Equality and Social Justice Committee

First of all, good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to be here this afternoon and to answer your questions.

I think, when I think about the experiences and skills that I believe that I bring to the role, I have over 20 years' experience of working in the public and voluntary sector here in Wales, and I think that's given me a really enhanced understanding and knowledge of our legislative and policy framework here in Wales, but also the partnerships and the governance arrangements that we have in Wales that enable us to get things done, and knowing how things work in Wales.

In 2015, I was also appointed as the first national adviser for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales, and I think that national public appointment showed how I brought a credibility and legitimacy to a national role. I helped to establish that role. And that role, as well as all of the other work that I do, really had the survivors of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence at the heart of what I did. In that role, I listened to them, their experiences, and made sure that their voice was what I championed here at Welsh Government level, but also with partners, to improve responses and services for individuals and families who had experienced domestic abuse.

But also, in the work that I've done more recently—so, chairing domestic homicide reviews and also developing strategies across Wales—this work has really given me an enhanced and an in-depth understanding of the issues that face older people in Wales. So, a number of the domestic homicide reviews that I've chaired have involved older victims of domestic abuse, and, in undertaking those reviews, I've started to understand what matters to older people in their day-to-day lives, and some of the challenges and issues they experience in terms of having their voices heard, being able to access services, the social isolation and loneliness that they experience, but also the discrimination and prejudice that they experience as older people in terms of transport, living in rural areas, accessibility of services, access to services in the language of their own choice. And I think, when I've looked at all of those experiences together, I feel that they give me a really good foundation for this role.

But also I think I bring some key qualities to the role of the commissioner. So, firstly, as a communicator, I'm somebody who would like to think that I'm quite an effective and articulative communicator—I am a fluent Welsh speaker—but also how I've always listened to individuals, and feed back to them in terms of their experiences and the difference that it's making to my work. I'm experienced in working with the media, and, here in Wales, I'm often called upon to give observations and contribute to both English and Welsh news programmes and current affairs in terms of a range of issues, not just around violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, but around equality, discrimination and rights.

And I think that one of the things that I do is that I bring a genuine interest in people's experiences. I want to hear what's important to people. I want to hear what can make a difference to their lives when things are working well, but, when things haven't worked well, how things could have been improved for them—I'm somebody who has always worked well with people; I spend time and invest time and energy getting to know individuals, what's important to them—and then to also be able to look at how we can work together to actually reach shared outcomes. I think that's really important, thinking about this role in particular, working with older people in our communities across Wales but also with public bodies, with Welsh Government officials, with the Senedd, but also wider partners in other nations across the UK and wider, to really build those relationships and understand how we can work together to enable everybody in Wales to age well.

I think also, when I look back at the work that I've done and my experiences, I bring leadership qualities to this role that I think are really important to be able to set a vision in collaboration and consultation with individuals and then to be really clear about how we're going to meet that vision in Wales to support everyone to age well. I'm somebody who's very resilient and determined, which I think is needed in this role, but also somebody who can be brave and bold in terms of the decisions that are made, and work on an evidence base. So, from listening to older people and their experiences, to be able to bring their voice, to protect and safeguard their rights, and to challenge and not being afraid to challenge when that's needed, I think that's really critical to this role. But I'm also somebody who's really passionate about rights and values, and this role is very much in line with my values around justice, fairness and the rights of older people here in Wales. Also, I think I'm somebody who's ambitious, not necessarily for myself, but for older people in Wales and what together we can achieve for older people, not only in the here and now, but for our future generations.

Well, thank you very much for that very comprehensive answer. You have said that the importance of the older people's commissioner's office is to be a strong advocate for older people in Wales, ensuring their voices are heard and that their rights are upheld. How do you individually see you doing that?

I think one of the things—. Whilst I think it's right to celebrate the work that has been done in Wales around promoting and safeguarding rights by the current commissioner, former commissioners and wider partners, I think there is still really a need to promote and raise awareness of older people's rights. I don't think that our older population as a whole understand and are aware of the rights that they have, and, for individuals, sometimes that self-imposed ageism—people sometimes believe that their rights diminish as they get older, and they don't. I think it's really important for the older people's commissioner to be visible, to be approachable, to be seen in the places where older people live and work and socialise, and to be able to promote those rights, so that raising awareness and people understand and are empowered to actually understand their rights and to be able to challenge them when those rights are not upheld, whether that's within our public services or within their community—so, certainly, visibility and the messaging of the older people's commissioner.

