Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee

The green dot has come up, so that tells me we are now in public session again. Thank you to our new guests who've come in to join us today. I'll ask the two in the room to introduce themselves first, starting with Dr Barry Walters, and then I'll invite Lisa, who is joining us via Zoom, to introduce herself for the record, and then we'll go into questions and Members will ask questions individually of you. So, Dr Barry Walters, if you could for the record introduce yourself and your position, please.

Okay. My name's Barry Walters, I'm the principal of Pembrokeshire College, which is a contract holder for work-based learning apprenticeships, and I also chair the ColegauCymru strategic work-based learning and employability group.

Thank you.

Good morning, Grant Santos, chief exec of Educ8 Training Group. We're a work-based learning, independent training provider that delivers apprenticeships.

Lisa.

Good morning, Chair; good morning, committee. My name is Lisa Mytton, I'm the strategic director for NTFW, National Training Federation Wales.

Thank you very much. I'll open the questioning, if I may. In February of 2024, the Government issued a statement about what they expected in the field of apprenticeships here in Wales, and, obviously, Medr came into being in August of last year. I'd be keen to try and understand what your thoughts are on that statement. Do you have agreement with the objectives that the Welsh Government has set out, and, importantly, since August of last year, what is the relationship you have found yourself having with Medr? I'll go to Barry Walters first, if I may, and then I'll go through.

I don't think anybody can argue with the overarching objectives that are drafted within the apprenticeship policy. It's about building resilience and sustainability, it's about addressing skills shortages, and also being inclusive. I think those are what we would hope to see in such a document.

I do think there probably does have to be some further discussion about whether apprentices are going to be seen as the answer to all of our economic challenges, especially with an ever-reducing budget. The policy statement does refer to a number of other Welsh Government policies and plans, and apprenticeships play an important part in delivering them. You've got your net-zero ambitions, the net-zero skills action plan, you've got your foundational economy, you've got the digital and advanced engineering, you've got supporting priority industries, and also, you've got developing the Welsh language skills of apprentices. So, all that, with the pressure of a reducing budget, when we also have increased costs of delivery, so I think teasing underneath the policy statements is worth a discussion.

Ultimately, what we—well, I'm speaking personally. What I believe as an apprenticeship provider is that the focus should all be about developing occupational competence, and that's what apprentices are there for. Whether Medr can deliver it, I think, ultimately, will come down to resource availability and how Medr copes with the different asks of the different sectors that it is now responsible for overseeing.

Thank you. Grant.

It's really positive to see in the statement that apprenticeships continue to be the cornerstone of education and training in Wales, so I absolutely agree with that. I welcome looking at how apprenticeships are integrated further into the education system, and I think that's part of the policy in terms of how we can have an integrated system and have progression in different areas. Obviously, that's going to be a big challenge for Medr in terms of what they do, overseeing the whole tertiary system.

I think one of the things that I absolutely agree with is being more responsive to employers. How can we adapt and be more responsive? One of the things I'd say is, in my view, or our view, the system needs to be more responsive. So, we are part of the system, as providers, but there's the whole system itself. We have to find a way to be more responsive to employers. So, if employers are looking for new occupations, new challenges, we have to find a way to meet those needs quickly and responsibly, and we need to be more agile to meet those needs.

I'll give you an example. We recently, last year, in collaboration with another organisation, developed a green energy management qualification. It took us twice as long to go through the approval and funding approval process than it did to actually create the qualification itself. And that's the system needing to be more agile. So, we can be more responsive, we can be more responsive to employers, but we have to find a way to get the system more responsive and working together to support what employers are looking for.

That was very helpful, that timeline you just offered us there, Grant. Lisa.

Yes. Just to add to what Barry and Grant have said, actually. The statement has clear objectives for improving apprenticeship programmes, but if we're to bring it a little bit forward and think about what that looks like now for the future, we need to ensure that we focus on under-represented sectors and addressing skills shortages. And I think, just as Grant alluded to as well, streamlining the communication, really, between those key stakeholders, including employers, is absolutely imperative.

And then, just as a final note on engagement with Medr, well, I have to say that that's been very promising. We do have some members of the Medr team who have come along on the journey with us, from Welsh Government over to Medr, and that has been immensely helpful, I have to say. We are having regular meetings and feedback sessions with them and doing a lot of collaborative work as well.

And I think then, just as a final point, the apprenticeship statement, moving forward Government policy, the apprenticeships, we can do this together to meet Government priorities and to work together to align the apprenticeship programme with Government goals as well, Chair.

Okay, thank you. Sorry, Grant, yes.

Can I just add on the second part of your question and what Lisa mentioned about Medr? I think there's been really positive engagement with Medr so far, a very positive relationship, a very respectful relationship. What's been helpful is that some of the individuals transitioned over to Medr from Government, so that's been really helpful. Yes, really positive so far. And actually thinking outside the box, thinking differently as well, which is refreshing and important.

Just before I bring you back in, Barry, just on your point about how it took twice as long to get the process done as it did to devise the scheme, have you got a suggestion for the committee as to how that process could be shortened? Because I don’t think anyone deliberately lengthens the process, they don't—

No, absolutely.

—but from your experience, how could it be shortened?

I think there are fairly simple ways that it can be, and hopefully, working closely with Medr, we can work together to find a way of doing that. So, it's finding a way of getting that new apprenticeship framework onto the specification of apprenticeship standards for Wales, and finding a way of getting the funding, then, applied to that framework. So, it's working collaboratively with all stakeholders to really effect that. The challenge for us is that if we can't do that in an agile and responsive way, we're going to lose credibility with employers. Employers are asking for something that then takes too long to deliver, and employers then will walk away, quite honestly. So, there are definitely ways that we can do it, and I think that collaboration between all the stakeholders is really important, and no doubt, we can shorten that timescale.

So, it can be done.

Yes, absolutely.

Barry.

First of all, I'd like to pick up on what Grant has just been talking about, because we've experienced the same with tourism, travel, hospitality and catering, which was first discussed post pandemic, as we were coming out of the pandemic, so, 2021-22. The first consultation was in March 2023 and the qualification will come out and come into operation in September 2027, meaning that the first apprentices to complete that qualification will be in 2029. So, just reinforcing your point that the timescale is too long. Because, in 2029, you've probably got to start reviewing it again.

But what I wanted to come back on, if I may, were the comments made about the relationship with Medr. I would totally agree: we have a really, really good relationship. And again, Grant, I think you're right; it's because we had good relationships with the Welsh Government officials who've moved into Medr since it's become operational. I know that Medr's director of development, investment and performance regularly attends the FE finance directors' meeting. Rhian came to our principals forum in October, along with the Minister for Further and Higher Education. So, there was good discussion between the Minister, Welsh Government officials, Medr and all the principals. So, that relationship is good. But, as I said earlier, I think how the relationship will develop in the longer term depends on how Medr deals with all the asks that come from the different sectors that it now has responsibility for—regulation, quality and financing.

You touched in your earlier response on resource. As a politician sitting this side of the desk, witnesses always talk about resource. Are you confident that the apprenticeship network is sufficiently resourced to achieve the goals of the statement? Again, I appreciate budgets change on an annual basis, but, on a general direction of travel, do you believe the resource is sufficient to meet the ambition?

I think we have to be honest and recognise that funding is being squeezed. It is tight at the moment. There are employers wanting starts and it’s not always possible to deliver the starts at the point in time they want them. Each contract holder will manage this differently. We’ve managed our way through it, but it is very much a case of working closely with your employers. Other contract holders may have a different experience. It is tough.

Lisa indicated first, then I'll come to you, Grant, if I may. Lisa.

Yes, Chair, thank you. Without really meaning to labour the point around budgets, et cetera, however, it is so important and I know there are some really critical questions that the committee want to ask today around the wider aspects of apprenticeship pathways. But, evidence that we’ve produced along with ColegauCymru showed that we will and have lost some really skilled staff. So, as an apprenticeship network, we’re there, we’re absolutely at the front of the game in wanting to deliver these apprenticeships to improve the Welsh economy, et cetera, but cuts last year and even the unintended consequences of a protected budget this year are still going to—. Some tough decisions are still going to have to be made just with regard to some of the staffing resources providers have. So, it does have an impact. That said, everybody is doing what they can really to mitigate that as much as possible. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. On this section, the last point, Grant.

Yes. I’d agree with what Barry and Lisa have said. We need more resource, more funding to support the ambition that’s outlined in the policy document. We also need a longer term resource plan as well so that we can see longer term, because I think it’s important. An annual commission is a challenge. Ideally, we would have a longer term commission where we can plan more strategically, work more strategically with employers about their plans, their growth plans and what they’re trying to do. So, yes, I think we need to see that additional resource, if we can.

Thank you, Grant. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I’m conscious that there are questions later on about apprenticeship pathways, but, just because Lisa raised a point there, I just wanted to ask one question, if I can, on that. NTFW and Colegau, obviously, jointly produced the report showing the effects of the cuts on the apprenticeship sector. When that was raised with the Minister, he disputed some of the data used in that report. I’m just wondering if there was a response there from Lisa. I can see she’s already indicating.

Diolch, Luke. Diolch, Chair. Yes, so, inevitably, the piece of research that we collaborated on gave a lot of data over a period of time. I think, in fairness to the Minister, the one aspect of data that he was alluding to, and made reference to it being over 10 years old, isn’t actually a fair representation of the data. What the data does is it shows the trend over 10 years of the impact on the number of starts of apprenticeships due to cuts, et cetera, and things like that. So, yes, it’s 10 years, but it’s 10 years’ worth of data to actually show a trend. I’m happy to share that report. We have shared it previously, but I'm happy to share that report, just to see what the impact of the 14 per cent cuts were last year, and, as I said, what perhaps some of those unintended impacts are of a protected budget. But, thank you, Luke—I’m glad we were able to clarify that.

Sorry to put you on the spot there, Lisa. I just thought there was an opportunity there to understand, from your perspective, the Minister’s comments.

