Equality and Social Justice Committee

I'm very pleased to welcome our next witnesses, who are Angharad Dean, who has lived experience of being disabled in the workplace, and Dee Montague-Coast and Isabel Linton from Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales. All three of you are very welcome. I'm just going to start off by asking you how you cope with the double whammy of discrimination as women, who already suffer the gender pay gap, as well as the barriers specific to disabled women, indeed, those with invisible disabilities. So, who would like to go first? Dee.

Thanks, Chair. I'm happy to speak a bit more on that. I think my own lived experience has a little bit more intersection, as well, in terms of me being part of the LGBTQ+ community too. So, in terms of being in employment but also trying to access things like diagnosis of my health issues and, therefore, accessing additional support, there were barriers in place there, because of my gender identity, because of my sexuality and because of my sex, as well. So, I think that's been a huge issue for me. I think, because I live with invisible impairments and non-visible illnesses, I've sort of cosplayed, I tend to say, as being well. And it's only been in the last few years that I've used mobility aides—things like walking sticks, wheelchairs and things like that—so, the treatment I have now from general society is better than when I was trying to navigate with chronic illnesses without, necessarily, the diagnosis I needed.

A lot of the health issues I live with have no treatments and no cures, so the burden of responsibility to keep myself well is placed upon me. Obviously, now I work for a disabled people's organisation—I work for Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales—and I have every reasonable adjustment that I could ever have hoped for, but I am still very poorly. I still work only 15 hours a week, and that's at best. Sometimes I have to say, 'No, it's too much'. You may be able to tell on the screen that I work from my bed, so I've got an adjustable bed. I often work in my pyjamas; I have meetings with the likes of Senedd Members and things in my pyjamas. And then, in my previous workplaces, things like that would have been seen as totally unacceptable or not quite right, you know. So, I think, as a wider society we've got a lot to do in terms of making experiences like mine just normalised and to make us welcome in workplaces, even if we can't physically be there and things like that. I'll stop talking a little bit, because I want other people to talk too.

Very good. Okay. Angharad, is this a good moment to bring you in? Thank you.

Yes, it's fine. Iris was being a bit vocal, but she should be okay. When COVID was a bigger thing and we were locked down, workplaces were a lot more accommodating about working from home, being adjustable and more flexible with their time, but as the world started opening up again, they started freezing up again. I find that, as a disabled person—I am registered blind, I have a guide dog; I can't necessarily hide the fact that I'm blind—I need a lot of adjustment, but I find it difficult. Actually, when I got pregnant, I got very poorly and I had to leave my role until I was well enough. And now that I'm actually actively looking for work again, I'm finding you don't get anywhere. So, as a disabled woman and now a parent I've been hit with the trifecta that you just don't get anywhere at all—

Thank you for that.

—especially when you need those flexible working hours.

Thank you for sharing that. Isabel, is there anything you want to add to what's been said?

Yes. I'm speaking from the point of view of the surveys and focus groups that Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales have done with our members, and some of the feedback we got was that—for women in particular—gynaecological issues are often still considered quite taboo. So, people are ashamed to talk about them or they are told things like pelvic pain is just a part of life that everyone has to deal with, and there are other things that are treated as though—. Hormone mediated symptoms, like hot flushes and brain fog, are treated like a joke. So, there have been a lot of misconceptions and stereotypes around what disability looks like. And that means that those with non-visible health issues fear that they won't be believed or they don't have the confidence to ask for reasonable adjustments.

Thank you for summarising the situation so clearly. I am now going to hand over to Mick Antoniw, who's going to ask you some questions.

Thank you for the evidence you've given. I'd like to ask specifically about the framework within which we work with regard to legal advice, to support advice and so on. I think you have called for specific and very focused advice centres and disability advice centres. There is, of course, advice available from trade unions and so on. And I was just really wondering what your view is of the support that is available for the sort of specialist advice and, perhaps, advocacy that are maybe needed from time to time, and what sort of improvements might be possible.

Dee, do you want to go first?

I think there needs to be a recognition, particularly for those of us who are living with energy limiting conditions, chronic pain, those non-visible impairments that the—. We kind of call it the health admin burden. So, you're trying to navigate all of these systems where, as previous sessions have touched on, not all of it is devolved. Sometimes, you have to go through different departments and things like that. So, there's the admin burden of trying to navigate the systems on top of trying to manage your healthcare, manage appointments. You often book time off for appointments, because that might not be a reasonable adjustment that you have in work, but also there is the gendered lens through which we still view the different responsibilities placed upon women, such as running the home, caring responsibilities, parenting and things like that.

So, I think, from my personal perspective with this, it would just be great if it was like a one-stop shop and no wrong door, so you’re not having to deal with—. Because there are health conditions I know that I have that I haven’t even sought diagnosis for yet. I’m on the diagnosis pathway for ADHD, and I’ve prioritised that one because I know I can get medication for that and it might help with my other impairments. I also now know that I’m autistic and I haven’t sought diagnosis for that yet, because there’s no treatment for that. I’ve got the reasonable adjustments and things I need in place, so it’s navigating that, sometimes when you don’t have diagnosis as well. So, although these systems often claim to be social model champions, you don’t always see that as a reality; you still have to present evidence and things like that. I think the admin burden being taken from us and put somewhere else would be absolutely wonderful, and I think, as well, making sure that whatever comes forward is fully co-produced. I think what came out of the 'Locked out' report is that decisions were made about disabled people without disabled people being equitable or even the voice of authority when it came to their own experiences and their needs. So, co-production is really, really important for whatever is put in place to make sure that we can access legal advice, benefits, all sorts of things.

Did anyone else want to come in? If not, I’ll follow on with some questions. Okay, I’ll follow on, then. One of the areas where, of course, there’s a lot of change taking place is going to be via the Employment Rights Bill. Within that Bill, though there are various aspects of it relating to fairness, equality, well-being and so on, there isn’t anything that is specific with regard to disability. Have you considered the Employment Rights Bill? Have you made any representations on it? Do you have any comments or views on it, because, although it’s not a devolved matter, it clearly will impact on many devolved functions and services? I’d appreciate any views that you have on that.

I have views.

Please, come in.

Shall we come to Angharad first?

Yes, sure.

Touching on a few things that are more admin, again, as a parent and a disabled person, it is just more to do. When you say about the new legislation coming in, we already have legislation that does nothing, so I don’t think it’s going to do anything.

But is it your view that there should be more specific legislation, that there should be something incorporated within it? This is the first real opportunity in 14 years to actually introduce less restrictive and more open employment legislation.

I definitely do think there needs to be more legislation in place that is more specific, but as someone who has experience around things that have specific legislation in place already, i.e. access rights to have a guide dog that get ignored daily, I don’t see it actually working, going forward.

Thank you.

Isabel, is there anything you wanted to add?

All I can really say to this is that, throughout our surveys and our focus groups, none of our respondents mentioned the Employment Rights Bill, so I wonder if there’s maybe just a general lack of awareness for disabled individuals and people with long-term health conditions and they’re not aware of what the legislation may be. Again, it’s that admin issue of how much pressure is on them to actually seek out the legislation so that it can be enforced.

Dee.

Yes. I think on that, as well, again we need more co-production, and it need to be proper co-production, where it’s understood what co-production is, that it’s properly resourced, that it’s properly embedded, and that disabled people are properly supported to have their views heard as well. I think, unfortunately, it’s not a surprise that there’s no mention of disabled people within this Bill. We've been treated appallingly, let's be honest, by the UK Government, particularly over the last 15 years, and I think there's despair from disabled people, from disabled people's organisations, activist groups, that they're still being left out of conversations and left out of decisions that are being made about us. This is the thing: disabled people need more support, not less, and we're seeing now, with the UK Government continuing with the previous Government's proposals to continue cuts to the work capability assessment—. That will see—I hate to the use the word 'vulnerable'—our most vulnerable disabled people, who cannot work—. And this is something that we need to recognise: there are disabled people who cannot work, and should not be expected to try and find work, but they're going to be up to £5,000 a year worse off. So, you then increase those wider determinants of health and our experiences of poverty, and things like that. So, I think that's a real issue.

But I think, with any employment rights Bill, when it comes to flexible working—I'm evidence of this—flexible working alone isn't the silver bullet, it isn't the thing that sorts everything out. There's a way of thinking called flex plus, which is about remote hybrid roles, which can be delivered purely remotely, but also reduced hours, to accommodate the needs of people with energy impairments, chronic pain, and things like that, and also working from home. Many of my friends have flexible working opportunities, but it's, 'Yes, you come into the office on this day', and it's the same day every week or every fortnight. It's flexible in terms of, 'Yes, you can choose when you work, but we also have a big expectation that you do x, y and x.' So, the flex plus way of working, I think, would, hopefully, address some of the issues that have particularly come out of COVID. We're kind of being expected now to pretend that COVID doesn't exist and it's not a danger. So, all of the people who would have been shielding or trying to take care of themselves during lockdowns, and things like that, they may now be living with long COVID, they may meet the diagnostic criteria for myalgic encephalomyelitis, they may have mental health conditions that have come as a result of this, but they're still now being expected to be back into the office, back commuting, in all of those high-risk areas, when, often, employers haven't done anything to be COVID conscious within their workplaces either.