And how we do that is really important, because I think, whilst we can look at campaigns and communications, it's about ensuring those campaigns and communications reach our older people in our communities. And I think one of the challenges is around how we reach older people who are furthest away from those communications. So, how do we look not only at putting posters, information, guidance and information in places where older people are—so, if we're thinking about GPs, pharmacies, community centres, those places where older people live and work and are cared for—but also how we can use some of our regional and national press to reach those individuals? So, thinking about papers, local papers, papers that local authorities would publish that go to every home, so we're not necessarily relying on older people and individuals to go and find that information—it's delivered to them. Can we look at some innovative ways of doing that, thinking about what messages go to every home in Wales and how we can include messages around older people's rights on those, not just for older people, but for their families, for their friends in the community, that can help us raise that awareness? But also what work do we do with our practitioners and our workforce across Wales who are working with older people, whether that's thinking about training or awareness sessions with them? But we really need to embed those rights within our public services in Wales, and how we can do that with partners, working with our public bodies, so that our services do become rights-based services. But, in doing that, being then able to support public services in doing that, but also to scrutinise and challenge them when those rights are not being upheld within our services.

So, I think it's very much around working with older people to understand their experiences and examples of when their rights haven't been upheld, but also when they have been and what's worked well so we can share that good practice and we can use those examples across Wales. So, it's working with older people, working with and alongside our public bodies to encourage and embed those rights-based approaches, but very much around the visibility of the older people's commissioner. For me, it's around being in communities, going to older people, and doing as much as we can to reach those older people who may be furthest away from that information and who are likely to be most at risk of those rights not being upheld.

So, you would envisage having direct contact with lots of older people, some who may be marginalised.

Absolutely. I think it's really important that older people see the commissioner in their communities, in the places where they live, in the places they're cared for—so, if we're thinking about care homes, if we're thinking about residential homes, if we're thinking about hospitals—and for me to be seen and for the team be seen and communicate with older people. And also to think about those—. I think one of the opportunities that the commissioner has is to look at that intersectionality of needs. So, whilst older people are older people, they're not a homogenous group, they will have individual needs. It's about thinking about older people who have additional protected characteristics—those who have a disability, those who identify as LGBT, those who are from black and minority ethnic communities, who, because of the intersectionality of needs, may be facing additional challenges and barriers in accessing services or having their voices heard.

Thank you very much. I'm going to hand over to Joel, but, before I do that, at the beginning of the meeting I should have asked if there were any declarations of interest. No. Okay. Joel, can I hand over to you?

Chair.

Yes.

What's the definition of an older person? Is it still anybody 50 plus? [Laughter.] I'm declaring.

I think Rhian should answer that.

My understanding from the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Act 2006 is that it's defined as 'over 60' in the legislation, as I've seen it. But I stand to be corrected if there's been any amendment since.

As a member of a local council—[Inaudible.]—as '50 plus'. But I will take '60 plus', and then remove my declaration of interest quite happily.

I think what it is as well is it's about thinking not only about those who may be 60 or over now, but thinking about those 50 plus, thinking about who will be the older people of our future generations, because, if we can promote and safeguard rights now, then for those individuals they will also be able to live and age well in the future.

Right. Thank you. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I wanted to ask a series of questions, if I can, so I can get a better idea about your background, if that's possible, and any potential conflicts of interest, and a little bit more then about your work in terms of championing those who face discrimination and that sort of thing. One of the concerns I've had with previous appointments with different commissioners is that they've seemed to come from very political backgrounds, and almost party political. There are former parliamentary candidates, election agents, and I just wanted to get a bit more about yourself. There's no political background with you, then. I know you were in the police force, so you can't be political, but since then.

No, no party political interests. No roles with political parties here in Wales or wider. My background, as you said, I'm from the south Wales Valleys in Wales. I was educated through the medium of Welsh and went to university at Aberystwyth and Cardiff, where I studied law. From there, I went into the police and served for seven years. And whilst within the police service, I had the opportunity to work in a multi-agency team that supported high-risk victims of domestic abuse. That really was the start of a turn in my career. I left the police after seven years' service and went to manage a domestic abuse service, just where I felt that I could make a real difference in terms of the services that were provided. I did that for a number of years.

During that time, I became chief executive of quite a large domestic abuse service that operated in mid Wales and south Wales. We were one of the first services that offered services to male victims of domestic abuse, and also worked holistically as families with children and young people as well. And it was as a result of that work that I became the national adviser for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, after we'd introduced the Act here in Wales.