But if I could come back to, actually, what the main body of my questions will be, and that’s around vocational qualifications, and in particular the review. We had Sharron Lusher on the previous panel, and I asked a question around the recommendations of the group and progress made against some of those recommendations. So, I'd really like to hear from this panel now what their view is on the progress made against some of those recommendations in the report. I'm not sure who would like to kick us off. I'll come to Barry, since he's closest to me.

Okay. Thank you. Well, since the publication of the report in 2023, I know that both the Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales have responded to the report's recommendations. Yes, progress towards these recommendations could be more timely, but I think you all have to bear in mind that you have just created a significant organisation in Medr, and I would imagine that a lot of the time, effort and focus has gone into Medr. There is some progress. Qualifications Wales have undertaken sector reviews, the review of 14-16 qualifications, et cetera, but the point being made is a fair one that it could be more timely.

We're waiting, obviously, for the Welsh Government to reveal the short, sharp, action-focused policy statement on post-16 education, with a particular emphasis on vocational education and training, which is the statement that they made last April in relation to the response to the vocational review. That statement came out about 10 months ago, so we look forward to seeing that and seeing some real progress.

Grant.

I think the perception for us an organisation is that it's limited in terms of progress so far, but I think a lot of the work is going on behind the scenes and hasn't maybe reached the front end, if you like, in terms of those actions. There, obviously, were a number of areas in terms of awarding bodies, for example, in a Wales-made approach, which I think people are advocating. That's going to be a big part of the job for Qualifications Wales and Medr to look at. I'm conscious Medr has only been in place since August last year, but I know they are working behind the scenes with the Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales. So, for us on the ground, in terms of what we see, it's limited, but, hopefully, over the next year or two now, we'll start to see some traction and some of those actions come into play.

I was particularly interested in the statement within the review around Wales not having a strategy for vocational education and training, and that being a bit of a blind spot. So, it's a matter, essentially, with a strategy of waiting for the Welsh Government to indicate where it needs to go. I can see agreement from Lisa, but, Grant, did you want to come in on that?

Yes. I think we wholeheartedly agree about the strategy and the vision in reality—the north star, isn't it? Where do see vocational training over the next five to 10 years? And without that vision—. There are so many stakeholders now involved in education and training that we need a vision to get everyone aligned to what we're trying to achieve, and I think that is lacking, absolutely, and we need that alignment. We need ambition with that vision, I think it's fair to say. You look at from school all the way through to higher education, there are lots of stakeholders involved with education, and we need to make sure that's all lined up. It talks about integration of the system. The February 2024 policy last year talked about integrating the system, bringing things together. Medr are now in charge of the tertiary education system. Lots of moving parts, which I think we need that vision so that we're all heading in the right direction, and providing employers and learners, ultimately—that's what we're here to do, learners—with that quality opportunity.

Lisa, can I come to you?

Yes. Just very briefly, Luke, for clarity, I did sit on that review with Sharron, so I had some further insight on that. I think that some of the recommendations have been implemented, albeit speed is of the essence. I think we could speed things up a little bit. But, look, for me, in a nutshell, for the Government, what we need is that overarching strategy for skills. Skills go across four portfolios. It would make Ministers', Cabinet Secretaries' lives and MSs' lives a lot of easier, I'm sure, as well as our civil servants, if we were able to have that overarching skills strategy, because that would align resources, address gaps effectively, and have co-ordinated approach, which is so important. So, moving forward, having a comprehensive strategy would provide clear direction and measurable goals for both the Government and providers who are presenting today. And, as I said, if you think about it, the golden thread for that strategy then would be Government priorities. So, it all sits neatly together and everybody has a clear vision of what we're aiming to achieve to reach all of those goals. So, that's my north star, Luke.

Yes. I'm hearing very clearly that it's the Welsh Government that needs to be taking this forward, yes.

In collaboration with Medr, absolutely.

In collaboration with Medr and stakeholders within the sector. Barry.

Just to add that ColegauCymru advocates strongly for a VET strategy as well—there's no doubt about it. And I think that the phrases have already been expressed: align everybody's efforts with a common goal, at the heart of which would be vocational qualifications, education and training in order to meet industry needs, in order to meet economic goals. So, it should all tie together.

Great. I'm conscious of time, Chair. Diolch.

Okay. Thank you. Hefin.

Thank you. I should declare an interest here, because, in another life, I supervised Grant Santos's MBA dissertation, and an excellent piece of work it was. It's worth just making that point.

In the view of the panel—. One of the things I found when I was researching some of this is that vocational providers, colleges and apprenticeship providers are often frustrated by the fact that they can't get access to learners pre 16 in order to give them an idea of what options might be available to them. So, some students are pushed on to A-level courses when, in fact, if they'd known earlier that an apprenticeship pathway may be more appropriate, they might have made a different choice. Can I ask the panel, is that their experience? What causes that, and how can we overcome it?

Okay, shall I—?

Yes, please. On each one, if we start with Barry and go through.

My first response to that is that, out of 32,000 school pupils in year 11, only 2 per cent went into apprenticeships, and I think there were about 11,000 year 13 pupils, and the percentage figure isn't much higher, at 2.5 per cent, maybe 2.7 per cent—I can't quite remember, but it is very, very low. And I think you've seen a number of reports—Estyn have undertaken a review of 14-16, post 16, and they reiterate the key point that comprehensive and impartial advice and guidance needs to be provided to 14 to 16-year-olds. Estyn’s report also highlighted the role of Careers Wales advisers and the need for well-prepared advisers, so, effectively, sort of challenging misconceptions that school pupils may have, and I can give you an example here. We went out to a school in Pembrokeshire to an open evening recently. There were a number of enquiries about apprenticeships. There were three specific ones that I recall. One was about plumbing, one was about welding, and one was about motor vehicles, and they want to become apprentices in September. And the response is, well, have you got an employer? They don't understand that they need to be in employment to be an apprentice. So, there is a challenge there. How do we overcome it? We've got to, and there's been a number—. I've mentioned Estyn, but in Sharron's review, as well, there were recommendations 15 and 16, which talked about the impartial advice and guidance that must be given to young people. That's what our goal has got to be, and if we can crack that, then young people will be better informed to make a decision that is in their best interests and in everybody's best interests, because the last thing that Medr want to be doing is funding a learner through a route that’s wrong for them.

In the development of my report, one of the things I found was that schools are desperate to get in touch with employers and use employers in the Curriculum for Wales, but they just can't get access. Further education colleges have a huge bank of contacts with employers. Is there not something that could be done in the way that NPTC and Llanidloes high have done, for example, in making sure that there's a benefit to schools from giving them access to that database and ensuring employers then are building into the Curriculum for Wales at year 9 to year 11? Is there not an opportunity to build some kind of quid pro quo in there?

I know that you have raised this with me before in one of these meetings previously, and I still would like you to come down to Pembrokeshire, and we can actually show you what we're doing down there.

That was the plan until the Government reshuffle.

But if I can just highlight our situation. We've got 1,800 full-time students following FE courses. Last year, we actually got work placements for 580 of those 1,800 learners. Most of those, the majority of them were learners who were following courses such as health and social care and enhanced programmes, where it's a mandatory part of the programme that they have to have a work placement. So, we prioritise those areas and then whatever we can provide with our employment bureau, and whatever links we've got with employers, we then try to offer work placements to the remaining two thirds of our student community, and we just can't get enough. And I think part of it relates to the fact that, in Pembrokeshire, 95 per cent of businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises, of which 85 per cent of them are microbusinesses, and they just don't have the time or the resource to take on and invest in perhaps giving a work placement to young people.

So, it is a massive problem for us and I'm not pretending it isn't, and we haven't got enough work placements to satisfy our own learners' needs. So, that's where we're at at the moment.

I'm going to take you up on that offer.

Hefin, I'm keen to ask Grant and Lisa to comment on the two points you've already made, so that they don't feel it's just a one-way conversation. So, Grant and then Lisa.

Yes, no problem. I think our experience, Hefin, is that the relationship with schools is informal, it's ad hoc, it's sporadic. A lot of the time it's left up to the leadership in the school in terms of that relationship, which is a challenge. I've experienced a number of areas, where one school was looking at their apprentices actually going to work in Government Communications Headquarters, which is fantastic, and then other examples where schools see apprenticeships as being for the lower level, the disengaged, the disenfranchised, the people who are not academic and they can't actually achieve towards that. That is wrong in itself as well.

So, one of the challenges for us is that schools are measured on achievement, aren't they, the achievement of exams, qualifications, not on progression after school—you know, what happens to the learner, to the pupil when they leave school—and that's a challenge. So, I guess, what's the incentive there? I know that schools do have an incentive; they want people to achieve and be ready for the world of work. But I guess if we could find a way of getting some measure or some framework in there, in the school, because, for us, we've got access—.

You mentioned FE colleges, same as independent organisations. We've got access to lots of employers we work with on a daily basis, and they want to see individuals progressing in their businesses. It touches on the work experience element as well and, at the moment, work experience, in reality, is organised by the parents of pupils as opposed to schools. So, you've got a big proportion of youngsters that are not actually having work experience, so then how are they working out the choices in life? How are they looking at what choices and the career choices that they want in the future?

I think you go back to theme of collaboration and working together, and alignment of a pathway. For us, what would be absolutely fantastic—and we have seen it—would be learners coming out of schools, into an apprenticeship, and progressing all the way through from a level 2 to a level 5, and even on to a Master's degree qualification later. It can happen. We've got lots of examples of it happening, but they're too few and far between, and there's a real opportunity there to change that.

And—[Inaudible.]

Hold on. I want to call Lisa in now, Hefin—

Just before we do that, can I just add an addendum to that question, which Lisa can respond to as well? I've recommended a tailored and meaningful work experience for those year 11 students, for example, who want it. So, it's not a set work experience for everyone. Grant, you've just, kind of, gone down that path with your answer. Lisa, would you agree then that that is the right way forward, that it's tailored, meaningful, but only for those who are appropriate for it?

Yes, I think, look, it's twofold, Chair. I'll be as quick as I can because I know you've got a lot to get through, but thanks, Hefin, and they're discussions you and I have had over the last year following your report.