One of the issues that has been emerging—. And just on that last point, we have had evidence, I think from the Wales TUC, in terms of representations they're specifically making. Just a little bit about invisible health conditions, because this is something that has been an issue for many decades, in fact. What could be done to actually improve the understanding and, I suppose, the framework within which employers work with regard to invisible health conditions? You talked, obviously, about flexibility. What should be done there? What would your recommendations be in respect of, I suppose, often invisible fluctuating health conditions that can, obviously, be chronic but not visible and often ill-understood?

Can I come in on that?

Yes, and then I'll go to Isabel.

Okay. So, I think this comes back to what we as a society perceive a disability to be, and what it looks like, if that makes sense. Non-disabled society tends to view disability as inspirational or tragic. There's a line in one of my poems that basically says, 'Pity or Paralympics, with little in-between', because we have this—. We see that society likes disabled people who are perceived as overcoming their impairment, and inspiring them not to complain about their own lives, or they like it when it makes them grateful for their own lives. People with non-visible impairments who might look well, and when we struggle so much with our health—and this does have a gendered lens as well—when we're presenting and we look okay, and you can't tell that we're sick—. There are social media accounts called, 'But you don't look sick', because of that perception of what illness looks like. So, we tend not to be believed. It doesn't fit that narrative, and especially if we're having days off sick or we complain about our health issues or we're constantly seeking answers, then you start experiencing that that doesn't fit the narrative. So, we're just discriminated against then. I've been called attention seeking, I've been accused of trying to find things that aren't there. A lot of us find that our impairments will kick in a bit more as we go through later life, particularly women. So, if you look at ADHD and perimenopause, you have now a whole swathe of women and people assigned female at birth who are realising, when they're in their late 30s, early 40s onwards, 'Hang on, something's not quite right here.' And they might go and get hormone replacement therapy and things like that for their menopause, but then may find that these traits that they've masked and hidden their whole lives are sabotaging themselves.

Again, I've also heard, 'Well, you were fine before. That wasn't a problem before. Why is it suddenly a problem now?' And this is what our members come and tell us all the time, as well. When they're trying to access support in work, if they don't fit that really narrow lens of what we deem a disability to be, it's still very medical-model focused, it's still very medical-model heavy. So, yes, trying to access that additional support, whether in work or outside, can be really challenging because of how we present, but also, yes, our gender and sex as well.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Isabel, did you want to add anything, or should I go on to ask a further question?

Just to say that I suppose, as well, it's this continued thing of taking the burden away from disabled people to disclose their conditions if they don't want to, to change this idea that there's a right way to be disabled. There, potentially, needs to be increased training and support for employers, and an expectation for employers to engage with specialist groups or charities for their expert knowledge.

This is a very complicated area, though, isn't it, because if the employer doesn't know about the disability, it's quite difficult for them to understand why their employee isn't able to come to work on a particular day or at a particular time, and there may be other issues. So, I appreciate this is a really complex area. From the survey that FTWW did, of your participants, over half of them said they didn't disclose their disability because of real or perceived risk of discrimination. So, what impacts might schemes like Disability Confident have on disabled people if they were promoted more vigorously?

Shall I—?

Angharad wanted to come in, so I'll come back to you. Angharad.

Things like Disability Confident, I believe, might have a problem. I mentioned before, in the pre that I did for this, that applying under Disability Confident I've done once in my maiden name and once in my married name. I didn't disclose under my married name that I was disabled, and I got an interview. Well, I didn't under my maiden name when I disclosed the disability. So, I think it is still used as a way to weed people out, that they don't want disabled people there. So, I think people are too scared to disclose.

Okay. Now, in your particular situation, it would be very difficult for you not to disclose when you'd come to interview because, as you say, you're registered blind and you use a guide dog. So, what action do you think is needed for somebody like you to be more confident to declare your disability upfront? Obviously, in the situation you just described, of when you didn't disclose, you then got an interview.

I think there need to be guarantees, maybe, that you weren't discriminated against because of your disability. In my own experience, I’ve found they'll do it anyway. I've had experience of actually training somebody and they got promoted ahead of me, and they just said, 'Oh, it's because they work faster', when it was because of disability.

Okay. This is very complicated. Just going back to the FTWW survey, how do you think we could enable more people to disclose their disability so that there was an honest and open co-produced conversation about what contribution an individual can make to that particular business? Either Isabel or Dee.

Go on, Isabel.

Okay. I think the issue is that the individual needs to know that they're not going to be discriminated against if they disclose their disability status or their health condition, and so it's finding a way to ensure that employers know that they can't discriminate in that way. I think some of the feedback we had about the Disability Confident scheme was that a lot of our members found that it didn't really mean anything, and that employers could have a gold standard but they still were inaccessible and unsupportive. So, it would be maybe necessary for the scheme to be expanded so that organisations and practices are actually reviewed by disabled people and employers themselves, and making sure that any standard mark or scheme is co-produced and regularly revisited and assessed by disabled employees.

Okay. So, clearly, a lot more work needs doing to promote the social model of disability, as so many of the individuals who took part in your survey had never heard of it. Some witnesses we heard from earlier have called for the Welsh Government to explore a Welsh disability kitemark, which would be in addition to the Disability Confident scheme. What's your view on that as an addition or, alternatively, to improve the visibility and effectiveness of the Disability Confident scheme? Who would like to go first? If you'd just like to indicate. Dee.

Yes, I think there's potential for these things to help improve the situation here in Wales, but, again, I think it comes down to it being fully co-produced and that disabled people's voices and experiences are at the very heart of this. I think there probably does need to be more social model training—whether that could be a mandatory part of this Welsh disability kitemark. So, yes, the training but also the accountability. As we've heard, in the current schemes that are in place, there's not always the accountability there. So, actually, meeting the criteria for a gold standard or even having the basics can often be more about ticking the box, 'Yes, we do that, yes, we do that', and it might just be one person's responsibility to be auditing these things. You find, then, inequity even within different departments of an employment space. So, I think that's more important.

But I think for people with non-visible impairments and fluctuating health conditions, with energy-limiting conditions, chronic pain, we don't always see ourselves represented within the social model, because, often, the top line of the social model is that we are disabled by barriers and attitudes, not our bodies and our health, whereas I very much am disabled by my body at times. I love the social model, I recognise that that is what needs to change, but I think as well we need to make sure that people living with long-term chronic health issues feel included within the social model, that there are more efforts to communicate to us that, yes, it recognises that our health can disable us. But, actually, like in my experience, had I not had a decades-long diagnostic delay for endometriosis, I probably wouldn't be disabled to the level that I am now; I wouldn't have necessarily gained those additional impairments. So, it's recognising those wider elements. So, it's not just about societal barriers, it's not just about attitudes, it's not just about things like the disability pay gap and things like that, it also brings in things like health, poverty, our living standards, stress, all sorts of different things.

Very good. Just sticking with disability and employment—I appreciate what you're saying, Dee, but I wonder if I can come back to Angharad. So, I think either Dee or Isabel mentioned that employer attitudes to disability are a key barrier, and there's an unwillingness to make reasonable adjustments, even when the Equality Act allows you to do that without any risk of it being regarded as positive discrimination. And I just wondered if, given that your disability is visible, what awareness there is amongst employers that there are obligations under the Equality Act that they should be adhering to. And I just wondered if you've even ever had that conversation with your employers.

I have; I actually had it with my previous employer while I was pregnant. I said, 'There's the Equality Act in place, and you do need to meet these', and I had a full argument with HR, which resulted in me having to leave my job, unfortunately. Because there is no awareness of what their obligations are, or it's a black and white box: you're either disabled or, in my case, you're pregnant—you couldn't be both. And they didn't know the legislation. So, pregnancy disabled me even further because it triggered other conditions that I have to be worse. But, in their eyes, I was only blind, so the accommodations were only because I was blind.

Okay. And did you have a trade union in that employment?

No. My area doesn't really have unions that I'm aware of. I know I could have joined a trade union, but it wasn't promoted within my job, so I didn't know at the time. A prime example is, they see these jobs, and they say they're remote, or you have to go in once a week, but I think they don't take into consideration things like the delays, the vast delays with access to work, or they just don't know what it is. And then transport itself is an issue when you're disabled. Blind people aren't allowed to drive, and they don't let my guide dog drive yet either. [Laughter.] So, that is another issue that they don't take into consideration. They don't take the Equality Act in. So, yes, it's a big issue.

Okay. Clearly, it's a major issue if there are no trade unions in a particular business. Just going back to FTWW, you found that third sector employers had been responsive to the needs of disabled people, and, Dee, you mentioned that—obviously, you quite rightly are working for an exemplary employer in FTWW. But just broadening it out more generally, what action do you think is required to get public sector employers taking disabled people's rights to work much more seriously, given that we have the Well-being of Future Generations Act (Wales) 2015 and various other bits of legislation that public sector bodies are obliged to comply with? So, of Isabel and Dee, which one of you would like to go first?

