Petitions Committee

We'll move on now to updates to previous petitions. We've got item 3.1, P-06-1456, 'I demand a full public enquiry into the closure of Welsh Air Ambulance bases in mid and North Wales'. This was submitted by Karl Ciz, with 10,437 signatures, and we had a really good debate in the Chamber about this. Could I invite Altaf, who's online, to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take? Altaf.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good afternoon. This petition was debated in Plenary before Christmas. Following the debate, the petitioner wrote to say the Minister had missed the point. He argued that

'A Public inquiry would allow all data and data-driven decisions to be independently scrutinised and verified, and the correct decision about coverage to be reached, in public.'

Local MS Russell George also wrote to the Chair,

'asking the Committee to set out what steps it now intends to take to hold both the Welsh Government and NHS Wales to account on the commitments made—that no bases would close until the Rapid Response Vehicles are fully in place and operational. Public trust is already fragile, particularly given the absence of detailed information on these commitments, and it is'—

on pack page 9, a Senedd-restricted page, and also page 10—

'essential that the assurances previously given are not allowed to lapse without appropriate scrutiny.

'Given the cross-party concern, the opposition from both Powys and Betsi Cadwaladr health boards, and the overwhelmingly clear views of the public and clinicians alike, it is vital that this issue receives continued and robust parliamentary oversight. I would therefore be grateful if the Committee could confirm how it intends to progress this petition, including any planned evidence sessions, correspondence, or recommendations to the Welsh Government.'

On possible action, I think, in most cases, that a debate marks the end of the petition's journey. There seems little prospect of achieving a public inquiry—the headline request of this petition. However, given the urging of the petitioners and the local MSs, Members may wish to follow up the pledges made in the debate and write to the Minister, requesting a timeline setting out when the rapid response vehicles will be fully operational and when the bases will close. Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Altaf. Would anybody else like to come in? Yes, Vaughan.

I don't agree. I think that the debate in Plenary is the end of the journey for this petition through the Senedd. If the health committee wants to take the matter up, that is a matter for them as the lead subject committee. When I joined the committee, I went through the fact that there are petitions that seem to go on. As long as someone asks them to go on, they carry on. If you're the local MS, I understand why you might want to carry on, particularly if you're campaigning against something, or even for something, depending on your point of view, but that doesn't mean that it's a good use of this committee's time. Because this is a decision that the Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service Cymru has made, and if you're closing two bases and consolidating them into one, you're always, in any public service, going to get people who say that's wrong. Lindsay would have had this in the difficult choices he made as the leader of Caerphilly, no doubt. Any time you make a choice that involves moving services around, people will object to it.

A public inquiry won't get to the truth of this, and it's not the right issue for a public inquiry. Public inquiries are hugely expensive, and I don't think we should get lost in that. This is really—and I understand why—for people who don't want the decision to go ahead, but the decision's been made. And it's fair to point out, I think, that the people who don't want this to happen have also taken legal action. There's been a judicial review that they've lost as well. When it comes to wanting to see data, it isn't as if data hasn't been provided. The petitioners and the campaigners on this issue don't agree with it. As I said earlier, you're entitled not to agree, but that doesn't mean that a decision can't be made. And actually, when it comes to health service reorganisation and improvement, you've got to be able to make choices and see them through. And that'll be the case for this Government, for this group of people responsible for running and delivering the health service, just as it will be regardless of what happens in May this year.

And actually, for the use and the time of this committee and the Parliament, there's a local Member who's made clear he wants to carry on asking questions. Others may want to as well. That's perfectly right and proper. I don't think, after lengthy consideration and a debate in the Chamber, where there's no real prospect of extra parliamentary time changing the decision, and if we go down that line, we'll have to have a line drawn on whether we think that is the right decision. Are we really going to have the petitioners in here, together with the people who run the emergency medical transfer service, otherwise known as the Wales air ambulance, to come in? The Wales Air Ambulance Charity supports the flying doctor scheme and how the bases are organised. I don't think this is—. I think this really is where the petition should stop.

Anybody else like to speak on this? Is it not unreasonable for the committee to write to the Minister, though, requesting a timeline for when the rapid response vehicles will be fully operational and when the bases will close, just to—? Because that was a huge part of the debate that took place. And copying in the Health and Social Care committee as a recommendation, without—. That's not going too far. Would you accept that? Yes. We could do that. We're not reopening it. We're just writing to the Cabinet Secretary, asking that, and copying in the Chair of the Health and Social Care committee, okay? And then closing it.

Yes.

And closing it. Okay? And Altaf just nodded in agreement. Okay, thank you.