So, just very quickly on access, my colleagues have mentioned some of those barriers, but let's talk about some of the ways that we can change that. I think Estyn have a role to play. They could measure pre-16 settings' engagement with post-16 as part of their inspection framework. So, I think there's a role for Estyn to play there. I think that could be done and be helpful.

And then going back to meaningful work experience, that's critical in raising awareness of apprenticeship options. So, I think you're right, at that year 11 juncture, that is really important. But two things there for me are: let's not forget that in the new Curriculum for Wales we've got the CWREs, haven't we? We've got the career work-related experiences coming right through from primary, right through to secondary, which is fantastic. I hope we see a shift in that to having really meaningful work experience. But also as well, Hefin—you and I have had a chat about this—where is the tertiary model in the local authority? You mentioned Neath Port Talbot, Merthyr Tydfil, we have seen the partnerships with schools being much better, the engagement being much better. I can't endorse tertiary for the rest of Wales, but what I'm saying is that it's just evidence where it has worked.

And then, last but—

That's exactly right, isn't it? It's those pockets that need to be scaled up.

It breaks down those barriers there then.

And last but not least, I just had a presentation last week from the Cardiff Commitment. Gosh, I was blown away. It is a great example of real-life work experience for young people, and then that leading into apprenticeship opportunities, further education opportunities, et cetera. What I think we need to do as a Government is really think about how we can replicate that and have that equality across all 22 local authorities—use that again. We're talking about stars today, north stars, et cetera; let's use that as another star. It's great, so let's see if we can roll that out across all 22 local authorities. That would help us on this path.

I couldn't agree more with you on that. I've looked into the Cardiff Commitment too and it is very good. The answer is scaling up, isn't it?

Absolutely.

It's scaling up these things. That's okay from me, Cadeirydd.

Thank you, Hefin. Jenny.

Thank you. In the policy statement that the Government issued last February, they said that there are too few apprenticeships in areas of skills shortages that are acute, for example, information technology and digital, renewables, decarbonisation and advanced engineering. So, while all these tectonic plates are being moved, what has been done to fill those acute gaps, which are all in areas that are absolutely strategic? And how will Medr's review of all 23 apprenticeship frameworks accelerate that, or simply hold it up?

Barry, if we start with you, and we'll do our usual routine of Grant and then Lisa.

Okay. Touching on the previous question, one of the things is, you have to make these young people aware of the opportunities in digital, in advanced manufacturing. So, one of the things that we've done internally is set up what we call 'expos'. And, basically, in different routes, we—. Let's pick on engineering because that was a really successful one. We had South Hook LNG, we had Dragon LNG, we had Valero, we had RWE, we had Blue Gem, the port of Milford Haven, and they all came in, and they all brought activities for young school pupils to get involved with, hands on. And it was about raising awareness. So, we ran it on a Saturday morning. We had 200 people come in. But what we need to do is to encourage the schools to release their pupils to come in to events like that, so they can be aware of the routes where there are jobs, where there are progression opportunities locally.

Clearly, there's a role for Estyn, and, indeed, school governors on that. But how is that great local initiative going to get—? Will it survive the upheaval of all these 23 frameworks?

Well, even the terminology there is a little bit misleading, because there are 23 apprenticeship routes or sectors, and, within those sectors, there are numerous frameworks. In fact, there are over 200 frameworks, of which some are not even attached to sectors. So, it's a massive challenge, because every framework review requires significant time, effort and input, research with employers. So, it is a huge task, but it does need to be done. We've already touched on the fact that some of these reviews have taken so long to produce a new framework, so something needs to help it shift along a little bit quicker.

Grant, how does it need to be done?

I don't think it's a start and an end process; it should be a continual process. Frameworks have got to evolve as the economy and technology evolve. If you look at artificial intelligence, for example, we weren't talking about AI two or three years ago; now, that's all we talk about, isn't it? So, we have to find a way of getting the qualifications relevant and agile and quite fluid as well. So, it's important that the review takes place, but we have to find a way to continually review these frameworks, to make sure they're not just relevant today, but that they're relevant for the future as well.

You touched on digital skills as a gap. Recently, there's been a digital skills for business qualification apprenticeship framework developed, which is being really successfully rolled out at the moment, and that's plugging a gap that was there previously. So, there are some developments happening. The green energy management qualification that we developed last year, again, that's an example from the renewables side of things, in green energy management. So, there are things happening; we've just got to speed it up and find a way to speed it up and get the system working a little bit quicker, really.

Okay. So, Lisa, how do we speed up without all these different organisations collapsing under the stress of constant change, which is nevertheless required?

No, no, absolutely. It's happening as we speak. So, what we've done is we've met with the Medr team, just prior to Christmas. We've set up an overarching steering group alongside the 10 commission contract holders—so, colleagues in ColegauCymru and NTFW—and we've actually began the framework reviews and making sure that the frameworks are current industry needs, have opportunities for progression and integrate new skills, with emphasis, as you said, on some of those emerging industries as well, like digital and green technologies. So, it's started with our Medr colleagues.

Underneath that steering group, then, will be sector-specific framework groups. So, as we review it, what we've done, in the first instance, is looked at the timelines for review: what needs reviewing now, what needs review in 2025, 2026, et cetera. Some of those that were reviewed more recently, we can delay slightly, because they've already been done. But the work has already started in collaboration with Medr. And just making sure, really, that we map out clear progression routes as well, from lower to higher level apprenticeships. It is challenging, but it is essential that we do that. That does vary by sector, hence the sector-specific working groups beneath the overarching steering group. Because, for example, engineering has a well-defined pathway, whereas others require more clarity. And also what is working for Government priorities, economic needs within Wales, and looking at those frameworks. As Barry said, there's a lot within the routes of the actual frameworks beneath it: what's there, what's needed, and what do we need to develop? And going back to one of the very early points that Grant made: speed is of the essence. So, that work is under way, and I'm sure our Medr colleagues, along with ourselves and ColegauCymru, can come back and feed back progress on that to committee at some point.

Okay. So, you mention in your paper the challenge of getting employers to engage and take on apprenticeships, but that the evidence is that staff retention rates are much better when you've got employees in apprenticeship programmes, because they can see career progression going on. So, how do we improve on that, given that your colleagues in the room have just told us that, in many cases, the student isn't even aware that they've got to be in a job before they can do the apprenticeship?

Yes. So, I mean, employer engagement is variable across all of the different areas. Some sectors are highly engaged is what I would say; others, for want of a better word, perhaps lag behind a little bit. But I think it goes back to increasing awareness, and maybe some incentives for employers as well can enhance participation across all the frameworks and levels.

We are working with employers, we work with the Federation of Small Businesses, et cetera, when we look at the amount of SMEs that we have as well. So, there is good evidence of collaboration, but it can be better, and, as I said, we need to increase awareness with employers. We have some really great employers, and others, as I said, that we need to bring to the table as well. So, there's not an easy, quick, short, sharp answer for that, but there is some effective collaboration happening. But it needs to be better and across all stakeholders as well.

So, what are these incentives for employers that you envisage? For those who don't realise that they either change or die, what is it that's going to bring these people to the table?

Well, I think, from a Government perspective—again, this is twofold—there's a number of different barriers that happen across rural Wales—transport infrastructure, things like that. There needs to be, perhaps, some incentives for subsidised travel or remote learning options for both the potential apprentice and the employer. We can look at things like that as well. Incentive for employers—we've actually had, and it's still live at the moment, but the Government does have an incentive for employers to take on a disabled apprentice as well, so that they can have that additional enhancement and enrichment support.

But that's what we need to discuss, really—that would be an action for Government, Medr and stakeholders to think about what those incentives could actually look like in order to have further and better engagement with employers across the board, with SMEs. Without labouring the point, but with SMEs, that would need to look differently. I think it was Barry who mentioned SMEs previously, and that offer of support or incentive would need to be different, because it depends on the size of the business and just how much mentoring or availability they have in order to take on an apprentice.

Apprenticeship providers provide an immense amount of support themselves, which goes from doing the apprenticeship programme, alongside those extra enhancement support that they give as well. It really does go across the board—social help and things like that as well. But employer incentives is something we would need to discuss and take further, definitely.

Okay. Grant Santos, you wanted to come back in.

Yes, just touching on the different employers and different sectors, you do have some employers, particularly if you look at an employer in health and social care as an example, the apprenticeship drives forward a qualification that individuals have to achieve to be compliant within that sector. So, the importance of that apprenticeship is really important for the employer, and they really bought into it and support it. Whereas, in some sectors, it's maybe not a mandatory requirement to undertake it, and it's part of the tools in the toolbox as part of the training development.

So, one of the key things for me, going back to the point earlier that you've got to give employers confidence that we can be agile and we can develop these frameworks pretty quickly and listen to what they're asking for—. During the review of the 23 frameworks, we have to get employers as part of that, and we do. Employers are part of that process because they should be shaping what skills they want from their workforce. The Federation of Small Businesses, Confederation of British Industry, chambers—those kinds of organisations to work with are really important, because they represent a large group of employers, and there's a really good substance, then, of feedback that comes through as part of that process.

Medr mentioned that some of the social care apprenticeships haven't been successful in getting people placed. That's a really serious issue, given the way it's playing out.

Absolutely, it's a challenge.

So, what action has been taken to ensure that those health boards that have a much more localised focus on employing local skills are giving people a career pathway from a low base of qualifications?

Social care and health is a challenge. The apprenticeship qualification is there to aid progression through from level 2 to level 5. Thers’s been a big change in the qualification in the last few years, and I think there's a view, maybe, that it's become too academic and not vocational enough, as it was previously. I know there are further reviews happening with those frameworks at the moment, which should be important. So, part of that is professionalising the sector. The sector wants to attract more people in. I think it's been a challenge in the last few years with the sector, in terms of turnover and retention of staff, and retaining people, and that then has had a knock-on effect on people, in terms of progression on apprenticeships and success rates on apprenticeships as well.