Did you want to go first, Isabel?

I can say something, I think. I think it's important that the public sector makes really clear that you genuinely want to hear from and that you value disabled people in the public sector. So, you need to proactively demonstrate that the opportunities are available, so whether that's training or promotions, your pay, and make sure that that is equitable to non-disabled people. So, you need to make clear what's available in terms of job shares, working from home, and value the lived experience and expertise as much as qualifications and former employment. So, it's really important to listen to disabled employees, or prospective disabled employees, and work with them to ensure that they're enabled and productive as well as possible.

What do you think it would take for more public sector employers to understand the value of disabled employees, as opposed to the opposite, which is often the case at the moment?

I think you'd need to recruit, or support the recruitment of, disabled employees in more senior positions, so that there's more of a top-down approach, and get disabled people into human resources, so that they're part of the recruitment process and can really help to showcase that disabled people can be fantastic employees.

Very good. I'm now going to hand over to Jane Dodds.

Hello there. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. I've got questions around Government interventions, and it's really wanting to know your experiences of the various Government interventions. The first question is around the Welsh Government's disability rights taskforce, and I just wondered if any of you had been involved in that, and what your thoughts were and what you felt the outcomes were from that. So, I guess the first question is: who was involved? Perhaps, if you were, do raise your hand. It looks like Dee was involved. Angharad, were you were involved at all? No. Okay. Well, let's start with Dee. Do you want to just give us your quick impressions of that, please? Thank you.

Sure. So, I think the disability rights taskforce was very much welcomed by myself and by FTWW as an organisation as well. As we know, it came out as a result of the 'Locked Out' report, and, as I cited earlier, we knew that the reason we had such a high death rate during that first phase of COVID was because disabled people weren't part of the decision-making process.

So, I personally sat on a few of the groups. We had other FTWW members involved in, I think, all of the different working groups that were part of the taskforce, and our acting chair, Willow Holloway, was chair of the health and well-being group as well. So, there's been some excellent discussion within these groups, within the working groups, but I think now our concern is, in terms of the recommendations and the final reports that come from that, we're very keen to see—. Although we need to prioritise that sustainable co-production that I discussed earlier, we need to make sure that this is published as soon as possible, and particularly before the end of the next Senedd term—this Senedd term. Part of the reason I say that is because whoever comes into Government next in Wales, I think we have a risk that some of the amazing work that came up, and the suggestions and recommendations that have come up as part of this—we risk losing that.

It's quite strange sitting here and about to get very political, but if you look at what's happened in America now with the re-election of Trump, there is so much anti-disability, there is systemic ableism sentiment out there, and we see that reflected in some of our politics over here in the UK as well. We're still seeing it now with the change of Government, the suggestions that we need mental health coaches going into mental health wards, where people are incredibly unwell, trying to basically get them into work. We've said about the work capability assessment cuts that are proposed there, talking about us as disabled people being economically inactive. The work that's taking place in the UK Government now hasn't consulted on—. Disabled people still aren't in the room when they're talking about us apparently being economically inactive. Most of us will despise that term, because even if we don't work and we are in receipt of benefits, we still have bills to pay, we still have to buy food, we still have to buy clothing, pay for our heating, all of that kind of thing. So, I think we need to really prioritise and put our foot down a little bit in terms of getting those recommendations published and actually accepted and embedded, then, so they can't be undone later down the line.

Okay. Thank you. Really good points there. You're not the first to make it either, in terms of wanting it published. Isabel, have you any experience of the taskforce and outcomes from yourself?

So, I'm actually very new to Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales, so I think Dee's covered everything that I'm aware of there.

Lovely. All right. Thank you so much. My next question is around general Welsh Government initiatives. There are quite a few employment support initiatives, and I just wondered what your experiences were of those initiatives. Are they effective? Is there good co-ordination? Is there good awareness? How do you feel those initiatives translate directly to your situation or the situation of others? Angharad, would you like to go first on that?

Yes, just a sec. There we go. She's just learning to crawl, so she's a bit everywhere. I've actually tried access initiatives like Working Wales and a few others, but I found, in my situation, because of the level of employment that I'm at and the level of education, they either don't know how to help me or they won't help me.

Gosh. May I just follow up? Are you able just to share a little bit more? Are you happy just to say what you mean?

For example, I've been in leadership roles, high management roles, things like that. I work in data analytics, and quite high-level paid media sort of things. When I tried to get roles—head of paid media was the last role I applied for—I asked for help from Working Wales, 'Is my CV fine?', and they literally came back and told me that my CV level and the level of employment in that is more than they're able to help with.

Goodness. Okay. Thank you.

It seemed like, for minimum wage, they'll help you out. They'll help my brother out quite a lot, but they won't help me.

Thank you, Angharad. Thank you for sharing that. Dee, do you have any reflections on any of the Welsh Government support initiatives?

From my personal experience, as I've said before, I didn't know that I was allowed to call myself disabled until about four or five years ago, and even when I did, I found I was policed: 'I don't consider you as disabled', or this that and the other. The first time I applied for personal independence payment, I was rejected and had to go all the way through to tribunal. So, you have these messages all the time that you're not disabled or you're not disabled enough. I think this is actually really common for so many in the FTWW community—that we don't actually realise that we are disabled, essentially; we don't recognise that, because of all of those other issues that we've covered. I never knew I could access any of that support, and I think a lot of our members would be in the same boat as well.

Thank you very much. Isabel, just from you as well, are there any experiences from your members?

Most of our members felt that there hasn't been much progress in supporting disabled employees. Again, as Dee mentioned earlier, many felt that the pressure was on them to find initiatives and services rather than the support coming to them. And then they also found that delays with schemes such as Access to Work were so significant that it actually meant that they weren't able to accept offers of employment or they had to struggle to remain in their roles before these schemes were implemented.

Thank you. And just my final question: what needs to change? We are here in this place where we're hearing different views, but it's really about how it works for you—that's the critical bit here. What needs to change? I'll start with Angharad, if I may. What are your reflections, Angharad?

As has been said, I think the burden of it needs to be taken away from us as the individual. The Government want us to go and find work and not identify as disabled—okay, cool, then give me a job. Why do I have to go through the whole job process, applications for Access to Work, finding the taxi companies and the quotes and finding everything to make it easier for the job, but the people in the job to get me into the job aren't actually there helping me at all? Access to Work should be you get the job, you've gone through all the checks and everything, and they're like, 'Okay. Access to Work is an option. Do you require it?' And then Access to Work itself shouldn't take longer than four to six weeks. My last job took six months before I got anything. I was out of pocket for such a long time that my pay cheque wasn't actually giving me any money at the end of the month.

Goodness me. Thank you so much for sharing that. Dee, what needs to work? What needs to change?

Can I just clarify: is this more generally or is this specific to employers?

Anything and everything. I think we're going to come back to this, in terms of next steps, but, I suppose, this is just linking in to what you said before and your experience.

I think, as Angharad said, the burden needs to be taken from us. We are already disabled by everything that we've discussed—these societal barriers, the physical barriers, attitudinal barriers. So, the pressure needs to come off us, and like I said before, we need more support, not less. If sanctions and things like that worked with benefits, then we wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation, would we? If all of the schemes that are in place worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

Largely, the burden needs to be taken from disabled people, and we need to be radical with it as well. Ableism is a direct response of capitalism, it's a direct result of us of being seen as worthy people depending on what we can do and what our productivity is and things like that. So, we need to really flip the narrative, I think, because we know that disabled people often end up being more loyal than other employees—they stay in their roles for longer. We have to find innovative ways to get around situations every day of our lives, so it makes us really innovative in workplaces as well. It makes us really creative. So, there are loads and loads of positives of ensuring that you have disabled people in your workforce and that you know that they're there, and that you support them, not least because we're 26 per cent of the population in Wales. We're not going anywhere.

Thank you very much. And finally, Isabel, is there anything from your members on what needs to change? We'll come to the wider picture, but anything quick that you feel.

I suppose the feedback is that any improvements need to be co-produced, so actually getting that advice from service users, making sure that disabled people are part of the decision-making process, and that those disabled people are adequately compensated for their time and expertise, and not expected to share their experiences and their advice for free.

Thank you, Chair. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. I now want to hand over—. Could somebody unmute me? I don't think I can be heard. I would now like to hand over to Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for this afternoon. It's been really informative and also really disappointing, actually, to hear some of the lived experiences, especially with you, Angharad, and about how you're looking to get those—. I wouldn't necessarily even say 'higher end jobs', but looking for that, and there just seems to be no help or support there, and that's really disheartening, actually.

I suppose that sort of leads on to the field of questioning I wanted to ask, about employment schemes. From the evidence we've taken, if we look at apprenticeships, there seems to be a lack of apprenticeships for those with disabilities to apply for. And when they are there, they seem to be all geared towards the same sector, like hospitality. There have been a couple of evidence sessions we've taken about how they promote barista as an employment opportunity. Or, again, in terms of voluntary jobs, where people there say, 'Well, hang on, I can do this voluntarily, but no-one seems to want to pay me to do it.’ And I just wanted to get your opinions on that, really, just to see if that's something that you're aware of. Is that something reflective of your own experiences? Angharad, I don't know if you wanted to come in first.

