Reform Bill Committee

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

We're very grateful for the opportunity to be here this morning.

As you know, we've been involved with the significant changes that have happened to elections in Wales. Could I just say that I think the UK as a whole, the UK commission as a whole, has been very interested in the reforms that have been mooted in Wales, and will have a very significant role in looking at how successful those reforms can be? I just want to say right at the beginning, for the avoidance of any doubt, that we as a commission will play our part absolutely in supporting the implementation of any changes, including the provision of support and guidance for electoral administrators and campaigners, and ensuring that voters understand how to participate within the new system.

But as regards looking at the way that these Bills have been formed, I’m going to hand over to Rhydian just with the caveat that, at every stage in every opportunity we’ve had, our relationship with Welsh Government and with the officials in Welsh Government has been excellent, both on these Bills and throughout the very difficult period of COVID, when we were trying to devise health and safety rules for the proper running of that election. So, it’s a relationship that we can build on. So, over to you, Rhydian.

Thanks, Elan. Yes, as Elan mentioned, we've got a really good working relationship with Welsh Government and we credit their approach in terms of the development of these Bills. They've been in touch with us all along, throughout the process of development. So, we had a very good idea of what would be included in the Bill before it was laid in the Senedd.

We also sit on the Welsh Government's Senedd electoral reform delivery board, which has been a really important vehicle to be able to discuss what was intended to be included in the Bill, and I understand that that body will roll forward into a formal planning group, which I think is also very positive. So, we’ll want to continue to work closely with Welsh Government, the Senedd Commission and the wider electoral community in Wales. It's not been just about including us within the process; I think we've got a good network within Wales, with electoral practitioners, political parties, and they've all been included very effectively within the process.

I'm sorry I didn’t have my mike down. I hope you understood that.

Thank you very much. We did hear it, Rhydian. We did hear you.

Can I just add—

I just want to ask Rhydian one question, if that's okay, Elan.

You said you have been working well with the Welsh Government and officials, and therefore, my assumption from that comment is that there is nothing in this Bill you didn't expect.

No, there's nothing in the Bill that we didn't expect. We think the provisions included within the Bill are deliverable by electoral administrators.

The two areas that we'd highlight, and we always highlight these areas, and I'm sure colleagues from the Wales Electoral Coordination Board and the Association of Electoral Administrators did as well, relate to timing and resourcing on timing. We always recommend that relevant legislation is in place six months before it's required to be implemented, following the Gould principle—that's a well-established principle that's understood by the wider electoral community—which allows for appropriate planning for these types of reforms. And on resourcing, obviously, the Welsh Government will need to ensure that administrators are properly supported to deliver these reforms, especially around changes to electoral management software and systems. And these are points that have been made to Welsh Government and I think it's fair to say that they've been understood.

And Elan.

Just to add. I think it's very important for us to differentiate between having a good, a really good working relationship with Welsh Government, and in any way trying to influence the policy making. I think there are two areas: policy making, which belongs to Welsh Government itself, and the practical implementation of any reform, which falls into the kind of advice that we would be giving. I think it's very important for us to note that.

Thank you for that clarification. Heledd.

Thank you very much and good morning. If I could ask you, you mentioned in your written evidence about the need for a programme of public awareness to raise awareness of the new arrangements. As we know, the Senedd Commission has a power, but no duty to do that. I'd like to have your opinion, perhaps, on who should be leading on that programme, and does that duty need to be clear through the Bill, and for the lead body to have a requirement to lead the work. And if so, which body should be doing that?

The work that has been undertaken by all the various bodies for previous elections in Wales, whether it's Welsh Government themselves, the Senedd Commission, and a range of partner bodies including Welsh local authorities, has been really, really useful. Where there has been—and I think this alludes to your point—maybe some confusion is around the co-ordination of that work. We've seen that in previous electoral events many, many moons ago, where I think the Senedd Commission would take the lead in terms of arranging and co-ordinating all of the various groups, so that we were clear that there wasn't any duplication in terms of messaging, that the organisations that were meant to be putting out a campaign relating to registration did that, the organisation that was meant to be talking about certain groups did that, and so on. We haven't seen that so much in recent years, and I think that relates to probably lots of pressures from a variety of different organisations, the wider environment, COVID. But I think it would be useful for that to be looked at in greater detail and I think the commission—as we have in the past—would welcome an opportunity to work, maybe not in leading that work, but in certainly working with the Senedd Commission, perhaps, on the overall co-ordination of messaging.

Do you have a specific view in terms of who? So, do you feel that it should be more explicit rather than left ambiguous, as it may be considered at this point?

