Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Members, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that we resolve to exclude the public for item 4 of this meeting. For anybody who's watching, I just want you to be aware that we will be continuing in public session at 11:00 this morning, when we will be scrutinising the Minister for culture on the budget. But are Members content for us to be private for item 4? Okay, I'll just wait to hear that we're in private session.

Good morning and welcome back to this meeting for the second evidence session of our evidence sessions on the Welsh Government's draft budget. We are now going to hear from the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. Welcome to you. I'll ask the Minister to introduce himself, and also the officials, for the record.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr, Chair. Jack Sargeant, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. I'll ask the officials to introduce themselves, starting with Jason, and then we'll go to the screen.

Good morning. I'm Jason Thomas, director of tourism, marketing and creative.

I'm Nicky Guy, one of the two deputy directors for culture.

Thank you. I think we might've been having some problems. I'm not sure whether Steffan can hear us. Steffan, would you like to introduce yourself?

If we could unmute Steffan.

Good morning. Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

Good morning. I'm Steffan Roberts, deputy director for arts and sport.

Thank you very much. And I understand, Minister, that Ruth Meadows will be joining us shortly.

Yes, Cadeirydd. Apologies. The Children, Young People and Education Committee, as you know, is overrunning, so Ruth Meadows, who is the director for culture and tertiary education, will be joining us in due course. Apologies for the inconvenience.

Diolch, Weinidog. We understand. We'll go straight into questions, if that's all right. Can I check with you firstly, please—? In your evidence, you talk about how the overall revenue uplift will allow organisations to manage inflationary cost pressures, make plans for public sector pay awards, and contribute to ongoing running costs. Given that the revenue uplift only returns the sector to 2023-24 levels of funding, how realistic do you think it is to expect them to cover these additional funding demands? Have you had any discussions with any sponsored bodies about how they could do less in order to fund additional demands, please?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, for your starting question. In this budget, there is an additional £5 million-worth of revenue. I think it's worth starting the committee in the context of where we are now and where, perhaps, we have been in the past. This is a budget that is a step in the right direction. This is an increase of 3.6 per cent to arm's-length bodies and is an increase to the budget overall across the arts, culture and sport portfolio. And if we just look at the £5 million in revenue and £18.4 million in capital, our capital expenditure is a real success story there.

You point to sponsored bodies and the conversations that I have with them. I have regular conversations with sponsored bodies on this. They have their remit letters to deliver against. We of course will go on monitoring that progress with them. My expectation is that they will continue to deliver against their remit letters. I think it's fair to say in all of the challenges that they face, they have still delivered all of the things that we expect them to. And this is a better picture for them, isn't it? It's an increase in their budget, and they have more scope to play with now than perhaps we expected before the general election last year. Arm's-length bodies will be developing their operational plans for the year—that'll be the point where we'll monitor that progress and see what they come up with and how they will achieve that. But I'm not expecting drastic change, Chair.

Thank you for that. At this point, I'd like to welcome Jenny Rathbone, who's substituting in the committee this morning. You're very welcome. Alun wants to come in on that, and also Heledd. I'll go to Alun first and then Heledd.

Diolch. I was interested in your response, Minister: you said this was a step in a different direction, if you like—a step in the right direction—and that implies, of course, that it's the beginning of a journey, not the end. That implies to me that the Welsh Government recognises that it's underfunded the arts and culture for many years and is now trying to make right that underfunding. Is this a commitment from the Welsh Government to change direction of funding policy, to ensure that funding of the arts and culture in Wales reaches the European average?

Thanks for that question, Alun. As I said in response to the Chair, I think this budget sets the right direction. It's an increase in budget for all across the portfolio—

But I want to know how far this direction goes.

Well, it's a step in the right direction, isn't it, and it's the first step in the right direction. I'm not prepared to sit here today and announce budgets for additional years ahead when we don't know what the settlement will be for the Welsh Government budget overall, but it does provide a sense of where we want to take culture budgets, and the importance we place on the budget of this side of responsibilities of the Welsh Government, for all the things that this committee is aware of, what the portfolio offers, whether that be in health, and all of those other particular things.

I can't say today, Chair, that we're going to announce a significant increase again and again. What I would like to say is that this proves that we take the arts and culture sector seriously. This is an increase of the budget. It's our first budget since the general election with a partner who's willing to work with the Welsh Government and devolution. I'd like to hope that sets a sense of direction to the industry: 'We take you seriously. We will work with you in the, no doubt, still challenging times'. It does set that sense of direction where we want to take this. Both the First Minister and I are very keen to support the sector where we can, and we have done.

Thank you for that. Heledd wants to come in.

Thank you. If you consider there was a Conservative Government for 2023-24, and if you look at the budget for the next financial year, revenue funding remains 5 per cent lower than it was in 2023-24 for the Arts Council of Wales; 2 per cent lower for Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales; 6 per cent lower for Sport Wales. So, we're not even recovering to 2023-24 levels here. So, I'd be grateful if you could outline why that decision was taken not even to flatline the budget at 2023-24 levels, given that was a UK Conservative Government. I'd really like to understand why that's the case, because we can't sell this as good news when it's still lower than 2023-24.

As everyone knows in this committee, all the challenges that public services have faced, all the challenges that the Welsh Government has faced, over a sustained period of 14 years of a Conservative Government, a Conservative Government that blew up the economy in terms of that budget—

But you were able to give them more then.

Well, there's a context, isn't there, to all of that: 14 years of austerity—we said this just yesterday—a COVID pandemic to deal with, all of the pressures with inflation. We went on supporting the arts sector in the way that we did. We have provided additional money in this financial year: £5 million again additional revenue in September, 3.7 per cent capital in July. This budget in front of the Senedd now is a step in the right direction. It gets us to a better place. I would encourage all Members of the Senedd to consider supporting the sector in that way.

But this is the point that Heledd and I are trying to make to you, Minister: it is not true that the Welsh Government has protected culture and arts spending over a number of years—that simply isn't the case. You only need to look at the international comparators to demonstrate that. And that isn't about absolute spending; it's about the relative place of arts and culture in Wales. And this predates austerity as well. This is for a period of over 20 years, if you look at the numbers. If you're saying that this is turning a corner and a change of spending policy, then I would welcome it—I would welcome that change in policy and change of approach. But if you're saying that this is just this year, which doesn't, as Heledd has said, take us back to last year, really, or the year before, then that is not a change of policy and it's not turning a corner.