Okay. My last question was really about this clear progression route from lower level to high-level apprenticeships, but social care would be a good example, would it not, of how we need to ensure that we have a skill mix of individuals working in social care?

It's difficult to provide a general answer to the question because every sector is different.

Okay, so stick with social care.

And it will depend on the individual's role within that sector and their ability, then, to be able to undertake what's required for the qualification. So, it's not down to the person’s ability, but they have to be in the role, and the relevant role, in order to undertake that qualification. So, if they complete a level 2 and want to progress to a level 3, they’d have to be in that position undertaking those responsibilities in order to progress to that level. So, it’s not as simple as kind of progressing from that 2, to 3, to 4; those responsibilities have to change in order for them then to progress through the levels. And I think that’s a barrier, not just in care, but in lots of areas.

Okay, so that’s down to the employer having a really clear progression pathway for all their employees.

Yes, that’s partly down to them, yes, and being able to provide the opportunity, I guess, really, for people to progress.

Okay.

Okay, Jenny? Thank you, Jenny. Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, both, and Lisa online as well. Needs of the employers and the economy is where I’m going to start my line of questioning, and I asked the same question of the previous panel around Estyn’s reporting that there’s no published national analysis of trends in the take-up of vocational courses against the needs of the labour market and the economy. I’m just wondering how much of an issue this lack of data is, in terms of aligning the apprenticeship provision within Wales with the needs of our economy. And I’ll start with you, Lisa.

Thanks, Sam. Well, look, data is so important, isn’t it? The lack of national analysis of vocational course trends—that is concerning. We need that in order to be able to see where we need to go, where there are peaks, where there are troughs et cetera. The analysis is crucial for aligning educational offerings, and also, then, aligning that with labour market demands as well.

So, establishing a national database and regular reporting can actually address that. So, we need that tangible evidence, don’t we, and the only way we can have that tangible evidence, if you like, in order to be smart and to analyse et cetera, is by having the data. And it isn’t available. So, for us as providers, for stakeholders and partners like Estyn, Medr et cetera, if we had it in front of us, it would make life a lot easier, because, then, we can plan pathways, we can plan visions et cetera, by having the data to use. It’s as simple as that.

Fab, thank you. Grant.

Yes, we need the data, absolutely. Without it, we can’t challenge ourselves, can we, and set ourselves baseline objectives? And it goes back to the conversation earlier about a vision and a strategy and direction. So, if we haven’t actually got the data, where are we going, what is the direction of travel? And we’ve got to set ourselves ambitious targets in order to develop and create those progression pathways.

And I think, particularly with Medr now overseeing the whole tertiary education system, data is going to be crucial, because we want people to be able to navigate their way through all the different systems, depending on where they are in their own circumstance in life. So, the data has to follow that, and we need to understand what they’ve achieved and how they’ve progressed. So, yes, they’ve highlighted—. I know from conversations we’ve also had with Estyn that employer engagement is a theme they’re looking at at the moment, and how to improve that, and, obviously, this comes into that as well.

Thank you. Barry.

I totally agree with what Lisa and Grant have said—more robust labour market information to link vocational qualifications and courses to industry demand. I can only agree.

Where’s that failure come from, then, the lack of the ability to collect the data? And whose—we’ve talked about Medr and Estyn and other organisations involved—responsibility should it be to collate this data?

But all the stakeholders have been in different places, haven’t they, in reality? If you look at schools, you look at FE organisations, HE, independent organisations, there are lots of different people that oversaw those organisations. Now, with Medr coming together, looking after tertiary, then that should follow through.

So, Medr should be the body that’s collating this data.

I think, if we can get a central system and database, then—. There are learner record systems there, so there is an element of an LRS in place, where we can track learners’ progress. But, obviously, if you had older learners, for example, they wouldn’t be on that system. The LRS is there, but it’s probably not as comprehensive as it needs to be. So, it’s a starting point, and now that everything comes under one umbrella, and we have a clear vision, then I think we can do that.

Okay.

I think it would need to encompass all post-16 education and training, so that we get a holistic view, not just apprenticeships, not just FE.

Yes, absolutely.

Lisa, anything to add on that around Medr’s role, given its new set-up, on collation of data?

No, I guess if I’m sat here with a Medr hat on, I may say, ‘Well, Sam, we need a little bit more money, then, to be able to do that.' I don’t know. But, no, I think they could be the driver for it. I think this also goes back to—and I’m sat with a schools hat on as well—Welsh Government deciding not to have cohorts of data for schools as well, and that has caused some issues in being able to look at trends and patterns. So, I think it’s twofold. We need to look at it from a Welsh Government pre-16 perspective, because we need to see what that data is so that we can track those learners coming into the post-16 arena, and then from post-16 in order to look at those trends, educational offerings, labour market demands, then we need to have that data there as well. I think that Medr could certainly be the driver for that now and the catalyst for that, because tertiary comes under one roof, if you like. So, I think it would be far easier to manage in that perspective. But, yes, we need it—

Okay. Thank you, Lisa.

Sam, could I just bring Hefin in? I think he indicated that he had a supplementary on this point.

Yes. In the process of compiling my report, Yana Williams, the principal and CEO of Coleg Cambria, made this point about data, and I went back to Careers Wales about it. They pushed back quite strongly and said that they keep a record of annual pupil destinations through a survey of school leavers, undertaken on behalf of the Welsh Government, which provides a useful snapshot of pupil destinations. And the 2022 survey reported the destinations of 55,715 young people, and the overall no-response rate was only 1.6 per cent. So, is that not available to you? Is that not any good for this purpose?

I'll just jump in quickly. Hefin, yes, basically that data is available, but I don't know how accurate that data is and it's not readily available to all stakeholders, if you like. So, I'm obviously coming from the chair of scrutiny of Merthyr Tydfil council with my hat on there and knowing where the data lands and where it ends, if you like. So, for me now, sitting with my NTFW hat on, I'm just saying that we don't necessarily get all of that data, and Medr could be the catalyst in order for us to get that so that we can look at those trends.

Okay. Sam.

Thank you very much. Staying with you, Lisa, I'm just wondering—. You've stated that the Welsh Government has responded well to demands from employers on apprenticeship pathways but note that the speed of the response is a challenge and can hinder filling the skills gap in fast-paced or emerging sectors. I'm just wondering what changes you would outline to improve that.

I think that Grant alluded to this earlier. Inevitably, we need to have a quick adaptation that would help to fill skills gaps more effectively in streamlining processes and increasing resources would help. So, when we're talking about employers coming to us, and as providers we are working together to build these new frameworks et cetera, it's the delay in getting those agreed, whether that's from Welsh Government or from an actual awarding organisation et cetera. It depends, really, where the breakdown is, but sometimes it's delayed. I'll give you one example, and I think that Barry alluded to it earlier as well with hospitality: essential skills. We looked at reviewing that four or five years ago. We've been waiting, waiting, waiting, because it's one of the barriers within apprenticeships, when we talk about apprenticeship levels and learner capability et cetera, and we are having a new review of essential skills in apprenticeships, but it's not until 2028. So, you have to ask yourself why is it taking so long. So, I think, again, we need to do a bit of a delve into that, a deeper dive, as to why these decisions actually take so long, because it does hinder progress. And then I think that it was Grant who said that employers will become a little bit disillusioned, then, because something is taking so long. So, that's what we need to do, really.

Again, talking to Medr colleagues, I have to give them a shout-out, talking to the apprenticeship team in Welsh Government, I think we're getting better at doing that, but it's in its infancy, it's in its early days as these partnerships come together.

Okay. Thank you. Anything to add, Barry?

Just briefly that I agree with Lisa, you need to be talking to employers. Do essential skills need to be a central part of the framework? And then the other issue, I think, is that we need to be very mindful that some frameworks don't contain all of the options that a learner would need to operate in his or her role in the workplace. If I can give you an example, a colleague in Neath was talking to me the other day. Her son is a plumbing apprentice, but the ground-source heat pumps course wasn't a part of the apprenticeship. Now, before, the personal learning account would have paid for it, and it could have been an additionality; now, it's not a part of the apprenticeship anymore. You can't use PLA, because it's been pushed into part-time FE funding, so there's an unintended consequence there that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at these frameworks, that they've got options in them that suit the learner in the role that they're undertaking in the workplace.

Before I come to you, Grant, Barry, just to stay on that point around the funding element of it, is the funding sometimes too prescriptive for the learner? I'm looking back at another inquiry we've done on something completely separate. Their ask was that funding was made a little bit more open-ended so that it could be used more imaginatively to fill the needs that were required. Would that be the same sort of case within this sphere?

That's not the point that I'm making here. What I'm saying is that frameworks need to have perhaps more optional modules, not just mandatory, because some of those mandatory modules don't actually relate directly to somebody's role in the workplace, so they're struggling to complete the framework, and are needing to do additional options to actually get the skills needed to undertake their day-to-day job.

That's really helpful. Grant.

I think the rigidity of the framework is part of the barrier and part of the challenge. And, again, you have learners coming on board with lots of different needs, individual needs, different entry levels—they can't all complete the same framework as someone else. So, it needs to be more tailored—streamlined, I think, it's fair to say. And that would help then in terms of the constant review so that you've got something that's more fluid, that's more adaptable, more agile for what employers want as well.

Brilliant. The second set of questions that I've got here—and a lot of this has been touched on in answers to other colleagues throughout the morning—is on those potential barriers for apprentices. We've touched on the employer capacity—Barry, you mentioned that earlier around employers not having that capacity and junior apprenticeships not being available in north Wales, and degree apprenticeships limited. What are we doing well in bringing apprentices on board and where are we falling short in those barriers that could be overcome? Grant, do you want to kick off?

What are we doing well? We are being responsive to employers—we're engaging well with employers; we are trying to develop new frameworks that employers want to see, so, that is happening. A challenge we have, which we talked about earlier, is the longevity of understanding the funding and what it looks like over the next couple of years, so that landscape is a challenge with that.

In terms of the barriers for learners and apprentices, the entry level requirements, sometimes, for a framework are a barrier: they may not be undertaking certain responsibilities within their role that they need to. That can be a barrier for individuals. And making sure that they've got that effective advice and guidance in schools. One of the things we see a lot of is that people still see apprenticeships as, almost, the wet trades in reality. And there are a lot more opportunities there, if you look at digital marketing, for example, social media—there are some fantastic apprenticeships out there and people still see them as the old guilds and the old wet trades. So, there's a big—

Sorry to cut across, but when you say that some people see them as the old wet trades, where's that breakdown in that knowledge of what apprenticeships are? Is that the careers advice within schools, the teachers, parents?

I think parents are the biggest influencers and I think that's the biggest challenge. If a parent maybe has gone through an academic approach, that's what they may advocate for their sons or daughters. So, there's an awareness, and there have been lots of campaigns, lots of marketing, to try and increase that. We've got the apprenticeship week in a couple of weeks, so that's all there to break down those barriers, but people still see them as the traditional routes, and we need to find a way of breaking that down.

Just before you come in, Barry, I know that Jenny wanted to talk about this, and it might inform an answer.

It was on something that was mentioned in passing by one of you around the transport requirement to get to the training. Dr Walters, you obviously run a college in a rural area. What consideration has been given to supplementing whatever public transport exists with electric bikes for people living in remoter places?

We certainly haven't considered that, but I think you're right to raise it as an issue. I know in the briefing document, you said that you didn't want to go into transport, because you're aware—

No, we don't, but I just think—

But I think you're right to highlight it. At the last meeting when I attended the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, we talked about a learner who, in terms of getting to his employment, had to get two buses and he had to work two hours of that day just to cover his costs of getting to and from work. I haven't picked up on things like electric bikes—

They might be misused by parts of other sectors.

When you're in a more urban area, I think, yes, definitely—

No, no, electric bikes will get you up any hill.

They will, but how long does it take to get to work? I've got a learner who lives in Clarbeston Road and works in Beggars Reach, and the mother takes the learner down to the job and picks her up at the end of the shift and takes her home. So, it is an issue. And I also know that there are companies in Pembrokeshire who won't employ an apprentice unless they've got a driving licence. So, there are lots of challenges out there.

On barriers, if you're following an academic route, it's pretty clear, isn't it? You go to school, you do GCSEs and then you do your A-levels, and you might go on to do an undergraduate course, or you might go into employment. One of the barriers I think is parental understanding of the complicated pathways. Just to give you some examples, we've got a learner at Pembrokeshire College who started on Jobs Growth Wales, moved on to level 1 FE, level 2 FE, now is a work-based learning electrician. Another learner completed Jobs Growth Wales ICT level 1, level 2, level 3. They're now doing the NVQ part of the apprenticeship and are in employment. There is a great video on YouTube of Simon Pirotte talking to a learner from Swansea College, Isaac Fabb, who struggled with mainstream education, went on a bridging programme, level 2 FE, multiskilled, and is now on a level 3 carpentry apprenticeship. So, the routes are complicated and we have to work out some way of making it clear—not necessarily to the individual, but to the parents, as somebody mentioned earlier.

Just on that point, then—

Very briefly. The clock is ticking, and I want to get Lisa in to maybe comment.

From a Pembrokeshire College perspective, Barry, Campus 6, where sixth-form pupils are now being taught academically through the college, does that open up an opportunity to speak to the students about those opportunities that are in apprenticeships, more so than the college-school relationship that existed previously?

Yes, absolutely. We don't mind what route a learner follows, whether they want to follow a vocational course, an academic course, if they want to go on an apprenticeship; we will try and match them to the programme that best meets their needs. I can't speak for other institutions, but that's our goal: get them on the right course.

Thank you, Sam. Lisa, given that you've listened to the points that Sam and Jenny have made, is there anything you want to add? By all means, if you don't need to add anything, please say so.

Chair, very quickly on Jenny's point: I do love the thought about electric bikes, I have to say, so that is something to consider; subsidised travel as well, especially for our more rural learners, would be important. My colleagues have made some other really good points. And just very quickly on Sam's point regarding pathway availability: we worked really well with the Welsh Government apprenticeship team last year to reduce some of the eligibility restrictions—when you're signing up a learner or looking for a learner to progress onto a higher apprenticeship, but there's still some work to be done there. Where we've got somebody moving from a level 2 to level 3 because their level of responsibility has changed with an employer, sometimes they're hindered and can't progress because of the eligibility criteria—i.e. they have to be new to the job role, or age et cetera. I think we can still do some work with the team on that, moving forward.

Thank you, Lisa. Luke, did you have anything more you wanted to add, or have we covered the territory? Lovely, thank you.

Could I just have one for written submission?

This is why I've got no hair, Sam—[Laughter.]

Just a written submission around not the barriers to apprentices joining, but those that are dropping off within the system. Some evidence around that would be really helpful, because I think understanding why students are dropping out of the system is equally as important. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for your evidence this morning; it's very much appreciated. A transcript will be given to you for you to have a look at to make sure you're happy with that transcript. If there's any additional evidence you'd like to submit to the committee when you walk out of here and you think, 'I'd like to have put that on the record', please do supply that to the committee, because obviously, this is an ongoing inquiry. Thank you once again for submitting your evidence and being here this morning to inform the committee in its deliberations. Thank you. We'll now go into private session while we transfer over to the next group of witnesses.

That little green dot on the screen indicates that we're now in public session. This is the final evidence-gathering session of this committee's morning meeting, and I thank the witnesses for coming before us today. I'll invite each of the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record and the role or the company or group that they are representing here today, and then we'll go into questions from the Members. The session is scheduled to last roughly an hour, so I'd ask Members and witnesses to be succinct in their answers and, obviously, provide as much information as helps our inquiry to better apprenticeships and apprenticeship provisions here in Wales. We'll start with Amie, then move to Nerys and then to Jamie. So, Amie first, to introduce yourself and the role that you fulfil.

Bore da. Good morning. My name is Amie Field, I am head of services for young people at Careers Wales.

Bore da. Good morning. I'm Nerys Bourne, I'm director of customer strategy, again working with Careers Wales.

Morning, everyone. I'm Jamie Cater, and I'm senior policy manager for employment at Make UK, so representing engineering and manufacturing employers in Wales and the rest of the UK.

Thank you all very much. I'll begin the questioning, if I may. In February of last year, the Welsh Government gave a statement on apprenticeships, the priorities and what they wanted to see delivered in the field of apprenticeships. Medr obviously came into being in August of last year, and are charged with working with providers to facilitate the statement's ambitions and deliver apprenticeships across Wales. Could you indicate what your thoughts are on that statement that the Welsh Government put out last year, and, in particular, what working relationship your organisations have with Medr and how you've found them since they've started their work in August of last year? I'll start with Amie, then we'll move to Nerys, and then we'll come to you, Jamie.

Sorry, I couldn't unmute myself then. I think Nerys could probably cover this one off from a Careers Wales perspective as a whole.

We welcome the policy statement from the Welsh Government and we couldn't not agree with the objectives and actions that are outlined in the policy. I think if we were able to achieve the objectives and the actions in the policy, it would go a long way in terms of addressing some of the real challenges that we have around the economy in terms of skill shortages and skills mismatch in the country. But I think apprenticeships will only play one part in addressing those economic challenges.

The statement discussed the importance of building resilience and sustainability, and using labour market intelligence to create an understanding of where these shortages are and where we need to focus the skills agenda. Our role in Careers Wales is to make sure that customers are aware of opportunities and the options available to them—so, young people in schools, those who are leaving post-16 learning and, of course, adult customers, as well, making sure that they're aware of what skills employers are looking for and where the opportunities will be in the future.

In terms of working with Medr, we have established a good working relationship with Medr, and we meet with them regularly. There are clear synergies between our work and what Medr are trying to achieve in terms of easing the transition from pre 16 to post 16, encouraging lifelong learning and ambitious learners. So, we've had quite a few meetings with Medr and discussed that transition and providing careers information, advice and guidance in pre-16 settings, but also looking at how we can extend that to post-16 settings.

Thank you for that, Nerys. I just read your paper and, in the paper, you talk of your innovative business engagement activities. Could you tell us what's innovative about them, rather than just standard?

They're innovative in that we try different ways to motivate young people. The purpose of our employer engagement activities is to really inspire and motivate young people and make the links between what they learn in school in the curriculum and what the world of work looks like. So, it's trying different variations. It could be employers coming in to talk about their pathway into that career, it could be visiting sites and learning on site, it could be virtual work experience or virtual tours, as well. So, we try different things to appeal to different styles of learning, I guess.

But, that's quite standard, isn't it? Is there something specific that you could say is innovative, and that you stand out in your way of working that we could say is best practice and doesn't happen elsewhere, with careers advice?

In terms of the business engagement?

Yes. Well, I'm just interested in that statement about innovative business engagement, yes.

I think it's innovative in that we try different things and different platforms, and we have the access to school pupils and employers and bringing them together with the national careers body for Wales. And we have a database of employers who are willing and able to work with young people in schools. I don't think anybody else has access to that in Wales, and we should be proud that we have that availability.

Okay. Thank you. Just on the regional skills partnerships, how important a role do they play, obviously, in dealing with your work, engaging with your work and, obviously, helping to deliver as broad a spectrum as possible of apprenticeship opportunities across Wales?

We work closely with the regional skills partnerships. We have a senior manager who sits on each of the four boards. I think the critical thing with the role of the RSP is that partnership working. We work collaboratively with them on various projects and share labour market intelligence with them, as well. Their managers have come in and spoken to our delivery teams to make sure that our teams are up to date around where the skills shortages are and the labour market intelligence that the RSP holds, as well a looking at the LMI that we produce in-house in Careers Wales, as well. But I think their role is key in bringing employers and understanding the regional differences across Wales in terms of where those skills shortages are.

Okay. Thank you. Jamie, would you like to add anything to the lines of questioning that I've put to Nerys?

Thank you, Chair. Just to come back to the policy statement from last year, it's something that, as Careers Wales, we fully support. I think the objectives it outlines are the right ones. I think particularly important for us is the second objective, around upskilling, retraining and progression. We know that employers in our sector are increasingly looking to invest not just in young people and young apprentices coming into the labour market, as crucially important as they are, but investing in people who are already in the workforce to meet evolving skills demands, how existing jobs in the labour market might change. So, I think that part of the strategy and the approach from the Welsh Government is really important and it’s really welcome to see that outlined in the statement and reflecting that change in demand for skills.

In terms of the relationship with Medr and the way in which it’s functioned so far, obviously, conscious that primarily the remit of the organisation is to work largely with the education sector, but, as employers, we think it’s important that it is hearing what businesses need for their workforce and making sure that education provision is aligned with employer demand. So, we, obviously, do engage with Medr, and have been satisfied with that so far. I think one of the things we would like to continue to work on, as you mentioned the regional skills partnerships, is just making sure that there’s proper alignment and co-ordination at a national level and a regional level between those bodies. It’s right that bodies like the regional skills partnerships are reflecting differences and specific demands associated with local labour markets, but, equally, we have lots of members who operate across multiple sites across Wales, and they want a level of consistency as well in terms of skills policy and the programmes that are available, just so that it’s easy to understand and navigate from an employer perspective. So, that’s one area where, maybe, we’d like to see a little bit more and we would like to work with Medr a little bit more to ensure that the right balance is struck, effectively, between national and regional policy making.

Thank you. Hefin.

One of the things that we've discussed at length today has been the ability for colleges to access schools to discuss with pupils their possible destinations into apprenticeships, because we know that there's a relatively low take-up of apprenticeships among many students, particularly more academically able students as well. In England, Jamie, they've got this Baker clause, which was added to the Technical and Further Education Act 2017, and that stipulates in law that further education has a right to go into schools to meet those students. We don't have that in Wales. Are you aware of it and of how it works, and whether it's effective?

I am aware of it. Is it effective? To an extent. I think it has improved the extent to which both the further education sector and employers are able to engage with schools. I don’t think it works perfectly. Speaking from an employer representative perspective, I think there are still a lot of frustrations from employers about the extent to which schools are receptive to hearing from them, whether that’s primary or secondary education. I think it’s a welcome part of the approach in England and it has improved that engagement. But, in lots of ways, I think the frustrations are broadly similar in England to those in Wales, which is there just still isn’t enough of that engagement. So, the legislation helps, but it doesn’t really go far enough in terms of changing that kind of culture and some of the other barriers to that engagement.

So, the two questions that come from that then would be: should we have a similar clause through legislation in Wales, and, if not, or even if so, in what other ways can we overcome this problem?

I suppose, in light of what I’ve just said, I think a similar legislative approach wouldn’t harm anything, but it’s also not the solution in itself. So, if the Welsh Government were to legislate in a similar way, I would caution against thinking that that's going to be the silver bullet to address those challenges in term of FE and employer engagement with schools. I think there are other things that we might consider to be helpful perhaps—the role of Estyn and thinking about school inspections and schools being assessed, for example, or being part of schools’ assessment of their performance is the extent to which they are actively promoting things like apprenticeship opportunities. So, there are approaches like that which might work in terms of just giving schools a bit of an incentive to think about how they’re working with colleges and employers to promote those sorts of routes.

Okay, that's really helpful. I don't know if Careers Wales have any views on that particular question.

Yes—[Interruption.] I'm sorry. Nerys.

Just to add to what Jamie was saying, I was thinking around the 14-16 learning guide that's been published by the Welsh Government as part of the curriculum, and I think there is an opportunity there—the learner entitlement—and one of the elements there is to make sure that young people are aware of all their post-16 options and that planning towards that. If that’s embedded in CWRE within the curriculum, I think that could influence giving young people more access and giving colleges and other providers access to young people in schools.

Okay. That's helpful. Amie, did you want to come in on that?

Yes. I was only going to say that what we see is a really varied picture around this agenda. Some schools and colleges work fantastically well in getting the colleges in, talking about their options, the young people, actually, themselves being able to go out during school time to see the college facilities, see what’s available. And then we see some selective good practice where, I would say, certain groups of young people are able to have exposure to the availability of post-16 options outside of sixth form. Then, on the other end, we see some schools arranging their sixth form open evening on the same day as the college open evening. There’s really varying practice across Wales, which is a real shame. I think it was Lisa who mentioned in the last session that where there is a more tertiary set up, it’s far better there. That’s probably what we see as well, that there’s much better exposure in the more tertiary areas of Wales where they don’t have sixth forms.

Okay. Although I note Llanidloes high and NPTC do it, and Llanidloes high has a sixth form. They seem to work quite collaboratively well. That's the case, isn't it?

Yes. There are some really good practices like that, where schools are very open to letting colleges in, letting them speak to the young people, offering for them to go out for the day, go and see the construction department for the day, but it’s just really varying. There’s no real consistent approach to it across Wales.

Okay. That's helpful. And what about the—

Hefin, just a minute, if I may, there is some background noise coming in from somewhere. I'm not sure if someone's got a dog or something in the room, but it sounds like a bit of snoring going on.

There's nobody with me.

It might be mine. I will put him out.

It is coming over loud and clear on the PA system.

I think it's Amie's. I've only got rabbits here and they don't make noise.

Sorry.

No problem at all.

We're very used to Amie's dog in Careers Wales. [Laughter.]

Cheers, Hefin.

Okay. Thank you. To what extent then would—? Can we look at careers advice? How do you ensure that the quality of careers advice across schools is consistent and effective, and is there a difference between the advice provided by school careers advisers and Careers Wales advisers? How do you get consistency there?

I’m not aware of any schools that employ their own careers advisers outside of the offer that we provide to schools. Just to make everybody aware of what it is that we do, we have a careers adviser based in every single school in Wales—that’s mainstream, PRUs, EOTAS, EHE and special schools. We also have careers advisers attached to FE colleges. We have careers advisers that work in the labour market, supporting people who are unemployed. And we have careers advisers that work in communities, supporting those people. We have a partnership agreement with every single school, so we negotiate with the school what it is that they want, whilst also discussing our needs and what we need to provide as part of our remit. We have a continuous improvement framework in place all the time, so we regularly—. Our staff do self-assessments, we our observe our own staff, we moderate those on a local, regional and national level to look for consistency across the whole of Wales in the quality of the service that we provide to our customers.

Okay. Can I just come back with one last question?

Please do. Yes, go on.

So, in the last session, our witnesses from FE and private apprenticeship providers told us that there's a lack of data on pupil destinations, and that they need more data in order to plan for the kinds of courses that might be provided, although Careers Wales told me, when I did my transitions to employment report, that you keep a record of annual pupil destinations through surveys, and you mentioned a 2022 destination survey. Is that information not widely available, and is it not sufficient for FE to make plans with regard to apprenticeship courses?

That destination is widely available. It's published on our website on an annual basis. Probably the 2024 data should be available by the middle of March, early April. So, it is published every year. It takes some time. So, there are snapshots taken on 31 October of what all young people are doing from years 11, 12 and 13. That data, we share it with the local authorities, and then, once they come back to us with any gaps in that data, we then have it ratified by Welsh Government. That's why it takes a bit longer for it to be published, in mid March, early April.

What I would say is that it's only a portion of the post-16 learners. We track years 11, 12 and 13, but 45 per cent-ish, 50 per cent, go back to year 12 and 13 on annual basis. We don't track FE learners in the same way. We don't do a snapshot on 31 October. And what is not included in that published data is what courses those learners are undertaking. So, from what I can gather, what the FE colleges would like is what actual courses people are doing, so that they can future plan. We do hold quite a lot of that data, and we have worked in collaboration with the north RSP and Welsh Government to develop a prototype of what a data intelligence hub might look like. So, we've used some of the data around what vocational courses young people are studying versus what the growth and priority sectors are for the north Wales region. Just because it was a prototype, we used it in that way, but we modelled the data in a way that it could be lifted and shifted onto any of the regions or national data around requirements. We brought in things like live vacancy data—

Oh, dear.

We've lost Amie there, have we?

Yes, I think she's lost her signal.

Okay. We've lost Amie's signal.

Okay. It was a very helpful answer. Nerys, is there anything you can fill in there?

Yes. So, the data hub that she was talking about, the prototype that we've developed and we've showcased to the RSP, we've done a bit more work around this data hub now, and demonstrated it to colleagues in Welsh Government as well. There's huge potential to having a data hub. You were talking about data in the previous sessions today. So, this data hub has potential to give us the information, and give that kind of thread from pre-16 right through to people in employment and not in employment. So, it could inform how we strategically plan provision, it can look at where the skills shortages are. There's huge potential to it, but, obviously, with something like that, it needs investment. We have discussed the prototype with Medr. We met with them last week. So, we're going to give a demo to Medr as well, because they certainly have a role to play in looking at the data across tertiary education.

That's very helpful for a report we might put together and a recommendation. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. [Interruption.] Thank you, Amie. Jenny, you're next.

Okay. I want to look at the success of the junior apprenticeship scheme, which is offered in five colleges. What have been the outcomes in terms of retaining people to move on to the next level? I think this is probably one for Careers Wales. So, is it Amie or Nerys?

Yes, I'm happy to take that up, Jenny. Thank you for that question. Junior apprenticeships, like you said, they're offered mainly in five of the 12 FE colleges across Wales. The performance data on it is contained in the recent Estyn review that was published around September time into junior apprenticeships. It does give the breakdown of the achievements of the young people, but they tended to progress on to FE provision. I think it's important that we remember that these young people are what would be considered a RAG learner in the main—a red learner in the RAG data—so, those most at risk of becoming NEET. So the fact that they've progressed and maintained a two-year course and then gone on to post-16 provision is actually a fantastic achievement.

Okay, so why haven't we got them covering the whole of Wales? Because there's nothing in north Wales, for example.

I don't know the answer to that, I'm sorry, Jenny. From what I understand from Estyn’s paper there are some funding complications around it and just a lack of pick-up in some places, just varying take-up.

