Plenary

We'll next move to questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much for your question. To date, over 30,000 pupils have engaged with the project since 2023. From April 2025, Spectrum will deliver a healthy relationships session to every child in years 2, 6 and 10 in Wales. They will also be developing a peer mentor scheme for older pupils.

Thank you very much for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Spectrum, of course, is a very important programme, as it provides lessons on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence for children and young people, and it's good that schools can participate in that scheme and learn from it. Unfortunately, I'm given to understand that the number of schools in Gwynedd and Anglesey that are part of the scheme is very low, and although there's been no thorough analysis of why that is the case, the belief is that it relates to the fact that there's only one official working on the project in north Wales that can speak Welsh. The Cabinet Secretary will appreciate the importance of the Welsh language in working with schools that operate through the medium of Welsh in Gwynedd and Anglesey. So, will the Cabinet Secretary look into this issue and ensure that the project can work fully with all schools in north Wales?

Thank you, Mabon. It's very important for Spectrum to discuss Welsh-medium lessons.

On the Spectrum Project there's very positive feedback from the schools and educational settings that have undertaken sessions, but, in fact, we are working closely with Spectrum to review their delivery model, to ensure that, in future, every child in Wales in primary and secondary education can receive at least one session of health relationships work through their relationships and sex education curriculum. But I will take this forward, in terms of the importance of making sure that there are Welsh speakers delivering Spectrum in our schools in Wales.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to raise the scourge of sexual violence in north Wales during Sexual Abuse and Sexual Violence Awareness Week, and I'm keen to understand how the Welsh Government is assessing the success of educational programmes to curb these offences. The number of reported sexual assault offences in north Wales increased from 2,446 in 2023 to 2,558 offences in 2024. So, in the area of sexual offences, the numbers are actually increasing and are quite shocking, and across the policing area covered by North Wales Police, only 4 per cent of sexual assault complaints resulted in a charge or summons.

So, whilst early education on healthy relationships is essential, sexual offences, like all crimes, will increase if the offenders recognise that there's a very low probability of being arrested and charged for the offence. Even within schools, almost a third of 16 to 18-year-old girls in the UK said that they'd been subjected to unwanted touching at school, which shows the problem is endemic, despite education on the topic. And despite being a reserved matter, the Welsh Government still has a role to educate victims on how to report sexual crimes and provide support to victims to ensure a higher conviction rate.

So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government is responding to disappointing results from anti-sexual-violence and healthy relationships education, and how they are considering changing education in a way that empowers the victims to ensure convictions? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you also for highlighting the fact that this week is Sexual Abuse and Sexual Violence Awareness Week, and thank you for your continuing championing of that, and for giving those statistics today, which are very concerning in terms of the crime and justice issues that you highlight in north Wales. Just on the matter of crime and justice on this issue, we have very strong working relationships with policing in Wales, particularly in north Wales, indeed, with the police and crime commissioners, and of course you have a chief constable, Amanda Blakeman, who is very powerful in leading on these issues.

But you're right to link this to education, and education at every level. We've just talked about Spectrum. What's really important is that Spectrum is not just undertaking their work with pupils, but they're also providing additional training to teachers, at teacher training days, parent and governor meetings, and they have close working relationships with education settings as well. As I've said, we are looking particularly at how we can improve the delivery, extend Spectrum, but also, I think, importantly, the work that we do with the Sound campaign, which helps to provide young men and boys with positive role models, which I know you have recognised, and increasing our funding for all violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence projects for 2025-26, but it is clear that this has to be underpinned by our work in encouraging and developing relationships and sexuality education as a statutory requirement in our schools, and mandatory for all learners. Of course, that impacts on all aspects of life in society.

Cabinet Secretary, I've seen at first-hand some of the positive messages pupils have taken away with regard to learning about healthy relationships in school. And, for many, many years, I've worked also with schools, inviting the young people, the pupils, to come up with their own ideas and their own thoughts about what positive relationships look like, under the respect agenda. And I think, in a fast-moving environment where young people access material in many different formats, it's more important now than ever that we help them understand what a good relationship looks like, and also how to protect themselves from outside influences beyond their control. So, would you agree with me that projects like the Spectrum Project, and also others, are essential now and critical in helping to build the positive relationships that we'll see young people carrying with them throughout their lives?

Well, thank you very much, Joyce Watson, and thank you for continuing to lead—a champion of not only White Ribbon, which is an all-year-round campaign, but also the work that you do in your constituency and with schools and young people. And we know that tackling violence against women requires that societal change, where we have to start with focusing on young people and education and early intervention.

It is Stori Wales that we fund to deliver the Spectrum Project in schools, and it provides all children in Wales with advice and guidance on healthy relationships. Just one extra point I'd like to make about Spectrum, in response to your question, is that they're working today to develop a peer mentor scheme, and that's really important, in terms of older pupils being able to support younger pupils and students in discussions around healthy relationships, creating safe environments for often difficult conversations, and modelling positive behaviours.

Diolch yn fawr, Hannah Blythyn. Our investment in a range of projects, including the 'Claim what's yours' national take-up campaign, free training to empower front-line workers and income maximisation services delivered through the single advice fund, is helping people in Delyn, and across Wales, to claim every pound they're entitled to.

Thank you very much for your response and for all of your work in this area.

I'm pleased that my own local authority, Flintshire County Council, is amongst those working with the Welsh Government and other partners to make benefits, grants and other payments, such as free school meals, the school essentials grant, and the council tax reduction scheme as simple to claim as they possibly can be.

I believe we need to be clear when we're talking about this that it's about fairness, equality and social justice. It is simply what people deserve and are entitled to as part of a civilised society. I also very much recognise the progressive position that the Welsh Government takes on this and what has been done to provide financial support within the constraints the Government has faced and faces. With that said, Cabinet Secretary, you'll know that I've raised with you before the Unite union’s campaign for further financial support for pensioners in Wales, and would ask again that you give that due consideration. Sadly, we know that too many people do not reach out for support, and can suffer as a consequence. Diolch.

