Equality and Social Justice Committee

We're now going to move into into general scrutiny of the Cabinet Secretary's quite extensive portfolio, and, therefore, I wondered if your officials could introduce themselves very briefly, starting with Mr Jones.

Yes, thank you. Ian Jones, I'm deputy director for equality, poverty and children's evidence and support division.

Andrew Charles, deputy director for cohesive communities division.

Bore da. Amelia John, director of communities and social justice.

Claire Germain, deputy director for tackling poverty.

Mike Connolly, deputy director for the community safety division.

And online, I believe we've got Lorna Hall, deputy director for equality and human rights.

And also Riaz Hassan, head of the ARWAP team.

I beg your pardon. I'm so sorry—it's because he's not on my screen. Thank you. Altaf Hussain, you were going to start the questions off.

Thank you, Chair. The question is regarding criminal justice and women's experiences in the criminal justice system. The Welsh Government has implemented only five of the 18 recommendations from the committee's report. What assessment has been made of why the remaining recommendations have not been delivered?

Thank you very much, Altaf. I know, in my evidence paper, in the annex, I have responded to give an update on all of the committee reports, and the women's experiences in the criminal justice system is really important. I did say in my evidence report that, yes, we've got five delivered, and also the other recommendations partially delivered; they're ongoing. But one point I would make, in terms of questions on this issue, which is really important, is that we've been working mostly, in terms of our powers, on our women's justice blueprint, making sure that that is delivered across Wales.

But there have been a lot of changes since 2023, with the general election in 2024 and the changes in justice policy, and making sure that we are adjusting and influencing that has been a key priority. But I would say that our women's justice board for Wales, for example, which is active, is now meeting regularly, in terms of the women's justice board, with the UK Government, chaired by Lord Timpson, who I know has given evidence here. And we continue to ensure that we look to those diversionary policies that are making such a difference to keep women out of custody, out of the criminal justice system. That's key, as well as, obviously, continuing to press for our residential women's centre, for which we've got all the plans in place. I was very pleased to meet with Lord James Timpson last week, where I talked to him about the residential women's centre, I talked to him about the intensive supervision court as well, and asked for progress on both those key issues in terms of ensuring that we did respond not just to your report but to our commitments to women's justice.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Now, despite the Welsh Government's commitments to reduce the number of women entering or returning to custody, the evidence shows the number continues to rise. Does the Welsh Government understand what is driving this trend, and what assessment has been made of why current policies are not resulting in improving outcomes for women?

Well, I would like to comment at this point that we very much value the work that's been done by Dr Rob Jones, and the fact that we have been working very closely with him, looking at and working with him to respond to the fact files he's produced, which actually highlighted—the last fact file, of course, which was last November—the issue of the increasing number of women prisoners in England and Wales. I met with Rob Jones and HM Prison and Probation Service, with Ian Barrow from HMPPS, who is our lead official from HMPPS, and with Ministry of Justice responsibilities, and we actually then moved to having a round-table, because I felt that we needed to look at the fact file and we needed to look at the issues.

I've mentioned the women's justice programme and, of course, it's a blueprint that has been devolved and non-devolved—it's been Welsh Government with UK Government over the period of time. It's about diversion schemes for vulnerable women across all the four police forces in Wales, and also, crucially, engaging with magistrates, sentencers, other key court professionals, meeting with probation, building confidence in community-based sentencing options. And we had all of those represented, including the third sector, at the round‑table that we held earlier on this year. I'm hoping that we can do a report of that round-table. But, again, I raised all these issues with Lord Timpson only last Wednesday.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. In your written response, which confirms ongoing support for the residential women's centre in Swansea and continued engagement with UK Government Ministers, but it does not set out a timeline for when this centre is expected to open. In the absence of a confirmed opening date, how can devolved services be used to strengthen community-based alternatives to custody? What scope is there to enhance devolved provision to mitigate these limitations?

Thank you for that question. The residential women's centre, as I think I've already said, was on my agenda on Wednesday when I met with Lord Timpson, and I'm continually pressing for an update on this, as you are, and I've had questions in the Senedd, which I welcome, because I'm very frustrated about the lack of progress with the residential women's centre. We've got a building; we've got planning permission. The centre is a key objective for the Welsh Government, but it also fits into the UK Government's new approach in terms of reducing—. And I raised this with James Timpson, the damage of short-term sentences, the damage to women in terms of custodial sentences that actually separate them from their children. The centre will allow women to stay closer to home, maintain crucial family ties and provide a therapeutic environment and also help to deal with some trauma-informed experiences that women may have experienced. The all-Wales women in justice board—I've mentioned that—through the women in justice partners, are also very supportive of this. So, I'm grateful for the question, because, again, as I said, I want answers before the end of the sixth Senedd.

Well, good luck on that.

Thank you, Chair.

Sioned Williams.

Just quickly on that, you've referred to the fact that there was a change as a result of the general election last year. You've said that you've raised these subjects with James Timpson. So, what was the problem? Why isn't this happening? What reason did he give? Because we know that women in Wales—. You mentioned the harm this is doing to women in terms of not having places for them to be able to go to other than prison, but, in Wales, we're in a unique situation where we don't have a prison, so, inevitably, the harm is worse for these women who are sent hundreds of miles away. So, I just want to know, simply, what was his response. Why hasn't this happened?

Well, I pressed him on the point, the timing. I also pressed him in terms of are there any issues that we can help to resolve in terms of management of the centre. He did refer to the centre—and I'm sure he perhaps did when he came to give evidence to this committee—in Southampton, the Hope Centre, and I have arranged for a visit to the Hope Centre, because we need to see the difference that's made by it, by having a residential women's centre. That's not a centre that was commissioned by the Government; it's an independent initiative. I can only say that I've pressed for an answer, I've asked the question of why is there delay, I've asked for it to be opened by the end of this Senedd, or at least to have a timeline for opening.

One of the things I haven't mentioned that has been important since the change of government at a UK Government level is that, actually, we have broken through some barriers in terms of data, access to disaggregated data. And I think that it is important to put on record today that that has made a difference, and it actually made a difference to Dr Jones when he did his factfile in November. I think I've probably mentioned that in terms of my evidence to you already, but, as I said, I've met with Lord Timpson, I've put down what we expect here in Wales, and I'm very grateful for the committee's support on this.