I'm setting out the budget in front of you for this year, which is an increase. I think I've said already that that gives you and this committee a sense of direction in terms of where we want to support the arts sector.

But 'a sense of direction' implies more than one year.

Well, I would like to hope—

Would it be your hope that this trajectory would continue?

I would like to think, Chair, that the way in which we've set out in this budget—the first opportunity that we had since the general election—increased funding should give hope to the sector and it should give optimism to the sector. I'm keen for that to continue as long as I'm the Minister responsible, and I think that demonstrates that we are doing that.

Okay, thank you. Heledd, one final question on this, and then we will have to move on.

I just want to understand why, if that's the case and there's more funding than ever before, the decision was taken not to restore to even the 2023-24 levels for these sectors.

So, the First Minister has four priorities, and those priorities are the people of Wales. So, the NHS is the absolute No. 1 priority for the Welsh Government, and the investment in this budget is quite clearly very heavily on there.

The other priorities of the First Minister are reflected within the budget. But we recognise the importance of the arts sector and the culture sector and the sport sector more generally, and that’s why I was keen to seen an increase on where we were. As I say, before the general election, I would have thought many organisations were concerned about the future budget round, but, because of the general election, because of the increase in funding that we’ve had, we have the opportunity to increase money for the arts in this budget round, and that’s what in front of the Senedd. There’s a long way to go. There are lots of challenges aren’t there. We will continue working with the sector—

We'd all agree with that.

—to focus and make sure the sector is successful. This is the first step in that, alongside all of the additional money we gave in-year this year.

Okay. Thank you for that. We'll move on. Heledd.

Diolch. I wonder if you could provide us with the latest position in terms of discussions with Welsh Government sponsored bodies about whether the Welsh Government will be able to cover the increase in terms of national insurance contribution costs for staff, and also, beyond the Welsh Government sponsored bodies, obviously this will impact other organisations that are within your portfolio. So, have you assessed what the potential impact is?

Diolch, Heledd. So, as you know, this is a non-devolved issue, and the UK Government has confirmed that it will provide the funding for public sector employees to cover the increased costs of the national insurance. I just think it’s worth setting out the initial assessment and estimates, Chair, for public sector employers in Wales, which, we think, is £253 million. So, we don’t have the detail of how much funding we will receive yet to support public sector employers in Wales. We will continue to clarify the details with HM Treasury on that.

On the point about arm’s-length bodies and whether we’re in conversations with them and so on, we’re absolutely in conversations with those arm’s-length bodies, and we will look to support them where we can. So, we’re ongoing in that discussion. As soon as we have more detail around what that looks like, then we’ll be able to have that discussion further with them and support them where we can.

Thank you. So, you’ve had clarification. So, in terms of that definition of ‘public sector’, does that include Amgueddfa Cymru, the National Library of Wales and so on? I would think, in terms of the Arts Council of Wales, obviously that would not be applicable for a number of the organisations. So, I’m just trying to understand.

So, I think the devil is still in the detail there, and we’re still working with Treasury colleagues to understand exactly the detail around that. But, as I say, as soon as we know that, I’ll continue those discussions with the likes of the Arts Council of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru to support them in the way that we can.

When you do—forgive me, Heledd—get that information, we’d be very grateful if you could share that with the committee, please.

I'm content to do that, Chair.

Thank you.

Is this of concern to you, the fact that we don’t know, really, yet—you say the devil is in the detail—what the implications will be, because, on one hand, there’s an increase, but we don’t know how much of an increase it is?

Well, we’ll work out that detail, won’t we. I think we will be—

I’m asking are you worried about it, that you don’t know.

No, I think we will work—. I’m confident that we’ll have the detail in front of us, and we’ll have that in enough time to have those conversations with colleagues. I’m not too concerned at this moment around that.

Okay. Thank you for that. We'll move on to Alun.

Do you agree with the arts council that there’s a crisis facing the culture sector?

So, I wouldn’t describe it myself as a crisis. I think there are challenges within the sector, and I think the committee is well aware of some of those challenges within the sector. I wouldn’t describe it as a crisis myself. I think, no doubt, in that context that we’ve all heard already this morning, and had the opportunity to discuss many a time now, the arts have still gone on and delivered, and we have seen that in constituencies right across Wales, Chair. And we have supported the arts through those challenging times as well. So, I wouldn't myself describe it as a crisis. There are challenges, and we will work collaboratively and in partnership with the sector to overcome those challenges, like we have done in previous years.

I'm interested by that. You dismiss the view of the arts council. So, why are the arts council saying that, do you think?

The arts council will have their own views, and I'm not going to answer for the arts council.

I'm asking for your view.

My view is that there are challenges, aren't there? And if they describe them as that—. I don't sign up to that description, but that is for them to describe in that way. We're all aware of the challenges, and I think I've been, since taking this post in September, Chair, trying to work with the arts council and all arm's-length bodies to try and address some of those challenges. So, with the in-year money from the resilience fund, just to point to a couple of examples, Blackwood Miners' Institute is now saved because of that. So, there were challenges in the system, and we've managed to secure funding to the arts council, which has found its way to Blackwood Miners' and it's now saved. So, I don't subscribe to the view that it is in a crisis. I get that there are, indeed, many challenges, and we'll overcome them.

Alun, just before you carry on, I think Heledd wants to say something

To be fair, the Arts Council of Wales are a key body for the Welsh Government—a strategic delivery body. They don't throw around these kinds of comments by chance. They listen to the sector, they engage. They're telling you, as the Minister, that there's a crisis. Why aren't you listening to them?

I don't think that I've said that they throw around comments. They have their view and they've aired that view. I don't think it is a crisis. I think there are real challenges in the system. I've listened to—

On what evidence?

I've listened to the sector myself, and we will go on to support the sector in that way. That's where I am on that point, Chair.

Okay. Just before we come back to Alun, I think that, perhaps, the point that Members are alluding to would be that because of that difference in opinion between the arts council and the Government about whether there is a crisis, once there is an acknowledgement, if there is an acknowledgement of a crisis, then funding and the severity of the need for funding would follow from that, so I think that's probably why there is—

We have funded, haven't we—an in-year fund of £3.6 million for the Arts Council of Wales, and resilience. Blackwood Miners', again, is saved because of that. So, with the recognition of the challenges that are there, we have gone on to work with the arts council and we will continue to do that, and with the wider sector. So, I think there is recognition, where we do go on to support the sector in these challenging times.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

Back to Alun.

