Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. I'd like to welcome you all to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. It is very nice to be back, but I would like to thank Llyr Gruffydd for his contribution and for his scrutiny in his time on this committee, and to wish him well in his new duties. I would also like to welcome Jenny Rathbone, who is with us today substituting for Lee Waters, and also Luke Fletcher, who is substituting for Delyth Jewell. We have obviously received apologies from them. Are there any declarations of interest this morning, please? No.

We will move on to item 2, where we have a scrutiny session with the First Minister of Wales on international relations. Could I welcome you this morning? Good morning. And could I ask you please to introduce yourselves for the record?

Bore da. I'm Vaughan Gething, First Minister, and to my left is Andrew Gwatkin, director of international relations.

We have quite a few questions to go through this morning, so the first question is from me—

Sorry, my translation has stopped working. Maybe it's my device.

Could we try—? Is it working now?

No.

Can we test—?

I can understand what you're saying without it, but I'd like to understand it a little bit better.

Is it working for you now? Great. We will start, therefore. The first question from me: could you outline your international priorities?

Our international priorities remain as set out in the international strategy. We have a range of opportunities to raise our profile, to help grow our economy through international relations, but also to continue to behave as a globally responsible nation. And all those things add in together. So, there is continued international interest in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. There's continued interest in a range of our internal policy achievements. So, the fact that we are now the second-best recycling nation in the world is something that other parts of the world have noticed, and they're looking to see how we've done that, and over the time to do that as well. We have all the points about raising our profile internationally in terms of culture, language, sport, soft power. Our ongoing educational engagement is part of that, as well as part of our economic story as well. And a key part of international relationships are about our economic opportunities, both to see Welsh exporters, as well as for inward investment. And so we're looking to undertake that through deliberate programmed activity. So, we have not just an exporters programme of activity, but the way in which we focus on different parts of the world in our 'Wales in...' years activity programme as well. So, all those things are about trying to build strategic relationships through the year, but they all go back to those three main priorities in the international strategy: raising the profile of Wales, growing the economy, and continuing to demonstrate leadership as a globally responsible nation.

Thank you. Obviously, you have been involved in many overseas visits in your previous roles. But as the First Minister now, what's your pitch for Wales when you meet people internationally? How do you summarise what Wales has to offer?

It still goes back to a number of the things that we've talked about. And I think, when you look at the UK as a whole, the fact that we're a state with nations within it is unusual for other parts of the world, but, actually, there are many parts of the world that recognise that as well—where there are nations within nations. And I think that's a strength, actually. And one of the things that I've recognised, not just as the economy Minister, but in this role as well, is the fact that we have cultural similarities but also cultural differences with the rest of the UK is a real plus for us—it makes us interesting and distinct, and that isn't a burden. So, the language is an obvious part of that as well. So, other parts of the world are interested in the fact that we have more than one language, and that shouldn't surprise us, because many other parts of the world have more than one language within them as well.

So, those distinct parts, but also I'm trying to get away from us almost apologising at the outset that we're a small country. We need to be much better, I think, in our pitch, which is what I do in saying, 'Wales has lots to offer. Look at all the things that we already do, and our ambitions for the future'. So, yes, we're proud, and we'll continue to position ourselves in terms of culture, language and sport. But actually, the pitch is, 'This is a nation with a great history—the landscape and the architecture we have. But actually, look at where we are today, and where we want to be in the future'. And so, the point about global responsibility really does matter. Lots of nations are interested in that.

There's the fact that we have, because of our geography, a significant opportunity in renewable energy—and lots of other parts of the world are looking at that too. And interestingly, lots of parts of mainland Europe are looking at that as well. So, not every part of Europe has a coastline that is ripe for renewable power generation. We do. Other parts of Europe that are significant economies and don't have the same renewable energy generation potential are interested in what we are looking to do to exploit that. Other countries with similar coastal opportunities are, again, wanting to learn from us what we are doing as well. And those countries that don't think they have the same opportunities for power generation, for example, are interested in whether we want to be exporters of energy as well—for economic purposes too.

So, there's a whole range of things. I think the challenge would be going in and saying that the single pitch is this is a country with a great history, but also a great future; we're a globally responsible nation, and we have lots to offer other parts of the world, and we're still keen to carry on learning. And then you get into the broader part of it. So, that was exactly part of the conversation I had with the European Union ambassador when he was here last week. I met him with the ambassador for Austria and the ambassador for Cyprus. They were interested in all aspects of what I've just described, and more. So, there is not just one thing, but that's the simple pitch: great history, great future, and we're really proud of being distinct, as well as being part of Britain and wider Europe.

Thank you, First Minister. Could I bring Alun Davies in, please?

Thank you. I very much like what you've been saying, First Minister. I think that that very positive, outward-looking approach is really important. I will say that myself and the Chair had dinner with the EU ambassador last week, and we had long conversations, with a number of different diplomatic representatives, shall we say, over a period of time. And, of course, one of the things they say to us is about language learning in Wales—that the teaching of foreign languages is falling, and that's a major issue for us. And at the same time, you've majored, in that first response, on the importance of culture. Therefore, in the conversation we had at First Minister's questions yesterday about the future of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, the junior conservatoire, and then the Welsh National Opera, they're also central to our ability to actually project or be the country that you describe. So, international relationships, international affairs and the international element of policy actually is not simply a compartmentalised, individual, single area; it's something that permeates the whole of Government. And I'm interested as to how you, as a First Minister, speak to other Ministers about the importance of their work in terms of what is Wales internationally.

Some of it comes back to the strategy and the work I know the committee's done on what a refresh might look like as well, because that, again, does rehighlight the fact that there's a wider whole to this. Because you picked culture, but you could pick pretty much any area and see an international link to it. I know you've recently been to New Tredegar—

No, no, Tredegar. New Tredegar is in Rhymney.

