Equality and Social Justice Committee

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We're continuing our inquiry into disability and employment. In the committee room, we've got Gerraint Jones-Griffiths, who is the Engage to Change lead ambassador for Learning Disability Wales and honorary associate of the Engage to Change research and evaluation team at the National Centre for Mental Health at Cardiff University—we very much welcome you—and also Angela Kenvyn, project manager at Learning Disability Wales. Joining us online is Dr Elisa Vigna, research fellow at the National Centre for Mental Health at Cardiff University. Welcome, all three of you, and thank you very much for the very useful paper that you have submitted. I will start the session off. I wondered if, Gerraint, you could summarise what the main barriers to work for disabled people are, given the core work you're doing.

That's a very broad topic, Chair. I'll cover more detail as we go along, but I think for me the biggest barrier is reasonable adjustments that employers need to give to people. I don't think employers take heed of the Equality Act to the full extent, and I think the Disability Confident scheme isn't being used to its full potential, either. Those are the three main barriers that I would say, Chair.

From the information we have, the disability employment gap is consistently higher in Wales than across the UK, particularly for people with a learning disability. Could you give us a brief insight as to why you think it might be higher in Wales than elsewhere?

Truthfully, I cannot answer that question, because, to my knowledge, the Welsh Government doesn't hold the figures in Wales. So, I can't answer your question, I'm afraid, Chair, because we haven't got the numbers in Wales, because the Welsh Government doesn't give out those numbers and statistics.

Thank you. Elisa, would you be able to—? I'll come to you first.

We didn't have figures for Wales, so we had to rely on English figures, and we know that employment for people with learning disabilities is really low. It's 4.8 per cent. This refers to adults aged 25 to 64 known to social services. So, we can only assume that in Wales we have the same figures.

In terms of barriers, if I can add on, I think that a big barrier is about aspirations. We should work on those and try to work with schools, careers advice, family, parents and employers to showcase what people with learning disabilities could do in work. Engage to Change brings a lot of examples of that, so we can dig into it later on during the session. But shaping those expectations can really make a difference, because it does shape the future of people with learning disabilities.

We have fantastic examples in Wales of special schools that do a lot in terms of career aspirations. For instance, we have been visiting, with Gerraint and Andrea recently, Ysgol y Deri in Penarth. They do a lot in terms of career advice; they offer work experience within the school and outside the school. We should really do more and possibly know more about what is happening in Wales in other schools and build on this. So, I think aspiration is another big one.

I think there are also misconceptions, particularly with people with learning disabilities and what they can and can't do. Again, this links into raising expectations and aspirations, and that's across the board; it's with young people themselves, it's with their parents, carers and it's with people who support them and surround them in schools, in colleges and in their lives generally, not realising that, with the right support, anybody who wants to work can work, it's just that right support is needed, and support that's individualised to that person.

I think it's also about employers. It's about accessible recruitment processes. Some employers' recruitment processes are very difficult to navigate for anybody, never mind for somebody who's got a learning disability. Even if you get through that initial application process, it's then about the rest of the recruitment process, such as formal interviews. We've got examples of people who've taken a different approach to a formal interview and they've given work trials, or people have given video evidence of them being able to do something, or they've put together a video that tells them all about themselves. That works much better to help somebody get a job. It's about matching the job to the person, rather than the other way round.

There are barriers across the board, really, that people face, especially people with learning disabilities, with what is called that 'hidden disability' that isn't really apparent. We've got really good examples of people who have been able to do a wide range of jobs with the correct individualised job coach support—anything from groundworks, working in a garden, to working in a hospital pharmacy and being a healthcare assistant. So, it is possible to get a job; it's about raising those expectations and about challenging as well, I think.

Elisa mentioned a school that's got some really good work experience opportunities, but then, there isn't work at the end of it, so it's into college or into some kind of day opportunities, and in some ways, you've given the young people a taste of something that could be possible, but then it doesn't carry through. So, I think a lot more work needs to be done in schools and with parents from a much younger age, as well, to get people to understand that, if you want to work and you can get the right support, then you can actually get a job.

Thank you. We will pick up on some of that as we go along. Can I call Sioned Williams now?

Thank you, Chair. I will be speaking in Welsh, so if you could put your headphones on, that would be great. As a committee we have heard evidence of a delay before the publication of the disability rights action plan, and also evidence that the incorporation of the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people will not happen in this Senedd. Could I have your view on the impact of these two issues?

Gerraint, do you want to go first?

In a broad answer, I completely agree with what Sioned was saying. The UNCRPD is there for a reason and it needs to be implemented to its full potential. This goes back to when I was highlighting the Equality Act. A lot of employers are on board with us—we have 800 employers that we've been working with throughout the whole of the Engage to Change project—but a handful are not adhering to the UNCRPD, and I think it's a real shame, because the employers are not realising the potential that people with learning disabilities can actually bring to their workforce, and to see employers actually being inclusive. Again, they don't seem to feel the real benefit and the real inclusivity of that network.

Thank you. Elisa, do you want to add anything to that?

I would like to add on our experience with Engage to Change, because I think that, often, employers are afraid of employing someone with learning disabilities, because they have simply never had this experience previously. Our research shows that employers who had experience of employing someone with learning disabilities were more likely and willing to take someone on board, because it doesn't have to be seen as a charitable act. There is a business case about the importance of having someone with a learning disability within the team, and I have a list of benefits. In terms of having that loyalty, a person with a learning disability, generally, is loyal to the business and works to the employer's specifications, because anyone can work with the right support, and we might go into more details later on about this. But there are, generally, also, studies that have been carried out in Kent and in other places in England on how, actually, there are benefits, economic benefits. So, I think that it's about recognising it and possibly showcasing what works.

And specifically, also, within our business at Cardiff University, we had the opportunity to have more interns and employees with learning disabilities, and especially in large businesses it has been proven to be really important to connect different teams. And also, the ability of job carving—. So, rather than fitting someone into a job, just carve a job around that person, a job that can serve different teams. For instance, we had some employees who were doing admin jobs and research tasks that could serve multiple teams, not just one. So, there is definitely scope for a business case for this. So, it's just about possibly highlighting this and sharing the knowledge. Yes, that's it.