We've heard that, Cabinet Secretary, but we haven't heard what his response was. That's what I want to know: what was his response. Why isn't this happening? What did he tell you?

Well, that he's coming back to me as soon as possible on the way forward.

Right. Altaf, have you finished?

Yes. Thank you very much.

Very good. Jane Dodds.

Thank you very much. I just want to carry on with that same point that Sioned raised, if I may. It is difficult for us to understand entirely what the point is of having a Labour Government in Wales and a Labour Government in London if there is no progress being made. This is a very important point. We've been trying to get a centre for women here in Wales for years, and we have a month to go now until this Government in Wales comes to an end. So, what could you do to move this forward urgently, and how are you working together to try and put something in place, because it's difficult for us to understand exactly what could change in this next month?

A timeline is what we need, in the next few weeks, of when the centre will open. It's actually already costing money. It's costing money to the UK Government, so it's absolutely in their interest. I'll just make the quick point again, Chair, that the UK Government is exploring options, alternatives to custody, for women in the criminal justice system. As Sioned has said, women in Wales have to go to HMP Eastwood Park or HMP Styal. We have put in what we can. We fund a Visiting Mum service. We support women at Eastwood Park. But we know that the residential women's centre is the way forward. So, again, this committee, and this appearance today, gives me more strength to my elbow in terms of going straight back to Lord Timpson saying there's a lot of concern and interest in when are you going to get this, begin to get the answer to this. I hope it will be—. I mean, I know Mike is here. I don't think we've got time to say any more. I've said enough. But let's just take it that my frustration was made very clear last Wednesday with Lord Timpson.

Okay. Very good. I'm sure the whole committee would absolutely back you in that frustration. Jane Dodds, would you like to move on to other matters?

Yes, I will move forward, if I may, to another situation that also hasn't changed, truth be told, and that's the situation of young people with speech, language and communication needs. We did a report in 2023 looking at this situation of young people in the youth justice system, and we have heard that not much has changed yet—that is, that across Wales the situation of young people with these needs going into the youth justice system without any support. So, could I ask you just to explain that point, please? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. I did give quite an extensive response in my evidence to the committee on this, on the speech, language and communication needs, particularly in the youth justice system. I think what's important now is that officials—and, of course, this is not in my portfolio, but very much in terms of my engagement with colleagues in the Welsh Government—are exploring options to establish minimum standards and promote best practice so that all youth justice services consistently identify speech, language and communication needs and levels of support.

I think you know, and I've made it very clear, that this is something that we've looked at not just in terms of youth justice, but also looking at it from early years as well, because that has a huge impact on future prospects for children and it's very much linked to the curriculum as well and in terms of initiatives such as Talk With Me and the Curriculum for Wales, as I said in my evidence. But it is something where, of course, this is about very much a preventative approach, but we have reduced the numbers of adults and children waiting in terms of access to NHS speech and language therapy.

Thank you very much. I just have one final question in this area, please. We have also heard that there are fewer people going into the workforce, that is, becoming speech and language therapists. So, there are great barriers or frustrations, aren't there? On the one hand, we want to see this being implemented within the youth justice system, but there are fewer people who can do this. So, what is being done to ensure that there are more people being trained in this area, please? Thank you.

Well, thank you, Jane. Of course, just looking at the numbers, there are 800 registered speech and language therapists in Wales. It is difficult there in terms of prioritising their role. I've mentioned early years, Flying Start—crucially important. And we're trying to reduce waiting times for speech and language therapies. I've said there is a reduction in terms of the numbers waiting, particularly for adults and children. But I think this is where—. When I've met with speech and language therapists working in the youth justice system, it's something that is specialist but is very rewarding, because you're working with young people in a preventative, diversionary way. We can't mandate embedding a speech and language therapist into youth justice teams, but some of them are—the youth justice services are funding speech and language therapists. So, I think your question about trying to get more numbers into training, it's really about trying to ensure that there are these openings for them to work, particularly in relation to youth justice, as well as early years.

There are some important training opportunities like The Box, which is college of speech and language therapist training to identify communication issues with young people. We work closely also with the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales in terms of addressing this issue.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Okay. Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much. I was going to ask about prison, probation and policing. So, the first question I was going to ask was about probation, and so I wondered if the memorandum of understanding has been finalised. And what are its actual implications?

That was also on my agenda with Lord Timpson last week, when I met him, the MOU for probation. Because I visited greater Manchester, when we saw that this was a route-map, I would say, a route, to devolution of probation in Wales, and we felt the MOU approach was really tried and tested, and it is about local control, local delivery and local flexibility. So, we're very keen to press this. Now, what we have done is we've got the Wales Centre for Public Policy to look at some research on how we could craft that MOU. That's just recently been published. I think one good point is that HMPPS has seconded someone to work with us on crafting the MOU. She's been in post for quite a few weeks now, and I've met with her and justice unions, who are very supportive of this first step, and also the Wales probation development group. So, I anticipate the work is going to proceed at pace. Again, I've said I'd like to see this before the end of this sixth Senedd. That's what I'm aiming for.

And you see this as a first step towards the eventual delegation of budgets and management and the wider policy.

Well, I see this as us taking control, in the way that greater Manchester has, of the delivery of probation services, in partnership with local government in Wales. I think we've just got to look at every step that we can take. I feel that we've got—. We've always said we've got to take it step by step, and the commitment from the UK Government was to explore the devolution of youth justice and probation. But I think we've given a pathway to this, and I hope we'll see the outcome of what this will mean, as I said, before the end of this sixth Senedd.

Sioned Williams.

Thank you very much. I just want to ask one quick question regarding that MOU. The House of Commons Library has said that the MOU doesn't have any sort of legal power, and that the UK Government would have the right to pull out of it at any time. So, how do you feel that you can use the MOU in a meaningful manner, considering that that is the case?

That's a really important point. It is a non-statutory agreement. I've seen the MOU that was signed between Greater Manchester and the Ministry of Justice, and the same question could be asked of Greater Manchester and the Deputy Mayor, Kate Green, who takes the lead. But the delivery is the obvious answer to that. The delivery has improved of probation services in Greater Manchester, and that's what we would anticipate. This is power for a purpose, after all. This is about actually giving us all the devolved services relevant to probation.