Yes, absolutely. Like you said about the voluntary thing, there are so many charities, on a daily basis, that come to me for my lived experience and for my advice and they ask me to do presentations and talks. But when you apply for a job with that charity, doing the exact same job, you're not given it ahead of an able-bodied person. That includes charities I worked very closely with regarding my sight loss. You can guess the two main ones; I won’t name them. It's a big thing in bigger charities like Disability Wales, for example—I get asked all the time to do things for them, but you’d never get given the job when you do apply for them. So, you’re not worth anything if they need to pay you, but your time’s fine when it’s free. Then you’ve got the schemes, like you said. For example, there was an HR apprenticeship I’d like to have gone for, to retrain, because, like I’ve said, I’ve had a baby and I might not necessarily want to go back into the job I had. But because of my education level, and because of prior experience that I have, I’m not even considered for apprenticeships if I want to retrain and do something different. We’re expected to think, ‘Oh, you’ve done that jobs for 10 years, you may as well carry on’.

That’s really disappointing. Dee, do you have anything to add?

In addition to that, looking at volunteering opportunities as well, a lot of our members, at this point in time, tell us that they can’t work due to their health condition or impairment, but they might have a few hours a week, or a month, to give to things like that, and often find that the application process, the interview process, the expectation, is very similar, if not identical, to paid employment. At FTWW, our volunteers essentially do what they want and when they want to do it, and when they have capacity. If they need to take breaks, if they need to step down, if they come to us and say, just like Angharad, ‘I’m expecting, I want to take a year or two years away from this’, we’re fully flexible with that. But a lot of disabled people will still have to apply through a process, they’ll have to supply references. If they haven’t had paid employment for a very long time, already there’s another barrier there. And a lot of the volunteering roles can be just as onerous as paid employment, and it can be, ‘You have to be here on this day, at this time, and you do this many hours’. Again, that can be a lot like employment. For some people, they really love that, but for others, especially with energy-limiting conditions, chronic pain, fluctuating conditions, you can’t really say how you’re going to be on Monday in two weeks’ time. So, there needs to be more flexibility across the board, I think.

You think that’s key, then, to tackling this—the flexibility.

I think so. Like we said, it’s a few areas, but yes, absolutely, it's making sure that flexibility isn’t just about, ‘You can work flexible hours’; it’s about your location, reduced hours and things like that. But it's also those sorts of opportunities as well, making sure that they’re flexible, but making sure that the support in place is more and not less, that there is more support for us that, again, is flexible to our needs, that isn’t one-size-fits-all, that isn’t, ‘You're excluded if you’ve already got degree-level qualifications’ and things like that. Angharad raises an excellent point that many of us change our trajectory in our career. I changed mine because of my health. I used to work in marketing and PR; I would work 12-hour days and things like that. I have, probably, five usable hours every day now rather than 12 or 14. So, it’s really making sure that the support is there as well.

With that in mind, in some of the evidence we’ve gathered, we’ve looked at the growth of self-employment and—what’s the other word I’m looking for—freelancing, and, obviously, there’s flexibility there. Do you see that almost as a thing that people are being pushed into, that, ‘Well, if you want that flexibility, set up your own business or do something online’, and that it's almost quite dismissive, really? But is that something that could be seen to help with this? Is the support that's out there, to allow people who might say, ‘Well, actually, I could become a consultant’—? We spoke with one individual who was disabled due to the 7 July bombings, and I don’t use this word very often, but it was very inspirational to hear his story and how he’s turned his life around, just as it is to hear from you three today, really, and I just wanted to get your opinions on that, then.

I'd like to come in on that, if I can. So, yes, we know that many disabled people choose those freelance or self-employed options, because they do offer the flexibility that they need that too many employers just don't allow, but there are other issues there as well. We hear this a lot. I've got lots of friends in this area. I used to do freelance work. I ended up having to move back in with my parents because of invoices not being paid on time, and things like that, but there's also the issue around that there's no sick pay and there's no holiday pay and things like that. So, if you're self-employed or freelance and your health takes a further turn and you can't work, you don't necessarily have that support in place that you would have in a place of employment. So, again, I think that can contribute to our disability pay gap as well, but I think, yes, again, it just sort of lends a bit of evidence to our call, really, that disabled people need more support in place, and that includes financial support as well as the other schemes and things like that, but, yes, we need more support and not less.

Isabel.

Just as well to add that self-employment isn't an option for everybody. It can be really stressful and lonely, and not everyone has the skills, the capacity or the ideas to be self-employed. You can't expect someone to just come up with an idea and become self-employed, so that's an issue there with the promotion of self-employment as an alternative to employed work.

Angharad.

I think, as well, people don't understand the level of accessibility that there isn't in self-employment. There are a lot of things like doing your own taxes, and if you can't do that—like in my case, the tax forms aren't accessible at all. And the invoice—. The things that you use like QuickBooks, or whatever they're called, they're not accessible. Things that you need in place, like specialist equipment: you can't really get much Access to Work when you're self-employed. It makes no difference. I tried going self-employed, but another thing is—as voluntary work was brought up previously—our time as disabled people is expected to be given for free, so people will not pay you.

I suppose that leads me on to my last question, really. We've heard from Learning Disability Wales about the need for more access to supported employment support and how this shouldn't be limited to those between the ages of 16 and 25, and I agree with that. If we look at employment, we heard in some evidence sessions that they were helping children in school, and they were like, 'No-one's ever asked us what we want to do for a living when we leave school, because they just assume that we can't do anything.' And I think that's quite sad, really. I just wanted to get your views on that, really, in terms of that supported employment support. Angharad, or Dee.

Could you repeat the question, sorry?

Yes. I'm sorry, as someone who has to subtitle my own videos, I know how difficult it is to understand when I speak, so sorry about that.

No, it's not that. It's my brain capacity with getting towards the afternoon now, so I'm getting a bit forgetful.

No problem. It's mainly with supported employment support. Learning Disability Wales has said that this needs to be rolled out more, for better access to it, and also that it shouldn't be limited to those between the ages of 16 and 25, and I was just keen to know your thoughts on that, then.

Yes. So, I think with a lot of the schemes and systems in place over, particularly, the last 15 years, there's a fear of them among the disabled community—not all, but a lot of us are scared of these, due to the hostility that disabled people have faced. There's fear of sanctions, so things like universal credit and things like that. If you earn over, you have to pay it back and you get sanctioned. If you don't attend appointments, you get sanctioned. So, there's fear, I think. Whatever comes in place, again needs to be fully co-produced. We need to make sure that things aren't being delivered in silos and that, again, as many people are made aware of these schemes as humanly possible. And, yes, just making sure that they are fully co-produced as well, making sure that—. Because disabled people are experts in our own experience, so we need to have our voices heard and our experiences heard and learnt from. There are going to be some disabled people who have had excellent experiences; we need to learn from them. There are going to be people who have had average experiences or terrible experiences. So, we need to make sure that they all have the chance to feed in to future schemes that are there to help us all.

[Inaudible.]—because I want Sioned Williams to ask some questions. So, Sioned, please ask what you are able to in the last five minutes.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, all, for coming this afternoon. As we know, the disability rights action plan should be published soon. What are the key things in there that you'd like to see? So, if you could say, 'This has to definitely be in this action plan', what really needs to be prioritised as those key actions on employment? And do you think that there should be a target, that the Welsh Government should set itself a target to reduce the employment gap?

Who wants to go first? I think Isabel.

One thing that it would be fantastic to see would be multi-year grant funding for disabled people's organisations. Our survey and focus group showed that those who felt happiest in their workplace were employed in the third sector, but sustainable funding for those roles can be really problematic, especially with smaller organisations and disabled people's organisations. So, job security would allow disabled people and people with long-term health conditions to flourish and continue working, and it would also reduce the problems faced by the organisations because they could continue to support their staff and their beneficiaries in the long term.

Thank you. Dee.

I think we need to be quite radical with this because, as I said before, if everything that had been in place before worked really, really well then we wouldn't be having this inquiry, we wouldn't have had the 'Locked out' report, we wouldn't have had the taskforce. So, I think there's scope here to look at a universal basic income for disabled people and devolving benefits as well, because that is, again, an extreme barrier to us, especially when it's health related. You're trying to navigate employment and work, you're also trying to navigate the health system, which is devolved here in Wales, and you're then trying to navigate a benefits system that is controlled by Westminster, so it becomes very disjointed very quickly. So, I think there's potential here to devolve benefits, but actually ensure that disabled people have enough to live on, with their additional costs as well.