But New Tredegar in America, and understanding the links with historic Tredegar, rather, as well. So, in every area, you can see a link. There are lots of Welsh place names around the world, there's history, but the point I make is, actually, it's not just about the history, it's about the future, and in any area of policy you can see that.

Some of that is about how the international team works, and the relationship, so that Andrew and the team aren't compartmentalising one part of the Government in an ever-decreasing circle on their own, and that there's a direct engagement with a range of other people. So, in the economy division, there's all the work they do on the exporter programme as well, and understanding where we're going and why, understanding the interests that those other people have in what Wales is today. There's the international learning programmes we have, and everyone sees the value and the benefit of those across the education team. So, the reality is we're an interconnected country in an interconnected world, and in being proud to be outwardly European looking and globally looking, you can't simply say it's one part of the Government that is part of this.

Ministers regularly get asked to go and do things overseas, and you'll recall from your time in the Government there are lots of opportunities to travel. The challenge is being clear about where the advantage is for dealing with that engagement and also the balance of needing to do the job here as well. So, I think any Minister would be able to point to international parts of their work. The issue is how we try and have that as a more coherent whole.

I'm grateful to you, First Minister. You mentioned my visit to the United States;' I would like, through you, to thank Andrew and his team for the help and support they gave me there. And you mentioned the work of Ministers; it's as individual Members as well. I could not have achieved what I did on that visit without the help and support of the team in the embassy in Washington. Zowie and Eoghan were fantastic in providing contacts, helping with some of the logistics, but also providing the briefings to enable us to actually understand what is happening and what the Welsh team are doing there, so that, when you are speaking to, for example, members of the Virginia State Capitol, you actually understand the background to that in a way that would've been difficult had the Welsh Government not had an office in Washington and were that office not able to support us. I think that's a really important way of moving forward. So, I'm grateful to you for that, and I wanted to put that on the record.

You mentioned the conversation you had last week with the EU ambassador. We're entering, and we are in the middle of, a period of change, of course, with the European elections taking place earlier this month, the UK general election taking place in two weeks, and then we're looking forward to refreshing and renewing relationships with the EU. My view is probably somewhat different to that of others, but how would you want to see the review of, for example, the trade and co-operation agreement being an opportunity to deepen and expand and strengthen Wales's place in the institutions now in terms of the relationship between the UK and the EU, and then moving forward to use that new potential position to actually improve and increase Wales's profile within the institutions of the EU?

Thank you for what you said about the office in the United States. I'm very pleased that's on the record and we'll make sure we point that out to the team. Thank you for saying that. It does matter, I think, that people say, 'Thank you' when they're being helped, and it's very good to hear about your positive experience.

You're right about the period of significant change in our relationship with Europe, not just with the EU elections and the rise, in lots but not every country, of the populist far right. The elections taking place in France as well, and that will have a major impact. France is the third largest EU country that we trade with after Germany and Ireland. So, it's a major economic as well as cultural relationship for us as well. And the UK general election and the review of the TCA come at an opportune time, I think, because I am keen that we deepen our relationships and recognise the practical nature of them as well.

So, in the institutional review, part of our challenge is that the way the current UK Government has operated hasn't really been to engage us in the way that we would want to have been engaged in every single area. We've essentially been observers for some official-to-official conversations. I think we can go back to, and again turning to your experience when you were a Minister, when, actually, devolved nation Ministers were part of a conversation about determining the UK position. I think that's a rational way to approach this, and it would make sure that the conversations we have are of value rather than being told what the UK position is and being allowed to sit in as observers. So, I made the decision, when I was the economy Minister, that it was not a good use of my time to sit and observe a meeting that I wasn't going to be able to participate in. I think that relationship should change and our engagement with institutions. Even under the current Government, the associate membership in Horizon gives us another route in to really productive relationships for us and the rest of Europe. Ireland are very keen for us to carry on having relationships as well. And in terms of the review of the TCA, one of our top priorities will be to try and get a veterinary agreement.

It would make a significant difference on a number of fronts, and these are practical steps forward that will positively change the relationship in how we engage in European institutions. So, I'm keen to see whoever is the new Government of the UK wanting to have that approach with all Governments around the UK. And I think that would be better for Wales and indeed the UK too.

If I may—Carolyn's asked to come in—can I ask for brevity of questions and responses given? We have a lot to get through by 10.30 a.m. Do you have a few minutes, since we were a little late starting, if we do overrun by about three minutes?

Yes, yes, we can stay for three extra minutes. I'm sure I can manage that. I'll just walk faster. [Laughter.]

I was interested to hear, just now, what you said, because the previous First Minister said that, when he attended meetings, a member of the UK Government had to be present, and he wasn't able to speak for Wales, in a way. And it really worried me that we can't grow our own links, internationally, which is really important.

During COVID, I think it was the first time that people realised that Wales had devolved powers and that Welsh Government could make its own decisions for Wales. This revelation was amazing. Earlier, you said about Wales leading in waste and recycling, and we heard yesterday that there is a seminar taking place later in the year, which is fantastic, where other countries will come and hear about what Wales is doing. So, how do you promote this, what Wales is doing? Because I think it will grow this sense of pride in Wales, the sense of culture, and then grow the Welsh language as well, wanting to learn the Welsh language, and it all leads on to another.

I think COVID really did raise Wales's profile. It was an extraordinary time for all of us, not just seeing the UK media paying more attention to devolved relationships, but there was a fairly surprising amount of international media interested in talking to myself and the former First Minister about what we were doing and why.