If we move on now to 3.2, P-06-1491, 'We demand a fair deal for residents affected by the Arbed and CESP scheme'. And this was submitted by Rhiannon Goodall with 333 signatures. Sorry, that was online. And also collected on paper, which was—. So, we had a total of 606 signatures. Could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. This is the third consideration of this matter, which has been mentioned in the Senedd throughout this term. I know, before he was Deputy First Minister, Huw Irranca-Davies raised this regularly on the Plenary floor, and I know a colleague, Luke Fletcher, has done the same, a former member of this committee. We're in the situation where the petitioner's response is very different to that of the Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary sees real progress, positive progress, and we have the petitioner then rebutting a lot of the contents of that letter from the Cabinet Secretary.

Now, there are three main asks: they want a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary, potential compensation and, thirdly, a public inquiry. Well, the second two are outside our remit as a committee, but I think we could write to the Cabinet Secretary, just requesting for her to meet the petitioner and the campaigners. But as we're doing that, I'd also suggest that we thank the petitioner and close the petition. Diolch.

Okay. Does anybody else want to come in? Okay. So, for action, we will write to the Cabinet Secretary to ask if she would meet with the petitioners. I could meet with them as well as Chair of the Petitions Committee if you'd like, offer that, and then close the petition. Okay, thank you.

Item 3.3 is P-06-1515, 'Urgent installation of CCTV at Porth Train Station and bridge'. This was submitted by Emma Cawston with 255 signatures. Could I invite Vaughan to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Yes, thank you. I think this is an interesting point in terms of the response from the transport police, noting that there is anti-social behaviour linked to the railway station, some of it from passengers, some of it around the rail line as well. And what I think is interesting is that the response goes into some detail about what is happening, on the 25 CCTV cameras that operate. Only one is currently out of service. Coverage includes both platforms, and it's really interesting, I think, that the numbers are relatively low in terms of the number of offences, but they're going to have a significant impact on both the individuals who are subject to that behaviour, but also broader public confidence. It does seem that what is highlighted is that the station does now have extensive CCTV coverage, which is a good thing, so I think that's a positive outcome for the petitioners, and also in responding it looks to me as if transport police, Transport for Wales and other partners have looked again at the way that they work as partners and that refresh of partnership, which should be a good thing for partners and in particular for the community that they all serve.

So, I think this is one where it can be marked off as a plus for the petitioner, where action does appear to have been taken in renewing and strengthening partnerships. There is now significant coverage, and I hope that helps to both deter the incidents the petitioners complained of, and hopefully, if it were to happen again, to make sure those people are caught and dealt with properly.

Yes.

And I'd suggest we close the petition at that point.

Okay. Would anybody else like to comment? Okay. So, yes, congratulations to the petitioner, and we will close the petition. Thank you.

So, we move on to 3.4, which is petition P-06-1534, ‘End corridor care in Wales’, and it reads:

'In Wales, patients are currently receiving care on trolleys or chairs for hours on end, often days, in pain and suffering. Doctors, nurses, and health care staff are forced to treat and care for patients in corridors, car parks, and other places where safe, dignified care isn't possible and where they lack access to life-saving equipment. The Royal College of Nursing Wales and the BMA Cymru Wales are jointly raising the alarm on patient safety for Welsh Government to eradicate corridor care.'

Okay, could I invite Lindsay to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Thank you, Chair. Again, another serious issue. I'm sure that I speak for many people across Wales when I say that I can name you four individuals who are personally known to me who have had a relatively serious illness—well, one very serious illness—and they have spent a day or two sleeping in a chair in a corridor. When you have cancer and when you're 91, you shouldn't be sleeping in a chair, you should at least be sleeping in a bed, albeit in a corridor. I would hope that corridor would be at least warm, not very private, but at least when you're resting, you need to be resting in a bed and not a chair. I genuinely believe that no-one should spend a night in a chair. We are not people waiting at an airline for a cancelled flight. These are people who are seriously ill indeed.

I can cite you a case of a gentleman, who contacted me only last week, by the name of Phil Mason, who collapsed suddenly and spent over 24 hours in the chair, and he wanted to quite naturally complain to someone, and I was the person he came to. And, do you know, the encouraging part is Phil Mason didn't complain about the fact that he slept in a chair. He wasn't happy, but that wasn't his complaint. His main concern was the welfare of the staff who were looking after him. He was worried about the 86-year-old patient who was wandering the corridor, getting up out of her chair that night, but he didn't worry about himself. He was concerned about other patients and concerned about the welfare of staff who, he said, were nothing short of exceptional—exceptional—and the service he had. And that's all his main concern was, not for himself. That's the calibre of the patients we have in Wales—whereas a lot of people complain about, ‘What are you going to do for me?’, this gentleman was saying, ‘What are you going to do for the others?’, not only for the patients but for the staff as well, and I find that encouraging.