Okay. Angela, is there anything you want to add, before I go back to Sioned?

May I just quickly mention—? Gerraint said that we worked with around 800 employers, and I think it's worth noting that, percentage wise, the majority of those were SMEs—small to medium-sized enterprises—and I think this was partly because it was easier for the employment advisers that were making those links with employers to get hold of the right person, and, very often, there would be local links. They tended to be more local businesses to where the young person lived, so they might already have connections with the young person and their family. It was found to be much harder to get into large organisations, in particular, like local councils, local authorities. The larger organisations that we worked with, on the whole, were through the supported internship programmes that we set up, and they tended to be, you know, Cardiff University and then health boards, such as Betsi Cadwaladr in the north, Cwm Taf and Aneurin Bevan in the south. I think it's been quite difficult to get into local authorities. We did work with one local authority, Rhondda Cynon Taf, where we set up a supported internship. But, I think, getting hold of the right person can be very difficult in a big organisation.

Thank you. And, of course, the Welsh Government's work on these issues has been carried out by the disability rights taskforce, hasn't it, over a period of three years at this point? So, could I ask you what has your engagement or involvement been with the disability rights taskforce and also the employment and income working group, if at all?

Who wants to go first? Gerraint.

Thank you, Chair. I'm so glad that you have mentioned this point. I have been working very closely with the disability working taskforce group, more specifically, the income and employment working sub-group. As part of this, there was a Disability Confident focus group, and as I mentioned in my introduction earlier, the main concern about this was that it is a tick-box exercise with regard to the Disability Confident scheme—for example, that employers were not taking this seriously, and that they were treating this as a box-ticking exercise.

The chair of the sub-group was Professor Debbie Foster, and going on from that, we were concerned to hear reports that reasonable adjustments were being turned down by employers, especially in the public sector. The Welsh Government does have a leadership role in working with public sector bodies to do better with regard to employment practices with people with learning disabilities.

In the group as well, it was discussed about people with learning disabilities being able to fully work from home. This would require a lot of support, but we know that this would isolate them even further. The Engage to Change project has clearly shown that being in employment increases people's social skills, confidence and friendship networks. Finally, from my point of view, it is also good for the general public to see people with learning disabilities in employment, and for the employer to be seen as being as inclusive as possible.

Thank you. Do you think that enough focus has been placed on people with a learning disability and employment support?

With regard to the disability taskforce group, or in general, Sioned?

Yes. With regard to the action plan, I suppose, that is going to be forthcoming.

Probably the only negative point from me is that, in the taskforce groups, there wasn't a large representation from people with learning disabilities. For example, there was a large presence from professionals, commissioners, who spoke on behalf of people with learning disabilities, which is fair enough, but to get a real sense of where the point is coming from people with learning disabilities, they need to speak for themselves, not have someone speak on their behalf. Unfortunately, I don't think that that was fully represented in the working taskforce group. However, issues such as the Disability Confident scheme arose in that working taskforce group, and I believe that it was fully aware, and Professor Foster did make that quite clear. I hope that that answered your question.

Yes, thank you. I will move on to one other question. Professor Debbie Foster told the committee that she found that the Welsh Government's work on this issue was carried out in silos, and that they weren't interconnected. How have you found the Welsh Government's work in this area? Do you agree with Professor Foster?

Angela wanted to come in, in the first instance.

Yes. With regard to the work that the Welsh Government is doing, we have been involved in working with the Welsh Government over the last four years quite closely—so, working with policy leads and the leads for employability and skills, in particular. But, as far as we are concerned, employment is everybody's business, and there are clear links to health and well-being, and there isn't enough joined-up work across departments, not just in Welsh Government, but everywhere else as well. So, when you talk about young people in their local areas, and the people that surround them and support them, there isn't enough joint work between teams such as children's services, adult services in education, mental health, employment, housing and so on and so forth.

There have been some really positive things that have come out of the work that we have done with the Welsh Government so far. We have got job coach support built into the Jobs Growth Wales+ programme. We have got the supported internships that we introduced to Wales through Engage to Change now being delivered across Wales, as part of the independent living skills curriculum in the further education colleges. We have got supported and supported shared apprenticeships with job coach support, and there is also specialist job coach support for people with complex learning disabilities, which is written into the employment and skills plan.

But there is still more work that we're doing with Welsh Government, because there are a lot of gaps there. And these programmes aren’t suitable for everybody, they’re not suitable for every young person, never mind somebody who’s got a learning disability and is over the age of 25. A supported internship is brilliant if that’s appropriate for you, and from a supported internship you may be able to then move along the pathway to a supported apprenticeship, but only if you can achieve a level 2 at the end of it.

With Jobs Growth Wales+, that’s a brilliant programme, but it stops at 19. A lot of the young people with learning disabilities and other disabilities, especially if they attend a specialist school, are in school until they're 19, and we’re finding that people don’t know about these programmes. We’ve been doing our best to promote them, so we commissioned a film last year that we’ve sent out extensively, and it’s on Careers Wales’s website, but what people are telling us—parents and carers as well as young people—is that they didn’t know about Jobs Growth Wales, or they’d heard of it, but they didn’t understand that they could apply for that programme.

So, I think a lot of work is needed to be done, again, with families, with schools, to see these different pathways to employment as an option. Because if you’re in mainstream school, staying on in school into what we used to call sixth form in my day, or going on to college, might not be the right pathway for you to get a job. I don’t see why it should be any different for somebody who’s disabled or who’s got a learning disability. Staying on until they’re 19 and going straight to college might not be the right pathway for them, but then they need to know about these other pathways.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. We'll go on to the Engage to Change project, and I'll come back if needed. So, Joel.

Sorry about that, I thought I had time for a swift sip then. [Laughter.]

I'm sure you do.

Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I hope you don’t mind, my questions are mainly aimed at you, Gerraint, if that’s okay, about the Engage to Change project. I just want to get a bit more information about that. What were the objectives of it, and what sort of lessons were learnt over the seven-year period of the programme?