I did that for a number of years in that advisory capacity, and then decided there was other work that I wanted to look at. As a result of that, I became an independent consultant working in the domestic abuse and sexual violence field. And that's where the work around domestic homicide reviews—working across England and Wales, but the work in particular in Wales, and in particular in the mid and west Wales region—that I've done has really highlighted some of the specific issues facing older people who experience violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

Proportionally, our rates of homicides of older people in mid and west Wales are higher than our population of older people. Some of the issues that have come out through those homicide reviews, as I mentioned earlier, are about how older people who experience domestic abuse don't always recognise that abuse within their relationships, but also how they can experience abuse from family members, which brings with it barriers to disclosure and help-seeking as a result of those relationships, but also, as part of those domestic homicide reviews, how older people's experiences weren't necessarily recognised, how our practitioners don't necessarily look for experiences of abuse. And there are some of the wider issues, then, in terms of access to services, rurality, transport to be able to access those services, and also that social isolation and loneliness, which was really significant in those reviews.

In undertaking those reviews, I've worked with a range of services for older people to examine the contact that they may have had with those individuals, but also to examine why they possibly didn't have contact. Then we've looked at issues such as where services are located, how services communicate. A number of these homicide reviews happened during COVID, so it's thinking about how information became digitalised, and older people didn't have those means to access that information, but also thinking about service models and how accessible they are for older people. That's the work that I've done for the last seven years.

But certainly, for the homicide reviews and the strategy development that I do, a huge part of that work, before I even get to writing the strategy or the report, is around meeting with older people, meeting with their families, meeting with their friends, hearing what's important to them, some of the challenges that they have and the things that they think public bodies should be prioritising in terms of their work. I think the strategy for mid and west Wales has really showed how we've highlighted the voice and experience of older people into that strategy and prioritised responses to older people.

Thanks ever so much for that really comprehensive response. I'm so glad to hear that you've highlighted domestic abuse amongst the elderly, because unfortunately that is a growing issue, and especially financial coercion and everything. And as you mentioned, unfortunately it's normally family members that are responsible.

One of the other questions I wanted to touch upon is around the roles that you do now in terms of any potential conflicts of interest. Do you see anything that you're currently doing that could provide a conflict of interest, and if so, how would you manage that?

I don't believe so. The work that I do now is all in an independent consultant capacity, so wherever I go in to do the role, or where I'm commissioned to do work, that's within an independent capacity. I think working in Wales, as I have done all of my career, you will have established professional relationships, you will know individuals. There will be occasions where I've collaborated with services and worked to influence individuals in terms of their decision making. But I think that is all part of the experience and the knowledge and the qualities that I bring to the role, rather than presenting with any conflict of interest.

I think that, where I have worked particularly with agencies that work with older people, thinking about work that I've done on the domestic homicide reviews where I've actually invited representatives of agencies to be on that panel to ensure that we're constantly thinking about promoting and safeguarding the rights of older people and that older people's experiences are represented on that panel, then they would already be members of stakeholder groups and advisory groups for the older people's commissioner. So, again, whilst those relationships may be there and we might be known to each other, I don't see any of those presenting a conflict of interest.

Thank you. Just a final set of questions. I know from my meetings with the current older person's commissioner that one of the statistics that came up is that she benefits from an almost 35 per cent—. What's the word I'm looking for? A 35 per cent—. People know her. Thirty-five per cent of people who have been polled have heard of the older person's commissioner. It's weird how certain words just don't come out when you're trying to think of them. That's quite a high percentage, actually, especially when you compare it to the future generations commissioner and the children's commissioner. You touched upon it during questions from the Chair about what you would do to try to maintain the profile, but 35 per cent is quite a high percentage. How would you look to match that and almost to increase that awareness? [Interruption.] A 35 per cent awareness rate. That's it, yes. Thank you.

I'm glad it's not just me. [Laughter.] I think the high percentage of awareness is a credit to the current commissioner and also her predecessors in terms of their visibility in the role. As I said in my first response, that visibility is really important to me. For me, I want to be seen in communities. I want people to know who I am, and I want people to know how they can contact me and the team, and that they will get a response in terms of advice, assistance and information, should they need to.

I think that we can do more. In speaking with friends and family members, going through this process, it's very unscientific polling, but a number of them weren't aware of the older people's commissioner. So, it's thinking about what we have done to date that has worked well, and what are the opportunities so that we can increase that awareness, going forward. I was at an event last week, where an older person was saying that we should be seen where older people are. And the example they gave was around car boot sales and places where communities gather. It's thinking about groups within communities or networks that we have in Wales that, yes, we are aware of and we would go to, but thinking outside of that box and thinking about where older people go.