I think it would be a good idea not to be ambiguous. It's a good idea at all times that some leadership is there. And as Rhydian has just mentioned, you have to avoid wasting money by duplicating what other people are doing. We need to be clear in the pattern of who we are trying to reach and with what pamphlet, e-mail or whatever it is—or on X. We have to co-ordinate the campaign. I think, perhaps, as the Senedd Commission is a powerful body and speaks on behalf of the Senedd as a body, they would be very suitable in taking the leadership role. But we are willing to work with anyone in that field.

I think there's an example there, perhaps, with the legislation. With the legislation, the Government is responsible for the legislation and so the Government co-ordinates the work in terms of pulling these groups together to discuss the legislation and what needs to be done and planning, and so forth. So, in terms of the Senedd elections and the work that will be needed in terms of raising awareness of the Senedd elections, well, the Senedd itself will be responsible for that, so it makes sense that they co-ordinate that and that bodies like the commission and others are part of that discussion.

Thank you very much. Evidently, you have a role to play, as you've outlined, and it's good to know that you're prepared to play that role. Is there any additional support or resources needed by the Electoral Commission, or the possibility of that, or electoral administrators to assist in the work of implementing this Bill, including promotional work?

In terms of the commission, I think the work that we will be doing will look very similar to what we've already been doing in previous elections—in 2021, for example. The focus will be on guidance, so to speak, for those who run the elections and take part in the elections—political parties and campaigners—and also, importantly, run an awareness campaign. We've done that work in the past, we know what that work looks like, but clearly, the message that's part of that campaign and part of the guidance this time is going to be different. So, there won't be additional resource, so to speak, but we will have to look in detail at what we're saying.

I think, perhaps—and Rhydian you might also agree—that getting the message out to voters is one of the main duties, because it's vital that they understand that there are fundamental changes that have happened in terms of who they elect and how they elect, and over what part of the land the election is responsible for. So, there are far-reaching changes and it's very important that we co-ordinate that with the Senedd Commission and other bodies to ensure that those messages land properly.

For example, in 2021, there were two parts to our campaign. One campaign looked at registering to vote—how to register, when to register by to be able to take part in the election. And the second part of the campaign looked at information for voters and what was happening, what they were going to receive in terms of voting papers, how to vote, and so forth. I would think that the campaign this time will be similar, but the message in terms of the voting paper, for example, will be different.

Thank you. Could I ask one final question? What impact, if any, will this Bill, the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill and the proposed legislation in terms of gender quotas have on your current five-year plan as a commission?

We'll have to look at it. The plan looks in general at how to support campaigners, political parties, candidates, and so on. Therefore, the message and the principle are going to be the same.

Jane.

Thank you very much. I don't know the answer to this, but could I ask if you were responsible for providing the information for the last Senedd when 16 and 17-year-olds could vote for the first time?

Yes. And we also took great interest in that age group, and did extensive work in trying to raise their interest in it. As you know, we're all disappointed that we can't have 95 per cent of young people taking an interest, but this is something that I think is a broad problem in society in terms of young people seeing their function in direct campaigning and protest, rather than a recognition of an electoral system. That's why I think it's vital that schools are encouraged to include the electoral systems and the reason why the electoral systems should be used as part of their education, not just in the sixth form, but before that, as the vote is there for 16-year-olds.

I think one of the problems that we have is there's slight nervousness amongst teachers, and this is completely understandable, that they're teaching politics and not teaching electoral systems, but giving a political view. Some nervousness comes into that. We have prepared extensive resources for teachers and pupils, and we will continue with that work. One of our chief officials, Ella Downing, perhaps you've come across her, is doing excellent work with young people. Perhaps Rhydian could expand on that by telling you who our partners are currently.

In terms of the last elections in 2021, the education programme had just started. It started, I think, in September, October 2020, and the work was initial work. It is more established now, and there are a lot more resources on our website, resources for young people and for educators. Elan's point is correct, educators are nervous—not all of them, but a lot of educators are nervous about talking about politics within the classroom and outwith the classroom as a result of a lot of the things that we're seeing on social media and so forth. We are undertaking a lot of sessions with them as well.

As well, we've developed an official partnership with Children in Wales. They are our youth voice partner, and the point of that programme is to bring young people across Wales together from all backgrounds, so that they can have their say on what we are doing and say whether what we're doing and the messages we're conveying are accurate and effective. That programme has just started. We're also working with the Democracy Box. So, we are confident that the programme will be more comprehensive by 2026 than it was initially in 2021.

Thank you very much, and thank you, Chair.

Perhaps I could just add, Jane, that the central board of the commission is meeting in Cardiff next Monday and Tuesday, and we will be meeting with Children in Wales and with Democracy Box during that period. I think we're going to be in the Grange Pavilion, which is also doing work with young people. So, the awareness of the need to reach out to young people is real.