Thank you very much for your very important supplementary question.

I think Flintshire County Council should be congratulated for their commitment to ensuring that people take up—. These are entitlements. This is about us developing our Welsh benefits system here in Wales, and Flintshire is actively engaged in the Welsh benefits charter, the phase 1 route map that will ensure people only need to present their evidence once to claim council tax reduction, free school meals and school essentials grant in each local authority in Wales, and Flintshire taking an active role in that. And also they have engaged in the Policy in Practice—. Flintshire has engaged, as have other north Wales and other authorities in Wales, with Policy in Practice, to ensure that they can target residents who are missing out on any entitlements, beyond the three that we're particularly focusing on. That's about using a data analytics tool from Policy in Practice. They can identify and target residents who are missing out on their entitlements over the course of the year. So, again, I'm glad that Flintshire has taken this up. It's interesting that, in Flintshire, over 10,000 low-income households are in receipt of the council tax reduction scheme. Over 8,000 households pay no council tax at all in Flintshire.

Another point that I think is relevant is that we continue to maintain entitlements by ensuring the council tax reduction scheme is uprated annually to take account of rises in the cost of living. But following your questions to me at an earlier stage, I am meeting Peter Hughes, Wales secretary of Unite, in the next few weeks. I'm also meeting the Unite pensioners to talk about ways in which we can respond to their fuel payment campaign, and I look forward to doing that. I've got the date in the diary, and in fact, if you're available, I'd like you to join us.

Despite the figures you use, Flintshire is still nineteenth out of 22 for per capita funding in the local government funding formula.

November's Citizens Advice Flintshire news focused on energy advice and the deadline to claim the non-devolved winter fuel payment. December's Citizens Advice Flintshire news focused on council tax discounts and reductions, which, of course, are devolved.

Questioning you here a year ago on the Welsh benefits charter, I noted that the sector had been calling for a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits the Welsh Government is responsible for, as had I, for almost a decade.

The Welsh Government has now published a streamlining Welsh benefits route map to ensure that people can seamlessly claim their entitlement to council tax reduction, free school meals and the school essentials grant in each Welsh local authority by April 2026. This includes:

'Consider how Job Centre Plus signpost to Welsh benefits.'

How will you, therefore, ensure that the call by witnesses to the 2019 Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee inquiry into benefits in Wales and options for better delivery, which I was part of, for Jobcentre Plus offices to act as a single point of access by incorporating a local authority Welsh benefits service is acted upon?

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. I'm glad you've repeated what I have been answering to Hannah Blythyn: the importance of the Welsh benefits charter and what it is now delivering. It's going much further beyond those really important discussions that you had back when you were engaging with this back in 2019, and, of course, engaging with Citizens Advice and all those providers through the single advice fund.

Importantly, I met with Fran Targett, the chair of the Welsh benefits steering group—we have a Welsh benefits steering group in Wales—with Matthew Evans, Wrexham council head of revenue and benefits and chair of the local authority senior responsible officer group. I met with them in Wrexham only a few weeks ago, and we talked about the steps that they are taking. They are driving and enabling local authorities across Wales to deliver that access and entitlement to benefits. It was very encouraging to see the partners, including, of course, jobcentres, in the way that this has been taken up.

Can I just give you another example for Flintshire? The school essentials grant allocation for Flintshire local authority for the 2025 grant year is over £400,000, and in the first quarter of the grant year, over £570,000 has been awarded, achieving approximately 125 per cent of the allocated budget and supporting over 4,000 children and young people in Flintshire. So, you can see that, already, this phase 1 is actually delivering to children in need and families in Flintshire and across Wales.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, credit unions form the cornerstone of your Government's financial inclusion strategies, and with more and more high-street banks closing, the role of credit unions has never been so important. I was therefore dismayed last week when one of my local credit unions informed me that they're having to close branches due to the increased cost of employing staff due to the Chancellor's autumn budget. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the UK Treasury about the impact increased national insurance contributions is having on credit unions? What steps are you taking to ensure that more branches are not forced to close, resulting in loss of access to low-cost finance for our poorest citizens?

Thank you for your question, Altaf Hussain.

I'm really pleased I've got the opportunity to give you an update on credit unions, particularly the Celtic Credit Union in your constituency; indeed, this has been raised across the Chamber. I think it's important to report on the situation in terms of Celtic Credit Union. Actually, it's a number of factors that did drive the closure of the Port Talbot office. It is about how footfall in the branch had reduced dramatically, concerns that people using the branch weren't actually engaging. But they have kept their Neath office open. It is important that we recognise that Celtic Credit Union has taken these decisions to purchase and equip a mobile banking vehicle as part of a move to a different operating model. We've been able to provide a budget uplift of 3 per cent for all grant recipients in the third sector. That's how we're helping them, all our voluntary sector, in these difficult times—3 per cent for all grant recipients. For credit unions, this equates to an additional £13,000, distributed across the projects that we fund, because we give them £500,000 a year. So, we're looking at, clearly, how we can help credit unions, because they are so important, as you say. With the closure of banks, credit unions are the ethical way in which people can save and borrow.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, the increase in national insurance contributions is not just impacting credit unions, it is also weighing heavily on those organisations seeking to tackle food and fuel poverty. While it's true to say that many of these services depend on volunteers, it is the paid staff that organise the volunteers and manage the services provided to our most vulnerable citizens. Increased employment costs, as well as the inevitable increase in food and fuel costs thanks to the UK Government's decisions, will impact those services and their ability to help mitigate fuel and food poverty. Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure that services such as foodbanks and warm hubs do not close as a result of financial pressures placed on them as a result of the Treasury's decisions?

Thank you for your question.

It is important that we have given an uplift to the third sector—it's really important to get that message over and to share that with your constituents. We have 40,000 voluntary organisations in Wales, and they're supported by our 19 county voluntary councils and the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. I just wanted to also identify that not only are we providing an uplift of 3 per cent in the third sector, but organisations are also benefiting from three-year funding agreements—that's what they need for stability and sustainability.