Okay. But, ultimately, it's down to the agility of schools and colleges to devise curriculum offers that suit the needs of all learners. There's a reason why they're on these junior apprenticeships—that's because the core curriculum isn't suiting their needs. So, it would be really useful if we could have some greater understanding as to why, if it's been successful, it hasn't been rolled out further. But can I move on, because we're short of time? But you could perhaps tell us more about that, if you have anything further to say.

So, you used to be responsible, Careers Wales, for placements, and that's no longer in your remit. This is for work placements, for work experience. But, certainly in the disability and employment inquiry that the Equality and Social Justice Committee did, we heard that some learners were simply left in the classroom while everybody else went off to placements. So, what discussion have you had with schools and colleges on how they're going to overcome ensuring that everybody gets a work placement?

I'll respond to that question. Thank you. The picture in terms of work experience is very fragmented across the whole of Wales. You are right—Careers Wales were responsible for a central placing service up until 2015, and then, due to budgetary cuts, this was taken out of our remit. So, it's been quite a while since we were involved in arranging this national work experience placement service. Since then the picture across Wales, as I said, is very different. Some schools, or some local authorities, are funding FE colleges to find placements for pupils in schools; as we heard in previous sessions, parents are given the responsibility to look for placements. So, it's a very uneven and inequitable field of play across the board, without considering young people with additional learning needs or disabilities, who have fewer opportunities and are not able to progress as well as their peers in terms of employment.

Okay. We're short of time, so I think a note on this would be really useful: so, which local authorities are funding FE colleges, and which are just leaving it up to the family, which, obviously, is a huge social justice issue.

Yes, and the other issue here is that there are some local authorities using shared prosperity fund funding as well, which we know is going to come to an end in March, so it will have an implication then for what's available for young people.

Okay. I'd be grateful if you could send us a note on the detail on that.

Completed, Jenny?

Yes.

Thank you, Jenny. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. If I could just look at apprenticeship pathways, in our previous panel there was a brief discussion around how it can be difficult to map out progression from lower level to higher level apprenticeships. Is that something that you recognise? To what extent is this a challenge and how do we resolve it? I suppose this would probably, again, be a starter with Careers Wales, but I'd be interested to understand as well Make UK's position on it.

Okay, I'll take that one for now, Nerys. It is a real challenge and a real gap at the moment. It was one of the recommendations that came out of the vocational review that Sharron Lusher led on, the need for these vocational pathways for young people. As a starting point, I think it's important to point out that not everybody's career is linear and everyone's progression wouldn't necessarily be linear. It is easier, I would say, in some sectors than it is in other sectors to map out a really clear pathway—like accountancy, you go from 2, 3, 4, that way around the apprenticeships—whereas there are some, where portfolio work might account for more of career progression, where it might be more difficult.

Qualifications Wales have picked up this piece of work and we had a meeting with them before Christmas to discuss how we might work with them, and we're now working with them with some people from our website team. But it is something that's going to present lots of challenges. I don't think there'll be a one-size-fits-all approach to the pathway mapping for each and every sector across the apprenticeship portfolio.

Jamie.

Yes. Thank you. Just to echo one of the points that Amie made, I think it's really important to reflect that, as Amie said, progression is not always linear. And when we think about some of the upskilling and retraining needs in a sector like engineering and manufacturing, that might not necessarily look like somebody with a level 3 apprenticeship going on to levels 4, 5 and 6. If they have a retraining need, it might be level 3 to level 3. Just because that qualification is at the same level doesn't mean that it's not giving them the skills that they need in order to have improved job security, improved pay, improved labour market returns. So, I recognise some of the challenges around progression. We do see that. That's as much, I think, for the employer as well as the learner—helping employers to understand where progression might be valuable, where it could improve their productivity, improve the resilience of their workforce.

But I suppose I would caution, just reflecting back on that first question around the policy statement from 12 months ago, there's a line in there around lower level apprenticeships and lower level skills sitting alongside lower labour market returns, and I would just caution against being over-reliant on that interpretation. We do see workers with level 2, level 3 apprenticeships who perform very well in the labour market because they have a set of technical skills that are in high demand, in growing demand, and still in relatively short supply. So, they compete very well in the labour market and do very well. For those sorts of workers, actually, a linear progression might not be the most appropriate thing for them; it might not be what they want, it might not be what their employer needs, and it's not necessarily leaving them in a position where they lack resilience or they're low paid.

So, yes, I think we need to look at progression, but we need to look at that holistically, look at where, in terms of qualification levels, there might be sideways progression, effectively, but it's still giving people a different skill set that they need to adapt to changing labour market needs. But also some people don't necessarily need to progress in that sense; they have the skills that they need to continue to do the job that they will still be needed to do in the future. So, we recognise some of the challenges around progression, but I think sometimes the narrative gets a bit too focused on stepping up from level 3 to level 4 to level 5 to level 6.

There's definitely a need to address this, because, again, in the previous panel they were very clear that if you wanted to progress down an academic route it was quite simple to understand, and that could then be a barrier to getting more people on to a vocational course or wider apprenticeships, especially when you consider then the influence of parents in that. So, there's a need to definitely resolve this issue around making it clear how you progress through the different tiers. But if I can stick with Make UK for a moment, do you think that the current apprenticeship frameworks align with what employers actually want out of the apprenticeship programme?

I think, largely, they do. I think, fundamentally, the model of apprenticeship training works very well for employers in our sector. And, broadly speaking, the frameworks and the pathways align with the skills and knowledge that people working in the sector will need. The point I would make around frameworks is enabling them to be flexible enough to reflect how skills might change in the future. It's always a tricky question with apprenticeships, because, clearly, there is rightly a focus on occupational competence for a specific job, and it's right to have that. But, equally, there is a need to incorporate some of those more transferable skills that will enable a worker to adapt to future labour market needs—how their job might change over five, 10, 15, 20 years.

As I mentioned earlier, that second objective in the 2024 policy statement, around upskilling and retraining, we know that an increasing number of workers are going to need to upskill and retrain over the course of their careers. So, I think the question is: in those apprenticeship frameworks, firstly, is there enough flexibility for a young person doing those apprenticeships, that they have enough exposure to different types of work, different skills, different knowledge, to make them more resilient and reduce a bit of that need for upskilling and retraining in the future? And, secondly, are those frameworks and pathways flexible enough for working-age adults, who might need to upskill and retrain, and they're building on an existing set of prior learning, prior experience, and they need the apprenticeship training to reflect that? So, I think, broadly speaking, they are aligned with the needs, in terms of the content of those courses. I think it's about thinking about the flexibility of the delivery.

Just before you continue your questioning, Luke, Hefin, you indicated you wanted to come in here. You are down as a principal questioner on this section, so do you want to wait until then, or do you want to come in now, before Luke finishes his questions?

It's probably appropriate now, because it follows on from what Jamie was saying, if that's okay.

Fine. Go on.

I don't disagree with a lot of what Jamie said. There's certainly a key message there regarding vertical integration. But during the course of my research, I found an advocate for a rail degree apprenticeship programme. And we found that they had bespoke designed, Coleg y Cymoedd had bespoke designed, in partnership with the University of South Wales, a level 3, 4 and 5 rail apprenticeship, which then was—. They were desperate to get a degree apprenticeship off the ground, to capstone that. I've advocated for it in the report, and then the Welsh Government did it, they funded it. We've asked the Minister, Jack Sargeant, for information—I don't think we've had it back yet—on how that is going. But isn't that a prime example of where vertical integration can work really well? And my subsequent question is—. No, let's stop there. Is that not where this would work really well? Is it effective? I'll ask both you, Jamie, and if Careers Wales want to give a view on that as well, first of all.

Yes, I absolutely agree. My intention wasn't to suggest that that kind of integration doesn't work and isn't needed. Just to make the point that there need to be models that reflect different needs across industry, and, in some cases, that will be appropriate and work really well—and that's a really good example that you've just given—but it doesn't necessarily suit everybody. So, it's about making sure that things are tailored to both learner and employer needs. So, yes, I agree that that's a good example.

Would Careers Wales have a view on that particular programme, and how it might be mirrored in the public sector, or the private sector, or elsewhere?

Not specifically on that programme. I agree that there is need for that vertical integration, and that makes it clearer for an individual who's at the start of their career, the progression route. But it's not a one-size-fits-all, and I agree with Jamie, especially for people who want to change careers, and who want to upskill and reskill, there needs to be more flexibility; it's not a linear path. And that's where we find challenges with some of the customers that we are supporting: adult learners who are coming to us wanting to change careers, having to do a full apprenticeship framework rather than just top up their previous learning and their previous experiences, especially when we're talking around greening skills, net zero, and wanting to do short courses. They're not available, maybe, in Wales, they have to travel to England, the cost of those courses, and the flexibility. So, these are just additional challenges to the pathway conversation, I think.

Okay. And finally, lastly on that, this isn't helped either by the fact that there are very few degree apprenticeship programmes available. And they're never going to be available if they're continually reliant on Welsh Government funding. What other options are there to fund these programmes?

Is that to both panel contributors?

Jamie might have a view on it, and also Careers Wales as well. And that's my last question, Chair. I'll stop then.

Jamie, do you want to take it first and then any one of the colleagues from Careers Wales to take it?

Yes, happy to. I think this is the sort of thing where absolutely we see the need for increased provision at that level in industry. We know there is a shift towards greater demand for graduate-level technical skills over the coming years. The challenge is, yes, exactly where to find the money to do that, if it cannot be funded solely by Welsh Government. Given employers' experience of the apprenticeship levy and the poor returns that they've experienced on that to date, it's very difficult, I think, to make the case for additional industry investment, when they feel like they're not getting the return on the existing investment or co-investment they're making into that system. So, I suppose, I'm afraid, the answer is, 'I don't really know.'

Well, there's another group who could be paying for it, isn't there?

Yes.

The students. It's a tough question.

Okay. You don't know, Jamie. Careers Wales.

