Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee

We want to move on now to item 2 which is the scrutiny session with the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. I'd like to welcome the witnesses to the meeting and invite them to introduce themselves starting with the Cabinet Minister.

Good afternoon. Thank you very much, Chair. I'm Anna Brychan and I'm the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. And joining me—

Hello, I'm Siwan Jones. I'm head of early years, education and families, 'Cymraeg 2050'.

I'm Jeremy Evas, head of Welsh language use.

Elin Burns, director, 'Cymraeg 2050'.

Thank you very much. Minister, before we move into questions from Members, I'd like to invite you to make a short opening statement.

Thank you very much, and thank you very much also for the opportunity to make a brief opening statement. I'm very pleased to be here with you—the first time for me to appear before this committee, or any committee, indeed, in my new role. I very much hope that this will be the first of many meetings, because I do believe that your work in scrutinising my work and that of this Government as we deliver upon our priorities for the people of Wales is crucially important work. I do look forward, truly, to hearing your views and opinions on the work of the Government, but also to working with you as we ensure that the Welsh language truly does belong to everyone in Wales. That does mean working across the Government, as has been outlined in the evidence paper that has been submitted to you, and as the programme for government that has just been published also makes clear.

But it also means, of course, working across every party and every part of the country, and your collaboration and co-operation as Members will be a crucial part of that work. I'm eager to have a constructive relationship with you, contributing to your inquiries over the coming years, and to consider them carefully as we act as a Government.

The Welsh language is at the heart of the kind of Wales that we as a Government want to create—an inclusive, creative, confident Wales that's proud of its own identity. You will see from the paper that we've already started this work by improving access to Welsh-medium education at every step of the journey, from the early years to statutory education and further education and higher education as well.

But the Welsh language is not just a language of the classroom, it's alive in our communities, and we are determined to empower the areas where it flourishes as a social language. The work of examining how best to do this has already started, and we've already started work to extend the Welsh language standards so that more and more sectors offer services through the medium of both languages. Alongside this, it's crucial that we, throughout the whole of Wales, take the Welsh language to people, wherever they are and in doing whatever they do already—on the playing field, in the workplace, in clubs, using services and in digital spaces as well, very importantly.

Opportunities to use the Welsh language must be easy to access, must be timely and must be fun. That's why our response as a Government to the second stage of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities report will be announced very soon. I want to do more to enable the Welsh language to take root in all of our policies. The work on health, culture, the economy and others that are outlined in the paper and in our programme for government provides a clear direction in terms of where we want to go, and there is much more to come in that regard.

Thank you very much. I want to start with an opening question and then I'll invite Members to follow. The programme for government published last week states that the Government's commitment to a thriving language underpins everything that you do. How will we assess whether you've achieved that ambition by the end of the Senedd term?

Thank you very much. There are a number of elements with regard to the language in the programme for government, and a number of those have already started. So, we have achieved every one of the commitments for the 100 days and have invested significantly in areas of specific importance in the programme for government, including, for example, the early years workforce. But as we consult on the new strategy—that consultation will begin in the autumn—it will be a means of setting out the context and specific targets for our work regarding the Welsh language, and that will be a way of showing us the extent to which we've achieved in meeting those targets that we'll be setting. It will also be an opportunity for you to scrutinise those targets and for us as a Government to show in that period, the Senedd term, what progress we've made. I don't know whether any officials want to come in on that as well.

Just to add, as part of that work on the strategy, there will be work to expand on the responsibilities across Government so that this really is work that does cut across Government, not just under the Minister for the Welsh language.

Thank you very much. Right, we have lots of questions to ask this morning, so who wants to kick off? Steven.

I want to talk about the Welsh language—. Sorry, welcome, Minister.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.

I'd like to talk about the Welsh language survey, and you talked a little bit with the first question about the fact that you're going to commission a consultation. There seems to be, in the report, a little bit of uncertainty around whether the figures in the survey are actually correct. With that in mind, you've kind of got to judge apples and apples. How will you know if the money you're spending is actually making a difference and pushing the Welsh language forward as you would like it to?

Thank you.

Thank you for your question.

You're right, there's a lot of data pertaining to the Welsh language in the system at the moment, and we have, as did the previous Government, I think, the census figures as the baseline against which we measure our progress for the million by 2050. But there are also other data in the system, which offer a useful snapshot of some of the figures that we have at our disposal as well.

I think they all add to a clearer understanding, but it is interesting that people note their ability to speak Welsh more readily and happily in some surveys compared to others. We are doing some work looking at what may be behind those decisions and that we have security then in the numbers that we can use and share, and have as complete a picture as possible. What will be also useful, I think, is that when people are recording their level of Welsh ability—. The questions that we ask them now are not necessarily as targeted as would be helpful. You are asked, 'Are you fluent, are you a beginner, or do you not speak Welsh?' That's probably not enough levels of refinement to capture people's skills and confidence in using Welsh.

Our starting point always is use the Welsh you have; whatever the scenario you're in, use what you've got, everybody can have access to this journey. That's the point and purpose of the code that we will also introduce, which will give everybody a greater capacity to record against an international template of language ability. We then, by virtue of that process, will have, as a country, a much better understanding of where we actually sit, and that will feed into refining our strategy.

Just a quick follow-on from that. So, as I understand it, you're going to get all this information together and then you will publish a baseline, and then that is basically what you can judge from as we move forward, so that we can come back in two years' time and say, 'This is where we were at the start, this is where we are now'.

We will still continue to use, I think, the census information as the baseline; that is what has fed the strategy so far. It's enriching that and allowing us to interrogate that data more thoughtfully—more intelligently, I suppose—that the code will offer us. I don't know if Jeremy would like to add something to that.

So far, we've discussed statistics. There is a picture of qualitative research that we have. We have areas of interest that have been published in terms of what other kinds of projects we want to see, because there are universities and research councils out there that are looking for impact for their work. So, we could send those to you as well.

So far, we've been talking about statistics regarding ability in Welsh and the code, et cetera. What needs to be emphasised in this important discussion is that ability is as good as ability as long as it leads to use. How do we measure the use of the Welsh language? We are looking at options in terms of that. It is being done in different ways in different surveys. We've looked at what's happening in Catalonia and the Basque Country, Galicia and so forth, and we will be introducing a discussion on that to the Minister shortly. It's interesting to note as well that the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities has reached the same conclusion, that we need to look at that.

Thank you very much. Louise, did you want to come in?

Yes. Diolch. It's on the same theme as Steven was saying about understanding the data. I think we're doing better than all the data says, to be honest. That's my feeling—

I hope you're right.

Particularly around the census. What influence do we have on what goes on the census, because it's not devolved? But we've got here, 'Can you understand, speak, read or write Welsh?' And you've just got, 'I can understand it, I can speak it, I can read it, I can write it or I can do none of the above.'

I can speak Welsh—

—but I would be ticking, probably, 'None of the above.' So, the question is, what influence do we have over the census to change—? There's not a lot of space on there. And then secondly, I think we're doing better, and my plea is to keep up with the carrot stuff and less of the stick. We're always nervous when we hear about legislating a language. We don't want to feel like it's forced on people, we want to feel like people come to it naturally. There are such good Welsh learning websites; they're brilliant. So, it's there, but I'd worry about legislating. I'd just use the carrot. But a question about the census, please.

Thank you very much. It's good to know that you feel perhaps that we are in a more positive position than some of the data would suggest. That's why, I think, for those reasons, we are looking at more careful and powerful ways of identifying ability and of recording the way that we encourage use.

There is a wider question with regard to the census specifically, namely that we're not 100 per cent sure whether the census will be part of the data gathering at a UK level. There's been mention made that that position could be moved away from. So, we have to be very careful that we record the data in an effective and accurate way, but that we also can be sure that we have this mechanism to continue to record progress, even if some other factors might change in the meantime.

Niamh, did you want to come in?

Yes, just quickly, I want to come back to that survey. Are you intending to conduct that survey yet? I can see from the previous Senedd that the former Minister for the Welsh language noted that work was happening to ensure that a survey was going to be done around the time of the new Senedd. So, I just wanted to know if there was an update in terms of when we could see that survey.

Are you talking about the survey of use?

Yes—sorry.

The preparatory work has been done. The previous Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford, as you said, authorised funding to consider the options. We're about to see those options. There'll be a decision for the Cabinet Minister to make in terms of taking that work forward. We can't say that it will or won't happen, but we are going to be looking at the options over the coming weeks.

Do you have a timetable?

I would say that very soon, within a month, six weeks, we'll know one way or the other, in the face of the current financial situation too.

And that is a factor, but ensuring an effective evidence baseline is the intention in all of these discussions.

I have one other thing to raise. In the previous Senedd, there was a programme of work between the ONS and the Government with regard to the data that's being collected about the Welsh language. Can you provide us with an update on that as well? Do you have an update for us as a committee?

That is work that is proceeding. The intention was to understand better the difference between the estimates of Welsh language use from the census, the annual population survey and other statistics, and drawing all of that together. But as Jeremy said, the general aim is to move towards a more definite metric. But I don't know if there's a date to complete that work with the ONS.

I think there are six packages of work as part of that, and over half of them have been completed. I don't know what the date is for the next parts. We could write to you with that information.

That would be good. Thank you.

Thank you. I want to move on now. Mair, I know that you had a question to ask about the Welsh language strategy.

I wanted to ask more about the Welsh language strategy and cross-Government work. I'm not sure whether Paul wanted to come in before me on those data matters.

Do you want to come in?

If I could come in and refer to something that the Minister said earlier. You referred to your consultation earlier and that you are going to be setting targets as a Government, to ensure that you achieve what you want to achieve as a Government. Could you tell us what kinds of targets you are going to be setting? Could you give us some examples of the kinds of targets that you will be setting as a Government?

I can't do that today, but there will be specific actions. There will be questions arising about the consultation from other members on the panel as well. But I think that will be the development of this strategy from the previous one: there will be more definite actions in that strategy when it's published. I don't know whether anybody else wants to add anything. That's where we are at the moment.

Thank you. Sorry for not bringing you in before turning to you.

This follows on from what Paul said. You talk of a new strategy, building on the foundations of 'Cymraeg 2050'. What I'm sure all of us as a committee would be interested in hearing is what will be significantly different in this new strategy, and how can we move this discussion forward in terms of having those long-term aims and objectives and targets. You mentioned that there was an intention to look at that cross-Government work, and that there is a responsibility across the whole Government to think about the Welsh language, and it's not just your responsibility as Minister. How is that principle being implemented across Government? Clearly, it's something that you'll be looking at in the strategy, but how is that being put into practice in those practical terms, how are individual Ministers being held to account about their policy impacts on the Welsh language and those long-term targets before you have your strategy in place, and when you do have that strategy in place? Clearly, in housing, culture, planning, transport, health and economy, the Welsh language touches upon all of those, so I'd be eager to hear how policy decisions in those areas are being considered in the context of the Welsh language, and how you measure the impact and influence of that to ensure that there are better outcomes for speakers and the language.