There's three-year funding for the third sector partnership council, the 19 county voluntary councils and the WCVA—they're the ones who actually help the local organisations in terms of funding, access to funding, governance. And I do encourage you all, if you have local organisations: in terms of funding needs and issues and challenges, turn to your local county voluntary council. But also, I am, across the portfolio, supporting that 3 per cent increase to third sector grants in line with the 3 per cent uplift also to commissioners and sponsored bodies. So, in fact, third sector infrastructure will receive funding of £25.8 million, a 7 per cent increase on previous years.

I’m also pleased you’ve mentioned warm hubs and volunteers—£1.5 million I’ve announced, of course, for warm hubs this year, and it’s in the draft budget for next year as well. I’ve been visiting warm hubs, where volunteers are making a huge contribution to supporting vulnerable people to access information, advice and guidance, but also breaking down isolation. At Llanddewi Velfrey village hall, after storm Dennis, they brought people together when people lost their electricity supplies. So, the voluntary sector is getting this uplift in the draft budget, and also those longer term three-year funding arrangements.

I am grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary. With key employers and sectors warning that the Chancellor’s decision will impact jobs and growth, as well as pushing up retail prices, it’s more important than ever that we redouble efforts to tackle poverty in Wales. Independent assessments show that Rachel Reeves’s budget will hit low-paid workers in Wales the hardest. These same households are seeing their fuel bills rise, their water bills go up, and they are dreading the council tax bills dropping on their doorsteps. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for finance on the actions your Government can take to shield low-paid workers in Wales from the hardships to come as a result of the UK Government’s decisions? Thank you.

Thank you. I’ve given you some feedback on the ways in which we’re supporting the third sector in particular. I would say also, just in terms of the support we are giving, we must remember as well—and this applies to smaller organisations and employers—that the employment allowance—that’s the Government initiative that reduces eligible national insurance liability—is, of course, being increased from April of next year to £10,500 for the tax year 2025-26. That is for the smaller charities and employers. It’s important to say that charities and eligible businesses can claim the allowance to reduce their secondary class 1 national insurance contributions. And it helps young people as well. So, we must make sure that information gets through.

But of course, what we are doing in terms of tackling child poverty, which we are taking forward, is not just making sure that everyone takes up the entitlements—we’ve been talking about that in the earlier questions—but also just to recognise the other ways in which we are supporting people who may be affected. I think last week, the fact that we announced that thousands more post-16 learners in colleges and sixth forms will receive the education maintenance allowance, following the decision to uplift the household income thresholds, will result in so many more young people, as well as families and people in work, being able to apply for the education maintenance allowance.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation published its latest report on poverty, and the findings are damning. Child poverty is rising across the UK, and Wales is set to have the highest rate. By 2029, over 34 per cent of children in Wales will be living in poverty—more than in England, more than in Northern Ireland. One part of the UK is expected to do better—Scotland. There, child poverty is actually expected to fall. Why? Well, the report says it’s mainly because of the Scottish child payment—a policy Scotland can deliver, of course, because they have more powers over welfare than we do. The UK Labour Government have refused to take crucial steps so far on repairing the social security system, such as scrapping the two-child limit and benefit cap, which used to, of course, be called for by yourselves.

When I’ve asked the First Minister about action on child poverty, she always responds with how economic growth is the answer. But this report argues that we will fail to shift the dial on child poverty if we rely on rising economic growth alone to boost low-income family finances. So, Cabinet Secretary, what’s your response to this report, and Wales being on course for the worst child poverty rates in the UK, even though we have a change of Government in Westminster? Do you agree that Scotland’s ability to control social security has allowed them to take meaningful action on child poverty? Will you make a stronger case for Wales to have these powers?

Thank you very much, Sioned Williams. Of course, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report does provide a very stark view of the UK picture for those people living in poverty, and I’m committed, as is the whole Welsh Government, to taking action. It is about working collaboratively both in Government and with people across Wales to address these issues, with our local authorities, our NHS, our third sector. We’re doing all we can, within our powers, to support people and get money into people’s pockets, as I’ve described, and our child poverty strategy sets out long-term ambitions for tackling poverty.

I’m pleased that I actually now work closely with the UK Government and other devolved Governments through the four nations ministerial group on the UK child poverty strategy. That’s really helpful because I’m sitting in a four nations ministerial group with colleagues from Scottish Government, so they can share their experience of what it means to have those powers with the Northern Ireland Executive, with me as Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary, as well as led by UK Government Ministers. So, we are looking at what it means to have those powers, and also looking, I have to say, really importantly, at our social security system, which, of course, in terms of—. We use the levers that we have. But these are all being raised at that ministerial group.

That’s good to hear, so I’d like to ask if you could just update us on what’s in the mind of the UK Government as regards devolving those powers and that resource to Wales to be able to make that difference and shift that dial, because, obviously, action is needed. Plaid Cymru, the children’s commissioner and the Senedd’s Equality and Social Justice Committee have long been calling for targets in the child poverty strategy because, without those clear and binding targets, how do we know if we’re even making the difference that we need to make, given the powers that we have?

The Joseph Rowntree report points at Scotland. They’ve introduced legal targets to tackle child poverty, and they’re the only UK nation predicted to see child poverty fall. I don’t think that’s a coincidence; it’s the result of taking action, making commitments, and being held accountable. We’ve got to remember, this isn’t just about statistics; it’s about families, it’s about children, it’s about the future of our nation. Every child will be affected when they’re growing up in poverty— their education, their life chances, their health. So, I’d like to know, in light of this report by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, why do you believe that the Welsh Government can truly tackle child poverty without those statutory targets to help drive and measure progress?

