Equality and Social Justice Committee

Thank you very much, Chair, and I'm very pleased to be here with the committee for the scrutiny of the draft budget. You will know that, obviously, I've produced written evidence on the draft budget scrutiny. In fact, that question about how we are reaching out and ensuring that we are supporting that 20 per cent who have the least is driving all the priorities of the whole of the Welsh Government, but obviously in my portfolio I am focusing on and targeting those who have the least. Of course, it is about tackling poverty and reducing inequalities, but I think in the written statement I do point to the important points about how equality and social justice are driving priority setting, and you do that through the strategic integrated impact assessment.

But also, I think importantly, equality, race and disability evidence units are now, as I said in my written evidence, reviewing evidence relating, of course, to the 'Wellbeing of Wales' report and measuring the impact of the milestones, the national survey for Wales and the annual survey of hours and earnings, which then inform all budget setting. So, it is in line with all the priorities of the Welsh Government that these draft budget allocations have been made.

We have increased funding. We are in a different place than we were when we sat here this time last year, I have to say, with colleagues on this committee, the Equality and Social Justice Committee. But, for me, it is about all of those important income streams that reach out to people—the discretionary assistance fund, the single advice fund, the way we support tackling food poverty, the support for the third sector, ways in which we support credit unions and all our equality plans—and making sure that we're monitoring and evaluating the impacts of the funds that we are making available. You will see increases across the board in all of those grant streams, which are really important to making sure that we're helping those with the least in Wales.

As you said in your written statement, in March it'll be 10 years since the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but, last year, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales said about last year's budget that the process of embedding prevention into the budget process hasn't yet materialised. How do you think that has changed now that you have a less constrained budget than last year?

Well, we're very much guided by the well-being goals set out in the well-being of future generations Act, and, of course, this is the way that, as I said, we track how we are measuring change, including ways in which the impact of a more preventative approach can deliver on the national well-being indicators, under the well-being of future generations framework. But, I think, in terms of the focus on prevention, which is key to budget making, key to the strategic impact assessment, but also the budget improvement approach, then prevention is at the heart of the agenda.

I think, in terms of prevention, I would particularly want to focus on the ways in which we're supporting, for example, the third sector, with an increased allocation—a 7 per cent increase on previous years—as the third sector are very clearly involved in prevention and reaching the needs of those with the least, so sustaining the third sector. But also to ensure that the work that we're doing in terms of longer term solutions isn't just about, for example, funding foodbanks, which we are putting more money into, but also looking for ways of increasing and sustaining the food partnerships, where they are looking more strategically at the long-term measures that we can take to tackle food poverty and achieve more sustainable food justice in our communities. Also, I would say the increased investment in violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence—of course, that in itself is a preventative measure to improve support.

But I think you will see in my written statement that I have a section on preventative funding, which I think is really important. If you see the ways in which—. And, rightly, the finance Secretary would want us to say that this is a preventative approach to spending and the hard choices that we have to make. But—I've mentioned food poverty—the fact is that the local food partnerships, as I've said in my written statement, can deliver food-related projects that have a far greater, significant impact, not just the immediate support, but also the funding that we're putting into the discretionary assistance fund—that uplift as well.

I hope we will have a chance to discuss the One Wales scheme, which I mention in terms of female and youth justice, because this is also about prevention to keep women particularly, and young people, out of the criminal justice system.

Very good. Well, I'll resist the temptation to pursue you on food justice; we can come back to that in a moment. Let's just move on and discuss things by individual themes, so, Julie Morgan.

Prynhawn da. It's obviously very good news that there's an increase in the budget, so that's very encouraging. I was going to ask about the voluntary sector in particular. I think we all know the difficulties that the voluntary sector does face with rising overheads, and it's very good, as I've said, to hear that there will be an increase in the funding. But I don't know whether you've been able to assess how the increase in funding will help to address the issues of the overhead costs that they are facing in the voluntary sector.

Well, I think I've just mentioned—and thank you very much for that question—how important the voluntary sector, the third sector, is in terms of the overall well-being of Wales, in tackling inequalities and meeting the needs of those with the least, and how, with this budget, we are really able to address some of the challenges facing the third sector. I've mentioned already that it's a 7 per cent increase on previous years, and that's an increase to the infrastructure, to Third Sector Support Wales, which of course actually underpins all those who work in the third sector—staff and volunteers. I think it is important to recognise, to put on the record again, as I'm sure I've done before, that we've got 40,000 voluntary organisations operating across Wales, from the small, the local, the regional to the national. And the infrastructure includes funding our county voluntary councils, which all of you, I know, engage with and are so crucial to supporting our communities.

In terms of the challenge for the third sector, it is important to see that uplift of the funding for Third Sector Support Wales, but we've also supported across the whole of my portfolio many third sector organisations with a 3 per cent increase to third sector grants. One of the areas—. We're trying to help the third sector in terms of addressing the needs of those they support. It's really important that we're putting £1.2 million into the Newid programme. That's a partnership between WCVA, ProMo-Cymru and Cwmpas. They really do need that help with digital skills training and mentoring to enable the voluntary sector to upskill in terms of digital.

Also another important issue, area of funding, is the Wales revitalising trust. That's a partnership between Welsh Government, the Charity Commission and Community Foundation Wales. And that's had an £11.64 million increase in funding to support communities. They're using the dormant and inefficient charities funding; we're bringing that back into use. We are also working with the third sector, I have to say, to support them in terms of a code of practice for funding, so that those who fund them, not just Welsh Government—that we actually have an expectation for a code of practice for funding the third sector. For example, organisations should be given a minimum of 12 weeks' notice of funding decisions. The code is under review at the moment. We'll shortly be publishing a revised, updated version.

One of the most important things I would say, and you will all be aware of it, is the close working relationship with the third sector since day one of devolution, when we set up the third sector partnership council. And, indeed, then, through that, the infrastructure, Third Sector Support Wales, with the funding that we provide, has meant that we have developed this code of practice for funding the third sector. And, indeed, we're working on revitalising the ways in which, together, we support volunteers in Wales. So, it's close partnership working so that we are informed with those who are working on the front line of the third sector, which is crucially important in these very challenging times that they've been through—the pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis, 14 years of austerity, the impact on grants—that have been so difficult.

Yes. Thank you very much. Diolch. Have you been able to make any assessment of the implications of the rise in the living wage and the national insurance contributions, what impact that will have on the third sector?

Well, that has been a concern that has been raised, and been raised with me in Plenary and in many discussions in the last few weeks. Again, it goes back to that our close working relations with the third sector are important. Officials are working with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and third sector to understand the impact of changes that are coming about as a result of the rise in national insurance contributions and the national living wage on the voluntary sector. So, we're continuing to receive that information. Obviously, this is a decision made by the UK Government, but we are also looking at the positive impact, for example, of the increase in employment allowance, which is particularly helping smaller third sector organisations. And I'd expect any additional funding for public services to benefit the third sector. It's not just our funding streams for the third sector; it's our partners' funding as well. It's important that—I've already outlined—I've given a 7 per cent increase to the third sector infrastructure Wales and the 3 per cent across the board, I think, for other organisations is helpful, and I know I've met with my county voluntary council, and it's the smaller organisations who aren't affected, or even benefited from that uplift in employer allowance. But we are looking at—working with them and understanding—what the impact has been. But, as I say, the uplift in the budget this year is so important to enable me in my role as Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice to give more funding for the third sector overall, and I hope that will alleviate the impact of these changes.