And then moving into our relationships, actually, large parts of Europe are aware of what we're doing on a whole range of areas. I think the challenge is that I don't think in Wales we always appreciate how interested the rest of the world is already in us. I come back to my starting point—I think we talk ourselves down far too much. The rest of the world is a good deal more interested and aware of what we're doing. I want to carry on raising that awareness and the distinctiveness of what we're doing in having a language that we want to carry on growing and having two national languages is of real interest around the world. The Irish Government are very interested. Their approach on language is really quite different. They, I think, look on us with some positive envy about what we're doing with the Welsh language, as well as the English language in Wales as well.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you. If I can bring Alun in, because you're moving on to Ireland.

Yes, I just wanted to complete the conversation on EU matters before moving on to Ireland. The previous First Minister was—without wishing to put words in his mouth—not persuaded, shall we say, of the need to deliver and develop a specific EU strategy. I was wondering what your position would be on that. And, secondly, with the review of the TCA coming up next year, whether the Welsh Government is beginning preparations to participate in that review. And if you are beginning preparations, what is the position—the starting position, if you like—of that work?

So, on the EU strategy, I share the view of the former First Minister; we don't need a specific EU strategy. It's really clearly set out in our international strategy. We're a European country, we need to have a continued relationship with the European Union on a whole range of fronts, and we do. And the good news—this goes under the TCA—is that there's an appetite for more engagement with Wales and the UK. I think, even with the current UK Government, there's been a thawing in relationships. The Windsor framework did mark a step forward and an ending of all the problems that exist on the other side of the fence. But, actually, we've got to be able to have a conversation.

So, our starting point with the TCA review is not just looking at the governance structures, but looking to understand the approach that whoever the new UK Government is wants to take around the TCA, and we want to see barriers to trade removed. There are some specific points about movement as well. So, probably the most well-advertised one is about touring artists and the creative sector. It's a real issue and a real barrier. But also in, if you like, standard manufacturing businesses that are international. So, international businesses find it difficult to move people between sites. And often you need to do that to share knowledge, to trouble-shoot and to improve. So, actually, there are some practical things that I think we could get behind that I think would make a real difference for Wales, as well as other parts of the EU.

I've mentioned already the points around a veterinary agreement. There's more we can do on animal health. As we get closer to the formal TCA review, where there is information we can share, we'll do so with the committee. It may make sense, as we're going through the first round of the TCA—if the committee's still interested—to have a technical briefing with officials about the work. That might both allow us to move on with time today, but also to give a more in-depth view for the committee on what we're looking to do.

I think the committee would appreciate that—

Yes.

Okay.

—offer, and I'm grateful to you for it. In order to move things on, one of the countries, of course, that we do have a very well-formed relationship and agreement with is with the Republic of Ireland. And the committee visited Ireland last year and the committee's taken evidence on this, and it was a very positive report from the committee, I think, and a very positive response, both from Welsh Government and from the Irish Government, in terms of taking things forward.

So, the question, then, is: what happens next? We've built the foundations, if you like. We're two countries that have known each other for 2,000 years. We've sat here and we've shared a history and all the rest of it. But how do we reinvent the statement of shared values that we have at the moment—shared statement—and how do we ensure that has a practical application, beyond simply the role of Governments?

So, we were due to have the forum in June. Then the general election happened and that's not been possible to do. So, we're looking and hoping to rearrange the ministerial forum for the autumn, and that meeting will be where we—in the run-up and through it—will look ahead to the next stage in the shared relationship. So, I'm interested in the forum and the priorities for Wales and Ireland and how they get taken forward.

Now, there are two issues around that. The first is that we have our own elections in 2026, so we're looking to have a strategy that has some buy-in about what we're looking to do. I actually think that should be possible to do; I don't think this is politically controversial between different parties here. One of the things we do need to be aware of, though, is that there will be an Irish general election by spring 2025 at the latest. And so the Tánaiste still leads on the relationship. The Deputy Prime Minister—the Tánaiste—leads on the relationship. So, I'm looking to agree on how we take matters forward, with a refresh to go into, if you like, the next phase that would be from 2026 to 2030, but to be centred around what they can agree ahead of their own set of elections. And as we're doing that, again, I'm very happy for the committee to be engaged in what we're looking to do and where we end up with the Tánaiste. I think, if the forum happens in the autumn, then we'll both be able to look at what we've done as well as setting out what we would hope to do. And I hope we can agree the main parts of what that refresh will look like ahead of their own election and then, obviously, I hope that whoever is the incoming administration after their own elections will be happy to carry on that work with us.

May I just ask: the former First Minister accepted our recommendation to review our inquiry's evidence to inform those discussions for the refresh of the strategy, so have you been able to consider what lessons that you're considering taking forward from our evidence?

Yes, I'll ask Andrew to come in on some of the detail, but we have thought about what the committee have said and it goes into the work that we're doing. On the challenges, we still need to talk through that with the Tánaiste about how that then goes into the wider Irish Government. But, Andrew, do you want to take this given that you've been in the conversation, and our Dublin office have obviously been part of this as well?

Yes, of course, and one of the recommendations was more engagement, absolutely—to take on board. We regularly have dialogue with officials in Ireland and we have another one in July, which is a bit of a staging post ready for the forum itself in the autumn. But that wider engagement, absolutely, and in that respect, we work very closely with our partners, Wales Arts International, the Urdd et cetera, so all of that engagement, both within Wales and in Ireland, is very important.

The committee also talked about raising the profile of the shared statement—absolutely. That's something we seek to do through everything that we seek and take forward, and we absolutely accept that and wish to do more. The more that we can publicise the existence of the shared statement and that very special relationship, the more that we can achieve from it, and so, absolutely, it's within all of our interests to do so, and, as I said, also with our strategic partners—so, very much that collaborative approach, setting out with them what are the priorities. That will help us inform the discussions as well when we're looking to the content for the next shared statement and joint action plan.

Perhaps you can provide an update for us—

Of course, yes.

—in terms of the recommendations and the work taken forward. Do you want to come in—?

That might be helpful around the October forum—it will have more practical things to tell you rather than a fairly dry update. I think there'll be something of real meat when it comes to the forum, assuming that we can agree dates. And it would be in Ireland in the autumn as well.