The Wales probation development group consists of people who have been in the service, who want to create a Welsh probation service that reflects what they feel are the principles of a good probation service, and academically they're engaged as well as professionally. So, I think it has to be a step that we grasp, take it forward and I think it'll deliver the goods. Obviously that comes through inspection, for example, in terms of one way of looking at it, but on outcomes for those who receive the services, certainly the evaluation in Manchester has shown the difference. So, I would see that in Wales too.

In terms of ensuring that co-operation, what is the process? Because it doesn't have a statutory footing, what is the process in order to be able to raise a dispute if you don't feel that the agreement has been respected?

The MOU provides the basis of that agreement in terms of delivery. As I said, we've got a secondee from the UK Government, from HM Prison and Probation Service, who is working—. Her job is to craft this MOU. I wish I could be here to see that MOU come into force, what we will get. I know from the work that she's doing—. We haven't got much time, Mike, but if you wanted to just reassure the committee that this is based on good evidence from Greater Manchester and the commitment from the UK Government to make this work. We wouldn't have had a secondment if they didn't want it to come to Wales.

Yes, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I can just say that at an official's working level it is progressing really well in terms of working through the MOU and the detail of the MOU. As the Cabinet Secretary said, looking at what's happening in Greater Manchester, and the practice there, is really encouraging too. In response to the question, that's the level of detail that we're now working through with partners to understand the ability to raise concerns and issues, so we expect more information shortly.

Diolch.

Very good. Did you have any further questions?

[Inaudible.]—which are the committee's safety concerns about the expansion of Parc prison. I believe you have raised this with the UK Government. Do you feel that the UK Government would be able to respond to this and is there a possibility of stopping this expansion while these safety issues are considered?

Thank you for that question. This was also on the agenda for my meeting with Lord Timpson last week. I took the opportunity to raise the committee's concerns because obviously I knew you'd had that look at this, and particularly with the work that Dr Rob Jones had done. So, I sought an update on what was happening in terms of the expansion and emphasised that this has been raised regularly in the Senedd, and not just with the committee as well. It was a constructive discussion. It is out of our powers, obviously, in terms of any more influence except to raise these issues at inter-governmental level.

I said that any expansion must be accompanied by safeguards that improve safety outcomes, and I also made the point that we have devolved responsibility for education and health and, of course, resettlement as well, and that we had to make sure that we have the funding to enable us to meet the additional needs if the expansion goes ahead.

I was reassured that there'd been an interim review of HMP Parc in January this year, because I said, 'Look, the concerns about HMP Parc have been consistent over the in-flow of drugs, et cetera', and the interim review in January did confirm that progress was being made stopping the in-flow of drugs. I asked, for example, about the windows. As people will know, this is something that has been an issue in terms of the changes to stop drugs coming into Parc.

But I made it absolutely clear that we were concerned about it, the committee's been concerned about it, and we have to make sure that we get the support for health, social care and education in terms of the support that, with an expansion, that prison would need.

Thank you. I've got one last question, if that's okay. The police and crime commissioners will be abolished by 2028 and, obviously, there'll be a new system. Have you been able to have any discussions yet about what that new system might be and what models are being looked at in Wales?

There have been extensive discussions since the announcement, and obviously questions to me in the Senedd about this, and also extensive discussions with the PCCs themselves. And, in fact, there are meetings ongoing, as we speak, and we have a policing partnership board on Thursday. My discussions have been with the policing Minister. And if I could just say that we have policy principles that we've agreed in terms of the way forward, but I've made it clear that we must safeguard the integrity of devolved systems and frameworks, which provide the key elements of policing in Wales, and that includes local government. Local government has been very involved in the discussions as well, and we have been clear, as Welsh Ministers, that new governance arrangements should be a devolutionary process. Because we are in a different situation from England and we need to ensure that what comes out of this with the police reform White Paper is that we have something that, in Wales, shows the role that Welsh Government and local government can play in terms of democratic accountability, including a proper role for Welsh Ministers, for the Senedd and local authorities. So, I think this will influence not just the next Government, but also the next Senedd in terms of committees, as well as ministerial posts, et cetera.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you. I want to move us on to questions about anti-racist Wales, but I just want to start with the entrenched racial disproportionality that is endemic in the criminal justice system, as highlighted by Rob Jones. I just wondered if there's anything that we can do about this, given that we do not, at the moment, have jurisdiction over criminal justice and this broken system, in my view.

Well, we were very pleased and engaged with the criminal justice partners when they developed the 'Criminal Justice Anti-Racism Action Plan for Wales'. It's jointly led by criminal justice partners, not devolved, alongside and including the Welsh Government. Also, we worked with justice partners including policing in Wales, HM Courts and Tribunals Service and HMPPS when they developed this. I think the plan does show what we can achieve when we work together to tackle racism, but it's embedded racism. Criminal justice isn't devolved, so we've got to use our influence and our relationships and shared goals with partners to tackle racism, and also realise an anti-racist criminal justice system in Wales. Can I say, again, that I acknowledge the work that Rob Jones has done in terms of his fact file in terms of disproportionality? We do have a justice chapter in our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and that came from the fact that it was co-produced with black, Asian and minority ethnic people who wanted that justice system in the plan.

Thank you. Just moving on to tackling racism more generally, your refreshed plan was published just over a year ago, which you describe as having strong foundations for systemic change. As we approach four years since the publication of the plan, what tangible impact do you think it's had on the lives of people from ethnic minority backgrounds?

Well, delivery of this plan has to be a cross-Government commitment. It was refreshed, as you say, in November 2024, and that was about ensuring that the goals and actions in the plan make a measurable and tangible impact on the lives of ethnic minority people. I think that there are some important developments that I could just very quickly reference. In terms of leadership, statistics for public appointments show a positive trend: 15 per cent of applicants and 19 per cent of appointees for public appointments came from black, Asian, minority ethnic people in the latest statistics.

Of course, we have impact in schools, which I think is really important, because we made Wales the first country to make it mandatory to teach the histories, contributions and experiences of black, Asian, ethnic minority people. All eight universities have been awarded the advanced higher education race equality charter bronze award. This is the only nation where that has happened.

