Children, Young People, and Education Committee

Diolch. First of all, I need to declare that I'm a member of the Wales committee for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and also I was co-opted for a couple of years to Careers Wales. It's deeply concerning, isn't it, when you look? There have been various reports that suggest that there are fewer young people participating either in employment, education or training at post 16, particularly, obviously, at post 18 in Wales. I don't think that we know the causes of that. There are lots of questions, and I'm sure that's why you want to get to the bottom of this today. We're obviously going to look at a range of factors, including access to education for those young people who are either by virtue of being from a disadvantaged group, or that they are disabled young people, more likely to be NEET—that's not in employment, education or training. So, I think there are a lot of questions today that, hopefully, we'll explore. But accessibility also includes transport—can young people get to the right place? And, obviously, it's really important to look at whether there are options available for every young person to encourage them to stay in school or college.

Thank you. My next question is for NASUWT. In your written submission, you state that the quality and nature of information provided to learners is varied. Why do you think this is, and what is the impact of this on learners when making decisions about their options after year 11?

The variance tends to be related to demography and geography, in the sense that there's a difference or a variance in the information provided according to the geographical location, primarily because, obviously, in the more populous areas of the country, the range of options available in terms of post-16 provision is all the more abundant than in rural areas. And so, associated with that abundance of opportunities, whether they be further education colleges, tertiary colleges or, I'll say, traditional sixth-form provision within secondary schools, you then have more support and information provided by the various bodies who provide this information, be it in-house or in-school careers advice or from outside agencies.

And then conversely, in the rural areas, because of the, not scarcity, but because there's a narrower range of provision naturally, because they're less populous areas, with fewer industries and so on and so forth that would provide the experience, the work experience and the options thereof to move forward, then you naturally get this variance in provision and support in terms of what choices there are post 16. And then the choices themselves, obviously, vary according to demography, because obviously the more populous the area, the more choices there are in terms of what you can attend, and, conversely, the fewer choices there are, the more rural the area is. You may have only one secondary school, or maybe there's one tertiary college that provides for a cluster of secondary schools and whatnot.

Thank you. Statistics provided to us from Parentkind show that 39 per cent of parents in Wales with a young person in secondary or post-16 education agree that their child's school or college helps them to explore a broad range of career possibilities. This is compared to 46 per cent of parents in England, 49 per cent of parents in Scotland, and 53 per cent of parents in Northern Ireland. Why do you think the figure is much lower in Wales than other parts of the UK? I'll open that question to anyone. Mary.

Yes, obviously it's really difficult to comment on other parts of the UK, but I think that there's definitely more that we could do to support careers advice, isn't there? Our members tell us that there used to be a much better system in terms of Careers Wales supporting schools with work experience, so we've definitely got to look at that in terms of the way that Careers Wales has pulled back from that. Obviously, there are funding issues, but, from a schools' perspective, they're not necessarily the experts at making sure that young people have those work experiences. It's really about the support that's there, isn't it?

Did anybody else want to—?

Yes, I will answer in Welsh, thank you. We'll come back to this theme, I'm sure, but the competition that there is in the system does cause concern in terms of this. And of course, that competition arises from the fact that funding is at stake here, and obviously, in terms of schools, as you have already heard, I'm sure, and as you will hear again, schools offer the provision that they have to the pupils where that's possible. Therefore, they're very keen to get students to return to the sixth form if it's appropriate for them to do so.

Therefore, it's only so much support—. As Mary has mentioned, the careers service and what they offer has reduced over the years. Are there more effective ways of doing this? I'm not sure. But the problem that we have in terms of this competition and ensuring that the numbers in schools are healthy in order to receive that funding militates against any sort of effective harmonisation in the area. Perhaps Medr will be helpful in terms of this.

I've been supporting members in a school in the last week because they're facing redundancies—compulsory redundancies, possibly—and the main reason is the reduction in the numbers going into the sixth form. Therefore, we have a perfect storm there. The last thing that they're going to do is to encourage those who have a good chance to do well at A-level—they're not going to encourage those pupils to do anything else, are they? And obviously that structure is clear.

So, we have to ask questions about the nature of that competition, and perhaps, more broadly, the nature of the provision and the schools that we have. Is what we're offering at the moment sufficient for the twenty-first century? But that's another issue.

If I may echo and add to what Ioan said there, the model or the structure that currently exists in Wales, it may be worth the committee scrutinising that model. That is, the pattern that has developed over the years—not everywhere, but in many areas, certainly in the north-west and north-east—is a shift away from the traditional situation where post-16 provision was provided by schools, to a structure where all the schools are changing to be 11-to-16 schools, and the traditional sixth-form students, if you will, are educated in a hub or a tertiary centre that may be at the heart of the cluster, as I said earlier.