As I've said, I cannot fathom why the health boards across the whole of Wales allow people to sleep in a chair; it should at least be a bed. I have literally visited Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr within the last month, and I can tell you that there are beds stacked one on top of each other in parts of Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr that are not being used. So, why is that? Why aren't those beds stacked on top of each other not being taken to the hospitals where people need them to at least rest? You get a much better night's sleep sleeping on a bed than you do in a chair. I'm not a doctor, but I know that from my own personal experience.

What do we do? Well, obviously the RCN and the British Medical Association are calling on—. We have four calls that they are asking, and I fully endorse those calls, about recording and reporting corridor care and doing everything that those august bodies request us to do. And I notice a possible action is it's now time for all parties to come forward with ideas to tackle these issues. Well, all parties in Wales, my own included, are formulating their manifestos right now, and there has to be room in those manifestos for an end now to putting people in chairs and allowing them to sleep for 24 or 48 hours or even longer. I think we could thank the petitioners, and hope that the manifestos produced by all of the parties in Wales will produce an answer to these questions that the BMA and the RCN and the petitioners want, and that the public and everyone will vote accordingly, and that whoever is controlling the Senedd after May 2026 will implement their manifesto and put an end to the scandal of people sleeping in chairs in hospitals. I don't think I can, with all honesty, recommend anything else; I would love to. If I could wave a wand and end it I'm sure we all would, but I can't. So, that's all I can offer to this committee, I'm afraid. I don't know if the other Members have anything else they feel they could add.

Vaughan.

Just briefly, Chair. It's much easier to point out the indignity of corridor care than say, 'Here is what to do about it and how', because you do have—. The largest number of staff that have ever worked in the NHS work in the NHS today, and still we have demand coming in. And not just demand, but it's the level of ill health coming in and, actually, our population isn't getting healthier. So, there's a challenge about what all of us, or the choices all of us get to make in our own lives and what that then means for the challenge the health service has. Money is always part of the answer, but it's only part of the answer, because there is still something about how our service is organised, how it's run. When I talk about 'our service', I don't just talk about the NHS, it's about social care as well, how to keep people well in their own homes, but also how to get people out of hospital when they no longer need to be there, because the problems at the front door almost always relate to what takes place in the community and at the back door of a hospital as well, where people can't get into their own homes, whether that home is a care home or a private residential home.

So, actually, this challenge is an obvious one to be able to look at and diagnose what that means for people, whether they're staff or patients. It's actually going to be harder to resolve it, but there's going to need to be commitment that goes beyond an election period to do something about that. And I think we could do with some honesty amongst ourselves as elected representatives and with the public about the fact that, whatever happens in May, the issue won't go away. It will take a period of commitment to change our whole system for that issue to disappear and to be in a place where all of us around this table and, indeed, the former NHS staff member on the screen would actually be happy about.

Thank you. And could I bring in Altaf as well, please?

Chair, thank you very much. I think I'm privileged, really, to be here and to talk about that. I didn't know that I would be talking about this corridor care. It is a problem you see and, for instance, Lindsay was talking about the rate of the patients on these trolleys and chairs, and we don't know the effect it has on these patients. Previously, I think—the health Minister will bear me out, my friend—in those days, we would be talking about more than a few hours, if a patient was there, and what would be the effect on the scale. Nowadays, we don't talk about it. But let me make it more clear: my concern is about the scale of the waiting list, high readmission and operation rates in hospitals, in addition to high mortality, particularly among the elderly population.

Now, Bevan's concept, and separate to the national NHS, should illustrate—[Inaudible.]—about self-interest, group interest or political interest. NHS interest cannot be viewed as subordinated interest, subordinated to personal interest, subordinated to administrative interest, or even subordinate to political interest. The current state of the NHS demands urgency for corrective measures. Unless we identify the basic problem in the NHS and take corrective actions now, it will be too late, if it is not already too late. I don't want our political leaders, and Cabinet Secretaries who are in charge of health, to become clinicians.

Managers in NHS hospitals were created with the admirable intention of helping the clinicians to focus on patient care. Managers were appointed without any job description, or, at best, a job description of managerial creation. It will remain a fact that none have got any other job description. They have become the embodiment of self-focus, self-development, self-progression, self-preservation, self-extension, and self-propagation, to the exclusion of the broader interest of NHS. This tendency can fundamentally subordinate and undermine our NHS, which it has already done.