Heledd, had you finished?

Yes.

Before I move on to Sarah, just one question on the conduct Order for the 2026 elections. I would just like clarification as to what you think the last date is that needs to be set to ensure that elections can go smoothly, shall we say.

That's a really good point. Thanks. The point I made earlier relating to timeliness and the Gould principle relates to all legislation, so primary and secondary legislation. So, we would expect that the conduct Order would be in place six months prior to the date of implementation, the date of poll as well, so in the autumn of 2025.

So, you think that six months is what you really need to ensure—

At least six months. I know that the Welsh Government, to be fair, are hoping that it will be before then, but at least six months is what the principle states.

It's a minimum rather than desirable.

Obviously, we are scrutinising the Bill, and we will be making a report that may well have recommendations, depending on the evidence we receive. If the Government brings forward changes, or the Senedd decides to change the systems within the Bill, is that still doable within that timescale?

As in the electoral system?

Possibly, yes.

You will have heard from the WECB and the AEA, and there are pressures there, especially given the wider environment with other Bills and Acts that are affecting their work. But from the discussions that we've had with the WECB—and again, it goes back to having a strong community in Wales that works together very well—we understand that according to current timescales, new systems will be implementable.

Okay. Sarah.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you all for being here this morning. I'm going to ask some more questions now about the electoral system and Senedd terms. It would be great if you could start by sharing your views on the extent to which the closed list proportional representation system proposed in the Bill would be familiar to voters, in your opinion.

As you're probably aware, we don't take a view on the voting systems themselves. The decision to implement a new voting system is a matter for the Senedd and for Government. Our role is really around ensuring that voters understand any new electoral system that's adopted, so that they can cast their vote in the way that's intended, and also to provide guidance to administrators.

On your point, we've seen versions of the list system in Wales previously at Assembly elections and Senedd elections—albeit within a hybrid system—and at European Parliament elections. We write a report after each election evaluating how the election was run and managed, and as part of that, we take account of voter opinion, and we haven't got any evidence to show that there was any real confusion in relation to voting within a list system, so that's not something that we're aware of; they've been able to cast their vote properly.

Okay, thank you very much—

Could I just ask one question on that, please? Sorry to interrupt, Sarah. We've had six elections in which there's been a regional closed list-type approach, but they also have been linked into a constituency first-past-the-post election. In your understanding of those six elections, have the voting public in Wales got a better understanding of the list agenda compared to the first-past-the-post? Because this is proposing just the list and no first-past-the-post. So, do people really understand the list system now, even though they've done it six times? Do they understand that, or have they just simply gone along and said, 'Oh, I'll vote X and Y, because that's the way it is'?

I think understanding has improved, and also we've seen a list system for European Parliament elections as well, although turnout was pretty low in many of those elections. I think public understanding has improved, but I think there's probably a fair bit of work to be done, especially ahead of this new election, with a focus on a list system, in actually explaining what their vote means and indeed how the individual candidates are elected as Members of the Senedd. So there's a piece of work that would need to be done around that, certainly.

I think it's a very interesting question, because first-past-the-post, of course, is not something that's linked to six elections, it's linked to all the general elections, and therefore it's very well known to the electorate, and the list system is more recent. One could argue that moving to a non-hybrid, moving to a list-only, is a simpler system to explain to people than running two systems, as it were, within the same election. So, again, I come back to effective messaging and making certain that people understand the quite substantial changes that will happen with this Bill.

Jane, did you want to come in with a small supplementary here?

Yes, thank you very much. There are great changes coming in, aren't there, and we want to ask questions about the boundaries as well. So there's this new voting system, and there's a new system regarding boundaries and new constituencies. Do you have any views or something you can tell us now that explains how you will ensure that people in Wales understand the new system? Because it is different—there will be no names, for example, if we go with this proposal in terms of closed lists. So, do you have any ideas now, just for us to understand exactly how you intend to ensure that people across Wales understand the new system? Thank you.

Well, in the past, in 2021 and 2016, what we decided on, after we talked to partners in the Senedd and the Government and on the ground, was to develop a booklet that was sent out to all households in Wales explaining what was happening—that an election was taking place on such and such a date, how to register for the election and how to vote, and a little information on the election itself. Now, a booklet isn't always the best way of developing and presenting those messages, but the problem that we had, I think, was what was the best way, if not a booklet for all households in Wales? From our perspective, we're content and we're open and we're flexible in terms of presenting these messages. Evidently, it's not just the commission that will be doing that work; there will be partners at grass-roots level that will be looking to discuss the system and the new process with their clients. Local authorities will also be looking at strategies for developing public awareness.