Well, if you like, I can explain the initial objectives and my journey through Engage to Change, if you prefer, if that’s okay. So, Engage to Change started in 2016 and the initial objective was to work with 800 employers and 1,000 young people. If I’m honest, we smashed that project out of the park, that aim. We completely smashed that target. When I started Engage to Change back in 2016, I was in college. I wanted to do admin—don’t ask me why now, I haven’t got a clue, but back then it was something I always wanted to do—and I was about to enrol on a level 3 business and admin mainstream course. The chief exec now of Learning Disability Wales said, 'We’ve got a post with Engage to Change, a six-month placement, and if we think you’re tidy then we’ll keep you on.' So, I started that Monday morning from that Friday afternoon, and I continued with that role up until 2018, when the project manager at the time asked me to go for the lead ambassador role. I said, 'Are you asking me this because I talk a lot, or do you think I can actually do the job?' And she said, 'We think that you'd be a good ambassador for the project', so, I thought, 'Okay, fine, just to shut you up, I'll go for it, no questions asked.' I was successful, and I'm still doing that role to this day.

Then, in 2021, I was privileged to be working with Dr Elisa Vigna and Andrea Meek at the National Centre for Mental Health at Cardiff University. They decided to give me the title of honorary associate for Cardiff University. Bear in mind I have got no undergraduate degree, I haven't got a PhD, I've had absolutely no experience up until this point working in an university, and being asked to be on the evaluation team was a thrill. I was highly, highly honoured. So, I've kind of now been the bridge connector, really, between Learning Disability Wales, with Angela Kenvyn as project manager, and the bridge between academia and academics, working with Dr Vigna and Andrea Meek in Cardiff University. So, that was my journey through Engage to Change, and, like I said, we hit those targets. So, now, I would say, back late last year, we had to change the name to Influencing and Informing Engage to Change, because we've stopped taking referrals, so we had to show the public and academia how successful this project has been in Wales and for others to realise the impact it has made. Now we are releasing our figures and statistics, along with papers that Angela Kenvyn wrote, which you all, I'm sure, have had a copy of, showing the real detailed success it has been. So, that's why it's now Influencing and Informing, not just Engage to Change.

Perfect. Brilliant. And that's absolutely fascinating. I often find how weird or how life can move sometimes quite quickly as well, really, from when you're in one place, and then, all of a sudden, it's like a whirlwind, and, all of a sudden, you're somewhere else, which I've always found quite fascinating really. Angela, with the programme, then, was there anything that stood out there for you, then, really?

Seeing the difference it had made to so many young people, and not just to the young person, but to the wider family as well. We've got young people who are now living independently, young people who are financially independent, who've got a really increased social circle, are going out with work colleagues. We've got a young person who learnt to drive and drives himself to his socials. It's made such a massive difference. We've got people who are financially more independent than they were before. We've got so many stories, and employers it's made a massive difference to as well.

Talking about Gerraint, I've known Gerraint for a very long time. Gerraint, I think, will probably tell you himself that he was fortunate enough to go through a previous project that we all worked together on, which was a transition project, from when he was 14. Again, it emphasises the importance of that transition support, and working early on with somebody if you're going to progress them to employment. Elisa, was there anything that you wanted to say on that?

Yes, thanks. Obviously, Engage to Change was a one-stop shop for every young person that actually was not in education, employment or training at the time, aged 16 to 25, with a learning disability, autism or learning difficulties. More than 1,000 young people were supported with job coach support through paid placements, unpaid placements, but with the ultimate goal to paid employment. We also had, obviously, the supported internship programmes. We have 144 young people that have been on Project SEARCH starts, and 80 young people have been on alternative supported internships. So, obviously, as people were referred to the project, then the most suitable trajectory employment pathway was highlighted for that specific person.

One of the main findings was the importance of work experience. People that had previous work experience before getting on Engage to Change were then more likely to be employed through the project. That work experience could have been volunteering, work experience in school or paid employment. We don't have, really, details of the quality of the experience, but we know that they were engaged previously. That experience was really important then to be employed afterward, but none of them were able to actually be employed without the job coach support. So, it's that element of support—specific, needs led—that led them through the Engage to Change project and getting paid employment at the end of it. So, work experience is really important, but it needs to be supported by job coach support.

Obviously, we noticed within the project that the length of the experience as well was important. So, for people who were engaged in paid placement for the duration of six months, these placements were paid by Engage to Change. And then, as the employer committed to employing the young person, the wages were tapered. That was a positive pathway. So, I would encourage wage incentives, because that is a way for the young person to experience that very important element of being paid for the job that people do.

And the other very successful programme was the supported internship, and that is possibly because of the level of engagement. They are going on three rotations—they experience three different internship programmes within the year they are engaged. It is quite powerful then in developing those employment skills that then will bring them on to success in their employment.

Perfect, brilliant. Well, with that in mind, then, because you mentioned there work-experience placements and the need to have support via specialist job coaching, has there been much discussion with the Welsh Government about that? Have they sounded things out? Are they receptive to it? Angela.

Yes, we have talked to the Welsh Government about it, about the real importance of work experience, and work experience on two different fronts, really. So, we think, around about age 14, it would be good to have work experience for people with learning disabilities, for them to experience the workplace and to find out what it means to go to work—the general things about getting ready for work, being there on time, travelling, and that type of thing. We know that that takes place in the classroom, but, for people with learning disabilities, it is very often difficult for them to transfer that learning from the classroom into an actual workplace itself. So, it is much more beneficial for them to visit a workplace, to find out what it actually means to go to work and what it is like. And then, of course, when it comes to making more of a choice about what you might like to do in the future, maybe when they are a little bit older, having work experience where they are actually on placement in different sectors—so, they might have some work experience or work visits into offices, office work—. Gerraint mentioned he thought that was what he wanted to do and then he found it wasn't really for him. We find some young people love animals and they wanted to work with animals, and then they are taken on a placement to work with animals and it is like, 'Oh no, this really isn't for me. It's not what I want to do.' So, you can have an idea fixed in your head—I think any one of us can, and any young person can—about what it might be like to work in a particular field, but, for a person with learning disabilities, unless they actually get there and experience it, even if it is just for a day or for a few hours to find out exactly what it is like, then it can be even harder to make those decisions.