I thank you for that supplementary question. It is important that you already have had or will be having in the Equality and Social Justice Committee a briefing from Professor Rod Hick about ways in which we can assess the impact of our child poverty strategy, given the powers that we have. Of course, the key powers and levers lie in tax and benefits. That’s why it is so important that I am sitting on that four nations ministerial group. Also, as you know, I have been progressing and we are now doing more research about how we could access and follow on our commitments to looking at devolving the administration of benefits to Wales. That is still within our programme for government, and that is what we’re doing. But I would say also that it is important that we do use our powers, and with our local authorities, the Welsh benefits charter, but also the things that we’re doing with Policy in Practice, also funding the Fuel Bank Foundation to help people in fuel crisis. I’ve been raising this at the four nations meeting, that it’s tackling food poverty, tackling fuel poverty and getting a decent social security system that should be a UK-wide ambition.

It certainly should be a UK-wide ambition, but we haven’t seen action on it so far from the UK Labour Government. Many reports have shown that women, particularly those from marginalised backgrounds, bear the brunt of economic hardship, whether through the gender pay gap, pension gap, a lack of access to affordable childcare or insecure, low-paid jobs. The Wales Women’s Budget Group and Women’s Equality Network Wales point to the deprioritisation of equalities issues in the last budget, highlighting the urgent need, therefore, for gender budgeting in Wales, and that women in Wales, particularly those facing specific intersectional disadvantages, are being further pushed into debt and poverty. So, it’s essential to prevent decisions that deepen that inequality. Some progress has been made, but we're still waiting for the publication of evaluations of the Welsh Government's remaining three gender budgeting pilots, which were scheduled to end by 2023. These pilots, as I say, are crucial for shaping future policies. So, Cabinet Secretary, when will we see the results of those pilots? What work are you undertaking to progress further the roll-out of gender budgeting, and when can we expect to see the evaluation of those pilots published?

Thank you very much for your question.

Those pilots are crucially important, the gender budgeting pilots. And can I say how much I welcome and have always welcomed the work of the Wales Women's Budget Group, to make sure that we are advised not just by people, but women particularly with lived experience, representing people with lived experience, and particularly those who are most marginalised? As you say, this is very intersectional and it's very much reflected in our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and will be reflected in our disability rights action plan, as well as looking at this particularly from a gender perspective. So, yes, we will be responding on those points to account for the impact of the gender budgeting pilots.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. Third Sector Support Wales will receive core funding of £5.677 million in 2024-25, and £221,121 of this funding goes to the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services, to help local voluntary organisations with fundraising, good governance, safeguarding and volunteering.

Cabinet Secretary, it is crucial that there is support for the sector, given the vital services that charities provide to so many people in our communities. Now, in my own constituency, Adam's Bucketful of Hope is an example of a local charity that has raised huge amounts of money for cancer services, and it also provides support services for those with cancer and their families from its community centre. In fact, its community centre is so popular that the charity needs to move to bigger premises in order to allow them to provide services to more users. Now, the historic Foley House in Haverfordwest has been empty for a number of years, and should Adam's Bucketful of Hope be able to get sufficient funding to secure the building, it would bring an empty building back into use and help the charity to deliver much needed therapies and support in the community. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in acknowledging the role that charities like Adam's Bucketful of Hope play in our local communities, and can you tell us what support is available to help charities like this, who are hoping to acquire bigger premises so that they can continue to support as many people as possible?

Thank you very much, Paul Davies, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to praise Adam's Bucketful of Hope, your charity in Pembrokeshire, and, of course, that means praising the volunteers, because I'm sure it's very much volunteer led. When I was recently in Pembrokeshire, visiting Llanddewi Velfrey village hall—I've mentioned this already—following storm Bert, it was so good to meet not just the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services but many of the voluntary groups that you represent in your constituency. Now, I would suggest that they do approach the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services for advice on funding routes, but I would say that this looks to me like the opportunity for either a community asset loan or, indeed, the community facilities programme, which we fund and which, of course, has capital grants of up to £300,000 to enable community-led projects to purchase or improve community facilities, and the programme, since 2015, has funded 23 projects in Pembrokeshire, awarding grants worth over £2.5 million.

Thank you, Natasha Asghar. We continue to take action across Wales, including South Wales East, to tackle poverty. We have invested almost £5 billion between 2022 and 2025 in schemes that help people access their entitlements and help keep money in people’s pockets and target support at people who need it most.

Thank you for your response. Cabinet Secretary, as of 2018, there were 26,000 households living in fuel poverty in my region of south-east Wales alone. The Welsh Government's Warm Homes scheme was launched to tackle this problem, although we know that progress has been painfully slow, with warnings that it will take more than 100 years to retrofit all homes at risk of fuel poverty. Clearly, there is a big chunk of work that needs to be done here if the Government is going to hit its target and have no more than 5 per cent of households in Wales living in fuel poverty by 2035. We need to be lifting more people out of fuel poverty, Cabinet Secretary, yet it would appear that not everyone sees it like this, with the Labour Chancellor cruelly snatching winter fuel payments away from our pensioners. By your own admission, Cabinet Secretary, this callous and unforgiveable act risks pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty. My Welsh Conservative colleagues and I firmly believe that this Government should create a Welsh winter fuel payment fund to support our pensioners who have been punished by the Labour Government in Westminster. So, will you commit to doing just that, Cabinet Secretary? And if not, what do you say to those pensioners who are facing the tough decision between heating and eating? Thank you.

Well, I hope you did read the written statement that I produced last week on tackling fuel poverty—a key commitment of the Welsh Government. And as I've said more than once this afternoon, an important way to tackle fuel poverty is to get more money into people's pockets. Clearly, that's what we need to do in terms of our powers and our responsibilities, and that strong benefit take-up campaign, which included the pension credit campaign on the take-up of pension credit, which would lead to eligibility for the winter fuel payment. And I do draw attention to our latest media burst for our 'Claim what's yours' national benefits take-up campaign. It started in January and will run through to the end of March, and this is a call to action to signpost people to ensure that they can claim what's theirs.

You did mention the Warm Homes programme as well, and it is important that we maximise the reach of Warm Homes Nest with the Welsh Local Government Association, the local authorities, and ensure that we leverage funding from Westminster through schemes such as the energy companies obligation scheme.