And there is a group now under the Wales Electoral Coordination Board, there is a group for the first time that will be looking specifically at communication. So, every communication officer from every local authority will come together to try and develop some kind of national strategy that will be rolled out by all authorities, to complement the work that the commission and the national bodies are doing. So, we have ideas, but we're also very flexible in terms of what we'll be doing and how best to present this information to voters.

And I also understand the concern, but it's important to remember, as Rhydian has said, that the Electoral Commission isn't on its own in this area. There are many bodies that have a great interest in getting the message out effectively. And amongst them, of course, are the political campaigners themselves and the political parties themselves, who perhaps have the greatest interest in getting the highest number of voters to understand the system and to be able to vote effectively. And perhaps we'll be talking to them as well, because we have a cross-party panel that meets regularly and is chaired on a rota system by one of the parties. So, that's an effective way of getting messages out there.

But what I'm most pleased about is that, in these Bills, the co-ordination board is placed on a statutory basis. We have recommended over the years that this happens and we're very pleased to see a positive response to this. We have campaigned to see the board being placed on a statutory basis, as it is in Scotland, and I think that will also be a way of co-ordinating the electoral administrators and the officials responsible for elections in the local authorities.

Sarah.

Thank you very much. So, just to move on as well—a similar line of questioning here—to your views on how the proposal to move to four-year Senedd terms would impact on the likelihood of multiple elections taking place in the same year. And if this was to happen, what mitigating action could be taken to address this, because it would obviously increase pressure on electoral administrators, parties and campaigners and voters?

If I can say, it's not in our gift to determine whether something should be four or five years. All we can do is to make certain that the messaging goes out as to which election is happening and what are the rules of that election. I'm happy to hear that there is a desire on both sides, both in Westminster and in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, for there to be a reasonable harmony about the date of the elections. The main problem for us, of course, is that, with the disappearance of the fixed-term election, the Prime Minister of the day has the right to call an election at whatever time he or she would determine, and that presents a complexity of its own. But I do understand that there has been an agreement that coinciding these dates would not be beneficial to the voter. I've had some projections done, and I think there is a risk that, in 2042, there might be a coinciding date, even without a snap election. But I hope that I will have long given up being an electoral commissioner by then. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much. That's very interesting. And then finally from me, your views on whether a system of recall for Members of the Senedd should be introduced by the Bill, and your views, really, on how this could operate in practice and who would operate it, essentially.

I think recall has worked reasonably well at a Westminster level. There have been some issues relating to the timing of recall, whether the six-week period is too long, where signing stations can be included and the number of signing stations, but generally I think recall has been something that has worked reasonably effectively. I think there are questions as to how it would be introduced for Senedd elections. For parliamentary elections, recall results in a by-election, and the individual candidate or the Member who was forced to stand down can again stand in that by-election. I know that certain members of this committee would probably have more experience of that than I will. That will be very different, because we will not presumably operate a first-past-the-post system for Senedd elections, so how would recall work for a list system? If an individual were to be recalled as a result of the petition process, would that then mean that the next candidate on the list would be moved up and elected? So, I think there are questions there, but we would be more than happy—. If this were to be something that Welsh Government and the Senedd would be interested in exploring further, we'd be more than happy to have those discussions with them. We've a responsibility to provide a report on the recall process in each one of the situations that have occurred across the UK, so we've got some recommendations and thoughts there. And if it would be useful for us to pass on a summary of those reports to the committee, we would be more than happy to do so.

I think that would be wonderful.

I'll take you up on that offer, Rhydian. We'll accept that offer. But also clarification as to whether—you just said that somebody is able to re-stand—in any recall by-elections that have been created, whether the Member has re-stood or not, as well.

Well, yes, it happened in Brecon and Radnorshire, where the Conservative Member was recalled and then stood in the by-election.

Okay.

Yes. Could I just add, about the Brecon and Radnorshire recall and by-election? From personal experience of going around the various polling stations, I think I would like you to consider whether a six-week period is too long. I think this is what Rhydian refers to when he's talking about the practicalities. And although he's put his finger on the fundamental point, which is how do you actually elect somebody when it's not a list system, possibly, any more, that's the fundamental, but the practical point is that, for a returning officer to have a six-week extended period of preparing and holding polling stations for that length of time, and having to have officials manning them—forgive the rather gendered word there—is a real ask. And especially looking at Brecon and Radnorshire, of course, it was an incredibly large constituency, and therefore a spread of polling stations had to be provided for. So, there are real practical obstacles in doing this effectively. And what we found out as well was that the most votes tended to be cast in the first week, because that is when the recall was new in people's minds, people who felt strongly were able to go out, and that actually, in the last five weeks, the amount of interest was remarkably less. So, this is just something to think about, I think, in practical terms.

