Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Good morning. I'm Ioan Matthews, chief executive of Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.

Thank you very much. And we'll go to Lisa first online.

Good morning. Lisa Mytton, strategic director, National Training Federation Wales.

Thank you very much. And we'll go to Dafydd.

Dafydd Evans, chief executive of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, but here today representing ColegauCymru. I'm former chair.

It's great to have you all with us this morning, so thank you very much. We'll move straight into questions, if that's okay with everybody. I'll ask first of all—. By the way, not all of you have to answer every question—just indicate if you want to come in on any question.

Could you tell us a little bit more than what you've sent us in evidence about how the sector that you're working in works towards the aims of Cymraeg 2050, and whether you think the targets that we have are still realistic, given what's happened recently? I can see that Dr Matthews wants to come in first.

If I could start, thank you very much for the invitation to be here, and thank you for your interest in this area. To answer your question, if we can contextualise this a little first of all, the further education and apprenticeship sectors are crucial to attaining the targets of the Welsh Government's Welsh language strategy for a number of reasons, including the fact that most of the young people who will be taking this training are likely to stay in their communities to live and work and use the Welsh language. So, it is crucial. But looking historically at the situation, these sectors are not, with some exceptions—and Dafydd is here this morning—in large parts of Wales, the provision hasn't developed much at all until relatively recently. Opportunities to study through the medium of Welsh have been few and far between.

When a review of the work of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol was undertaken some years ago—and our work originally was with universities, of course—what the coleg presented to that review was that we believed that there was a need for a long-term, ambitious plan in order to tackle this lack of development and planning historically in these sectors. The good news is, of course, that the Government in the previous Senedd had accepted that plan, and in this Senedd had began to fund it in earnest. We are therefore beginning to implement a plan to transform the situation.

Quite significant investment commenced in 2022, and there was a commitment for a further increase this year. We understand why there are budgetary challenges at the moment, and therefore understand the pressures on budgets in all areas, but also welcome the intention and the commitment to reprofile the funding that was to be provided in addition this year—next year.

The data demonstrates that we are starting from a very low point, but the data also shows that there has already been some progress and that the investment is starting to pay off. But in order to make this change a permanent one—and perhaps we can move on to some of the challenges later on—we need this funding and these resources, but also the planning and collaboration between various organisations, to build on what's been done in the past, and it needs to continue for some years to come. So that, broadly speaking, is why I think these sectors are so crucial.

Thank you very much for that. Could I ask whether Dafydd or Lisa want to come in on that? Dafydd.

Thank you. Just to endorse what Ioan was saying, I have worked in the sector for 30 years, and, certainly, since the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol took responsibility for the sector, I think there has been a much more positive approach from all colleges towards the bilingual agenda, and I think that's a very important step. Bilingualism is on the agenda of every meeting and so on now, and are within the operational plans of every organisation in Wales, and that is a very healthy thing. I'm sure that what we'll be discussing later on in this discussion will be the resources to implement this more positive approach, and how we go about that, but certainly there's been progress. But the most important thing is that we have developed a more positive approach to the challenge of introducing bilingual and Welsh education.

Thank you for that, Dafydd. Before I go to Lisa—because I know Lisa wants to come in on this as well—may I push you a little bit? Do you think that the targets within 2050 are still realistic ones?

No. If I'm being honest, although, as Ioan said, we have seen some progress, I don't think that that progress can give me confidence in saying that the targets for 2050 are achievable, because that talks about Welsh speakers, but much of the work that we're doing now, within the colleges outwith the Welsh-speaking heartlands where I operate, are far more to do with raising awareness about the existence of the language, rather than creating new Welsh speakers. If we're going to have new Welsh speakers, then I think we would need a lot more resource in the pot to reach that target.

Thank you for that, Dafydd. Lisa.

Diolch. Thank you, Delyth. From a post-16 perspective and apprenticeship perspective, I have to say I've worked with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in a personal capacity over a number of years, when I actually worked for a work-based learning provider, so really speaking from the heart in the support that they gave me. And I'm a Welsh speaker—

I'm learning Welsh.

I am learning Welsh. I'm an English speaker, but I headed up the Welsh learning section for the provider, and if it wasn't for their support, I really don't know where we'd be. We were very much walking through mud for our learners, and our staff as well. It's so critical that we have that support, and the evidence is there. Because with the coleg's support, inevitably, especially for independent training providers to have that support, and to have those additional resources, in order to provide Welsh-medium and bilingual offers for the learners, who are transitioning from school into the world of apprenticeships, we want to continue that momentum forward of continuing to use their language skills, and develop Welsh in the workplace as well. It's been a vital resource for us, I have to say, helping to not only upskill assessors—those assessors who've also got Welsh-medium backgrounds, helping them to continue to use their language skills as well—and also physical resources, as far as information technology. Prentis-iaith is one that they supported us with—we now have that for every single apprentice learner in Wales; they have Prentis-iaith. It helps to encourage Welsh in the workplace, so that bilingual element, as well as taking qualifications and their apprenticeship through the medium of Welsh, and bilingually as well. So, it certainly helps us, from an apprenticeship perspective.