The Blackwood Miners' was only under threat, if you listen to Caerphilly County Borough Council, because of the policies of the Welsh Government, so I think we need to recognise that as well. You've said there is no crisis, and that's fine, but we're looking here at the per-head funding of culture and recreation and sport in Wales, which is amongst the lowest in Europe. You're saying that a 3.6 per cent revenue increase for the arts council reverses that.

No. I think I've said it's a step in the right direction.

Yes. But is a 3.6 per cent increase really sufficient in the face of where we've been, of what you've heard. I haven't heard anyone else in the arts and culture field not describe this situation as a crisis, and we've seen protests on the steps of this building. We've seen the sector under more stress and strain than I remember in the time that I've been a Member here. And the response of the Welsh Government is 3.6 per cent.

So, we’ve responded more than that, haven’t we? We've responded in-year.

In revenue funding in the next budget.

In the next budget, but we have responded in-year, and I think that that is important to recognise, because that has made a real difference to the sector, and the sector is very grateful for that, certainly in the conversations that I’ve had with those organisations.

I think that, on the point about European tables—and I’m very grateful for the committee’s work on that and I want to consider that in the way that all Ministers would want to and respond to that directly, Chair, when we have the opportunity to consider it—I think that, even in the committee’s report, there was a caveat on European funding tables as to whether they included both revenue and capital, and all of those things. So, we want to consider that in the way that I can.

This is a step in the right direction. We are not going to overturn all of the wrongs of the past in one go. It’s a step in the right direction, there’s an increase for the arts, there’s an opportunity for us all to add money to the arts sector in the coming weeks, and it’s a step in the right direction.

Okay—the wrongs of the past. Okay. Do you know what I find really disappointing, more than anything else? We were in Dublin as a committee in September, wasn’t it, and we had a meeting with the arts council in Dublin, and they were talking about the way in which they were looking to expand their activities and they were looking to deliver increased levels of funding to do all sorts of different things—investing in Irish culture in terms of the arts as well as music and the rest of it. And we got the plane home and, all of a sudden, in Wales, we’re looking at redundancies in the opera, the closure of facilities and the rest of it. They’re two completely different pictures in two Celtic countries that have a long history of appreciation of the arts and culture—two very similar countries in lots of different ways, but a completely different governmental attitude towards the arts and culture. As a Welshman, taking the politics out of it, I find that really profoundly disappointing.

Well, we do take the arts seriously. The budgets of the Irish Government and the surplus in the budget of the Irish Government enables them to be able to do that.

The Irish have—. Brexit has destroyed Wales. I accept that.

So, I think that if we were in the same space as Ireland—

Forgive me interrupting you, Minister, but Scotland has faced a number of pressures as well, and they have chosen to increase arts funding.

Well, so have we.

Is that something that you would hope to seek to emulate, perhaps?

Well, we are increasing arts funding, Chair.

But by a significantly higher—

Look, it’s pointing in the right direction, isn’t it? This is a budget, for the first time, focused on the First Minister’s priorities—significant increases to support the NHS and all of the other priorities—yet we still have an opportunity to increase the budget for the arts. Now, more money across the sector—. They have still delivered in these challenging times. They will be able to deliver more with that increase.

Chair, to take Alun’s point around the Irish Government, I think that if we had the level of money that they do, then of course we would look to—

But that’s just my point, you see. When we did have higher levels of funding under the last Labour Government—I was lucky enough to be a Member here at the time—even then, the proportion of spend, of Welsh Government spend on arts and culture, was lower than elsewhere in Europe. So, this isn't something that is simply born of all those terrible Tories in London and, you know, 'There's nothing you can do about them, and now that we've got this Labour Government coming in on a great white charger, we can change things.' That isn't the case. The problem is that we've got systemic underfunding of the arts and culture in Wales for a number of years. And if your argument this morning, Minister, is that this budget isn't just a point in time but a point of inflection, where we're turning policy, then I will welcome it. I recognise that you can't undo the damage of decades in a year—I accept that; I don't disagree with that. But what I want to hear from you is, first of all, a recognition that Wales has underfunded the arts and culture for many years. You've sort of said that when you said you're 'righting the wrongs', but I'd like you to be clearer about that. Secondly, I would like to see the Welsh Government saying, 'Right, we accept that there's been this crisis in the arts'—caused by other matters as well as Welsh Government funding—'and now we're going to move forward in a direction that values and appreciates the arts and culture of Wales.' And if you were going to say that, Minister, I would welcome it.

I think I’ve already set out that we’re moving in the right direction, because we recognise the importance of the sector to Wales. We want to be able to support the sector in a way where we can offer more funding. This budget is the opportunity to start that process.

I know that Heledd wants to come in on this, but just on Alun's point, would you recognise, in Alun's framing, that the Welsh Government—it's an argument that we've made as a committee—has underfunded these sectors for a very long time?

I think there's a huge context around all of those points, isn't there?

Right, I'm going to bring Heledd in.

It's quite specific. You're saying there's no crisis. Everyone who works in the sector says there's a crisis. We as a committee have taken evidence from countless sources, we've looked at international comparisons, we see that there's chronic underfunding that has been a problem since this Senedd has existed, actually. I'm asking you, and you're refusing to acknowledge there's a crisis, so how do you right the wrongs if you're not even willing, as Minister, to acknowledge what we're seeing out there and what we're hearing? Because you mentioned one organisation being saved, but there are countless others lost—so much expertise, so many roles, lost. So, I'm looking to Government for an acknowledgement of that crisis, as I think all the sectors are, because you can't begin to fix things if you don't acknowledge that the problem exists in the first place.

Chair, I think I've already said that there are a lot of challenges in the sector, and we will work with the sector. Just a point around saying that there's one institution saved—and that is a good institution, and I think we should all welcome that—that funding from the resilience fund, I think the number is around 60 organisations that have benefited from that, right across Wales. So, we do go on to support the sector. I think I've said quite clearly now that there are real challenges within the sector—we recognise that—and that's why we gave additional money in-year. That's why, even with all the challenges now, we have an opportunity to increase money in the budget.