But we do make recommendations relating to all these measures. There's an issue around transparency as well, but we can include that in the summary of the reports that we can provide to the committee if that would be useful.

Thank you very much for that. Sarah.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you.

Darren.

Thanks. Can I just go back, Chair, if possible, to Elan's comments about the electoral management boards? And obviously, putting those on a statutory footing, that's a positive thing that I think we've heard very positive evidence on, but one of the issues raised by the individual who chairs the board in Scotland was that the current proposal from the Welsh Government is to have that board embedded within the boundary commission, as it were—the new Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru—rather than have it as a stand-alone body that is completely independent. Do you have any views on that at all?

Personally, and I may be out of order in saying this, but I think the two bodies have very, very different remits, and I think it might lead to confusion for them to be embedded one in the other. So, my preference, personally, would be for them to be stand-alone bodies.

Tom.

Just to say, I think there's a kind of a balance on the electoral management board point, where we recognise the Welsh Government's approach, where there are considerable costs potentially to setting the management board up as a new public body, so I think it's fair to say we're kind of watching with interest as to how the independence of that will work while housed within the boundary commission. There are some kinds of legislative safeguards in the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill around what specific functions must be carried out by the electoral management board itself and not by the commission. There are some provisions around the membership, where you'd always have members of the boundary commission in the minority in terms of voting on the management board. So, there are some assurances there from Welsh Government as to the independence, and we know the Welsh Government is alive to this kind of slight concern about its independence, but I think it will be a case of almost watching and waiting. Just to note, as well, we're giving evidence on that Bill this morning as well, actually, so we'll probably—

Thanks for that.

—give some extra detail there.

Thanks for that. I just wanted to follow it up, given that Elan had raised it. And just on the four-year terms issue, obviously, we don't want to conflict with local authority elections or general elections or police and crime commissioner elections, and there's always a risk, as Elan has quite rightly pointed out, when a general election can be called at any time, but clearly, if there are four-year terms for local authority elections, which is something you refer to in your evidence, then that would be better, wouldn't it? Did you want to add anything more to that evidence that you've already submitted?

Yes. It's an interesting one, especially as the White Paper on electoral administration from last year did consult on a move back to four-year terms for local government. I think at the moment, given, as Elan said, the next sort of potential coinciding year for Senedd and local government elections is 2042, it's a case of—. It's not something that we view as an urgent problem that needs to be addressed in this Bill or other Bills currently going through this Senedd, but I think it's something that, within the next few years, it would be good if the Welsh Government, in consultation with local government as well, would kind of come to a view, I suppose, on the kind of long-term approach to local government terms. To be fair, in our written evidence there are legislative provisions to avoid a Senedd and local government election being held on the same day, even if they're scheduled to be held in the same year. But, yes, we just wanted to note that. We are on a very slow collision course to 2042, when those would be in the same year.

It would seem sensible to get it sorted in one of the two Bills currently before the Senedd, though, wouldn't it, if everybody can see it coming?

Yes. It's a little bit of a Rubik's cube, though, isn't it, because of the number of different elections, including the general election, the police and crime, local government, and the Senedd? It's a little bit like if you legislate for one you might push the other one into a problematic position. So, I know it's not very satisfactory for us to say we'll wait and see, but 20 years does seem a reasonable time to wait.

Can I turn now to the residency requirements in the Bill? Obviously, there's a desire by the Government to make sure that people who stand for election to the Senedd in Wales live in Wales, and the test of that, as far as the Bill is concerned, is to make sure that candidates are registered on an electoral roll in a Welsh constituency. Do you foresee any particular problems with that being the qualification criteria for candidacy?

The question will be how enforcement on this new disqualification would work in practice. I know there's a question of whether ROs would be required to check where candidates are registered to vote, and at what point in the process that would take place? I think the WECB and the AEA highlighted to you in their evidence that there's a long-established common-law approach of returning officers taking nomination forms at face value. So, requiring returning officers to make any kind of check would represent a significant deviation from this. As I think you allude to, what would that check look like? How would they enforce it, and at what point, and how much work would that require? We would be reluctant to see anything that forced returning officers to make those kind of checks. I think the key point is that the legal responsibility is on the candidate. There is a structure of support and guidance, including informal checks, provided by returning officers, but also support and guidance by the Electoral Commission and others. Ultimately, it's for the candidate to ensure that he or she is eligible to stand and isn't disqualified, and if that individual is unsure, then they need to take legal advice. If there's an issue, then there's a legal route to follow through the courts after the election.

Tom, you had your hand up.