Thank you very much, Lisa.

We'll move to Carolyn.

I'd just like to ask: what's the measure of a Welsh speaker? What would you define as a Welsh speaker? Is that someone you think would be comfortable speaking Welsh, or do you think a bit of Wenglish is fine as well?

That's a very good question. I think the first thing that should be said is that, when the operational plan was developed, it was quite clear from the outset that the intention was to target everybody, because everyone has the capacity and the opportunity to engage with the Welsh language in their daily lives and their studies. So, the intention of the plan is to enable all learners, even at an awareness level, to be part of the discussion, and Lisa referred to that. Of course, what needs to be done as we move forward is to ensure that there are more learners involved with the Welsh language at the higher levels, and that are confident in studying parts of their training through the medium of Welsh, and that those opportunities for them to do so are available.

I think that one of the challenges too is that, historically, there's been some ambiguity as to what exactly we mean, as you suggest in your question. Perhaps we will move to talk about the new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research later, but I think one of the opportunities for that commission is to review these definitions and to have a firm foundation in data in order to move forward. I think there are examples in the current data that are clearly inaccurate. There is data, for example, that suggests that 0.6 per cent of learners at Coleg Sir Gâr are fluent Welsh speakers. Well, that can’t be correct. There is data that nobody in Merthyr Tydfil college is a Welsh speaker. This data is clearly problematic.

So, in order to make progress—and as Dafydd said, there are challenges—if we are to build, then we do need to look in more detail at some of these definitions. But I think one fundamental point, and what’s important, is that the learner feels that they have a relationship with the Welsh language in their own personal experiences. So, the fact that the provision is nominally available doesn’t mean that the learner will take up that bilingual learning, and what we need to do is to make that bilingual element far more meaningful, I think.

Interesting. Does anybody else want to come in? Dafydd.

Perhaps an example that I would give of that is that if you went into our car mechanic course in Llangefni, you’d hear the tutor speak with students through the medium of Welsh, but they would use terminology such as ‘gearbox’, ‘steering wheel’, and so forth, as you would hear in any garage in Gwynedd where the mechanics are Welsh speaking. Now, is that a bilingual course, and so forth? I think that’s a discussion that we need to have at some point: what exactly are the expectations here, and what are the definitions, as Ioan mentioned? To me, that is an excellent experience in terms of language development, but perhaps there would be some who would feel more strongly that we should be using things such as ‘blwch gêr’ and ‘llyw’ instead of ‘steering wheel’, and I think that is a problem. On the one hand, the expectations are unclear, and also what do we expect in the context of that sort of course in terms of written work? Are we talking about a million speakers or are we focusing on Welsh language written skills also?

Saunders Lewis, I think, would—. I'm thinking of 'Cadwn y mur' and so on.

Lisa, did you want to come in on this, because it was prompted, I think, by something that you had said? So, what were your thoughts on what Carolyn had asked there?

Sorry, Chair, did you come to me then? I didn't catch the last bit.

Yes, I was just saying that—. Well, do you have any thoughts on this?

Yes, just echoing, really, what Dafydd just said, inevitably what we want to try to achieve is more learners coming through and using their Welsh language skills, as I've said, but I think we also have to take on board that bilingual offer as well, plus just culturally changing how the workplace looks, not only for the training providers but, obviously, for the learner as well, so they do see the incidental Welsh used as well. So, I think it's a package of all of these elements, really, which support the target. But, as Dafydd said, is it being fluent and producing evidence all in the Welsh medium, or is it having aspects of a little bit, because I think that would grow, then, the use of the language for everybody. Even for those, as I said, who aren't necessarily Welsh speakers, like myself, you find yourself actually using it throughout the day incidentally and it encourages you then to use it more and more. I think that is the same for our learners.

Lovely. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Carolyn.

I'm learning Welsh.

To hear that does give me confidence. I have words stuck around my house to try and remind me to remember certain words as well.

That's wonderful.

Thank you. I'd just like to ask to what extent witnesses recognise the Welsh Language Commissioner's suggestion that attempts to extend Welsh-medium and bilingual provision in the post-compulsory sector have been an uphill battle over the past decade, and there's nothing to suggest that this will change in the future, which sounds a bit dismal, doesn't it? So, just your thoughts on that, please.

We're in discussions with the commissioner, and clearly, as I said earlier, traditionally, there has been a lack of investment and a lack of development in this area, but that situation is starting to change. We've noted some of the investments that have been made over the past two years. There are 62 practitioners that have been appointed specifically in FE colleges following investment by the coleg and collaboration with individual colleges. There are 21 apprenticeship assessors that have been appointed. There are promotional grants provided in priority subjects. So, the situation is starting to change, but, as I said, we are building.