And we will get that information from speaking with older people. Where do they think we should be? But, as I also said, it's thinking about possible new opportunities, what information goes to every household that we could include that information on—those local authority papers that go out to every household. It's thinking about could we look at some of the learning from other areas of work and think about could information go onto pharmacy slips, could information be put out on Royal Mail correspondence.

So, it's thinking about those opportunities that go to every household, as well as the work that has been done around social media and digital and press and media, but we know that that has its own challenges in terms of reaching every older person. And we know that some older people will be very familiar and will want to be engaged with Facebook, X, and all the different platforms that the current commissioner uses, but actually we don't want to leave anybody behind, so we want that information to be available in non-digital formats that can reach every home and community across Wales.

Perfect. Chair, I've got a final question, but I'm happy to move on because of the time.

If you ask the question briefly, and perhaps we can have a fairly brief answer to it.

Perfect. Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to get a better idea of specific examples, because under the previous question from the Chair, you mentioned the work you've done in terms of tackling discrimination and looking after marginalised groups, and I just wanted to get some specific examples, if that's okay, and how they could be interlinked with older people.

Yes, certainly. When I was the national adviser, there was a piece of national work that was done in collaboration with other agencies where I was present at consultations across Wales to meet with victim-survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence. We went out to different communities in Wales. We engaged through community groups, through agencies who had contact with individuals, and we went and met with individuals, and they included specific groups that we established with agencies around BME survivors. We also established groups around male survivors of domestic abuse, but also with survivors of sexual violence separately to survivors of domestic abuse. But also, in work that I've done more recently around developing strategies, I have gone to individuals who have had life-limiting conditions and disabilities, and with their invitation, I've gone to meet with them in their homes and places that they feel safe to be able to speak to me.

In terms of the work around survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence, that resulted in a report that highlighted some of the key issues, barriers and challenges that survivors faced in accessing services. We identified, I think, between 12 and 15 themes—sorry, I don't know that number off the top of my head—that directly fed into the strategy and policy development of the Welsh Government around VAWDASV. Those themes are unfortunately still very prevalent in terms of survivors and their experiences. But also, a piece of work that I was commissioned to do by the Older People's Commissioner for Wales to look at how we could improve responses to domestic abuse for older people involved going to older people, meeting with them, and speaking to them about their experiences—not only of their abuse, but also of trying to access services to support them. And that brought up some really significant themes in terms of housing, in terms of access to services, and around practitioners' understanding of domestic abuse amongst older people.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Over to Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much, and good afternoon, Rhian. I have just one question in this section, because you have answered some of the others. There are a number of groups working with older people, so how do you see yourself collaborating with those groups—those community groups, for example?

Thank you. You’re right, there are so many groups working nationally, working regionally, locally. They’re working with older people in their communities, they understand what needs to be done for older people and they know the things that affect older people from one day to the next.

For me, I understand that there are some structures in place already with the older person’s commissioner. There are groups that she has, activity groups, where the agencies and those groups meet in order to feed back to the commissioner and to get feedback from the commissioner on her work, and I see those kinds of meetings continuing. I’ll want them to continue; I’m really keen for them to continue, so that I can meet them, but also so that they have the opportunity to hold me accountable as a commissioner for the work that I’m doing.

But I also think that some of those groups, some of those more local groups, won’t be represented nationally, and it will be important for me to go out and meet those groups in order to know where they are, to go and meet them and the older people who engage with them and collaborate with them.

Although the commissioner has an incredibly important role in terms of ensuring older people’s rights and safeguarding the rights of older people, one person can’t do that alone, and we do need this collaboration with stakeholders and community groups in order to understand what’s happening from day to day and to understand what’s important and what needs to change. I think the older person’s commissioner Act states how essential it is for older people’s voices to be a part of the way in which the commissioner develops their priorities and work, and I think older people as well as those groups are essential in order to be able to do that.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Diolch. We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas now.

[Inaudible.]—various public bodies and is it sufficient to effectively oversee their work?

I'm really sorry, Carolyn, I just missed the first part of that question.

I'd just like to ask what's your understanding of the workings of various public bodies and if it's sufficient just to oversee their work. We have so many different public bodies and different layers, with local authorities, with councils, public services boards, regional partnership boards, Transport for Wales—all these people delivering services. So, just really your understanding of them and also the issues that they might be facing as well.