Okay. One of the recommendations was around the engagement of Senedd Members, not just members of the Cabinet as well, so I think there would be an interest to know in terms of that. Sorry, Carolyn, did you want to come in?

Yes, it was just a comment on that. When we met with parliamentarians in Ireland, some of the them were unaware of the shared statement. So, I think it's really important to include parliamentarians as well. Thank you.

Yes, diolch. If I can bring Jenny Rathbone in now.

Thank you. I just wanted to move on to the Israel-Gaza conflict, which has dominated our screens for the last eight months. The Senedd was one of the first Parliaments to agree to call for an immediate ceasefire, but, tragically, a sustainable ceasefire has, so far, eluded us all. If and when the UK Disasters Emergency Committee is able to launch that long-awaited appeal to relieve the suffering of civilians, can you confirm that the Welsh Government is minded to give a substantial contribution to that appeal?

And, secondly, I wondered if the Welsh Government has given any consideration to benefits in kind that it might be prepared to contribute, given our reduced budget on international affairs. For example, our expertise in the construction of zero-carbon homes, which are obviously going to be massively needed?

Well, I think you're right on both points, Jenny, that is that if the Disasters Emergency Committee launch an appeal, then we would expect to contribute. I'd have to be clear about needing to understand our budget position at the time in terms of what we could deliver. But there's more than cash and some of that will depend on what reconstruction and support looks like as well, and which partners you get to work with to do that. But in a range of areas, we've provided benefits in kind that aren't always about money—sometimes it's about equipment, sometimes it's about expertise. So, I'd want to look at what we can do in a positive way. And this all comes back to when there is a period in time when we're able to do that, because at the moment, there isn't a permanent or sustainable ceasefire. We know the issues about not getting enough aid in to the humanitarian crisis that unfolds before us. And we know that there are people who are still hostages. So, all of those things are very real challenges and we see them in lots of constituencies and regions across Wales where people have direct family, community and friendship links, so I look forward to having the opportunity to help in reconstruction and support. I look forward to Wales being a positive voice in wanting peace, and a sustainable peace, for all sides.

So, have you had any opportunity to do any background work? Clearly, the immediate need is for the relief of famine, but, just trying to rebuild a peaceful two-state solution, have you had any detailed conversations with Cardiff University or other organisations who have this know-how to make them ready for making a contribution as soon as it is possible to do so?

No, I personally haven't had a detailed conversation of the type that you're referring to. The lead on these when it is of course a UK Government issue—. We want to be positive and constructive in what we can do, and that's the way in which I approach these matters and the Government would approach these matters. We've engaged with the representatives of the Palestinian Authority and Andrew has met people on all sides as well. We will engage with people from the Israeli Government in the UK as well. Our interest is in a sustainable peace, and I think that only comes from having two sovereign, safe and secure states that recognise it's in their interests to live side by side.

I think the message in that matters as well. The practical steps will still come from when I'll be able to do that, how the UK is engaging directly and how we then engage as a constructive part of that, rather than looking to design an entirely separate route. I know that's not what you're suggesting, but I want us to have a coherent approach to what we're able to do, and equally to recognise our supportive role in this, rather than acting as if I'm actually, potentially, David Lammy as the Secretary of State in the Foreign Office. We've got to think about how we do that constructively together, and that's my interest, because I know there are people directly affected by the conflict—not just us, who look at it and care about what we see, but people with a much greater direct engagement in a way that I know is deeply, deeply distressing.

Okay. Well, Wales has relations with Dubai and Doha. That's in your infographic, so is that not a conversation that could be had? These are both countries that are not short of capital, but we may be able to make other contributions, and it's about how we can marshal that reasonably quickly once we've got a stable situation.

I think needing to have an international coalition of goodwill is really important for the future, and it's also about how those relationships take place in a way that is respectful, rather than countries not from the region trying to take a leadership role in a way that may not be well received. So, I think we've got to have some sensitivity on all sides, and, actually, Dubai and Doha have been centres of actually trying to get people into conversations to mediate. Now, they of course have capital, but you've got to have the ability to invest that capital in a way in which the authorities running the territory want that to be done. Now, you have a challenge over who is actually in charge, the nature of the authority that exists, and that still comes back to what peace will look like. So, we need to get to that point. But that's why the aid is the first thing, because you need to make sure that people are able to get through the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding, and then to get to what the long-term goal is—and I wish it was not quite so long-term—but to get to the point where there really are two safe, sovereign states living alongside each other.

Now, that's been the position of parties—plural—across the UK. It's the position of the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and I don't see that position changing with the general election. It's how we're going to be on the side of bringing people to that answer sooner rather than later, and recognising that we, as we sit down today, are not in control of what is happening in Gaza and we have limited influence over the Government of Israel. It's a point I've made, and in conversations I've had with Jewish communities here in Wales, that we all need to understand and recognise that the Government of the country doesn't always enjoy the undiluted support of its population, and, before the conflict, there were large demonstrations against the Government of Israel, in exactly the same way as we're going through an election in the UK, and lots of people in the UK don't see the current Government as being reflective of every view within the country. The way that we engage with the Government and with people matters, and I want us to be on the right side of getting people to do the right thing. I know that might not give you everything that you want in the answer, but I'm trying to be reflective and not to get myself in a position where the Welsh Government is no longer able to be a straight dealer in all of this, and to recognise, as I say, the very real harm that it causes to citizens of our own country.

Thank you. Jenny, do you—?

No, that's fine.

If I may, you'll be aware that the international development budget was cut by 17.6 per cent for 2024-25. What impact, if any, has this had on the Welsh Government's ability to donate to funds such as DEC, which was referenced by Jenny Rathbone?