Thank you very much. I know we've repeated consistently the cross-government commitment to the Welsh language. I think when the programme for government was launched, this was one of the elements that was referred to by the First Minister specifically as a responsibility across the Government. So, when we look at the strategy, even though I am the Minister responsible for the Welsh language in the Cabinet, so to speak, all of the other Ministers also have a part to play. For me, clearly, Welsh in education is something that's at the core of things and the engine to drive things forward, but there are a number of other elements that are part of other Ministers' work. So, when we draw up the strategy, I will be identifying these responsibilities specifically and discussing those with Ministers, and then looking at mechanisms in terms of how we can jointly ensure that we are confident that we are moving in the right direction as a Government.

Thank you very much. The Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities, we have a question on that. Niamh, do you want to—?

I come from an area of lower density of Welsh speakers. I live in Blaenau Gwent, where the numbers, I think, are the lowest in terms of Welsh speakers in Wales. I think I've raised this with you in the Chamber. There's excellent work happening in the area with the menter iaith, and so forth, to try and promote the use of the Welsh language in the county. But the situation is quite different compared to trying to promote the Welsh language in Carmarthenshire, for example. So, what are you doing as a Government to try and tackle that problem, and getting the number of Welsh speakers to increase in areas where there aren't many at the moment?

Thank you very much. That's a very important point, because we do want everyone to be clear that access to the Welsh language for every community in Wales is the driver behind this Government's work. And whilst policy is going to be a little different—well, clearly different—in areas of higher density of Welsh language use as compared to those with lower density, it's just as important that we make progress in every part of Wales, and that easy, default access to the Welsh language is available. That's why we've been looking at the second stage of the commission's work, which has a large number of recommendations in this regard. I think we've committed to publishing a response by the end of the year, but I very much hope that we can facilitate that work and that we can publish that earlier than the end of the year. That's the focus of the commission's work, as well as town and country planning, which we are giving greater thought to. I don't know, Jeremy or Siwan, if you want to add any points to that specifically.

Clearly, as the Minister said, our focus is to tailor the provision and the support to every authority and community across Wales. Clearly, as has been in place for a number of years, each authority has a Welsh in education strategic plan. Education, as we know, is at the heart of increasing the number of Welsh speakers and the growth of Welsh amongst young people and children. The WESPs are going to continue as part of that broader framework of the legislation, which starts with the Welsh language strategy that puts that vision in place in terms of increasing numbers, increasing use, providing infrastructure for planning Welsh-medium education across Wales, and then the national framework for Welsh-medium education and learning Welsh, and the WESPs sit under that.

As part of that planning framework, there are bespoke targets for each authority, which respond to the local needs of authorities, and provide support packages that once again have been tailored along with all the partners that are working and are key in this area, such as Mudiad Meithrin and Cwlwm partners from the early years, the mentrau iaith, the Urdd and other providers supporting the school community, the Welsh language learning centre, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and others supporting learners past the statutory education age. So, it's part of a broader picture that's going to form part of that package in terms of the strategy, the national framework and the strategic plans at a local level.

And to add to what Siwan has just said, coming back to your question, as part of that work, we are going to be looking at strategies to promote the Welsh language. The Welsh Language Commissioner held a conference last week to think about this, with the mentrau iaith, who know what's happening on the ground—bringing all of those key partners together, looking at that through the lens of our response to the second stage of the commission's work, and seeing what work is needed in terms of what will increase use and numbers.

Yes, I agree with what you're saying. Personally, I've seen both sides of things. I went to a Welsh-medium primary and secondary school, and then went to Aberystwyth University and did my course through the medium of Welsh. But for many of us, especially in the south-east, the biggest thing that affects my Welsh language is confidence. So, today, I'm doing this through the medium of Welsh, and it's a massive thing for me; I've been so nervous about it beforehand. But I know of many former pupils of Gwynllyw and other schools where they've gone through Welsh-medium education, and then I see them in a few years and they say now that they can't speak Welsh any more, and we know that's not true—it's to do with confidence and the lack of opportunities perhaps in our communities in Blaenau Gwent, compared to when I was in university in Aberystwyth, to use the language. So, how do you tackle that issue of confidence?

I think that is a factor, but I also think that opportunities, perhaps, to use the Welsh language are where the gap is, and that people don't know—people have to seek out those opportunities. So, I think what will be interesting about the response to the second stage of the commission's work is to what extent we can support communities through all of the work that Siwan and Jeremy mentioned just now to get to a position where perhaps there's a change of attitude amongst individuals as well, not to always communicate through the medium of Welsh, but to use what they have, and grow people's confidence to use Welsh in the community. I think everybody has a part to play in making that possible for people—that we encourage and that we create those opportunities. I think those default opportunities will be the most important factor for people in Blaenau Gwent, for example—my mother comes from that area, as it happens, and she remembers learning poetry through the medium of Welsh at school, but with no idea of what—. She can still recite the poetry now, but she didn't know what it meant at the time. But that there is a clear presence of the Welsh language in those communities—that's what we're aiming towards.

Yes. Just to come back in quickly, for me personally, when I go into a shop in Blaenau Gwent, in my mind, you speak English first before Welsh, compared, for example, with Aberystwyth, where I speak Welsh first and then English. So, how can you do that in shops too, so that people know they can use the Welsh language if they wish to do so?

I think—. Not that this is a specific part of the strategy, but what I do in Cardiff is I give it a go. And it's surprising how often I can have a conversation then in Welsh.

I'd like to congratulate you on your use of the Welsh language in this meeting. It's fantastic to hear you using the Welsh language. Very good. Right, Mair.

Thank you very much. Following on from what Niamh was referring to there, and that reference to the Commission for Welsh-Speaking Communities, I think what's important about that piece of work is that it looks beyond education and that it looks at everything in terms of the Welsh language that impacts our communities. I'm in an area where there are higher density areas in terms of the Welsh language, and I have an interest in that process of designating areas of higher density linguistic significance, which is one of the main recommendations of the commission. But also there are so many different elements to the work of promoting the language, and considering it in policy areas and plans, for example. So, as somebody who used to be a councillor on Gwynedd Council, that quite often was a factor, but, clearly, Gwynedd Council is one of the only councils that operates entirely through the medium of Welsh. So, there are so many different areas to consider. But I was pleased to hear that you will have a response to the commission's work coming shortly. And my question is regarding the timetable for moving from the preparatory work, and responding to the recommendations, to presenting proposals, possibly legislative proposals or a formal framework, for us to consider from those recommendations, then.

Recommendations from the second phase, now?

Well, all of the commission's work, in a way—

Right, okay.

—and where we go next with that work.

I'll just ask this as well, so it'll be easier for you to come in after. One of the other things I was interested in is, clearly, there's a reference to economic policy work and, specifically, in my area, there's the Arfor scheme, and that's been very important and has had a great influence, I feel. The legacy report of the previous committee refers to that work in terms of Arfor, and I'd be interested in knowing when there'll be a report on the impact of Arfor and how we move forward to build on that work as well.

Thank you very much. I don't know if—. Jeremy, do you know about Arfor and the timetable?

Yes, there's a pause and review report, as it's called, on Arfor at the moment. There isn't a specific date, but it'll be in the autumn, and the autumn is before the end of the year, so, I think we can say that it'll be before the end of the year. That's why some of the recommendations of the first stage of the commission—four of them—have been rejected pending that report. And the same thing with the commission's report on town and country planning. So, a great deal of discussion will revolve around that. But all of the recommendations and reports of the commission that have been accepted will feed into the drafts of the new strategy.

And perhaps it's worth noting in that regard, in terms of town and country planning, in particular, there is a definite focus on that now, and that will come with a detailed timetable for implementation.

Thank you. Rebeca is joining us online, and she has a question. Rebeca.

Thank you very much, Chair. Welcome, Minister. Thank you for joining us this morning.

Embedding the Welsh language across Government is critical, of course. I believe, in the past, Ministers perhaps have been working in silos in terms of the Welsh language, so I really welcome this new focus. The planning system will be crucial to the future of the Welsh language. I'm sure that a number of us have seen a decline in the language because of large housing estates receiving planning permission in Welsh-speaking areas. So, what discussions have you had to date with the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning on future action? Thank you.

Thank you very much. I have had two meetings, I think, with the housing and planning Minister. We've been looking specifically at town and country planning and the recommendations in that, which, clearly, bring planning and housing into the context of Welsh language policy. So, when we look at the cross-Government work, when we look at the strategy, those considerations will also feed into that strategy, so that we can see, I think, that cross-Government element, and also will be able to include in it all the different elements that influence the Welsh language and whether it flourishes or not in communities across Wales.

Thank you very much. We move on now to the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025—. Sorry, Steven, I didn't see you there.

Just a quick one on the commission piece. It mentions a little bit about legal protections, which makes me very nervous, because I'm all for the carrot side of it and encouraging people to speak Welsh and that side, but when we're talking legal protections for areas with a high concentration of Welsh speakers, do you see that there's—? I think you have to be careful, moving forward, there, because there's a potential that you might discriminate against non-Welsh speakers in those high-concentration areas when you're rolling this out, especially when you put a legal basis behind it.

Thank you very much for the question. What we've looked at—. The first commission, which was looking at areas where there was a higher use of the Welsh language, recommended designating areas of higher density linguistic significance. We are looking at legislative options, but we want to start swiftly. Legislation always takes a long time, so we are looking at how we can encourage and designate through the current powers and use the structures that we already have to facilitate that, working very closely with local government so that this is practicable, fair and based on robust evidence. But we've also committed to look at legislation where that perhaps would be relevant.

In terms of the second issue, namely people who are not Welsh speakers, part of our intention as well is that everybody—. The fact that we say that the Welsh language belongs to everybody, those are not empty words. There is an intention to include people, providing opportunities to learn and use the language to everybody living in communities across Wales. I don't know whether anybody would like to add anything there. No, everybody's happy. Thank you very much for the question.

Sorry, I just think, on that one, when we're talking about legal powers, we've got to be extremely careful, because I'm all for encouraging people to speak Welsh, to give them the opportunity to speak Welsh, but there will be an element behind it who could be discriminated against, because maybe they decide, 'I'm not going to do that,' or, because legal powers come in, they actually take against the language, which, I understand, is not what you're intending, but we've just got to be very careful when you use more of the stick and less of the carrot.

I think in this particular context of dynodi—I can't remember what dynodi is in—

Designation.