Yes. Just to add, as well, that there's a separate question with these provisions around the ongoing requirement, then, for an elected member, once elected, to remain on the local government register to avoid becoming disqualified during the course of their term in office. And it's a similar question, I think, from us, as to the candidacy point that Rhydian raised. There's a question, I think, at the moment, as to how that would be monitored, and if it would be monitored how it would be enforced, and who would be responsible for doing so. And just to make clear, I suppose, from our perspective, we see that as something that if there is a monitoring role, that should be an internal process for the Senedd, almost, and certainly not for ROs, whose roles finish from the point of election onwards.

If I could re-emphasise what Rhydian and Tom were saying, I believe it would be a good thing to explore the onus on the candidate himself or herself to declare, to make a declaration, and if that has to be an annual one, or a change-of-circumstances one, it should be a declaration to the Senedd, just as any declarations of interest would be made to the Senedd. So, I think the onus has to be on the honesty and transparency of the individual candidate, otherwise you're going to set up some extra bureaucracy and costs, which would be not the object of the exercise.

Thank you for that. That's an interesting way to potentially address it, because at the moment our understanding is that there's no grace period in the Bill, so if, for example, through automatic voter registration, a Member of the Senedd is suddenly missed, for whatever reason, from the register, they would automatically be disqualified from sitting as a Member immediately, without any opportunity to correct the register or have any kind of redress system. But you're saying that if there was a declaration basis, then that would be, potentially, a better route, which is helpful.

I'm just offering it as one potential way forward.

Just on the automatic registration point, I think, obviously, it remains to be seen how that system looks in practice. We're a long way away from—. We've got pilots still to look at. I suppose, if you were a prospective candidate wanting to make sure that you didn't fall foul of anything in terms of being registered, there will still be the existing process of individual electoral registration, so you'd be able to check in advance, I suppose, that you were registered as well.

But, obviously, the role of the electoral registration officer becomes much more important if immediate disqualification comes from the publication of a register and a Member's not on it. So, there is huge burden, actually, isn't there, on the electoral registration officers to get this right, rather than the candidates to make sure that they are ordinarily resident in Wales, which, of course, is the desire.

Are there other tests, rather than being on an electoral roll, that you think might be more useful to apply? If you're paying council tax, that's a straightforward one, isn't it? If you're paying council tax in Wales and your primary residence is in Wales, you don't have to necessarily be on an electoral roll, do you?

I think, from our perspective, we've just looked at the proposals within the Bill itself, really. They seem workable. There are just a few of those questions still around how it works in practice in terms of that continuing requirement to be on the register, but we could potentially look at that, if that would be helpful.

And just one other question. There has been concern that people could be on two electoral rolls—one in England, one in Wales—because they might have a second home in Wales, and that gives them the qualification to therefore be regarded as being resident in Wales. Do you have any views on that?

Yes, as long as someone appears on the local government register in Wales, they'd be eligible to stand, as you know. But it's worth noting that applications to register to vote from a secondary address are looked at by electoral registration officers on a case-by-case basis. You must be deemed resident, as it states in the guidance, at an address in order to register to vote there.

We do provide guidance to electoral registration officers on this. So, for example, property ownership on its own isn't sufficient to establish if someone is resident at an address, and it will depend on the amount of time that an individual spends there. So, if it's useful, again, we can happily provide a copy of this guidance that's provided to electoral registration officers to the committee, so you can see what we say and what they act on.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Jane.

I want to ask questions on the boundary reviews. The first question is whether you have any views on the timetable for the constituency boundary review ahead of the 2026 Senedd election. That's the first question. And then, there's an intention to have time following the next Senedd election, before the elections in 2030. Could you just give us your views on those two steps, please?

Yes, I can come in on that. So, in terms of the timing of the 2026 review, I think, overall, it's workable, given that we're already—. We know that timescales for delivery of Senedd reform for the next election are quite tight anyway. So, I think, in an ideal world, there'd be a little bit more time there, but this is the situation we're in. The Bill, as you'll know, sets a specific deadline for the boundary commission to send its final report to Welsh Ministers by 1 April 2025. I think, from our perspective, that is workable, and there's some legal safeguards in the Bill around the Welsh Ministers having to lay that report and make regulations to give effect to those 16 constituencies as soon as is reasonably practicable.

The only thing we want to flag, and we've done so in our written evidence, is, if there is an unforeseen delay to this process, which we wouldn't expect, but if there was a delay into the summer of 2025 for that review, it does start to create some quite significant concerns for both electoral administrators in terms of planning for the delivery of an election, especially given the new cross-boundary workings that will be required across 16 larger constituencies, and then, for political parties themselves in terms of planning a campaign, arranging for candidates. So, I think the Bill as it's drafted is okay from our perspective on the timings for the initial pairing review, but we really don't want to see a delay into that summer of 2025.