Well, any reductions mean that we have less money to do any of our work, whether it's the strategy we've committed to—

But specifically on this, in terms of being able to—

I'm answering the question. And it also would affect our ability to provide money to this or any other DEC appeal. What I can't tell you is is there a pounds, shillings and pence answer that says, 'It will this mean this and not that,' because we've got to actually understand where we are within the budgets we have. We don't know when an appeal might be launched. So, the honest truth is it will affect our ability, but I couldn't tell you how much or when, and that's because we don't yet know when a DEC appeal will be launched as well. That is part of the wider reality of our budgetary position.

May I ask—? Within your international work, obviously, there are Welsh citizens, as you've referenced, impacted by what's happening internationally here, many who have relatives caught up, in both Israel and Gaza—are you providing support to those families here in Wales? Do you see that as part of your international strategy here in Wales as well?

It's not just international strategy. If you remember the questions we've had in the Chamber about some named families that I know that Alun Davies and Peredur have referenced, for example, in the Chamber, it is about how we act together, because the primary start of that help and support is actually wanting to see help and support for their family members in the middle east, and, actually, that is led by the UK Government. So, it's actually about how we work together on that, rather than saying, 'This is the international strategy.' You've got to be responsive to how citizens want to be supported. Sometimes, that is hearing the fact that we are bothered and we've noticed; sometimes, it is practical, and, in working through what is practical, you have to understand what that family or families need and want and how you work together on doing that. So, I don't think you can wrap that up into the international strategy, but it's a part of the fact that we're an interconnected world. Sometimes, that'll affect our domestic responsibilities, and other times it will be directly about the international work we do in this or any other country.

Thank you. I know, before we move on to Carolyn Thomas, Luke Fletcher wanted to come in quickly.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Very quickly from me, one of the families that were affected by the October attacks literally lives around the corner from me, and one of the points that they raised was that there was little correspondence between themselves and Welsh Government and UK Government until, of course, they started banging the drum. So, one thing I would be really interested in just getting an understanding of is, when situations like this arise, when these international disasters happen, how does the Foreign Office give information to Welsh Government, and then, how, potentially, could then Welsh Government move that information on, where relevant, to local Members of the Senedd or otherwise so that we can all wrap around that support, as it were?

I think part of the challenge is—. Look, this is a relationship that is led by the UK Government, in terms of foreign affairs and consular support of the type—. So, in the situation we're talking about, it would be consular support that would be provided for those families. So, the lead relationship is UK Government, and it would be UK Members of Parliament, of whatever shade they happen to be. It's the UK parliamentary Member who'd likely be the lead. But, actually, lots of that then quickly gets into, if there's a need to support people here, you can't see how devolved agencies wouldn't be engaged and involved. Lots of this would be local government or the third sector. So, there is a need for a practical partner, and that really is about relationships as well as structure.

So, with the Foreign Office, there is some sharing of information, so there are times when we find out and are told if there are Welsh citizens who are engaged and involved. It still comes back, though, to the individual awareness of who they are. Actually, to be fair, in this instance, I know that the constituency Member in the UK Parliament has that engagement with their constituency colleague here, and that's then about how they support people, and then there are all the additional relationships that exist as well, because there are people who know them from outside the constituency or the region as well.

The challenge, I think, always is: where does the awareness come from and then how do we something that is genuinely helpful for that person and their family? And that won't always be perfect, because the relationship will be different in different circumstances for the family and how they feel about communities, and who they'll want to have the conversation with as well. So, this isn't saying, 'The Senedd must always be engaged and involved', because that might not be what that person wants. But where, actually, there is a role for us to play, we should be willing and want to do that and want be part of the conversation, and that's the way that I want to see relationships between the Welsh Government and the Foreign Office and other agencies work. Because the longer term support will undoubtedly engage our responsibilities as well.

Thank you. If we can move on to Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you. I'm really pleased to have this conversation today about helping in Gaza. We met with Ukrainian aid workers who were saying about having some equipment that we don't use in health and I just wondered how those channels are actually achieved to get that. But I will move on to my question, sorry.

Thank you.

Okay.

So, before, we talked about refreshing the shared statement, are you looking to refresh the international strategy as well—it expires next year—you know, for the final year of Government? If so, please could you involve us as a committee as well, going forward? Just your views on that, please.

Okay. So, on the broader point of what happens if we have equipment that is surplus, then, yes, we do think about it; we've done that on a number of occasions, actually. So, I signed off on fire trucks going to Ukraine and there are a range of other things; there are examples around the world of where that's happening. So, yes, we do that.

You do that. That's great. Thank you.

On your point about refreshing the international strategy, through the summer, I've already had a conversation with Andrew and the team on examining options for a refresh. And that will look at the departments that are most likely to be directly engaged in international work, so, culture, education, the economy and climate change, looking at what we are already doing and how significant or not a refresh would be. There is always a 'do nothing' option, just keep rolling forward. I want to understand, though, what that could look like, and even if there is a light-touch refresh to get us through to 2026 so that a new Government can then have something that is current to work with, but then the opportunity to do that with a new mandate looking forward. If that were the option that we go through in the summer, then, yes, I would look to want to engage the committee. And again, that might be a technical briefing, but an engagement to think about how that would best work for the committee to have a conversation about what renewing those priorities looks like. And it's why I think the autumn is a good time, because we'll have to do some work to consider that through the summer and I hope we'll have the Irish shared statement in the forum meeting coming up as well. So, there are a number of things that will come together about that time that I think make it an appropriate period of time to be looking at what we're doing more broadly internationally to make sure that we have something to take us to 2026 and a bit beyond, which still gives the latitude that I think any incoming administration would want—to make sure that they don't turn up, whoever it is, and there's nothing ready, but, actually, that there isn't a strategy that tries to tie them in for half of the next Senedd term, because I don't think that would be appropriate either.

If you could provide us with an update after the summer—

Happy to.