And the schools that continue to exist with sixth-form provision, as Ioan said, then see themselves as being in competition to retain their students, for reasons that are clear, I hope. The more students you have, the more funding you receive, and therefore the more job security that exists. And even those schools that do have a sixth form are starting to decline because of a lack of staff who are able to provide a range of courses, which means that schools are now starting to collaborate. So, schools that are in close proximity to each other with sixth forms will perhaps collaborate so that, between them, they do have that range of provision.

So, it would perhaps be interesting to see some research undertaken into how the structure of post-16 education has developed over the past 15 to 20 years, just to see whether that is very different to what is in place in England and Scotland, and whether there is a correlation between this shift from the traditional—I'll use that term—those schools from the ages of 11 to 18, to a more area-based provision. I wonder whether that has had an impact.

Thank you. And my final question: what would your ideal model of the careers advice for pupils in schools and colleges look like, and do you think there's an age that careers advice should start? I'll open that to everyone again. Yes, Mary.

So, it's got to be really clear that we're encouraging children and young people to understand the jobs market, because, at the moment, the figures suggest that, at 24, we've got the highest number of not in education, employment and training for young people, apart from the disabled young people, which I'm sure we'll get to. But at 24, there's 20 per cent of young people who are NEET. So, I think it's worth asking the question: young people leaving school, what sort of jobs are they going into? Are they getting that trade union education so that they know what good jobs look like and how to join a trade union? How do we make sure there's secure employment there, and that we're not encouraging where children and young people don't want to go—we're not encouraging people into insecure work simply because it is work? Because then we might be increasing the number of young people who are NEET at the age of 24, and where it seems possible that we aren't leaving open that adult education so that it's really easy to go back into education. I think that's really important. So, from our perspective, it would be looking at the types of jobs that young people are doing, and I don't know if we've got that information.

Okay, thank you.

The Curriculum for Wales, of course, looks at the working world and asks pupils to consider different fields in different ways. Should that be sufficient? The careers service isn't as it was in the past, obviously; there is no funding there. But it's important that there are individual discussions happening from an early age in the secondary school, of course, but we need to ensure as well that those pathways are clear from the start.

I discuss with people involved with industry in the north-east and there's great concern there that young people are not keen to do apprenticeships and so on. Perhaps that is part of it—that there is insufficient information being provided in schools. But perhaps trying to maintain more of a relationship with industry, with the working world generally, and ensuring input in the schools through the careers service—I think that that could be one way that we should consider. But, of course, the time pressure within the Curriculum for Wales means that there is only so much time to do anything, given the high demand on the pupils, or that there will be on pupils, and the high demand on teachers, certainly.

The members tell us these days that careers advice is still a very important element, and perhaps it needs to be given earlier than what traditionally happens. Traditionally, it happens at the end of year 9 for GCSE and beyond, but the suggestion is that it does need to be offered far sooner, so that at least it is rooted as a norm and something that can be emulated. And interestingly, members tell us that there is so much information—I won't say 'advice', perhaps—about careers. Learners today pick things up from social media, from their contemporaries, which almost makes you wonder whether the careers advice that is traditionally given needs to adapt. But what we have also found—this is an important point—is that the pupils with additional needs are very dependent on traditional careers advice, if you like, for a range of reasons. They see greater benefit from having those one-to-one conversations with an individual, rather than discussing with their contemporaries or discussing it in a class and so on.

And the second point that I would make is that it is important that there is equality in terms of education pathways in Wales. In other words, and I'll go back to the original point that I made, with that comparison between those rural areas and those more industrial areas. In areas where there's plenty of provision available, the education pathways from school, primary school, and onwards, through to further education and beyond are relatively obvious and clear, because the institutions are out there in front of you. And then industry and the connection with industry is also out there in front of you. It isn't quite the same in rural areas, where because of the nature that I mentioned earlier, where sixth forms perhaps are clustered in tertiary colleges or in further education provision, the education pathways aren't as clear, and the pathways that enable one to step from education to industry—be that an apprenticeship, as Ioan said, or any kind of different provision—aren't quite as clear, and perhaps aren't as clear because they don't exist in that particular area because of the lack of range of options available there.

So, careers advice remains important, but I do think that it perhaps needs to be adapted to be more relevant to the particular situation in modern Wales, but also adapted to meet and address the differences that exist across the nation.