I hope it's come up from somebody else, but the average additional cost for a disabled person to live the same quality of life as a non-disabled person is over £1,000 a month. So, when you've had the narrative that we are scroungers, that we're workshy, we're this, we're that—all of the awful stuff—that doesn't ever take into account that it costs us so much more just because we're disabled. So, again, we need more support, not less. We need to ensure that the needs of disabled people who cannot work at all or cannot be an apprentice or cannot volunteer, that they are supported to thrive, not just survive. Things like that.

I think as well that it's looking at mandatory social model of disability training and accountability for businesses, especially if they're in receipt of Welsh Government funding. And, again, publishing those disability rights taskforce recommendations as soon as possible as well.

Thank you. Angharad, did you want to add anything?

Yes. I think that accessibility needs to be at the forefront, especially for those who are in receipt of any sort of funding. I find I go to access jobs or websites and I can't access them with a screen reader. They don't read, and yet they claim to be Disability Confident and their website doesn't work. Take the Welsh Government, for example. I tried to apply for a role with an MS and the form—I don't know why they're still even using the forms, they're so outdated—wasn't accessible to me. The website was, but the form wasn't. If there's any sort of funding involved, the Government need to hold them accountable.

So, really, we're talking about some basic disability standards here, aren't we—

Very basic. The basics aren't being met.

—that should be enforced, yes, and mandated, as you've said. Thank you so much.

And in the physical environment, as well, Sioned. I've moved into Newport city centre, thinking it would be more accessible, but if I need to go that way behind me, there are no dropped kerbs. I cannot get around without the support of my husband. So, again, if there was a job over there, how do I get there independently? It's about prioritising our independence as well.

If I may just add a little bit, it's about intersectionality as well. That's really important in any plan that comes out. It's things like disabled women being twice as likely to experience domestic abuse and we're more likely to experience sexual assault. There are all of these different things that aren't really recognised by society, because we're sort of seen as society adjacent, so it needs to be fully intersectional and recognise all of our needs as well.

Thank you. Could I just ask you specifically on the changes you'd like to see in relation to the equality impact assessments? Yes, Isabel.

So, I think it will be really important that these are co-produced. Again, co-production has been mentioned a few times. They need to be co-produced. And make sure that they are properly resourced, so that they are actually worth something, so that they can be implemented.

Thank you. And then—

I think we've run out of time, so I think we're going to have to send you the last two questions, and we're very happy if there's anything further you want to add, but we're not going to get the next contributors in before we literally lose the committee transmission. So, sorry about that, Sioned.

Really appreciate all of you coming today, and you will get a transcript, and in addition to that, I'll ask somebody to send you the last two questions, okay?

We are now going to take a very short break, just to enable the next witnesses to come into the room, and so we'll start again in about five minutes.

So, for our final session this afternoon, I'm very pleased to welcome Rosie Cribb, representing Social Firms Wales, and thank you very much indeed for your paper, and Richard Welfoot, from the Merthyr institute for the blind. Welcome, both of you.

Thank you.

Joel James is going to start off with questions.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I suppose I just wanted to get a bit of a better idea in terms of how the organisations you support, how they go about employing disabled people, really, because some of the stuff we've heard, for example, about the Disability Confident scheme, is that some organisations can have level 1 or level 2 for that without actually employing any disabled people whatsoever, really. I just wanted to get a better idea about how you go about that, really. We've obviously heard about accessibility issues with the job application, with the interview process, even with websites, and I'm just keen to—. So, Rosie, I don't know if you want to go first.

Yes, sure. So, just for context, really, Social Firms Wales represents social firms, which are one form of social enterprise, which is defined by 25 per cent or more of the workforce having a disability or other barrier to work. The movement started—it was a European movement that came, really, in vogue, I suppose, about 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Social Firms Wales was set up about 20 years ago, and, at that time, there was Social Firms England, Social Firms Scotland and Social Firms Northern Ireland. Actually, Social Firms Wales is the only existing support agency now for social firms in the UK.

Really, we've become quite flexible in our interpretation, because, when it first started, we used to say that 50 per cent of the workforce should have a disability or otherwise, but, actually, what we've seen over time is that that's been really, really hard for social businesses to sustain. It is an expensive thing to do to create supported employment for disabled people. But we've got about 115 members now, in Wales, all across Wales, and they're really quite diverse in their size and range.

So, a social firm isn't actually a legal structure, it's more of an ethos and a values-based social enterprise. So, for example, one of our newest members is Stiwdio 37 in Pontypridd. They create paid work placements for autistic young adults and they provide about 20 work placements a week and they're a really amazing, thriving social enterprise. They have a woodwork shop and they're very innovative, they've got a 3D printing workshop and they're making disabled gadgets out of plastics. And their problem is that they have the paid work placements, but they don't have anywhere for their people to move on to after six months, because their ethos is to try and upskill people and prepare them for work, but the problem is that there aren't the jobs for them to then go to. So, it's quite sad, because often people end up going backwards and perhaps remaining at home.

So, there are challenges. But then we've got other social firms—. We are quite a big employer as a sector, across Wales; I'm actually mapping our members at the moment, so I will have some figures for you about how many people we do actually employ—I would say it's well into the hundreds across Wales—and then we provide lots more volunteering and training placements as well. A lot of it, actually, is about that work preparation and that individualised employment opportunity, which—. It's so rare to find employers that will actually give people that time and opportunity, so that's why social enterprises and social firms are really vital in the spectrum of support. And I very much see it as a sort of—. It's often the entry-level opportunity for people where the aim is, of course, hopefully, one day, they might get a job in the open labour market, or a paid job of some sort. But there is a real spectrum and diversity of models. So, Richard, obviously, is one of our members, Merthyr institute for the blind, so maybe you could actually talk about, in practice, what it's like for you in your organisation.

Yes. Thank you, Rosie. We're unique, I suppose, in lots of things. One of the main things is that we've been going for a long time, since 1923, so, for 101 years, we've been employing disabled people, starting off with people who were blind and partially sighted; now, we're a pan-disability organisation. Over the years, the employment Acts have changed, so we're now delivering as a supported business, a bit like the old Remploy type of business, but with a lot less funding in that respect. But we're a commercial environment that has a manufacturing woodworking unit and also an environment that delivers regional, local and UK-wide contracts for central Government. So, we're delivering the Restart programme at the moment, which is to get people back into work. That's increasingly being populated by people with disabilities. Although the Work and Health programme is still going, I believe that that's finishing some time next year. So, we need to have, really, an opportunity to set up a new programme that allows disabled people to get back into work.

You've got a problem at the moment, with an ageing workforce, where more people are becoming unhealthy, let's say, or have health conditions thrust upon them just because of their age. We are expected to work longer and we're not making allowances for that and putting support in place to allow not just individuals but employers as well to have the confidence to take these people on. Now, we're biased in as much as our organisation is focused primarily on employing people with disabilities and health conditions. We've been doing that for a long time. Over the last 30 years, we've probably, on the employment and training programmes, employed and supported 5,000 to 6,000 people. We're currently employing 52 people, of which 80 per cent have a disability or health condition. So, we're one of those outliers, but we've got a massive amount of experience, along with some other organisations like ourselves throughout Wales and the UK, who have that experience of working with disabilities and people with disabilities ourselves by direct employment, and also working with employers to help encourage them to support the idea, initially, of taking on a person with disabilities and allaying their fears with human resources, discrimination, all those sorts of things, and giving them the support. Now, at the moment, you've got various pockets of funds that don't really hit the nail on the head. There's a hell of a lot of work that needs to get done before an individual is exposed to an employer and there's support the employer needs to have to be able to be convinced that they would want to entertain taking a person with disabilities on. And then, when you marry them up, the job itself might need to be carved slightly to allow this person with a disability to be able to function in that environment, there might be reasonable adjustments and other adjustments required of the employer to be able to make it work, and then the ongoing support of the individual, certainly in the early months of their employment, to be there, even if it's just at the end of a telephone, to support that individual and the employer, that everything is going to be staying there for the year after, the year after, the year after. So—. Sorry.

No, no. Sorry, I didn't want to—. But, with that in mind then, how do you slot in, then, and work with other organisations that provide that, like Careers Wales? Do you work closely with them, the employment champions then as well?

At the moment, we're linked in with the employment champions on a couple of committees. The employment champions that you've got—the Welsh Government ones—at the moment, they are figureheads. But I'm not sure exactly whether we've got an idea of—. The fact that you've put them in place, what are we getting out—? What we were thinking we were going to get out of it and what have we got out of it? Because I think it's a big ask for those champions to be related directly to employment outcomes, because they're facilitators, are they not, in the whole scheme of things. So, it's understanding, yes, it's a great idea to have those people in place to be able to market whatever Welsh Government has got—ideas coming forward and going on in the future—to scoop up the people that, like ourselves, who will want to be involved in that and how we can then formulate a programme that might fit the purpose that you want. And that's the key, if the Welsh Government want to have an attack on the unemployment of disabled people, understanding that there's a massive range, and a massive range from people who are young, who are in school, who need to raise their aspirations, to those who have been entrenched on benefits, who, again, need to raise their aspirations and be convinced that work is beneficial to them and they'd be better off in work, to those people who are in work at the moment, got an illness and struggling but are not having it addressed effectively with their employer to maintain that employment. It's a big ask. It's not 'one size fits all', but you could put a programme together that would hit most of the buttons and cover, but it does cost money, unfortunately. It's one of those ones where you can't get away from that, and it just depends on how much you want to achieve or try to achieve.