Apart from Grŵp Llandrillo Menai and Coleg Sir Gâr, generally speaking, the provision has been patchy and inadequate. The planning has been absent, if I'm honest. But, as Dafydd mentioned, there's been a change of culture. There is an opportunity now to transform the situation, and the new commission will have an important role to play in doing that. I think all the evidence presented this morning does recognise challenges, the scale of the challenge and that this is a long-term piece of work, and so that there is concern that a failure to continue with investment would slow momentum in this area.

But I do think that we need to recognise that there's a huge amount of work to be done, but there are also opportunities here. And we also need different plans for different areas of Wales in order to reflect the different linguistic contexts that exist.

Thank you. Dafydd.

I think the language commissioner recognises, in a way, that when young people move from schools through to the post-16 sector, they see themselves having grown up and with a right now to make choices, where perhaps they didn't have those choices when they were in school. And one of those choices that they wish to make is the language in which they receive their education. So, I think it's very important that we do work that promotes the language and the value of the language in the workplace, for example, so that these young people see the language as a skill.

In addition, I think there is work to be done—and I know that one of the members of this committee, Hefin David, has prepared a report an aspects of this, namely the transition from schools to colleges—and I think there is work to be done there so that we better understand the language skills of people who come into our colleges from the schools. That transition isn't effective currently, and I think that is an area where we could be much more slick so that we better understand what people's skills are coming into our colleges from schools.

Thank you, Dafydd. Lisa wanted to come in as well.

Yes, just very quickly—it was something that Ioan said and Dafydd's just pointed to it as well, but something that Ioan said. I think, for us, historically, we've seen an issue with recruitment of qualified assessors, and again going back to the coleg's support, as he said, we've had a number of work-based assessors who've been supported to be qualified in-house via the coleg's support. But also, that transition now into CTER as well is so vitally important, so there is an understanding, really, of what is needed for all provisions.

And then also, as well, going back to the geographical areas but also considering the qualifications that are delivered pan Wales, and the need for the Welsh-medium offer, we're doing well in health and social care. It's a really big qualification in apprenticeships, that we see the need there, and that's going well, I have to say, in both the bilingual and the Welsh-medium offer. But we do need support then via CTER with Qualifications Wales, et cetera, in offering more qualifications through the medium of Welsh. The new information technology digital-based qualification, such growth in Wales, and, of course, land-based qualifications as well. It's important that we're able to, yes, put the offer out there to young people, but make sure that we've got the qualifications delivered through the medium of Welsh in order to support that as well. So, they have to work hand in hand.

Lovely. Thank you very much. We'll move on to Llyr.

Good morning. Thank you very much. Ioan mentioned earlier that investment historically, perhaps, hadn't been what it should be and that that was starting to change. Of course, in this financial year now, as a result of the reprioritisation of the Government's budget, perhaps it's not changing in the way that it was foreseen earlier. So, the question, simply, is what impact will the reprioritisation of the budget have on the resources available to the coleg, of course, but mainly the impact on implementing its work programme.

Well, I think the good news is that the current level of investment will continue, and that current level of investment—. I referred to some of the new posts that have been created, in all colleges and by all apprenticeship providers. Unfortunately, there will be some plans that were proposed for this year that won't be able to happen. So, the risk is a loss of momentum and a loss of opportunity as a result of that. We have been having discussions with Government officials—in the Welsh language division, and so on—and I'd like to say that the support and the relationship with those officials is excellent, and we understand the challenges that everyone faces. What I think should be warmly welcomed is the commitment that was made in February to look at reprofiling this funding next year. In doing that, that gives us an opportunity to take a step back this year, and we intend to review the strategy, measure the impact of the strategy, and look at where we should focus our efforts as we move forward.

And also, the coleg has been designated by the Government, through the tertiary education Bill, to establish the new commission, to advise the commission on its responsibilities in relation to the Welsh language. We're in initial discussions with the commission on that at the moment, and I think that the funding provided by Government, alongside the strategic lead that the commission can provide and, I'm confident, that the commission will provide, will give us an opportunity in moving forward. So, I do think that the various organisations that have presented evidence for this morning's session are all expressing concerns in different ways about the fact that this funding that was set out for this year won't be available, and I do think that that's a concern. But I think that what's crucial is that, when the circumstances do allow, there is an opportunity to review this and to restore that funding to the budget next year.

So, there will be a losing of some momentum, won't there? It's inevitable if you're taking a step back and assessing where you are, and so on.

Any loss of resource is going to be—. There will be gaps, there will be—. An area such as construction, for example, is a key area. We're not going to be able to invest as we had intended in that area this year. That's an area where there are a large number of learners who do have Welsh language skills, and it's an important area for us to focus on. So, our hope is that we can revisit some of these issues next year.

But that will mean that the trajectory of reaching 'Cymraeg 2050' will be more challenging again, won't it?

That's the risk, and I think that the risk clearly is that, because we are starting from such a challenging place, we have so far to go. So, what we need is a plan and a trajectory, as it were, that sets out milestones for us, but any slowing down of that momentum will make that trajectory more challenging.