We've got 28 local and independent Welsh museums receiving support for decolonising their collections through culture, heritage and sport. Health and social care: the first social care workforce race equality standard. We're increasing the numbers of black, Asian, minority ethnic people sitting on boards of Welsh registered social landlords. There has been £60,000 funding for the Welsh Local Government Association to deliver national anti-racism leadership training. Also, employability and skills: our employability support programme focused on ethnic diversity and inclusion. Entrepreneurship: again, an increased number of clients supported through Business Wales. Nation of sanctuary: the migrant integration framework.

Crime and justice: I think I haven't mentioned, and I'm sure you'll recognise that one of the first things we did when we published the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' post pandemic was to set up a race disparity unit. In fact, Ian is here from that unit as part of the equality evidence unit.

I think the anti-racism training from Diversity and Anti-Racist Professional Learning and Cwlwm partners has made a big difference in childcare settings. We've got an impact measurement framework. What we need to be able to show is actually what does this mean. So, an impact measurement framework is going to be published on 11 March to measure progress across Welsh Government and the wider public sector, and a dashboard as well. In fact, the dashboard has already been published, hasn't it?

The tracker.

The tracker of the dashboard. And, for example, there's been evaluation of the culture, heritage and sports £5 million grant. So, I'm giving you some examples, because it's important to put that on the record—

Yes. Lots of good work has been done, and, obviously, the international situation doesn't help us. But could I just ask Mr Jones about the dashboard? The Cabinet Secretary's written evidence refers to a prototype dashboard to be used by the external accountability group. I wondered if you could explain why we haven't got an embedded system, given that we've been talking about this for about four years now.

Yes, certainly. The ARWAP dashboard, the prototype dashboard, was first trialled last summer with the external advisory group. Since then, the dashboard has been presented and tested with the sub-groups for ArWAP as well to test it further, looking at the data sources, et cetera—

So, what's going to be published on 11 March based on an analysis of—

That's slightly different. On 11 March, we're publishing the impact measurement framework. The dashboard then will be a visualisation of the publicly available data. It has been challenging and complex, because we're talking about over 70 indicators, looking at trends over time to get everything in one place, but we think we've got an answer for that now. We've got quite rigorous accessibility standards for presenting and publishing statistical outputs—

Do you think it was too complicated or too challenging to have 70 indicators?

I think it has been challenging and it has been complex, but I think we've got an answer now and we will be delivering something soon on that.

Soon? Before the—

Probably after the election, but we would be happy to offer a technical briefing or a summary for the committee if that would be helpful.

Thank you for the offer.

Could I just bring Amelia in?

Just to explain a bit about it, I know the external accountability group were impressed with it. It's very interactive, and I think that's the issue: making sure that people with screen readers and assistive technology can absolutely access it. But it's a really good tool in terms of, as I say, being very intuitive and interactive.

At the end of the day, the important thing is is it accurately tracking where we're making progress and where we're not making progress, so that we can focus on the things that need most attention. Would you say that that is what it's going to do?

That's the purpose of it, and to see whether the interventions that we make are actually successful. If they're not, we can then look at why. But that's the absolute purpose of it, and to have that transparently laid out.

When we did our inquiry, some stakeholders said they lacked clarity on what their role was. What progress do you think has been made in ensuring that everybody knows exactly what role they're expected to play?

That is really important. There are a number of stakeholders, of course—stakeholders across the whole of the Welsh Government, all the sectors. I do hope the committee will acknowledge the fact that we've got this independent external advisory group. It is co‑chaired by Professor Ogbonna and the Permanent Secretary, but it does bring in experts from all of the fields.

But also, since the start of our journey on seeking to move towards Wales being an anti‑racist nation, we've recognised there are lots more challenges in terms of intersectionality, for example. Recently, I was very pleased to meet with some survivors of domestic abuse, who also saw that there is some intersectionality between race and violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. One of the things that again goes into our work on VAWDASV is the fact that we're looking more at working with survivors as well as people with lived experience, to make sure stakeholders do feel that they know what their roles are.

We are funding also Race Council Cymru, Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales and Race Equality First. We're funding them—key race organisations, you all know them—to help us deliver targeted work in terms of the 'Anti‑racist Wales Action Plan'. EYST continues to do great work with community and youth engagement; Race Council Cymru on the UN convention on the elimination of racial discrimination—they've got a conference in a couple of weeks’ time—but also their work with Windrush elders; and Black History Wales and Race Equality First are doing really important work in terms of access to anti‑racist casework and legal advocacy.

We've also got a newsletter, a stakeholder bulletin. Riaz is there on screen, very much head of the ArWAP team, engaging, making sure that we get information out every month to 2,000 stakeholders. There's one example: we've got a convener in north Wales who's been working with Conwy council in local schools on a project called, 'What's it got to do with me?' That's connecting the principles of our ArWAP with officers in local government and providing a model that could be reflected across Wales. We've got webinars, and I mentioned training earlier on anti-racism for local government. Really, yes, it's the interaction. I hope that the dashboard—. I know that you're doing a technical briefing for the committee on Welsh benefits; I don't know whether you'd like to have one on the dashboard, because it's got to be transparent. There's no question about it.

Thank you. The other thing where we'd love a bit more transparency is on the budget for the action plan. We have asked you for that information, because we think that that would enable ethnic minorities to be reassured that sufficient resources were being put in to this complex set of goals. So, I just wondered if there's anything you can tell us about—. I appreciate that this is cross-Government, obviously, but has nobody added up what resources we're putting into this that a new Government of a different stripe might simply just eliminate?

Well, as you say, it's cross-Government, and just in terms of the budget that we recently passed, hopefully there was some scrutiny and questioning from committees about their specific areas of responsibility in terms of cross-Government funding. I know that, in my report to you on evidence, I did attach the technical document, which is quite a weighty document—apologies—but actually, you can track through that the funding.

I just wanted to give you a couple of examples in terms of funding. One is education. We've given £160 million to local authorities to support action to address equity in education, and you will have heard the Cabinet Secretary for Education talking about support for DARPL, the diversity and anti-racism professional learning team. I know that the funding for DARPL is absolutely essential into next year. There's the £5 million for culture and heritage, I've already mentioned all the local schemes.