Thank you. Carolyn, please.

I think the questions arise because, very often, children start to think about their careers when they're looking at their choices for GCSEs. So, we were thinking—. And teachers, especially a teacher that maybe a child, a younger child, at primary school level, is attached to—in a way, they see them as their main contact at school, don't they; they're so influential. Or parents—very often, parents might direct a child into a career. So, that's why we were asking the question, really. Do you think, maybe earlier than GCSE level, advice should be given to children maybe—I know teachers are very busy, but through schools? Because they're very often that contact. If there's a careers adviser in school, they might not know about them or go to them; it's that trusted person that's giving them that educational time that they build that relationship with, or their parents—that seems to be the way forward at the moment. That's what we're hearing. So, I think that's why we were asking that question.

The question is, of course, is it direct career advice that is needed, or do we introduce, in primary schools, the practice of having various speakers come in? I'm sure various people working in factories, engineers, policemen, come in and have a discussion with the children. It's not necessarily career-based advice, is it? But I think the world of work is something that perhaps they do need to be introduced to earlier than secondary school, but not specifically for themselves.

If I can add on to that as well, should careers advice be a bolt-on, a tag-on thing that's stuck on extra, or should it be intrinsic to the Curriculum for Wales, and should be part of the weave, as Ioan was saying? I know in north-east Wales, for example, Airbus is a massive employer there, and Airbus are constantly in and out of schools doing various things, not necessarily career related, but they're there, they're physically there, and therefore they're visual and they're seen as—or that kind of career or the world of work is seen as—a visible thing from early on in areas. And I know it's the same elsewhere in the country. So, rather than careers advice be something you stick on as an extra thing when they're doing their choices, as it is now, possibly, or as it used to be, perhaps it should be intrinsically woven into the fabric of the curriculum.

Thank you. We'll now move on to some questions from Natasha, please.

Thank you so much, Chair. Good morning, everyone. My first couple of questions are going to be targeted at Mr Amlyn, and I hope that's okay. Your paper says that the schools with six forms will predominantly promote their own subjects over FE establishments, so to retain learners and therefore retain the associated finance that comes with it. So, how do you feel that schools can be encouraged to put their pupils' interests above their own?

It's a very good question. It's a reflection of the state of affairs in terms of finance in schools in Wales, isn't it? And as Ioan said earlier on in this meeting, the number of pupils, the bums on seats, essentially, dictates the budget of the school, and there is pressure on teachers from up above to ensure that pupil numbers don't fall. So, teachers will naturally do their best, especially at year 11, six-form boundaries, to try and retain as many pupils as possible. And it's done in a positive way, in the sense that the courses of the school—the A-level courses and whatnot of the school—are promoted and are shown to be a useful stepping-stone to higher education or training or whatever else. But that's not to say that these schools, because of the self-beneficial nature of retaining kids—it doesn't mean they don't engage with FE colleges and tertiary centres, because they do. FE colleges and tertiary institutions do have a foothold in these schools, they do come in and do give their presentations and show the wide range.

As I mentioned earlier, what schools do also to counter—not to counter, but to try and give a wider range to learners and keep them on site, as it were, is to collaborate with other schools nearby, so that between maybe three or four secondary schools close together, the A-level provision and other course provision they have is as wide as possible, and the commute is as small as possible.

Can you confidently say that there is equality in this belief and, I should say, can-do attitude, when it comes to that collaboration? Because the frustration I have is that I've actually gone to a lot of schools, I've visited colleges and, quite frankly, there isn't that desire for many schools to let their students go to colleges, because they do feel—. And even some children—and I'll be honest with you, I was one of them; I was never put in the direction of college. I was very much focused and pushed towards continuing my A-levels, staying in school, being there and present, and I feel that a lot of children are missing out on some great opportunities to potentially learn how to become a mechanic, a beautician et cetera, and are being taken away from other vocational subjects because the schools just want to retain them for the numbers.

Yes, absolutely. Whilst you're in your school, it's in your local area, the provisions are there, the travel element of it is well known and everybody is used to it. So, to move to an FE college or similar provision will invariably involve further distance to travel, a longer distance to travel, and a change in the dynamics of getting to that place, staying in that place and so on and so forth. So, that can be a barrier, and it varies, obviously, across the country, as I've said many times. It can be a barrier to some pupils who are making a decision based on certain factors, if the decision they have is, 'Well, I can stay in my local school 3 miles away, or I can travel every day on the 6 o'clock bus in the morning to the FE college 20 miles away; I know what choice I'm going to make.' But it is a shame, I agree with you, that our schools are unable to offer the courses to be a mechanic or a beautician or whatever. They used to—I remember them—but, of course, it's shrinking budgets. Shrinking budgets mean the very first courses to go are the ones with the least number of pupils attendant, and they invariably are sixth-form courses. So, unfortunately, it is a reflection of the funding in schools these days, unfortunately.