I wanted to focus on a similar issue. The UK Government's decision to cut the winter fuel allowance for so many thousands of pensioners is cutting cruelly into people's lives. And what makes this worse is that this has been a deliberate decision made by Westminster, which could be reversed. They have the power to change this and they're choosing not to. A survey conducted by Unite in Wales has found that worrying numbers of people have had to change how they live because of this cut. Many have said that they've felt hungry more often or become ill as a result of not having the heating on. One person told Unite that their wife and they have to live in one room and ration themselves to one hot meal a day. This is happening in the twenty-first century in what is meant to be one of the richest places in the world, and it's happening on Westminster's watch. Now, I do commend you for the work that you are doing to, as you say, get more money into people's pockets, but will your Government do all it can to bring pressure on the Westminster Government to change and reverse this terrible policy, which is making people's lives miserable?

Well, thank you for that supplementary question. As I said, I'm very much looking forward to meeting Unite—Hannah Blythyn will be joining me—and the pensioners as well, not just to hear from them but also to be able to tell them and work with them on ways in which we are enabling pensioners, particularly older people, to take up all the benefits that they're entitled to. And I would say that that also includes not just the fuel voucher but discretionary assistance schemes as well as the Warm Homes programme. But I just need to say, of course, and I've said this before in this Chamber, the winter fuel payment is devolved to Northern Ireland and it will be to Scotland from 2025. It's not devolved to Wales, so we're not able to legislate for an equivalent winter fuel payment scheme. But what we need to do is make sure that we do enable people to take up the benefits that they are entitled to in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Criminal justice is reserved to the UK Government, but we work together with policing partners to protect communities across Wales, and North Wales Police have provided reassurances on their robust approach to supporting communities in Anglesey.

Thank you very much for that response. CCTV cameras are one of those tools that we have in order to tackle criminal behaviour, but it's urban areas that are most likely to have those CCTV cameras, whilst many of the people I represent, of course, live in rural areas. Now, the Plaid Cymru group of councillors on Anglesey have been leading on calls for a mobile CCTV resource that could be introduced in order to tackle cases of agricultural theft, possibly, or anti-social behaviour or criminal damage in more rural areas. Now, of course, there would be a need to work across different agencies to provide this—the UK Government, the Welsh Government, local authorities and community councils, and, of course, the police themselves and police and crime commissioners. But will the Minister provide a commitment to be willing to work with stakeholders in order to introduce resources that could mean that people living in more rural areas can feel that work is being done to keep them safe?

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth, and I think it’s particularly important that you focus on tackling crime and rural crime, and although not directly devolved, and, indeed, use of CCTV is governed by the Information Commissioner’s Office, it's a really important tool in safeguarding public places and helping to deter crime and enhancing national security. I would say also the partnership with the police in north Wales, and particularly in your constituency—. The police in Anglesey have told us about initiatives like We Don't Buy Crime—I'm sure you're aware of it—and community alerts. But I will engage with the Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales and police chiefs to look at the very issues that you’ve raised today.

Diolch yn fawr, Sam Rowlands. My officials will consult on four pieces of Gypsy and Traveller guidance in coming weeks with key stakeholders, aiming to publish final guidance in the summer of 2025. As part of this consultation, direct engagement on the draft guidance documents will also take place with community members.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. I joined a meeting recently with Carolyn Thomas and Jack Sargeant with Flintshire County Council, political leaders and officers, and I was really pleased to see the provision that they provide for Gypsies and Travellers in Flintshire, providing more than enough allocated sites, according to the assessed need. But the council shared with us some of the challenges they're having with illegal sites in the council area at the moment, with 10 new illegal sites being established in the county within the last 12 months, meaning there are now currently 15 illegal sites in one county area. And they shared with us that it's taking up to five years to deal with these illegal sites, and that’s causing great pressure on council resources, both personnel and financial; it’s causing huge concern in the communities, but most importantly, it's not helping the cause and needs of the Gypsy and Traveller community on sites that aren't necessarily appropriate for them. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you'd be willing to meet, as part of the consultation, perhaps, with myself and perhaps other colleagues in the room, and also with Flintshire County Council to understand the specific issues that they're facing, to help inform some of your work. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Sam Rowlands. I was aware of the meeting that you held with Flintshire County Council, and I believe with planning officials as well, and with councillors as well as Senedd Members. I think it's going to be really useful that we're consulting on this guidance, which includes managing unauthorised encampments, how you manage Gypsy and Traveller sites in Wales and undertaking those Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, which I have approved for Flintshire, but I would be very happy to engage with you on this issue.

I think it is important also—and I'm glad that you recognise this—that we do understand the needs of Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people in terms of what their housing needs are, including unauthorised use, but also the fact that many are now seeking to have private pitches as well as transit pitches. So, I would be glad to engage with you and colleagues, our Senedd Members, who were at that meeting, and Flintshire council.

Thank you for that question, Laura Anne. I welcome the proposed residential women’s centre in Swansea as an alternative to custody. I engage regularly with Lord Timpson, Minister for prisons, parole, probation and reducing reoffending on this matter.

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, there is no prison for women in Wales, and we desperately need one. Women who are arrested in Wales are taken to England. This means that there are long journeys on public transport or in cars from where the prisoners lived to where they are imprisoned. Prisoners who receive visits are 39 per cent less likely to return to prison, and yet we have a prison system here in Wales where women are placed many miles away from family and friends across the border in England. This is clearly no way to rehabilitate offenders, and it's evident in the high rates of reoffending for women in Wales compared with men. Cabinet Secretary, can you look into working with the UK Government to create a women's prison here in Wales, as one is well overdue? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Laura Anne, for your supplementary question. I know that you will understand that our policy position remains absolutely clear that there should be no additional prison places in Wales, including for women. This is because our vision for justice is a preventative, trauma-informed approach that addresses those very underlying causes of offending and stops crime happening in the first place. I'm grateful that you acknowledge the fact that we do need—. I think the case you make, and the arguments and the evidence you give point us to the importance of having a women's residential centre as an alternative to prison. It's a key priority of the women's justice blueprint, it's a priority, indeed, of the new UK Government, and I emphasised this to Lord Timpson when we met on 18 September.