Something that does appear in this technical document—. I was particularly scrutinising areas that may not get public attention. But we have recognised that there's a real issue about immigration legal advice capacity gaps. We now have funded the immigration legal advice providers, and that's through my budget, quite apart from the many other streams of funding. So, I hope that, again, that does give you some indication—. But I think our ArWAP progress update tracker, published last month, will also give you some indication of where this is going.

In terms of the team, we've got a whole team headed by Riaz. We've got more conveners. I've just mentioned the north Wales convener and the work that she's doing. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' has to permeate everything we do. I have to say that Race Alliance Wales, which recently brought organisations together, and I hope you've all met them—. One of their key—. They've only got six points for the manifestos, and I will say this, they say accelerate and implement the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. For me, this is absolutely critical as we go from the end of this sixth Senedd into the next seventh Senedd and a new Government.

We must have a commitment from all political parties to implement the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It is making a difference to people's lives, it's embedded in every part of this Welsh Government. I'm absolutely passionate about this, and I hope that the committee will keep that backing as we go forward into the last few weeks of this Senedd.

Thank you. I'm sure that it'll work its way into our legacy report. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. Cabinet Secretary, I'm going to be asking about racism and hate crime. Why have racial hate crimes increased, despite the Welsh Government's anti-racist Wales goal, and what is the new plan to actually make things better?

It is disheartening to us all who believe in hope, not hate, in Wales that we have this 5 per cent increase in recorded hate crime. We actually had two annual decreases. Chair, you've mentioned the global situation, but we also have to recognise that the situation we have in terms of misinformation, disinformation, discord, division and divisive politics has made a huge impact on people's lives. When I meet with people, the Wales race forum, as Minister, and I'm sure as Members do, we recognise the rise in racism and that we need to counter that.

I just wanted to say a couple of things, because this also links very much to community cohesion, I would say. We have to correct the record. We have a stakeholder misinformation toolkit. It's helping community leaders, I know, to structure conversations with people who have encountered potential misinformation. We also—

Could you give us a specific example, without pinpointing a community that doesn't want to be targeted, just as to how that works?

It's the misinformation toolkit. Actually, what I wanted to do—. We've got a practical guide to protect organisations from hate and harassment. I'd like to share this with the committee. It's gone to all third sector organisations, because we know, for example—. I can give you one example, the Welsh Refugee Council, because of their support for the nation of sanctuary. We fund the Welsh Refugee Council, and I'm proud to fund them, and I will continue again to call on all political parties to support not only funding the Welsh Refugee Council, but the nation of sanctuary.

This is about not just the political situation; this is protecting organisations, protecting staff, protecting people in buildings. We know what's happened over the past year or two. So, we've got a whole range of support systems for organisations. This is available for the third sector, but if the committee would like to see this—. But we also have our fact file through our communications division, where we pick up misinformation and put the record straight. Obviously, many of us have been subject to misinformation, misleading information, disinformation, and the fact file can put the record straight.

But leading from the question that you have asked, Altaf, I think some of the £5 million of grants to heritage and to museums has been really transformational. Going to visit Chepstow Museum and seeing some of the colonial history and understanding our responsibilities in Wales towards the history, and then bringing us right up, when we went to the opening of an exhibition that we funded, to be greeted by Ukrainian refugees who had come and found a welcome here in Wales, and as part of the museum and the event, their engagement—. We've seen this in museums across Wales: education is absolutely crucial, and leadership.

If you look at the technical document, there's a whole chapter on leadership. If we don't have leadership in anti-racism at every single level—and that includes every citizen, but it's the one Welsh public sector—we will not make that difference. So, leadership in anti-racism. We want to make Wales the beacon nation for racial equality. So, we've got to have that commitment. And it does impact on community cohesion. Our expert group is about to publish its findings on community cohesion, so hopefully that will help.

We note your commitment on this subject. Was there anything else you wanted to ask, Altaf?

I want to ask about the community cohesion response framework. You have said also in your written statement, which supports more accurate identification and assessment of tensions and hate. Could you tell us more about this framework and what impact it will have on combating hate and racism?

Yes, thank you for that, because this is all developing very—. Well, not developing fast, in the sense that we have been funding community cohesion co-ordinators for a number of years. And you will welcome, I know, the fact that we're funding them for a three-year period up until 2029. Because one of the crucial things about tackling racism and promoting hope not hate and identifying a strong infrastructure on community cohesion is that you can't have one-off funding. You can't have a bit of funding that's going to finish at the end of March. This has got to be long-term funding to safeguard it. Whichever Government is in power after May, this money is safeguarded so no-one can disentangle it.

In terms of the community cohesion framework, this is something about how we can help the community cohesion co-ordinators identify community tensions in their areas. I chaired a meeting—the last meeting of this Government—of the faith communities forum on Thursday, with a lot of colleagues here. But people of all faiths who came to that faith communities forum were talking about all the things we're talking about now, and what life is like for people and communities and faith groups and places of worship in terms of community cohesion. So, it is something, the framework, that is directly coming, partly, out of the Southport disorder back in 2024, and it's making sure there are closer connections. All of our community cohesion co-ordinators are located in local authorities. I've mentioned the fact check—it’s called ‘For the Record’—to make sure that they can also share misinformation, disinformation. And it's making sure that the whole of Welsh Government is engaged in this.

I think, in terms of the community cohesion developments, the work that's being done with the expert group, which is about to publish, I think—. Is it in the next few weeks?

They're meeting on 19 March.

They're meeting on 19 March, the group that was set up because of this committee. It's also looking at the framework, isn't it, Andrew?

Yes. So, the framework was, essentially, a Government response to identify the lessons from our response to the disorder in the summer of 2024. So, it's mainly to look at how we improve our communication across Government, but also our relationship and our communication with stakeholders that we brought together quite quickly after that. So, we're still developing it, but it's really mainly to help us, internally, identify those tensions and respond to them as quickly and efficiently as we can.

And is there quite a big involvement of the local population, local communities, in this?

Certainly through the community cohesion co-ordinators at local level. I'm sure you can meet your local community cohesion co-ordinator. It's useful to do so, to find out what's on their agenda. Clearly, there have been some areas of real tension where we've responded over the past couple of years—for different reasons, of course, in terms of the causes of those tensions. Also policing colleagues as well as community cohesion colleagues. Giving them status and influence is really important in terms of the role of a community cohesion co-ordinator. So, we've strengthened all of that, haven't we, in terms of looking at the framework.