Okay. Thank you for answering the question. So, just for my own knowledge—and I hope you don't mind; I will come back to the questioning area that we want to focus on as well—and I appreciate that, yes, and I can put my hands up and say that I'd probably be one of those lazy students as well at that age, not wanting to travel the extra 6 miles to go to a college when my school is down the road, but we were just talking about education maintenance allowance yesterday, and that's an incentive for young people to get on the bus, to be able to make their way to that college, to be able to do that. Is that still not enough? Is that not deemed to be enough for children, or young people, to want to make their way to college, even by having that financial incentive to get there, even regardless of the transport measures they may need to embark upon to get there to do a course that they may actually really enjoy?

To be fair with you, we haven't got the data to comment either way on that, but, clearly, that is an incentive. What it might be interesting to look at is whether there are any cohorts of pupils who miss out or fall through the gaps. I don't have the answer. But you are right: you would expect that to be the incentive. The cynic might reflect your comment there, that, like I said, given the choice of travelling 3 miles or 20 miles, 'What are you going to do?' But, to be blunt with your question, we haven't got the data to explain that.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. And do you think that having an equivalent to the Baker clause in England here in Wales would help address the issue of access to pupils here in schools?

Good question. I haven't got the information to think of that either, to be honest.

Not a problem. If it's okay with you, if you have a think about it and write to us as a committee, I think that would be really appreciated.

Sure. Yes.

Perfect. So, this question's for everybody—I hope that's all right: Gower College Swansea has told us that senior leaders in schools with small sixth forms feel under particular pressure to secure enrolments. Is this something that you, perhaps, recognise in your particular lines of work, and how do you think that impacts on the senior leaders in schools?

I think that that's certainly a fair reflection of the situation, but to go back to what you were asking earlier to Siôn, I think that it's unfair to say that schools are not keen to develop partnerships with FE colleges because they're very content to do that for particular cohorts of pupils. That is, we have people who have access to things like mechanics, beauty or hairdressing in key stage 3 where that provision does not exist in their school, but I think that we're talking about a specific cohort there, and then that link between that cohort of pupils and the colleges is clear, and I think that the schools offer a definite link or connection there. But, for those who perhaps would benefit from going to further education colleges or who are on the brink between A-levels and other qualifications, I think that is a problem, and that's the group that leaders of smaller schools do pursue. I think that it's a pattern that can be seen more and more commonly where there are smaller schools, and all of the financial pressure and all of this competition mean that leaders don't have any other choice, or they're facing periods of redundancies in schools. The budgets are so seriously bad now that there's no flexibility at all and, as I've noted, schools are making redundancies on the basis of the numbers in their sixth forms being so small. So, it's certainly something that we hear from our members—that there's great pressure on leaders in terms of sixth forms. I'm sure we'll come to this later on, but it's even more of a problem, perhaps, in Welsh-medium schools where there is a sixth form, and there are several factors there that need to be considered. Certainly, we can agree on what you've been told already.

So, what factors do you think we need to consider?

In what way now?

You just mentioned that, when it comes to Welsh language schools, there are certain factors that need to be considered to look at development. What exactly—?

Oh, all right, as far as—

Okay, Welsh medium. I'm happy to go on about that for hours. We have a problem with our Welsh-medium schools, of course, and certainly beyond the north-west—and I'll treat the north-west a little differently—where there is no post-16 education that's appropriate for those who want to go into further education. Yes, the situation has improved a great deal, but the only organisations or institutions that, at the moment, contribute to the Government's target by 2050 are the Welsh-medium schools. The evidence that you've received, for example from the Welsh Language Commissioner's office, reflects that very clearly. What we have in Welsh-medium schools and schools with smaller sixth forms is that they can only choose a certain number of subjects, and there are only so many pupils who are truly keen to study those subjects. And if they want to look at a broader provision, it is very difficult within schools to offer that. The funding isn't there. There are redundancies happening at the moment. I don't want to name specific schools, but they're looking to get rid of specific topics, like business studies, for example, because the demand isn't there or the funding isn't there to maintain that provision.