So, we have talked to the Welsh Government about work experience, and I think, with schools, some schools have been doing it really well, like Elisa mentioned earlier, but then it doesn't lead anywhere. Some schools have got cafes and things that they have set up within the school environment to give that work experience, but, again, it doesn't lead anywhere when the young person leaves school. It is not like having work experience with specialist job coach support in real jobs out in the community and in businesses. So, it is something that we've talked about but, of course, as far as I'm aware, it's something that Careers Wales don't have to do, and schools are really stretched with resources. You can imagine that if they've got a class of even, say, eight or 10 people with learning disabilities that all want to go out on work placements, to take those young people out, to have somebody to support each one of those young people in a workplace, it's nearly impossible for the schools to do, which is why I think so many of them give opportunities on the school site. But, again, if it doesn't lead anywhere, I don't really know what the value of it is. In some ways, you feel as if you're setting somebody up to fail if you're giving them amazing opportunities and teaching them about the world of work, and then they're not actually going to get a job—they're going to go to college. If they go to college, they might end up on a supported internship and they might get a job out of that if that's suitable for them, but very often when they leave college, they just fall off a cliff, especially if they're that little bit older. When they get to 25 and all these young people's programmes are no longer available, there's nothing there.

With that in mind, then, with the targeted employability support scheme, the TESS, where does that come in and you come in, if that makes sense? Where does that differ from what you're proposing, if that makes sense?

With the Engage to Change project, we delivered supported employment. So, we offered a wide variety, and Elisa mentioned some of it. We did work experience, we did paid placement, unpaid placements. For some people, volunteering placements were a good way on their pathway for them to learn about a job, leading then to paid employment. That support was provided by specialist job coaches, employed by supported employment agencies, who'd been trained and were working to national occupational standards. And that's something that we've very much been promoting with the Welsh Government. We do a lot of work with ColegauCymru. So, we've been promoting that with them as well, because we know that, with supported internships, some of the colleges use supported employment agencies. Some of them employ their staff to give that job coach support, and we're saying that there needs to be a quality standard. It needs to be to a professional standard and a nationally agreed one. You've got the national occupational standards for supported employment, and there is accredited training available for anybody who's providing job coach support. So, that quality assurance is needed, and it's about equity as well, because you don't want young people in one area getting a better service than young people living in another area. And what we're finding with trying to look at what is available out there since Engage to Change finished is that there are areas where there's nothing. You've got the Welsh Government programmes, but, if they're not suitable, there isn't anything else, and then you've got another area like north Wales, where they've got this new programme, which is really good, for people with learning disabilities.

So, it's varying so much at the moment, and we're really keen that everybody pulls together and starts working together to make sure that there aren't gaps across Wales and there is job coach support available for young people that couldn't get a job—well, not just young people, anybody with a learning disability who couldn't get a job without it. So, it's about regional partnerships, Welsh Government, local authorities, health boards, everybody working together to try and make that happen. We recently published a national job coaching strategy—I think you may have seen that paper—which is calling for exactly that. It makes a lot of recommendations, learning from the Engage to Change project.

Could I intervene, just to ask why did you stop accepting referrals? Is that because the pilot had already demonstrated its success, or because you ran out of money? Because, Gerraint, you mentioned that you didn't any longer take referrals. So, what was the driver for that?

It was the project funding. So, Engage to Change was funded by the National Lottery Community Fund and Welsh Government—it was dormant account funding that funded the project. So, we were lucky enough to get a couple of extensions, because the project was doing well, but also, when we had that period of COVID, we carried on working, we just had to work in a different way, but we carried on working with young people and supporting employers, but in a different way. And of course, once that was all over and everything was open again, we got back to our normal way of working, but we were able to get several extensions to the initial funding period for the project.

So, the funding to support young people finished at the end of May last year, but, because we'd been doing so much work with Welsh Government, and with Members of the Senedd, around what we thought needed to happen, based on learning from Engage to Change, we were able to get some additional funding for us to carry on working on what we've called our legacy, with the hope that, by now, job coach support would be built into everything, and we're not quite there yet. And of course, this year, we've been hit with—. There have been delays because of changes in Government, and various other things that are going on, but we're still having those conversations. I had a meeting just the other day with the Welsh Government head of employability policy, and we're having a visit from Minister Jack Sargeant on Wednesday, aren't we? Yes. So, we're really pushing, because we haven't got much longer, but our 'much longer' is always a bit of 'watch this space'.

Thank you. Back to you, Joel. Sorry to interrupt.

No, it's okay. That was my final question, Chair.

Okay. Elisa would like to come in, Joel.

Oh, sorry.

I think that it's worth noting that the employment rate for the Engage to Change project was 41 per cent; that compared to the 4.8 per cent, despite that we had been through COVID. The pandemic just brought many challenges, because people were losing jobs, and—. So, without going into details, we know what works, we know that supported employment, delivered at the quality framework standard then, really works. And it works because it prevents people from staying economically inactive, it helps in that transition to employment, and also prevents people from becoming unemployed. I'm quite concerned about the people that actually got employed through the support of Engage to Change, and now, for whatever reason, they might need to transition to another job, and they don't have that support to allow them to transition to some other job, as well as that we know that people with disabilities generally are excluded from career progression, and I assume that for people with learning disabilities it's the same. So, that job coach support would be really important to help them progress in their career.

The input from the job coach is vital, because the training happens in the workplace. Even little adjustments, half a day of job coaching, can really make a difference. So, I think that is also about looking at the bigger picture and thinking about supported employment as useful for any type of disabilities, because it's been used for sensory impairment, but also for the bigger population, such as ex-offenders, people recovering from drug and alcohol misuse. So, it's about possibly investing in a system that can actually work. You know, more groups could benefit from this scheme.

Okay. Joel, I'll come back to you in a sec, but Gerraint wanted to say something, and Jane Dodds has a question as well.