So, with that in mind, then, based on what the Welsh Government is currently doing, what's been your overall experience of that?

My experience is that—. We delivered a programme, five, six, seven years ago, I think. It was called Work Choice, which was a UK Government programme, which allowed Merthyr Tydfil Institute for the Blind and other organisations to fill that gap that I was describing, hopefully utilising their skills and experience to support the people in that massive range of disability and whatever they were in their work environment or work life. We've also delivered direct European funding projects as well, which were very, very well supported, but they were niche. One was JobSense. I'm not sure if anyone knows about it. It was for people with hearing and sight impairments. That was niche. You've got the inclusive apprenticeships that are going on at the moment now. They are, again, niche, for a certain category of age and what have you. So, they're very well suited and hit the mark, and probably get some good outcomes from it, but there are a million other people who are not being covered, and perhaps that needs to try to be addressed. It’s not an easy conundrum to sort out, but if you understand that there’s this much to do, we can’t cope with that, we can try this much, is there a way of doing that through a programme?

Thank you, Chair.

Okay, very good. Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. There are a few questions I want to ask that are really about the sort of support and employment rights. Just one thing that followed on from one of the comments that you made. You talk about that there’s quite a lot of work to be done before a worker is exposed to an employer. This implies that there are real difficulties in employers actually understanding and adapting to the needs of people they may be interviewing for employment. What if you just expand a little bit on that? Because when you talk about a worker being exposed to an employer, it starts from the presumption that there’s an enormous hurdle. Can you just tell me about that particular hurdle of employers' understanding of what is expected of them?

Yes. Me again.

I think this is yours.

Thanks, Mick. Well, most employers in Wales are SMEs, most of them are not necessarily set up to take in disabled people, most of them will need some—. First of all, they might like the idea of taking on a disabled person, but they’d need some convincing. They would need to know that they’ve got support in doing that. ‘What happens if something goes wrong? Where’s my insurance? Where’s my safety net? How can I ensure that I've got an organisation that I’m dealing with that is going to look after my interests as well as the individual's?’

That is the same almost with the individual themselves. You’ve got to get that trust with them to be able to understand the individual, to be able then to market that individual to an employer. And because everything is—. You can’t tar everyone with the same brush, they’re not the same people. Every person with a learning disability is not the same. Everyone with a sight impairment is not the same. You have to take each individual job with each individual employer and that individual candidate for that job, and that’s the task.

It doesn’t always work, but if you put enough effort in beforehand, there’s a good chance that it’ll work, they’ll stick, and there’ll be a long and prosperous employment opportunity for that individual. Plus the fact, if it works, you can go back to that employer, which we’ve done many times, and say, ‘Look, do you want another one?’ Some employers have actually come back to us; we’re their first port of call. They don’t go through their usual routes, they come back to MTIB or other disability employment charities and say, ‘You did us well then, you supported us, have you got another client?’, and then that encourages them.

The other thing is, obviously, we’ve done a lot of people advocating, employer advocating, and saying, ‘Look, this is what’s happened to us, here are a lot of case studies’, so those individuals can say, ‘With that employer it worked, do you know that employer?’, and, yes, they’re aware of them, whoever that may be, and then they’ve endorsed the support that we’ve given, the individuals that we’ve supported.

What they don’t want is you throwing anyone at them and then it failing. And we don’t want that, because it doesn’t help the disabled individual, it certainly doesn’t help the relationship with the employer, and ultimately it doesn’t meet the criteria of whatever programme you’re delivering. So, those are the main issues.

You’re obviously describing quite a substantial hurdle to overcome. Learning Disability Wales has called for a national job coaching strategy, hasn’t it? Can you tell us a little bit more about what is probably required with regard to that? Clearly, it is something that you are doing. Clearly, it’s really important that, where you have employers that have been through this who’ve become advocates themselves, they explain, ‘Look, this isn’t actually quite the hurdle it could be, et cetera, there are benefits from this.’ What needs to be done or what recommendation would you make in respect of the sort of support that is needed to develop better coaching and support for persons with disability?

Go on. You can go, and then I'll go.

Learning disabilities—. Job coaching is a part of any assimilation of a new job. Learning Disability Wales will be focusing on job coaching because most people with a learning disability would need quite intensive job coaching over a period of time, and that's understandable, so that's why they're advocating that, understandably. But there are lots of other people with other disabilities who will not need the same amount of job coaching; it'll be more than just job coaching. It might be just getting people to make sure they get to work on time, or maybe travelling to work, and things like that, and how they get to work. But the job coaching aspect is something that is an intrinsic part, certainly with people with learning disabilities, because they have a problem learning and keeping information, and there's maybe a lot of repetition that goes on there as well.

Can I just come in there for a minute, Rich? There's some feedback that I've had, talking to people with learning disabilities. I've done some consultations recently, and they have told me that, when they go into jobs, whether it's a voluntary job or otherwise, often they're not given the opportunity to be challenged. So, for example, someone working in a charity shop not being allowed to have a go on the till, because there's an assumption that they won't be able to do it, or because there's not enough people there to support them and help them. So, that kind of thing is quite common. And people's experiences of jobs, after lockdown, having had a job, and then it being taken away from them and the employers never getting in touch with them again. I think there's something about perhaps employers not always taking the jobs that seriously, potentially.

I think, again, the other thing I'll mentioned is, when you manage to get an employer to take on an individual, they might have done a bit of placement training with them, the job coaching element then will have been identified. And I think, with any individual that starts with a new employer, there'll automatically be some sort of job coaching, whether that gets done externally, like most of the job coaching does with people with learning disabilities, or whether it's part of an internal peer job coaching/training, then it's part of that work that has to go on in the first three to six months. But with people with learning disabilities, that might have to start earlier and last a lot longer, because of their particular concerns.

We at Social Firms Wales are in support of the strategy, and having more coverage over Wales, because, over the years, we've seen supported employment working really successfully, especially the Engage to Change project that Learning Disability Wales ran, and the legacy of that, and the success with actually getting young people into employment. So, it would be really nice to see that rolled out, but also for older age groups—I know that the cut-off of, I think, 25 was a bit of a frustration for some of the people that I spoke to—and also with a connection to social enterprise.

I am here representing the social enterprise sector, but we've got nearly 3,000 social enterprises in Wales, and they're much more likely to create opportunities for disabled people, and I think that there needs to be a stronger link between social enterprise and supported employment. I'm relatively new into this job, and I feel that there's an opportunity for us to come together more as a sector, to share best practice and opportunities. Sometimes, just having come into the sector, it can feel a bit uncoordinated, but I sort of accept that that might be because I'm quite new into the field as well. But I know Disability Wales are doing things, and Learning Disability Wales. And because physical disability is so different to learning disability, sometimes I think it's hard to find one fix for everything. But I just think there's a good opportunity to learn from each other and come up with some really good solutions for some of these issues.

The legislative framework for employers is fairly clear. Is the issue that the framework isn't strong enough, or is it really the work that needs to be done to coach and support employers in understanding what their responsibilities are?

I think, with employers—. I speak as an employer as well. Although we're predisposed to taking people and positively discriminating in favour of disabled people, in as much that we would want a disabled person to be taken on rather than someone who doesn't have a disability, employers generally, when they want to take someone on, they want someone who can do the job. And if they have a preconception that a disabled person or someone with a health condition is going to be less of a person in doing that job and reaching the goals and performance targets and quality criteria that they require, then they're going to be reluctant to take that person on. I've had some employers worrying about even interviewing a person who has openly stated that they have a disability, just to come to the interview process, because they couldn't make the adaptions or the reasonable adjustments just for the interview process. They were worrying about that. So, that's the extreme, obviously, but understanding what their fears are and how we can allay their fears and convince them that it's not a scary thing.

People do have rights, like everyone else, and disabled people do have rights, but it's no different to if I contracted a condition today and I needed those rights tomorrow. It's no different for any of us, really. It’s just not being afraid of it. We should have procedures, processes to adopt in every situation, and we should adhere to them. The problem you do have with some SMEs is that their HR is not as up to date as perhaps they would need, or as strong. We've often supported them with those sorts of things, putting policies in place and helping them with that, so that they get the confidence that they've actually got a bible to go to, that, 'If this happens, we can deal with it in this place.' Or that they've got a referral back to an organisation like ourselves, like Social Firms Wales, that can point them in the right direction and how to deal with it.

It's having that hand-holding, I think, approach for the employer as well as the employee. From some of the conversations I've had, when people start to change their attitudes and reduce their prejudice, it's actually through experience, the experience of actually working alongside someone with a disability. Someone was telling me, quite a severely disabled colleague of mine, she was saying that when she worked in a particular job, on an evening out, the finance manager said to her, 'To be honest, I just didn't think you'd be able to do the job, really.' And she'd started doing really, really well in the job and had won employee of the month, and he'd had a couple of drinks and it came out, and she said, 'It was lucky I wasn't writing it down, what he was saying to me.' But it just went to illustrate how, for him, for the rest of his life now, he will have a different opinion, because he'll have seen her achieve what she's done and be really good and skilled in her job.