So, on the one hand, we are trying to make new hospitals, use AI, new instruments, new technology. On the other hand, some existing hospitals and some wards in the existing facilities are being closed, with the result that, apart from the waiting list, patients are waiting for beds in corridors and are on trolleys. It should be recognised immediately that the only Welsh national service with responsibility for emergencies needs certain in-built contingency over capacity.

Now, we used to have observation wards in A&E departments attached—in the twentieth century. They are closed. They have closed them all. They have closed those community hospitals where we would send the patients for rehab. It was not a rehab, it was a space where they would go then to their homes or to care centres from that setting. It's not happening. So, it is a hotchpotch, and it is horrible. It needs an overhaul, and our NHS administrators, politicians, they need help.

Thank you, Altaf. We did have a petition—petition 1350, which was to reopen the Dyfi ward at Tywyn Hospital, and we've had an e-mail from them in light of this petition coming forward. There were 16 in-patient beds, and they've remained closed. And I remember being told when I asked about this, as a North Wales Member, that it was because there was a staff shortage. But now I've been told that, against the odds, there are now enough staff to reopen it. So, I think I'll write to the health board and ask why they are not reopening it. But it's things like this that you think, maybe, would make a difference. In Flintshire, we've still got three community hospitals. We fought to keep them open—minor injuries—and they're there. And they are rebuilding care homes as well. But it seems like there's an awful lot, isn't there, to consider.

The reason I couldn't go to my breast cancer screening on Friday was because I was with my mum in a health emergency in a hospital corridor in the Countess of Chester. And throughout the day and evening, you could see the whole corridor was full of beds on wheels, and people were being moved for x-rays, a couple were sent home, others were sent for scans and others were coming in as well—it was continuous. One area of the corridor had curtains that could be closed around the bed, as well, and there was a consulting room off the corridor. Throughout the day, though, people were having blood tests and they were having their blood pressure checked. The staff were great, they set up a little unit on the corridor. At 11 o'clock in the evening, two specialists came to see my mum and we went into this room to check her out, which, again, amazed me that they were working on a Friday night at 11 o'clock. And then she got moved onto the ward at 4 o'clock in the morning. So, I was relieved that she was still getting the attention on that corridor, and it wasn't great because there's no privacy and it's very hard for people to move around all the time, for the staff who were working there. It's not right. But I'd just like to say how grateful I am that she received the attention. It was interesting to see how it was working—

I think, Chair, during COVID, I know it was a major emergency, but we could set up emergency hospitals across Wales and they were set up quite quickly. They weren't used too widely and you could argue that that is a good thing or a bad thing—I think it was a good thing they weren't used too widely—but something can be done, surely, to prevent this. This can't go on where we're treating people in—. And Vaughan Gething, former health Minister, former First Minister, is quite right: it's getting those people out of the back door quickly as well. That's all contributing to this. And social care is a major problem, but if money could be found then, I don't understand why it can't be found now.

Every one of those—. Sorry, I didn't mention—

Well, I think it's really easy to understand why. There were lots of functions then that weren't being run, so actually you had money that couldn't be spent and, in addition, in an emergency—and the pandemic was an extraordinary emergency—you go in and you spend money in a different way, in a different horizon. This is a regular challenge that every Government of Wales will have for several years to come, both how to resolve the challenge and then to make sure that it doesn't reappear. So, I think the petition has been helpful in highlighting that, with the debate in Plenary, and I'm sure it will feature as part of the election campaign, and it will feature regardless of the result as part of a regular conversation that we need to have, because we have significant additional pressures about the health and the needs of our population, and it's got to be seen as a health and social care challenge that affects staff and the people who need the care as well.

Can I just say that every one of those—? There were a lot of beds in the corridor going a long way back, and they were all elderly, but they were there for x-rays because they'd had falls or different things like that, as well as just checks. There was somebody who had a heart condition and thought maybe he was having a recurring heart attack, but he wasn't; they checked that out there and then as well. I know this because it's so open that you hear, and that's the thing, you don't get the privacy, do you? So, you said, you know, it was older people; there were some younger people who came in through A&E and went straight to the children's ward. The ambulance worker who brought us in, she said that they do have regular users who call them, and that's something that needs to be dealt with as well.

Yes. They have needs, but they're not necessarily health needs.

I think we've had a really good discussion on this. Altaf, did you want to come in again?