So, we have smaller sixth forms, and we have a major problem in terms of transport as well. You've heard this several times. In several authorities, there is a question in terms of funding post-16 in terms of education institutions. There is one authority in north Wales where the colleges, in truth, pay for the transport, or the colleges have provided large centres that appeal to many pupils in the middle of a town. So, they are very accessible in that case, whereas those who are keen to go to Welsh-medium schools to continue with their studies have to catch a bus to the centre of town and then they have to get another bus out to the suburbs, or wherever the schools are. So, there is an issue in terms of transport there. And, of course, that is an issue that is also reflected very broadly as well. So, one thing that we’re calling on the Government to do to ensure equity is that transport to the most appropriate provision, in whatever language, is offered, and that that is offered for free. At the moment, it’s a very vague situation and different from authority to authority.

So, in terms of the Welsh language, we also have a problem in the FE colleges, where there are bilingual lecturers of very high quality, who can provide lessons and courses of very high quality. However, money talks, and it all comes down to money. These FE colleges are private companies to all intents and purposes, and even though they say they're going to conduct things bilingually, very often English is the medium, with a few terms in Welsh thrown in. I don't know if the model in parts of the north-west, where they've closed sixth forms and brought everyone into central centres, is a means of operating. Certainly, there is more Welsh provision in those colleges, and I think that that's a very good thing. But, in terms of the situation that we're facing, the sixth forms aren't going to be large, and we have to make sure that there are opportunities, on several levels, in both languages.

Thank you very much for that.

I'm really sorry, as I'm so conscious of time, could I bring Cefin in with his questions now while we're on this subject, because it's so interesting? I know you have the questions around Welsh-medium education.

Yes, fine. Thank you very much. My questions are on Welsh-medium education, and thank you, Natasha, for leading the discussion in that direction. We have received a number of submissions that have referred to limited choices—you mentioned this, and Siôn has mentioned this already—in post-16 education and training through the medium of Welsh. What impact do you think this is going to have on the choices that learners make when deciding what to do after year 11? It is very clear that, if the provision is smaller, that restricts the choice. But you have already said that that is inevitable because of the numbers of children going into the sixth form. But I wonder if you could expand a little bit on that specific point.

Yes. In terms of what you’ve just said, what we have very often is that there are some pupils who are very keen to stay in Welsh-medium education and perhaps choose to go on to do an A-level in subjects that are not truly appropriate for them, just in order to be able to stay in the Welsh-medium schools. But even more serious than that, we are losing Welsh speakers as they transition from the school to the world of work. They lose confidence as they go to these FE colleges, perhaps. And that is a big concern for us, because we are very keen to see more and more people working through the medium of Welsh, and to have more teachers teaching through the medium of Welsh. But that loss of confidence—.

I am aware that there are FE institutions who do try and maintain provision in Welsh—for example, the Welsh baccalaureate or the essential skills certificate—and they support them to do that through the medium of Welsh. But there’s a scarcity there in terms of suitable qualifications, and that’s a concern in terms of the transition from the language of school to everyday language. And we also see—because the smaller the sixth form, the smaller the provision—that the reduction will continue to happen under the current system. We don’t even see the range of A-levels offered that we would like to see in Welsh-medium schools. So, we are very eager to ensure that equity, and it’s possible that we need different financial modelling in order to ensure that.

I'm not sure if anyone else wants to come in on that point. Siôn.

Ie, mi ddof i yn ôl yn fanna, heb ailadrodd beth mae Ioan wedi’i ddweud, ddim ond i ategu. Pan fydd gennych chi ysgolion uwchradd dwyieithog, lle mae modd derbyn eich addysg hyd at 16 mlwydd oed, un ai yn Saesneg neu yn Gymraeg, yn ôl eich dymuniad, pan fyddwch chi wedyn yn trosi i’r chweched dosbarth, oherwydd y diffygion yn y gyllideb rydyn ni wedi clywed amdanynt yn barod, rydych chi’n mynd i gael sefyllfaoedd lle mae ysgolion ddim ond yn gallu cynnig un dosbarth ar gyfer y pwnc yna, ac mi fuasai’r dosbarth yna un ai'n gyfrwng Saesneg neu'n ddwyieithog. Felly, yn syth, o gamu o flwyddyn 11 i’r chweched dosbarth, mae’r arlwy neu’r cyfrwng wedi newid o fod yn Gymraeg yn unig i fod yn ddwyieithog. Felly, mae yna lastwreiddio wedi digwydd yn fanna yn barod.