Diolch. Thank you, Chair. I just want to really back what Elisa and Angela were saying. Because, with the project, even though COVID had a massive impact on all of us, we never stopped working. There wasn't one day where we thought, 'No, we can't be doing deliveries today', we just kept on working. Before COVID and during, I used to line-manage five project ambassadors for Engage to Change. So, before we had the full restrictions on lockdown through COVID, they used to attend events and promote the project. So, initially, they were the face of Engage to Change, if you like. Then, when COVID hit, unfortunately we didn't have work for them, because, of course, they couldn't go anywhere, so, unfortunately, we had to make them redundant. But then, once restrictions fully eased, Angela and I got together and thought, although we can't have project ambassadors, surely to goodness there can be an opportunity for the young people to actually show what they have achieved. So, we've come up with a name for these young people, and they are now our 'project champions'. So, we have champions across the whole of Wales. We've delivered a number of events this year. We had 'Knowing me, knowing you' listening events, and they spoke there, and their parents spoke—and I can assure you there wasn't one dry eye in the room, just to hear the impact it's made from a parent's perspective. And for me, really, the project has helped me to develop my working life, and I don't think I would be here where I am today if it wasn't for Engage to Change.

A bit of background to give you a rough idea from where I've come: I was non-verbal until I was five, but I've made up for it since, I can assure you. I was diagnosed autistic when I was 11. I was very fortunate to have been involved in a transition project, which was called Real Opportunities; Elisa was involved in the research for that, along with Andrea. Angela was project manager for Real Opportunities, so that's why Angela mentioned she's known me for all those years. And quite recently, Elisa, Andrea and I co-delivered a workshop in Barcelona this year, back in June, and that was at an international conference, a European international conference, because there were speakers there from Mississippi, United States, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. From that conference, I have been invited to the BASE UK national conference. So, for those of you who have not come across BASE before, they are the British Association for Supported Employment, and I've been asked to be on their main stage, on a Q&A expert panel, in Manchester, in November this year.

So, it's not just looking at supported employment, it's completely taking everything back to what we thought supported employment was. And accidentally mixing it with employment support, which—. As Angela clearly mentioned, you cannot be doing this; you've got to keep supported employment as a really one-to-one, specialised support. And likewise, if you have employment support, that's just—. I can't say, 'That's just', but that is like your curriculum vitae, helping you with your job interview, whereas employment support is an extra delivery service, which the young person may need. Everyone has a different support need—I'm not suggesting that—but when you have extra initial support—. I've always said, 'With the right support, anything is achievable.' I've always had the motto that is 'A is not for autism, A is for achievement', and if public sector bodies, Welsh Government, and all employers could see this, there would be a massively better society for all to enjoy.

Very good. So, Jane Dodds wanted to come in and ask a question, and then I'll come back to you, Joel.

Well, I was just going to start my questioning—sorry, Chair—so I'll wait for Joel to finish.

Okay.

I've finished my questions.

Okay. Fine. All right. Excellent. We'll move on, then, to Jane Dodds.

Thank you. I'm going to ask questions in Welsh. So, the first question: the committee has heard that employers' attitudes to disability, particularly learning disability, is a key barrier. In your view, what actions need to be taken to improve this? Elisa first of all. I can see—.

Elisa, would you like to go first? I can see your hand's up. Thank you.

So, at Engage to Change, we produce a variety of products, so not just reports and articles but also videos, and I think that the success of the evaluation was actually due to the involvement of people from the project presenting the research results to everyone. So, if you can have a look at the Engage to Change website, you will see that, actually, reports were given in easy read. So, as a partnership, I think we would like to see employers using those videos to familiarise with what actually it does mean to have a person with a learning disability working in a business, because we often, within the project, saw the stigma attached to what people with a learning disability can do. But Engage to Change proved it wrong: people were engaging in a variety of jobs, such as sales and retail, admin, catering and hospitality, cleaning, but also a wide variety of other roles such as care assistants, estate assistants, technicians, lab assistants, pharmacy assistants. So, a wide variety.

So, we have to kind of explain to employers that, actually, this is the case, and that people with learning disabilities can work for a certain number of hours. So, we have on average 17 hours a week, and I think that it's about knowing that there is no risk in terms of—. They don't pose a risk to the business, so it's not that—. With the support of a job coach, anything can be explained, because what happens in supported employment is that a job coach actually learns the job in the workplace and then finds a way, the most appropriate way, to teach the job to the person in the workplace. So, supported employment is not just support to the individual, it's also support to the employer. So, I think that this is not so clear, and I think that, by clarifying this aspect, then we could break down barriers. I think if my colleagues want to add anything to it—. Thanks.

Angela.

Yes. Linking it back again to work experience, in the report that we wrote on a national job coaching strategy, one of the things that we suggested was maybe Welsh Government having some kind of employer youth-friendly scheme, because we know that all young people find it extremely difficult to get work experience; it's not like it was years ago when you were a teenager and you were in school, you knew you were going to get a week every year—that doesn't happen anymore, and I think, again, it's going back to those links with employers and trying to improve those links.

So, one of the things that we'd mentioned in there was having a youth-friendly employer scheme. The other thing that I've been talking to Welsh Government about is Business Wales and the Business Wales website. There is information on there about being a more accessible recruiter and more inclusive employment, but it needs to be more prominent, and links could be put on there to some of the employer videos that we've produced, for example, so that employers can see what it means, they can get a better understanding of job coach support and of what it means to employ somebody with a learning disability and the benefits that it brings, and I think it goes back to a similar thing that I mentioned earlier: if you can see somebody else doing it, then you can understand what is possible for you yourself, and I think that applies to employers equally as it does to young people and parents. So, if employers see that other employers are doing it and this is what is possible, and these are the benefits that it brings, I think that would be a really good thing to do.

Back to you, Jane.

Thank you. I don't know if Gerraint would like to say something now. No. Sorry, no. So, I wanted to talk about the schemes in the UK and also here in Wales. What do you think of the UK and Welsh Government schemes? You've mentioned Business Wales and the scheme that they have, and then there is a UK Government scheme as well. What do you think of the programmes, and how could things be improved?

Who's going first? Gerraint.

Just a quick note. One of the schemes that really comes to mind is Working Wales and the Access to Work grant scheme, which Angela will speak about more in detail. I attended an event last Thursday in Merthyr college, and it was more of a networking event, really, hosted by the Department for Work and Pensions, and I spoke to a number of colleagues from Working Wales, and they were basically saying that there was a huge backlog of grant applications for Access to Work, because, although the programme has been going since 1994, before that event, it hadn't been well publicised if I'm totally honest. And due to the publicity now of Access to Work, and through working with us and Careers Wales, there is a huge backlog now with Access to Work, and Working Wales is a really good grant funded programme as well. Angela.