Thank you. I'm keen for us to make some progress. Alun, I know you had a couple of questions on the national contemporary art gallery as well. Alun's favourite topic.

In terms of where we're going now, you've got £1 million allocated to take forward actions and priorities in culture, and to support the delivery of the national contemporary art gallery. I would question whether those priorities are sensible, to be blunt with you. I've not been convinced by your predecessor's arguments over the contemporary art gallery, and I'm not convinced by the business case that's been made for it either. So, what are your priorities, in your view, for this £1 million that you've allocated to take forward these priorities?

On the priorities for culture, Chair, as you know, the summary of responses on our consultation on the Welsh Government's priorities for culture were published on 6 January, and, actually, within that consultation, there was good support for the ambitions there. I think I've been very clear about my priorities for the sector, particularly the point around access and making sure that access to the arts—

Okay, tell me how this £1 million is going to be used to deliver access.

I think, Chair, the most appropriate way of doing that is allowing time for me to consider the responses to the consultation and to set out my plans and priorities for culture in an oral statement when we launch those priorities. But there will be a focus on access, particularly in working-class communities. You mentioned the art gallery, and I know your particular views on that, but I do think going forward the work to deliver against the art gallery is just one example of supporting access in communities across Wales.

I’m interested you say that, because the plans we saw as a committee last year on this matter showed that this distributed model has no centres in the Valleys of south Wales. So, how is that increasing access to working-class communities?

I take your point on the Valleys. It’s something I’ve had discussions with my team around as well, and I think that would be something that we’d want to address in the future. I’m very conscious that we deliver against the proposals that are set out now, and then, at the appropriate time, I very much recognise we need to address the point around the Valleys, and I’m very committed to trying to make sure that does happen, at the appropriate point.

But you see, this is why—. Sorry.

I was just going to say, in terms of the detail on access and the other priorities, we’re at a stage now where we’re working really closely with all our arm’s-length bodies on how that will be delivered and moving to the next phase, which will be operationalising this against the money that we’ve allocated. So I think it would be helpful once, we’ve done more of that work, to come back to update the committee on that.

That would be helpful.

But at the moment, we have the high-level priorities, we need to work with our bodies and the organisations on the ground to put those into action.

This is what I really don’t understand about the Welsh Government’s approach on this, and the previous Minister didn’t convince me either, as it happens. We’ve got this crisis—the Minister doesn’t recognise it, but I think there’s a crisis in the arts and culture across Wales, and arts and culture think there’s a crisis. I think most people I speak to think there’s a crisis across the sector. Rather than trying to address that, we seem to be using funding to deliver a new priority when we’re failing to deliver our existing priorities. For me, surely the first priority of Government should be to fix what we’ve got at present, and the current failures, rather than try to put some money into a new project when we’re not funding existing projects sufficiently well.

It’s not just that funding there, is it? There’s a range of funding across the piece that will go in to address some of those challenges that Alun pointed to. We're working on our priorities for culture because that’s something that culture has told us they think should be the case, whilst also addressing some of the challenges within the budget that we set out. I think perhaps Nicky might want to come in.

In relation to Celf, I think it does address our existing priorities, but it's also about delivering that in a new way. Through the over £8 million investment, we’ve invested in nine galleries across Wales, galleries that probably wouldn’t have got such a level of capital investment otherwise. We’ve separately also put over £1 million into Gregynog to making sure that that could showcase art in a different way. But actually, that does mean, in communities across Wales, there’s greater access locally to people. That is about getting the national collection out of the amgueddfa, and it also has helped both the amgueddfa and the library in digitising their collections, making sure that they’re accessible for future generations. So, Celf is delivering on existing priorities, but it's also about how we can extend that to more and more people.

I disagree with that analysis: it’s not delivering access for my constituents, and it’s not delivering access for the 1 million of us who live in the south Wales Valleys. That’s simply not happening. The south Wales Valleys were excluded from the plans of the national contemporary art gallery. We know that from the candidate sites that we looked at in Welsh Government materials last year. So, to say that this is actually a great thing for the people of Wales is simply not true, because there’s a third of us excluded from it. So, I just reject that analysis, I’m afraid.

What I want to see is the Welsh Government recognising where we are at the moment, understanding where we are at the moment, and putting the funding into ensuring that our existing national institutions have the resources to go forward in the way we want to see them go forward, and the Welsh Government says that it wants to do that, rather than putting money into an institution that doesn't exist at the moment in terms of this gallery, and then taking money away from some of the poorest communities in the country. That's what I see happening.

We probably need to move on after this, but I know the Minister wanted to respond, and might want to bring Jason in, because I think Jason wanted to add something as well.

A really brief point on that. I was involved as the chair of the assessment panel that looked at the candidate sites. In terms of the wording around the exclusion of those sites, we really, heavily did our best to get sites within the south Wales Valleys, and there just wasn't that appetite there at the local government level to bid for that. So, they certainly weren't excluded. They were encouraged, but it just wasn't appropriate for them at the time, for a multitude of reasons.

But it's a matter for the Welsh Government, isn't it? I accept that officials do what they can within the parameters set for them, and it's not a criticism of officials. But it's a criticism of the Welsh Government that you can't on the one hand say that you want to increase access for working-class communities, for some of the poorest people in the country, which I fully agree with, by the way, obviously, and then, when there are 1 million people who live in some the poorest communities in the country, in the Valleys, there's nothing there, and the Welsh Government produces it. Surely the Welsh Government has a role to be a bit more proactive than that.

I'm going to ask the Minister to come back on that, and then we're going to move on.

I've already said that I recognise that as a problem, and I do want to try and address that issue in the future.

Thank you for that. We'll move on.

In terms of what I think committee members have ourselves described as the crisis facing the arts and culture sectors, one of the ways in which that has gathered headlines in recent months has been the terrible effect on the buildings of the national library and Amgueddfa Cymru. Could I ask what consideration you've given to providing all of their capital funding within their grant in aid funding instead of them having to make additional business justification cases for accessing that funding? As we understand it, when they have to keep making those new cases, it's a lengthy process, it can go back and forth between them and the Government and it can lead to delays and then a curtailed period when they can actually spend that money that is so desperately needed at their sites.