When there was an audit of the disorder in 2024, in the summer, externally—I think you might have got this information—there was a recognition that the community cohesion co-ordinators were a strength in Wales.

Yes, absolutely. It'd be useful if you could send us a list of all the different community cohesion co-ordinators, because then that would give them a profile—with their e-mail addresses; we could then make contact with them. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

I think we need to move on, so we're now moving on to gender-based violence. Jane Dodds, would you like to come in, please?

Thank you very much. I'm aware of the time as well. Could I just ask you—? First of all, if we look at the reports that we've done in the past, we did one report in 2022 looking at migrant women and the experiences that they had of domestic violence. We heard evidence from every one of the police forces in Wales; they all said that they had referred domestic violence victims to the immigration services. That is a terrible situation. I hope that you would agree with that. What are you doing to ensure that that doesn't happen?

Well, that is a terrible situation, which I was not aware of until you raised that with me today. I certainly want to find out—and Mike Connolly will do this for me—from the police forces. I think the only thing I would say is that there is some prospect, because obviously this is something that's come up policy wise—. There is a prospect with the UK Government's ‘Freedom from violence and abuse: a cross-government strategy to build a safer society for women and girls’. That's the full title of their of their strategy, and my understanding is that they recently announced that they'll introduce a requirement for police to seek a domestic abuse victim’s consent before sharing their information with immigration enforcement. Because survivors need to be able to report crimes without fear, and we need to ensure that trust and access to justice is clear. So, again, I'm going to raise this this question with our policing colleagues, but also with the UK Government, and I'll be meeting and engaging with Ministers Jess Phillips and Alex Davies-Jones on the new strategy. But I think this is something where we've got more support for investing in our support for migrant victim schemes, so it is coming together. I've mentioned the development of support that we've got now from the Home Office in my evidence paper.

Thank you very much, and could I move on, please, to talk about the report that we published on preventing gender-based violence, which was three years ago—time has moved on very swiftly? Could I ask you just to take a step back and ask you what in your view has changed in the system as a whole since that report, please?

Thank you. That, again, was a very important report from the committee. I think I've also mentioned, again in my evidence report, the ways in which we've responded to recommendations. I think I’ll turn to Ian again in terms of the fact that we've got an equality, race and disability evidence unit to improve evidence about individuals with protected or associated characteristics. That was one of the recommendations from the committee in terms of understanding the level and types of inequalities across Wales. Also, we are publishing an annual progress update on the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence blueprint, sharing information on the blueprint through regular briefing. The mental health and well-being strategy was published, of course, last year, with a focus on early access, early intervention. Also, I think, importantly, to say that we fund the Ar Trac project through the third sector social services grant, which supports children and young people aged five to 16 who've witnessed or experienced domestic abuse. Recommendation 4—that was a crucial recommendation.

So, we're funding—continuing to fund—specialist VAWDASV services directly, regional VAWDASV teams, and we wrote at the end of Easter term in 2024 to remind schools of their mandatory duty to report cases or suspected cases of female genital mutilation, and also our officials have met with the safeguarding education group. We've also got our keeping safe online youth group. That's something that has now become much more a feature, unfortunately, of VAWDASV. We've got the women's health plan, of course, which actually looks also at issues around VAWDASV for health care services for women. And we, of course, have got a workstream on violence against women in the workplace, and we've had a number of conferences on that—national conferences—looking at the pervasive impact of workplace sexual harassment, and over 100 public sector bodies across Wales attended.

I think two final things I'd like to say: you will be aware of the Sound campaign and we now have got a documentary called Sound Lad. It's reached 95 per cent of men and boys across Wales between 18 and 35. Your recommendation was really important—recommendation 10—on that. It's really important, using celebrities and influencers. And also the tackling perpetration workstream has done a widespread survey on what perpetrator interventions are available and most effective. So, that's just a quick run-through—updates, if you like—on the issues that you raised, in terms of the public health approach to gender-based violence.

Thank you very much. I wanted to touch on children and young people's services. So, you have explained that a little bit there. Could I just return to another topic, if that's okay? We've received a letter, and I'll turn to English now, from the Magistrates' Association.

So, we've had a letter from the Magistrates' Association outlining that the guidance has actually led to an increase in the trend of women who are on remand and who are receiving short sentences. This does tie into the women's centre, but could you just touch on that? It's really concerning that we're seeing, actually, more women are being placed on remand and more receiving short sentences. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, I'm extremely concerned about that letter—obviously, I haven't had a letter of that kind, but I don't know, Mike, if you're aware of this—because that is entirely the wrong direction, as we've already discussed, in terms of wanting to move away from short-term sentences. And I can't understand it anyway, because the Magistrates' Association knows our views about the negative impact of short sentences on women and children. So, Mike, are you aware of this?

I'm not aware of the letter, Cabinet Secretary, but just to mention to the committee that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned earlier the women in justice board at the UK level. One of their stated objectives is to reduce the number of women in the custody system; similarly with the sentencing Act that's currently being developed at the moment. So, although they don't directly address the question that was asked, they are two ongoing developments that should start to show through over time.

But I think a worrying point is if they're saying that our guidance in terms of children and young people is—. Well, you can, obviously, share this letter with us.

Well, we're about to publish it after this meeting, so you'll be able to see it.

We'll pick that up immediately, because, as I said, we spent time through our women's justice blueprint in Wales engaging with magistrates and sentencers, so we will want to try and engage with them. In fact, the Magistrates' Association attended our roundtable and were very sympathetic to the evidence that we were giving and Rob Jones was giving, and very supportive of needing to make those changes. So, let's try and pick that up, Chair, in terms of what's happening.

Yes, okay. Okay, Jane, can you—?

Thanks, Chair. I'll end there, because there isn't enough time. It's very important.

All right. Julie Morgan.

I'll just ask one more question about children in this situation, because the committee did call for urgent fast-tracked specialist therapeutic support for children who are either experiencing or witnessing gender-based violence. Have you been able to follow that through?