I think, with the Access to Work programme—. So, with Engage to Change, when it started, there was a negotiation to be able to draw down Access to Work for the job coach support for the supported internships, and that's continued, and that is in Wales now, across Wales. I think there have been some difficulties with very lengthy delays in payments being made—months of delays—and that has really impacted on the supported employment agencies delivering the job coach support. But, through working with the Welsh Government, and them connecting with DWP, that has improved for the supported internships, because we've now got a named person in Wales that the supported employment agencies can go through to try and speed those up and to resolve any issues with it.

The waiting lists, I understand, can be up to 26 weeks for general Access to Work applications for in-work support and, of course, that has a massive impact, because people may not then go ahead and get that job, because that support isn't already in place, or you'll get supported employment agencies that will do that work anyway, because they really want that person to have that job, and then they've got to wait a long time to get a decision made and to claim that money back. I attend the Wales regional stakeholder group for Access to Work, which is also attended by the DWP. My understanding is they're doing their best to bring this down, and they've taken on a load of new staff, but those staff are currently going through training, and also, given the fact that Access to Work is becoming more widely known about now, they're getting an increase in applications, which is brilliant—that's what we want to see.

But it doesn't cover everything. So, for example, we found there are gaps. We talk about our supported internships. Traditionally, we've done a lot of work through Engage to Change, when we were funding it. You could do work through the summer holidays to do all that pre-preparation work—all of the courses that need to be undertaken, mandatory training, by a health board, for example, before you could actually start on the programme. That could happen through the summer holidays with job coach support, because we could fund that. The problem is Access to Work doesn't fund anything like that, so that's having that kind of impact on the programme, that they're almost playing catch-up. When they start in September, they've got to do all of that work really quickly that would have happened through the summer holidays. And it's the same at the other end. So, if the young person comes out of the supported internship and there isn't a job there for them, they then need support to find a job. Some young people might go on to a supported apprenticeship, but, like I said, you've got to achieve a level 2 at the end of it. So, that might not be suitable for them. After the age of 19, they can't go for Jobs Growth Wales+, so there is no specialist job coach support available for them then at the end of that programme.

Thank you. I don’t know if Elisa wants to say something on this, but I’ll go on to the final question, if that’s okay. Perhaps I know the answer to this, I’m not sure, but what does the Welsh Government need to do to close the disability employment gap? One thing, please—one thing that the Welsh Government needs to do. Who would like to go first?

Elisa, do you want to go first, just because you're online?

I don't know if she heard you. Elisa?

Yes. I think that the Welsh Government should definitely consider delivering a job coaching strategy for Wales, because this is what works. And I think that universal support, hopefully, depending how they develop it, will hopefully sustain this initiative. So, this is the only way to support people with learning disabilities in each stage of their employment journey.

And I think that there is evidence about cost savings that have been carried on. We don’t have anything for Wales, unfortunately, but there have been studies in Gloucestershire, in Kent, on how much, actually, we can save by investing in supported employment, in terms of local authority savings, as well as savings for taxpayers, and, actually, from all the soft outcomes, in terms of saving on the mental health bill, as well as the social care bill, because, obviously, employment delivers so many soft outcomes that, obviously, as Angela and Gerraint have already touched upon, can really make a difference and provide savings for the Government in other areas.

And I think that I would like the Government also to consider looking at the north Wales learning disability employment programme, which is led and funded by the regional integration fund. So, this is a really interesting approach, because it involves different local authorities and, obviously, is funded by the health and social care fund. So, I would like to see supported employment as a health and care-type of—. You know, how you can find it and how you can make it effective, to kind of make a difference and bridge that employment gap.

Okay. Did either of you want to add anything?

Yes, the only thing to add, really, is we can’t measure it if we don’t have the right data. And, of course, as we’ve already mentioned several times, the Welsh Government doesn’t collect data on people with learning disabilities.

Okay, hold that one, because we're coming on to that shortly.

Okay.

Anything else?

No.

Okay. Okay, Jane, are you—? I'll pass on to Julie Morgan.

Thanks very much and prynhawn da. We’ve been told in previous sessions that it’s what happens in the education system that is the beginning of creating the disability employment gap, and I think some of that has been covered today. So, what do you think? Do you think the inequalities in the education system are having a real impact on employment outcomes?

I think, definitely, yes. We’ve got examples where you’ve got siblings, with one who’s in a mainstream school and one who might be having special support in school, and it’s completely different what happens to them in school with regard to employment. For the person with a learning disability or autism, they might not even be asked about employment in the future, whereas the person without a disability will always be asked about it and have support to think about it. And it happens from a very early age. Most children get asked by their parents, by family members, by anybody, 'Oh, what do you want to do when you're grown up?', even when they’re five, six, seven, eight, and that doesn’t tend to happen for children and young people with learning disabilities and autism. It's not even a consideration. People don't think it's possible. So, I think it goes all the way back to early education, and from there onwards. It's a discussion that needs to be had, and talked to—

Very early on.

Very early on, yes, and not just with the children themselves but with their parents and families, and with other people that surround them. We've talked about work in schools, and we know one school that does very good work experience, and the member of staff that leads on that went and talked to one of the staff who works with the younger children about starting to work on employment with them, and I think the attitude was a little bit, 'Well, we don't need to do that because they're not going to get a job.' So, you know, work is needed with everybody, I think, right through education, even through to social services, if children and young people have got social workers involved with them, and health professionals as well, because we still find that—. I mean, north Wales is a brilliant example because it's led by health and social care. The social work team have had training on supported employment, so they're very well aware of that as an option for the people that they're supporting, whereas I think other teams of social workers might not be. We've still got our Engage to Change enquiry e-mail box open, and I regularly get e-mails from parents, from siblings, from professionals working in health and social care, in Careers Wales and so on: 'I've got this young person', a few details, and, 'What is there in the area?' So, I think, yes, a huge amount needs doing, and there really is a massive difference there between what people with learning disabilities get and what people who haven't got those disabilities get in school.