Yes. I want to make—. You have made a very important point. You see, when I was a practitioner, I was working in A&E departments, and in those days, there was nothing like this wait, because the A&E departments had a workforce, you know, doctors were there working all the time. We had small, minor surgeries and we had 10 cubicles with four or five doctors looking after those. So, there was no wait for any patients. Nowadays, none of our health boards, none of our health Ministers tell us the ratio between the public who are coming to A&E departments and the staff who look after them. It is only—. They say only about the public, public, public, public; we never know how many doctors at a time are working in any A&E department. And I tell you, I assure you, if you find it, I have seen it myself, it won't be more than one or two for 24 hours who will be looking after those minor ailments and other things. It is only during the consultant's time that he is in his chair, doing nothing, making the rotas for these doctors who are there in low numbers, and it is shameful.

I did see quite a few doctors going back and to. But, anyway, there we go, we've had a good airing of this and there's lots to be done. I'm sure it will be part of the groups' manifestos going forward and will probably get very political unfortunately as well, but there we are. So, if we move on now to—. There were no other actions that we needed to take, were there? No.

Item 3.5, petition P-06-1531, 'Mandate Comprehensive and Specific Food Labelling to Support Dietary Needs and Allergies'. That was submitted by Jessica Davies, with 308 signatures. Could I invite Altaf to discuss the petition, please?

Thanks a lot. The Food Standards Agency response says that they continue to monitor the evidence for expanding the list of 14 foods that have to be labelled, and that there are no plans to change labelling with respect to starches and where they come from. The petitioner is disappointed with the response and asks

'What steps can be taken now, before long-term research is complete, to ensure greater transparency in ingredient sourcing? Could mandatory source labelling be introduced for categories like starches, vegetable oils, or thickeners, where multiple potential allergens may be hidden? What mechanisms exist for incorporating lived experience—such as families managing complex or non-listed allergies—into the decision-making process? Is there a plan to review the system regularly so that people with less common allergies are not left waiting indefinitely for protection?'

She adds:

'This issue is about safety, dignity, and the ability to live without fear. Every individual with an allergy deserves to know whether the food they buy is safe for them. At present, many people are forced to avoid a huge range of foods simply because labelling is too vague to confirm whether hidden ingredients may harm them.'

On possible action, in the absence of new research evidence and considering the response from the Welsh Government and the Food Standards Agency, it is difficult to see many avenues to progress. Thanks and close, but I would suggest we get in touch—. Since I didn't know much about it before, what I would suggest is that we get in touch with Professor Adam Fox, who is the chair of the national allergy group, for his comments before we close it, because he's the authority on it.

I have visited many places, really, in the United Kingdom, and also in Great Ormond Street, where there are children looked after on this, how they come out of these allergies. I think my granddaughter has been on it, and, thank God, she had a nut allergy, she has been looked after and she is without it now. So, it is important that we need to know more about it, because this is a way forward. We won't be knowing in coming days what we'll be eating, as at present, when we know that plastic is running through our blood.

Yes, that's a good point, Altaf.

Thank you very much.

Okay, anybody else like to come in? So, Altaf, you proposed writing to the chair of the Food Standards Agency, was that, for comments regarding it? I couldn't hear that quite so well.

Yes, I can send you the details.

Thank you very much, and then we can close it.

Absolutely. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Right, if we move on now to 3.6, petition P-06-1547, 'Sea bottom trawling is killing our marine wildlife...Stop bulldozing our marine wildlife!' This was submitted by Robert Curtis with 297 signatures. I remember watching the film Ocean, and it was devastating seeing what was happening there and the creation of barren sea beds, with 75 per cent of the catch—life—being discarded. Awful. Rhys, would you like to take us through this?

Yes, thank you, Cadeirydd. This is our second consideration of this important matter, and I think that most of us probably have seen the footage or similar footage to what you've mentioned, and the similar destruction and pointless waste. There has been good engagement from the Welsh Government on this matter. Back in November, there was a positive response from the Cabinet Secretary, who invited the petitioner to take part in the scallop fishing management measures review, and we haven't heard back from the petitioner. We sent that to the petitioner. We haven't heard back from the petitioner—no further comments. So, my suggestion is that we thank the petitioner and close this petition.

Okay. The Cabinet Secretary said that the position in Wales is very different. We have a lot of shellfish in our inshore fisheries. Okay. Moving forward, we'll close the petition. We're all in agreement. Thank you.

That concludes the public business, so I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42—

Sorry, there's a paper to note.

Apologies. I turned the paper over without seeing it.

We have a paper to note, which is on P-06-1307, 'The Welsh Government should commit to the adoption of the maintenance of new housing estates by local authorities'. It's at the end of the pack, a letter there. So, is it okay to note the paper? Thank you. So, that does conclude the public business.

I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? We've got nodding heads. Thank you very much. We'll move into private.