What, then, about some of the broader challenges within the sector that have an impact on that trajectory in a way—things such as the recruitment and retention of staff, and so on? That contributes to the challenge as well, doesn't it?

Yes. Staff shortages are one of the traditional challenges faced, and there are resources now available to appoint staff. There are some challenges in terms of recruitment. The good news is that, in the vast majority of cases, colleges have managed to find qualified staff. So, the work of transforming the workforce is crucial. We should also welcome the fact that the programmes for the training and qualification of the FE workforce have been reviewed recently, and there is a place for the Welsh language within those training structures, as we go forward, so that anyone who is training would have the Welsh language as part of that training.

There are other challenges too, because even if the educators who wish to use the Welsh language within their institutions, and even if there are staff available, there are problems with qualifications, traditionally. The good news here is that the Sharron Lusher review that was held last year has set out the importance of ensuring that any qualifications that are developed in Wales should take account of the Welsh language, and should be provided fully and meaningfully through the medium of the Welsh as well as English, from the very outset. Now, that's going to take time, because there are so many different qualifications out there. So, there is a range of challenges.

What I welcome is how institutions, colleges—Dafydd's here this morning—ColegauCymru, the senior officials there are committed to this agenda, and when the new commission does ask for plans and will set targets for colleges, that will happen in a context where they have already become a more meaningful part of that forward planning and strategic collaboration.

I also welcome the fact that there is a strategic partnership between the coleg and Qualifications Wales; there are regular meetings with them. We held an event at the Eisteddfod last year, with the then education Minister—and Dafydd was involved in that event—to set out some of the successes and some examples of what has been delivered.

And what's also to be welcomed is that many of the colleges—. The head of Bridgend College described the changes that have taken place in recent years as 'game changers' in terms of bringing the Welsh language into a sector where, traditionally, English has been the lingua franca in these contexts, and that change of culture, as Dafydd said, particularly in some parts of Wales, is going to be a challenging process, but a crucial process, I would say, over the next decades, if we are serious about expanding the use of the Welsh language.

So, just to summarise—I'm sure Dafydd and Lisa would like to add something, but before coming to them, perhaps—you foresee, for example, in the context of setting targets for colleges and so forth, a continuation of progress, but perhaps not to the extent that you would have hoped, if the intended resources had been available.

I would very much hope that we would only be facing this for a year. If it is only a year that we're talking about, then we can regain any ground that is at risk of being lost there. But any significant slowdown or withdrawal of investment in these particular sectors would be a mistake, I think, if we are serious about expanding the use of the Welsh language.

But there are a number of other things that are happening, including the establishment of the commission, and the opportunity that the commission has in its strategic plan to put the Welsh language at the heart of its national vision, that mean then, even if there are budgetary challenges from time to time, the Welsh language would be like everything else that we consider to be crucial, such as diversity and equality, and the commitment to respect the environment and so on. These are things that we adhere to, whatever budgetary challenges that we face.

Apologies, Chair, I like to talk about money. [Laughter.] So, have you had any assurances or messages from a Minister, the Government, civil servants or whoever that the reprioritisation that's happened this year is going to be reprioritised next year? Because there is a danger, and I've seen this happening in the past, that when reprioritisation happens, that's where the baseline is in moving forward. Is there any understanding that you will have—if circumstances allow?

There is a written commitment to reprofile. Our understanding is that that will happen for next year.

Thank you. Apologies to Dafydd and Lisa, I think they might want to come in now.

Right, I'll go to—. Lisa, did you want to come in now? Because I don't want to come back to you every time. I'll go to Lisa first, if that's okay, Dafydd, and then I'll come back to you.

No, no, it's okay. Yes, thanks, Delyth. Inevitably, continuity is of paramount importance for us all and, inevitably, there will be some peaks and troughs as we deal with the budgets that we are served. You know that I lobbied heavily regarding the apprenticeship budget and that cut. Fortunately, it wasn't what we thought initially, but it was still a cut, and that does impact on resources, it does impact on staff training, staff recruitment, et cetera, so then that does have that dotted line to what we can do with the learners that we have, with the resources that we need. So, I think Ioan has expressed it all, and certainly he’s expressed it on our behalf as well, so I won't add anything else to it, but just to give reassurance that, whilst it is difficult, we always endeavour to still maintain the services and the provision to learners as much as possible.

Thank you, Lisa. Dafydd.

I wanted to pick up on something that Llyr touched on, in term of the recruitment of staff. I do think, if we're to reach the challenging targets facing us, that having the right workforce in place will be key, and the workforce with the appropriate language skills. At the moment, I don't feel that there is a national strategy to create a bilingual teaching workforce across all sectors, not just the colleges, but schools as well. And I think that should be set as a challenge for the Government, and it should be a clearer one if we're going to reach the target. There's a massive problem. We have a serious problem in recruiting bilingual staff, particularly in fields such as science and engineering and those technical qualifications, because the salaries aren't attractive in the first place, and they don't attract people from any language into teaching. But if you ask for bilingual staff, that's even more difficult. So, I think that is really a challenge.

The second point I wanted to pick up was on Sharron Lusher's report. I also welcomed, and CollegesWales welcomed, Sharron Lusher's report, showing that qualifications are required that are tailored to Wales. However, I wouldn't say that I've seen great steps being taken since the publication of that report nearly a year ago to move along that path. I understand, as Ioan said, that it's perhaps a long process, but there is a need to start that process much sooner than we have at the moment.

Thank you, Dafydd. We'll move on to Tom.

Diolch yn fawr. We've spoken about the change in culture, I suppose, in terms of the cultural demand for the service provided here. But I'm curious about the provision, I guess, tying off the back of Llyr's question. Where you see that increase in demand, are you seeing that provision increase with it? Is one being outstripped by the other?

I think the strategy and the action plan—. There are a number of pillars, as we would describe them, for this, and we need to tackle all of these challenges, if truth be told. So, we need to create provision and, as has already been said, we need to generate the capacity to provide that, and we also need the qualifications in place and available through the medium of Welsh, as Dafydd said. So, the challenge is ensuring that all of these factors, all of these elements, develop alongside each other. And I do think we should note, particularly in the south-east of Wales, that the numbers and the possible audience for the provision remains relatively low, and we need to be realistic about what can be delivered in certain areas in the short-to-medium term.

But reference was made to the education workforce more generally and, of course, the proposed Welsh language education Bill, which is to be introduced in the summer, does look to transform what is offered in our schools. And I believe, assuming that that vision is delivered, and that more young people get to the age of 16 with meaningful skills in both languages, then there's a need, wherever those learners go then, whether they remain in sixth form, or if they go into the workforce, or, more importantly, if they go to colleges or to apprenticeship providers to take up vocational training, for those opportunities to be available for them. So, we are building for a future that is being moulded in a way by changes in the school sector that could emerge from the Welsh language education Bill—and there are workforce challenges in delivering those objectives too—but what we're doing at every level here is preparing for a period, as we approach 2050, when there will be more demand for Welsh language skills, and more of an audience for that provision right across the post-16 sector.

Okay, thanks. Does anybody else want to come in?

Yes, does anybody else want to come in on that? Dafydd.

Yes, perhaps just to respond to the question on supply and demand. I think you have to have an element of honesty here, in terms of saying that young people in general aren't knocking at the door shouting out for Welsh-medium education and bilingual education. We have to encourage and persuade young people to take up bilingual education. That's the reality of the situation at grass-roots level, and we have to be honest about that. And I think that we all have a role in a way in doing this promotional work, and to support them to see the opportunity as a positive one. So, I think we have to create the demand, not wait for it. That's what I would say in this context.

Did Lisa want to add anything?

Lisa, did you want to add anything?

Just agreeing, really, with what Dafydd just said. When we've actually done some analysis, speaking to our learners that are coming into our provision after transitioning from schools, even those that are Welsh speakers sometimes want to utilise English language skills. So, it's finding that balance. But what, again, we have done with the coleg is flip that to say, 'Well, actually, you've got a niche skill here by being able to speak Welsh, and how you can utilise that, and how that can help you then in your career prospects as well as you move forward.' So, that's what we've done is really flip it, and try to reiterate to a young person that it is such an advantage to them, or for others, and, certainly, with how we're looking to grow in Wales as well and have more Welsh language opportunities for people for their careers and the economy moving forward.

So, that's what we've done, but, yes, Dafydd is right, I think we have to have a sense of honesty as well, but certainly keeping that momentum going forward.

If I could add, I agree entirely that we need to be realistic about where we are now—of course we do—and those challenges are very significant, and there is a great deal of work to do in changing that culture and to influence. But that's a challenge for us all. It's also a challenge for Government, isn't it, as part of the vision to expand the use of the Welsh language. There are things that can be done structurally in terms of opportunities, but the challenge of generating the demand for those opportunities is a challenge for everyone who is concerned about a bilingual Wales as part of that vision.

It's a really interesting discussion, which I'm trying not to drill down too much into, but I'm interested in what you said earlier about Bridgend College, obviously in my region. I imagine that that sales pitch, if you like, of wanting to do those courses and that provision in Welsh is probably a bit different to somewhere where Dafydd would operate—

Yes.

—and it's about understanding, I suppose, the nuance of that. How can we better reflect that, then, in how that then drives demand, because their offer is going to be very different, I imagine, in both areas?

I would anticipate that one way in which this could develop over the next five to 10 years is that there would be a national strategic plan developed under the auspices of the commission, and the coleg would welcome the opportunity to play a central role in such a plan. And given that such a plan could be developed, there would be an expectation on any providers supported by the commission to play their part in that strategic plan. The part played by the various institutions would vary greatly and would depend, as you suggest, on geographical location and on what they have to work with in terms of learners and staff and so on.