Julie, Gerraint wanted to come in, I think.

Gerraint, yes.

Thank you, Julie. I just want to add to what Angela was saying, really, that, yes, with regard to the education system, it is still a massive influence and gap. Transition is still a huge, huge barrier for young people. I'm sure Elisa will tell you that we have done numerous workshops and presentations to young people, and, even in the room, we asked them, 'What would you like to do when you're older?' and every time, they always say, 'I don't know. We've never been asked,' and that's even now. So, like Angela was saying, yes, you have got to work from a very, very early age, but even when they reach between 19 and 25, they still don't know what they want to do, because they've never been asked, and I think these are questions where we need to break down these barriers, because they're—. Even if they're in mainstream school, in a special needs school, they still don't know what they want to do, and whether that's a breakdown within the education system, or local authorities, or the public sector boards or commissioners, this needs to be fixed. Angela will tell you—between Real Opportunities and now we are still bashing on about this problem. I think people want to take on board, but it's a matter of frustration that, yes, you can see the enthusiasm, but they still don't get it right, and we need to understand why they are fixating in such a way that they just don't get it.

Yes, Angela.

And I think the other thing that does tend to happen sometimes when young people get a bit older, or even adults, and they've got learning disabilities or autism is, that very often, volunteering is seen as good enough, so, 'You can go and work in a charity shop, but you can't do a paid job, because you're not capable to, but you can go and work in a charity shop for a few hours a week.' Well, if you can work in a charity shop for a few hours a week unpaid, then you can do a paid job, and you've already demonstrated that. So, I mean, volunteering can be a good way of people increasing their skills, not just their work skills but social interaction and increasing their confidence, and helping to relieve anxieties their family members might have about them working, but it shouldn't be something that somebody does never-ending. We've had examples of people that have been in never-ending volunteering places for over two years, and they're jobs where other people get paid. So, if other people are getting paid to do that, and you've proved that you can do it through volunteering, then you should be paid for it too. I think sometimes there are instances where family members may be concerned about loss of benefits, but better-off-in-work benefit calculations can be done, so that they will understand better the impact or non-impact on benefits. But, of course, it needs specialist help to be able to do this, and this is the type of work that the supported employment agencies that we've worked with would do with all of the young people that we work with, right from the beginning, so that the young person and their family were very clear about what going to work would mean and if it would have a positive or negative impact on any benefits that they might be getting.

The next question I was going to ask was actually about voluntary placements. We did have feedback from the consultation that they were difficult to get and in a very narrow range—catering, maybe, or hospitality—and not wide enough. Is this your experience?

We tried not to do too much volunteering in the project, because it was more about having work experience placements or paid placements leading into a paid job. I know that certainly some of the volunteering would be in charity shops, for example. In charity shops, the staff don't tend to be paid, do they, so it would be a stepping stone. I don't know if there were really any difficulties getting it, but I think Elisa could probably tell you more about that from the data that she collected.

Elisa.

Yes. For Engage to Change, we consider volunteering as a learning opportunity, and I think that, for us, the problem is different, because we had people on Engage to Change being paid for their jobs, so in paid employment for 16 hours plus, and then losing their jobs because of COVID or because it was a term-time contract, and then going into volunteering, because there was no support to get a new job. So, I think that, for us, volunteering is never an employment outcome. And we didn't find, really, a problem. What we found, actually, is that people in paid employment, many of the people who we are still in contact with and our ambassadors from the project, they work and they also volunteer on the weekends, because they are so confident now. Because 100 per cent of the people we interviewed said that their confidence increased because of the support provided by Engage to Change and because of their employment experience. So, they are so confident that now they want to give back to the community, they are involved. So, they also volunteer on top of the employment. So, I think that, for us, for this population, it's a bit different. So, I think we need to be careful to not have people with a learning disability volunteering when they are perfectly capable of working in paid employment.

Thank you, Julie. I just want to echo what Angela and Elisa have mentioned, really. For me, my main concern is people volunteering long term in jobs that other people are getting paid to do, which Angela has already highlighted. Also it's sometimes seen as good enough that a person with a learning disability has a volunteering placement, when the truth is that, if they are able to volunteer, they are also able to do paid work. A voluntary placement is a really good place to start for a person with a learning disability on their journey to paid employment, which you know, but then to learn work skills, social skills and gain confidence through volunteering. However, it should never be a long-term effect. If they do it for a certain number of months, like Angela has highlighted, and Elisa, once they gain that confidence, there is absolutely no reason why they cannot get a paid job after they've done their voluntary placement.

Thank you. And my final question is about apprenticeships, which we also touched on earlier on. We've heard, as a committee, that there's not enough information around for employers to know what help there is for them in terms of apprenticeships and the support that's available. So, what do you think needs to be done to encourage the uptake of apprenticeships by disabled people?

Well, my understanding is that, overall, the number of disabled people taking on an apprenticeship has steadily risen. It's not as low as it was, although it could do a lot better. And of course we did a lot of work with the Welsh Government's head of apprenticeships and his team a couple of years ago and, as a result, there were supported and supported shared apprenticeships with job coach support, and also around making the assessment process more accessible for those young people as well and building in a six-month period at the beginning to upskill those people and prepare them for the apprenticeship. So, that's been working really well. But Elisa has almost completed a report on apprenticeships, so maybe she might like to answer the rest of that question.

Elisa.

Yes. We just wrote this report, but it's not comprehensive as to the all-Wales situation in terms of apprenticeships, because it's not really an independent evaluation, but we've been working with ELITE Supported Employment to get some data. I think it’s really important to underline that a supported apprenticeship is not a pathway for everyone. It’s really important that suitability is—. We understand that this is the right pathway for some of the people with learning disabilities that we support. Often, a supported apprenticeship is undertaken after people have already done a supported internship. So, it’s a step up. Or some young people were on Engage to Change and then transitioned to a supported apprenticeship. But it’s important to underline that some young people with a learning disability might not be able to work 16 hours plus, which is a requirement for a supported apprenticeship. They might need to build their hours up as they go along. As well as having the education element at the beginning, it needs to be clear to the young person going into an apprenticeship, because we don’t want to set people up to fail. Because, usually, learning something in the workplace is more effective. Having a job coach attached to a supported apprenticeship is not the only reasonable adjustment that should be considered, so more work, I think, needs to be done on it. And of course we need more employers. So, there needs to be a way to advertise supported apprenticeship and the value of it, but I’m not sure what the strategies are, maybe some case studies. I don’t know if my colleagues have got ideas.