Thank you, Chair. I think we had an extensive conversation around this with committee members in one of the sessions we've had previously. I think I'm right in saying your recommendation 5 in the most recent report reflects some of this. I'm considering the recommendation that the committee has put forward around the better business case model, and, of course, we will respond to that fully in due course. Where the better business case model is used—and that is an approved model, it's the go-to model for HM Treasury and the Welsh Government around these type of things—it can work successfully. We've seen that on a number of occasions. Theatr Clwyd is a fantastic example of that—

I'm sure it can, but in these instances, it doesn't seem to be working.

There are areas, perhaps, where efficiencies could be found in that. You mentioned Amgueddfa Cymru as one of those areas. This is public money for a specific purpose, project-style investments. Therefore, it would fall under the better business case model. As I say, I am actively considering if we can streamline that process to make it a better process, but I just want to place the caveat on that as well: this is public money, and it needs to be spent in the proper way. But if there are solutions to be found to some of this and we can help manage that process in a better way, then I would never be against that—

So, you're minded to look into it.

—but just bear with me whilst I consider some of that. The better business case model does work in areas and perhaps it's finding why it's worked better in those areas than in others and if there's any learning to be done there as well.

Thank you for that. Finally from me on this, your immediate predecessor in this role, when considering the maintenance issues at Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales, she had made the case that they would need to be addressed through co-operation across different Government departments, rather than by a single department, in recognition of the severity of need and the fact that she felt that it was a national issue that required that. And it was a case that we as a committee had made as well. Do you share that view, please?

So, I think we are looking at a cross-Government commitment to these issues. You've seen the investment in-year awarded to Amgueddfa Cymru and the national museum in Cardiff. You will also see, in this draft budget, where there's been an increase in capital to the Amgueddfa Cymru estate. So, that includes an additional £9.2 million, Chair—it's not an insignificant number—and I think that shows the commitment from Government across the piece to address some of these issues, which are of national importance—we recognise that, and I think it's reflected within.

Thank you. So, do you believe that, with an instance such as this and possibly something else that might follow a similar model, almost, funding should be taken from other departments? If there were to be a serious situation that was even worse than this in one of these sites that imperilled the national collections, do you believe, in theory, that there should be funding taken from other departments if necessary, in recognition of that cross-Government need or necessity to address it?

I would prefer, Chair, to not be in that position and I think that's why we're making the investments that we are in protecting those collections. We would respond and look to respond, in the event that that did occur, in the most appropriate way. I don't think I'm going to get into a hypothetical of what that might look like now; let's hope that the investments that we do make go on to protect in the way that we hope they should.

Okay. Diolch. I'm going to bring in Jason briefly and then we'll move on to Gareth's questions. Jason.

Thanks, Chair. We may be able to get you a note on this if you'd like it, but there is a Wales infrastructure strategy, and the work that goes into that is fed into by colleagues right across Government. So, you set out priorities for your area and those all get filtered through that kind of strategy lens, and you're kind of up against mega projects, and they're massive health projects, massive education projects, but culture, sport and tourism, those areas, the voice is heard there. So, maybe we could get a note from the team that talks to that process, if that would be helpful.

That would be useful, please.

Thank you very much. We'll move on to Gareth, who's going to take us through questions on sport.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, everybody. I'd like to focus on Sport Wales in my initial question, but with a similar line of questioning to Heledd's initial question around the allocation to Sport Wales in 2025-26, which is lower than what it was in 2023-24. I noticed, Minister, in your initial answers, you were saying, obviously, about things like 14 years of austerity, the Ukraine war and things like that, but all of these factors now are all things that have followed from those times now in terms of where we're at now, and even the 2023-24 budget was. So, in terms of 2025-26, when the Government is now saying that there has been record investment into Wales through the devolution settlement from Westminster, then the likes of Sport Wales wouldn't be out of order in asking why that's not been reflected in your proposed allocation of funding to Sport Wales. So, why is it a lower proposition to Sport Wales than what it was in 2023-24, with some of those political answers you’ve given, which your Government is saying has been rectified?

So, I’m grateful to Gareth for that, and I haven’t had the opportunity to welcome Gareth to his position as shadow Minister with these responsibilities and I look forward to that. I’m particularly glad he’s recognised the impact of the policies that his Government introduced in terms of the 14 years of austerity, and that had the impacts on—. Sport Wales’s budget has increased to £21.8 million revenue. We’ve also increased their capital budget, which goes a long way in promoting access to sport and upgrading facilities, increased that by £2 million to £10 million. I’m afraid, Chair, since the question, as pointed out by the Member, was very similar to the one earlier, the answer will be very similar to the one earlier. This is a step in the right direction. We are not going to overturn all of those problems in one budget, but we are in a better place to where we were last year, and perhaps in a better place to where we thought we were going to be before the general election.

I am wondering, Minister, how you are coming to that conclusion, given that the revenue funding for the year and your proposition is lower than 2023-24, because that’s not going to be viewed as progress and a step in the right direction, surely?

[Inaudible.]—on this year, by 3.6 per cent, as it is across arm’s-length bodies, arts council and those included, this is a step in the right direction, Gareth. As I’ve said, we’re not going to address all of the challenges that we see in one budget, but we’re committed to working with the sector, working with Sport Wales, to deliver against all of the opportunities in front of us, and they do do that, don’t they? So, there’s investment in his own constituency that points to work where, even in the challenging period, they have still delivered. This budget set out in front of us offers the opportunity to increase their budget by 3.6 per cent to allow Sport Wales to have £21.8 million revenue, to have £10 million-worth of capital investment. If we look just at the additional money that I’ve been able to secure for them, they had £1 million in September; Wales Golf, just two weeks ago, maybe last week, Chair, had £1 million investment into golf in Wales as part of a legacy fund, because we’re hosting the women’s open in the summer. We are investing in sport in Wales and this, as I say, that first step to get us to a better place than where we were when his Government were in charge on the other side of the M4.

I think Steffan has his hand up.

Would you like to go, Steffan?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Just a quick note. The Minister mentioned a few examples there. I think it’s important to reflect the way Sport Wales invests through the capital investment fund as well, because that plays into the preventative and invest-to-save principle. Sustainability and decarbonisation is a key theme in Sport Wales’s activities and, through its capital investment programme, it’s invested in 97 clubs on that sustainability theme. So, that’s a very important principle to support clubs in reducing their bills and running costs. So, that’s an important financial consideration for those clubs, as they invest in solar panels and LED lights and so on. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thanks, Steffan. In terms of—. Obviously, we know the preventative health benefits of spending on sport and physical activity. I’m wondering has the Welsh Government been able to improve cross-sector contribution to sport, and what discussions has the Minster had with the Welsh Government health department and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, to improve and maximise the funding on those cross-departmental opportunities between the sport and the health sectors to maximise those health benefits and promote that in a way that's beneficial for people's health across Wales.

Thanks, Gareth, for that. Gareth raises a really important point there, in the role that sport can play and, indeed, that all of this portfolio, Chair, can play in responding to health issues, whether physical or mental health. Gareth pointed to cross-Government work and department spend. So, the investment that we will put in via Sport Wales is there to be seen, isn't it? There are examples in constituencies right across Wales—in particular, capital investments, where the upgrading of facilities that allows access to sport, in that way, obviously helps with prevention at a later date.

But that is not the only investment into upgrading of facilities and the investment that we spend in sport. So, through the local government settlement, local government invests in local sport services. Through our education budgets, we invest in community facilities programmes across Wales. And particularly with the health portfolio and the health Minister’s responsibilities, there is the ‘Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales’ programme as well, which, in this budget, sees £4 million to that programme. So, we are looking at cross-Government spend.

Chair, I'm always keen to see—. Where there's more that we can do and help with in that space, then we should be looking at that. I think I've mentioned before the work, in particular, around mental health and the role that sport can play in that—whether that be playing sport or actually just accessing some of the sport, and it’s the same for the arts and culture sector as well. I’m hoping that I will continue to drive that initiative around mental health, in particular.

Thank you for that.

Gareth, just before you carry on, I think that Heledd wants to come in with a supplementary.

Yes, if I can on that. I think that there's no doubt from this committee that we've heard the Government's aspiration in terms of sport being used as an effective preventative health tool. You've put it in your paper for us today. It's the fourth year in a row that a similar sentence has been used in the Welsh Government's draft budget evidence. So, I think that what we are keen to see is: at what point does it stop being rhetoric and actually begin being implemented?

Well, I think we're seeing that, aren't we? So, the investment in capital funding on facilities in sports offers that help to preventative—

If I may, your own evidence says:

'Sport can be a very effective preventative health tool, but greater cross-sector prioritisation is needed to create the long-term sustainable shifts in participation.'

So, we are doing that, aren't we? I've just described areas where we are doing things, and I've already said, where we can do more, I'd be very keen to see us do more. I've just mentioned, in particular, the role of sport in mental health, and that's something that I'm working on as well, to try and promote further. I take the point. I think there is more that sport can offer and more that the arts can offer in that space, and we should seek to do it.

I'm sorry, but your evidence says that greater cross-sector prioritisation is needed. Who is going to drive that? What's the strategy to achieve that?

I think that we'll all take that view, won't we? So, the Cabinet will take the view on that, Chair. There are areas where we already do that. Where we can strengthen that and look to do it, we will. The conversations I'm having with the Minister for mental health demonstrate that already.

Okay.

Thank you, Minister. We'll go back to Gareth.

Thank you again, Chair. Just finally—it's on a similar theme—I just want to push a bit more on the Minister's ambition in regard to preventative areas such as sport and the population's health. I know you mentioned mental health but, equally, there are physical benefits to sport, in terms of 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales', as you mentioned. I'm just wondering if you can provide a bit more of a detailed answer as to what discussions you have had, or will have in the future, with the likes of the Welsh Government health department, Public Health Wales, and all of those associated health departments in Wales, to make sure that there is synergy across these departments, and we can actually deliver something, and enhance it better across Wales to take preventative measures against adverse health conditions, and perhaps save some public money along the way as well.

Gareth, again, thank you for recognising the importance of sport, both mentally and physically, to the nation. The health Minister takes the lead on the ‘Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales’ programme and, indeed, the responsibility around physical activity. On my responsibilities where sport, in particular on this question, plays a role, we will continue to work with those at the bottom. We have those discussions with the health Minister and his team. I think a real area where I show commitment to this area is the investment in facilities, in particular.

So, let's take an example in his own constituency where Prestatyn, for example—the football club in Prestatyn—only started off, at one point, with a men's team. They secured investment that helped them with a grant in terms of developing, buying equipment and all of those things. Now, Gareth, in your own constituency, that team has grown, hasn't it? That is a direct example where the responsibility is mine, through Sport Wales and others, and has increased participation in that way, and no doubt will benefit many residents in Prestatyn from a range of ages, Chair, and that will be of benefit to their physical and mental well-being, and no doubt help the preventative spend.

Part of the legacy fund that we announced for hosting the women's open will be about investing in facilities on golf courses, to improve access for women to participate in the sport. I'm very excited to see the outcome of that investment because, again, that type of investment from my side of the responsibilities will go to helping the health Minister's department as well.

Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you for that.

We're just going into our final—. Just before we move on to Jenny's section, on the points that Gareth has been raising, you had made the point earlier, Minister, that health is the No. 1 priority of this Government, and because of the beneficial qualities of sport in terms of improving mental and physical health, as you've just been outlining, is a case being made—? Do you think that a stronger case should be made within Government to increase spending in sport as that preventative tool, or preventative vehicle almost? And do you think that there should be a category of spend in future budgets on preventative spending, like sport, in this instance, also the arts, as the health committee has recommended?

I think I make the case all of the time for the benefits of sport and the arts, and we do see already, as described, the areas in which the Government does invest in this. I haven't seen the health committee's recommendation, Chair, forgive me. I'll take a look at the recommendation from the health committee and consider that, and my views on that.

Thank you.

We'll move on to Jenny.

Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you about the built environment and our historic buildings. I just want to start by asking you—. The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales has told the committee,

'We are not funded adequately for the work that Welsh Government expects us to undertake on its behalf.'

It's always been a puzzle for me as to why we are funding two organisations, in both the royal commission and Cadw, to do a very similar job. So, I wondered, as it's your first time in this particular role, if you had any time to think outside the box, given that this is a relatively small budget, whether it's cost-effective to be having two organisations that are doing the same thing.