Julie Morgan.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much for calling me for this supplementary question, and I do recognise what the Cabinet Secretary has said in response. I've campaigned not to have a women's prison in Wales for many years, along with others in this room, for the reasons that the Cabinet Secretary has given. I think it's very important to remember that over half of the women in prison are mothers, affecting 17,000 children a year in the UK, and it is absolutely essential that we tackle this issue by providing residential centres. I am really very anxious to know what progress is being made on the residential centre planned in Wales and whether the discussions with the UK Government are productive, because we do seem to have been waiting a very long time for this women's residential centre to actually happen.

Thank you very much for that supplementary question. It is something on which we should unite in this Chamber, shouldn't we, to ensure that we actually get this residential women's centre, because I should have said, responding to Laura Anne earlier on, that it was actually a former Conservative UK Government that announced that we should have a pilot residential women's centre in Wales, back in May 2022. I am as impatient as you are, who campaigned for this residential women's centre, that it should now come to fruition. We have a site now; we've had difficulty in terms of securing that site.

I think it's really important that Laura Anne has mentioned the distances that people have to travel. Well, yes, in the meantime, we are funding Visiting Mum initiatives, supporting women, as we can, who are in prisons, and, indeed, many of us have visited women prisons like Eastwood Park outside of Wales and in Styal outside north Wales. We must get this residential women's centre open, and I believe that the Lord Chancellor in October announced very clearly the establishment of the Women's Justice Board. We've already attended one meeting, and she is in favour of residential women's centres. So, I'm grateful for the questions today, which strengthen that case.

Question 8 finally. James Evans.

Thank you, James Evans. Everyone in fuel poverty, including park homes residents, can receive free energy advice and support through our Warm Homes Nest scheme to heat their homes in a more efficient way. My recent written statement outlined other support, such as fuel vouchers, warm hubs and the discretionary assistance fund.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Many park home owners across Wales are being charged excessive amounts for water bills, because they're not allowed to install water meters outside their property due to park home owners actually owning the parks themselves not allowing them to do so. That is pushing many people into fuel poverty. Will you and the Welsh Government commit to granting residents of mobile park homes the ability to have a water meter put on their premises to stop park home owners in general making excessive profits out of people for their water bills. I think it's an absolute shame that we don't allow people to do this, and it's something that I think needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

Thank you for drawing attention to this point, James Evans. I mean, park home owners can access the discretionary assistance fund towards fuel and energy costs, and hopefully we can direct your constituents to that, as well as the Fuel Bank Foundation in terms of energy costs. But you've raised an issue about water, the cost and access to water meters to manage the cost of water, and I will certainly be taking this up to give you an answer on that point.FootnoteLink

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the questions to the Senedd Commission, and today's question is to be answered by Joyce Watson and the question is to be asked by James Evans.

I thank you for that question. The armed forces covenant is a promise ensuring that those who serve or have served in the armed forces are treated fairly. While the Commission is currently not a signatory of the covenant, the Commission is proud to support employees who serve in the reserve or cadet forces. The Commission offers up to five days of paid special leave each year to attend the annual training camp, with further flexibility if additional time is required for training. This is to ensure that our employees can fulfil their training requirements without financial impact. If an employee is called up for service with the reserve forces, the Commission is committed to safeguarding their employment in accordance with the Reserve Forces (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985. We will ensure that employees can return to the same role, with terms and conditions no less favourable than if they had not been mobilised. Our commitment reflects the value that we place on those who serve, ensuring that they can balance their military and civilian responsibilities with confidence and security.

I'd like to thank the Commissioner for her answer there. It is disappointing that the Senedd Commission will not sign the armed forces covenant. I'd be quite interested to hear from you why the Senedd Commission is not willing to sign the armed forces covenant. Were there any specific policy reasons why you chose not to do that, or is it something, perhaps, that the Commission would look to do in the future? Because there are many opportunities that the armed forces covenant does provide, with encouraging veterans and those who serve in our armed forces who did serve to actually become employees of the Senedd to improve our diversity amongst our staff here as well. Because some of those ex-veterans have got huge skills that they could bring to the Senedd Commission and to our staff base here. So, I'd be very interested to know why the Senedd Commission hasn't signed the armed forces covenant and what work you are doing to increase the amount of veterans who have opportunities to come and work for the Senedd Commission here and bring the skills that they've learnt in our armed forces to benefit our Senedd.

We do recognise the unique challenges that veterans who we employ may face when transitioning into civilian life, and are committed to providing comprehensive support for their well-being. The Commission's employee assistance programme offers a confidential, 24/7 support service designed to help veterans and their line managers navigate both personal and professional challenges, and that service goes beyond counselling, providing expert guidance on debt management, legal advice, couple counselling, management coaching and ensuring that support is tailored to individual needs. The Commission is also exploring implementing a veterans guaranteed interview scheme—a core principle of the covenant—and that aims to provide veterans with the opportunity to demonstrate their ability beyond the initial application stage when applying for jobs with the Commission. Now, those are things that we are already doing, and, of course, we do currently have some of those people under our employment.

You raised the question of why we have not signed it, and it isn't a case of not wanting to—I want to make that perfectly clear—but signing the covenant will require an organisation to follow through on the commitments, and that may require human resource policy changes, training or additional support measures. Employers who support reservists may need to accommodate absences—and we do that already—or deployment, which could impact workforce planning. But there are limited benefits for some organisations, if an organisation has little interaction.

I do know that the House of Commons is a signatory of the covenant, but I also know that no other UK legislature has signed. So, what I’m really saying here is, if it is the will of the Senedd to explore the opportunity of signing the covenant, then we would certainly go along with that wish. That is what I wanted, really, to say. We haven’t had a request as yet, by individual employees or trade unions, to sign it. If we receive any such request, of course, we'd look at it, along with the rest of the Senedd.