In terms of our public bodies, and also being mindful of the public bodies that the older people's commissioner can issue powers—. And the work and the powers that are given as part of the Act, I think, being really clear about which public bodies they apply to and which they don't, as well—. But, I think, in terms of when we think about our public bodies and those that are relevant and that older people use on a day-to-day basis, when we think about our health services and we think about primary and our secondary health services, our GPs—we know that the commissioner has recently published a report in terms of access to GP services, but also on mental health services—. So, thinking about that whole range of health services that older people may need to access, but also social care services—. In preparing for these interviews as part of the appointment, I've spoken to representatives and really understanding some of the challenges that they face in terms of the demand for their services, the complexity of need that they're being presented with by older people and their families, and that older people are presenting to services at a later point, so we're not necessarily being able to do preventative work, but actually we're at the point of crisis where people are accessing services.

Resources are a huge consideration for services and our public bodies in Wales at the moment, but also thinking about our model of services that we have and, yes, the work that is ongoing in terms of 'A Healthier Wales' to better integrate our health and social care sectors. But, thinking about what services are older people needing closer to home and more emphasis on preventative services so that we can prevent people going into hospital, and then prevent people having to be in hospital so long, because we've got adequate services that are local to individuals in their communities—. But, also thinking about our workforce and the challenges that public bodies have across Wales at the moment in terms of recruitment and retention of that workforce, but also ensuring that that workforce are skilled, knowledgeable and experienced to be able to deal with the range of needs that are being presented to them—.

But when we think about some of the wider services, as well, so, within the care sector, when we're thinking about our private care sector and how we engage with them as regulated and inspected services so that they do fall within the remit of the older people's commissioner, how can we work with them to understand the challenges that they face? But also wider services, transport, and thinking about how individuals are being able to access public transport, the cuts in public transport and then people not being able to access services or get to places, and, therefore, relying on other people to take them places, and then that impacts on individuals' independence and feelings of independence—. Thinking about our environmental services and our resources that we have available to older people to access and that are really important to older people, that they have spaces and places within their communities that they can go—.

But also, not forgetting as well, whilst we talk about public bodies, the value of our third sector and voluntary sector in Wales, especially when thinking about their work with older people and that they face similar, if not additional, challenges in terms of workforce recruitment, workforce retention, but also real issues around sustainable funding to continue their sometimes vital services in community that older people access—. Sorry, it's been a bit of a whistle-stop tour around public bodies and challenges, but I'm happy to take any additional questions if you feel I haven't covered anything.

So, how would you hold them accountable, or what strategies would you employ to ensure that the recommendations are implemented? I'm just thinking, from a high-level point of view, it's really easy to ask for obvious needs to be implemented, but, sometimes, it's understanding the complexity and restraints that public bodies are facing as well. So, earlier, you mentioned informing older people about what's happening, what's available to them. I've been asking you questions: 'Do you understand about the various public bodies and what they deliver?'; but do older people understand? And earlier, you said 'via publications by local authorities sent out to each house, to ensure that they're informed that way', but I know that many local authorities no longer send publications out to every house because that's been taken forward as a cost saving. Very often, the only publication now is the council tax bill, so everything gets tied or bunged in with that, and Royal Mail are struggling at the moment to deliver letters. So, I'm just wondering how you would work with local authorities to ensure that any policies you think of that are important to older people can actually be policies that can be delivered, understanding everybody's needs and requirements. I hope I made that clear.

Yes. I think my approach in the work that I've done to date and the approach that I would wish to continue is firstly to work with and alongside public bodies, as you said, to understand what their intentions are and how they intend to deliver their policy intentions, or practice or service improvements, and to work with them to support them to do that, to support with expertise or capacity, where that was possible, because I think that you will achieve more if you're able to work together, as a starting point. But I think, by speaking with older people, then, to really understand what, in practice, is the reality for them in terms of the implementation of those policies and that being an evidence base, then, to go back to public bodies to say, 'Well, actually, this is what you intended to do and this was your aim, but in practice, this is the experience of older people who are trying to access services, or trying to get information'—.