Thank you, Jenny, I think that is a very good question. I don't think I'm in a position to say that we won't have two organisations, and I don't think that perhaps is where my thinking will go. What I think perhaps needs to happen—and there is work going on to look at this—is where perhaps more joint working can happen together, with both organisations that you are referring to, so the royal commission and indeed Cadw. I'm very keen for that work to take place to see if perhaps efficiencies can be made in those systems and expertise can be used, and that work is being undertaken. Important in all of that is that a trade union representative will be included in those discussions, because I think the workforce needs to be able to shape the future for that. But if there is a better way in which we can have better outcomes by collaboratively working with the two organisations together, then I'm looking at that. I think it's a good question to pose as well.

Okay. Thank you for that useful answer, and I'm not in any way suggesting that we shouldn't go ahead with the work that is being done by the individuals at the coalface. I think it's much more about, 'Do we really need all these different organisations?'

I think it's finding the most efficient model, isn't it? And that's what we're keen to do.

Yes, exactly. Obviously, the National Botanic Garden of Wales is a completely separate organisation, doing something quite different. So, thank you for that thoughtful answer.

There's obviously a significant uplift for Cadw to go ahead with the next phase of the restoration of Caerphilly castle, for obvious reasons in terms of both community cohesion, tourism and our local culture. You've set an assumption that Cadw will achieve a 5 per cent increase in commercial income, and I just want to test whether that's a realistic goal, given that the retail sector, the non-essential spend sector, is already reporting that there is less money in people's pockets for spending on non-essentials.

Sure. The 5 per cent, I think, is a target, and why the 5 per cent is important, Chair, is because that will help support the financial sustainability of Cadw. Perhaps Jason can talk a bit more about this, but if we look at where Cadw’s come from to where they are now, I think it is a real success story and I'm hopeful that that success can continue in that vein. So, in setting those types of targets, I think all of these challenges have been considered, and I hope they will be able to look to meet the 5 per cent. I don't think it's out of the reach of Cadw. I think it's a realistic setting within there. There are lots of challenges, as the Member describes, but also we’re looking for initiatives to be able to try and meet those. But the direction of travel with Cadw has been quite remarkable over a number of years. Jason, you probably know.

Just briefly and then Ruth can probably fill in the gaps for me at the end.

Yes.

I guess, going over a number of years now, certainly since we did a big substantive review of Cadw and whether it was fit for purpose in Government, which would have been around 2017. At the time, Cadw's income levels were £5 million a year, almost consistently for over a decade. It just seemed to be stubbornly flat at £5 million income and then there was a really big commercial overhaul of the whole Cadw operation, which is a subject for another day, no doubt. But since then, the income streams into Cadw have grown significantly year on year. So, it's gone from a £5 million income level up to the target that you see there, which is north of £11 million. And that's not just turnover, there's net gain in there as well. So, yes, it's delivered success over the years. But I’ll hand over to Ruth.

You're absolutely right, we are seeing a change in behaviour in the visitor sector economy, and seeing reducing footfalls. So, the increased revenue funding in Cadw at the moment is being very much targeted at those front-line services and how we can ensure that the offer that we've got to people coming along to visitor centres is as good as we can make it. So, that increase that we've seen this year in Cadw—last year, with the cuts, we had to see some of our visitor centres reduce opening hours; we don't want that to happen again—we want to be able to make sure that that increase is going into that, generating commercial revenue and helping to sustain and protect our historic environment.

Jenny, just before you go on, I think Heledd had a supplementary.

If I may, Chair, just on that, you obviously have the detail that is not usually afforded to us. In terms of Amgueddfa Cymru, the national library, obviously they have to produce annual reports, and so on, which are scrutinised, but because of the way Cadw is structured, it's really difficult for us to understand, so I'd be really grateful if we could receive that level of detail, so we're able to understand the investment by Government, so that more like-for-like comparisons are possible for us.

Yes, I'm happy to. Obviously, we'll put it in a format that we can, but we'll share something with you.

Brilliant, thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. Jenny.

I just have one final question, really, which is: how does Cadw compare with the major competitor in this field, which is the National Trust, which, in my experience on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, has done more to decarbonise all its buildings than any other organisation, public or private, in the whole of Wales? So, clearly, they are in a slightly different market—Caerphilly castle is not a property that's lived in—but I wondered if you could just talk about that because, obviously, they are another alternative destination for people and leisure activities.

I think the work that the National Trust has done over recent years is really good, isn't it? So, I've met with the National Trust in this role and previously. I'm hoping to visit a National Trust site possibly next week, just to see a bit more about what they have managed to do and how they have managed to do it. I think that all of the works that Cadw is doing to improve facilities and protect facilities as well is good work and part of that journey. I think if there's learning to be done from the National Trust or other areas, then we would clearly like to see that.

You made the point on decarbonisation, which is crucial for the future, isn't it? I don't have the comparison on which the Member put the question, but I think there is certainly, perhaps, collaboration around what we need to do in the future, and I'm sure the National Trust has equally learned some of the lessons from Cadw as well.

If I'm right in thinking about this, Chair, and it's been quite a busy week, but I think phase 1 of Caerphilly castle is due to be completed in April.

Yes, that's right.

It'd be great if you could find some time to—

This April?

Yes.

Yes. So, if you could—. This April, yes. I'll confirm that to the Member. If you could try and find some time to go in to see what the investment looks like.

I'd be delighted.

Finally, on income generation, obviously improved connectivity by train is an opportunity for them, for visiting Caerphilly castle, as well as, obviously, the bicycle routes, which are a bit more demanding. So, how much are they focusing on the huge improvements that have been in the train for getting in tourists who are visiting Cardiff to pop up to Caerphilly as well?

So, I think there are lots of things, aren't there, with Caerphilly castle? There's the investment from Cadw. There's the investment in the train services. There's investment from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government around the town centre of Caerphilly. It's my ambition—and I think Cadw shares the ambition—to utilise all of those things there. We've seen significant investment from this Government into that area to increase footfall to the castle. So, I think they are very focused on and aware of all of the opportunities that individual investments have made available to them, and they are taking seriously, I think, looking at promoting the route. So, the train and the town centre as well.

Okay, fine. So, how are they going to do it because they're presumably not going to charge for entry into the castle? It's all about the facilities that they're able to charge for, i.e. cafe facilities, that sort of thing.