—that would be really useful. Thank you. Okay, Chair.

Thank you. Just one of the things on that, obviously the former First Minister had offered this committee a role in the refresh—specifically that a paper be circulated to us for input. So, as I'm sure you've picked up, we're very keen to support that work. I think one of the things that Alun Davies mentioned earlier, which would potentially be of interest, is obviously the budgetary context since the strategy was set. Because a number of the organisations—you referenced culture—well, obviously, we know, in terms of the cuts that the Arts Council of Wales and our national institutions have suffered, they've specifically told the committee how that would impact on their international work, obviously, in terms of prioritising resources. So, I think there would be interest to know the impact of the ability of those organisations to support the delivery of the strategy, such as Welsh National Opera et cetera, and that context. And perhaps, if we can write to you with some of the detail of things that we've looked at as a committee that may be of interest, that would be, perhaps, helpful.

Yes. Look, I think, in the work that we're doing in looking at where we are, it'd be helpful to have an engagement around that, I think. And the reality is that our budget position is as it is and we made a clear-sighted choice in the budget about prioritising health and local government. And that has consequences everywhere. But that does not mean that we stop doing international work; it doesn't mean that we stop being engaged. We have five European countries where there is more than £1 billion-worth of trade. So, we're going to need to carry on having relationships and there's more we want to be able to do. As I said at the start, there's real interest in different parts of the world in what we're doing here as well. I think that's a real strength for us in more than just trade.

Thank you.

I just want to say that we can help promote it as well by engaging with committees about what we're doing internationally.

Diolch, Carolyn. If I can move on to Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Thinking about the delivery of the international strategy—obviously, we're in the fourth year of the strategy now—how much of the strategy itself, the action plans within it, has actually been delivered on now? In essence, how much is left to go?

Let me look at what our strategy is, it isn't a box to tick around, 'We have done this or done that.' I think lots of the stuff that we have done, our three priorities, to raise our profile, I think that's definitely happened. Now, what I wouldn't say is that that's all because of the international strategy, because there have been other things that have helped to raise our profile.

So, it wasn't because we had an international strategy that our men's football team managed to get to the FIFA World Cup finals, but that had a massive impact in raising our profile. The international success of Jess Fishlock and of Wrexham Association Football Club in north America is hugely significant for Wales's profile, but again I couldn't, hand on heart, claim that's because we had a strategy. But it is about understanding, not just the choices we made about deliberately wanting to engage, but where there are those incidental opportunities to add to what we're doing. All of those, I think, are good examples of how we've looked to take advantage of that.

We have our export action plan. There's work we've done on diaspora. Actually, because our profile is higher, there are more members of Welsh diaspora who are coming forward, saying they want to be part of helping. If you went back 10 years ago, we didn't have the same offer from Welsh diaspora. There are now people who want to be part of what we're doing, and that's a really positive point for us.

The other point, of course, is that, since we launched the international strategy, we've been through a period of real change and turmoil internationally. That means that we have both the budgetary challenges the Chair was running through earlier, in terms of how that's been dealt with within the UK, but also I think it reinforces why having international engagement matters as part of what we do as well. So, I think we can be positive on our three objectives—in raising our profile, in the impact on export, and being globally responsible—that we have definitely made strides forward in all of those areas.

The reason why I asked you specifically around what's left to go within the strategy is that the committee has done analysis in the past that said that there were approximately 250 actions across the strategy and action plans that the Government have to enact. So, there is, to a degree, some sort of box ticking here, isn't there, in the sense of ensuring that those 250 actions are implemented? So, how do you essentially go on and monitor whether or not those actions are completed or not? What are the internal evaluations that get under way?

Do you want to talk about how we do this internally? I'll just say, the committee asked us to do an annual report, and it should have been made available to you. The annual report is only a part of that, though. I don't want people to get lost in having a big, glossy, annual report, because actually we're going to need to shift more of our resources from annual reporting into doing the actual work, and then presenting things in a way that may not be as glossy, but I think gives more time to do the stuff you're talking about as well. So, I wouldn't say, 'Expect one of these every year', but it does give an idea of what we're doing, as well as, if you like, the internal civil service involvement and how it then gets to Ministers to make extra choices.

Yes, we do have internal monitoring, as you'd imagine, for our progress. That takes a number of forms. We look at country plans. So, wherever we have an overseas presence, we have a country plan and we monitor progress there every month in terms of how the team is doing, how that's contributing, and how also we are supporting that work from here, because it is absolutely a team approach. We have the monthly report that we send in to Ministers as well, and something very specific on the trade and invest side. Those are the numbers that we can absolutely look at in terms of export support, in terms of the business wins, the numbers of exporters we have in our cluster programme, the new exporter programme, and also the output from the various trade missions and overseas presence that we encourage and support. It's the same on inward investment. We monitor on a monthly basis both the pipeline, but also the numbers of investments, the jobs created, the jobs safeguarded, and the number of new investments within that. So, it's an important metric to see what we are attracting that's new into Wales, as well as the investments that are already taking place but are growing.

May I ask, sorry, where can we find this as a committee? Is it available, is it reported, so that we can see progress?

These are internal documents. They're both the country plans, and also the way that we—. I was going to come on to say that in the individual memoranda of understanding as well, we have—. Within each MOU, it's very bespoke, so there are specific areas that we're looking to deliver within each MOU, and we're tracking progress on that on a monthly basis. But they are internal documents. It's not something that we publish.

It's fascinating for us. If I can bring Alun Davies in, and then back to Luke.

They are good documents and they set out very clearly performance indicators, what our expectations are, and the management tools that are employed in order to deliver those objectives, and they work very well. And I think this is where the committee and the Government have struggled to find common ground, because the First Minister mentioned the men's world cup finals in Qatar, and I was lucky enough to be there, and—

Yes, with your bucket hat.