Item 4 is next, the topical questions. The first of these questions is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Education. Adam Price will ask the question.

Violence against staff and pupils in schools is completely unacceptable, and incidents like the one at Ysgol Dyffryn Amman are very rare. Our guidance is clear on the powers that schools have around the use of reasonable force, searching for weapons and what can be grounds for exclusion.

I think that the Cabinet Secretary has now confirmed, I believe, that there is going to be a summit on school behaviour—in March, I believe. The NASUWT was the original union that called for this. They describe the current situation as a behaviour crisis. I was wondering if the Cabinet Secretary, in holding the summit, now shares that assessment. Can she say a little bit more about what’s going to be discussed during the summit? Are some of the policy ideas, for example, that have been discussed in the last few days—the use of security guards, the use of scanners in schools, extending the powers of teachers to search without consent, the content of behaviour management policies, the use and resourcing of pupil referral units—are all of these ideas in scope, and are we looking around the world, really, at what works, in order to apply those lessons to Wales?

And talking of lessons, is the Cabinet Secretary able to share with us already today—or will it be shared at the summit—what you think the lessons are that have been learned so far from the incident at Ysgol Dyffryn Amman? As a backdrop to the summit, will there be evidence in terms of what's the scale of the problem in terms of violence, physical and verbal abuse in our schools? And are you committing, Cabinet Secretary—? Beyond the summit itself as an event, are you committing to a process that will result in an action plan of commitments in terms of policy resourcing and all the other important matters, so that we can see those ideas actually put into action?

Thank you very much, Adam, for those questions. You began by saying that I had now committed to a behaviour summit. I made that commitment quite some time ago now, and that was made on the back of the conversations that I was having, going out and about in Wales and talking to school practitioners, as well as, obviously, our trade union partners.

I am concerned about behaviour in schools. I think that what we are seeing in schools is that we are seeing more and more children and young people with increasing complexity, with additional learning needs, with mental health issues. And we're also, as a result, seeing more challenges with behaviour. I do believe that the situation has become worse since the pandemic. So, that’s why, after discussions with our trade union colleagues, I agreed to hold the summit.

Now, you asked about the summit, and I just wanted to be clear that the summit is not the only thing that we are doing. We were working anyway on a behaviour toolkit to support headteachers and senior leaders in schools in making well-informed decisions about behaviour policies, and also to help with strategies to prevent behavioural issues and to deal with issues when they happen and prevent problems escalating.

We also, though, commissioned Estyn to undertake a thematic review on behaviour in schools, and that work is due to be published in May. And in addition to that, we commissioned Bangor University to undertake research into disruptive classroom behaviours and effective mitigation, and we wanted to understand the nature and volume of challenging and school-based disruptive behaviour. That research will explore the range and effectiveness of measures currently used in schools and settings to address challenging behaviours. So, there’s a range of work going on, and we are holding the summit after Estyn has reported—they’re reporting in May—because I’m really keen that we’ve got the maximum amount of information, and Estyn will be involved in the summit.

You referred to what we would be discussing in the summit. We’re currently working with trade unions and other partners to scope out the summit. It is going to look at a range of issues, and I’m very keen, as part of that, to look at issues such as what’s happened in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman. That’s very important too. We’re going to be taking that work forward through the summit, but I’m really keen that it is action focused, really, and that we have a chance to look at all the issues that are causing problems and come up with a very clear action plan.

Now, you mentioned things like whether schools can search pupils without consent. They can already search pupils without consent for a weapon, such as a knife, so that is already in place. And then, just in terms of the lessons from Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, I just wanted to assure the Member—and you’ll recall that I paid tribute to the way that the school and the local authority had handled the incident at the time. But, following that, we also contacted all local authorities to make sure that they could provide us with assurance that their emergency policies were up to date, and we also reviewed our emergency planning and response guidance in light of the learning from the incident. Now that the trial is over, there will, as I’m sure you can appreciate, be a process that’s gone through to learn the wider lessons of what happened in the run-up to that terrible day in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, and we’re speaking with the local authority about the best way to understand and learn from what happened. And I’m really keen that we make sure that any lessons then are, obviously, shared across Wales, whether it’s by the behaviour summit, if lessons have emerged by then, or, if not, we will find other routes.

Cabinet Secretary, it’s clear that violence in schools is, concerningly, becoming more and more frequent, and it’s an issue that needs tackling urgently. We’ve talked about the horrific incident in Ammanford, but this is an issue that’s much more widespread and much more deep rooted. In recent weeks, we’ve seen schools in Pembrokeshire, north Port Talbot, Caerphilly and my own patch of Newport placed on lockdown, and only today South Wales Police issued a statement about a knife reportedly being found in a bag of a student at a school in Bridgend. Nobody—and I mean nobody—should be going into work with fears of being attacked, and schools should be a safe place for all pupils, students and everyone else in between.

Of course, as we’ve seen in the news recently, this isn’t just an issue exclusive to Wales. So, what discussions have you had with the UK Government about steps that they’re taking, and are there any practices that we can adopt here in Wales? In the NASUWT’s recent Big Question survey, 23 per cent of professionals said physical assault on teachers caused them the greatest concern when they were in the classroom, with 32 per cent saying it was threatening behaviour, and 41 per cent deeming it to be violence between pupils. From my understanding, Welsh Government guidance says carrying a weapon no longer applies as a reason for exclusion. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you please confirm if this still is the case today, and will you commit to a thorough review of all school safety policies to ensure we protect our school communities going forward? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Natasha, and there were quite a few questions there. Can I just be clear that our exclusions guidance does say that schools can exclude a pupil permanently for carrying a weapon? That is the case at the moment, and, as I said to Adam Price, there is also the power to search pupils without consent, and there are further powers to search with consent for other items. But the power without consent deals with actual weapons.