Wedyn, mae yna bosibilrwydd y bydd cyfrwng y gwersi yna yn Saesneg, gyda darpariaeth ar gyfer adnoddau Cymraeg, oherwydd, efallai, fod arbenigedd yr athro neu’r athrawes yn gryfach yn y Saesneg oherwydd yr addysg. Ac mae hynna’n mynd â fi i’r ail ran: os oes gennych chi ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, yn hytrach na dwyieithog, lle mae’r addysg i fod yn Gymraeg i gyd, pan fyddan nhw’n trosglwyddo i addysg bellach neu i sefyllfa drydyddol, mae yna dueddiad i’r cyfrwng newid, oherwydd, efallai, fod y staff yn y sefydliadau pellach yma yn dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Felly, yn sydyn iawn, o fynd o flwyddyn 11 i’r chweched dosbarth, rydych chi’n colli’r cyfrwng yn fanna. Ac o hynny ymlaen, mae’r cyfrwng wedi newid i Saesneg.

Felly, mae’r llwybr gydol oes yma o ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg ddim jest yn yr ysgol, ond fel rhan o we'r gymuned, ac fel iaith y gwaith, yn gallu diflannu, oherwydd y newid yna a all ddigwydd wrth symud o flwyddyn 11 i addysg bellach. Mae'r iaith yn cael ei heffeithio yn y trosglwyddiad yna. Ar sail hynny, dydy hi ddim yn sefyllfa gydradd o ran y Saesneg a'r Gymraeg, yn anffodus.

From our perspective, we agree that there is an issue. I think it's really important that we have a workforce plan that addresses this. When we had an earlier draft of the Welsh language and education Bill, we surveyed our members, and even those members who were really confident fluent Welsh speakers wanted more support to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. It's really important that that's available. And then I think what we're talking about fundamentally today is that there's a market and that market isn't working. I think it's really important that we don't create more of a market but that we look at every individual child and how they can fulfil their potential. That's what our members are there for. That's why they're teaching and lecturing and supporting young people, because they want them to be able to fulfil their potential. So, we've got to make sure that the range of pathways is there and that everybody is enabled to be able to do them.

Thank you for raising the matter of a workforce plan. That'll be my final question, Mary, but I'll come back to that.

If I may just ask the next question and continue with that theme of that continuation in terms of Welsh medium into the sixth form or, in particular, into further education colleges. I'll be completely honest, I know about FE colleges that say that they provide provision through the medium of Welsh, but in most cases—not in every case, but in most cases that I'm aware of—they provide bilingual provision. And what bilingual means is that the lingua franca in a situation like that, all the time, is English. And then we also know from research that the confidence of a young person to use the Welsh language if they come from a non-Welsh-speaking home is lost if that person does not use the language very often post 16 and onwards into the world of work. What's your opinion on what could be done about this? Because we know that the provision in FE colleges is very small in terms of that Welsh-medium provision. What should we be doing in order to ensure that equity for learners who have followed a Welsh-medium pathway up to 16?

I know you've got a workforce plan question, but I think it's another instance where we can talk about the workforce plan, to be honest, because we've got to really know what we've got and be able to support the workforce to deliver as much Welsh language provision as possible to enable those choices for those learners. But what we must do as well is recognise that there will be teachers and lecturers who have got really deep subject knowledge that we don't want to lose in enabling people to be able to learn through the medium of Welsh, so that we're equipping the workforce as much as possible to ensure that they've got the available training and support—and we didn't mention training and support and careers. I think that professional learning pathways are really important for the workforce. And, again, some of those things come back to funding, don't they? So, funding for the sector—we don't know what Medr will exactly do yet, but there are opportunities and there are risks.

Anybody else very quickly?

Very quickly. It's noteworthy to say that the Welsh language Bill makes no mention of the workforce. And finally, imagine the old days, local education in your school up to form six level, a wide range of subjects.

And that linguistic care is in place so that you don't lose out. The situation is more fragile in the south-east and the south-west, of course, because of concerns regarding the strength of the English language in those particular areas. And you're right that in this step from the fifth form to the sixth form, as you described, there is a risk of losing the language in that transition. But to think that the Welsh language Bill doesn't have the word 'workforce' in it at all is very significant, I think.

One sentence: we need to ensure that the colleges do provide what they promise they will provide. There are—. Okay, two sentences: in the north-west, we have lecturers of a very high standard who can teach through the medium of Welsh, but they don't always have that opportunity, so we need to ensure that that provision is there and that the promises are kept, and that's an issue for the Government and perhaps for Estyn too.