Yes. Thank you very much.

Could I just ask: in your remit letter, how much emphasis is put on the importance of prevention in whatever role the voluntary sector organisation is going to be delivering on?

Well, we have grant-giving arrangements, grant allocation arrangements, which, with the—. We don't quite have remit letters in the same way as perhaps with our public sector bodies, but we're very clear in terms of impact analysis, evaluating. In all grant giving to the third sector, we expect the third sector to have an impact and evaluation in terms of outcomes for the funding that we're giving them, and that is all about prevention.

In many ways, my portfolio and the support that we're giving to the organisations, albeit a small budget, impact is absolutely of the—. It's not just about what you do, a list and reports of actions; it's actually outcomes. And I think we can see that that comes through. I mean, Claire and I visited Cardiff and Vale Credit Union just before Christmas because we'd given them an uplift to the loans for people where there's high risk in terms of loans, and we've given this money to the credit unions because they can't get loans from anywhere else. We want to keep them away from illegal lenders and pay-day lenders. And they were able to show us the impact of those small loans, weren't they, Claire, on people's lives, preventing those people from falling into homelessness, more debt. And that input that we have—. It was £1.7 million, I think, extra, over and above what we'd already given to credit unionsFootnoteLink. It's a real example of prevention, I think. You might want to add to that, Claire.

Yes. I think what struck me from that visit was the qualitative data. So, we get information around the number of people helped and the value of the loans, but what we had fed back were the individual stories, people who were terribly anxious about their financial situation, terribly anxious about their future, and that small change of being able to get a loan for a particular area and start to build their credit history was transforming their lives, and I think, for me, that kind of personal case study had a real impact.

Thank you. Back to you, Julie.

Yes. Finally, really, the other question was: Age Alliance said they'd like to see more timely decisions around funding for the sector, and I wondered if you could talk about the possibilities of longer term funding for the sector.

Well, that's, again, back to this strong working relationship that we have with the third sector, and I think those concerns raised by Age Alliance, I hope—and, obviously, we meet with Age Alliance alongside all of the sector, particularly, I have to say, not just myself, but all Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers have that role to meet with the third sector in relation to their policy area—is this revised code of practice that we're developing—. Because it is crucial that we enable third sector organisations to feel confident that they have got a sustainable stream of funding.

This time of the year is very worrying in terms of what's going to happen next with the draft budget and uncertainty, but we do have—. In terms of that code of practice, there are five principles when funding third sector organisations. I'll just quickly say: early and continuous dialogue; equity of access; valuing and outcomes; appropriate funding mechanisms; and flexibility. And this is about fair and sustainable funding for the sector. Now, we would want the code of practice and the way that we work as Welsh Government to be reflected and cascaded through to health bodies and health boards and local government as well, who are the principal funders of the third sector. So, again, we've got more certainty now for the third sector in terms of an increase in the budget, and also the infrastructure in terms of codes of practice and delivery of grant aid, which I think will be helpful.

One example, I think, I'd like to give, which has been very much welcomed, is the single advice fund. The single advice fund, of course, funds all those organisations giving advice to people, absolutely people who we can prevent falling into poverty. So, I've actually been able to provide a three-year funding stream for our single advice fund. And, again, impacts—I think it's important to look at the impact between January 2020 and September 2024. Services have helped more than 335,000 people in Wales to claim additional income of over £160 million and have debts totalling £43.6 million written off. The single advice fund now has clarity that it's three-year funding, and I think that the response was really positive, wasn't it, Amelia?

It was, yes.

Thank you.

Very good. Thank you very much. Sioned Williams.

Chair.

Jane wants to come in.

Jane, sorry, I apologise if I didn't see you indicate.

No, that's okay.

I'll just take Jane Dodds first and then come back to you, Sioned.

Thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary, we heard that you were looking at the impact of the budget, particularly in terms of the smaller payments you're making to organisations, but without—and I've mentioned this before—targets in the child poverty strategy, how can you measure what sort of impact the budget is having on child poverty, for example? And is there an intention to bring forward targeting in terms of child poverty? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Jane.

This is something where you know that we have developed a measurement framework for our child poverty strategy, and this is something where I think, in terms of our powers and levers in Wales, it is important that we can measure, and we have, obviously, our well-being indicators under the well-being of future generations legislation. But we looked to Professor Rod Hick to help us with developing that monitoring framework to make sure that we could target effectively, seeing the impacts. We've just given a good example about the impact of a small loan through a credit union and what that can mean for a family who would otherwise risk falling into poverty. But, again, I'd be very happy to come back to the committee, if you feel you need more information on the measuring, the child poverty framework.

I will bring in Claire, because I know she's very involved in this, but one of the things that are important in terms of the child poverty work that we're doing and the strategy is that the UK Government now is developing UK Government child poverty strategy, and there is now a four-nations taskforce. In fact, I'm meeting the four nations—we've got a meeting Wednesday afternoon. That's the Scottish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive, myself as Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary and the UK Government, who chair this four-nations taskforce. They're doing work on a monitoring framework and measuring the impacts of tackling child poverty. Rod Hick has been invited onto that working group, so, at the highest level and across all four nations, we are looking at this issue about how we can effectively, as you say, target child poverty with the most effective actions and get the evidence about what we're doing and how that is reducing poverty. The very first key objective of our child poverty strategy is to reduce costs and maximise the incomes of families, and then to create pathways out of poverty so that children and young people have opportunities to realise their potential. All the work I'm doing on income maximisation, child benefit, the Welsh benefits charter and the discretionary assistance fund, et cetera, is all engaged in reducing costs and maximising the incomes of families. But I think if we could get Claire in on the measurement framework, it would be helpful.

Thank you. Just to add to that, there are three strands to our work on measuring the progress on the child poverty strategy. So, we've got the measurement framework measuring those kinds of population indicators, but, alongside that, we'll have a strand that's measuring progress on the outputs from the commitments in the strategy. And finally, I think a really key third strand is lived experience and people who are experiencing poverty, as to what their experiences are and whether they've seen an improvement. So, it's worth adding that. It's also worth noting that we have offered a technical briefing to the committee on the framework and I believe that that is being put in place for February.

Yes.

Oh, good.

Rod Hick is going to be coming, as well. Jane.

Yes. So, no targets.

So, no targets. Just a 'yes' or 'no' would be helpful. Thank you. That's all. Thank you, Chair.

So, no targets. Is that correct, at the moment?

