If I take the second part first, to our assessment, it works pretty well with Business Wales. I think that hasn't been—. They've had to be fit together; they're institutions and organisations and brands that have developed at different rates, at different times, and, necessarily, they have had to find ways of working together. The experience of our members, so far as we see it, is that there is cross-referral. I should have declared at the outset an interest: I sit on the task and finish group for Business Wales. And on that task and finish group, there is a representation from the Development Bank of Wales, and, similarly, on the Development Bank of Wales, there is a Welsh Government lead for Business Wales. So, at a strategic level, there is that cross-fertilisation. What we see less of, though, is how effective the referral between the organisations is, and I don't see—. It's very difficult for me to see the data that suggests that that's as successful as it could be. Anecdotally, we see positively where people come through Business Wales and are gated out to—sorry, are then sent to—the development bank. The challenge there is we quite often see where it has worked, and not necessarily—. We need to really push our members to tell us where it hasn't worked.
I think though we have now, through the British Business Bank—it's got a substantial footprint in Wales, a £130 million investment fund for Wales, administered through three different funding partners, fund managers, including FW Capital, which is a subsidiary of the development bank—. So, you could say that that is positive because that provides a connectivity between the development bank and the British Business Bank. Now, that I think is where we probably need to see more work. So far as I see it, in my engagement with the development bank and the British Business Bank, I think there is connection. But there will always be a separation, in that one entity is controlled and administered by UK Government strategy, and another is controlled and administered by Welsh Government strategy. So, I think our challenge to Governments is that we need to see where those join together. This committee will have heard me say it before, so forgive me, but my members shouldn't have to care about the wiring. We need to do all we can to avoid a duplication of effort. With that dispersal of business support, it is important now to look at that wiring and say, 'Is that appropriate for 2024?'
I think, though, so far as we see it at the moment, the development bank and Business Wales are working relatively well together. Business Wales is under significant pressure, its resources are more limited than they have been in the past. I know that there are those within the economic development ecosystem that think that Wales is awash is grants—it's not. There isn't a lot of grant funding. So, businesses have to be sure about why they are going for funding support from the Welsh Government, and, increasingly, the development bank will become an important part of what Business Wales is able to deliver.