Thank you very much. The final question leads us very neatly to the need for a plan to develop a workforce that can provide post-16 courses either in sixth forms or in FE colleges, or apprenticeships as well, through the medium of Welsh. I happen to agree that we need to have that workforce plan in the Bill, but those discussions are happening at the moment. So, could I ask the three of you what you'd like to see happening in terms of developing workforce skills in order to be able to respond to this demand?

Very quickly. We're so short on time.

It's about a range of opportunities for the workforce, isn't it, to enable the aspirations in the Welsh language and education Bill; it's about ensuring that the workforce have those opportunities and are enabled to make sure that they are able to upskill themselves in terms of being able to provide Welsh-medium provision. And like I said, I think that over half of our members who said that they were fluent Welsh speakers wanted more support. So, it's really important that it's there at every level.

We need to widen the net and ensure that jobs in further education appeal to people from the world of industry, to go to that final part of your question. There are enough Welsh speakers working in industry, whether that's in the north-east, south-east, or even in the north-west, but we need to widen that net and ensure that what is offered is an offer that's worth considering.

Thank you. We're going to have to move on because we're so short on time. I have a question. If you could be as concise as possible with your answers, because I know that Carolyn's got questions that she's desperate to ask as well. How well do you think that the specific needs of young people with ALN are taken into account when considering what their options are after year 11, both in terms of what they would like to do as well as extra support to be put in place to keep their options open? As concise as possible, please.

Well, it's obviously not sufficient, and I think it's part of the lack of finance in the system, isn't it? I wouldn't want to differentiate, and perhaps Mary will have more to say, because I know she's been discussing that in far greater detail than myself. But it isn't sufficient, obviously.

It's definitely not sufficient. I'm trying to work out how to answer it really briefly. The statistics are really stark, aren't they, for young people with additional learning needs, and they coincide particularly with the introduction of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. Pushing down the responsibilities to schools and colleges to support young people without the funding and the training and the support to do that seems to definitely be correlating with those young people not being in education, employment or training. That appears to be the correlation. The statistics are horrible. I think it's 40 per cent of young people in your 19 to 24 bracket, and I think there's something there for the Welsh Government. They're obviously looking at the ALN code, but as a disabled person, I find it chilling.

Thank you for your answer, we appreciate it. Carolyn, please.

Thank you. An Estyn report found that where schools with sixth forms do allow representatives into schools to meet with learners, this is sometimes restricted to specific groups of learners within the school who are unlikely to progress into the sixth form. How do you respond to Estyn’s findings? Does this create a two-tier system based on perceived academic ability? And do you believe this creates the wrong message for learners as well, who then might think, if they go down the college route, it's not so academic, so they really must go through the sixth form? So, just your thoughts on that, please.

It's going to vary, isn't it, across Wales. Because as we've already discussed, some local authorities don't have that school sixth-form provision, so there is going to be variation across Wales. Sorry, Ioan—you were about to speak.

It's quite okay. The point I was going to make—. 'Yes' and 'yes'. And with reference to my previous answer, there is a specific cohort that they've developed links with from year 10 onwards, and it's going to be very difficult to change that mindset. There are some authorities with a further ed college but there are still one or two sixth-form provisions there, and they are supposed to work in collaboration. I can think of an authority not far from where I live. But what we've got is a two-tier system. We need to find a way of getting rid of that two-tier system, but making sure that the finance is in place and that all aspects are considered, including the linguistic aspect.

Schools, and there are many of them, that are 11 to 16 obviously aren't precious about that because they don't have a sixth form to populate. The scenario described here does exist, but it's a natural consequence of the fact that schools tend to only be able to provide academic courses in A-level because for the practical courses—the engineering, the beautician courses—they're unable to afford the equipment to run the course. So, there is a natural tendency that has evolved over time that the practical hands-on courses are taken up by the FE institutions, whereas the academic stuff is held on to by the schools. I think it's more of a natural progression to this kind of scenario, rather than any deliberate intent on behalf of the school. However, of course, retaining your sixth-form pupils does have a positive effect in terms of the school's budget.

Thank you. Siôn, your paper says that there is stronger engagement between FE colleges and employers than between schools and employers. Why do think this is, and how can better working between schools and colleges and employers be encouraged?

It's normally the case that the careers aspects within schools are undertaken by teachers who have a full teaching load, who will be teaching all day and so on and so forth, and that any career responsibilities they may have are an added, supplemental part of their post. So, because of that, there's a natural restriction on the amount of work and engagement that these individuals can do, because they have a full-time teaching job, so to speak. So, unless you have—and I know FE colleges have it—a dedicated full-time career officer or similar, who can proactively go out and engage proactively with employers to bring them in, schools are very reliant on the inputs of third parties—Careers Wales or whoever—in terms of bringing stuff in and arranging these engagement sessions. And schools are really reliant on what the individuals or the employees are able to do on top of their teaching engagement. So, they're doing the best they can with what they have, in one sense, I guess.