Well, I'm really pleased that you're having this measurement framework [correction: you're having briefing on the measurement framework] and we feel that the measurement framework and the dimensions of it are going to enable us to see how we can effectively tackle child poverty. Thank you.

Excellent. We look forward to that discussion. Sioned Williams.

Thank you very much. Good afternoon. I would like to go back a little bit to what you were discussing with Julie Morgan in terms of the importance of the third sector. You mentioned how important they were in terms of that preventative impact that your budget is trying to support. Also, you have acknowledged the increase that there's been in the demand for them, and also the impact of the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis on their ability to be funded, and austerity, of course—the austerity of the previous Government played a part in that too. But, you haven't been able to give us this afternoon information relating to your assessment of the impact of the increase in their costs—for example, the increase in the national insurance contributions. So, without that information, how can you be confident that the increase that you've mentioned—that 7 per cent and the 3 per cent—is going to be sufficient to meet the increasing demand and also to make sure that the sector is sustainable? Because we have received a letter to the committee today from Tenovus and they used the word 'unsustainable' and really want the Welsh Government to make that good, to mitigate the effect of this increase in third sector costs. Because it's them, in truth—and you have said this this afternoon—who provide that necessary support and that preventative support for the people who most need our support in society.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. Well, I hope—and it's in the written evidence, as well, to the committee—that you will see that, this year, we have managed that additional funding: £2 million revenue, £2.9 million capital to support the third sector across Wales, which will help address the challenges that they face. Also, I think it's important to—. Look, I've mentioned the volunteering in Wales and how we're enhancing that. They're at the sharp end of delivering services. But many of these organisations, the smaller organisations, will not be affected, for example, by the employers' NI lift, because they're also going to benefit from the employer allowance uplift. The larger organisations, yes, of course that is a challenge to them, and, indeed, across Government, it's not just my funding that reaches out and supports the third sector, but many grant-giving arrangements for all of my Cabinet colleagues in terms of health, education, environment, housing—they're all being supported by the Welsh Government with an uplift in funding.

I think it’s also important that we look to those organisations in other ways, such as the support from the additional money that we’re giving to the community facilities programme. That is such an important programme in terms of capital, with an additional £2.9 million, as I said in my written statement. Also, the community asset loan fund has £1.5 million in financial transaction loan capital. There is a huge call for extra funding for the community facilities programme, and the community asset loan fund is a very innovative and effective way in which we can support that transition that takes place often between the public and third sectors. But I think this is something where I’m working, as I said, Sioned, Chair and colleagues, with the third sector to understand impacts. It has been welcomed, the fact that we’ve had this 7 per cent increase on previous years. So, I think there is strength in partnership between us, there is the extra funding, there is the code of practice, and, of course, all colleagues across the Welsh Government are meeting with the third sector in their different policy areas to understand their needs.

So, I can take it from your answer that you do think that the uplift is sufficient. For example, I said that Tenovous said that they think the increase in their costs in light of this will be £0.25 million annually.

'It’s equivalent to the cost of running our benefits advice service.'

So, you are content with the allocation that you have given in your budget for this year, that it will mitigate the impacts for those groups affected and who provide services, like the one that Tenovous have quoted.

Well, there are some organisations that—I recall the letter from Tenovous—are very dependent on fundraising. We recognise that that is a challenge for them. But I think, as to the community projects foundation and the partnerships, the revitalising fund that I mentioned, the Wales revitalising trust, the way that we’re working with the Charity Commission, Community Foundation Wales, looking at particularly those kinds of organisations that are more trust-funded based and don’t necessarily seek or receive Government funding, then we need to work with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. They are the kind of infrastructure support national body, to look at ways in which they can be supported. We need more trust funding to come into Wales and to reach out to those organisations. We have to recognise the huge generosity of Welsh people to organisations like Tenovous. I think, last week, I was asked this question and I was talking about the uplift and support for hospices, for example, recognising that this is something that would come under the health and social care budget. I think all I can do today is say that I will be very closely engaged, involved, working with and listening through our third sector partnership council, to the impacts of these changes. But, hopefully, the uplifts that I’ve made in my budget will go a long way to support them.

Thank you. One other thing that a lot of people were looking for, I think, in this budget was some kind of action taken by the Welsh Government to mitigate the fact that the UK Government have removed the winter fuel payment for a large number of older people in Wales. That has happened, of course, in Scotland and Northern Ireland. What consideration did you give to this, because, obviously, that is something preventative, isn't it?

In the same way, the benefits charter is something that is trying to work to make sure that everyone does get what they're entitled to. So, what work has been done to accelerate that charter and the work that's being done on that, and most importantly, perhaps, to put resources behind the implementation of that charter and to accelerate the work in the budget? Are you confident that £500,000 split between 22 local authorities is sufficient in that regard? Could you tell us about the winter fuel payments and then also the work on the charter?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. The winter fuel payment, of course, is not devolved. It's a benefit that isn't devolved to Wales. It's devolved to Northern Ireland, and it will be to Scotland from this year. But it's not devolved to Wales, so we wouldn't be able to legislate for an equivalent winter fuel payment scheme. You can—and we were able to—have a short-term immediate payment regime, which we had two or three years ago, when the cost-of-living crisis was beginning to really take hold. We could do that within our powers, just to have that one-off, short-term winter fuel payment that we made, but we can't do this in terms of any long-term equivalent that's been delivered in Scotland, for example, and Northern Ireland. But we find our own ways in which—. We've found important routes to help in terms of tackling fuel poverty, and I do think the work that we're doing with the Fuel Bank Foundation is really important. It's an additional £700,000 for the Fuel Bank Foundation, and that's helping with prepayment vouchers, and also in many in other ways in which the fuel vouchers and the Fuel Bank Foundation are helping.

I think the discretionary assistance fund is underestimated in terms of the ways in which it can also reach out and help people in terms of fuel payments, fuel support, energy and, indeed, food needs as well. I'm very pleased I've managed to get the £1.5 million for warm hubs. I visited a warm hub in Llanddewi Velfrey in Pembrokeshire before Christmas, where so many activities were tackling loneliness, with advice giving and just bringing people together. We were talking about the impact of the storms—storm Bert and storm Darragh—and what it had meant to people there. I'm visiting another one in Pontarddulais shortly. So, we are doing what we can in terms of supporting people, particularly older people, with fuel costs. And, of course, that means, going to your point about the Welsh benefits charter, making sure that people do claim the benefits they're entitled to, including pension credit. We've been very involved in that work, which the UK Government has led, in terms of improving the take-up of pension credit, particularly before 21 December, so that people who were eligible could then access the UK Government winter fuel payment.

I will be making a statement tomorrow on the Welsh benefits charter and income maximisation, so I'll be updating on the work of 22 local authorities. It was a huge achievement that we got all 22 authorities to sign up to the Welsh benefits charter—so, the basic principles of a more compassionate, accessible Welsh benefits system. I won't, perhaps, Chair, go into this in great detail now, because I hope we will get good scrutiny—I'm sure robust scrutiny, as well—tomorrow on the work that we're doing, but I am very pleased that we are going to be able to engage with Policy in Practice, which is the data analytics company, which you're very aware of, which did work with the Bevan Foundation to show ways in which we can get access to the data that will enable local authorities to target people who will be eligible for a wide range of benefits over and above the three benefits that the Welsh benefits charter phase 1 is looking to enable people to access, and those are, of course, free school meals, council tax reduction schemes and the school essentials grant as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We were expecting, weren't we, some sort of timetable for the phases of the Welsh benefits charter. A year ago, you launched that and said that we would have an announcement about the timetable as to how it would be implemented, but we didn't get that until September last year. I'm pleased that we're going to have an update now, but of course you have, in the information you provided about your budget today, mentioned that you were going to allocate £0.5 million to the local authorities to support this work. We are still in phase one.

I'd like to understand better whether you think that is enough funding to support the work, since we know, for example, that the WLGA say that there's a £0.5 billion black hole that they're facing with the budget as it is, and that that's going to be maybe £400 million next year of deficit. So they're looking at cutting resources, cutting staff, cutting jobs and services. In that context, do you think that it is sufficient?

Why, for example—? We've seen good work happening in Neath Port Talbot with Policy in Practice. It's the local authority themselves taking the reins there to identify those people who were entitled to pension credit. What work have you done to encourage other councils to do that?

Diolch yn fawr. I will go into this in more detail tomorrow, but the Welsh benefits charter, all local authorities signed up to it. They agreed to a phase one. There is an operations group that's delivering on this, which includes all those senior responsible officers in local authorities who are actually responsible for revenue and benefits. To actually deliver that phase one means that you need—. Many authorities are already on the pathway to ensure that that one application for free school meals, school essentials grant and also council tax reduction scheme—. Some authorities are already doing it: one application, get the three benefits. But to get all authorities on board is phase one.

I've met with them. We also have the Bevan Foundation and other organisations who are also working on the advisory group. It's chaired by Fran Targett, the advisory group, who was from Citizens Advice. So, I'm confident that our partnership with the Welsh Local Government Association, including all our authorities, all the leaders who I've met to talk about this, they want to make this work, and it is their responsibility. They know that if they get this to work, they'll have more money coming into their communities, more money in people's pockets. And it's a crucial tool to tackle child poverty.

In addition to that, I will be announcing tomorrow £550,000 to have an additional strand of work with Policy in Practice. We asked local authorities if they would like to be involved in this scheme, and 11 have come forward. Eleven local authorities have come forward, and we also have Neath Port Talbot. We have two or three other authorities who are going to join us in assessing this new initiative with Policy in Practice. And I think you'll find that those authorities who've already been meeting to discuss how they're going to implement this will see a huge opportunity to ensure that their citizens can access their benefits. And not just Welsh benefits, but UK Government benefits: pension credit, Healthy Start vouchers. We know that's going to have a huge impact. If parents actually access their Healthy Start vouchers, we know that's another tool in terms of tackling poverty.

I could go on, and I know you've got many questions, but I think tomorrow we'll have more chance to hear about it.

Let's pursue this matter further tomorrow. You mentioned the EMA and school essentials a moment ago, and I just wondered if you could clarify whether either of these are going to have their floor or their eligibility criteria increased given inflation. It was something that the Bevan Foundation called for, so that the thresholds and the cash value of these important grants keep pace with inflation. Is there anything in the budget that will reflect the increasing price of children's shoes, for example?

That's obviously for the education Minister. In terms of listening and learning and uplift and lived experience, as Claire has said, during this year—. The discretionary assistance fund is my main source funding, as you know, which you've backed. I'm really grateful; this committee always backed the fact that we kept that as a priority last year. It's uplifted. But during the year, we did get evidence from the Bevan Foundation. We engaged with the Bevan Foundation and Citizens Advice Cymru. In fact, you'll recall they published a report, 'Reaching crisis point: the story in Wales', last October, and as a result we made changes.

One thing that we did do was an uplift—. And this is an example of how we've responded to need and challenge. We've uplifted the off-grid fuel payments in the discretionary assistance fund from November to a single payment of £500 for a tank of oil or gas, or three payments of £82.50 for gas canisters in any 12-month rolling period. And also, an additional cooking and fridge freezer appliances payment, which is the individual assisted payment element. That, actually, is reflecting stakeholder feedback as well.

But I think, as I said, this is across the whole Welsh Government in terms of uplifts. I've just sought to advise you about those kinds of responses that I've been able to make in my budget in terms of meeting those needs, in terms of the off-grid fuel.

Okay, thank you very much. Jane Dodds.

Thank you, Chair. I want to ask please about the long-term position. How are you going to work in the long term with regard to the position we're in now in terms of people living in poverty? The budget mentions the cost-of-living crisis and you've mentioned what you're doing about that. But could I ask you what your intention is in terms of the budget to help people in the long term who are in a situation of poverty? Thank you very much.

We have a lot to recover, don't we, Jane, after 14 years of austerity and cuts not just to our funding but to benefits across the board. During those years—I think particularly going back to the Cabinet Secretary for finance's ambitions for this budget—we've sought to reach out to help those who most need our support and to tackle inequalities, and to ensure that we can be innovative in ways in which we do that. I think our basic income pilot was a bold step to take. It's very much in terms of prevention and future investment in our looked-after children. We wanted to find a way in which we could support our looked-after children with our basic income pilot. Even at a time of great financial pressure, we invested. I'm very proud of our basic income pilot as a more long-term example of ways in which we can support those who need it most, and whose whole life spectrum can be affected by ways in which we provide that support.

But I do want to turn back to our child poverty strategy, Jane. It is setting the direction for the whole of the Welsh Government to tackle child poverty over the next decade or more, and to have that longer term approach and solution to tackling poverty. I've mentioned the key tenets of that already—reducing costs and maximising income for families, creating pathways out of poverty. That's where we need the youth engagement and progression framework. We need the young person's guarantee. We don't just want to have those one-off emergency payments—discretionary assistance fund, Fuel Bank Foundation—we actually have to have ways in which we are enabling young people, through the curriculum and through economic and skills programmes, to progress.

The youth engagement and progression framework is not in my portfolio, but it actually does help to tackle the impact of poverty on educational attainment. But also, surely just in terms of an immediate policy direction and investment, there’s the fact that we are the first UK nation to offer free school meals to all primary learners. Yes, we can see that as an immediate contribution, but I do think universal primary free school meals—which of course we brought into being when we were in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru—will have a transformational impact on those children and their lives as they move forward. And that is a key example of ways in which we can support children and young people to address longer term challenges and find those solutions to tackling poverty.

This very much fits in with the First Minister's priorities in terms of opportunity for every family, jobs and green growth, connecting communities, iechyd da. It's supporting child and family well-being so they can enjoy their rights and better outcomes, ensuring children and young people are treated with dignity and respect by the people and services who interact with and support them. That's a key point of our child poverty strategy. It's about the fact that, when I visited St Paul's primary school this morning, in Grangetown, the children there were absolutely on board with the UN convention on the rights of the child—they know what their rights are. They were telling me about the ways in which they were delivering an anti-racist plan for their primary school here in Cardiff, in Grangetown. They were so enlightened, these children, and they had such self-confidence in terms of dignity and respect. You have to look at the ways in which we are developing the curriculum, as well as delivering on those equality plans as well, I think, to look to the future in terms of those longer term solutions.

But I do want to just quickly say we are learning from each other, from local authorities. We've got a child poverty grant, and 22 projects have been funded. I'm going to visit two of them in Swansea on Thursday. We're putting more money into the child poverty grant. One of the projects that I'm visiting is the Swansea Council tackling poverty service, looking at ways in which young people are experiencing poverty, learning from them in terms of their lived experience. And there’s also Positive Programmes for children in Bridgend, for example, helping young people in that area. And we are also learning from a community of practice in terms of the national child poverty strategy. We mustn't look to us being the only ones who have got responsibility here—local authorities are driving this change as well. I think the child poverty grant is enabling that in terms of facilitating innovation at a local and regional level.

Thank you very much. It's excellent to hear about initiatives that are happening at a local level in communities, but we want to see what's happening in terms of policies across Wales. If it's okay, can I go back to the basic income for children who are care experienced? You say you want that to continue—that is, that it's been very successful. What is the reason for it not continuing? Because in the budget, we see that it has saved over £9.2 million. That is, you have that in hand to spend, to have an opportunity to carry on with the pilot, or with the programme, with that basic income for care-experienced children. So, why isn't that happening, please? Thank you.

Diolch, Jane. I know your support, and very much value your support, for the basic income pilot. But, of course, it was a pilot and we're coming to the end of the pilot period. So, inevitably, that does mean that there isn't the need for the substantial funding that we had to support the pilot in the early days. It is a pilot. Most recipients will have left the pilot during the next financial year—that's how we designed it. In fact, August 2025 was always going to be the completion of the pilot.

In terms of payment to the young people, we are in the evaluation phase and that's going to continue until 2027, and we'll just need a smaller amount of budget to support that. So, I think that explains why there is a reduction in the budget, because we're coming to the end of the pilot.

Can I say, Jane, and to the Chair, that we're very mindful of supporting young people who are coming out of the pilot as well, in terms of advice and support, working with Citizens Advice, local authority leaving teams? I think the next evaluation—is it February that we're going to have an update?

Yes.

I mean, I will want to obviously share that with yourselves to see the impact of the—. Two years it was always, the transition now we're in, in terms of that pilot.

I can see that we're running out of time, Chair, so just one another question, please, and that is: what do you intend to do in the long term with regard to food poverty, please? We've talked a little bit about the situation where you're supporting foodbanks, but we have a situation here in Wales where there are many people who do not have food in the longer term. What is your intention in terms of the budget and this subject? And that's the final question from me in this section. Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr. I think it's really important to look at ways in which the money that we've given to address food poverty has been spent. I'm allocating an additional £1.5 million for tackling food poverty. That's direct food support to foodbanks, pantries, local arrangements. But I think I mentioned this earlier on, that we do need to look at more sustainable and longer term ways in which we can tackle food poverty, and that's why I've been able to allocate £960,000 to fund the co-ordinators of the local food partnerships. I mean, that does take overall allocation delivering support for those experiencing food poverty across Wales to nearly £4.5 million revenue and capital.

Now, I'm not sure how many of you have engaged with your local food partnerships. I was very pleased to go and visit a food partnership in Carmarthen before Christmas—Cegin Hedyn. I don't know if anyone's been to the wonderful food outlet that they have in Carmarthen. But I think it's really important that we see these food partnerships, which bring everyone together. Public health, farmers, schools, local authorities, foodbanks, food pantries, all coming together to look at how we can tackle the root causes of food poverty in Wales, very much supported and steered by Food Sense Wales, which Katie Palmer has taken the lead on in Wales. So, I hope you will welcome that.

Can I ask a supplementary, because, obviously, this nearly £1 million for the food partnerships is an important sum of money? How much of these food partnerships are going to be tackling the lack of availability of fresh food in some communities? That's not a problem here in Cardiff, although it may be in some remoter communities. But there are certain places where—. Supermarkets have parked themselves on some out-of-town estates, eliminating all the food shops that were available on the high street, and people who don't have transport, their own transport, are really left bereft of a reasonable supply of fresh food. So, how much are these food partnerships going to look at the availability of healthy balanced food, to enable people to eat a balanced diet?

Well, that's a really key question, isn't it, and I can assure you that the food partnerships are looking at that. The one I visited in Carmarthenshire, Cegin Hedyn, is part of the food partnership, but it's part of the Bwyd Sir Gâr Food partnership in the Carmarthenshire area. And the chair of Bwyd Sir Gâr, Carwyn Graves, I met him, and in fact, Deri Reed, who's the founder of Cegin Hedyn, who has just won a community food champion award with the BBC food and farming scheme. They bring together, as I said, Public Health Wales, health boards, public sector bodies, third sector businesses, academic institutions. Where we went to eat, which was a lunch for which you could pay what you would want to, the food was all fresh and it all came from the Carmarthenshire community farm—they have their own farm—and it came from allotments. I know that there are examples of this happening across Wales, and they have had so much interest that Deri himself is now travelling around Wales helping, looking at ways in which they can support this, and particularly in terms of accessing fresh food that's grown locally. But I did announce more money when I visited Cegin Hedyn, and some of that money is going to FareShare. At the moment, that's the route to fresh food to go to food pantries and indeed to foodbanks as well, recently visiting Wrexham.

Many of the foodbanks have really opened up to so many different roles and functions, including being able to provide some access to FareShare food as well as advice services—Citizens Advice was there when I went to visit them. So, I think this funding that I've given is—. I mean, these local food share partnerships wouldn't have been able to carry on if I hadn't found that £960,000, and it's going to influence the community food strategy that's being developed. Very much also developing coming out of the sustainable food partnerships work, which you'll be very aware of, which was funded by Welsh Government. So, I think this is a real opportunity to see a longer term approach to tackling food poverty, and poverty as a whole.

I've mentioned the UK Government's four nations taskforce that I'm part of now, and food and energy are the key—. They've identified, through evidence, food and energy being key areas in terms of where we need to work to tackle poverty, child poverty. But, you know, you can invest, as you know, Jenny, in food in this way through the sustainable work.

Okay. This is a really important subject, but I think we're going to have to foreshorten this discussion and focus on the specifics of the budget at the time. So, was there anything further you, Julie Morgan, wanted to say about young people leaving care?

Yes. I think Jane Dodds has covered most of the issues that I was going to raise on the basic income pilot, which obviously, as the Cabinet Secretary said, was such a brave step forward for the Government. I just wanted to confirm that when young people come to the end of the pilot that you have set aside finance in order to support them in terms of their change of circumstances.

Yes. We have got a budget allocation this year of £1.5 million to enable support to be provided [correction: £1.5 million, which includes enabling support to be provided] for those young people. We've also worked very closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure there's a smooth transition, because many of those young people are in work, but those who need to and will need to access universal credit, we're working with DWP, Citizens Advice as well, and local authorities, because they're all involved with their leaving care teams as well, and it's bespoke advice for the pilot, and not just financial well-being, but general advice as well.

Thank you. That's fine.

Fine. I'll come back to you in a minute, then. Jane, can you move on to equality, inclusion and human rights, please?

Yes. I'll do it in English to do it more quickly.

Just how you're working with the Cabinet Secretary's colleagues to ensure that the equality action plans that you are responsible for are actually being actioned, and how the additional moneys that you have allocated in the budget will be distributed. So, just a quick outline on that.

Well, thank you very much, Jane. I recently had bilaterals with all of my Cabinet colleagues and Ministers about the delivery, the implementation, for example, of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' following the refresh, and also looking at the disability rights action plan, which is forthcoming. And I can assure you that not only my funding stream for the action plans is enabling us to take forward the implementation of those plans, the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', the 'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales', but also anticipating support for the disability rights action plan. But, of course, funding is coming from across the Welsh Government for all of those plans.

I'd be very happy to share the funding streams that we've identified from across Welsh Government for the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. A lot has come, for example, from the culture department, as well as education in terms of funding DARPL, the diversity and anti-racist professional learning work, which I witnessed this morning on my visit to St Paul's Church in Wales Primary School in Grangetown. So, it's not just my budget, it's across the Welsh Government, but this is about maintaining the delivery of existing actions out of those plans, so I'm confident that that will happen. But cross-Government is important. I hope that they will also be scrutinised in terms of the work that they're doing on these equality plans.

Okay, thank you. A breakdown of how they are being funded would be useful, but outside this meeting.

Okay.

Julie Morgan.

Thank you. I wonder whether you could update us on the use of the Gypsy and Traveller sites capital grant for 2025-26.

Yes. I think it is important, just to say, that we have already, for this financial year, approved 40 applications, at a value of £2,368,958. But some of those bids are multi-year bids. So, we have got, in terms of delivering on the funding that we have allocated for Gypsy, Traveller sites, we're there already, in terms of getting the bids. We need to have the bids to spend the money, and I think this has been one of the most difficult challenges, as you know, and I've outlined this in the written evidence as well. So, I think, there's £3.44 million in my written statement for this financial year, but also we're looking at small projects with a cap up to £50,000, and we are going to keep the budget at the same level, the capital budget of £3.44 million, for the next financial year. But as I said, some are multi-year bids, so we've committed £2.49 million in 2025-26 and £623,000 in 2026-27, and we'll look at the needs that come forward as a result of the response from local authorities.

Have all of the local authorities applied for something?

They haven't all applied. We've had those 40 bids so far, but we are working closely with all local authorities to ensure that they do bid. It varies across Wales, as you know. We've approved 40, we've had 43 submitted across 15 local authorities. So, our team is working hard on this. I think there is an issue. There are six local authorities who don't have local authority-run sites, and they're unlikely to apply for the site capital grant. We've got to work with them to get those local authority sites off the ground.

But also, we have agreed, and it was part of the 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan' refresh, that we would look at some of these private site issues that have been raised. They were raised at the cross-party group, which, of course, you chaired, that some Gypsy, Roma, Travellers would rather go down a private site route and get support with planning guidance, et cetera, and we've agreed to a pilot, to pilot that and support that. But also, we’ve just commissioned work on transit sites as well, and we’re paying for that. We asked local authorities to work together on this. Initially, some of them said that they would, but it didn’t progress. So, we are now—the whole of Wales—looking at transit sites, and funding that, to see where the most appropriate sites could be located. Did you want to mention something, Amelia?

Just to say that there are only two local authorities that have sites that haven’t applied for the grant, so we’re obviously working really closely with them to encourage them and work through what any barriers might be. But, yes, indeed, the transit site point is really important, because it’s important that local authorities, once we get the need, work together regionally to look at the most appropriate sitings for transit sites.

And is there money allocated for the transit sites, if this agreement on transit sites—?

Well, that would—. I mean, the—

Would that come out of this annual—?

It would come out of the grant—

It would, yes.

—the capital grant, that we've made available. But also local authorities themselves can contribute to this, and they often do in terms of actual site provision. But we need to identify those transit sites.

I think that would be wonderful, because we’ve been looking for transit sites for how many years? Since I’ve been in politics, I think.

Exactly.

Thank you very much.

Okay. Thank you. So, we obviously hope to see real progress on this amongst all 22 local authorities. Sioned Williams.

Just a couple of brief questions about the nation of sanctuary. I’m sure that you agree, Cabinet Secretary, that the support for the aspirations of a nation of sanctuary are more important than ever, and our support for asylum seekers and refugees, in light of some of the rhetoric that we’re seeing from some of the right-wing parties at the moment, in Wales and beyond. So, in terms of that welcome ticket—the scheme that was withdrawn last year, and we haven’t heard anything about that since April last year—you mentioned that you’re going to continue with the funding for that, to get this welcome ticket back. So, what are your plans in relation to that? What’s the timetable? And how will it operate? Will it be expanded to include, now, asylum seekers?

Diolch yn fawr. We are working at pace on the work for the welcome ticket. It’s phase 2, what we’re calling it. It’s to provide a smartcard to eligible applicants, which will provide six months' free bus travel on participating bus services in Wales. So, at the moment, we’re looking at how we can verify eligibility of potential applications—applicants—for asylum seekers, and I’ll be able to come back to you with an update on this. But it is very much working with the Cabinet Secretary for transport as well. But we want to make sure that we don’t have any discrimination, as we saw under phase 1, in terms of eligibility, and we need a financially sustainable scheme.

So, you don’t have a date at the moment for when the ticket will come back. In terms, then, of the training that you mention in your paper for local authorities regarding those with no status, no recourse to public funds, we know that this has caused problems in terms of children’s ability to receive free school meals. Some local authorities, even though they have discretion, have refused that to children. The Bevan Foundation and the National Youth Advocacy Service have mentioned that. So, what assessment have you made of the financial impact that the no recourse to public funds policy is having on Wales, namely that financial impact on local authorities? What discussions have you had with the UK Government about the impact of the policy—the financial impact of the policy?

Diolch yn fawr. Well, we’ve worked very hard to try and support those with no recourse to public funds, with our local authorities, liaising with the UK Government. And as far as free school meals are concerned, for example, I would expect every child in a primary school in Wales, regardless of their status, to receive a free school meal.

In comprehensive schools too.

And that’s something I’m working with the education Secretary on as well; free school meals comes under her remit. So, yes, I think it is important, and I mention in my written statement that the Welsh Refugee Council are delivering migrant rights and entitlement training to local authorities. It will help them look at the needs of those with no recourse to public funds, to make sure they're properly considered. They have it within their powers, and we are funding that. We are funding it for next year as well. And we're looking at this as a crucial point of our nation of sanctuary commitment.