Yes. This is something where we need to ensure that services are being commissioned at local and regional levels to meet the needs of children and young people. What we're doing now is we're going to undertake a national mapping exercise of specialist services and pathways for children and young people, look at what's available. I have mentioned Ar Trac. I'm not sure if the committee's aware of that. I want to reassure the committee that the funding for 2026-27 for Ar Trac is in place, and I've mentioned the fact that it does support five to 16 year-olds and it's through the third sector organisations, but it's for those children who've experienced or witnessed domestic abuse and this having an impact on their lives and family and their relationships. But the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 does place a duty on local authorities and local health boards to plan their strategies and their funding based on the needs of children and young people, so it's timely to have a mapping exercise of those services.

Thank you, Chair. That's all.

Thank you. Very good. We'll now move on to child poverty, and Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair. You've mentioned, in reporting back on your child poverty strategy just before Christmas, that you have spent £7 billion on putting money back in families' pockets, but, of course, child poverty rates in Wales continue to rise. So, how would you assess the Welsh Government's performance in terms of tackling child poverty over the sixth Senedd? What have been the main successes and what are the main failures of your approach in trying to tackle this problem? And what objectives, in terms of the strategy, have seen the least progress, and why?

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. Of course, you know that we have powers, and we don't have all the powers, to tackle child poverty and there are far too many children living in poverty, and that's why we launched our child poverty strategy for Wales, which has long-term ambitions to tackle child poverty and also mitigate the worst impacts of child poverty in Wales. It very much links to our well-being of future generations, doesn't it, our objective to have a more equal Wales. And it's very interesting, looking at all the evidence papers, particularly from the Bevan Foundation and Policy in Practice, about—. I mean, even they say that there isn't one single route, one lever of the levers that we've got in Wales that could make the change. But actually getting people into work is crucial, and well-paid work. It's always been a barrier, in terms of employment issues for women and girls. So, that's where I go back to some of the issues we discussed about the employability support group in terms of having our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It's also about childcare and ensuring that we have the best possible options for children, as well as access to employment.

So, one of the main objectives—and it came through the UK child poverty strategy—was to put money into people's pockets. Obviously, wages are the best way to do that—decent pay—but also to ensure that people have got the benefits they're entitled to. The £7 billion is a large amount of money—we're tackling fuel poverty, we're tackling food poverty to tackle child poverty. But access to the single advice fund, I think, is crucial, because that's unlocked over £200 million of unclaimed benefits. Our discretionary assistance fund—and I know this committee has always supported this at budget times—provides vital help in times of crisis. But a game-changer, no question, has been the universal free school meals for every primary school child, with 50 million meals served since 2022, and raising the education maintenance allowance to £40 a week. But I feel that one of the success stories that needs to be taken forward by the next Government is the Welsh benefits charter. All 22 local authorities are engaging in that and having a pathway to ensure that people do not have to claim more than once for the school essentials grant, free school meals and the council tax reduction scheme. I think the fact is that our Welsh benefits charter, our 'Claim what's yours' and our single advice fund are all making a huge difference to people's lives, and also our young person's guarantee. It's very cross-Government, of course, in terms of tackling child poverty. I'm very pleased that our baby bundles have now been starting to be delivered since February. Period dignity grants, enabling families to access period products free, has made a huge difference.

Thank you. You have listed a number of things there but, clearly, the rate isn't moving and it looks as if it's going to be increasing. So, what would you say, in terms of those levers, are the main barriers you've seen in terms of evaluating your child poverty strategy so far? Are they things that need to be changed in terms of your powers, or are the main barriers to changing those rates of child poverty powers that lie in Westminster?

I think I've mentioned the aspects of our cross-Government child poverty strategy that I believe are doing good and need to be retained and supported in terms of getting money, via entitlements, into people's pockets—'Claim what's yours'. We need to continue to do what we're doing in terms of that and also the emergency support through the discretionary assistance fund, but also going back to our earlier discussions about food, there's no question—and tackling fuel poverty. I've mentioned the fact there are two other UK Government policy areas that I've raised: social tariffs and local housing allowance.

One of the things that I do want to say in terms of tackling child poverty is: how do we monitor the delivery of our plan? I published my progress report, which included not just progress on many of the areas I've mentioned, but also the monitoring framework to provide a population-level assessment for the combined impact of our programmes, and seeing what evidence there is of improving outcomes, but also that policy progress report, and I've mentioned the lived experience report.

The other thing that we've done, which I think has been very valuable—I've mentioned it already—is the child poverty innovation grants, and we've got a child poverty community of practice. It's very interesting, because often you meet some of the same people—if you meet local food partnerships, there are people there who are also involved in tackling child poverty, and the child poverty community of practice is very powerful. And let's also recognise that this is a 10-year strategy, and it's not going to be changed overnight. There are factors right out of our control. They are global, let alone UK Government wide.

Thank you. We're running out of time, so I just want to ask you one final question on this. Your paper notes that there has been engagement on the Scottish child payment and that this has given you an understanding of the potential benefits and challenges of delivering a similar payment in Wales, and we know that research shows that this is one of the most effective measures in terms of decreasing child poverty rates in Scotland, which is the only place in the UK to do so. Can you provide us, therefore, with an update on that, and what do you see as the main advantages of developing such a payment?

Yes. You'll know that we have been looking into this, but we don't have the same powers as the Scottish Government. I've said a lot about increasing incomes, so there's no question that the more we can increase incomes, the better. And we have been liaising with the Scottish Government about this to see what legislatively, as well as fiscally—because it's in terms of funding—could be, and what the implications for us are. But we do not have the same legislative competence to legislate for an equivalent scheme in Scotland. That's absolutely clear. It has devolved social security powers, which have enabled the Scottish Government to deliver the Scottish child payment.

Have you attempted to gain those powers at all?

One of the issues we've got is in terms of looking at what this could mean for Wales. We have already, many times in the past, asked for the devolution of the administration of social security powers to Wales. And also, because of the powers that have been developed and afforded to Scotland—for example, they've got Social Security Scotland—they've got an infrastructure, haven't they, which enables them. We don't have such a delivery infrastructure in Wales. So, we're a long way off—even if we had the powers—being able to establish a new benefit delivery system. But this is something, again, which we haven't closed the door on, have we? We've been looking at it in every respect and engaging with the—. In fact, I think it was only last week, officials met—I'm not sure if it was you, Claire—with Scottish Government officials.