So, I think we need to do more of that. We need to have role models and we need to portray people thriving within different kinds of jobs, not just stereotypical jobs, but I think there could be a lot that could come out of that. And I think also, the person that I was speaking to admitted that it takes a lot to take on someone who's quite severely disabled in terms of the time, the extra time and capacity as a business that you need. So, just as an example, it could take 10 hours to train someone, a non-disabled person, but for whatever reason, it might take 20 hours to train someone with a disability. So, as most of our businesses in Wales are small and medium-sized businesses, how do we help them to address some of those concerns that are no doubt quite big barriers?

Okay. All important points. I'll call on Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much. I'm going to ask my questions in Welsh, just to ensure that you have the headsets on. The disability employment gap here in Wales is huge. It is more than 30 per cent here in Wales, more than it is in the UK. So, what has been happening in the past, that hasn't worked. What should we do, in your opinion, to change that situation, please? Thank you.

I think it's a combination of things. Like everything, you can't put your finger on one thing. We've got an ageing population, we've got industries that have declined, and we've got a lot more people who are technically supposed to be able to work up to 67, as it is, and probably going to go up to 68 and 70. And we have more people on sickness benefit or disability benefit. That has been as a result of all that. I'm not 100 per cent sure whether that is the absolute reason for the extra 30 per cent, but the stuff that we were doing before—. Perhaps you could say, 'What have we not done right in the past?' Some of the things we were doing in the past were pretty good, not enough perhaps, but we don't seem to be doing that so much now because we've had 14 years of the disparity between the two Governments—the UK and Welsh Governments. I think there's always an issue there. Now we've got an opportunity, a chance, to be together on what the progress can be for disabled people across the UK—obviously not Scotland—as there's the new programme coming out now, which was Universal Support under the Tory Government; now it's called Connect to Work. That's one with people with disabilities under the supported employment model. That's part of the scheme of programmes that you could probably be putting together. That's going to be a UK one. Obviously, Wales will have their allotted funding for it. So, that can be in the mix. Whether that gets delivered directly by councils or the Welsh Government, I'm not sure, but that will be a start. But that's only a relatively small niche of people that are in one particular group.

Until you have a consistent programme that allows the providers that can deliver those skills, like the small and medium-sized enterprises, like the social firms, like the likes of MIB and others that can actually bring that programme into place and bring others into the space as well, and then hopefully bring down that gap—. It's not impossible. It's not rocket science, either. We have been doing in the past various things that were right, but then they got either cut, not expanded or changed into something else that was the flavour of the day. And then, all of a sudden, those disparities get bigger and bigger and bigger and we find out where we are now. We're looking at now and saying, 'How did we get to there?' Well, we got there because of all the other little things that happened and they weren't priorities at the time.

Diolch. Rosie.

We do have a lot of issues in Wales, obviously, compared to England. The poverty, I think, is tied up with those figures. I've done a lot of work in Blaenau Gwent and you see first-hand the higher levels of disability, a lot of entrenched generational worklessness. So, there are a lot of other things tied up around that, I think. But there are also systemic issues around the lack of expectation, I think, and aspiration amongst a lot of young people, children, disabled children, children with learning disabilities. They don't ever get asked the question, 'What do you want to be when you grow up?', even to the extent where—. I don't know a huge amount about this, but I'm not sure how strong the careers service is for disabled children and young people and whether there's enough emphasis on that. There's obviously a problem with families—that it's not always in their interest for their adult child to work because the whole family is often dependent on those benefits, particularly in very deprived areas. So, that's been cited to me as quite a major barrier.

Sorry. Do you have any evidence of that?

Have you got the evidence on that?

It's anecdotal—so, it's with an organisation in Rhondda Cynon Taf that I work with. But that has become quite a barrier, and also there's a fear, sometimes, because people are afraid for their adult child and the risks that come with independence and going to work. So, some of the systemic changes, I think—. I feel that education could also really help in terms of—. This project that Disability Wales ran, going into primary schools, had a disabled staff member going in and working with young people to build their awareness of disability, and actually going around shops and doing access audits. And these children, apparently, were getting really strident about the whole, 'Oh, well your access isn't good enough'. Going around to shops and actually really raising that awareness, I think, could be quite pivotal at a young age. So, I'd love to see more of that kind of activity.

Okay. Thank you very much. Just a final question from me, if I may. What's your view of the Disability Confident scheme? Do you have experience of that? We've heard evidence that it is not working and that it's not good enough. So, what's your view on that, please, if you have any views or experience? Thank you very much. Richard first—oh, sorry, Rosie.

Well, I'll just say that Richard's got a lot of experience within their organisation on this. What I would say is that I've heard anecdotally that it can be a bit tokenistic, but, at the same time, I think it's really important that we have something like that.

Thank you, Rosie. Yes, we were involved right at the beginning with Disability Confident because we were linked in with the Department for Work and Pensions on a supported business issue. And, all of a sudden, they brought out this Disability Confident and wanted us and the other 52 supported businesses in the UK to take this up and market it to various organisations. Yes, you're quite right—I think the feedback that you've had—. It is a badge. We are a Disability Confident leader because we're employing people as well and we assess other organisations. That assessment process is not prescribed, really—it's how we believe that someone should be dealt with in an organisation and what their processes and procedures are. So, it's not that onerous to become a Disability Confident leader, I believe. The good thing with it is that people have—. It's marketed, so you could market something on the back of it, but it's generally not—. Well, not understanding—. If it was for marketing purposes to get the word out, then it's done its job, to a certain degree. But if it's going to get people into work more, then I would advocate that we haven't seen that, and are unlikely to see that just in the form it's in now. But that's not to say that it hasn't done something.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Fair enough. I think that's probably a fair assessment, based on what we've heard so far. You're obviously doing some great work—these 115 organisations that are members of the group of companies who are employing 25 per cent disabled people, which is, actually, the profile of the population, so they're only just employing a snapshot of the population. We've heard some disgraceful things earlier today, from people who were taken on with reasonable adjustment for one level of disability, but as soon as they acquired another one, they were told, 'Oh, no, that was only for that one. We can't accommodate you know. Out you go'—probably illegal, no trade unions involved. So, how are we going to ratchet up the change, really? Particularly, I think we should be concerned that public sector bodies are not yet engaging fully in this, despite the well-being of future generations Act. We've only got one level 3 local authority on the disability aware—

Is that Vision Products—

Pembrokeshire.

Oh, Pembrokeshire, yes.

Yes. And then there are three health boards, plus Public Health Wales. That's not good enough. There are 46 bodies, plus some more, who are signatories to the well-being of future generations Act. How are we going to get that change that we need? You're doing great stuff and there are lots of interesting anecdotes here, but how are we going to turn this corner?

I feel that something more ambitious is maybe needed in terms of resourcing something like this, and it needs to be meaningful and it needs to not be a tick-box. It needs to have some sort of—. I don't mean a hugely formal assessment process for businesses or providers to go through, but at least to have some sort of check-in once a year, to say, 'Are you actually employing disabled people across health boards?'

How many?

Yes, and tiers, maybe. I mean, it needs some sort of structure around it that is not just tokenistic, and I guess that does require investment and it requires someone to do that piece of work.

The other thing is, as I was talking with PeoplePlus earlier, and they've got—I don't know if you've heard of it—the social recruitment covenant that they're rolling out in England, and they've been quite successful with that. They've got Amazon and Tesco and about 300 employers now on board, and it's a sort of commitment, a charter, that they're going to actually employ people. So, it's much more practically focused, I guess. And they're doing well with that and they're interested in bringing something like that into Wales. So, I don't know whether, because they've already done quite a lot of work with that, there's any opportunity to look at what they've done. But I think that ambition is needed, and some sort of resourcing behind it, to make it meaningful, with support for the employer as well to help them to achieve that.

Sure. But that sounds like that's what you guys do, just from listening to you.

We're very much around social firms and social enterprise, so the not-for-profit sector. So, we don't necessarily work at the moment with private companies or health boards and the public sector.

Okay. So, to what extent will the UK Government's Employment Rights Bill, which includes the introduction of mandatory disability pay gap reporting, have an impact on tightening up what's going on in companies and also start to close the disability employment gap in Wales?

Probably very little, because—

Why?

Well, I believe—I'm not 100 per cent sure—it doesn't really relate to SMEs, because it's only the larger organisations it relates to.

You're probably right—you've got to employ a certain number of people for it to apply to you.

That's the conundrum there. Yes, I don't think it'll make a massive difference in that respect.

Okay. But will it not have an impact on larger companies, though—

Absolutely. Yes.

—who are also larger in—? I appreciate SMEs are the main employers.