And on your second question, I think, generally, on boundary reviews, it's really a matter for the Senedd and the boundary commission itself. I think the only thing we would really flag in terms of the next boundary review, ahead of the 2030 election, is that I think it would be good, as far as possible, for as much consistency as there can be in terms of constituency names and sizes from 2026-30, just in that you could have consecutive elections from 2021 to 2026 to 2030 where a voter is being asked to vote and it's a different named constituency every time, and that kind of thing. I know the Bill puts that in as a consideration for the boundary commission to consider. So, we're not expecting it to be a problem, but, just from our perspective in terms of voter awareness and confusion, it could be a decade where there's quite a lot of change for voters in terms of what the boundaries look like.

So, could I just confirm, if that's okay, that you are slightly concerned, if the timetable moves a little, that there won't be enough time, in your view, to ensure that the process is delivered for the election in 2026? You're slightly concerned—is that fair?

Yes, I would describe it as a slight concern, given that the legislation does set aside a specific date by which the boundary commission must send its report, and then those kind of secondary duties then on Welsh Ministers to lay it. So, there's nothing that could be changed on a legislative basis to plan for it; it's just a note of caution that if there was an unforeseen delay, that would cause problems in terms of delivery, yes.

Thank you very much.

I think that we've made it clear, haven't we, that we have one principle based on a minimum of six months—that that is the principle that we have as a commission.

Thank you very much. Just one other question, and we were talking about this earlier as well. We have a new system where we pair the constituencies, and that's a completely new system for us all, if truth be told, this pairing system. I just want to know again, really, if you have any ideas of how you can explain this new system to people across Wales, to make sure that they know there's a new system in terms of the boundaries. How are we going to ensure that people know exactly what's happening in terms of the pairing of constituencies?

Well, if I could say, just before Rhydian comes in with more detail, on the negative side, this is a challenge in terms of giving this message out to the voters, because it's a brand-new system. On the positive side, there's something delightful in the idea of renewing the electoral system, and it's an opportunity for us to reach out to voters and reignite some interest in the system. So, there is a negative side and a positive side to this.

Yes. The only thing I can say is the same answer as I gave you earlier, in a way. We are open in terms of how to communicate the new system in every sort of way to voters in Wales in terms of the message that's part of the campaign for voters. I think what will be important is how this work is co-ordinated on a local authority level. The co-ordination board—the new management board, as it will be at the time—. One of the best things about the co-ordination board, currently, is how they've worked at a regional and national level in terms of making sure messages are consistent. So, the new management board, I think, will be able to do a lot of work to ensure that that message is appropriate to their local audiences, and I think the communications board will be below that. There are a number of boards, I appreciate, but this new process, this new structure, will help us to get these important messages out there.

Thank you very much. Just one final question. You mentioned the local authorities and the role that they play in this picture. Who is responsible for providing information about the new system and the new boundaries to the local authorities? How are they being supported to ensure that they know about the new system, particularly when we think that the councils won't map over to the new constituencies—there will perhaps be a mixture of local authorities. Are you responsible for working with them—[Inaudible.]

Sorry. I think the responsibility will lie on the electoral management board. They will be looking at how to run the election, certainly. But there will be responsibility also in terms of communication on a local level and, as I said, under the management board, there will be a secondary board looking specifically at communication and electoral communication. That board will be responsible for ensuring that the messages, on a local level, will be broad and consistent.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd.

Darren.

I just want to turn to section 19 of the Bill, which relates to the review that is required to be conducted once the new system has been introduced. There's a timetable for the establishment of a committee—it says it should be within six months of the Senedd elections taking place. But then it sets out criteria and it says that the motion to establish the committee must look at and consider the extent to which elements of a healthy democracy are present in Wales. Now, obviously, as an Electoral Commission, you undertake reviews after every election to see how well those elections have been administered and whether there are any lessons that might be learnt. But to what extent do you think that this duty around the extent to which the elements of a healthy democracy are present in Wales is a useful term to have on the face of the Bill? And what role, more widely, do you think that you can play in helping to contribute to that review, once it takes place?

As you mentioned, we've a statutory duty to publish a report on the administration of the election for the Senedd, and that's normally published in around September, after the election has taken place. But that does really look at the experiences of electoral administrators, of campaigners, and there is some voter information data there. So, what's being suggested is sensible, and I think what's being produced by the commission currently, as set out, would assist you. But if there was something that you as a Senedd would want us to look at in greater detail to include in that report, or as a supplementary to that report—because the wider health of our democracy is quite a grand proposal, in a sense, and it encompasses many, many things—I think we can probably look at what we would want to include, within any statutory report, that would assist you or assist a new committee in doing that work.