I think the point you raised there in terms of information becoming digitalised—everything becomes digitalised—there has to be a provision of non-digital information not just for older people, but for other groups within our communities who don't have that access to digital information. And I think if we were to look at that as an example, then whilst I would look to work with public bodies to understand how they're making information or services available, the commissioner does have powers and those powers would enable me to review how public bodies are exercising their functions, intend to exercise their functions or are failing to exercise those functions. And whilst I would want to maintain that collaborative approach—work with, support alongside, review, scrutinise and challenge where appropriate—I wouldn't be afraid to use those powers if the rights of older people weren't being upheld or were at risk of not being upheld within our communities. And I think that's really important to have that balance—that those powers are there to be used judiciously and proportionately. And I think the commissioner needs to be able to use those when the supportive and constructive challenge approach hasn't worked and public bodies are failing older people.

And just on encouraging best practice and maintaining independence, drawing on your experience, how would you encourage best practice in the treatment of older people within various sectors such as healthcare, housing and social services?

Yes. I think, when we think about best practice and good practice, I was involved in initial conversations in mid and west Wales, where we identified housing for older people as a real issue and in particular for older people who had experienced abuse and refuge wasn't deemed an appropriate place for them. They didn't want to go into refuge; they wanted a space where they felt safe and that they could call their own. And there was a really innovative piece of work between the local registered social landlord, the violence against women sector and through the Dewis Choice project at Aberystwyth University, who co-produce services with older people. We brought those together and we developed a model where, within that registered social housing provision, there was a safe provision for older people who needed to leave their home around domestic abuse. Now, that, as an example of good practice, could be shared across Wales, could be used as an example, because those housing needs will be across Wales in terms of older people. But, we have really strong academic links here in Wales, so we could look at research involving older people, look at what works, use the experiences of older people, and for the commissioner to be a platform to share that information. It's not always about the commissioner having to do that work; it's about looking at the resources and expertise that we have in Wales, and then being a facilitator to share that learning and best practice, and support implementation.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much. The role of the commissioner requires strong leadership, and independence too. How would you navigate potential conflicts of interests or pressures from external stakeholders, whilst upholding the principles of the office too?

Of course, I think the independence of the role is essential, and that is in the legislation that set up this role. I think that's something we can always refer back to time and time again to emphasise that this is an independent role. And I think that perception of independence is also important, because the role and the team are funded by the Welsh Government, and people are going to see that and think, 'Well, how can the commissioner be independent if the money is coming from the Government?' I think that is a matter of being able to show that independence and refer back to the evidence behind any challenge or behind any proposal that the commissioner puts forward. That evidence could come from academic work or research, it could come from the experiences of older people in Wales, or it could come from the work that the commissioner's team has done. And I think that's where it's important in terms of being a commissioner—I always use the evidence available to us. I'm objective in the work I do. I'm also able to show the Nolan principles in terms of the integrity of the work that I do, and I'm also very clear, as I build relationships with stakeholders, with Government, with Senedd Members, that the role is independent, and my purpose is to safeguard and promote the rights of older people in Wales, and that's what will drive every decision that I make in the role.

Thank you very much, and thank you, Chair.

Diolch. Now Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon. I wanted to ask about how sufficient and effective the laws are that affect older people in Wales. As a commissioner, you will need to review this and use strategies to influence the legislative changes that will benefit older people in Wales. Can you give me an example of a current law that you feel isn't sufficient or effective in terms of the effect it has on older people in Wales, and perhaps provide an example of what strategies you'd use to change that?

I'm going to answer this in English, because I'm sure there are a lot of technical terms I'll be using.

When I think about the laws that we have in Wales at the moment, and I think about the laws that we also have wider in terms of protecting rights for older people, we do have really strong rights-based legislation. When we think about our European convention on human rights, when we think about our equality law, which are wider than Wales, I think those laws are in place, but they're not necessarily implemented effectively. We don't necessarily look to them to uphold rights and to make our case in terms of ageism, and age discrimination in particular. When I think about the laws that we have in Wales, and in particular some of the really progressive legislation we have around an age-friendly society, around some of the policies that we have around social isolation and loneliness, but also the wider legislation around social services and the well-being of future generations, I think, whilst those are in place, one of the elements that we could be stronger and more robust in terms of scrutinising is around how the equality impact assessments as they relate to older people are implemented and considered as part of the process, and, whether that's at a national level or whether that's at local and regional levels in terms of policies and legislation that's developed, I think that is something that we could scrutinise further and to look at far closer in terms of how probing, how inquisitive, how analytical we are being in terms of impacts on older people in their day-to-day lives. I'm trying to think of something to use as an example.

Well, for example, we could think about carers' rights. We know that the majority of carers in Wales are older people. We know that they have rights ostensibly, but many reports have shown us that their rights are not being upheld.