—designation, diolch yn fawr—of designating areas where use of Welsh is very high, it is what comes from such a designation that protects the language in its communities and develops it there. That may affect things like planning, for example, but that's what we're looking at. These are communities with—. Some of the solutions to support and develop Welsh in those communities will be different from some areas of Wales, but, in so doing, we will do so, obviously, carefully, using the best data available. But we are determined to act appropriately in all communities in Wales to make sure that Welsh survives, thrives and develops in all of them, and that people have access to Welsh and are able to use it in their communities everywhere.

Thank you. Nick.

Just to go back to Arfor—. Excuse me, I'm going to speak in English. I'm not sure if I'm quite ready to scrutinise you in Welsh. I understand everything, but—.

Economic development in these communities of a high density of Welsh speakers is obviously critical to keep those members of the communities there, and I think there were parts of the Arfor programme that were considered successful. So, talking about how we are working across Government, it's thinking about how or what the Welsh Government is going to do to embed Cymraeg in our economic policy, going forward, the positive elements of Arfor, perhaps, and how they might be included in the national development agency. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr for that one. I think Jeremy said earlier on that Arfor is being looked at, but you're quite right to point out that one of the things that will make it possible for Welsh to thrive in some of these communities is that there are jobs, there are economic opportunities and the people who wish to stay in their communities can do so because they are economically vibrant places. To go back to the cross-Government element of the work around Cymraeg, I know that that is a factor in how we're looking more widely at economic development as well.

Diolch. Paul.

Thank you, Chair. I want to ask some questions on education through the medium of Welsh. Now you, as a Government, have said that you want to increase the proportion of children who receive Welsh-medium education and have committed to ensuring that half of children start their school journey in Welsh-medium education by 2050. What is the current capacity of the system to deliver that expansion, particularly in areas where demand is increasing but there is a lack of spaces in Welsh-medium schools?

Yes, we have committed to that, and one of the things that we will be doing—well, we are doing it currently—is looking at the data that we have. We have conducted a swift study, for example, of the WESPs, the Welsh in education strategic plans, to look at the provision in local government plans, because, of course, local government are responsible for planning school places, and then to analyse the information that we have in terms of that and plan towards that aim of 2050 based on robust data. I'm not sure whether somebody wants to add something here.

I'm happy to come in. Thank you. As the Minister said, we undertook a rapid review of the strategic plans as part of the 100-day commitment. That's based on plans that have been in force in every local authority since 2022, with the aim across all local authorities of reaching up to 30 per cent of learners in year 1, as the earliest statutory age, to be learning through the medium of Welsh by 2031-32. So, at least that has provided some kind of snapshot, almost, to see where the local authorities are. Over a third of local authorities are over 50 per cent of the way, and they're halfway through plans now—they're 10-year plans—which demonstrates that this approach of setting targets, tailoring targets so that they're bespoke for different communities, does drive growth. And although we have focused on one point, namely year 1 learners, what we do see is that that then drives growth from the early years up. That is, across Wales, 24.7 per cent of learners are in Welsh-medium education on the basis of year 1 data, but that percentage is increasing from nursery and reception up. And of course, there are other targets then that will ensure growth in secondary and beyond.

But you don't know currently how many additional places you need in Welsh-medium schools in order to meet that need. You don't know at the moment in terms of that capacity.

It's part of the modelling currently under way as part of drawing up the strategy to get to that 50 per cent. The growth would have to happen gradually at the beginning because the provisions of the Act haven't been implemented. For example, the statutory school categories haven't been made statutory yet. Schools don't have those school delivery plans yet, which are going to be driving growth in different ways. So, it is part of the considerations for that statistical pathway to get to the 1 million, but tailored then to the 50 per cent in Welsh-medium education too.

You mentioned that the work, of course, is ongoing now. When will that work come to an end and you will really know what sort of capacity is required?

Well, the consultation will be launched during the autumn term, towards the end of the term. And it is a deliberate approach by us to be consulting on the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy and the national framework at the same time, because that will set out the vision but also the detail in terms of the expectations regarding increasing the growth that we expect to see in schools across Wales and across local authorities as well, in terms of the targets that will be set. So, hopefully, by consulting as a package, we'll then be able to provide a full picture of the vision but also that detailed information.

And, of course, perhaps the availability of teachers and other education professionals who can teach through the medium of Welsh is the biggest barrier to expanding Welsh-medium education. What is your assessment of the size of that gap in the workforce, and what specific targets are you setting for recruitment, retention and developing the language skills of teachers over the next four years?

This clearly is something that has been the subject of focus by the previous Government, I think, as well. But we have committed to doing some additional things, such as incentive payments for those who want to teach through the medium of Welsh, and there are transition schemes as well that target teachers perhaps who would be willing to move—or who would enjoy moving, rather—to work in the secondary sector.

But I think that the wider point to make here is that in, consulting on the strategy, a great deal of detailed work has been done on the commissions, Welsh in education and the code so that we can demonstrate that a new strategy does move more deliberately, where there are clear actions in terms of how we get to the 2050 target. And I would welcome the opportunity, once we've been able to publish all of that, to come back to discuss these elements and how they all work together. Because there are discussions, perhaps, that have tended to be more piecemeal on individual elements and we're trying to bring all of that work together in this new strategy.

Do you, as a Government, know how many additional teachers are required to ensure that we reach that target, or is that work ongoing as well?

It is a requirement under the Act that the national framework also introduces an assessment of workforce needs in order to reach the targets of the strategy and the framework. That work is currently under way. What is important to acknowledge, I think, is that, clearly, the context is entirely different to what it was in 2017, when the original strategy was published, and targets with regard to the workforce too. The decline in birth rates has clearly had an impact on numbers and cohorts of learners over the years. So, part of the assessment this time will look in detail at the different trends across areas of Wales. There are pockets in Wales where there isn't a lack of a Welsh-speaking workforce, but, of course, there are areas where there is a clear deficiency. But, possibly, in secondary more than primary, for example. So, it's an unequal picture, that's what we're trying to say here.

And as part of the assessment of the workforce, we want to present that complex picture, but also show where there are opportunities to effect change, but effect change in a more informed way possibly than has—. It's not just a matter having a larger workforce, but the right workforce in the right places in Wales, and that's a different way of thinking about the whole thing.

And will that picture become clearer, therefore, following this assessment?

Yes. And it is a requirement for that to be part of the consultation too. So, again, we will be starting consultation, obviously, launching a consultation, but it will certainly be an opportunity to have a national conversation, I think, about how we tailor the support in the most correct manner. And if I could just say—

Yes, of course.

As part of the Act as well, we will be establishing the athrofa for learning Welsh, which, of course, is going to be a key part of the picture in planning and supporting the workforce, alongside the Dysgu body, which is going to be able to offer that professional learning. So, it's part of a very broad jigsaw and shows, in all honesty, I think, how transformative this Act will be for the education landscape in Wales in moving forward.

There is a risk, of course, that young people who learn Welsh at school will not have opportunities to use the language as they move into further education, for example, or higher education, or become apprentices perhaps. What is the Government doing to ensure that reaching 16 years of age doesn't become a point where young people's Welsh language skills decline?

Thank you very much. And, clearly, this is a challenge that we've identified as well, and I know that the Deputy Minister has focused specifically on this. Therefore, discussions are happening with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and also with Medr, to ensure that we can see unfettered ways of young people moving from Welsh-medium education to colleges, if that's relevant. But the same factors in terms of the workforce are also relevant there. There will be elements of planning that—that will need to be done. And certainly, there is detailed work under way with relevant partners to facilitate that to a greater extent, perhaps, than what has been achieved in the past.

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks. Niamh. Niamh wanted to come in briefly.

Yes. Just to follow on from what Paul has been talking about. One thing that stood out to me, when I was looking at the workforce, was the numbers who are taking Welsh at A-level. We've seen a significant decline in the number of people studying for A-levels through the medium of Welsh over the years, and then that has an impact, as we know, on the numbers who go on to university to study Welsh, who might then become Welsh teachers. So, do you look at that as well when you're doing this work on the workforce issues through the medium of Welsh?

It's clear that the subjects that young people study for A-level do ultimately have an impact on the workforce that we have available to us. So, that's certainly a live part of our discussion, to encourage people. The young people that I've spoken to who have done A-level in Welsh praise it very much. I acknowledge that it's a comparatively small sample group that I have. But focusing on that element is also important to encourage young people to look at teaching as a career ultimately, and I think we will also have to be a little bit more creative in that sense over the next period.

There are capacity plans, for example, that are developing, which invite students back to schools to spend a period of time as teaching assistants and to introduce them to the education system, which have been very effective, and also to encourage at every opportunity, certainly anybody I come across, to consider teaching as a career.

Thanks. Mair.

Thank you very much. I think that many of the questions I had in mind have already been asked in terms of the workforce, but, clearly, the ambitious target of 50 per cent depends a great deal on the education workforce and the skills to be able to achieve that vision. I understand that it's a complex picture, but certainly, I do feel that we need a plan for the education workforce and some sort of modelling in terms of how many additional teachers will be needed. Is the Minister content that the current arrangements for initial teacher training are adequate, or do you believe that we need to move towards a more specific requirement at all in terms of developing Welsh language skills, and with reference to the different subjects that young people choose?

One of the challenges I see—. I should declare an interest, because my partner is a Welsh lecturer at university. As well as encouraging young people to go on to learn through the medium of Welsh, there is a risk in terms of the Welsh language as a subject in and of itself, and how the numbers studying A-level and then going on to university to study the Welsh language have declined significantly over the years. Also, obviously, those people could perhaps go on to be tutors who help people to learn Welsh or to develop their skills in the field of education, but also could go on to be teachers of the Welsh language in schools as well. So, those two topics I wanted to ask you about. Thanks.

Thank you very much. I think I may have misunderstood Niamh's question—I apologise, Niamh. I thought you were talking about Welsh as a subject, but perhaps it was a broader point about other subjects through the medium of Welsh. Clearly there has been some development in recent years in terms of initial teacher training—I think that 35 hours is a requirement for each of those courses at the moment. And also that people don't just look at developing their Welsh language skills as confident speakers, but also look at teaching through the medium of Welsh, which is perhaps a different skill to learning a language yourself. But I think we all realise that the strategy is going to reveal to us what needs to be done. But also we all realise that this isn't something that we'll be able to solve overnight, and there are a number of different elements in terms of encouraging people to enter teaching—to be a little bit more creative, as I was saying earlier, in terms of that—and perhaps looking at initial teacher training from the perspective of the Welsh language. But there have been steps that have been taken in the right direction in that area already.

Thank you. We don't have a great deal of time left, but I do want to turn to Mike now, who is going to ask a question about the early years.

Yes. I believe languages are much easier to learn the younger you start learning them. And those of you who had the advantage, like my daughter, of starting off at Ti a Fi, going through Mudiad Meithrin before starting in school, it's hugely advantageous over people like me who's tried to learn a little bit in school, followed by trying to learn a little bit as an adult. It makes a huge difference. What support are you going to give to Ti a Fi, Mudiad Meithrin and the Urdd to get children at a young age to start using Welsh as their language of choice, so that they don't know enough words in English for it to become complicated? [Laughter.] Sometimes, when you know a lot of words in English, it becomes much more difficult to say what you want to say in Welsh. I did ask earlier in a private discussion, as I don't know what the Welsh word for 'ameliorate' is, for example. That's a word I use not infrequently in debates.

Oh, I haven't spotted 'ameliorate' in the debate so far. I'm going to look out for that now. It would probably be 'gwella'.

But I take the point that, obviously, the focus on early years is crucial. I think the work of Mudiad Meithrin, when you consider that 11,000 children across Wales go to a cylch meithrin—396 of the cylchoedd meithrin—and a majority of those from homes that are not Welsh-speaking homes and 89 per cent of those then go on to Welsh-medium education, it's obviously a very effective model.

And I think the assurance I can give him is that, obviously, in the cross-Government work and the childcare offer, for example, Mudiad Meithrin's part in that is something that I and the Deputy First Minister have discussed about how we make sure that that capacity, that that opportunity is there as part of that policy area, as well as in education more broadly. And that is certainly a priority for us. So, I hope that gives you some assurance that we are looking very carefully at making sure that those early opportunities are there, because they are very effective.

But also, where needed, when children come late, for example, to Welsh-medium education, there are opportunities for the trochi scheme—and now I don't know what that is in English—the trochi scheme where learners—. [Interruption.] Late immersion is an opportunity at that end of the scale as well. So, we are tackling it from both directions, but I take your point about the early years.

And you didn't say anything about Ti a Fi, which is pre-Mudiad Meithrin.

Yes.

And I think you were talking about people living in Welsh-speaking households, people living in English-speaking households. Some people live in households where one parent speaks Welsh fluently, went all the way through the education system in Welsh, and the other speaks Welsh very poorly. I include myself in that latter group and my wife in the former group. And I think that what Mudiad Meithrin and Ti a Fi do is give an opportunity for the less competent parent, in the medium of Welsh, to be able to go on the journey.

Yes. Thank you. I think you're being unkind to yourself there, but I too live in just such a household, and Ti a Fi was a key factor for us. I don't have any details with me on Ti a Fi specifically, but that early years focus, that pre-school focus, as I said, is part of what will be important in growing confident Welsh speakers. But it's also a key part of how we look at the childcare offer.

I'm not confident in Welsh, but happy to speak it to members of my family and friends. I'm not confident to speak Welsh in the Senedd.

The last question I've got is, again, how are we going to get the staff able to speak Welsh competently. And I've been in places—I won't name them—where it's nominally a Welsh-medium institution but, certainly, a lot of staff there use English for most of their communication.

Thank you. I didn't realise that you had so much Welsh. It sounded very fluent to me.

This, again, is a factor that is a priority for us, and it relates to the point that somebody made earlier about opportunities in further education colleges. Increasing the workforce, especially those working in early years, and that they have the Welsh language skills, is a specific focus. I know that this, for example, is something that the Deputy Minister and Deputy First Minister have been discussing as well, so I would expect to have more to discuss in that regard with you shortly.

Thank you. I'm happy.

Thanks. Right, Rebeca.

Thank you. Very briefly, with regard to the immersion centres, I think they've been hugely successful. Certainly, we have one at Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pontardawe, called Y Cwm, which has been excellent. The Minister is welcome to visit at any time.

What is the vision in terms of these centres, and what assessment will be made of capacity and the need to expand provision?

I don't know if somebody else wants to start on this, on immersion. Siwan, yes, thanks.

Thank you. I totally agree—the late immersion centres, the landscape of late immersion in Wales, has changed significantly during the last few years, and, from being available only in specific parts of Wales, there is now provision in all 22 local authorities, and I think it's something that every local authority is proud of. So, certainly, it's a success story.

Clearly, every provision is different. The main aim of the provision is to offer a pathway for learners who have not been able, for whatever reason, to have access to Welsh-medium education from the beginning to come in at a later point and after, perhaps, 10 to 12 weeks of intensive language intervention to then have full access to the curriculum in a Welsh-medium school and beyond.

What we are seeing is that the provision has evolved to offer support to learners who are already in Welsh-medium education but who perhaps have been identified as ones who would benefit from getting further support linguistically, and they can spend a short period of time, or a few weeks or a tailored time, in those centres to strengthen some of the language patterns, for whatever reason, that have been in decline. This was clearly there after COVID, and this is being used to increase confidence, and to increase the confidence of families who are on the Welsh language journey. That's been a very valuable resource. By now, every local authority in Wales is providing that support, that intervention, to improve Welsh language skills. What's also evolved is the aftercare. So, a number of local authorities are now offering 10 to 12 hours of aftercare in the home school, and that, I think, is important to embed those language skills, and that has been recognised in Estyn reports as a very good practice.

So, that's the sort of thing that we'd be looking to develop, and it's part of our discussions on the introduction of the first guidelines in Wales regarding late immersion, and that will be done later, in the new year.

Well, thank you very much for that. We are going to bring the session to an end in a moment, but I have a question that I would like to ask right at the end. You mentioned the need to think creatively earlier in the meeting, and I agree with you on that point. In my previous life, I have always worked with the arts and sports to ensure that, as resources, they increase the use of the Welsh language in communities.

I saw in your report that you've already been working with Creative Wales and that work is excellent. How does the Government see us making progress in ensuring that the arts, cultural and sports sectors all work towards increasing the use of the Welsh language in our communities?

I think we go back again to that cross-Government work, really. I'm aware, for example, that the Cabinet Minister for Culture and Sport has launched a consultation on a new strategy, or has asked people for ideas on the new strategy. Clearly, as a Government, as the Welsh language is so important to the work that we want to achieve in this term, that will be an additional means of showing the place of the Welsh language in those elements as well, so that we can see across Government all the activity that supports clearly the Welsh language in education, but that it touches all these different elements, including culture and sport, but also the economy, housing and planning, and that you can see, then, where the Welsh language lives, so to speak, across this Government.

Thank you very much. Thank you for your evidence. Oh, Mair—Mair really is itching to ask a question.

Sorry, I wasn't sure, but I could see that we had four minutes left.

So, one area that we perhaps haven't discussed, but I feel is very important—. I welcome the Government's commitment to strengthening linguistic rights and extending the Welsh language standards to new sectors. So, I just wanted to ask whether you can outline the next steps and timetable for extending the standards to those sectors that are already within the compass of the legislation, such as energy, telecommunications and postal services. Has the Government asked yet for the consent of the UK Secretary of State to extend the standards to Crown bodies, in addition to the legislative work on the new sectors, such as banks, supermarkets and private car parks?

And following on from that, we have a four-year term and extending the standards can be a very slow process. So, what possible changes would you consider to capacity and resources or to governance arrangements that need to be made, perhaps, to give confidence that this programme will progress at a slightly different pace in this Senedd? Thank you.

Thank you very much. There were a number of things there, in terms of using the last four minutes very carefully. There are elements, as you mentioned in the question, of extending the standards that need the consent of the Secretary of State, and I am going to write to him—in the next few days, as I think that is what's in my timetable—to start the process.

We're also looking, of course, at preparing standards in other sectors that have been named in the Measure. I don't have a specific timetable to share today, but, certainly, that is in the remit, as we are trying to look at all the effective interventions and to ensure that people in Wales can have consistent and reliable access to the services that they receive from public bodies, whoever is responsible for those public bodies or those provisions. So, the two things are happening together, but I'll have to come back to you with regard to the specific timetable regarding some of these elements, if I may. Thank you

Thank you very much. A transcript of the meeting will be sent to you to check that it is an accurate representation of what you have said. I just want to thank you all very much for joining us and for your responses. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from items 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 of this week's meeting. Are Members content? I see that they are. Thank you very much. We will now proceed in private session to consider the evidence and other documents.

Welcome back to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee. We will now move on to our evidence session with Sport Wales. I'd like to welcome the witnesses to the meeting. Please introduce yourselves.

I'm Tanni Grey-Thompson. I'm chair of Sport Wales.

Brian Davies, chief executive officer of Sport Wales.

Thank you very much. I want to start with an opening question and then I'll invite Members to follow. The Welsh Government has said that Wales will be a nation where culture and sport aren't seen as optional extras, but as an essential part of national life. Can Sport Wales explain what this would look like from their perspective and how the Welsh Government's progress could be measured, please?

Thank you very much. If I can go first, we very much welcome sport and culture being put at the heart of everything. Obviously, we think sport and physical activity in Wales are incredibly important, not just sport for sport's sake, but the impact of physical activity and everything that it brings. If I could just quickly go through, I'm just starting my second term as chair. As ever, it's been a very busy year for Sport Wales and the work that we do. So, for me, putting sport at the heart of community, it's about what else sport and physical activity can deliver.

We very much welcome the Government talking about prevention. It's something that we believe in, and we've talked a lot at Sport Wales and beyond about how we keep people out of the health service, how we are able to encourage everyone to lead fit and healthy lives. Sport is an integral part of that. We can't do it on our own. It is actually linked to education, it's linked to healthy food, to employment, to housing. All those things have an impact on people's lives. But I think it's a really exciting time in terms of the collaborations. We already have a very strong link with Public Health Wales, a memorandum of understanding and the work we're doing together. But we see this, and I very much see it, as an opportunity where we can link with other arm's-length bodies, other organisations, to actually get individuals thinking about what they do differently. So, we've got our governing bodies, we've got partners. There are lots of people, if you talk about sport in Wales, with whom we work together. But if you're an individual who doesn't do any physical activity—what I was saying earlier, people know they have to be physically active but they don't necessarily know what to do—actually, I think this is an amazing opportunity for us to try and get to those individuals, to get them to think about what their personal responsibility is and about what they could do.

And it's about putting Wales on the world map. We've come off the back of the Commonwealth Games. I know that doesn't fit within our annual report, which we laid before the Senedd last week. But, as a very small nation on a world stage, we're doing incredibly well, which is brilliant. But I think we can use sport and physical activity to help raise the nation in other ways.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Thank you, Chair. If I could add to that, I think that's a really critical question, certainly for the committee as well. I have to say, as an organisation, we're really encouraged by the language used in the call for evidence from the new Welsh Government in their documentation. Committing to Wales being a powerhouse is quite a significant statement. Sport and physical activity to be an essential part of Welsh life is another huge statement.

If I could, whilst we're still preparing our organisational response to that call for evidence, I think, together with the sector, I'd volunteer that a high-level initial narrative in response to that is that sport is a national asset, but it has untapped potential. It hasn't been given the opportunity to show everything that it can do as a sector for the nation. And to be able to do that, a mindset change is necessary not just within Government, but within the public consciousness as well. It's not just sport, it's sport and physical activity, and it's so much more than just a competition on a Saturday or a Wednesday night, or whenever. And I think if we can get that right together, across the nation, across sectors, across Government departments, across party lines, I think we can achieve that powerhouse status. There are examples globally where work has gone on in that vein. So, we do welcome the call for evidence.

Just building on some of the wider stuff that Tanni mentioned, we've got some good engagement with Welsh Government officials on that process as well. We will take an organisational response, obviously, but we also want to coalesce the sector in the response they can make. But they need to make that on their behalf. We shouldn't do it for them; they should do their own. And we'll encourage that and we'll bring groups together to make sure that happens. But, yes, we do welcome it and there's an opportunity here, I think, for us to grasp.

Good. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. We're going to move on to funding—cyllid.

Louise, do you want to start, please?

Sure. Thank you for coming today. There are lots of warm words going around about how important sport is and embedded in life in Wales and within Government strategy, but, obviously, in the programme for government, we didn't see that come through in terms of actual cash. So, at the moment—. Obviously, we've had a decade of cuts, and this committee had a report on that, didn't they, which said that, considering CPI and inflation, we're probably about £11 million short. So, what have you asked the Welsh Government for right now in terms of raw, hard cash? That's my first question—or the percentage that you've asked for.

Well, thank you for raising that. It is such an important part of our role. We do invest public funds in over 70 organisations across Wales. On top of that, we also invest in local community clubs separately. So, funding is clearly a really important part of our work. We haven't made a direct ask of Government, as such, but we have presented reports and policies and ideas that would need funding. But we haven't made a direct ask of Government, to date at least. But you're right, the previous committee did publish a report that showed the differences between public funding in Wales and in counterparts in Great Britain, let alone across the board. Sport Scotland have had a huge increase in their funding in the last 12 months, half of which is ongoing, is recurring. So, we haven't made a direct ask, but we currently invest around about £12.5 million in national governing bodies of sport in Wales, around about £3.5 million in other national partners, and then, significantly, about £11.2 million in sport partnerships, which covers the local authority base. So, on those figures, our policy asks were for an increase in the figures that we could then present.

Anything will do, any increase. You've not given a percentage, just, 'Any more cash, please'.

Well, there was a figure already of about £11 million down on inflationary pressures, et cetera. That doesn't include the cost-of-living increases that clubs and other organisations are facing as well. You heard a lot from the Minister, I think, last week about swimming pool closures. A lot of that is down to the energy crisis. It's not all down to that, but that affects all sports. So, our lottery funding we use to help the energy savings aspect for clubs with solar panels, et cetera. So, yes, an increase would be welcome, and if only because there is some pressure on the lottery at the moment in terms of the returns. We're not encouraged currently by the number being presented by DCMS in terms of the figure we're going to get next year, certainly not the increases that were promised. So, finances are pressured.

It's a double whammy, really, if you get reduced spending from there.

It could be.

We're keeping a really close eye on the lottery, and I think we've taken a very conservative stance because there were big promises made. We've been very sensible with that, and we continue to keep looking at that. It's always easy to say that more money will fix everything, and if the Welsh Government were to offer us more money, I wouldn't turn it down, but it's how you spend the money that's in the system. So, I think, where we are at the moment, it's looking at money that's currently going into health, about how you can use that preventatively. There is so much data out there about prevention, keeping people out of the health service, keeping people fit and healthy longer, keeping older people in their own homes. By sport and physical activity, it's how money is used in a slightly different way. And, I think, with our funding model, it's not about 'new' anymore, but asking the governing bodies and partners to think differently about what they do. We're exploring, we're talking about systems thinking, using that with our partners to get them to think differently, to move away from quite a traditional way of looking at physical activity.

And then just some of the other things that we're able to support through Be Active or Crowdfunder—money going down to a much more local level, in terms of people who are working at the grass roots. Sport in this country survives and thrives with volunteers, and it's how you keep them engaged as well. So, I think, sometimes when we talk about sport, you're thinking about people playing sport. Actually, it's coaching, volunteers. There are lots of ways people can be active in quite a broad sense, rather than just, I think, the participants that we usually think about.

I think, more positively, the capital increases that we've had over the last few years have been really welcomed by the sector. Tanni just mentioned the Crowdfunder scheme, where we didn't used to be able to invest in off-field activity, like changing rooms or things that weren't directly involved in participation, so to speak. But, with additional capital funding, we have been able to partner with Crowdfunder. So, we can work with organisations to develop that kind of facility. I think that's an untapped talent area as well. I think we can grow that. Capital is one thing, but revenue is where the pressures have definitely been felt.

Okay. Thank you.

Diolch. Mair.

Just following on from that question, you have referred, and the previous committee referred, perhaps, to the significant gaps because of the lack of funding in areas such as facilities, participation, and sport as part of the preventative health agenda. It's good to hear about the work that you're doing in collaboration with other organisations in terms of that specific agenda. But if additional funding were to be made available, what do you think your main investment priorities would be, and how would that investment contribute to increasing participation and improving the health and well-being of people in Wales?

Thank you Mair, and thank you for the question. If I could answer first, Tanni, we asked nearly every party before the election to consider four priorities. The first one was increasing funding, of course. The other one, or the second one, was that we could devise funding for the long term for preventative health. And then, the third—and this is the priority that could create the greatest change—what we call in English, 'the whole-school approach', or the Daily Active. That's not a programme, but a change of mindset in terms of what's happening in school. I'm always asked the question, 'What are you doing for PE?', and, to me, the most important thing is what is happening during the day, not just for an hour or two hours a week, but how young people approach becoming active. That was the third demand that we had for the parties. And finally, of course, was investment in equipment and facilities, and ensuring that facilities are open, and regionally too, not just at community level. Also, the national centre has been open now since the 1970s, so there's a need to look at that as well.

So, those were the four things. The first option, the Daily Active, would be the most important thing for us to look at, I think.

Steven.

It's actually quite linked into what you were just saying. So, mine is all about priorities, because you are in a difficult funding environment. And, again, there are quite a lot of priorities for you on here. We've got daily activity, prevention, we've got grass roots, we've got community, we've got clubs, we've got facilities—the big ticket item—and you've got elite sport and legacy, and what's in the pipeline in order to get there. Each of those are massive funding items. You've mentioned Be Active, the daily activity, but how would you prioritise each of those items? And after that, for you, if you look back, what would success look like?

That's a good question with a long answer, I think. I'll try and keep it brief and then, Tanni, maybe you can add to it. Not all of those are mutually exclusive. I think some of those can happen at the same time. They're so interlinked, a lot of them, which shows the power of sport and physical activity generally.

I have to say that I commend partners. Earlier on, I talked about how much we invest in partners. That is one of our main roles. I have to commend the work they already do with that investment. They have changed their narrative and their focus over the years. It is no longer sport for sport's sake. They do understand the power of the product that they have. So, some of the difficulties have been overcome—the changing of attitude by partners who invest. I think to choose one amongst those is difficult.

I did mention the whole-school approach, because we are tasked with using the lens of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. If you're talking about young people, school is the environment where you've got a captive audience, and if you can make children who go to school regard activity as part of the norm, lots of the other things that you mentioned there just flow—they will join clubs, they will take part in sport, that it is fun, that the environment they're going into is beneficial for their mental health as well as physical health. It is difficult, because some other things do also need to happen.

For example, Daily Active requires the school to be able to make its facilities available pre and post school, not just during the school hours, if it's going to be a proper whole-school approach. There are a few things that need to happen concurrently. There's work going on already with education in terms of that piece. I know it's a priority for the Minister as well in terms of school facilities, the stock that we've currently got, and making that available. So, they're not all mutually exclusive, but there are some that are fundamental.

I think a lot of them do feed off each other. If we can get a generation of young people not thinking about this is the hour, two hours a week that they play sport, but actually just thinking about how differently they live their lives, it will have a massive impact. We know there's data to show that if we keep girls engaged in physical activity beyond 13, they're less likely to be teenage mums and less likely to be in abusive relationships. There are costs to that. They're more likely to stay in school. They're more likely to have career goals. Some of the evidence we've got—there's so much of it—shows that if you teach a child at two and three years old to catch a ball, then literacy and numeracy becomes easier. But it's actually finding a way to help them do that. So, I think that Daily Active is important.

I was at Active Travel England's conference last week. There were 1,000 people in the room—planners, housing developers, all sorts of different provision—talking about just thinking about everything differently, about lighting, about being safe. So, facilities matter, but if women and girls or anybody doesn't feel safe going there, it's a waste of facility. But one of the things they found is, by changing lighting, they're saving councils millions of pounds a year. People are feeling safer. They're being more active. If we can get the joined-up approach working, that is really exciting for what we're going to be able to do. And if you've got more people being active, then that feeds the elite side as well. Because how do you know if you're good at riding a bike unless you do? You need to find ways to try lots of different things, and being active through the day is one way to do that.

Just going back slightly, the second part of my question was what does success look like to you. If we were to measure you at the end, is it, 'This many people now are active in schools', or are we measuring you on every single different priority? Where would you see success?

It's an important point, and it's important for a couple of reasons. One is that we've identified, since we launched our strategy in response to the vision for sport in 2017-18, that we're in a complex system. Just because we've done something, you can't attribute any movement in figures to that action by us. Likewise, with some of our partners, it's very difficult. So, there's an acknowledgement that we're part of a complex system, and that interacts with other systems as well. But it is important that we know that we're doing the right work and doing the right things. We've started a project within our systems-thinking process in the leadership at Sport Wales where we're looking at how we measure impact. But it's not the old-fashioned KPI targets, it's about are we doing the right things. We need to listen to what's happening out there. It's literally a complex situation, but there are methods of doing this now, and there are other bodies in Wales, and certainly in the UK, that are taking this approach.

But fundamentally, we use data and insight to make some decisions, so we need to see shifts in some of that data and insight. There's the school sports survey, the national survey, the active adults part of the national survey. In these kinds of long-term surveys, there needs to be a shift, otherwise questions need to be asked around are we doing the right things. And we need to adjust accordingly if there aren't any shifts. But they're long-term measures. I do understand that politicians do like some short-term measures occasionally as well, and I'm sure we can strike a balance on this. But measuring singular things is not necessarily the right thing to do; it needs to take cognition of the fact that we're in a complex world. But we're willing to work with other agencies on that and come up with the right solution. So, it's a really valid question.

As long as we're moving in the right direction, and we set those foundation levels, and you go, 'Every year we're building on something', that's good for me. Everyone talks about the short term, but often when you're talking in sports and how you build foundational success, it starts from somewhere low, but you know which direction you're going in, and you can measure that progress.

Yes, thank you. It's a live ecosystem, that's the point.

If you're thinking about elite pathways, there might very well be a young person who has watched the Commonwealth Games this year, they've watched Emma Finucane, who thinks, 'I might want to ride a bike', but it could be 20 years before that happens. I think the school sport survey was 122,000—

There were 122,000 individual responses.

I think that's a really important part of measuring what young people want to do, how that shifts, how that changes. That's really exciting. I don't think there's anywhere else that asks young people what they want to do. I'm of an age where, at primary school, we did musical movement, and the world has changed. When I was going through school, there was a very narrow range of sports and physical activity on offer. Now, it's huge, and we've got to listen to young people.

Nick.

Thank you, both. Can I start by saying how impressed I was with your annual report and your accounts, which I had a look at this week? It shows you're doing some really good work. I was particularly impressed with your systems thinking and your user-centred design. I'm really interested as well to talk about the preventative health side of things, and I think we might come on to that later. But the first thing I wanted to ask you about was your new investment model. I think at the last committee meeting you talked about some organisations liking your new model and others not quite so much, but that you were going to do a bit of work on that over the course of the year to review how that's gone. I think the previous committee also got some representations from other organisations. I just wondered how that review has gone along.

Thank you, Nick. We have reviewed elements of the investment approach. I think there might have been some views that we would review the whole thing and start from scratch. It wouldn't take us any further forward, because some people would still like it, but it would be a different group. The people who didn't like it would be another group altogether again. But we did commit to continually reviewing it in elements, and this time we reviewed the school sport survey aspect of it. We've made some changes to that aspect. As Tanni said, we've had an amazing response, thanks to the schools, the teachers, the local authorities and the sport partnerships that did some work for us in trying to get that out there.

In terms of the changes we made, we've made it more accessible in several ways. There's audio narration now, for pupils who are blind or who have low vision. There's a British Sign Language and Makaton translation for pupils who are deaf or hard of hearing. So, we've made some accessibility changes. We've made a design change, so that it was more engaging for young people as well, given the age range. There are interactive games and features to focus and motivate pupils to continue filling in the answers. And finally, there's better access to the data that comes out of this with interactive online dashboards. Those have been launched to the schools. Every school that had pupils that completed the survey gets an individual report on what the pupils in their school have been saying. Local authorities, sport partnerships and national governing bodies will get further information through this interactive dashboard as we analyse the data. Because it's ONS-qualified data, we have to go through certain steps. That's a long-winded answer to say that that's the review we undertook. Because it's such a significant part of the investment approach, that was done for this iteration.

I think it's fair to say that some of the most noise came from—. Everybody agreed with the funding model, then when people got their indicative figures, the bodies got it, there were some that were slightly less keen. As I said earlier, just more money to a particular governing body or partner is not necessarily—. It's actually being fair across the whole system. And part of this transition—. I think previous funding models have been quite transactional. I've seen it, 20 years ago, when you could talk about experience. But you can measure engagement in lots of different ways. A club could say it had 20,000 experiences, but it could have been 15 children, and we're trying to get to everybody. I think it's about the governing bodies and partners thinking differently about how they engage with everybody to keep everyone involved in some way, whether they stay in that sport or go to a different one. It's about being less transactional.

I have to say I have a lot of sympathy with the governing bodies, especially those who saw reductions in funding, because with the pressures everybody's under, clearly, that isn't great. But with a finite sum of money and competing demands, we're always going to be in this world where there's never enough for everybody. So, I do understand the disappointment. And the reaction of some has been very positive, to get on and generate some commercial money or whatever they've done, make some changes or cuts, or, as Tanni said, be innovative.

I do understand that and I have some sympathy with it, but the whole purpose of the investment approach was to reflect our strategic priorities, which was a response to the vision for sport. It does reflect Government priorities as well in terms of the weightings we give. Should the Government change significant priorities, we can then review the investment approach to change those priorities and, therefore, the outcomes. However, those priorities seemingly are not dissimilar at the moment, so we will continue the way we are, but we can change it.

Historically, if someone asked me why we were giving tiddlywinks £50,000, I couldn't really tell them, other than, 'We've always given them £50,000 and it broadly fluctuates somewhat unless there's a major disaster.' Now I can tell you exactly why we give each governing body or partner this or that, with the data-driven aspect of the investment approach. That's really open and transparent. It's not historic trend, it's open and can be argued against, but at least it's there to be able to be argued against.

I won't name the governing body, but we used to give very little to a governing body that became No. 1 in the school sport survey in terms of children and young people telling us what they wanted to do. We were giving it £30,000 a year. That's a disconnect between the needs of the people and the public funding. The investment approach addressed that, but that meant we had to find some money from somewhere else because the finite sum didn't go up.

Thank you.

Thank you. I'm turning to Niamh now, and then Mike.

Going back a couple of steps, something just popped into my mind about what you spoke about with the lottery funding side of things. I was just wondering if you could provide a bit more detail on the financial situation that you could potentially be facing. Have you had conversations with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and others as well? What is that figure looking like for you guys now? It would be handy, just so that we have an overview of what could potentially be coming down the line.

Thank you for that, because it is important. It almost doubles our budget. We're broadly £23 million in revenue, and £16 million-ish in lottery, depending on ticket sales. There's a new licence, so there's a new operator of the lottery in the UK, a company called Allwyn; it's no longer Camelot. Allwyn have promised to double the amount of returns to good causes in the term of the licence, which is a 10-year licence. But they laid out some prospective likely funding scenarios each financial year, and it's behind. To be fair, they had to upgrade 30-year-old technology with the lottery, which they've done successfully, and it did take some cost and some time. So, there is, hopefully, the opportunity that they will manage to deliver what was promised.

But there's a double whammy, if you like: whilst ticket sales might not be what they were hoping for at this point in time, they're facing pressure from the societal lotteries as well, people thinking they'd rather spend their money in that sphere. Well, actually there's a triple—so, that's the double—the triple being that the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport have launched a call for evidence on the National Lottery itself and where the priorities should be. Now, I have to be careful what I say here, but I think that's more of an English issue. I think, when you talk to Scotland and Northern Ireland and Wales, we're content with the distribution of lottery, I'd argue, because it does do what they're trying to address in England, which is local delivery of projects. We give grants of £500 to local schemes, and so do the Arts Council of Wales, et cetera, et cetera. So, the distributors in Wales would argue we don't really need to do it for the reasons DCMS are doing it, but we do worry further down the line that might impact our percentage return, which is that, currently, 0.9 per cent of lottery returns comes to Sport Wales.

It took quite a long time to sort out the new licence. Brian's absolutely right: some of the hardware they were replacing was out of date. They didn't have databases for people. They talked about new games, new ways of engaging young people, but, actually, I think there's generational change as well. So, when there are big rollovers, more people buy tickets. There's a lot of debate about who's buying tickets, where they're from, the socioeconomic background. Young people are thinking differently about this. Potentially, as the housing market's quite difficult, they're looking at different lotteries to maybe win a house or do something very different. Brian's absolutely right about the consultation: it does feel much more English focused. This is part of a much wider discussion on English devolution—you know, the metro mayors. It feels like maybe being able to share the lottery in a different way, and I think that's one of the differences between how we're able to allocate money, and England. We have spoken to DCMS, and we have ongoing discussions with them, not least about the consultation. When it went out, it was quite challenging, in some ways, to ensure that it went out with Welsh translation.

So, one of the conversations I have very frequently is about devolution, and pretty much at every meeting I have to go, 'Sport's devolved'. I think those conversations with Westminster and DCMS are really important, actually, so that we're not seen as something that's just sort of sat on the side of England, which—. I was hoping we wouldn't be having to have that conversation, but sometimes we still do. So, with my role in Sport Wales, I sit on UK Sport. Because the four home countries have very different amounts of money, spend it very differently, we're spending some time educating. We're going up to Aviemore shortly to actually spend a couple of days with the four home countries in UK Sport to actually just get into a lot more of the detail of what we do versus—. And Scotland have got a different problem. They've had a £40 million increase. They've got a different set of issues now, because of the money they now have to distribute in, potentially, new ways.

I think, to give some assurance, the board are across this. The board of Sport Wales are across it. We do have a medium-term plan, depending on the returns from the lottery. But I'd be surprised if we got any significant increase on the £16 million we got last year. But that does mean it constricts us on what we might be able to do with that money. There are rules that come with the spending of lottery money—you have to use it for additionality; you can't use it to replace Government investment. But the board have taken a very pragmatic view on budgeting and the medium-term budget.

And one of our board members chairs our audit and risk committee; they are all over this, because it's so important for us that we're able to track. There's a limit in how much money we can keep, but also we want to make sure that we're financially making really sensible decisions.

Diolch.

Okay. Thank you. I'm going to go to Mike, and then Paul, okay.

I have two very brief points. I think that you probably both remember when 'Walk, wheel or cycle a mile a day' was the mantra for schools. That's disappeared. Some schools are still doing it, but it's certainly not something that either you, the Welsh Government or anybody else is talking about like they used to. The second one is facilities paid for out of public money locked away when the school gates get closed, 3G and 4G pitches especially; you mentioned it briefly earlier. Are you putting any pressure on anybody you can to make sure that publicly funded sports facilities are available to the public and not locked away by school headteachers?

Can I pick up the 'Walk, wheel and cycle' first? So, I think this is one of the interesting things about how terminology changes. 'Walk, wheel and cycle' is still very much used in England, but, for us, some of our language has moved to the Daily Active. If we could unlock facilities behind school gates, that would give lots more options in terms of what we're trying to do. We'd have to get through—depending what time the gates are unlocked—safeguarding, staffing, lots of things. Actually, are we trying to—? Is there provision for young people after school to stay in school? There are lots of things where it feels like we're kind of spinning plates on this.

All I was going to say on the pitches is that there are a number of pitches that probably need upgrading, and what is now okay to put in is very different from what was okay to put in 10 years ago. So, I think the facilities consultation is really important for us to really clearly understand what's out there. Because we'll know a lot of it, the governing bodies will, but actually knowing what's behind school gates is really important to have the right offer. I'd really strongly support that, but school gates is probably an education issue.

It definitely is, but there's a role, certainly, for us to advocate. We're not a regulator, so we have no powers in that respect, but what I would say is, historically, during the twenty-first century schools process, as it was called then, we weren't consulted, but that improved towards the end of that project. It's now, I think, community-focused schools, or whatever the term is, which, hopefully, will expand to primary school provision. We are consulted. It's still not a statutory requirement, but officials do tend to consult with us and our partners, certainly the sport partnerships that we've established, on that whole point about being open for the community. They're fantastic assets that can deliver huge impact for the locality, and I'm sure the schools themselves, provided there's a sensible user agreement approach, would want people in their community to benefit from it as well. So, there are a few things. We can't regulate, but we can certainly advocate, and we can certainly put pressure to make sure we're consulted as much as possible.

Please will you start advocating?

Yes. It's in the whole-school approach of Daily Active. It is one of the eight domains that come—. User agreements are one of the things a school needs to have in place. Because, yes, without the facilities, it's very difficult to get some of the engagement that we want, for lots of different reasons: safeguarding, safety, accessibility et cetera.

Oh, one other thing, sorry, Chair—

—if I may.

All this discussion about facilities—one of the main objectives at the moment for improving the facilities base is for equality. So, if you talk to the Football Association of Wales or the Welsh Rugby Union, or any other governing body that has a stock of facilities, they were built by men for men, and that needs to change. There is a groundswell of change happening, but it does come at a cost. So, I'd commend the partners that we've got that are making those kinds of changes, because they're well overdue and they're desperately needed.

Women need different toilet facilities to men.

All sorts of things. We shouldn't assume that just because it works for the male part of society, it will work for the female part of society. And that untapped talent, that untapped potential for sport, is 50 per cent untapped.

Paul.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to come back very, very quickly to your funding model. Now, my understanding is that your funding model relies heavily on data and evidence when determining investment. How do you make sure that that doesn't actually create a disadvantage for smaller grass-roots organisations, particularly in rural or deprived communities, which may have fewer resources to collect data and demonstrate impact than the larger organisations?

Diolch. That's a valid question. And I think, in response, I'd say that the data and insight aspect of our investment is for the larger bodies that we invest in. That's a big part of our investment and we want to get it right. But it is also the reason why we open up the funding for community sports as well, and organisations, so that they can apply. We do take rurality into context in terms of the investment approach, but we also then prioritise applications through the community aspect, depending on things like rurality or economic deprivation or women and girls or ethnic diversity. There are priorities made.

But it is very hard to shift the dial on some of the smaller governing bodies when the finite sum is what it is, because it could be an area we look at if we get increased investment, but it is difficult for the smaller governing bodies, I appreciate, because we do ask a lot of them as well. They do have to hit a lot of safeguarding standards et cetera. We do our best, but we are aware that they would regard themselves as being underfunded.

And you've made it clear today, of course, that funding affects your priorities. How has the reduction in your budget actually affected your priorities and your strategic objectives?

I don't think it has. I think what it's affected is the outcome, as in the sum—the moneys we can distribute. I guess we've made some internal cost savings, we've made reductions in budgets over the period, albeit with increases in capital. But the priorities have stayed the same, pretty much. I don't think they've adjusted much. That's the whole point of the long-term approach, really—that you don't shift them too massively in the short term. So, I think it's more the outcomes than the priorities that have been impacted.

I know this is really hard, but a longer-term commitment for funding—. So, we're year on year, aren't we?

We are, and we make a long-term indicative commitment to our partners, but that's difficult if we don't know what we're getting, Tanni's right.

And it is difficult, we get that, but it would just give us a bit more stability.

Okay. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I want to turn to Mair now, and then we'll turn to Rebeca, who is waiting online.

Thank you. I just wanted to refer back. You mentioned Daily Active, and, by the way, I've just been to Ysgol y Creuddyn to visit their 3G pitch, which is excellent and is open to the community outside of school hours. I think that point in terms of needing to plan those facilities to be suitable for everyone, and for girls and women, is very important, because there were two women who have played for Wales there on the day to launch the pitch. But, in terms of the Daily Active that you've talked a little bit about, I've noticed that it doesn't appear in the programme for government, although it was emphasised as one of the priority areas in the manifesto and the plan for the first 100 days. So, what discussions have you had with the new Welsh Government about that particular vision for Daily Active, and what barriers are there, do you think, that could be barriers to implementation on the ground?

Thank you, Mair. We had a conversation with the Minister last week, Tanni and myself, a biannual—what is biannual in Welsh—a biannual meeting with the Minister, and we raised it and we said it was clearly not in the document that came out. But the Minister was quite certain, because it was in 'The First 100 Days' and the manifesto, that it was still important. For me, the opportunity to participate in the new strategy is the way that we get that emphasis on the Daily Active, and other things as well. The daily mile was in 'The First 100 Days' as well, I think, and we work closely with Welsh Athletics with regard to the daily mile, because it might be part of Daily Active and not in addition to it. So, we're quite confident that it's still important, but we have an opportunity, as do hopefully our partners and other bodies who are going to respond to the consultation, to ensure that it's important and that it comes out as an important aspect in the strategy. If we have a conversation after the strategy is developed and it's not important, well, then my view would be slightly different.

Thanks.

Okay, we'll go to Rebeca now online.

Diolch yn fawr. I think there's a really exciting opportunity when it comes to the preventative health agenda by working with our schools and young people, just to ensure that they have a better understanding of nutrition and exercise. I know the Swansea City AFC Foundation in my area do some really good work with local schools. I'm just wondering, in terms of Sport Wales, what discussions have been had regarding this opportunity with the Welsh Government and other stakeholders. Also, what work is being done to stop the drop-off in participation when children actually leave a school setting? Diolch.

Diolch, Rebeca. It's an interesting question. Sport Wales is not necessarily a deliverer. We invest in partners to deliver, and what we give through our new investment approach is the flexibility for partners to focus on particular areas that they think are important, given the vision for sport in Wales. So, there will be some sports governing bodies that do a lot of work in their communities, like you've just mentioned with the Swans. I know Ospreys in the Community, Cardiff City FC Foundation, Wrexham AFC Foundation, and even the large governing bodies like the WRU and the FAW do direct work in the communities along those kinds of lines, but it does vary because it does depend what's needed in those areas.

So, we definitely don't see it as our role to instruct people to do anything in particular like that. But hopefully, when it comes to the power of sport, it's fairly obvious to people what can be done in their areas through the medium of sport and physical activity, and it's great to hear that someone like the Swans is doing that kind of work. Hopefully that is in response to needs in their community. And I'm sure it is, and I'm sure it will be impactful.

I think that's where sport partnerships are really important, because Daily Active might end up being delivered in quite different ways depending where you are in Wales, and how far away you live from school and things like that. Although we talk so much about young people, it's our ability to impact things like social prescribing and have conversations around that. Actually, healthcare professionals need to be fitter and healthier as well. It's not just what training teachers or volunteers get, actually it's somebody who's involved in social prescribing, how they do it and what options they know about in their local area. So, the sport partnership, because of who sits around the table on the sport partnership, that has a massive potential as well.

Yes, it's worth noting that those sport partnerships, around the decision-making table for them—there are five of them—they will have health boards, housing associations, they'll have higher education or education, police and crime, as well as sport development and local authority representation. So, they can make those kinds of decisions about priorities in their area. Now, that is a very powerful—I don't know what—quintuplet of people, organisations that deliver more directly than we do as a national organisation. But we will work together closely with them and we will invest in them to deliver.

Sorry, I forgot to say as well, something else we're doing is a diary study with 16 to 24-year-olds, to understand why they drop out of sport. Because we make big assumptions about why anybody drops out, but actually it could be quite different. So, I think that's quite interesting, again, asking people themselves, not just assuming why they're no longer involved.

Can we go to questions regarding the state of facilities with Louise, please?

Yes, I wanted to ask about the review that's been commissioned, and presuming you are running it.

Yes, we're leading on it.

You're leading on that review, okay. And is that just asking what we've got now, or is it asking people: 'This is what you've got; what do you want?' Is it a big ask? And are we talking down to every little club, or are you going through sports associations?

We've agreed with Government that there'll be three stages. We're obviously at stage 1. The first part of that stage was desk-based research on the information we already have available to us, either through governing bodies, local authorities, sport partnerships or anybody else in this field—maybe even commercial organisations. So, we've done that stage. We've done the desk-based stage. What we've now done is gone back out to our partners to say, 'This is what we found. What are you finding? What are the gaps? What information have you got that's needed to complete this piece of work?' We've set a deadline for responses to that of 23 October.

At that point, we will set up a steering group with Welsh Government officials in the sport policy unit, which is stage 2, which would commission more around the bits that you've just asked about—what are the gaps? What is needed based on what we know is in existence? And then, the third stage would be likely to—I don't want to lead it on—produce some sort of platform where people can update all the time as to where we are with facilities in Wales, some sort of open-format platform to be able to update their facility, either requirements or what is now in place.

It's a fairly big piece of work, but stage 1 should be fairly manageable. Stages 2 and 3 are unknowns at the minute until we know.

So, when the Government's got all this—and you can't particularly answer that, but can I have your opinion about it—information to hand, some sports require a lot of investment to do the sport, for example, swimming. I know there's such a backlog with swimming pools, and we know what local authorities are struggling with: turning the temperatures down and things to keep them open. That's obviously an expensive sport, whereas those other sports—I always talk about orienteering, because that's my favourite—don't actually need a lot of funding at all, and participation is obviously not as much. So, what's the Government going to do with that information? Have you got any idea of what they're going to do with all of that knowledge of where the money's needed?

I think you were right when you said that I don't know what I would be able to say to that question. I think it will be a useful tool for us though, because we will still, hopefully, should we get capital funding from Government, need to make decisions on applications that we've got or prioritise which areas we want to invest in. Is it 3Gs? Is it energy saving? What is it that we want to do? Is it cycling routes? So, it will still be useful for us to make decisions, but in terms of the actual amount that we might get given to be able to invest and how the Government use it, I don't know. Hopefully it will be useful for them.

Is there anything glaring that's an obvious, 'Oh, we're really missing on that'? Is there anything that's come out so far?

I would—[Interruption.] Sorry.

Sorry. I was just going to jump in in terms of—

It'll give me time to think.

—solar panels. There are a number of clubs that have said they've been saved because of that investment, and it's helping inform us on what else we can do next, which I think is really important. It would be interesting, in the next stage—. I think there's an interesting conversation about what people want and what people need. I've used this example loads of times before: my first athletics club was Bridgend Athletics club, where we had this grass track and we went to Swansea twice a year. That was a million years ago. Actually, what they built quite a long time ago was a 300m track, which, if you talk to any hardline athletics fan, the thought of a 300m athletics track would be, 'Oh', you know. But it's being able to balance that, because there isn't a finite amount of money. Oh, gosh, this was years ago, looking at facilities, probably—. I was going to say it was more than 25 years ago, when you went to each sport and said, 'What do you want?', they all wanted too much, and you ended up crossing over and there'd be athletics tracks three miles from each other and all sorts of things. So, I think it gives us this helicopter view of what's there. We know about a lot of it, but we don't know everything. But, actually, the updating of the data is really important.

It's key, otherwise we'll be in this position in another term of Government, or whatever, because we're not sure of the data.

Having had time to think a little, in terms of the glaring gaps—. I've got to be careful because each partner would probably have a different view. So, if I picked a governing body, they would say, 'This is the glaring gap.' So, we have to be careful. But there will be gaps. There will be gaps in each of the governing bodies' priorities, I'm sure.

We did a study during COVID with a commercial company that estimated the gap. I'll use the words 'fag packet', although it's probably not the most appropriate in a sport committee—

We get it. [Laughter.]