Question, please.

Obviously, I played no role in any of this, but—

Question, please, Alun.

But as an individual supporter—

Question, Alun.

—I saw a lot of what the Welsh Government was doing, and it was very, very effective—very effective. The question we have is that the Government tends to report on what it's done in retrospect, but what it doesn't do is set out what its objectives are in the future. So, for example, the conversation we had with the former First Minister about Qatar was very much, 'What are your objectives? How many events? What do you expect to achieve from that?', so that we as a committee, and as a Senedd, can hold the Government to account. And I think the Government is very good at reporting after the event, and less good—and this is where the committee, I think, and the Government need to have a wider conversation—about setting out what the objectives are, and how those objectives will be measured in advance. I think that is where we've found the difficulty, and that, of course, is a requirement for the accountability that we're seeking to achieve.

Thank you, Alun. And Luke.

I'm conscious of time, Chair, but just one very, very quick question on the report that was given to the committee. Within the report, it does mention Wales in India being fully set up now, and there were 18 events in the first quarter of 2024—that's welcome news. But on a more specific case, we know, obviously, what's going on in Tata at the moment, how involved has that team in India been in conversations with Tata, and in your visit as well, First Minister, to Tata in Mumbai? How engaged have they been in that process?

So, our India office, our head of India and the team, were really important in not just arranging the visit, but in everything around it. So, where you have a Welsh Government office in a country, it does make a really big difference in what we are able to do about the network you're able to plug into, because of the relationships they have, but also the relationships they have with the UK embassy as well, as we had the deputy high commissioner, who was part of the conversations we had as well. If we didn't have an office in that country, it would be harder. A UK embassy will support a devolved Government Minister when they're there. Having someone who is always there and part of it does mean you get more from the relationship. So, they were part of that, and in all the work we're doing on the year of Wales in India, the staff we have are a key part of making that a success. Without them, you can't do everything you need to do.

And then, actually, there's the conversation with Tata itself, which is a different matter, about what we're able to do, to deploy arguments around what they could and should do, about what the UK Government want to do and what the company, in a very hard-nosed way, are prepared to do, or not. I know we don't need to have a steel discussion session here, but you can be certain, without our office in India, we would not achieve most, I think, of what we want to do with the year of Wales in India, and certainly it would have made our engagement with Tata in the country much more difficult.

Thank you. If I may, just to return to the 250 actions, the former First Minister did accept a recommendation to provide a progress update against the strategy's actions. Would it be helpful if we shared with you the list of the 250 we've identified, so you can confirm that our list is the same as the Welsh Government's one?

I think, if you give us your list, that would be helpful, so we don't end up trying to write to you something and you saying, 'This isn't our list.' That would be really helpful, to have the same thing to talk about.

Brilliant. Fantastic. Thank you. We'll do that, so that we know we're working to the same targets in terms of our scrutiny. Jenny, are there any additional ones? I know we've covered a lot of what we wanted to cover.

I just wanted to—. I want to work out how all this international activity, which is quite rightly going on in most relevant Government departments, as well as the work that committees do in getting evidence of best practice elsewhere—. The Equality and Social Justice Committee recently took evidence from Estonia, which is now top of the PISA league tables, and we were looking at the relevance of the early years strategy they have to making that happen. How do you ensure that your international strategy keeps pace with the really unbelievable pace of change as a result, really, of the whole climate emergency that affects everything that we do?

Right, so in the education field that you started with, then, yes, we do have regular engagement with partners around Europe around what 'better' looks like, and the sharing of that information. That's a key part of our not just international work, but our domestic work in wanting to deliver better outcomes for people here.

And on the extraordinary pace and scale of what's happening around climate in all its senses, well, again, that is part of why we do the work. So, when I talked earlier about the ministries that we're likely to engage with over the summer, it's why climate change was one of them. Because people are both interested in what we're doing, and we're interested in what other parts of the world are doing, and the shifting evidence. It was part of the conversation we had with the EU ambassador. The fact that climate change is real, and it's changing southern Europe significantly, but also northern Europe is seeing real change as well—you know, the significant heat events we have had on regular points in the summer, the amount of rainfall, the storm events we get, so it's very real. I don't see it as an advantage that you could grow southern European grapes in northern Wales. That would not be a good sign for me. It's a sign of, actually, the fact that we need to do something about climate change. And it's true that we can only do that with international action. It's also true we have to be a part of doing that. And we can't wait for other parts of the world to act and then say, 'We're not doing anything until you do.' That just guarantees, if you play that sort of game of international chicken, then, you know, it's not so much us—or maybe Luke, as he's younger—but actually it'll be people we're making choices for in different generations that will pay the price.

So, the question is: how do you ensure that the international strategy, how do you evaluate it to see what impact it's having and that it remains relevant given the pace of change?

But my point is, it's not just about the international strategy. The international strategy doesn't govern what every department does.

No, of course not.

So, the work we're doing on climate change here in Wales takes account of international evidence and it looks at what other parts of the world are doing. That is added to by the international relationships that we have to make it easier to have that conversation. Ireland's a good example. Unsurprisingly, a relatively similar climate to us given where we are in the world, so they have lots of the same challenges. Our conversation with southern Europe, though, really matters too in terms of the extraordinary events they're going through as well. So, it is part of the international engagement we need to have, and we still then need to come back to, 'What are we doing, what does the evidence tell us we could do?', and then, 'How do we bring people with us?'

Actually, that is one of the most useful things in talking to other governments, whether it's sub-state or national level, to understand, 'How do you take people with you successfully?' Because part of the reason why the populist right have had a rise is that there's been a reaction against some of the things that people have been doing. And that doesn't mean it's evidence led, it's often emotionally led, but it's happening. If we can't get choices to be made, and made by democratic governments to make a deliberate shift, then the future that I don't want my son to inherit may well happen anyway. So, this is personal for all of us, and that's why I don't want to get drawn into, 'This is all about the international strategy', but our international work definitely has a part to play in delivering that.