It is a challenging question, Hefin, and we don't know what's going to happen with the apprenticeship levy, and that is something that is key to inform us on this. I totally agree with you: we need more degree apprenticeships to cover a broader spectrum of sectors in Wales, desperately. If you ask me should the learners pay, they do pay for their higher education courses. There is an option there, but whether that then would create inequalities. Some young people wouldn't be able to access that from deprived backgrounds. I would have a few reservations around that. So, I'm sitting on the fence with this one. I don't know what the answer is, but—.

Okay. Hefin, are you happy with the—? Well, not necessarily happy, because we didn't get an answer.

Not happy that I've sat on the fence.

Yes. I think Nerys answered, and Jamie answered, really well. I think it just reflects where we are with this at this point in time, and we need to find a way through.

Okay. Thank you. Sam for the final section.

Thank you very much, Chair. Jamie, these sets of questions are going to be towards you with regard to Make UK, but I was just wondering about your view: is employer engagement with the apprenticeship programme adequate to provide apprenticeships across the range of frameworks at each level? And how does this compare across Wales? Are there areas of greater provision and areas with less provision?

I think, generally speaking, employer engagement, certainly speaking from the perspective of engineering and manufacturing, is strong. I don't think the challenge we see is with the appetite from employers to invest in that training and take up that training. I think the challenge is finding the right provision.

Are there necessarily specific gaps in parts of the country? I don't think we necessarily see strong evidence of parts of the country where the situation is notably worse than others. I think there is a general trend that employers feel that they struggle to find the right training provision locally. About 47 per cent of our members say that one of the barriers to greater investment in skills training is not being able to access the right provision locally. There are a range of reasons for that: funding, teaching staff shortages. All of those factors contribute, I think, to the struggle to find the right provision. So, there is absolutely an appetite for employers to take on more apprentices to engage across that programme. There's no lack of will there.

I think the challenge is finding that right provision. We know that funding constraints and, as I say, those teaching staff shortages are making that difficult for employers. I think there is more that we can do to improve employer engagement in the system, particularly among SMEs. I think awareness, thinking about the capacity that those businesses have, or they feel they have, to take on more apprentices, so I'm not saying that there's nothing that industry can do. I think there's much more we can do. But, equally, I think the fact is that one of the biggest barriers to employers of all sizes engaging more in the system is the struggle to find the right provision for them.

Okay, thank you. You mentioned there about small employers and SMEs, and I was just saying that we've had evidence from small employers who often face challenges related to the progression opportunities for apprentices due to the size of their business. Is this an issue that you'd recognise as well?

I think it's an issue, but probably not the only issue. Certainly, progression is a challenge where, in a very small business, there might not be an obvious progression route, although that person might be needed elsewhere. I think, in terms of that mentoring and leadership support for an apprentice, that can sometimes be a challenge, given the capacity constraints within a small business. So, you know, it's not just about developing their technical skills on the job, but the broader skillset in terms of communication, things like that, that might also enable them to progress upwards within the business.

So, I think there are a couple of issues there around the space that there is for someone to take on a new role or take on additional responsibilities as they progress in a small business. But also that capacity constraint as well for the existing workers in a small business to spend enough time with that apprentice to develop some of those additional workplace skills that might equip them with the ability to take on those roles. The—

Thank you. Sorry, thank you, Jamie. Just coming back to your initial point, do SMEs lack the knowledge about the benefits of having apprentices? How do we overcome that if they do? Those smaller SMEs who may think, 'It's a capacity issue', do they know that, actually, there's a benefit to them and their business as well by working with apprenticeships?

I think, sometimes, it is a struggle for SMEs to be able to see the longer term return on investment of recruiting an apprentice. I think, sometimes, there are initial barriers about, you're right, feeling like, perhaps, they lack a bit of the right information. They might feel a bit daunted about navigating a system that might feel a bit complex, that they don't have the time or the knowledge or the resource to dedicate to doing it properly. So, in overcoming that, I think there's a role for us in industry and for Welsh Government as well in being able to articulate, I suppose, what that return on investment looks like for a small business. So, the fact that an apprentice, in a relatively short space of time, can begin making a really productive contribution to the business, that it's an opportunity. We've just been talking about this thing about providing mentoring and that kind of support to an apprentice. It's an opportunity to start upskilling your existing workforce by giving an opportunity to someone to start supervising or managing, someone who might be a future line manager or team leader. There’s slightly more obvious stuff around kind of filling those future skills gaps, developing your future workforce, making user business more resilient to those future changes.

So, I think there’s a challenge for us, jointly perhaps—Welsh Government and industry—to really set out very clearly for those small businesses, firstly, what the long-term return on investment is, and looking past some of those initial barriers, and setting out very clear, very simple, easy to understand information for SMEs, to help them feel like there’s not too much of a challenge just to get started.

Thank you, Jamie, and you’ve answered my supplementary question on that, then, about what needs to be done around it. And forgive me, Nerys and Amie, for focusing just on Jamie in that line of questioning. But moving on to our broader economic needs, how successful are apprenticeships in Wales at the moment at meeting the skills gap and the requirements of Wales’s economy? I’m not sure who wants to kick that one off.

I'm happy—

Go ahead.

—to have an initial stab at that one. I think I’d probably go back to a previous point, which is that employers in our sector use apprenticeships and invest in apprenticeship training because it works. That sort of basic model of work-based training gives them what they need. I think, by and large, the frameworks and pathways within the system in Wales at the moment are meeting those current skills needs. The challenge is looking forward and how we make those kind of flexible and adaptable enough to meet future skills needs and to reflect the fact that working-age adults, as well as young people coming into the labour market for the first time, will need to access that training, and so it's how do we think about the models of delivery and how those are made more flexible for those people.

Okay, thank you. Amie, Nerys, anything to contribute?

The only thing I would add to that—it’s a really challenging question and it's difficult to answer, really—is, I think, going back to the data discussion, and having that data around success rates and where people, once they’ve done an apprenticeship—where do they progress, and how do they progress? I think there’s a gap there in our knowledge to be able to evaluate how impactful apprenticeships are in tackling the skills shortages. We know there are huge skills shortages across all sectors in Wales, so we haven’t reached there yet.

I think the work of Medr is going to be key, in terms of looking at the whole framework and creating the new apprenticeships for Wales, but it’s too early to have any kind of evaluation on that yet. But I think there’s much more to do, I guess.

That's helpful, because another line of questioning I’ve had with previous panels is around the flexibility of the apprenticeship frameworks to adapt to the changing needs of the economy. And we know that there are quite a few things in the pipeline, quite literally, around changes to Wales’s economy. Is that flexibility something that Careers Wales, Make UK, are calling for, so that service providers can change to the needs of the economy if the economy shifts quite quickly in a specific direction?

I think, with the rapid change in the way we work, the technology, automation, AI, trying to keep up with those changes—and we’ve heard in the previous meetings this morning that it’s such a slow process to get a qualification set up and being able to deliver that—there is a mismatch there between the changes in the workplace and our provisions to match that. Jamie may be able to talk a bit more about how they deal with that in his industry, but that is definitely something that we hear quite a lot in Careers Wales.

Okay, thank you. Jamie.

Yes, it is a really difficult challenge, because, of course, we were saying earlier about an apprenticeship being focused on occupational competence. It is absolutely right that apprenticeship training is focused on a person being able to do a specific job, and, of course, you can't do an apprenticeship in a job as it might exist in 10 years' time, you do the apprenticeship in a job as it exists now. And so there is always going to be this tension, I think, between rightly having a very rigorous approach to competence for the job that you're doing now and making sure that it's flexible enough to reflect how that job might evolve. And we do often hear frustration, I think, from employers that there isn't necessarily enough flexibility in the framework model to enable an apprentice to go in to maybe slightly different parts of the business and experience different things. It's too restrictive in that sense. And actually enabling a bit more of that flexibility, without compromising too much on occupational competence, really helps just the employability and productivity of the person doing the apprenticeship. But it's a really, really difficult balance to get right, I think.

Thank you.

Jenny.

Diolch. So, what's your strategy, then, for ensuring that employers aren't just putting their heads in the sand and not thinking about the changes that are coming down the road and to have a work development plan that is going to enable them to stay in business? Jamie, I just wanted to follow on from there. So, if somebody can unmute Jamie, please.

Sorry, I missed your first few words there. Could you repeat the question?

Okay. I just wanted to—. I understand that you're saying that it's very difficult to get apprenticeships in things that haven't been invented yet, but how do we ensure that employers' skills development plans are smart in understanding the risks and the opportunities, otherwise they won't be in business for very long? I think earlier witnesses have talked about SMEs simply not having a skills development plan.

Yes. I agree with the premise of your question. I think employers are very alive to that and they want to be able to be as flexible as they can with their apprentices in terms of giving them the skills that both the learner needs and the business needs for the future, but, clearly, that programme of development is also largely defined by the apprenticeship framework and the pathway that they follow and to enable the learner to get the qualification that they need at the end of it. And I suppose the point is that the sense from the employers that are our members and we speak to is that, in some cases, it can feel like some of the restrictiveness around the focus on the occupational competence within the apprenticeship framework limits their ability to do as much of that wider skills development as they would like. So, that's the point that I'm trying to make there. It's not necessarily that the employers are not aware of it, but sometimes that, in thinking about their wider skills development plans, following the programme as set out in a framework can sometimes feel a bit too restrictive to allow them to do that.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, Sam. That's all the questions we have this morning. Thank you for attending and, obviously, offering your thoughts on the inquiry that we're undertaking and informing that inquiry. A transcript will be sent over to your good selves for you to have a look at and, obviously, if there's anything once you go off camera that you think you would have liked to have added to any of the questions that have been put to you, please do provide that information to the committee and it will be circulated to Members for their deliberations. But, once again, thank you for attending today and for your answers.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

I'd just like to draw Members' attention to the papers to note, which I should have done at the start of the meeting, from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee about the legislative consent memorandum on the Data (Use and Access) Bill.

I call on a Member to move now that we go into private session to discuss the evidence that we've received this morning. [Interruption.] And seconded. We'll now go into private session. Thank you.