So, is there anything that you would consider doing, for example, in that area?

I think, to return to the main messages I mentioned earlier: it's raising awareness, enhancing understanding as to what those rights are, and how we can use community groups or people who work with carers to raise that awareness. Because once we've raised that awareness and developed that understanding, people will have an opportunity to challenge that, to challenge services when their rights aren't being met, and, I think, using that approach. Because it's the same thing we have to do across the board, but to be able to raise awareness, raise awareness of rights, and then work with individuals and groups to understand what isn't working, and how we can improve that, and then to approach those public authorities and say, 'Well, this is the experience of individuals and families. How can we resolve this? How can we improve this?'

And then there needs to be a monitoring system, and we need to see what difference is actually being made, because that's something that's important to me and will be important to me in this role. It's not just implementing things and talking about raising awareness and understanding, but looking at what difference this is actually making to people's daily lives, for older people and their families too.

Thank you very much. You mentioned monitoring there, could you share your understanding and experience, perhaps, of utilising data and research to inform evidence-based advocacy and policy recommendations that benefit older people? We know, of course, that the Government has a data unit for equality. Perhaps you could discuss what sort of work you would like to see and how you would like to collaborate with that work.

Yes, certainly. We know that, up until two years ago, older people weren't covered by some of those datasets. So, when we're looking at crime and violence surveys in England and Wales, older people weren't counted as part of that. What message does that send to older people? That they're not important, that they're not seen. So, I think the changes that have happened there are something that we can learn from now that we have that data. We can start to better understand the data, to analyse what's happening, and what older people are telling us.

In terms of the Government's data unit, but also all the data gathered by services, do they gather data regarding older people and the different protected characteristics that older people have, so that we can start to understand what that intersectionality actually looks like for older people? How many different elements are older people experiencing, and how do they come together to impact their ability to access services or to have their voices heard?

I also think that we have an opportunity to better understand the data, which will allow us to forward plan. So, when we are thinking about early intervention and prevention, and thinking about what we can do at an earlier stage that will provide greater support for individuals, and more information for individuals, so that they can make decisions for themselves at an earlier stage, I think that we can improve our use of data to help our understanding of that, because that data is available from the regional partnerships, or the local services boards, or from health and care services. So, I don't think that we're utilising that data to its full potential to help us forward plan.

Thank you. And in terms of priorities, then, the priorities of the commissioners have varied, reflecting the changing needs and concerns of older people that have emerged over time. What initiatives would you prioritise or build upon in your role when you become the commissioner?

Could you give us a few examples of the areas that you feel have become evident recently? You've obviously mentioned abuse. In terms of other things, perhaps, are there things such as the Welsh language, the Welsh language in healthcare and social care, or perhaps issues with regard to using cash, or, as you mentioned, in terms of transport? There's no point in having a bus pass if there's no bus to go on, and you will know that people have been isolated by the recent cuts. So, are there areas that you feel you'd like to prioritise or build upon in terms of the work that's already gone on?

I have developed some views around priorities, but I'm also really aware, in line with the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Act 2006, that those priorities have to be developed with older people. So, whilst I'm happy to share my views now, I would certainly like to use the first three months in role to engage and consult with older people to really test whether my thoughts are what's important to them. So, there is that. And I think you're right, I think that the priorities that the current commissioner also has are really relevant, and they've been relevant throughout her term and they remain relevant. I wouldn't want to just come into post and just change everything. I'd like to possibly build and further advance the priorities that the commissioner currently has in place.

And thinking about some of the things that have become clear to me in preparing for this role, certainly one of the things that has become more and more evident is the rights of older people in terms of those with dementia, and that's something that's been spoken about really prevalently in terms of older people and their families who are concerned about the safeguarding of their rights if they were to develop dementia. How would their rights be upheld in terms of if they are experiencing dementia, and whether they were being cared for in a home or in a care home? How do we uphold those fundamental United Nations' principles for older people and their rights?

Also, in terms of end of life, whether that's—. The work that's been done around 'do not resuscitate', or whether that's the work that—. You know, the news that's been in the media around an individual having the decision to end their own life, what does that mean for older people in terms of their rights going forward? But also around capacity, mental capacity. Again, how do we uphold those rights? So, whilst they may come under a very broad priority of safeguarding and upholding those rights, there are particular areas that I think we've got an opportunity to further our understanding and provide more information and guidance for older people in terms of what their rights are in those situations, and to provide them with information.