But what I think is important is that every organisation in every part of Wales should have an opportunity to contribute to some of these developments. There are interesting developments in Coleg Gwent, for example, that not everyone, Chair, would consider to be likely. But provision has been developed in all parts of Wales already as part of this plan. But I would want to emphasise once again, and to recognise what the commissioner has said, that we are at a very early stage, but we cannot come to the view that the kind of provision made by colleges is something that should be left for the English language only, because it's so crucial, as I said at the outset, on a community level, that the learners have an opportunity, and also, as Dafydd said, are encouraged over time as we try and generate that culture shift. I think that's a challenge for us all.

Diolch yn fawr. Maybe I used the wrong word, 'demand', in the first question, because I think the discussion has shown that is probably not the right way to look at it. But in terms of measuring that—for want of a better word—demand, or unmet demand, what analysis is undertaken to understand where provision is and where it could be and where there might be a need to further it?

This brings us back to the data again, and the need to look very carefully at where we are, at what is the nature of our audience, that there is support for learners as they move through the sectors. Dafydd mentioned that transition period. We need to ensure that we know who the learners are who have Welsh language skills. We were referring there to the inaccurate data from Coleg Sir Gâr. That can't be correct. But the current processes—. Dafydd was talking about lack of confidence. We rely sometimes on learners themselves to assess what skills they have, and that is always a risk. And at the moment, the culture, to be honest—. There are so many different influences driving students to say they don't have skills or that they have few skills, sometimes even when they've been in Welsh-medium education for years. So, there is a need to look at some of these issues as a backdrop, really, to the planning and the investment that the coleg and other organisations are doing as part of the plan.

That's interesting in terms of the inferiority complex that so many people have about their own Welsh language skills. We don't have time to get into that now, but I would be interested to know how that compares with other nations. Dafydd, I think you wanted to come in at this point.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. One of the things that we've been using the funding of the coleg Cymraeg for is to move staff who would be more than happy to have a conversation with me in Welsh in the corridor but would be unwilling to use the Welsh language in the classroom and wouldn't have the confidence to do that in the classroom. So, that's been of great assistance to us in getting more staff who had the skills to teach through the Welsh language but didn't have the confidence to do so, and that's enabled us to actually enhance the offer that we have. But perhaps we're fortunate in our area that we do have those kinds of people already that perhaps aren't available in the same way in the south-east of Wales, perhaps.

It's a very similar picture for us as well. I think it is that encouragement for staff to use their Welsh language skills. As Dafydd said, you come across staff who will do it verbally and you'll be able to have conversations—even myself—and have those incidental Welsh conversations as well, but when it comes to the written element of it, the assessment of it et cetera, you find that they do take a step back and it's the encouragement that they need. With Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol over the years, though, what we've had is a resource where you're able to assess your own skills and then have the support followed through from that following the assessment.

If I can very quickly just go back and touch on data, that is vitally important. At the moment, we rely on our lifelong learning Wales record data, which really just captures if a learner is a Welsh speaker and to what sort of level they feel they're competent at. But we need to delve down more, really, to understand those learners coming in so we can understand what their needs are. We do various different assessments and we do talk to them about it, but it's encouraging that ongoing as well. So, I think data, as Ioan has already said, and Dafydd as well, is vitally important in order for us to actually evaluate impact and, then, move forward to address the needs.

Picking up on that final point you made there Lisa, which I think is important, where you've got that data around people who speak Welsh coming on to do a course, are you able to drill down into where you might have a Welsh speaker who might be doing a course in English that might be available in Welsh and what the reason is as to why they've chosen to do that course through the medium of English?

Yes, basically, we do, because it's also an aspect of what we need to undertake for our Estyn inspections as well. So, it's really that initial onboarding with the learner, talking to them about their own particular needs and skills and then trying to develop that as well. However, going back to Dafydd's honest conversation, we have had learners who have said to us, 'Well, actually, I'm in a mainly English-speaking environment, I want to utilise and develop my English language skills'. So, you're trying to find that balance. It's what I said earlier about trying to flip it and say, 'Well, actually, you've got an advantage, and in the workplace we can talk to your employer about you actually encouraging others to use incidental Welsh'. So, it's really thinking about all of those and how we can then bring that together. And it's finding a balance. What does help is, as I mentioned earlier, we have Prentis-iaith, which we now upload onto all our e-portfolios for all our learners, even English-speaking learners, to really begin that assessment from very basic needs through to somebody who is a proficient Welsh speaker, and, then, utilising that throughout their portfolio, throughout their qualification, so there's always elements of the Welsh language in it. But as Ioan and Dafydd have said, there still is a lot more work to be done to get somebody to really utilise it and use it throughout their apprenticeship.

Chair, just really quickly—apologies time-wise—one of the primary reasons you're finding that people are perhaps doing a course in English that they could otherwise do in Welsh is that—what did you say—the kind of culture of living in a more English-language environment. Are there other primary reasons you're finding?

It is one of the reasons, and I think that's where, just as a nation, as a Government, as a Welsh Language Commissioner, we need to promote this more going forward, because we do see it more. A colleague was saying in the room about having Welsh words around their kitchen and things like that; that's what it's like in my house as well. I've got two children who do speak Welsh, so I'm doing my best as well. But we need to grow that in the workplace as well, and we do. I know the centre for learning Welsh and things like that do help and we do see it. I actually live in Merthyr Tydfil, I see it through Soar here, and menter iaith and things like that that we have as well. It is being encouraged, we just need to continue that and grow it. It goes back to that continuity that we mentioned earlier. If there is an impact on funding for whatever area, then it's not going to help us; we need it to support us in order to grow it in all aspects: work, life and school.

Just very briefly, there's one thing that we can do to address some of these challenges, which is that every learner has a default opportunity, if they have Welsh language skills, to undertake part of their qualification through the medium of Welsh. In order to do that, we need to know who the learner is, and then, if they choose not to, well, that's a different challenge. But at the moment, I'm not sure that we have the structure to identify the learners and to give them the confidence and the opportunity—that default offer as we call it—and to assume that, if somebody has Welsh language skills, they wish to use those skills as part of their qualification. That is one of the things, I think, that could be part of the national plan that the commission will introduce. The challenge then, of course, is to ensure that as many learners as possible take up that opportunity. But at the moment, we expect learners perhaps to go and look for this opportunity rather than it being offered to them as a default position.

Thanks for that. I know Dafydd wants to come on this as well. If it's okay with you, we're going to run over about five minutes, so is everybody okay for us to go to 10:35 rather than finishing at 10:30? Is that okay? Dafydd wanted to add something.

Just briefly, Chair, we have held some focus groups with students, asking them, 'Why did you make this particular choice? Why didn't you choose the Welsh language option?' In addition to what has been said already, one of the things that comes up regularly is that there are inadequate teaching resources available and that the information online is available through the medium of English rather than Welsh. So, that lack of resource is seen as a very important factor.

That brings me back to the Sharron Lusher report in terms of having made-for-Wales qualifications and resources, because, currently, they're not in place. And also that we look at how technology now is developing, because of what artificial intelligence offers us in terms of responding to all of this. There may be an excellent opportunity there. I'm sure, in 10 years' time, we won't be holding this meeting in this format. We might be holograms around the table, rather than appearing on screen. That's what I would anticipate, and therefore, why shouldn't a Welsh-speaking educator be using technology to expand on a geographical basis? So, I think technology has a great part to play and I think we need to look into that.

[Inaudible.]—holograms in it.

We'll move on to Hefin.

Thank you, Chair. May I ask Ioan about the relationship between the coleg Cymraeg and CTER and how exactly it will use its influence to support the Welsh language? And what informal discussions have there been with Julie Lydon and Simon Pirotte?

I have been having informal conversations with Simon Pirotte for over a year now, since his appointment to the role, or almost a year now, and Simon did come to a meeting of the coleg Cymraeg board in Bangor the week before Easter. So, we certainly welcome the designation and the opportunity to advise, and we are in the process of discussing with the commission how that advice is to be provided.

We are in the process of agreeing a memorandum of understanding between the coleg and the commission, and our intention then, and what was discussed at our board meeting, is that we would propose initial advice on various priorities that have been identified in the previous Minister's statement on the priorities of the commission. We will provide initial advice on that in the autumn, but we do see the relationship as being a dynamic and crucial one that will evolve as time progresses.

We will also use the designation in order to discuss with partners how the ambitious advice that we will present—. Because we won't be naive and unrealistic, but we will be ambitious in terms of what needs to be done. I have to say that the discussion that we had with Simon—. And we're looking forward to having conversations with board members of the commission too, once the board is fully operational in the autumn, but those discussions have focused on the fact that there is an opportunity to transform the situation over time and to place the Welsh language in a far more central place. And I think that's the opportunity; that's how the coleg sees the situation, namely that there is an opportunity for the new commission as a regulator to emphasise to providers that the Welsh language is a core element where they are expected to attain the targets set. And that's the challenge for us all, to move from a situation where perhaps the Welsh language hasn't had that status. And the same is true of the FE and apprenticeships sector as well as the HE sector, and also sixth-form provision, which is part of that picture, and the collaboration between those different sectors will be crucial.

Well, I'm trying to understand—

Let me switch to English. Chair, I'm going to go to English. I'm trying to understand—[Interruption.] Sorry? I can't hear you, Chair.

Oh. Your Welsh is fantastic.

I was saying that your Welsh is excellent.

Well, I can't formulate questions and translate in my head at the same time. [Laughter.] I'm trying to understand, with regard to CTER, who approached who. So, you've mentioned that they need to have Welsh language as a strategic priority in post-16 education, and I've seen the magic that Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol do. You know, we had the visit to Coleg y Cymoedd in Ystrad Mynach, and I saw the incredible work you're doing there, and that did feed into the report that I wrote that was mentioned earlier. But do you feel that—? The likes of Simon and Julie, do they approach you and say, 'Look, we want the Welsh language to be a strategic priority,' or do you feel that you're going to their door and pushing that?

We should note that the Act has identified and designated the coleg to advise the commission, so the commission is duty bound to consult with the coleg. And I have to say that, from the very outset, there's been no question about this, and, in recent discussions with Simon and his officials, we have discussed the fact that the commission does want from the outset to have arrangements in place where the advice is given and is considered in earnest, and I would hope that it would be possible for us to provide advice, in consultation with others, to the commission that will be ambitious, but also realistic in terms of making progress.

So, I do feel that the board and the senior officials are very open to changing the nature of the discussion in this area and to give the Welsh language a far more central place in the planning and regulation process. And I think there's a role for the coleg to play in relation to working with colleges and providers and to encourage and support, to jointly fund and invest; the role of the commission will be about ensuring that the providers do espouse their responsibilities and strive towards targets. Sometimes targets are difficult to achieve, but if they're not achieved, then we need to know why, and we need to understand why. And therefore I think that the regulatory role of the commission will be crucially important in that regard, but I think I would emphasise that I do feel that the relationship has started on a very positive footing, and, as the commission becomes fully operational in the autumn, we will see an opportunity to work very closely as we move forward.

Finally—.

Finally—

—you've recommended the commission undertakes a review of post-16 Welsh language and bilingual data—and you've touched on this already—I would therefore assume from what you've said they're very open to doing that, and that's going to happen. It's my intention to meet with Simon and Julie myself as well, to talk about some of these things that we've discussed today, in the context of the report I wrote and some of the work that Sharron Lusher did, so the evidence you've given today is really helpful. But do you feel that, therefore, you're knocking on an open door here and that that recommendation you made, with regard to monitoring and measuring data and progress post-16, is going to happen?

The commission will—. As so much work has been done to establish a new body, the feeling that I have is that the commission and its board sees that they need to show why the new body has been established and that things will change. There's a need to look at data, and also funding, and to have funding arrangements that recognise the challenges and also reward success, and that those colleges and those providers that do succeed in providing that provision, that there are funding formulas available in relation to the Welsh language that enables that provision to continue to be offered. Because we do know that the cost of provision through the medium of Welsh, for a number of reasons—resources is one that has been referred to—the costs are higher, and that has been recognised and acknowledged in higher education. There are arrangements in place at the moment to recognise that, but those arrangements need to be reviewed. They have been reviewed quite recently in relation to the apprenticeship sector, but there's an opportunity now for the commission to look across the next few years at a number of the factors relating to these contextual areas that I think will help, in time, to root that change in investment and that culture change that we've referred to this morning.

Thank you. Dafydd or Lisa, did you want to add anything? Dafydd.

Yes. I didn't want the meeting to conclude without having said formally on behalf of ColegauCymru that we, as colleges, do believe that the relatively small investment that's been made through the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has truly been used effectively and has had an impact across the sector. Naturally, it's been challenging for them, because different colleges are in different places and need different kinds of support, and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has been sensitive to that and has listened to us, as providers, in terms of how we are eager to use the funding and to develop that. But I do think there's been a very positive impact made as a result of the investment already made and that it is crucial that that investment should increase, as has been pledged for next year, if we are to actually maintain the momentum and progress we've seen within the sector.

Lisa, was there anything you wanted to add?

Yes. Again, just to add the same as well. I think the relationship with CTER is in its infancy, but it's growing, Hefin, just for you to know—we're going to meetings, myself and CollegesWales, at the end of the month—just in all aspects, really, as we develop that, moving forward. And I think, just reiterating what Dafydd said, the help with the coleg, for us as apprenticeship providers, has ensured that we can help young people with those positive experiences and impact upon their choices, then, in taking qualifications bilingually or wholly through the medium of Welsh. So, again, we welcome this opportunity to provide written evidence to you as well, and certainly can support that as we move forward, but also to be taking part in committee, because it is so vitally important. So that strategic funding and that sustainability of that will certainly help Government's vision for more people speaking Welsh, but also young people in their opportunities as well. So, diolch, thank you for the opportunity, and thank you, Chair.

And it was a pleasure to welcome Gwenllian Griffiths, as well, to the cross-party group on universities, which CTER attended. So, you know, I have seen—I've got to back up the questions I'm asking—that anffurfiol relationship happening. So that's very positive, I think. But that's all from me, Cadeirydd.

Okay. Thank you very much. So, on that note, may I thank all our witnesses for their evidence this morning? There will be a transcript of what has been said this morning sent to you to ensure that it's factually accurate. Perhaps we'd like to follow up some things with you in writing, but thank you very much for your time this morning; we really do appreciate it. Thank you to the three of you.

And thank you for your interest.

Thank you, everybody. Members, we'll now take a short break of five minutes and we'll restart at 10:40. We'll just wait to hear that we're in private session.