Thank you. We have five minutes remaining. One of the issues the committee has been following very closely has been the UK Government's instruction to embassies that its officials be present at devolved Government meetings overseas. Could you tell us your view on this, and also whether the issue has arisen yet during your leadership?

No. So, look, the meeting with Tata in India, the deputy high commissioner was actually helpful—really helpful—in helping us to get meetings, to get access to the right people, and what we then did afterwards, both the conversations beforehand as well as afterwards, about what had happened. So, I don't think we should see engagement with staff from embassies as a threat to what we do. Actually—and it's Alun Davies's experience in his recent US visit—it's that it's a helpful relationship to have a constructive relationship, to get the most out of the additional links that exist.

What would be different is if someone attempted to intervene and say, 'That is the wrong priority, you are not allowed to say that', and that has never happened, not on any of the visits I've done as the economy Minister, the smaller number of visits I did as the health Minister or, indeed, now as the First Minister. So, I think, really, this is dealing with a different problem, and it's really about how some people have seen the current Government in Scotland wanting to go out and have an assertively different approach in meetings with the UK Government, and actually, lots of what we do is, 'This is what we are doing in Wales—this is my choice as a Minister in this Government. This is what I want to do with the budgets I have. This is how we see our role in the wider world'. We don't have the problems that other people highlight, and I've never felt constrained in wanting to make an argument about what the Welsh Government wants to do in any of my international meetings by an official.

The point where there's been a point of difference has been on some engagements where the Secretary of State for Wales has been in similar meetings, and that is about needing to agree in advance what you're going to say and then sticking to that, and that means that there is a more coherent offer from Wales on that basis. That isn't about officials; that is about character and ability.

You wanted to come in briefly, Alun.

Just for completeness, it's important that it's the Welsh Government that represents Wales in that sense, rather than the Wales Office. The sense I have is that it's the sense in Whitehall that other countries don't actually understand the UK in the same ways that they do, of course, because everybody I've ever met as a Minister and subsequently has always known the structure of the United Kingdom and how the United Kingdom is governed, and the rest of it. So, I think it's a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

But the really interesting question here about our relationship with the United Kingdom Government is that about sharing resource, sharing information, and is that about having an inter-governmental relationship and a structure of inter-governmentalism that enables all parts of the United Kingdom to function to their full extent and to enable. For example, there's nobody in Whitehall that knows more about fish than the Scots.

We're running out of time, Alun.

So, how do we maximise the advantage of the knowledge and experience that we have in Wales to work with the United Kingdom Government to deliver a much stronger profile for Wales on the international stage?

It's normally the politics of elected Members that get in the way of people doing the right thing. Whenever I've been away, I've found really constructive relationships between Welsh Government offices and UK embassies. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in some of them, but, actually, there's a really constructive relationship. You take advantage of what the UK is already doing and we're able to say, 'And we can do these other things in Wales as well'. When I was in the United States, the creative sector were really interested in the UK offer that existed but also what else that meant if they came to Wales to be part of it, too. That wasn't just our diaspora saying that; there were other people, too.

And it was the same when I was in Alabama. They knew that we were part of the UK. They also knew that there was a Welsh Government that made choices. Now, people running the state understood that and the mayor of Birmingham understood that, too, and we have direct relationships as a result of that visit that add to what we do. So, I think you're right. There is an issue about trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. What we need to be clear about and to be confident about is that we could and should gain real benefit from the UK-wide network of embassies and consulates so that we can add to that with the work that we do, and those are choices for us to make and to be accountable to the Senedd for.

I agree.

Just to finish, and I'm aware of the time, have you had any contact with Foreign Secretary, David Cameron, on UK foreign policy at all?

I met him at the D-day events in Normandy briefly, but there isn't direct engagement with Lord Cameron about UK foreign policy on a range of areas. I think what we would be more helpful is around where we have distinct or particular interests, and where, actually, there's agreement or disagreement, because, as we've just been going through, in lots of areas where we've got an international perspective, we find our working relationships are actually effective. And introducing—. Ministers are not always elected—I need to say 'elected'—and, of course, Lord Cameron isn't elected, but introducing politicians is often where you get more friction, and I think that is because people end up being suspicious of what they actually want to do. And, actually, most of the companies that we work with and the different organisations that we work with just want to get on and make a difference, and they'd like us all to be constructive and grown-up about what we do, and that is generally the approach that we take, because that is the best way to have an influence and to get the maximum number of people on board. We'll see whether Lord Cameron is still the Foreign Secretary after people have voted on 4 July. But, whoever the new UK Government is, as we need to have conversations with the Foreign Office and others, we'll do so. But, most of our relationships are actually with other departments, not the Foreign Office. It's mostly the business department, where the Secretary of State currently is a problem, but other Ministers and officials aren't. And it's also our work with education, where, again, officials are not really a problem in our relationship and they're often constructive. So, the work with officials really does matter, as well as some of the frustrations we're bound to talk about in our relationships with Ministers in other Governments.

Thank you, First Minister.

No problem.

Time has raced on this morning. There were further questions from us, in terms of the budget. Would you be happy for us to write to you with some additional points? Apologies for not reaching those questions today. I'd like to thank you for taking part in the session. Obviously, you'll receive a copy of the transcript, as usual, after the meeting, for you to confirm that you're happy with that transcript. Thank you very much. You're free to leave now.

No problem.

I'll look forward to your letter.

Thank you.

So, Members, we have a number of papers to note on the agenda, which have been included in your packs. If we go through those, ae you content that we note them? We'll go to 3.1—any comments, or happy to note? Then, 3.2, 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6. No.

So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that we resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Are Members content to agree the motion? In which case, thank you, we will continue in private.