Yes, if they have to do it. A lot of the larger companies do have a social well-being champion or a community benefits champion, and they quite often have these programmes. Rosie just highlighted one now, where people come in, they give them a six-month employment opportunity, and then they bring another load of people in for six months. But where does that lead on to a job later on, and a sustained job or career path for the rest of your life? That's the difficulty.

I believe you need a strategy that covers the whole cradle to grave, and to see what we're going to do when we pick up children at 15, 16. Are we going to do it before then, when they are even younger, to give their parents and themselves aspirations of getting a job, even though they don't perhaps think they're going to be there just yet? There's a long way. I've got a nephew who we didn't think was going to be able to hit certain milestones. Now he has and he's gone to university and he's done a degree, but then, because of the other issues that he's got, he's not got the opportunities now for work, and he's struggling with that. So, he's regressed a little bit, and that's something that we don't want. We want a solution for someone: 'Right, once you've done that—'. We've got the same thing where we've got primary school, secondary school, further education, university or whatever, or apprenticeships, but then we're left to our own devices after that and there's nothing there. There's no support for employers, no support for individual organisations to help those individuals going there. And the hard thing is bringing it all together into a proper network where, if someone's at this part of the stage, it's, 'Right, that's going to happen. You're going to have that opportunity. When you get to here, you're going to have that opportunity. You may or may not take it up, but at least you'll have that opportunity and there'll be somewhere to go.'

Okay. So—

I think we also need—sorry—

Go ahead.

—to create something that people can actually tap into. So, I know there's lots and lots of talk around social value and community benefits, but what we're hearing, as a social enterprise sector, is people saying, 'We want to work with you and we want to procure from you, but where are you? How do we find out what's going on?' And I think that that is reflective of, sometimes, the will is there, but it's like, if you're a busy company and you just want a solution, how do we make it easy? How do we provide simple solutions?

How do we insert the social firms, the firms like MTIB, who give a product into Welsh Government public sector procurement?

Okay. I know Sioned Williams has got some questions around this, so go ahead, Sioned.

Thank you, Chair. It sounds like, and you've suggested in your evidence to us, that you're calling for some kind of strategy for employment that's connected and joined-up in Wales, like you said, from the cradle to the grave, so that it's not just looking at some cohorts of people and their specific needs in particular. So, do you feel that there's enough ambition at present? Are there enough resources at present? Is there enough co-ordination at the moment? And do you feel that the Government should be setting targets to close that employment gap?

I think targets would be difficult at this stage, potentially, but, yes, I do believe that more co-ordination between the different providers and the different intersections of disability, for example, would be a really positive step. So, although I am in support of the supported employment strategy, for example, it needs to also look at the other provisions that exist and how we can all work together more successfully.

I think we've got ad-hoc pots of support and programmes and pilots and things like that that are testing the waters. A lot of them have done well and have proven and given evidence to any future strategy going forward, but the problem you do have is that you've got a large pan-disability group of people in Wales who have disabilities ranging from people with learning disabilities, physical disabilities, to those who have got mental health problems. A lot of the people with learning disabilities and physical disabilities may have mental health problems as well, and it's that conundrum of being able to deliver a service or a programme that hopefully covers everyone in one way, shape or form, and that's the difficulty. That's not easy, but you can bite at it and get some of that sorted out, I think, and at least put something in place, but it's going to take a bit of effort, unfortunately.

I think also some central kind of point, a sort of directory, almost, of what provision is out there. I know local areas can be quite well networked. For example, I was in north Wales last week and their work around learning disability employment is really strong, and I said, 'Is there a list of what provision is available?', and they sort of said, 'Well, we just kind of all know each other, so we don't really need that.' But, on the other hand, you can't always assume that people do know what's available, and I think sometimes we overlook that, that actually, just something as simple as having a portal of, 'Okay, you've got a disability. What is in your area?'—I'd love to see something like that. There's a rich tapestry of activity across Wales and brilliant work going on, and very individualised, but it's like, how do we weave that all together and work with each other and learn from each other? I know it's easier said than done, but I think something to bring that together would be really good. And also Access to Work, it's got to be said—there's not enough provision there, there's not enough knowledge around it. Lots of people don't know about it, and it's horrendously long, the waiting time. So, it could be a big part of the solution, but it's also part of the problem at the moment as well, I think.

You could almost look at this as a supply-and-demand issue. We've got a supply of lots of disabled people, but we haven't got the demand to give those people jobs generated from those employers, and the employers are the ones we're relying on to take these people on and to change their practices, and that's the key: how do we develop a strategy that covers that? Providers will need to know what's coming along, employers need to know what's coming along, so there's a marketing initiative for that, and to understand where they can go, where they're signposted to link in with organisations that can give them the support and the individuals that have been vetted, and being able to market those individuals to those jobs when they've got them available. There's no guarantee that they will be suitable for some of those jobs. Some of them are just not possible, and it will be on an individual basis whether that individual can slot into that job that has been adjusted to be able to suit that individual disability or health condition. And then there's the ongoing support that that needs, certainly in the first six months, to make sure that that job sticks with the individual and the employer.

Richard, you mentioned earlier the political change that we've seen since the general election at the UK level, so the Welsh Government now will, hopefully, have a more fruitful relationship with the UK Government. What should the Welsh Government prioritise in any discussions with the Westminster Government in terms of what needs to change? Is it something like the Access to Work scheme, for example?

I'll just turn this down, slightly. I don’t think the Access to Work scheme is likely to change. The Access to Work scheme enables people and enables employers as well to have support for individuals when they've achieved a job. It doesn't do that pre-employment work. There are little pockets of things you can apply for. But at the moment, Access to Work has been marketed quite widely, and there's been a lot more take up of it, or a lot more applications. Currently, the applications are taking 26 weeks to be decided upon, so you can imagine an employer waiting 26 weeks to find out whether they can take this individual on—it's not going to happen, is it? Employers also are going to be in the frame of mind of, 'Well, I've got minimum wage, and I've got the extra national insurance contributions—that's going to cost me a lot. I'm worried about that as well as taking any perceived costs on for a disabled person.' All those things are going to be factored in, because a lot of the smaller and medium-sized enterprises are going to be engaged in this area. It's hit MTIB quite considerably, and we're busting a gut to make sure we fulfil that obligation, and we're not going to be losing employment opportunities for people. In fact, we want to try and encourage more.

So, I think it's having a strategy that allows us to think of all the things that we need to cover and saying, 'Are we going to be able to get there? Is it going to take steps to get to that level?' But the encouraging thing is that you've got the parity with Welsh Government and the UK Government, and you could be singing from the same hymn sheet. But my argument to them would be, well, we've got, and Jane mentioned, this disability employment gap, which is much higher in Wales, and there are some special circumstances in Wales, in the infrastructure and how our employment is made up, that means that we've got this gap for disabled people, so we need to deliver a programme. It may not be exactly the same as UK wide, but we need to deliver a programme that, at least, at the very minimum, minimises that gap.

Yes, so that the needs of Wales are considered in these programmes that are funded by the UK Government?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Can I just ask whether you have any examples? You've mentioned good practice in Wales, and perhaps they're not shared in the way that they should be, or it would be beneficial for them to be shared. Are there any international or European programmes that you feel we could learn from here in Wales in terms of reducing those barriers to employment for disabled people?

Rosie.

Well, years ago, I was involved with work, as part of EU funding, going to Prague and Northern Ireland, and I know Scotland have always been quite progressive with a lot of their social enterprise activity. I think there’s a lot going on in Manchester as well at the moment, but, yes, to be honest with you, it’s something I’d really like to look at, to see where the really good practice is going on at the moment. I think in Taiwan as well there’s a lot of stuff going on, so, yes, I’d quite like a study visit there. But, yes, it’s something that I’d quite like to get back to you on, if I could do a bit of research into that and talk to some of my colleagues.

Thank you, and perhaps it’s something the Government could look at when they're working on the strategy that we say that we need. Do you have anything to add, Richard?

No, I don’t have any major, obvious ones that are better than what we’re currently delivering. I know the Scandinavian countries seem to have had it sorted, but it’s not necessarily the case now; that was a number of years ago. But I think the problem is that we’ve tinkered with it many times, and things have come into fashion, out of fashion. If you had a long-term strategy that puts something in place and that the youngsters of today could see that, if they have a disability or a health condition, there is a pathway for them that covers them throughout their employment life, then that would be nirvana to me, but whether we can get to that sooner or later, I don’t know.

Very good. Thank you very much. We’ve run out of time, I’m afraid. If there is any additional evidence of examples that you want to submit, and you were promising to do some analysis of the statistics, I think, Rosie, at the beginning—

Yes.

—of how many people you are employing, that would be really helpful. We’ll be sending you a transcript anyway of your evidence, and you can amend it if it’s not accurate.

So, the next evidence session on this really important subject of disability and employment is on 25 November, in two weeks’ time, where we’ll be taking evidence from the Welsh Ministers, both the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and the Minister for social partnership.

So, in the meantime, I wondered if Members could agree to note three papers on the order paper.

And I’ll now ask you that we now move into private session, under Standing Order 17.42.