Do schools not still organise, for the Welsh baccalaureate, work experience placements? Because I remember they used to employ somebody to help with that. So, has that diminished?

It has diminished. And I think one of the biggest issues was with insurance as well, for students being able to go on placements. So, it's a struggle to get students on placements and work experience, to be honest. And I know it's usually on a voluntary basis by now.

Can I—? Sorry, Mary.

I was just going to say—I think Siôn's already highlighted it—that it's an add-on to somebody's job, from speaking to members, so I think it's an extra thing that people are arranging, by this point.

Can I just ask one more, a quick one?

Yes.

I don't know if you'll have the answer to this, but I was talking somebody who wanted to go down an apprentice route, but also wanted to continue with A-levels, but wasn't able to do both. I suppose that's a funding issue, isn't it?

It is, yes.

Yes, and Siôn's nodding. So, is that something that needs looking at, do you think, so that they can do both?

Well, you know, it'd be interesting to see where these FE centres or schools are in Wales where not only do they have a wide suite of A-level options, but they also have a wide suite of practical, work-based options as well. Unfortunately, I would bet that they don't exist any more and that there's delineation between A-level schools doing the academic stuff and the FE colleges tending to do the hands-on stuff. But, again, it's just a natural evolution of things because of funding, as you said.

Mary, please.

It's my understanding, Carolyn, that work-based learning and therefore apprenticeship funding has been cut, so that will create extra barriers to offering that range of academic and vocational courses. I think it's really important. I don’t think we're in a place where they've got parity of esteem and I think that is really important.

Yes.

Thank you. Does any other Member have a question they'd like to ask, because I think we have literally one minute?

There's just one final question and it's on an area and subject that everyone's touched upon, in the phrase, but I think we should ask a question on it. It's: to what extent does the poor quality of information and support provided to learners at school result in the likelihood of young people getting a NEET status, and being not in employment, education or training? And do you find, in your own personal experiences, that it's harder for these young people to then re-engage with education once they've left school at 16?

Absolutely.

Yes.

It's the old adage that you leave university, or you leave sixth form, and you take a year to go around the world and, 'I'll re-engage with my education once I come back'—you know, you never do. Once you're out, as you said, it's very hard to re-engage; it's much easier to stay within your educational path without any breaks, because, once you have a break, then other things and interests will take your attention. And in many cases, of course, they find employment, possibly, or some kind of employment, and they say, 'Well, I've got a steady—. I've got an income and I prefer this to doing any education.'

So, to make it simpler, then, in a one-word answer, who do you think should be responsible for supplying the information to make sure that they’re aware of just the options that are available to them?

Sorry, can I just answer your previous question?

Of course you can, yes.

I was just going to say that I don’t think, today, we’ve really touched on youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds, whose parents don’t have as much income. I think we’re in a situation where potentially young people are spending their EMA on the bus to get to college, and I thought it was college by college, but it’s local authority by local authority; it’s depending on the funding arrangements. So, some colleges over different local authorities will have different offers for whichever site of that college—so, it’s the same college but a different site—that you’re able to access that transport. So, for young people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds there are going to be multiple barriers. And I think it’s really important and I hope in your future evidence sessions you’re able to explore that some more, because there will be multiple barriers. Some of those are things we can do things about as a Government—you know, that the Welsh Government can do things about.

Okay. I’m sure we will in future, rest assured. Thank you so much for that. So, who’s responsible for the poor quality of the information going out to young people then? And who can improve it?

Well, I think there’s an opportunity for Medr, isn’t there?

Medr.

It could. The problem is that it's so high stakes with curriculum pressures in schools it’s going to be very, very difficult to provide that space.

Okay.

I think it should be part of the weave of the curriculum, rather than a bolt-on thing you give them in year 9, something extra. Careers and career choices, career pathways, should be intrinsic in the curriculum.

Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We could keep you here the whole day, unfortunately for you. We do still have a number of questions to ask. Is it okay if we write to you with those questions? We really do appreciate it when you do take the time to reply to us. So, again, thank you so much for this morning. You’ll be sent a transcript of this morning’s proceedings for checking in due course. Thank you again.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch.

Thank you. So, we’ll now take a short break for five minutes. Thank you.