It goes back to, like you were saying, promoting it more and making that information available and maybe having some videos that employers can have a look at of it working in action and how successful if it can be if there’s the right match between the apprenticeship and the employer.

Right, I think that's all from me. Thank you.

Fine, thank you very much. Back to Mick Antoniw.

Yes. I'll be very quick. You did start talking about the issue of data, particularly within the context of monitoring, and I suppose it leads also to enforcement in some ways, but predominantly monitoring. If you don’t understand what’s happening, if you don’t have the data, it’s very difficult to know how policies can develop and be adjusted and so on. Of course, we’ve heard quite a few comments in the past about the lack of disaggregated data. How do you cope with the current situation, with fairly fragmented data from different sources, and I suppose a lack of a strategic presentation, analysis, of ongoing monitoring of the situation on the ground? And what should be done about it?

I think, with the Engage to Change project itself, because of the nature of the funding and everything else, we were able to collect a lot of data, because data was collected right at the beginning. We had a system where the job coaches or employment advisers had iPads, they fed in, and that data went live through to NCMH at Cardiff University. So, it wouldn’t just be if the young person had a learning disability, it would be any other conditions that affected their daily life and their ability to learn and to hold information. So, we were able to look at our data and see how many people had a learning disability, how many had autism, how many had both, how many had other co-existing conditions, and then what the outcomes were for those people. But I think, Elisa, you’re probably the best person to answer a data question.

I think that the way that we collected data within Engage to Change was really powerful, because it was real-time data collection. The data also served to change what didn't work quite well within the project. Also, we always involved the voice of people with learning disabilities. So, every four months, we had a project forum, with All Wales People First. So, there was a constant review from people with lived experience of learning disability, both on the way that the project operated and what didn't work, so they were able to raise concerns about the project, as well as regarding the evaluation. That's a really nice way to collect data—have it in real time and involving people with lived experience. Obviously, for us it's been a barrier not having data from Wales, so it's really difficult to make comparisons. But, definitely, this data collection system is a positive way to collect data.

What would you like to see happening with data in the future? Do you think there is a more specific role for Welsh Government, or perhaps even in conjunction with the universities, or whatever, in this area?

Absolutely. Absolutely this is something that would be really welcome, to use our expertise to inform, and to collect data for all Wales, yes, definitely, and, I would say, not just on employment, but all the other elements of—.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Okay. I think Gerraint wanted to comment as well.

Just a quick comment, really, from me. I was an observer on the evaluation forum that Elisa was talking about. What the young people told us on that evaluation forum was that the presentations that we had back then weren't very adequate when it came to accessibility. So, they came back to us and said, 'Can you make the presentations more accessible, so that we can understand them?' So, we put the presentations into plain English, and into easy-read format as well, and since, from that sort of initial stage, they were a great support to us.

One of the things that came from the evaluation forum was that there were too many males and not enough females on the project, so we held a few events—I don't like to use the words 'aimed at' women, but they were trying to encourage female participants to sign up. Likewise, there was, percentage wise, a lot of individuals who were autistic coming through the project, and not many with learning disabilities coming through the project. So, again, we held several events to not make it so one sided. And I think, like Elisa was saying, not only was the data collection helpful from the job coaches who were having their tablets and iPads and so on and so forth, but also having that contribution from the evaluation forum helped us a great deal to develop our project further down the road.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Okay. Elisa, I think we lost you at one point, so I just wanted to ask you what work have you done with the disability disparity evidence unit, really, to try and address this data gap.

So, basically, as Gerraint was saying, this real-time data collection really helped to support the work and address and think out of the box about how some issues could be addressed. One of the issues, for instance, was people being on a waiting list. People were referred to the project, and then, because, obviously, job coaches were so busy, especially in some areas of Wales, people had to wait. This was something that wasn't very well received by participants in Engage to Change and the All Wales People First forum. We then, with the supported employment agency involved, were able to create job clubs, so people were then working on their employment skills already before being actively engaged in the project. In this sense, this kind of data collection system is really powerful, so I would welcome it if we can support the Welsh Government, to share our understanding and knowledge. It has proven to be really helpful with Engage to Change.

The papers you've provided obviously provide lots of evidence. There's one thing I wanted to clear up. You said earlier in your evidence that you'd had to make the disability ambassadors redundant because of COVID. That's obviously unfortunate, but we can't rewind on that. You say in your paper that the disability employment champions are a welcome addition, but you're disappointed about the loss of a disabled people's employment champion with lived experience of learning disability. Could you explain whether that's because they went on to get another job? It's Business Wales who is the employer of these people, is it?

I think we're talking about two different things here. The disabled people's employment champions are employed by the Welsh Government, and they are part of Business Wales. That's a completely different thing to the project ambassadors.

I understand that. I completely get that. Why have we lost this person with a lived experience of learning disability? Is that because by their personal choice they went on to do something else?

Yes, it was by their personal choice that they left that job and moved on to another one. But we have mentioned to the Welsh Government that we do feel that that is missing now, having a person with a learning disability who's a disabled people's employment champion.

What is Business Wales doing about it? We can ask them, obviously.

My understanding is that, from conversations I've had with the Welsh Government, they feel that the person with learning disabilities that left has left a legacy, and has helped the Welsh Government to reconsider how they employ and support people that they do employ, and that learning from that has been fed through to the disabled people's employment champions that they're working with. All of those places are filled now. I got the impression they're not going to be looking at recruiting another person who's got a learning disability because they haven't got a vacancy.

Fine. We'll pursue that with Ministers when they come in.

Thank you very much indeed, all of you, for your evidence. We'll send you a transcript, which you can look at and make sure that it's a correct record of what you wanted to say. Thank you very much indeed.

We've now got three items of correspondence to note. Do any Members want to raise anything or can we just agree to note them in public? I see no disagreement.

Therefore could we, under Standing Order 17.42, now exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting?