Early Years, Children, Young People and Education Committee

Nicola Edwards, deputy director for equity in education.

Thank you very much. And Louise.

Louise Brown, head of additional learning needs reform in the Welsh Government.

Thank you. A very warm welcome to you all. I am aware, Minister, that you would like to address the committee. There are a number of issues we want to cover and a number of questions we want to ask, so I've been quite strict in terms of timing, I'm afraid. So, I'm happy to allow you three minutes, if that's okay. Thanks.

That is very acceptable, and thank you for that direction. Before starting, I would also like to place on the record that I have close members of my family working in education.

Good morning to you all and thank you very much for the invitation to come to talk to you. The committee is obviously responsible for very important work scrutinising the work of Ministers, and I am truly looking forward to having the opportunity to look at these issues and for you to scrutinise them, because we are all aware that this is of shared interest to you as Members and more broadly in Wales as well.

Since coming into post in May, I have visited schools from Anglesey to Torfaen and I am continuing to do so every week. I have committed to going to visit a school every week because I believe that keeping that connection alive is very important. And also, it's an opportunity to see the broader contribution beyond education that schools are making, from schemes like Food and Fun to the sometimes hard work that they do in ensuring that learners feel as if they belong in their communities and in their schools.

I know that our commitment to raising standards is dependent, entirely dependent, on a committed, empowered and passionate workforce, and that is why engaging with the workforce will be so important as we push ahead with this work.

Without the workforce we obviously cannot get to where we would like to be, and it is important that their views are heard and acted upon. We know too that there are challenges with funding, with ALN and with school standards. Last month's Programme for International Student Assessment results made clear that there is plenty of work to do, but improving learner outcomes is a shared endeavour and reliant on the collective efforts of all key partners.

The new 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan' sits at the heart of this and champions a very clear nought to 16 approach to raising standards—not all the work of schools, therefore; there are wider parties here who can influence and support. It does set out stronger national expectations, makes clear our commitment to systematic synthetic phonics and provides greater clarity around progression, transition and the early identification of need.

But the publication of the plan is not the end of the journey, it is the beginning of a renewed national effort to improve educational outcomes for all. The work ahead will require persistence, consistency and collaboration, and it will require us to use evidence well and to listen and respond to constructive challenge from people such as yourselves. Diolch yn fawr.

Minister, your three minutes are up, I'm afraid.

I'm ready to answer the questions, no problem.

I gave you some leeway there, but no problem. Thank you very much for those opening remarks. It is of assistance to us in terms of setting the context, so I appreciate you doing that. I'll take the first question. What I would like to mention is that we have allocated our questions into themes, but clearly those themes overlap at times. So, if you see that we are perhaps straying from one theme to another in an agile manner, that's the purpose of this morning's discussion, to be very agile in our questioning.

The first question from me is focused on school improvement, raising standards and pupil attainment. We've heard from you in relation to PISA, and we've heard from Estyn in terms of their annual report. We also know that 27 of the 173 secondary schools, which is 16 per cent, are in one of the two statutory categories of causing concern. Fifteen of them are in special measures, and significant improvement is required in 12 of them. Raising standards in our schools, as I know very well, is one of the objectives of this new Government's programme for government. So, what assurance do you have that school improvement services led by Dysgu and local authorities can support this objective? What other mechanisms will you put in place in order to improve standards in our secondary schools specifically?

Thank you very much for the question. I think it is an important one and it's also an opportunity to reinforce the central message that I've been putting forward since starting in post, namely the importance of all of the support services for schools, and Estyn as well. We have strived to ensure that we all are agreed on the direction that we need to take. For example, in terms of the 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan', there will be a delivery board that I will be chairing to ensure that we are going in the correct direction, and those key support partners will be part of that board. We will therefore agree on the direction, we will see that progress towards the targets, we will scrutinise those outcomes, and we will ensure that these elements are aligned on every occasion. In terms of secondary schools, I know from the response that I've had from them already that the work that we're going to be doing on the year 6 indicator is important to ensure that they and that we can move confidently forward in providing the support that's needed at the appropriate time for them as well.

I don't know, Georgina, whether you want to add to that.

Yes, just a couple of things on the wider Estyn framework and the work that they've been doing. The inspection regime started two years ago, so they're in the third year, and some of those schools hadn't been inspected since pre-COVID, so I think some of it reflects some of the issues that have been over the last period. There's been quite a lot of work done around helping schools to help each other through peer support and trying to build a collaborative model much more widely across the school sector. We're hopeful that some of that will really help some of those schools to improve as well in the wider sense.

Thank you. Art, I'll come to you next.

Bore da, Minister. What I want to go into in slightly more depth is to understand what your future planning is going to be around the PISA results and what you said earlier about your plan for literacy and numeracy going forward. The latest cycle in the Estyn report states it's the lowest it's been in Wales since first participation in 2006. Part of their statement is quite damning, that ongoing weaknesses in literacy, teaching quality and leadership, particularly in secondary schools, are limiting the progressive ability of our learners. What I'd like to know is: what your plan is, when the plan is due to take action, and when we're going to start to see the results.

Thank you. I think what's important and what is a change is the fact that we will have a specific national indicator around literacy and numeracy that will give confidence, or give data and information to us, to ensure that we are going in the right direction in terms of literacy and numeracy. We can use more effectively the data that actually already exists in the system to do this. As when I gave my statement to the Senedd a couple of weeks ago, I am confident and I am committed to showing, during this Senedd term, that we are making progress against that national indicator.

At the same time, it's important that we understand the literacy and numeracy skills of learners as they enter our school system, and that's why identifying a credible, well-informed baseline, which is the work we are doing now, will be important and why, too, I'm working very closely with the Deputy First Minister on the childcare offer and the support for learners, even before they enter the school system, to understand the support they need, and also, then, the progress that they are making.

The third thing is that we will determine, at the level of qualifications, the progress we want to see at that point. So, at every stage and every transition, particularly, we'll have data against which we can measure our progress. And also, the second very important part of that will be that that will enable us to target support at the workforce effectively, which is why Dysgu, which is our professional learning arm, will be part of the delivery board, and aligning all of these things. Because you need the measures, you need to demonstrate progress, but you also need the support to make sure that this is something that the system can respond to.

Diolch.

Minister, could I just add to a point—

Yes, of course.

—that you made previously around the consistency across schools? As you've mentioned previously, there are some excellent schools in Wales that are doing really, really well, but one of the things that you've talked about is how you make sure that there is a consistently high quality of support within schools. The 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan' really talks about what schools will receive to improve in a consistent way across all of them, so that the new expectations of learning, the baseline assessment, the year 6 indicator, the national professional learning offer, all of that starts to create a consistent, coherent national model, for which all schools will have exactly the same offer across Wales.

Diolch yn fawr. Lynne Neagle, os gwelwch yn dda.

Good morning. I wanted to ask about PISA. I was incredibly disappointed by the PISA results, and obviously I'm well aware of the amount of effort that went into encouraging engagement in PISA in this round, and I don't subscribe to what some people have said, which is, 'Oh, it's just one indicator.' I think the Government was committed to PISA, and therefore we have to take the results seriously.

What I specifically wanted to ask about is that, on the day of the PISA release, Andreas Schleicher, who is head of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for education, said that

'England had pursued "coherent and consistent policies in education" which were "conducive to producing good learning outcomes".

'"That's not what we've seen in countries like Scotland or Wales to that extent"'.

Now, I'm very supportive of the relationship with the OECD, but I was very surprised to see that in such stark terms, given how closely the OECD has worked with the Welsh Government. They came and did a two-day learning event with us when I was Minister. So, what I wanted to ask is: what is your response to what Andreas has said? Have you had any further discussions with the OECD about those comments? Has there been feedback that maybe the Senedd isn't aware of from the OECD that we need to be picking up on? Because he is clearly saying there that we aren't getting it right.

Thank you. I agreed with one element of his assessment, certainly, in that I think a renewed, long-term, sustained focus on literacy and numeracy will be helpful in our system, and I would expect that to influence the scores in the PISA results in 2030.

I have engaged with the OECD. There are two things that are important, I think, in terms of PISA. It does give you a level, as you will know, of granular detail, which will be helpful in informing our work, particularly in relation to learners who require additional stretch. Fitting that into our literacy and numeracy plan will be important, because there is something important there that they have identified. In my engagement, post PISA, with the OECD, they have also been clear that, for example, they wouldn't advise beginning again with curriculum reform, and that it is the sustained focus that they feel would be helpful.

There is also something more broadly interesting happening with PISA. While we have focused on ourselves, legitimately and perfectly properly, given that this is not where we want to be, and we need to move in a much more favourable direction for the future, all PISA results have gone down, all over the world. So, there is something interesting going on with education systems everywhere. The early indications from the OECD are around the use of screens, for example. So, there is a broader conversation to be had here about what's happening in education across the world, while we make good use of what the OECD can tell us in terms of granular detail. But ripping it up and starting again was not part of the advice I've had from them.

Lynne, are you happy with the response? We will move on, if so. Is there anyone else who wanted to come in on this theme? Because I would like to move forward to the next topic, which is Curriculum for Wales and qualifications. I have Sam down for this theme. Are you ready to come in on this, Sam, with your question?

Thanks, Chair. Good morning, Cabinet Minister. Thanks for being with us today. I'm sure it's an absolute pleasure.

It is.

Absolutely. I noted the shift in number of pupils picking up religion, values and ethics as a GCSE in the last few years. In 2020, around 15,000 pupils were taking religious education or RVE as a GCSE. That has nearly halved now—it's around 8,000 pupils at GCSE level. Does that concern you at all, and do you think there's any particular reason why that might be the case?

I don't know whether anybody else has more detailed information on this. It's not something that I was aware of in that level of detail, but I'm very happy to look at it. I suspect that there are a lot of reasons why that might be the case, and speculating on them probably wouldn't be helpful, unless somebody else has got more information on it.

The qualification [correction: subject] is, of course, a mandatory part of the curriculum. It is about something very important, which is building children's awareness and understanding of different beliefs and engaging critically with these. They are required to be—which, in our increasingly complex society, I think, is really important—objective, critical and pluralistic. But it does also recognise, and the curriculum must recognise, for example, that the religious traditions of Wales are, in the main, Christian. So, there are an awful lot of elements to this qualification that are important in building the knowledge and understanding of pupils in our schools. I will be interested in looking in more detail at the reasons.

Perhaps if I may, Chair, just expand on a few points there. I think you're right around the importance of the subject in terms of the ever-polarising world we have. I think there's an opportunity in schools to support children to understand other sides of opinion, other beliefs, and to perhaps be more empathetic towards those. I think there's a responsibility on Government to grasp the nettle on that issue as well. This is just one indicator; I appreciate that RVE can be discussed and considered elsewhere. But I think it is an important indicator—whether children are choosing to pursue this as a qualification or not. You'll be aware, of course, that the short course GCSE no longer exists here in Wales. I think that is part of the reason why these numbers aren't where they could or should be. You said you perhaps aren't all over the detail of this specific part right now, and that's absolutely acceptable, but I wonder if it's something you're happy to take away and perhaps come back with in terms of further consideration.

Yes, absolutely.

Sam, I was just going to suggest that very thing: that we request further information from the Minister following today, if you're content with that.

May I just ask on this particular point again? I think part of the reason also is the ability to recruit teachers in RE. You'll be aware, of course, that places like Cardiff University have rolled back on some of their RE or Theology teacher-training courses as well, so I guess there's a broader picture, with your Deputy Minister, to consider here as well, which I think you accept as well.

Yes, absolutely. I'm happy to look into that in more detail and come back to you. As you indicate, there's probably a multiplicity of reasons why this is now the case. But diolch, it's an interesting thing to look into.

Diolch, Sam. Mair Rowlands.

In terms of the Curriculum for Wales, that has been implemented for several years. What is the strongest evidence that the Government has that it's improving the outcomes and experiences of learners? Are you confident that schools get enough time and support to implement the curriculum fully, and to cope with the other challenges and pressures that are facing staff in our schools?

Thank you very much. There is work ongoing to evaluate the curriculum. I think during this Senedd term, we will have more detail to discuss on that. But one of the things that has become apparent is that there is a need for greater clarity and support for the workforce to implement the curriculum in full, and that's why we are committed to conducting a review. I'm currently working on the shape of that, and I am inviting experts to be involved in that work over the ensuing period. I think the curriculum was introduced in 2022 in full, so there is some work to be done to look at its impact in schools.

In terms of the workload that people associate with it, I would argue that that would be part of the focus of this review, because uncertainty about its demands is something that can add specifically to workload and anxiety, where people are concerned about whether they are working effectively and doing what is expected of them. So, we will take a meaningful look at this and ensure that those are particular elements in this review so that we can provide that assurance. And then, having provided that assurance, we can align the support for the workforce in order to implement the curriculum. Because essentially, I do think that the principles underpinning the curriculum, in terms of the kind of learners we want in Wales, are things that we could all support and that do have merit, but there is work to be done in order to implement the curriculum in a clearer way for the workforce and for broader stakeholders too. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Art, you had a question on the curriculum.

[Inaudible.]

Okay, excellent. Are there any further questions on the curriculum from anyone at this point? Yes, Catherine. Thank you.

Good morning. I have asked in the Chamber about this, and this covers the numeracy and literacy strategy and the Curriculum for Wales. As you've already said, there is an element of overworking of teachers at the moment with regard to the Curriculum for Wales. I just wondered how you're going to introduce this numeracy and literacy strategy. I've had a look at your document this morning, 'Principles for teaching language and literacy in Wales'—it's quite a lengthy document. So, how are you going to expect teachers to keep up with the Curriculum for Wales workload and implement this, which is quite lengthy as well?

I'm just worried about that work balance. I know you've addressed a little bit of it, but how are you going to integrate the two so that teachers going forward—? We've got teachers coming out—. In terms of the retention of student teachers, they're dropping out because they're not able to cope with the Curriculum for Wales and now these strategies on top of that. I'm just concerned about how that is going to be managed for teachers. And our young teachers, who sometimes face a lack of support because the other members staff in their environment and settings are struggling with their own workload, so they are not able to support—. So, how are you planning to do that?

Thank you. The workload in schools is much more complex than the Curriculum for Wales, as you will know. There are lots of elements—and they are essentially things that impact society more broadly, but find expression in schools—that are causing significant concern around workloads that I have also determined to look at in more practical ways—how do we understand this better, and how do we tackle it. Because I appreciate your point as well that it has a direct impact, particularly on retention of teachers.

In terms of the foundational plan, I don't see that as in conflict with the Curriculum for Wales. It's the same point that I made earlier, I think—that the clarity around the expectations will—. Because later—. Is it this month? Yes. Or later this term, just to be safe, the consultation on the detail of what those expectations look like will be published. And I feel, in my conversations with teachers so far, that having that level of clarity will be actively helpful rather than otherwise. Having that knowledge of the detailed expectations, enabling us to then ask Dysgu and Adnodd, and other partners that support the workforce, to align what they do to the expectations of that, should get us to a better place, rather than a more complex one.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. We'll move on to the next theme. All of these themes are important, but I know there has been a great deal of discussion about additional learning needs, Minister. I'd like to come to Lynne Neagle, first of all.

Thank you. I've got a few questions about ALN. The committee received a letter in response to our request about any revisions to the code of practice. I just wanted to clarify where we are with the work around what is generally available. I know how hard ALN officials work, and I know that this is a complex piece of work and will take time. But I just wanted to understand the sequencing. The guidance—which I signed off, actually—which was released in the spring is very good. But is it the plan to develop generally available guidance and then to look at laying a new code of practice on ALN?

Thank you for the question. I agree with you: the ALN officials that I'm going to bring in in a moment have been tremendously hard-working. I am still looking at that element, but also trying to work out how do we get to a point where we have a clearer understanding of the provision made generally available in our system—because, obviously, that's in the Act—and how do we get to a place where that is defined in a way that is helpful and well understood. So, that's the work I'm focusing on at the moment. The aim of it is to improve support for learners and the long-term sustainability of the system.

I'm sure Louise would want to add something to this, but revising the code would, as you know, need a statutory consultation. That's still very much a possibility and on the table, as it were. But I want to make that work now around that understanding in the system of provision generally available, and also to monitor the use of the toolkit, because the toolkit that I think you also introduced is very helpful in terms of parents and carers. Louise, do you want to add to that?

Yes, certainly. You've discussed some of this at length, Cabinet Minister. The Cabinet Minister really wants us to take a much more systematic and practical approach to this, to be much clearer on what we expect from the education system as a whole, and to think about whether we might be able to establish clearer expectations on what high-quality, consistent support looks like, to almost act as a benchmark from which we can improve provision and improve the support that's generally available in schools, and building on the existing support that's already there. That's work that we're discussing at the moment. As the Cabinet Minister said, we need to think about whether that has implications on the code. But, ultimately, it's about, right now, trying to improve support in schools and being really clear about what we expect. So, that's the work that we're working through and we can bring updates back to the committee.

Thank you. You mentioned the parent toolkit. There was a report that was received before the election from Gareth Morgans on advocacy, and you'll be aware that one of the big problems with the ALN system is that it is too often a battle for families. I think advocacy is really important, and I think there was an expectation, as part of the work arising from the legislative review, that work would be taken forward on the back of Gareth Morgans's work to develop some sort of independent national provision of advocacy. So, where are we on that?

Louise, are you happy to answer that?

I can. So, the Cabinet Minister is meeting Gareth Morgans, actually, later this month to discuss the review findings, and then we can work through publication and next steps. But, obviously, this is a really, really important area, to support that early support for families, early resolution of disputes, and to stop ALN challenges escalating, really, for children and families.

What we started discussing is working with local authorities as, obviously, they're responsible for delivering advocacy, and the funding arrangements also sit with local authorities. So, to start to have those conversations with local authorities in the first instance, to think about whether we can strengthen support services at that local level, and discuss whether national standards can support that consistency, then, of the local service—. So, I think some of those conversations are still in progress. As I say, we're meeting Gareth Morgans later this month. But it's certainly still a key priority to make sure that that support is there for families early and when they need it, really.

Okay. I'm sure the committee would want an update on that work, because independence is the key issue that families worry about and they don't always have confidence in the local authority commissioned services. I wanted to—

Lynne, before you just carry on, can I just remind people—sorry, I should have said this earlier—that you don't need to manually put your mic on? It will come on automatically. Sorry, I should have mentioned that at the top of the meeting. Apologies. Lynne.

I wanted to ask about mandatory training for school staff. I know we don't like the word 'mandatory', but there is a need to upskill all school staff if we're going to move towards a genuinely inclusive education system. Is that still a priority for Dysgu?

Yes.

Okay, great. Thank you.

And, then, my final question is on supporting learners with healthcare needs, which we had a discussion about in the Chamber. I can't overemphasise how serious this is, with school support staff being asked to perform really complex medical procedures. Obviously, I'm aware it's complex, the piece of work to take this forward. But I wanted to ask how assured you are that we haven't got support staff now in schools that are undertaking things like working on catheters, MIC-KEY lines et cetera. But also, what is the mechanism for reaching a firm agreement with health on this? Because the problem was usually with engagement with health rather than education. There was a group in place, chaired by your director and the chief nursing officer. Is that still the mechanism? And when can we expect that work to be concluded so that there is absolute clarity for schools?

I'm very happy just to talk about the governance of it, internally, and relationships with health, and Louise can talk a little bit about the engagement events that are happening at the moment with partners, externally. So, I continue to co-chair the internal oversight board with the chief nursing officer. I'm really pleased with how that work is progressing and the enthusiasm and support from everyone, including people who are involved in regional partnership boards and more externally focused, to really make a difference and to think really carefully about, as the consultation and the shared guidance progresses, how we make sure it really has an impact within schools. Everyone absolutely recognises the challenges, particularly for teaching assistants, around this and the relative qualifications and expertise necessary to support learners in the best way possible. So, I can absolutely reassure you that we continue to work very hard on it, internally.

And timescales.

Early next year for the guidance [correction: guidance consultation].

And are we confident the support staff aren't currently being asked to perform tasks they're not trained for?

I maybe want to hand over to Louise for this because there's an external engagement event happening this week with local authorities as well, who are really engaged to talk about their experiences and what's happening on the ground.

So, there's a series of engagements happening around developing the guidance, and that process is really going into the depth of roles and responsibilities. We've already held, I think, two events in north Wales and somewhere else last week, and we've got two more coming up. And those are a chance for both sectors, professionals in both sectors, to come together and really talk about these really knotty issues, to get into the depths of how we resolve this together. So, those conversations have been really, really useful, and they're all feeding into the guidance, which will really, clearly, be able to outline what those roles and responsibilities look like and to address concerns such as that. So, I think we're moving to a really positive place with these discussions and there's a first draft of the guidance that is being explored through [correction: alongisde] these sessions. I think it's a really important piece of work and it's progressing well.

I think it's an opportunity as well to reiterate the commitment to work on some of these issues across Government. I've already had a few meetings now with the health Minister and the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health, in particular, to look at and, I think, in relation to the nought-to-16 focus that we've got as well, that we do consider the needs of all our learners in a holistic way that obviously involves significant input from health in terms of expertise and services and trying to make that a more easily navigable space for families and for the education workforce as well, and to make those relationships less complex than they appear to be at the moment.

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. I have two questions on ALN. You will be aware that there has been a decrease of 57 per cent in the number of pupils identified as those with additional learning needs over the five years since the introduction of the new system, of course. Although there are a number of known reasons for this decrease, it's happening at a time when schools, local authorities and stakeholders note that more pupils are presenting with more severe needs. So, how are the needs of students who are not considered to reach the legal threshold for ALN being met outside of the ALN system, and, indeed, are they being met in truth at all? That ties in with Lynne's question about reviewing the code, perhaps, too. Thank you.

Thank you very much. And I also think it's pertinent to the conversation that we had earlier on the inclusive system, because the aim of the system is to put us in a situation where we can meet the needs of a broad range of learners, and part of the work of identifying what is expected will be important in that context. But simultaneously, of course, that must align with the support that we provide to the workforce and also building a broader understanding among parents and others of the meaningful and appropriate support available in schools. Maybe Nic would have something to add on this in terms of the inclusive system. Nic.

The inclusive system?

Yes.

So, it's a piece of work that we've been working through for quite some time, really, thinking about what, practically, our classrooms look like, how that support works for a range of children with different needs. It's important also to think about the interdependencies between some of those needs and the cross-overs. You can have a child with dyslexia, but they may have other things going on in their life that mean that their needs are more complicated. So, they might have issues at home in terms of family finances or there might be issues around mental health and anxiety that also play into their ability to engage with their lessons.

So, what we really want to do is get to a point—. And I think it picks up on the point somebody else was making earlier about the pressures in the classroom and the workload of teachers. Teachers can't fix everything that's happening in society. Everything in society might pitch up in a school at some point in time because we all live in a very interconnected way now and everything gets seen much more readily, but teachers need to be able to know where to go to get that support. We need the appropriate support staff in the right place—that's not just about teaching assistants, which I think a lot of people think we mean when we say 'support staff'. It's also about school counsellors, which I know that previous committees have talked about in a lot of depth, it's also about people who can support with additional learning needs, healthcare needs and also family engagement officers and the important pastoral role they can play. So, we're trying to build a system that has all of these support points in place, that schools know where they are, they can call on them as they need them and they can meet the needs of that child as that child presents in that classroom on that day.

It does require some schools to work in a slightly different way to maybe the way they have done in the past. It requires teachers to have slightly different skill sets so that they know where to go to get that help and support. But it is really important to us that we do that and that we can meet and address those needs before they get to a point where you need to put in quite severe interventions to make sure that that child is getting what they need.

Thank you very much. The second question I have concentrates on Welsh-medium ALN. So, in Plaid Cymru's 100-day plan, there was a commitment to improving accessibility to Welsh-medium education, beginning with an assessment of ALN provision through the medium of Welsh. In addition, there was recently a five-year review of the feasibility of it, which was required under the Act. How will the assessment set out in the 100-day plan align with the report that was published in August and builds on that? Thank you.

Thank you very much. I can't find the details on this at the moment.

I'll come in.

Yes.

So, the review that was published in August fulfils the quinquennial review, ultimately, and provides us with that really important picture of areas of progress and areas where we need to improve. So, really, it establishes that baseline for improvement over time. That work had been under way in the previous Government and came forward at the start of this Government. So, those two things certainly interact, and they deliver on the commitments of the quinquennial review.

Okay. Anything to add, Minister?

Well, from the perspective of looking at the ALN system in general, because there are two things that are particularly important for us to focus on at the moment—. One is the current pressures on resources in our schools, but also how we get to a point where the ALN system is more sustainable in the medium and longer term. In the context of that detailed work, in terms of how we work towards getting to that point, provision of Welsh-medium ALN will be crucial to that broader piece of work, because if we can't meet those needs, then it has a knock-on effect on other governmental priorities and priorities more broadly in relation to the Welsh language. So, I can assure the committee that those requirements, and meeting those needs in terms of the workforce specifically, will be a central consideration in ensuring that we get to a point where services are more reliable and provide that continuity to learners that isn't necessarily there at the moment.

Thank you, Minister. Before I come to Art, Catherine, I just wanted to check with you, did you want to come in on ALN?

No, I'm okay on that.

Okay. Art. Diolch.

Cabinet Minister, we're all aware that, currently, ALN is a system that is massively under strain, whether that's in terms of funding or the correct provisioning. I'm happy to hear some of the answers you've been giving today, that we are trying to plan to get it in the correct direction. One of the issues I'd like to know is, now we've already been through the supplementary budget, where we fully understood the house did not feel enough was being given, has that issue been revisited? In the new budget, are you going to fund it correctly?

This is a priority for us. I think we have reiterated, on a number of occasions, that securing funding for ALN is a significant priority for us, and we are continuing discussions with all parties to ensure that we are able to address some of those needs.

And, Art, as a reminder, we will be bringing the Minister back, when we do have the draft budget, for further scrutiny on that in particular.

I'll be very keen to see it.

Thank you. Okay. Mair, over to you.

Thank you. I have a question on ALN in childcare. There's perhaps a lack of clarity in terms of rights in relation to ALN within free childcare or funded childcare. Can you confirm whether a child that requires ALN during nursery education—the 10 hours—will have the same level of support during the funded childcare hours? I understand that that overlaps with another Minister's portfolio too.

Yes, and, clearly, we have to work together on that. There should not be a difference, for example, in the hours that a learner with ALN receives in terms of childcare provision, but there will be a further discussion then on the specific ALN needs in that context. I don't know, Louise, whether you wanted to add anything to that. But it is, clearly, a very live focus for us, ensuring that the—. Because it goes back to that question about continuity of support, truth be told, doesn't it, ensuring that learners can receive what they need in the context of the childcare offer, and pre school, as well as in school.

Thank you. We have a professional adviser working within ALN and working with the team on the childcare offer to make sure that these two things do clearly align. She's actually been out with early years officers this week, working through the ins and outs of how we make sure that we've got a really clear childcare offer, but we're really clear how local authorities are supporting very young children to access the support around ALN. So, as the Cabinet Minister said, it's a live piece of work, and making sure that there's a really clear offer for families is the priority, really. Because I think it has been difficult to navigate, and with this new clear offer we need to make sure that it's equally transparent for learners with ALN.

Thank you very much. Are there any further questions on ALN, additional learning needs, from anyone? If not, we'll move on to the Welsh language in education. Beca, I'll come to you for the first question.

Thank you very much, Chair. You will, of course, be familiar with the success of Gwynedd council's education policy, a policy that has been further strengthened recently, which ensures that every child receives access to bilingual and Welsh-medium education. As you work on measures to grow the number of pupils receiving Welsh-medium education throughout Wales, to what extent will you be considering and learning from the success of Gwynedd's language policies? Because, as a child to parents who moved here from England, it is entirely possible that I would not be able to speak Welsh if it were not for the fact that my parents moved to Gwynedd, where every child has completely equal access to Welsh medium-education.

Thank you very much. I think I can happily commit to learning from the successes of local authorities across Wales in relation to securing access to Welsh-medium education, which is, of course, central to the work that we are doing now and consulting on soon in relation to the framework that is required as part of the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025. What will—. We need to develop opportunities to secure access to Welsh-medium education, and we must also ensure that, whatever schools our young people attend, they can leave that school being able to use the Welsh language confidently. So, when we do consult later in this term on these elements, that will include details as to how we reach those objectives, building on what many local authorities—or authorities across Wales—have been doing already. One of the things that we have done as a matter of urgency over the summer is to look at the Welsh in education strategic plans for all of those authorities. We are currently analysing those WESPs and having further conversations with the local authorities to look at how we get from the point where we are now to deliver the aspirations in the Act and the consultation, which will come before us very soon.

Minister, I had a question on the WESPs and the delivery plans. You mentioned that the rapid review had concluded and you said that you're now going back to the local authorities. Could you give us some sort of idea of what kinds of findings you had in that review?

Well, I can give you a flavour, but I don't want to share too much, because it wouldn't be entirely fair because we've only spoken to half the local authorities to date. But there's growth, for example, in Welsh-medium childcare provision. There is growth in year 1 Welsh-medium education learners, and there is also clear investment in relation to expenditure on developing Welsh-medium schools. So, there are elements that have already emerged, but it would be premature for me to go into details, because we are continuing with that work, and the fuller picture might be more useful to you.

So, could we ask for a letter and an update from you shortly when those findings are clearer, and when you have spoken to all the local authorities?

Yes, we can.

Thank you. Okay, Mair, I'll come to you.

Thank you. I have a question—. It was very positive to hear about that work that's happening with local authorities. I'm interested in learning more about when a clear implementation timeline, setting out a pathway towards the Cymraeg 2050 target and implementing the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Act 2025, will be published. Evidently, the current Government has increased the target as well, I think, to 50 per cent from what had been set by the prior Government. Are you therefore reviewing that timetable, because, clearly, there are many challenges, I imagine, in reaching that target?

And related to that, in a way, in terms of workforce in particular, there is evidence showing that the number of teachers who can teach through the medium of Welsh remains lower than what we will need. So, in terms of the clear implementation timeline, when would you be looking at having that workforce implementation programme that would allow the Government to reach those targets in terms of Welsh-medium education?

Thank you very much. There are a number of different elements involved in this work, and therefore the consultation will include a new Welsh language strategy to develop our work towards 2050. It will also include the Welsh and education framework, as well as the code that will describe people's attainment in speaking Welsh, which will mean that we can be far more skilled in recording that information. So, that will be part of the work that this consultation, which will be brought forward during this term, will deal with.

In terms of the workforce, clearly, a focus on the workforce and ensuring that we have an adequate number of teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh will be central to our success in achieving our aims. As part of that, of course, there will be the launch of the athrofa, which will happen officially on 1 August 2027. You will see in this consultation that all of those elements will be drawn together, and that will provide a plan and a pathway towards our 2050 aspirations in relation to a million and more Welsh speakers. There will be a consultation on that, and then, in accordance with the Act, there are specific steps to deliver what the strategy and the framework will propose.

Thank you very much for that response, and I just have one more question in relation to the Welsh language and initial teacher education. I asked you a question about this in the Culture, Communications, Cymraeg and Sport Committee last week. I wanted to ask you to expand a little bit on that response. You said that there may be 35 hours required in all of the initial teacher education courses at the moment. What is that requirement, and when was that introduced?

This goes back quite a bit to 2020. There was a target that 30 per cent of all ITE students would be recruited as Welsh-medium students. Kirsty Williams, the Minister at the time I think, introduced that in 2020. Could you confirm that that target still reflects the expectations of the Government of ITE providers?

Thank you very much. I think the 35 hours were introduced in the last accreditation cycle, but I'll check that. I think I'm right in saying that. Reaching the targets to recruit people to ITE who can teach through the medium of Welsh is extremely challenging, and we are currently not reaching those targets. So, the work on promoting that pathway will be a very important part of how we reach our objectives in terms of the workforce that we need. We have taken some initial steps; we have offered financial incentives for those who do enter ITE and are able to teach through the medium of Welsh, but I think there will be more to be done to develop the workforce that we need over the ensuing period.

Right. Thank you. I have one other question, Minister, if that's okay. Under the Deputy Minister for Transport, we know that there is going to be a review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Could you give us assurance as a committee that you are working very closely with the Deputy Minister there, and in particular in relation to looking at the impact of that Measure on those who receive their education through the medium of Welsh, or are able to access education through the medium of Welsh?

Yes, I can provide that assurance. We've already discussed this issue and have prioritised learners who travel to Welsh-medium provision, and we are also looking at learners with additional learning needs, in order to ensure that we make informed progress and appropriately target the work that is happening in relation to learner travel.

Thank you. Any further questions on Welsh language and education? Donna.

Hi. I know I said I was going to be an observer today, as it's my first committee meeting but—

It's mine too.

Both of us then, Minister. What I'd like to ask a question on is regarding secondary Welsh-medium education. There are some unitary authorities that do not have that facility in their counties, and I'm wondering how you might go about addressing it, because one of my constituencies doesn't have it. Children are having to travel over an hour to access that facility, which is quite unfair for them—an hour to, and then an hour back to get home. So, I'm just wondering how you might address that.

The arrangements in terms of planning school places is the responsibility of local authorities, so that's the space for that discussion. But, when we are publishing our consultation on the framework and the way we arrive at access to Welsh-medium education, I think those conversations will be very much live with local authorities about the provision they have. But that's also a pertinent point in relation to the earlier question about learner travel.

Okay, thank you.

Diolch—[Interruption.] Sorry, Sam.

[Inaudible.]—a point made earlier about the strategy in Gwynedd Council around Welsh-medium education. My understanding is that, in primary school in particular, it's not bilingual education, that all primary schools in Gwynedd are in category 2, which is Welsh-medium only education. I'm just reading Gwynedd Council's education language policy from 2026. It clearly shows that Welsh is the medium of education for all pre-school provision throughout Gwynedd and all primary schools in Gwynedd. In foundation phase at year 2, Welsh is the only medium of education, assessment and extracurricular activities. So, I'm just wondering, for parents of children who don't speak Welsh, what assurances you can give them in places like Gwynedd that their children will be able to access the education that they and their families need?

Thank you. Obviously, the policy for language, schools' provision, is a matter for the local authority, and I am always careful not to intervene or comment on these in case any matters are referred to Welsh Ministers. But, I think, in the context of Welsh-medium education, what also exists alongside that are very many services and provision to make sure that all learners can access the curriculum through the medium of Welsh. There are extensive immersion opportunities that allow learners, at whichever point they enter the school system, to be able very quickly to become confident speakers and users of Welsh, which, in broader terms, is our aim for all 16-year-olds in our schools in Wales in any event. So, the support is available, as well as the provision.

Thanks. Sorry, Chair, just to expand on that point, I guess it's just understanding that there's a clear difference between bilingual education and Welsh-medium or English-medium only education. The categorisation of category 2 and category 3 schools is quite distinct. Are you assured that that provision is suitable, in a place like Gwynedd, to support families and children who perhaps don't speak Welsh sufficiently enough?

I think that the categorisation of schools is also something that will be part of the consultation, to arrive at a better and nuanced understanding of what these categories are and what they deliver. I'll go back to my earlier point that the support and the services are there to help all learners access the education and access the curriculum. As somebody who went through bilingual education myself, I think I can safely say that people do emerge well able to speak in both if we do this well.

Further to that, as a child brought up in Gwynedd, I wonder how you have those assurances that the immersion and the support is appropriate.

We have a wider conversation about standards in schools and how well schools are doing. That is something that is available at a local authority level as well, but my focus is most certainly on what the national picture is telling me. That's what I think the responsibility of Government is, and then local authorities for the provision in their areas.

Thanks.

Thank you. Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Sam. We're going to move on to the next theme, which is the education workforce, something that you've also spoken quite a bit about in terms of it being a priority for you, Minister. I just wanted to check with Mair, you asked a question about the workforce, Mair, are you content—? Do you have a further question about the workforce in particular?

Yes, I do have one question, not specifically about Welsh-medium education but a more general question. Dysgu has now taken national responsibility for professional learning and leadership. What will be the key measures of success that you will use to decide whether Dysgu makes a real difference to standards, recruitment and retention in the workforce?

Thank you very much. Dysgu, as you said, is now in place and works very closely with Adnodd, which is responsible for providing resources to schools. These are now national bodies that respond in a careful and informed way to system requirements at the local and national level, and they also work very closely with local authorities. They do have remits that we present to them, and it is in that regard that I can be assured that they are delivering what is required of them. I don't know, Georgina, if you have anything to add to that.

Yes, it's worth noting that, from Dysgu's perspective, they're there to deliver national priorities, not all professional learning for all staff, which is the responsibility of local authorities. They're very much focused around literacy and numeracy, additional learning needs support and wider inclusion professional learning, as well as, obviously, the national professional qualification for headship and the middle and senior leaders' work. They're still relatively early on; it's just over a year that they've been in place, but we continue to work very closely with them. Obviously, a lot of feedback they get from local authorities and teachers is relevant to understanding how they feel their programme is progressing. They meet with the Minister on a regular basis to talk about how this is being felt and experienced in the sector. Also, they're very aware of the importance of the impact of their work. That's a conversation that we continue to have with them, to make sure it is making a difference. They're part of the wider ecosystem of support. Part of our work is about understanding what their role is compared to others and making sure that, collectively, we're having an impact.

Diolch. Lynne, please.

I wanted to ask about the strategic education workforce plan—it was published in March—and what the status of that plan is under the new Government. I specifically wanted to ask about school support staff. You'll be aware there's a commitment in the plan to legislate for a school support staff negotiating body. There was previously a Bill manager in place to take that work forward. The Senedd has passed a motion supporting that. This is about more than pay; it's about recognition, professional learning and all the issues that relate to support staff. So, I would be keen to know where the Government is on that particular issue, but also in terms of the wider milestones in the plan.

Thank you. I'll answer that, if I may, and then ask Georgina to speak more broadly on the education workforce plan. We have had conversations around this previously and, certainly, I'm not closing the door to that possibility because I do think it is vitally important to recognise the contribution of school support staff and also their professional status, as well, as key players in the effectiveness, if you like, of our education system and certainly for the support of some learners in particular. So, we are working on how we make sure that that professional pathway is available to them to give that greater recognition of the contribution that they are making while, at the same time, as I've said previously, not closing the door to the wider conversation around the negotiating body and also keeping an eye on what is developing in England, about which I have sometimes mixed messages. So, keeping a close eye on how that develops will be important for us, I think.

More widely on the support staff, as well, obviously, we're working very hard to make sure that there are sufficient professional learning opportunities for them and to support them in their career pathway. So, whilst the Minister considers the legislative route, which, obviously, takes quite a long time, just trying to make sure that we're doing what we can in the short term to support them is really important and that is, as you say, sort of within the strategic education workforce plan.

If you recall, the plan was really about bringing together all of the different commitments that had been made around workforce from a number of different committees and bodies and just trying to make sure that they were all in one place. It remains the platform for thinking about the future, and particularly thinking about what this Government's workforce priorities are in relation to the programme for government, and literacy and numeracy in particular. So, that conversation is ongoing with the Minister, just to really think about—you know, there's a lot in there—and just trying to make sure that those are being prioritised to focus on the things that support the Government's priorities.

Thank you. And is there any update on the dispute with the National Association of Head Teachers? I saw the statement yesterday, so I can see that there is some progress, but, obviously, parents out there will be worried. How is it going and how close are we to a resolution of that dispute?

As we have throughout, we have maintained very close contact and regular conversations to deal with the outstanding issues, and that remains the case now.

Diolch yn fawr. Catherine, please.

I remember in Plenary you telling me that you were sort of wedded to the Curriculum for Wales, and we've already had a discussion about that and workforce. It's clear that Dysgu also has that wedding, I think, as well, and it says here that it will contribute directly to school improvement and the realisation of the Curriculum for Wales. So, can you expand on how they're going to improve schools in relation to the Curriculum for Wales, please?

Thank you. I think this is a point about alignment again, because, as Georgina, I think, mentioned earlier on, what Dysgu is tasked with doing is making sure that the support and professional learning it offers is of a very high standard, is rooted in research, is available everywhere in Wales to the same level, the same consistency in Welsh and English, and is very much aligned with the priorities of the Government around education. So, that is its role. That is a continuing conversation, and that conversation will develop as we go through the process of the targeted curriculum review that we've also announced, because that will be a way of making sure that we continue, always, to be aligned in the support available to achieve the Government's aims, but also, because it has been a concern in the past that the same level and the same quality of professional learning support is not available everywhere in Wales, Dysgu is very much tasked with making sure that that is something that is addressed with urgency.

Yes, because I think if you don't get that right, you're going to see a continual drop in the workforce.

Yes.

Thank you, Catherine. Now, of course, pupils are at the heart of everything that we talk about today, and the next topic focuses on engaging with pupils and equity in education. So, I'll ask Art, please, to come in on this theme with his question. Are you happy to do so, Art?

Happy?

Yes. Cabinet Minister, one of the reasons I was insistent to my party that I sit on this committee is I was one of those children that fell out of the education system into NEET as a child. Some of the worrying elements I'm seeing within the papers we've been given today is that persistent non-attendance is actually dramatically on the increase. It's not too hard to draw a correlation from that to our rising NEET statistics as well. What I'm wanting to try and capture into the system is—I was very lucky, as there were trades, and there was the army for me and I managed to re-educate myself—some of those opportunities do not exist today or they are rather more limited than they were many years ago. I feel strongly that we need to build something into the system where we are capturing these children earlier, trying to get the re-engagement at earlier pinch-points within their life. We need to try and eradicate this trend, and I'm just interested to see what your thoughts or ways, going forward, are going to be.

Yes, thank you very much. Thank you for sharing that as well. It is a significant challenge for us. Learners who are persistently absent lose 10 per cent of their schooling time or more. That is a significant barrier to their being able to engage with both the curriculum in school and also access opportunities when they've left school, which is why we have explicitly put a target into the 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan' to reduce by 2 per cent year on year the number of pupils, the percentage of pupils, who are persistently absent. But, alongside that, we recognise that saying so doesn't make it so, and that there are complex issues at play for learners who are absent for that amount of time from school, which is why we've looked to tackle this in as holistic a way as we can manage, so thinking about what influences these things. Attendance is one indicator. Behaviour and well-being play into this as well. So, looking at how we bring all of those elements together to try and reduce that level of persistent absence is an immediate focus for us to make sure that they have the support that they need.

More broadly around the opportunities that are—. That will need to be addressed first. I think, in terms of attendance, an awful lot of work has gone into increasing attendance post COVID, and incrementally it has gone up. It hasn't returned to pre-COVID levels, and I think we're all aware that making a difference with the remaining cohort is going to be much more complex than perhaps it was to address the initial increases. These are going to be often hard to reach and that's why we're putting so much emphasis on this framework and aligning it to a target, because a target will help us target the resources and support as well appropriately.

More broadly on the opportunities that they might have later, I know my colleague Cefin Campbell was before this committee last week, and he launches the very first, I think, Welsh skills summit tomorrow. Being able to align opportunities and for people to have that line of sight, these are the possible routes for me. These are opportunities that, in a Welsh economy, lead to jobs, for me. Those kinds of things will be an important part of how we talk about this, because addressing absences in itself is very important, but it has to be for those young people who are facing significant challenges for a purpose as well, that would lead them down routes, we hope, similar perhaps to the one that you took yourself. But addressing this is going to be hard. We know that we've got the low-hanging fruit and this is the really hard work now. I don't know, Nic, whether you want to add anything.

No, I think you've covered all of that. I was just trying to check, actually. I will double-check and come back to you, but I think the persistent absence rates dropped slightly last academic year. Overall attendance rates—. I'll double-check that. I might be being overly optimistic, and it might be the first term's data where we saw a slight improvement, but I will double-check that and come back to you.

Okay. If I can just follow up on that one with a very, very short one. Cefin's plan sounds to me a very good way of trying to tackle the problem, but by the time the problem's tackled, we already have a bow wave behind that we still need to sort. One of the things I would like to see there is—. Whatever we are doing currently is not working. Can we please look into that itself, try and identify where those issues sit, and if it's at a local authority level, can we, as a Government, not do something overarching to try and clear the backlog before that plan comes into play?

We are working very closely with local authorities already on some of this work, and they are, in fact, learning from some of the examples of things that they have done very effectively in supporting families, for example, in persuading learners back into school. I'm very happy to continue to do that with some intensity, because I agree with you: there is a cohort of learners we need to get to now. And although the framework will bring these elements, we hope, helpfully together to give us greater focus linked to that target, there is a great deal of work that is currently going on as well, which we hope will have a good impact, and we know, in fact, that in many cases it is.

Diolch.

I would like to stay on the issue of attendance, if I may. It was also a concern for me to see the levels of persistent absence, and of course they're higher among those who receive free school meals. And also higher among pupils who receive free school meals are those who are excluded for fixed periods. So, in terms of those groups—those most vulnerable pupils in our schools—how specifically are we supporting schools to reduce fixed-term exclusions and also to deal with persistent pupil absence?

And I have to mention one school that I visited on Monday to celebrate World Teachers' Day, I think it was, wasn't it? To go back to Georgina's point on schools helping schools, they are doing excellent work there, in that school in Hendreforgan. And I would really recommend that you visit Hendreforgan Community Primary School in Gilfach Goch, Minister. The headteacher there could actually speak of a 10 per cent improvement among those who have been persistently absent for more than 10 per cent of sessions.

So, we know that there is good work going on, but I would like to understand how Government and local authorities are going to support schools that are really having problems with some very stubborn figures, particularly in terms of those vulnerable learners who receive free school meals.

Thank you very much, and I would be delighted to go to Gilfach Goch to look at the work that they're doing there. As I said in my opening statement, I visit one school every week, and I do see examples of exactly what the Chair describes in terms of that detailed work. In the end, it all relates to that relationship between the school and these families. That deliberate, concerted work that schools do really does make the difference that you describe.

And I think the fact that, as you were saying, these absences are more common amongst our most deprived pupils is the reason why we have aligned this work very deliberately with the work that we are doing on equity more broadly, in creating an inclusive system, looking at well-being, and seeing these measures and this framework in the context of the impact of poverty on educational attainment. So, it isn't a piece of work that says, 'Here's a target, you now have to reach that target.' Rather, it is work that is supported by the understanding that there is a specific cohort of learners that we want to focus on in particular, for the exact reasons that you have referred to, and that is going to be very evident in the framework that we're working on and putting together.

I don't know, Nic, if you wanted to add to that.

So, you talked about specific support. Obviously, there's a plethora of guidance documents and information available, but guidance is only useful—. It needs to be lived. It needs to be breathed. It needs to be understood. And, as part of the work on the framework that the Cabinet Minister has referred to, we're going to be refreshing and simplifying a lot of that, to make our expectations much, much clearer, to try and reduce the pressure on schools, so that they can understand straightaway what they need to do in that space.

I talked a little bit about the broader support staff within schools, and the mechanisms to help families there. We're maintaining our investment in family engagement officers, which we think are really key to some of this work, and really pushing that through.

We're also, as part of the work to develop the framework, going to be looking at how we can pilot different initiatives to see what works in different contexts. Every school community is different from the school community down the road. The challenges might be quite similar, but the cohort of learners they've got is different; the circumstances their families face are different, and the situation that they're coming from. So, we need to make sure that we've got a range of different ways of working, both what works, and school leaders tell us that it would be quite helpful to understand what people have tried and what didn't work, and why it didn't work, so that they can have a think about that in their context as well, so that they've got things to draw on.

I think it's also important to highlight the work that schools do with the money that's available through the pupil development grant. That's funding that goes to each learner who is eligible for free school meals. It goes into the school budget on a per learner basis. And we've seen some really creative use of that funding within schools, to really think about how they can tackle these issues and support those learners, and help them to overcome the barriers that they face in terms of attendance and accessing their education.

Thanks.

And I think it's also worth noting that among those who are excluded for a fixed period, the levels are far higher for those with ALN, and that is a very real concern for me. I've always said in life that all kinds of behaviour are a means of communication. So, again, we need to have some sort of holistic and inclusive approach, as you mentioned, Minister, in order to tackle this and to ensure that those ALN needs are met, and that schools can make provision that really does deal with their needs and provides the best possible education for them.

We have looked at the data, and—.

We've got the data around persistent absence, and it is down from its spike in 2022-23, but not really improved over the past year. And, certainly, we're nowhere near the pre-pandemic levels, and we know that's the case with attendance as well, isn't it? So, something just to note for the record. Lynne, please.

I wanted to ask about the PDG. In your foundational plan, you say that a review of the PDG will begin this autumn. But the review of the PDG was announced under the previous Government, in December 2025, and I'm aware that officials have been working on it. There's £150 million a year invested in PDG, yet the attainment gap is still really shocking. The personalised assessment results were very worrying from an attainment gap point of view.

So, I wanted to have an update on that work, and when we can expect that work to be concluded, so that we can hopefully see some decisions about how that money is targeted to tackle the attainment gap.

Yes, this has been persistent for a very long time, and a lot of interventions have been introduced to try to get to grips with it. But, as you say, it persists.

I'm not familiar with the detail of what happened before I arrived, but Nic will be. But there are two elements to this, I think, that—. We are focusing on immediate improvements to the current grant arrangements and will make some announcements on that in the spring/summer of next year. And then, more broadly, to consider, longer term, how to align this well with the intention of getting to grips with that attainment gap. But the historical knowledge is in you and Nic, I think.

So, yes, obviously, the PDG is a piece of work that we've been looking at for a little while. We've been looking very carefully at the overall funding that's available and at the way that that money is allocated. I mentioned it was allocated on a per pupil basis, which it is, and it's dependent on the numbers of learners eligible for free school meals within a school. That number dwindles, year on year, for a variety of different reasons, which means that the cohort that are receiving the funding—the level of need is more compressed and more severe. We need to think very carefully about whether or not there are other data sets we should be using to make the most use of this funding, and we've been having exploration conversations about the use of different data, different sources. So, could we look at some of the information in the Wales index of multiple deprivation? Are there ways of accessing other data held by the UK Government that we could potentially use in this space? I know that you'd be familiar with some of those discussions. That's very much what we've been doing to date.

Following the discussions with the Cabinet Minister and the work around the literacy and numeracy plan, we've also been looking very carefully at whether or not the current arrangements remain consistent and, in effect, fit for purpose in the current context with the level of need and the way that society is progressing. So, there's now an additional phase to the PDG review where, as well as looking at tightening up existing arrangements and making things better in the short term, we're going to have a think and a discussion with partners about whether or not, in the longer term, we need to make different arrangements with the PDG and make broader changes. That will, obviously, take longer. It's in its very early stages. We don't know where that's going to go. We need to speak to schools and have some conversations about how it operates for them. It is a significant sum of money that sits in the education system and we want to make sure it is working because, as you say, it's not having the impact on the attainment gap that we might like.

Thanks.

I'll bring Sam in now. I think you have a question, Sam, on education away from school.

Diolch. Just before I jump into that, Chair, just on the PDG in particular, Minister, you'll be aware that one of the areas I raised in the last Senedd term was around outdoor education and outdoor education activities. I think there's probably an opportunity to explore how PDGs are used to support those opportunities. There's very clear evidence to show that outdoor activities make a huge impact on children from some of the most deprived areas. I know it is used in some local authorities for that, but not perhaps consistently across the way.

But, as the Chair mentioned, you'll be aware, Minister, that one in 20 children in Wales are educated outside of the maintained system, whether it be through independent schools, through elective home education, or through other ways. That's increased quite significantly from around one in 30-ish children around five or six years ago. I just wonder if you have a view on that, first of all, whether that's just an observation to be noted, or do you have concerns around that, or do you see that as a good thing, or none of the above?

It is a noticeable trend, as you say. I think we probably don't know quite enough about some of these decisions and how linked they are, for example, to additional learning needs or a feeling that needs are not being met in schools, or more complex areas of concern that have led to that decision being made. So, I think understanding it a little better would help me have a view, and I think the view would be different in different cases. But it is a significant increase and, from my conversations with local authorities and with schools, there is a feeling that it is more complex than perhaps we usefully know at this point, and we need to do a little more work on understanding it better.

Sure, thank you. I just wondered, I think it's your first time in front of the committee, as you mentioned earlier, so I just wondered, philosophically, if we could understand where you come from a little bit, whether you believe education is a Government's responsibility or primarily a parent's responsibility, and how your philosophical position on that may shape policy over this Senedd term.

I think that my very firm view is that this is a joint responsibility, and that's why I think we've done a lot of work on trying to work out what is the role of different parties in a successful education system. Parents and carers clearly have responsibilities, they have views, they have relationships with their own children that influence the kind of education they want to see for them. As a Government, being sure that all our learners have access to the best opportunities possible and that we know a little better where a concern needs to be taken up, I think that is our responsibility, as Government. But I see this very much as a responsibility jointly held by many parties across society and we could do a far better job in explaining those roles and responsibilities and holding each other to account for them.

Thank you. And do you, then, have any concerns about the number of independent schools closing in Wales, especially those that provide specialist provision and where local authorities have very important relationships? I recollect my time as a lead in Conwy council and the relationship we had with St David's College, for example, in the local authority area, who did fantastic work around supporting children with special dyslexia needs, for example. Do you have any concerns that independent schools are struggling at the moment and that many are closing down?

I have concerns about the learners and the families and the workforce impacted by those closures, some of which seem to have happened with very little notice. So, a rupture like that in any child's education is something that all of us, I think, should be worried about. My main focus is, however, on the 1,400-odd maintained schools we have in Wales and making sure that, as a Government, we support and challenge them appropriately.

I guess there is a link, though, Minister, isn't there, because when those schools do close down, the children are then probably educated in local state schools, and there's a cost to that. Are you getting much feedback from those schools and local authorities on the impact of that at all?

Not as yet, no, unless officials know anything more.

I wouldn't say it's detailed feedback. Obviously, wherever that happens, the local authorities are rightly concerned about the continuation of the education of those learners, and especially—you mentioned independent special schools, so schools that are providing quite specialist support—understanding the needs of those learners and what that means in terms of what the local schools will need to adjust to and make sure that they can support. The level of notice given is often quite short. We had a number that closed or announced closure quite close to the start of the school year, which meant that that was at a point where the local schools were not necessarily open and available and fully staffed to have the discussions. So, there is something around continuing dialogue and early notice in this space where these concerns are happening.

It's a really challenging circumstance. Nobody really wants to see a school close, and particularly not under the circumstances that we've seen, and the learners disrupted in the way that they are. But we haven't had large-scale reports of concerns from local authorities. They've been able to step in and support where needed. Not all families, obviously, want their children to go to those schools and they make alternative arrangements, and that's part of what we need to understand around the numbers around elective home education as well.

Minister, the letter that you wrote to the committee at the end of last week, which I believe is in the committee's papers, was around inclusive education provision, around recognising the role of mainstream, as well as specialist provision and alternative provision, but also the point that you originally made around education otherwise than at school and EHE learners and others, and the need to make sure that their needs are supported within that inclusive system. So, it moves into a sort of space, doesn't it, where the role of policy and Government is about trying to make sure that the system is working to support the needs of all learners.

Yes, sure. Thank you.

Thank you. Mair, please.

Thank you very much. I have a question on free school meals. Quite a bit of investment is being put into free school meals for primary pupils, but also for years 7 and 8 now, for those who are from low-income families in secondary school. I'm just interested in terms of the evidence that you have that investment improves outcomes for children. When will the committee perhaps be able to see an evaluation of the impact of that scheme, as it's now being rolled out to secondary schools? Clearly, the commitment so far relates to years 7 and 8, so how do you see that developing for other school years later on?

Thank you very much for the question. The roll-out in secondary schools is relatively new, of course, and the policy is relatively new. So, seeing an evaluation or identifying the impact of that may take some time. I don't know, Nic, if we have any information on primary schools. But it's important that we see this work as being closely related to our food strategy, too, in order to ensure that those two things are very closely aligned.

There is an evaluation around the free-school-meal provision and the benefits that that puts in place. We can share a link to that if the committee hasn't got it. Obviously, the roll-out in secondary schools has literally just started, so we need to give it a little bit of time to bed in, but we would expect evaluations to follow once we've got every local authority delivering and it's up and running fully, and then we can have a think about what difference that is making in that context.

Thank you very much. I wasn't expecting that evaluation to be ready yet, but, obviously, it's useful for us at the committee to know that that work is being done at the primary school level, and I'm eager to see how that will develop in secondary in the longer term.

Diolch, Mair. Catherine, please, on attendance, I believe.

I just wanted to follow on, really, from what Art was saying, and I think what Art was really trying to get at is getting to our students that are not engaging earlier on. So, I wondered if I could suggest, really, that there's a guided placement, like an early sort of apprenticeship, for those students. So, what is your overall plan to alleviate the attendance problem? Would it be more prudent to suggest alternatives that are more suitable for those children who are not engaging, not attending and not coming to school because the school can't seem to meet their need in that respect?

Thank you. I think we are willing to look at a wide range of support for these learners. We need them to be able to access the curriculum. We need their life chances to be enhanced, and we need to address the barriers that they currently face to achieving that, which is why, to go back to the framework, that is such a holistically drafted plan, so that we can consider as many aspects as possible, because all of these learners are individuals facing different levels of challenge in different areas. So, that's why the plan to support them is so carefully—. We've thought so carefully about how to do that.

I think, going back to our point, as well, about the education system being able to offer learners in Wales the opportunities that they need, is again linked to the work that I'm doing with my colleague the Deputy Minister, and it goes back to the point that I think I shared, when you raised the question as well, to understand what a pathway for these learners looks like and the opportunities that we can introduce them to. A commitment we've also made is to make this look and feel, for learners, like one single system, so that the opportunities, at an appropriate point, are signposted effectively and are available for learners who want to choose, legitimately, very different pathways, potentially. But we do need to address some of the elements around attendance and support as well.

But how early would you be willing to do that? I think that's what we're trying to say is, how early would you—? Would you go as far back—? Year 9 is quite crucial for students, isn't it, as they go into their GCSE areas. Some of those students would not engage, maybe, in those courses. So, would you be, at that point, looking at alternatives for those students, to enhance their life choices, to stop them from, maybe, not wanting to attend school, or for those barriers to be quashed, really?

I think it's a critical year, because you talk about GCSE choices. Although, I would say that, if you look at the attendance data—and we've spoken to Estyn about this as well—you tend to start seeing the pattern emerging in year 8. So, as children transition into secondary school, year 7 is an interesting year for a lot of children in terms of new experiences, new engagement, and then, in year 8, you start to see that pattern, and by year 9, it's more embedded.

Obviously, the Government has got quite a lot of policies in this space around junior apprenticeships. We're looking at VCSEs as well. Those are not areas that I work on, but they are things that we're thinking about in the context of that learner pathway provision and in terms of increasing provision. That will work for some children; it won't necessarily work for all children. It will depend on the reasons for the disengagement and what it is that they're not getting out of it. So, it is about having those conversations early and empowering schools to start having those conversations as soon as they start to notice the pattern emerging. I know that different local authorities and different schools are approaching this in different ways, which is not always ideal but does mean that it's perhaps tailored more to the learner. But, really, as soon as your attendance data starts to show that you've got an issue with a child not coming in on a regular basis, those conversations should be happening to try and divert that and get them back into school.

Yes. I welcome your holistic approach, and that's something that I was going to ask you about, the holistic side of it, really, because these students need to have their needs met. One of the things, though, I am in disagreement on is when local authorities start fining parents for not bringing children into school. I think that's a really detrimental thing to do. What are your views on that?

So, I think our policy is that fines should be a point of last resort, really. We would expect more engagement to happen before you got there. There are lots of issues with fining. You're fining the parent rather than taking positive action to tackle the issues that the child is facing. If you're talking about a family where part of the reason for the failure to attend is linked to cost-of-living pressures and issues within the family, then a fine is not going to help. We're also acutely aware that it disproportionately weighs on mothers. So, there are lots of issues with the fines system, and we would like to see action taken before that. Earlier in the summer, the Cabinet Minister announced some funding for some pilots, which are going to be looking at restorative action around behaviour, but that links into attendance as well. So, we would hope to provide some more detail on that in the coming weeks, and then learn from what we get out of those pilots in terms of what we can take back into the classroom, to try and get away from fines in particular.

In terms of the plans for the community-focused schools plus pilots, what schools will be included in that pilot scheme? How were they decided on, and to what extent will third sector partners participate in this work too?

Thank you very much for that question. We are currently identifying the local authorities that we will work with to identify the schools. But in deciding which ones we will work with, we have looked closely at the statistics in terms of attendance specifically, exclusions, free school meals, and we have identified in that context local authorities where those issues are important factors. So, the next step now is to complete the remit for this work and to move on with that identification process. There are specialist organisations that we will draw on and draw from their expertise—for example, sports organisations, arts bodies, community groups, who can help us to tailor provision in particular communities so that we have appropriate provision to the cohorts that we are trying to target. Those schools facing the most challenges will be the ones that are part of this pilot, and we are about to complete the work of identifying them.

Could we have an update to the committee when there is more information available?

Yes.

Great. Thank you. So, time is tight now, as we have just over 15 minutes left. I want to move on to our next theme, which is safeguarding and well-being. I'd like to bring Beca in here, please.

Thank you very much, Chair. Some of the notable things that came out of the 'Our Bravery Brought Justice' report, which is the report on Neil Foden's crimes, of course, was the call by the chair, Jan Pickles, to:

always 'think the unthinkable'. Don't think, 'What if I am wrong?', think, 'What if I am right?'—

—when discussing doubts about the behaviour of people who work with children and any doubts about abuse. It's possible, of course, to implement all kinds of measures and training to support reporting on suspicions of abuse, but how will the Government promote a culture where teaching staff and others feel confident to share and to report on their suspicions on people's behaviour, bearing in mind that the person under suspicion could be of a much higher status than themselves?

Thank you very much for the question. I do think that this is perhaps the most difficult element of work in this area—not just in this specific example, but historically too. Measuring culture change is something that is very difficult to do, but I do think that we as a Government have understood that this is not an issue that is limited to education. That's what underpinned the statement made by the Deputy Minister for mental health and social care yesterday, expanding the responsibility and the understanding of the importance of this work more broadly to health and to society more generally, and that these elements do include having the confidence that leadership in this area and that accountability are things that are deeply rooted in the work of everyone, particularly across public services, but also more broadly too—that they are consistent and clear across Wales. And also that it is a system that is able and is structured in a way that allows lessons to be learnt and that improvements can be made, and that we're not looking for a single response here, but that we are looking to develop and mature a more informed culture over time. And the key thing—the Deputy Minister emphasised this yesterday too—is listening to children and adults, and responding more quickly to them.

Therefore, I think there is a shared responsibility to identify whether the culture is changing. I think we do have a national context for that conversation now following the statement made yesterday. From the Gwynedd perspective specifically, the Member will be aware that I—along with Delyth Jewell, as it happens—will be chairing the ministerial group that looks at the progress and will discuss responses to recommendations, so that we can assure ourselves that this work is moving in the right direction. I think that the second meeting is to be held next week. Does anyone want to add anything?

Great. Thank you very much for that response. I very much welcomed the statement that was made in the Senedd yesterday by your colleague.

Just on another related issue, I'm an ardent supporter of relationships and sexuality education in schools for all kinds of reasons, but in particular because it is a tool to keep young people and children safe. There are two things that are important here: that teachers feel confident to teach these classes, and that the context responds to the myriad dangers and risks that young people face—grooming, for example. How can we ensure the confidence of teachers to teach these classes, and how much support will there be to include specialist external providers? I'm thinking in particular about the Rape and Sexual Abuse Support Centre North Wales's Don't Steal My Future programme.

Thank you very much. And I also want to recognise the importance of this element of our education system. It is a requirement for schools to teach RSE. It's been interesting in recent weeks—the importance of identifying cases where a relationship isn't healthy has been raised in a number of debates on various issues in the Senedd over recent weeks, and this I think is a central part of how we as an education system and as a society more broadly do ensure that our young people are empowered to understand the risks and dangers, to be able to interpret and convey them when they need support.

It's also important to emphasise that the discussion on this isn't always as accurate as it can be, and that people do need to understand what the curriculum's asks are in this regard. The youngest children are taught, for example, to understand what it means to be a good friend, how to be kind, how to develop relationships with friends. That is the starting point for people to understand how they should treat others, how they can expect to be treated themselves, and that we build on that information in order to make our young people effective advocates for themselves and for others when they feel that there are risks, or when something doesn't appear right.

So, this is an important part, I think, of how we prepare our young people for a future society that we're not that effective in negotiating or understanding ourselves. Young people's knowledge, particularly of what goes on online, for example, is far broader and more developed than most of us, I would argue, so providing them with the tools, the information and the confidence for them to understand and negotiate that new world is a responsibility, I think.

Thank you very much, Minister. Before I bring Lynne in, I just wanted to note that we as a committee have noted safeguarding as a theme of great interest to us, in ensuring that we have the confidence that the Government and our local authorities realise the ambitions and the recommendations that were made in a great number of recent reports, in particular the Gwynedd report that Beca mentioned. Next week and the week after, the whole committee will be undertaking safeguarding training so that we can ensure that we have the skills and the information that we need to deal with this difficult topic in a sensitive but informed way. So, I just wanted to let you know about that. I'll now bring Lynne in, please.

We have statutory guidance on a whole-school approach to mental health in Wales in schools, and it's always been my view that unless this work is led and owned by schools, rather than being done to schools by health, it will never be genuinely embedded, although there has been good progress. As we led up to the election, there was a decision taken to look at new governance for the whole-school approach, based on that sitting fully within education, but working in partnership with health. Can I ask what progress has been made on that new governance model?

We are continuing to review what that will look like and in the context of the commitments around the national framework on attendance, behaviour and well-being, and bringing that multi-agency approach together, trying to deal with this more holistically, and really think through what that means in terms of what needs to happen in schools and what support they need from others. So, that work is ongoing.

Okay. I've asked you a few times about the school counselling toolkit. This was almost ready prior to the election. I'd remind you that access to school counselling is a safeguarding issue. It was a recommendation of the 'Clywch' report. When can we expect that consultation on the new guidance, which is designed to ensure equitable access to high-quality school counselling across Wales? When will that be ready for consultation?

We are working on that now, and I expect the updated toolkit to be ready for that full public consultation early next year.

That's quite a long time, given that that would be nearly a year, really, from when it was ready. I think that's something the committee may want to pick up.

It's needed some further work following additional feedback we received from some of the counselling services.

Can I just ask one final question? There was funding announced for trauma-informed schools training across Wales, which is very close to my heart, but also especially close to my heart was the work that was going to be undertaken by the Anna Freud Centre on strategies for safety and well-being. Can I just ask whether, as a Government, you are committed to that programme, which is designed to encourage help-seeking amongst the young people who are receiving that in schools?

Yes, that work with Anna Freud is continuing.

Thank you.

Thank you, Lynne. Catherine, if you could be as brief as possible, because we have one remaining theme and I am keen to bring Art in to discuss that final topic. Catherine, over to you, please.

There are some concerns surrounding RSE and the infusion of ideology into it. Yes, we need to safeguard children, but we need to be careful how we do that in the RSE curriculum. So, how are outside providers going to be regulated?

Thank you for the question. I think it's clear in the guidance we have around this. The learning linked to RSE needs to be factual and pluralistic. That means schools must present a range of views held in society and not push a particular view. So, it is clear in the context of what we're asking schools to do that it is in that environment that they must operate.

Okay. Going on now to home education—because I noticed that was part of this—what views do you have on home education? Because there's a fabulous home education community out there. If you have a holistic view, are you viewing education as a whole including home education? Are you going to be heading towards registers for home education? Who is going to decide that parents are not providing a suitable education for their child?

I think I answered some of those questions in my response to Sam earlier on. I am conscious of the fact that more parents are choosing elective home education. I am aware that we are looking at this in the context of some of the developments in England—that I can't remember the detail of. Nic, can you help me with that?

We're moving forward with implementing the provisions in the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Act 2026, which is the point on the registers that you mentioned for children not in school. There's a programme of work we're developing around that. The implementation requires consultation on the policy and the regulations. We'd be expecting to take that forward over the next year with different contexts. We'll obviously be speaking to the home education groups as part of that, and to families in that context, as we have done previously in this space.

With regard to who decides whether or not the education is suitable and efficient, that responsibility currently sits with local authorities, who have that engagement and can issue school attendance orders if they feel it's not appropriate. We'll be looking at some of the work in this space as part of those consultations as well.

I'm keen that home-educating parents receive fair ground across the board. If we're looking at education holistically, we should really be looking at the aspects outside education as well.

Yes, thank you.

Chair, could I come in—?

Yes, okay, Sam.

[Inaudible.]—on the point Catherine raised on RSE and your response, Minister, I think you said there are a range of views in society that need to be considered, but I assume you'd agree that not all views in society hold equal weight and have equal value.

No, I probably wouldn't. I mean, I don't know what ideas you have in your head at the moment, but I guess I wouldn't agree with everything that everybody says everywhere, nor would any of us. In the context of RSE, what we are clearly indicating is that you do need to be responsive to the society you live in, but you need to be clear that you are presenting it in those terms and that you don't push a particular view over another. The point and purpose of this is to respond to learners and for learners to have an opportunity to engage with RSE in a way that reflects the world that they are living in, that we sometimes improperly understand. It's to help them navigate that as helpfully as possible, and in a way that is entirely age appropriate as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Minister. We're on the last topic, you'll be pleased to hear. I know that time is tight, so we'll have to be quick as we draw to a close. Our final issue is school funding and infrastructure. Art, I'll bring you in in a moment. Lynne, can I just check that you still want to come in on this topic?

Do you still want to come in on school funding and infrastructure?

No. Okay, Art, over to you. Thanks.

Cabinet Minister, I'll try and be as quick as I can. We know already that schools are under pressure and so is school maintenance. I quite welcome the increase in funding that's going towards it. I do not lay any of the blame at your doorstep, it's successive Governments that have kicked the can down the road. We need to get to a point in the future whereby all backlog maintenance can be completed and then start to look holistically at a more informed maintenance plan for our schools rather than being reactive. I'd be very interested in what your thoughts are on that.

Thank you. Yes, this is a considerable challenge, and not just in education either—we see similar examples across the health service as well. We did undertake a manifesto commitment to undertake a survey of the school estate. That work is going forward to identify those buildings that are in the—. I think there are C and D conditions, I can't remember what the actual descriptors are, across Wales. I don't have the timetable for that work with me today, but I can share that with you separately. I agree with you that, more broadly across all public services, understanding and planning for what we do to address the significant issues are going to be priorities, albeit in a very, very constrained fiscal context at the moment, and particularly again for next year.

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Art. Lynne, briefly, please. Thank you.

School funding was a concern for me when I was a Minister and it's still a concern for me now. I always want to see more funding going into education. I know that you've reached an agreement with the Association of School and College Leaders, which includes a commitment to a review of school funding. I'm not expecting you to go into that now, it's too late, but I think it would be helpful for the committee to have a note on what that will look like, because I think that is a significant issue that we would want to ask about. And also to say, I don't know if the reserves and deficits have been published yet for this year, but when they are, I think it would be helpful to receive a copy for the committee.

Yes, we can certainly provide you with that, and wider information, also, about school funding. I think we agree on one point, which is to argue strongly for funding for education.

Minister, can I just come in there? I think the agreement and the conversation was about exploring a review, so exploring the sort of framework for that.

One final question from me, Minister. A review of school governance and governing bodies was announced by the previous Government in October 2025. According to the Government's website, it says that up to six to nine months is how long it would take for the report to be published. So, have you received a report yet, and could you give us an update on that, please?

That work is ongoing. It's a piece of work that is led by Welsh Government officials and working with a range of external stakeholders from different areas of interest. So, those conversations with those partners are still ongoing, and recommendations and thoughts will be with the Minister in due course.

Okay. Could I also request an update on that, if possible, please, when that report has been issued?

Yes.

That would be really great. Diolch.

Okay. So, we're just two minutes over time—apologies for that. Does anyone have a question now?

Really burning questions only—

—at this time now. I'm looking around and I think that everyone has asked several important and appropriate questions of you, Minister. Thank you very much to you and your officials for your time today. There are several elements here that we've agreed to follow up on.

So, the local authority advocacy work that Lynne referenced, we've asked for some follow-up on that. We've asked for some follow-up on RVE, following a question from Sam earlier on. Updates on the WESP review, please; evaluation of free school meals and sending the link to the committee on that; information on Community Schools Plus, when that pilot programme has been finalised; a review of school funding and the proposals there, and the reserves and deficits report. And then, finally, the last question around the school governance report. Lynne.

Yes, I was assuming that we'd have a discussion in private about other areas that we want to follow up.

Absolutely. Yes, we'll be having a debrief session later on this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr. Oh, sorry, Art, diolch.

The sharing of the school estate report, once available.

Thank you, Art. Thank you for reminding me about that. Thank you very much to you for being here today, and thank you to Members for your participation today during the session as well. Thank you very much.

No problem.