging artists in particular, and looking at sustainability and the well-being agenda, and seeing it as an opportunity for us to be able to give a voice to the world about what's going on here, in a way that has changed over the last five years. But that we go into a relationship that's more creative. But we need the funding and the investment to allow this to happen. There's not the investment to maintain that at present. So, we have to look at that.

Great. Thanks very much.

Thank you to the three of you for your evidence. A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check for factual accuracy. But we're really grateful to you for that session. It was very valuable for us to understand the situation. So, thank you very much to the three of you.

We'll wait to hear that we're in private session before we move on.