So, what you're saying is that at the moment there are still local authorities who are not giving free school meals to every single child in primary school.

Well, no, I didn't say that. I said all primary school children in Wales should be—

Primary school children, I meant.

—entitled to free school meals. But I agree that we need to make sure that that's happening.

It's also relevant for comprehensive school-aged children as well, isn't it, of course?

Absolutely, and I hope that our training that we're funding will help, just to encourage—. And to look at any issues, obviously working with the local authorities, to make sure that this happens—. And if there's a modest need for funding, then we will look at it, in terms of trying to ease this, because we need to ensure that this is being delivered, as I say. It's a principle of the nation of sanctuary.

But no dialogue with the UK Government as yet on this.

Obviously, there is an issue about breaching rules, powers et cetera. I haven't raised this yet with the UK Government, and I don't know what's happening in England, for example. But I think, at the moment, because this is the whole picture of no recourse to public funds, not just access to free school meals, we just need to work with our local authorities. They have the powers to implement this, and we'll help in terms of easing the way to manage this.

Thank you. We'll need to move on, then. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Welsh Women's Aid says that the draft budget falls short of fully addressing the holistic and sustainable funding approach needed in violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. Will the Cabinet Secretary commit to implementing a long-term funding plan by the end of 2025 that ensures sustainable support for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and mitigates the impact of external cuts?

Thank you very much, Altaf, and I'm glad that Welsh Women's Aid did actually welcome the Welsh Government's increased draft budget and its commitment to tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence services, with an overall increase of £2.1 million in the funding for VAWDASV for 2025-26, so that sees us through to the end of this Senedd term. It's £1.2 million extra for revenue and £0.9 million for capital. As I said earlier on, we've increased all budget lines for third sector grants by 3 per cent across my portfolio. But I think what's important is we can build on many successful areas of work, such as the Sound campaign. That's really very much about supporting prevention and perpetrator policy activities. But this all comes as part of our blueprint, working with our colleagues in the criminal justice system, and we do have in that blueprint a sustainable funding whole-system approach work stream. That will enable us—. And Welsh Women's Aid sits on the partnership board, the VAWDASV partnership board. It will enable us to look at ways in which we can have that longer term sustainable funding.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Cabinet Secretary, figures for domestic violence released last week showed that of all the forces in England and Wales, only South Wales Police saw an increase in domestic violence. How are you ensuring that spending in this area is focused on outcomes rather than inputs?

Well, that is the whole purpose of the VAWDASV blueprint. And I think it goes back to prevention, the long-term preventative route. We’ve proposed an additional £150,000 to develop our preventative work, because it is about how we produce that change in outcomes, the fact that we are in a situation where we have those horrific statistics, which we hear about day in, day out, in terms of domestic violence and violence against women. So, this is work that is being undertaken.

I co-chair the partnership on VAWDASV with Emma Wools, the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales, and we have local government involved, the health service, specialist services—not just Welsh Women’s Aid, BAWSO. And we are working particularly on a theory of change model to ensure that we’ve got effective evaluation and monitoring so that we get those outcomes, Altaf, which are so important. Some of the areas of work that we’re investing in, for example, are independent domestic violence advisers, but also looking to work with the UK Government in terms of what they're funding, because we’re funding many areas, as our PCCs are, which are actually non-devolved as well.

Thank you very much. I just want to ask one other question. Can the Cabinet Secretary clarify how the additional £0.5 million will be distributed among the regions? Are there criteria or metrics for determining the allocations? How will the effectiveness of this additional funding be measured? And are there specific outcome benchmarks that the regions need to achieve?

Well, there’ll be a range of activity and proposals coming from across the regions, very much in line—. We have our work streams. I meet with the regional co-ordinators, but very much in line with our VAWDASV blueprint and strategy.

Thank you very much. Thanks, Chair.

Okay. We look forward to the detail. Mick Antoniw.

Just a few questions, Cabinet Secretary, on some of the aspects around criminal justice. Perhaps if I could just start in terms of resources for the devolution of youth justice and probation, because, obviously, this is an area that is being explored at the moment. I’ll ask about that in a minute, but obviously we’ll require additional resources to prepare for and implement it. I wonder, within the budget, what the resource provision is for that.

Thank you very much, Mick. The newly named, you’ll see, criminal justice delivery budget—£982,800 will be provided to support that work related to women’s and youth justice. And that will include some of the ongoing work that we’ve done, which you’re very aware of, in the One Wales service. The Visiting Mum service is one example of that, which we helped to fund. But it’s very much, again, a devolved/non-devolved. It’s commissioned with HM Prison and Probation Service and south Wales and Gwent police and crime commissioners. But also there’s funding for an independent domestic violence adviser for Welsh women—I’ve just mentioned that now—for those who are in custody; supporting the women’s justice agenda; supporting improved outcomes for women in the justice system; and also for youth justice, to help fund the Youth Justice Board to support collaboration and address issues in relation to the youth justice system.

We are evaluating the women’s justice and youth justice blueprints, and I hope that this will all help us to lead towards our goal of devolving youth justice, which is not only just an ambition, it’s a goal and, of course, it was in the UK Government manifesto that we would progress this.

Thank you for that. And of course, part of the goal is also in respect of probation. Perhaps you could just comment on whether there is any resource implication in respect of that. But just with regard to—. You mentioned, of course, the spending and the female and youth justice blueprints for 2025-26. I wonder if you could perhaps just specify how much of this amount is allocated to the One Wales scheme, and perhaps what other initiatives or programmes are funded. I suppose, for example, if the entire amount is not dedicated to the One Wales scheme, so perhaps a little bit more detail on that.

Thank you. The One Wales scheme of course will benefit from the £732,000 as part of that budget line. Could I just, Mick and committee members, say that, since April, just under 2,000 women—and this relates to youth justice as well—and young adults have been referred into the One Wales service? It has a hugely preventative role, of course, in terms of diverting those women and young people away from the criminal justice system, out of the criminal justice system, and I think what's really important is that the One Wales service really came through the women's justice blueprint as a result of an evaluation of the service—very positive findings about how women had been supported by this service. It's helped women, it's a 1:1 support that is provided to women, and makes really positive changes, but, still, we have a long way to go in terms of the women's justice system. But we now have, with the UK Government, a much closer working relationship.

Can I just also say that I'm really pleased to welcome the women's centre in Carmarthen, which won a 2024 Wales Safer Communities award, and that's supporting women in Dyfed-Powys? And we've got a new women's centre in Newport. These are all investment in prevention, moving women and supporting women 1:1, one-stop shops, and also there's a new adult centre in Merthyr that's been opened by Media Academy Cymru. But we're also supporting women in Eastwood Park and HMP Styal, with those really important Visiting Mums and supporting the familial relationships with children.

Yes, the focus is on youth justice and women's justice in terms of my budget, but, at a policy level, looking at obviously progressing with probation discussions as well.

Thank you for that. I was going to ask, really, about some of the examples in respect of the blueprints, but you've given those, and, clearly, there's been a significant development and positivity coming out of those programmes, which I suppose leads, really, to the whole point about the devolution of youth justice and indeed probation.

Can I perhaps then jump ahead a little bit, then, the last little bit about obviously a matter that I know you're obviously very active in, but just in terms of where we are in terms of, I suppose, engagement with, but potentially any resource aspects that relate to the budget with regard to the pilot on a residential women's centre and what progress is being made there, particularly with regard to the budget?

I'm totally in support of the residential women's centre; I've been working on this for a number of years. We now have a woman's justice board, which was set up by the Lord Chancellor, who has indicated the support for residential women's centres, and, indeed, we have a place—we have a location in the Swansea area—so we're making this a priority, and I emphasised this to Lord Timpson, the Minister, when we met on 18 September, and I'm now following this up very closely with the Ministry of Justice to get the residential women's centre open as soon as possible.

Of course, some of the devolved functions we already have in prisons are the health and education responsibilities. Those obviously have some budgeting implications. Are those things matters that are wholly absorbed by UK Government funding, or are there any budget implications in respect of that—particularly, say, with the women's residential centre and so on—that we ought to be aware of?

Well, health and education responsibilities, of course, for prisons are devolved and my Cabinet colleagues will be responsible for those areas of work, policy and funding, but this is going to be a pilot. It was agreed way back by a former justice Minister that we would pilot a women's residential centre in Wales. It will be the only Government-led pilot, a therapeutic environment for vulnerable women with complex needs from that particular area. It's a pilot for that area of Wales. When the commissioning needs are looked at, it will be for the UK Government and for us to look at the costs and the funding.

So, now you've got—

Thank you for that. I'd like to ask you a bit now about one other aspect that obviously comes within your ambit in this budget, and that, of course, is Welsh Government's funding for police and community support officers, very much as part of the community safety engagement. A lot of that funding emerged, basically, as a result of previous cuts that were being made at UK level with regard to police numbers and police funding. Now there's been a change of Government, and I see Welsh Government is reducing the amounts it is spending specifically on PCSOs. I was just wondering if you could update us as to what the situation is there and has UK Government stepped up to the mark now in terms of its funding for PCSOs, which, of course, are a non-devolved function, but a function that we took some responsibility for because of the lack of UK Government funding. Now that situation has changed, I wonder if you could update us there on whether there are, again, any financial aspects there that we should be aware of.

Well, it was the toughest decision last year not to be able to uplift the funding for PCSOs. We provided £15 million last year over and above what forces in England have access to. It is reserved, as you say, policing is reserved, and we had a very challenging financial position. We've allocated £16 million to fund PCSOs in the next financial year, but we're also going to have an evaluation of the work and the impact of PCSOs, the role of the PCSOs, which hasn't been undertaken. We have funded this large number of PCSOs over all these years. So, that's going to be undertaken during this financial year, but it is £16 million for 2025-26.

Okay. Thank you for that. You've answered the main points I wanted on those areas. I want to ask you a little bit about commissioners now, but unless someone else has any questions they wanted on those particular areas, I wanted to move on. Chair, is that—

No, that's okay. Go ahead.

If I can move on, then, just in terms of the issue with regard to commissioners and, of course, we know the pressures in respect of which the commissioners and their support bodies have been under. I think both the children's commissioner and the future generations commissioner have indicated the implications of pressures on funding for the full extent of their functions or the functions they want to carry out. I suppose, really, just what the situation is with regard to the commissioners, to what extent have they been able to, I suppose, manage their budgets and look about ensuring that their budgets are workable, that is, that the actions they carried out are covered by their budgets. But then one further question that I'll put in now, and that is: it seems to me that, in terms of the administration and the bureaucracy that actually support the commissioners, there does seem to be a tendency for them to be working within silos. I wonder to what extent there has been any exploration of the possibility of maximising the use of their funds by greater co-operation between commissioners in terms of some of the support work that backs them up.

Thank you very much, Mick. Well, it is a standard uplift of 3 per cent that the commissioners have received in this budget. There's also an additional £50,000 on a one-off basis for the children's commissioner for a specific priority. It's up to them, obviously, how they manage their budgets in line with their priorities. I'm very interested in that question you make about back-office functions, I would say. It's something we raised last year, and I do recall that the well-being of future generations commissioner agreed to take forward some work. So, can we bring this back to committee for an update, Chair? Because this is where we have all got to make sure that we are working in the best possible way in terms of maximising the impact of our budget, a challenging budget, but still a 3 per cent uplift, again, for the commissioners next year. But we'll follow that up in terms of the ways in which they work together.

Okay. I look forward to that further information in due course. I've no further questions, Chair.

Thank you. We did have one final area of discussion. Are you able to give us a further five minutes, Cabinet Secretary?

Yes.

Okay. Altaf Hussain.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Why has the review of the strategic integrated impact assessment been delayed? Can the Cabinet Secretary set out who else it is seeking to engage with over the next few months and why this engagement is necessary?

Thank you. Well, you will see that a strategic integrated impact assessment has been published with this draft budget, but the review is taking place. It's the first since this was introduced in 2015-16, and Welsh Treasury is leading on the review and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language. They're looking for advice, not just from the Women's Equality Network in Wales, but also wider advice, including across the world, to make sure that we get this right.

Thank you very much. And my last question is: what progress has been made in this draft budget to incorporate gender budgeting? Can the Cabinet Secretary clarify whether any learning from the gender budgeting pilots has fed into the development of this draft budget?

Thank you very much. We did have pilots. As a result of that, we've got an introduction to gender budgeting guidance document; that's actually an internal document for Welsh Government staff, but I would imagine that we could share that with you, Chair, because I think it would be useful to see how they should be—. It should be mainstreamed, gender budgeting. And the findings from the pilot schemes will be published this year.

Chair, could I just finally say that we've got an opportunity as well with the Employment Rights Bill that's now going through UK Government? Some of the provisions in that, for example, include equality action plans, setting out how to address gender pay gap issues and support employees going through the menopause. I think we have got to look at ways in which we can work with UK Government on some of these issues as well.

Thank you. Sioned, just briefly.

Just on that gender pilot, has any of the learning of the budget, has that influenced, has it fed into, the development of this draft budget?

Yes, I believe it has, because the gender budgeting guidance document was used across the Government by officials, and I'm sure our officials were steeped in it, definitely. But this must be across the whole Welsh Government. But can I make—? I undertake to share that guidance and also to make sure that the pilot schemes are published as soon as possible to see the impact. But I think you will see, through the strategic integrated impact assessment, how, across the board, the Government has been influenced by the gender budgeting pilots.

Thank you very much indeed for your time and that of your officials. We'll obviously send you a transcript of the proceedings, and you're obviously able to amend it if there's anything that's been incorrectly recorded.