Would it not be better to take this clause about the 'extent to which the elements of a healthy democracy are present in Wales', because of the lack of definition of what that means, and the very broad nature of it—would it not be just better to take that out of the Bill and just conduct a simple, straightforward review?

I think that would be a matter for the Senedd and for the committee. But what I'm saying is, what we would include within the report would include views of electoral practitioners, would include views of campaigners and would include views of voters as well as non-party campaigners. So, I think that those three groups are key groups in terms of determining the health of our democracy. It's a question of whether what we do currently would be enough or whether the Senedd would want us to do more as part of this piece of work.

So, just picking up on that—[Interruption.]. Pardon me, Elan. Yes.

Could I just add—? You know, we obviously use statistics on the number of people who cast their votes, the number of people who decided to register, and so there are some elements—or key performance indicators, if you want to call them that—as to what constitutes a healthy democracy. The number of people who participate, and you would be able to track that from report to report. So, rather than set it in stone as a KPI within the Bill, obviously it's a much more sophisticated way of tracking it from election to election.

And can I just pick up on the point that you made there, Rhydian, about the people that you engage in the production of your post-election reviews? Should there be a list of the key stakeholders on the Bill that the Senedd committee must engage with in its review of the implementation of these new arrangements? Voters, candidates et cetera.

I think that would be a matter for you to decide, rather than the commission providing a view on it.

Okay.

Heledd—[Inaudible.]—almost the last question.

Thank you very much. Could I ask you specifically, therefore, about the support for political parties? As you're aware, under section 12 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, the Electoral Commission is under a duty to distribute £2 million a year to political parties that are eligible. This figure hasn't increased since the Act was passed in 2000, and as you know, a party is eligible, as a criteria, if it has two Members in the House of Commons, and the funding available in Wales to develop policy also varies when there is a change in the political system in another country, such as Scotland, for example. The money went down with the emergence of the Alba party.

With the changes now, with 96 Members proposed for Wales, do you think that the arrangements here are still appropriate, and what would happen in a situation, for example, where new parties would emerge in Wales in the future, maybe Welsh Labour breaking away from the UK Labour Party—would they be closed off from having money to develop a manifesto in Wales if they didn't have representatives in Westminster? So, is this something that you're looking at, or giving consideration to in order to ensure that there is consistency in terms of the development of policy, which is also, of course, vital in terms of engaging the public in elections?

I think any similar policy in Wales would depend on funding by Welsh Government and what would be required to do. Perhaps Elan would want to come in on the more general point regarding the policy development grants, but we're open, as with other parts of the legislation that isn't in legislation, so to speak, at the moment, and perhaps it will be discussed later. We're open to have these conversations with Welsh Government if this is something that they're interested in looking into. But the point that there is a need for political parties in Wales to look at policies and at getting the message out and how to communicate with voters is a valid one.

Yes, I agree that you've given a good example, which is a challenge to everyone. But the only thing I would say is that the relationship of the commission, not only with the Welsh Government, but also with the Speaker in the House of Commons—there are ways of raising issues like this and providing a forewarning that we need to look again at the system. I can't make any pledge or commitment here, but certainly there are some anomalies within the system, as devolution evolves.

I'll ask the closing question, because I'm aware we've just gone past the time we were allocated. Obviously, the Bill is as it is, and you've given us in your evidence a clear indication as to what the role of the commission is in addressing elections here in Wales. Is there anything missing in the Bill that actually would make the work of the commission better, would allow us to actually deliver elections far more democratically and which ensures as much involvement of the voter as possible? Is there anything that the Bill misses in helping you to deliver that?

I don't think so. I think the current responsibilities bestowed upon the commission in terms of public awareness and around guidance are ample. There may be a question—. Really, my thoughts, coming from this discussion are that there may be a question around what we produce and what we include in our statutory report. Would the Senedd deem what we currently plan on including within statutory reports for Senedd elections—is that enough, or would you like to see more from us in terms of research and reporting and for it to be all-encompassing or a wider capture of public opinion and other opinion? So, there may be something there, but I don't think there's a fundamental omission there in terms of something that doesn't allow us to do our work.

And I think, Rhydian, that it would be in order for us to be asked to do more work of that kind without it necessarily being in the Bill.

Okay. Well, on that point, we've gone past our allocated time, so can I thank you all for your contributions and evidence this morning? As you know, you will receive a copy of the transcript. If you identify any factual inaccuracies, please let the clerking team know as soon as possible and we'll get them corrected. Can I thank you once again for your time this morning?

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I now propose that we take a break before our next session. So, we'll break until 10.45 a.m.