Yes, the team met with them last week as part of ongoing engagement.

Okay. Jane Dodds is very keen to come in, and I've got two supplementaries as well. Jane.

Thank you very much. I just have one question. You mentioned there the powers that Wales has in comparison with Scotland, as an example, but we hear time and time again from charities across Wales that the scale or the rate of child poverty is at a standstill. Citizens Advice is the most recent, just last month, to say this, in that, time and again, they see children coming in with their families and children living in terrible situations. One of the things that you do have, and we put this in a report, is to provide more childcare services to families. So, what's your response to that, please? We just provide childcare to children at the age of two, but that isn't full-time childcare. You can do that. What's your response to that, please?

Okay. I think that the Cabinet Secretary has got the question.

Yes. I mentioned earlier on that we recognise that childcare is a huge issue for us, a policy issue for us, in terms of enabling women, particularly—parents—to get back into work and to be in work and be able to work to further their careers and prospects and also earn a decent wage as well. So, yes, in terms of the need to look at the ways in which we can invest in childcare—further invest in childcare—it's a key responsibility of the Government. We're very proud of our childcare offer and the fact that we're rolling out Flying Start, and rolling it out to all two-year-olds will be a huge step forward in terms of childcare, but also recognising that that's not just for particular cohorts of eligible parents, it's going to be universal, which will make a huge difference in terms of access to childcare and, indeed, also to family-friendly policies. So, that's also crucial for employers as well, to take that on board, as well as, when possible financially, the extension of childcare provision.

Thank you. I just want to go back briefly to the report we did on the situation of migrant women who are suffering violence. After our report was published in 2022, you issued guidance to all local authorities to implement a local no recourse to public funds pathway, but the Bevan Foundation looked at this in February 2024 and found that no local authority had implemented the NRPF, the no recourse to public funds pathway. I just wondered what action, if any, the Welsh Government was able to take to remind them of their duties.

That covers a whole range of access to public services including, in schools, free school meals, and I know that this is something that has been raised by the Cabinet Secretary for Education. And I've given in my evidence report what we're doing particularly in relation to migrant victims—

Absolutely, it's just that it's a very specific thing.

But in terms of local government, I'm not sure whether an update on that report from the Bevan Foundation is available, but clearly this is something where we can support our scheme particularly for those caught up in terms of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, but no recourse to public funds affects everyone and every child, not just those who are victims of gender-based violence. So, that is something that it would be useful to ask the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government about as well. But I certainly would wish to see local authorities reach out beyond any discretionary responsibilities to meet the needs of those.

This, for me, is part of the way that we integrate. Part of the nation of sanctuary is to ensure that people should be supported who have no recourse to public funds, to enable them and support them in their time of need.

Thank you. My second question is also around local authorities. There's the excellent work you've been doing on the Welsh benefits charter to prevent people having to tell their stories 65 times, and 12 local authorities have engaged the Policy in Practice methodology for identifying people who are not claiming what they're entitled to. I wondered if you had any plans to publish the 10 local authorities who are not engaged at this stage, so that the next Government will be able to develop a strategy specific to them.

Well, we've got all authorities committed to the Welsh benefits charter, all 22, and all have committed to phase 1, which was this, as I've mentioned—

Some of them are missing out on a lot of money.

Well, the thing is, the Policy in Practice was a pilot, and we approached local authorities, and we funded them. We gave—. It was £0.5 million, in fact, we've spent. And 12 authorities agreed to become part of that pilot. So, it wasn't a question of people saying, 'No, we wouldn't.' Some other authorities had already engaged with Policy in Practice, so that we were working alongside them. I'll bring Claire in, because I know she wants to make a point, but can I just say that those who did engage have delivered 70 targeted benefit take-up campaigns, reaching more than 23,000 households, and as a result, 1,100 households have successfully claimed additional benefits, receiving a total of £3.3 million in extra income? That was using this data analytical tool that Policy in Practice has developed, so it means you can go straight—. You know that I've also got this other £100 payment to disabled people who get council tax reduction scheme. That's been paid straight into people's accounts. They don't even have to apply for it. That's the way forward for the Welsh benefits charter. But if you want to just say anything else on the pilot.

Yes. Just to reassure you that we have the particular pilot around data analysis, which 12 local authorities have signed up for, but we are sharing the learning from that with all local authorities. But alongside that, the wider Welsh benefits streamlining work has all 22 local authorities engaged. They've all got a senior responsible officer, they're all part of that work, and we have separately put in money via that route to local authorities to help build their capacity. So, we've got the £0.5 million for the pilot, but we've also put in another £0.5 million for the wider Welsh benefits work, which has gone to all local authorities.

Thank you. On that very positive note, I just want to thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your engagement with this committee over the last five years, but also for the passion with which you've pursued the social justice agenda across Government. You have the smallest budget, but possibly the most influence of any Cabinet Secretary. So, for the breadth of your influence and the way in which you have pushed forward on the things that you clearly are passionate about, as are we, we'd like to thank you for all the work you've done, which is obviously informed by your service to Wales since 1999.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much indeed. Thank you to all your officials as well, and you'll get the transcript in due course.

Thank you for all the work that you've done as a committee. It's been really important. I'm grateful.

So, there are seven papers to note, including the one we mentioned—the correspondence from the Magistrates Association. Are there any issues that anybody wants to raise before we go into private session? Jane.

Thank you. I would like to raise that particular letter, and I would like us to look at the action that we could take in response, having heard from the Cabinet Secretary. It is deeply concerning that, despite us raising the issues, there is no change at all in the approach that the Magistrates Association of Wales is taking, and I would like us to consider how we can write to them, bridging that with what the Cabinet Secretary has said. Thank you.

Yes, I agree it was disappointing, given that she said that they were fully engaged in the meetings that she was convening, where they said they were extremely keen to drive down the numbers being sent to prison. So, there's obviously a disconnect there, and I think if we can have some correspondence with the Welsh Government, and then with the Magistrates Association, to try and join up the dots there, because it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

Otherwise, are we content to go into private session? I see no disagreement on that, so can we now move into private session, please?