I think one of the other areas—and I've mentioned it already, so I won't go on too much about it—is around that intersectionality. So, where older people may be from a BME community, but where they also have a disability, or they identify as LGBT, what do we really understand around the multiple needs and barriers that they experience? And I think there's an opportunity for us to really look at that, moving forward.

But some of the things that you've mentioned as well around Welsh language. In the work that I've been able to do to date, I've been able to communicate with older people in Welsh if that's what they choose to do, but, actually, some of our fundamental services around social care, around assessments that are being done with older people—in particular, those with dementia—are we able to provide that active offer to individuals in terms of having the right to have that assessment done in the language of their choice, and what does that mean? What difference can that make for an individual in terms of their engagement with services?

I think digitalisation is also a significant prioritisation, one that I know where a lot of work has been done already, but more and more information is becoming digitalised and expecting people to be able to access the internet to be able to pay for parking, in some instances, or get further information. We need to really understand what other options can be provided, so that older people are not left behind, don't feel excluded from society because of how society has changed.

But also I think a priority as well around poverty. One in five of our older people in Wales are living in poverty. Older people experience those same experiences as the rest of our population: cost-of-living crisis, fuel poverty, making those decisions around whether they're going to eat or heat. But I think there's further work to be done around what could really help, how we can increase the benefits uptake amongst older people.

Housing, I've already mentioned—I think we do have a real issue around housing. So, I have a list of priorities that I would like to share with older people, to speak with them and to get their views, to help me develop those priorities. And I would be more than happy, and I'd welcome the opportunity, to come back before the committee, some time after my appointment, to share those priorities and a programme of work.

Thank you, Sioned, and sorry for giving some answers in English and some in Welsh.

No problem. Time is running short, so—

Yes, we've only got five minutes now. So, only five minutes left, so go on, Sioned.

Yes. I have two very brief questions, and if you could give me quite a brief answer also. First of all, we're discussing a lot of the priorities there. We know, of course, that the funding for the commissioner's office has been cut, so how do you think you could manage the budget strategically? How will you prioritise to fulfil the commissioner's responsibilities and those priorities? And then one more question—. Yes, if you could give quite a brief answer to that, and I have one more question about your previous experience.

In terms of resources, the latest financial statements and reports I've been able to look at are ending March 2023, but I'm aware that there's been a cut to the budget, moving forward. I think I probably need an opportunity to be in post and really understand how resources are currently being prioritised. I know that staffing costs are the highest percentage of the budget at the moment; there's just under £100,000 of the budget that goes directly towards programmes of work.

I think there are opportunities to further look at where there'd be opportunities to share resources with the other commissioners; I know that's something that's been done already. I know that the current commissioner's taken some really significant steps in terms of reducing office space, hybrid working, to really look at managing prudently the budget that she has, but I think I probably need an opportunity to go in there, look at how it's currently prioritised. But, significantly for me, I want to maximise the resources that are available for that direct contact with older people and activities with older people—again, something that I'm happy to come back and explore at a later date.

Wonderful. Thank you for your very brief response. One more thing, just to return to your previous experience, you were—and this is how I know about you—a national adviser for VAWDASV, and as you mentioned, you were the first in that role. Looking at your curriculum vitae, that's where you've perhaps worked most closely with Welsh Government policy and tried, hopefully, to influence policy in that area. You were in that role for two years before you stepped down. Would you be able to share anything that you learnt from your experience in that role, anything that contributed, perhaps, to the decision to step down from that role, in terms of thinking now about the role that you'll hold in terms of collaborating closely with and influencing the Government again?

I think, when I look back and I reflect on that period as a national adviser, it was the first role of its kind, I was the first person appointed to it. There were no resources, apart from myself, allocated to the role. Of course there were policy teams who were working on different policies for Welsh Government, but I think it really showed how important working with and alongside services could be, because whilst it was only me, there was still progress made within that time. I think that in terms of what I learnt to take forward is just how challenging it can be to work cross-Government in terms of the agendas of each policy area and how you bring that together for a shared objective. But I think there's been significant progress made, and I think the strategy for an age-friendly society really shows the progress that has been made to bring that cross-Government, that older people really are central to how we think about policy areas.

I think that just the increased capacity, the fact that there are statutory powers attached to this role that mean that, hopefully, I can have more influence and that I can work to progress the agenda further in Wales, are things that are very different to that previous role.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Well, I think we've come to the end of our time, so thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Rhian, and we will now end the session.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Thank you.

Thank you.