It was a very back-of-the-envelope study, which at that point in time, back in 2020-21, was identifying a gap of £0.25 billion in terms of investment into local facilities.

A quarter of a billion?

Yes. Things like leisure centre stock renewal, regional centres that were built when the lottery was flush, and we built a lot of regional performance facilities. The national centre in Cardiff, a 1970s building, has fallen way behind now to be competitive with our opponents. The figure's likely to be higher than that, I'd have thought, because everything's doubled since then in terms of capital cost.

You will get different views on what a glaring gap is, but it will at least give us some information that decisions can be taken upon, and, a bit like the investment approach, at least you can defend your decision based on data and insight rather than gut and emotion.

Thank you very much. Can I go to Niamh now on participation?

Yes. Just quickly as well, I've got one more question on the state of facilities, if that's okay. Just quickly, I just want to ask a question—

When we talk about the state of facilities, I was wondering about community clubs at the moment because, as we know, they're the ones who are really feeling the direct impact when it comes to the cost-of-living crisis. I know you've mentioned it already, but I've heard as well how impactful the energy saving grant was that Sport Wales provided to so many of these community groups. As we know, energy bills could potentially increase by 25 per cent come January again, so I was just wondering what your overview was of what community clubs and groups are facing at the moment. Can you give us—obviously short, because we haven't got a lot of time—a short picture of that? I think it's really important.

I'd say I admire their resilience, because they are facing lots of things but they continue as best they can. They may need to make changes and cuts and cut back a little on what they do, but most of them are very robust in their approach rather than anything else. Resilience is an issue that we're working with governing bodies in particular on, in terms of: can we do more to generate income? Have we been innovative enough to help these kinds of clubs? Can they do more to encourage commercial revenue? We are keeping the energy savings grant going at the moment. We're learning a lot. In that initial stage of the energy savings grant, we just provided solar panels, now we won't do them unless—we encourage them to put in battery usage as well, because it makes it so much more usable and efficient. So, we're learning as well about what does and doesn't work. But they are resilient, they are really resilient. I think it's the nature of people who are involved in sport and physical activity: they give it a go, whatever. We want to make it as easy for them as possible, but there will be restrictions. We're hearing good and bad about the sector at the minute.

It's hard—cost of living, people under pressure, volunteering time—it's not easy, but the number of volunteers that we have who are involved in sport in Wales is actually hugely positive. It's about how we can support them to do more.

The follow-up on that is to do with participation and it ties in with the cost of living as well. The area that I represent is quite a deprived area: Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni. I feel like there's been really great movement when it comes to getting women and girls into sport, I've seen that across the board from rugby to everything, but I still feel personally that there's a significant gap in deprivation when it comes to people from deprived areas participating in sport. I was just wondering how you guys are trying to address that. I know you're looking at different ways of trying—. It's so difficult. I can appreciate it's really hard. There are so many different barriers as well when it comes to transport, uniforms. But how are you as Sport Wales looking at that and trying to address it as best that you can?

One thing is the investment approach, that it does prioritise deprivation. Then, we allow our partners to prioritise that as well, which they hopefully will. We do something called 'what matters' conversations with our partners, so that we can explain what matters to us as a national organisation, deprivation being one of them, and then they can explain what they're doing in that area or maybe what might be more important to them. We have those kinds of communications and interactions. But it is difficult. Tanni touched on something earlier, which is being innovative—partners being innovative in their approach, what they ask of people and what they're presenting to people. Can they make it affordable? Does it have to be costly? A simple example, and it might still be a barrier for some people, but if you look at Tennis Wales and what they did with their court access, you can now access a court for £4.50. You don't need to be a member anywhere, you just download an app. Clearly, if you've got digital poverty, then it's still a barrier. But I use it as an example of thinking differently about what you provide, and I think that's what we need to encourage. We'd be willing to help, but we don't have all of the answers. I think that the people in the communities have better answers than us, so I'm sure sport partnerships will help in that regard as well.

There are lots of sport governing bodies that are changing their thinking. You mentioned what women and girls are allowed to wear. There are sports that now allow women and girls to wear shorts, which they didn't before. A challenge is we're not directly delivering, but some of the impact I think we can have is in some of our work on menstruation, which is working across a number of governing bodies. We're actually talking about things like that; it's educating young women, but also young men, about these things. These are conversations we couldn't have had—nobody would have had—a few years ago. I think that bringing that level of knowledge, understanding and support just helps across the piece.

We're also doing something called partner progress and learning. We bring partners together to learn from each other. Nick mentioned the annual report. The narrative and the qualitative pieces in that annual report are just a snapshot. The partners are brought together to learn what they can do together, do differently or learn from each other as well. That's another method of trying to shift the dial in these areas where barriers do exist.

What would you say, in your personal opinion as well as that of Sport Wales, is the main barrier for people in deprived areas? I know there are so many, but what would you say is that distinct one you see year on year coming out, or maybe getting worse, as the main barrier to sport for people in deprived areas?

I'm not sure there's one thing. It's very hard to be physically very active if you can't afford decent nutrition. You can't outrun a bad diet. I think there is a challenge on food and the cost of living. Some of it comes back to the fact that, if you're a family that's struggling to survive, you're probably not going to be thinking about physical activity as something to do. You've got a family that is busy working and, you know, public transport—. It ends up being a mix, which is why I think we have to take this sort of helicopter approach to look at things differently. If, where you live, there isn’t a bus stop to get you somewhere, or you can't even afford the bus, but it's a 3-mile walk at night with bad lighting, this is going to be so far away from what you even think you can do.

I think your question, in effect, exemplifies the fact that it's a complex system. There is no one thing. There are lots of things and maybe they will differ from Blaenau Gwent to Conwy to Caerdydd, and even within Caerdydd there'll be differences. I think that's the reason we devolve to sport partnerships, to some extent, to look at what they see as their priorities in their area and not dictate to them, other than through broad priority examples for them.

I think I’d come back to saying that the sector has been amazingly resilient, given everything we started with, in terms of the cost of living, the challenges and the financial situation. I'm really proud of our sector. I think it delivers way above the investment that goes into it, and our economic studies and our social return on investment studies with Sheffield Hallam University demonstrate that in spades. I think there's a challenge for us all to stay positive about the sector in these difficult times. I'm sure, with the consultation, if we all get together—. We're a small nation; we should be able to join up a little bit better than we do sometimes, and that can be our superpower. I'm optimistic that we can improve the situation for everybody concerned, and we can still win medals as well, Tanni, can’t we?

Absolutely, yes, we can do all of that. I think one of the things that's really important where we're based is that you see everything from the boxers, fitness, yoga, we've got para fencing next week, Europeans—there's this constant reminder about why we're doing what we're doing. I think there is a bit of, in both our introductions to the annual report, saying 'thank you' to the people who do it, who are from hugely different backgrounds and contribute. It is really positive. Sitting in the middle of Sophia Gardens, we can think about all those barriers, but it comes back to sport partnerships. I think as a sector we're very solution driven, and it's finding the right key to unlock it.

Thank you very much for that.

Thank you very much. There is one other question that we wanted to ask. Mair, we're going to come to you for that, if that's okay. The final question, from Mair.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. You've touched on women and girls in sports and things around the lighting of facilities, and so on. There's evidence that's been presented to the committee raising concerns about safeguarding in sports, especially the experience of women and girls. Are you confident that current arrangements are strong enough to safeguard women and girls in sports in Wales, and is there a need to do more to ensure consistent standards across governing bodies?

We're very mindful of that, and we continue to work on it through the Child Protection in Sport Unit and the Ann Craft Trust. We've seen lots of examples over the years where governing bodies have had issues. I think we're very mindful in Wales that, just because most of the issues have been with a UK or an English lens, it's really important that we don't get complacent about any of the issues.

I think there's a lot of training and a lot of support that goes out for the governing bodies and partners. They obviously have governance arrangements. It's something that we've just always got to be aware of. I think, if you look at it, probably the worst example I've ever seen is what happened in the States with gymnastics and Athlete A. People didn't report it for years and years. So, you can have policies, you can have processes, they are really important, but it's also a feeling that there's somewhere that you can put your hand up and say, 'This is not right'. I'm really keen that we keep working, whether it's at governing body level or club level, to support that kind of safe space.

But also, I think there's always more that we can do. A certain amount of my work on the athlete pathway is actually educating young people and coaches about what is a positive relationship in coaching and sport and what's not. Because when we've seen issues at UK level, it's actually been young people not understanding what a positive relationship is, and it's some of the drive for medals, which we've moved back on, because you can get lots and lots of medals with a really unhealthy set of relationships. I think you can win medals and have really positive relationships. But it's something that I'm really mindful of all the time.

It's central to a lot of our work. Tanni mentioned that we've got contractual arrangements with both the NSPCC Child Protection in Sport Unit and the Ann Craft Trust. For those who don't know, the Ann Craft Trust is for vulnerable adults, and the NSPCC is obviously children in sport. We've got those contractual arrangements where they provide resources, facilities and support to governing bodies and some of our other partners. So, there's lots of activity in that area, but we are aware of—. We've got a meeting, it's either this week or next week, with Kyniska, who I know wrote a letter to the Welsh Government. We've got a good relationship with them, but it is challenging; they challenge us and they challenge the sector, quite rightly, as Tanni said. We're also aware of the independent safeguarding governance review with Jan Pickles and we've been feeding into that. We have a governance unit at Sport Wales and child protection is an important area within that governance framework. So, they are connected with that review. We aren't a regulator, which makes it difficult, but we do make it an important part of our arrangements with partners. If we are to invest in them, they have to have arrangements in place for safeguarding; but that can always improve and be better and develop.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Thank you for your evidence. A transcript of the meeting will be sent to you to check that it's an accurate representation of what you've said. So, thank you very much for that.

Thank you, all.

Thank you.

We'll move on now to item 6, papers to note. Do Members have any comments on any of the papers to note? Louise.

I just wanted to have a discussion around the letter about Clic and S4C. There's a lot of questions and it's going to take some time for officers to respond to them, so we need to discuss how much time officers are going to put into it. From what I can gather, it's sort of—. I can understand the argument on both sides. So, I think that does need some discussion outside of the meeting.

Secondly, the related courses. My only question was—. It's about these arts courses that some children—they're not children anymore, are they, they're young adults—have applied to be on for this September, which we're now in, and they've not been able to get the funding. What the letter says to me is that there's only a small number of courses that don't have that funding allocated to them, and they may never have that funding allocated to them, but the majority of courses do. So, it looks like that's going to be sorted out, I think. I don't think we need to respond to that, unless I've read it any differently.

We can discuss it later.

And then just the draft budget. Again, I'm not clear as to what exactly they want from this committee.

Okay. We can discuss that.

Are Members content to note the papers that we have? Yes, everybody's content.

We'll now proceed in private for the remainder of the meeting. We'll wait to hear that we're in private session.