There would be a range of different income streams—innovative income streams—in Cadw sites. I think over 100 Cadw sites are free. Caerphilly isn't free.

You're charged to go in, and there are other income streams like wedding venue hire. It's going to be marketed and repositioned in that sense as well.

The new hall would be a great wedding venue for someone.

I look forward very much to seeing it. Thank you so much. We have four and a half minutes left, so I think the final questions will probably be quick-fire.

We'll go back to Heledd.

A quick-fire question: what allocation has been made for the Books Council of Wales for 2025-26?

They've had an increase of 3.6 per cent. I was very keen to make sure the books council was in line with other arm's-length bodies. I think that's a £120,000 increase.

Can we follow up with you in terms of the implications of that on the publishing sector and so on? I don't think we have time to go into that issue.

If I can move on to another matter in terms of live music in particular. We know that the 40 per cent rates relief has continued in the 2025-26 draft budget. I'm in no doubt that you've received correspondence asking for it to be restored to the 75 per cent previously, as there's a crisis within that sector as well. Can I ask what consideration you have given for providing support specifically for live music?

Thank you, Heledd, for that. We do go on supporting music. We've supported music through Creative Wales: £1.1 million over the last 12 months, including into music venues. In Swansea, the Bunkhouse is a good example of where we've helped fund. There is an increase in capital for the creative sector in Creative Wales. I'll consider, with all of the other pressures, the support for the music sector alongside other areas as well, about what we can do and where we can support. Again, the work of the Music Venue Trust, I think, is very good, and the good news story of Le Pub in recent times is a good example of where we can get things right.

Thank you. But you'll be aware as well of recent closures, such as The Moon in Cardiff and so on, and we've received quite stark warnings from the Music Venue Trust about the implications for the future. Have you made an assessment of the impact the cut in business rates relief will have on live venues? Is that something you're intending to do, to truly understand the level of support that's required?

Excuse me, Chair, because I think I'm starting to lose my voice. We are actively engaging with stakeholders in the industry to look at all of the challenges, not just business rates relief, but we engage in that way to consider what the challenges are, and monitor the issues in front of us. I'm not going to do a full impact assessment in that way, but we will monitor, with the industry aligned to us, and we will support the industry in any way that we can, like we have in the past. I just point to the Bunkhouse as the one really good example, but there was—. I can't remember the fund off the top of my head, but there was an announcement towards the end of last year, where a list of music venues were supported. I'm happy to share, Chair, in the time that we have, if my voice—

Jason might remember.

I was going to give another example. I can't remember. It was the music facilities fund or something like that.

You can write to us. That's absolutely fine.

But just one other example as well, because there are different ways in which we can help the sector. One thing we're doing through Creative Wales is working with buildings, working with providers, working with musicians, to have interactive availability of where gigs are taking place, because sometimes it's difficult to actually—. If you're into music, if you're into live music, trying to find where things are going on can be a little bit of a patchwork. So, we've worked with the sector to have something available, through Creative Wales and through the sector, to actually find out where there's live music going on. It sounds like a simple thing, but it didn't really exist before. So, hopefully that will get more people through the doors, which is really where the future lies for these places to exist in the future: they need more people going to listen to music.

Diolch. The final question from Heledd.

We've received evidence from the charity Music Venue Trust saying that

'The cut in business rate relief from 75% to 40% will cause irreversible damage and, given the lack of wider funding for grassroots music venues (GMVs), will only add to the crisis already happening in Welsh grassroots music. This means that many of the member venues we work with in Wales do not feel at all financially prepared for the 2025-26 financial year.'

I hear what you're saying about what you're doing, but this is what we're hearing from the sector again, that word 'crisis'. So, I'm just wondering how much you are working with these sectors, because if I listen to what Jason Thomas just said, 'There's no crisis. Everything's fine. We're doing lots', but this is what we're hearing from the Music Venue Trust.

The team in Creative Wales are actively in conversation with the Music Venue Trust. I've had conversations with the Music Venue Trust. They're a member of our stakeholder advisory group, so we're working with them to recognise challenges in the sector, and we will do what we can to support the sector. We've spent money in the music sector in the past 12 months, as I said, over £1.1 million. There are challenges there, but we will support the sector where we can.

Thank you very much for your evidence this morning. You will be sent a copy of the transcript for you to check that it's a fair reflection of what was said.

There were a few areas where we didn't have the time to ask in as much detail as we would have liked. I'm very aware that there's very little time in the schedule before we would need to report, so with anything that we send to you, we would be very grateful if we could get answers as swiftly as possible, within what's practicable. We'd be very grateful if you could look favourably on that in terms of the timetable.

We will take your request seriously, Chair. Obviously, it depends how many there are, but we will certainly seek to get answers back to you, given the importance of the work of the committee.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. We're very grateful to you.

Thank you very much once more for your evidence.

I will leave before I infect you all with something I have—a chest infection or something.

I hope you feel better soon.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, and thank you to the witnesses online as well.

Members, we move straight to item 4, namely papers to note. We have a number of papers to note in your packs—item 6, sorry, papers to note. Are you content to note these? Is there anything that anybody would like to say on the record? I'll go to Heledd.

Thank you. If I could just note the correspondence under item 6.4 in terms of the closure of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama junior department. I think there are some points there, given that we have taken an interest in the past as a committee, I think it would be good to follow up on.

In terms of item 6.5 as well, obviously we've taken an interest in the devolution of broadcasting, and that work. There are important questions that are referred to in the letter from Cymdeithas yr Iaith, and I'd like for us as a committee to follow up on those. So, if we can look at that, I think it would be very beneficial.

Thanks very much for that. Just to add to what Heledd said on item 6.4 on the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, I'm very aware that members of the public have written to us on this in terms of the impact that this decision has had on their children, and we are, as a committee, genuinely grateful to them for writing to us to express their concerns. We've expressed our concerns in the past about the situation. And for anyone who's watching and for anyone who's written in to us, when we do note these publicly, there is an opportunity for us to discuss these issues further in private. So, we do appreciate that. I don't see that anybody else wants to contribute on these items.

I propose, under Standing Order 17.42, that we exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, and also the meeting on 29 January. Are you content to do so?

Content, Chair.

Okay. I'll just wait to hear that we're in private session.