As I said to Adam Price, I am really worried about what we are seeing in schools in terms of behaviour, and I think it does come down to the complexity. We're seeing more and more young people who aren't able to self-regulate in schools. That's why we're putting so much emphasis on mental health. But I hope that, by bringing everybody together now in the summit, we will be able to explore these issues in detail. I was speaking to Bridget Phillipson only this morning, actually, about this issue, and also, obviously, there was the tragic death of the young person in Sheffield on Monday.

In terms of learning from good practice—and I didn't answer Adam's point on that—we're always keen to look at good practice wherever it is. We're very actively involved in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, proactively involved with the OECD, and, when I met the OECD recently, this was one of the issues I discussed with them, around behaviour. We talked about how some schools have maybe not got that sense of belonging anymore, and that that's something that we really need to foster. The OECD are coming to Wales in the spring now, and we're doing a peer learning event with them. But we are very keen to learn from wherever good practice is, and I'll be continuing to discuss these issues with the UK Government.

Thank you to Adam Price for tabling this important question. Obviously, the incident that we saw in Ammanford was truly shocking, and I just want to pay tribute as well to the staff involved, particularly the staff, I think, that spoke bravely at the conclusion of the case and shared their experience in terms of what they had gone through. Unfortunately, this is an issue that's becoming more and more prevalent. We saw the issue just yesterday in Bryntirion Comprehensive School in Bridgend, where a pupil carried a knife, and the really, really tragic incident we saw on Monday in Sheffield, where a young person lost their life.

Adam mentioned a series of actions that could be taken by the Welsh Government, whether that be security guards and screening, enhanced powers for teaching staff, and, whilst I think those certainly do need to be considered, I think you overlook the root of the problem here, which is that young people and their dynamic and their sense of belonging in a school has changed, and it has changed since the pandemic. So, I wonder what lessons the Welsh Government is learning in terms of how young people's interaction with school, if you like, has changed as a consequence of the pandemic, as a consequence of not attending school on a regular basis, and then what lessons we can learn for that generation and for future generations so that the impacts of the pandemic are truly felt, known and understood.

Thank you very much, Tom. I'm aware of the incident in Bryntirion school, which is currently under investigation, so I'm not in a position to comment on that. I most certainly do not overlook the root of the problems. I think I've referred very explicitly to some of the challenges that we're seeing in our schools. We're seeing more and more children and young people who are having emotional problems, who are struggling to self-regulate, more and more children and young people presenting with complex ALN, and behaviour is communication, isn't it? We have to remember that. So, I am acutely aware of the root of the problems, and that's why as a Government we are placing so much emphasis on the mental health and well-being of our learners.

We have a whole-school approach to mental health in Wales, we have counselling available to all learners aged six and above, and that has been the case for years in Wales, unlike over the border. We've got child and adolescent mental health services inreach in schools and we've got mental health as a statutory part of our curriculum. So, we are very much focused on tackling the root of the problem, but one of the things that I’ve been talking about is that what we are seeing is a load of societal problems landing in schools, really. They’re always open, they’re there, and we have also, I think, seen something of a disconnect, maybe a breakdown in that contract between schools and families that we need to address.

So, as part of the work that we’re doing on behaviour, we’re also going to be engaging with young people and with families as well. I do think it preceded the pandemic. Certainly, when I was Chair of the committee, I was hugely concerned about mental health then, and it wasn’t about mental illness, it was about young people who were distressed about what was going on in their lives. But we are committed to tackling that, so the behaviour summit will help.

As I say, we want to engage with children and young people as well, but I’m also keen to work with colleagues across Government, because this is a cross-Government problem—it’s about early years, right back to parent-infant relationships; it’s about early intervention from things like social care; it’s about job opportunities. So, there is a role for everybody in the Government to play to make a brighter future for our young people and hopefully stem this tide of distress that we’re seeing.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The next topical question will be from Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. National Museum Cardiff is temporarily closed for a few days to deal with a mechanical issue in an isolated area of the building. The repairs are under way and I look forward to the doors being open to the public again very soon.

Diolch, Weinidog. I hope you can appreciate why this is of such grave concern, not only to us as Senedd Members, but to members of the public. We’ve heard warnings from Amgueddfa Cymru and Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru for a number of years that the state of the buildings, because of chronic underinvestment by this Welsh Labour Government and previous ones, is putting the national collections at risk. We were warned by Jane Richardson, chief executive of Amgueddfa Cymru, when she appeared before the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee on 6 December 2023, that without urgent repairs to the mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems at the National Museum Cardiff, our institutions would struggle to function.

We’ve seen pictures of water streaming into galleries. Buckets to cope with leaks from the roof have become as normal a part of the national collections as the works themselves. And yet, you, as Minister, do not think that there is a crisis. You’ve confirmed mechanical failures, and we’ve seen the consequences of this ignorance elsewhere, as I’ve mentioned countless times before, in Brazil, where repeated warnings fell on deaf years and the results were catastrophic: a fire that destroyed 92.5 per cent of their national collections—20 million objects.

And here in Wales, we’ve already had our own close call, with a fire breaking out at the national library a few years ago. So, you can understand, I hope, why we’re concerned to see this happening to National Museum Cardiff. Minister, what assurances can you provide that our national collections are safe? And how do Welsh Government plan to tackle the complete backlog of maintenance across all Amgueddfa Cymru sites and at our national library, not just in next year’s budget, but beyond next year's budget?

The people of Wales own these collections, not the museum, not the library, not the Government. It's on behalf of the people of Wales and future generations that I ask you to show that you understand how serious this situation is and that you have a plan to tackle this issue.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, for the supplementary question and the opportunity to address the matter today. Llywydd, the Member points to the importance of the collections to the people of Wales, and I couldn't agree any more. That's why I think, when we talk about the national museum, we are talking about an institution that is incredibly close to the hearts of many of us across the country. And in that vein, I have always believed that it is incredibly important, Presiding Officer, to do all that we can to inform ourselves of the facts, before we paint a wider picture to the public.

It was unfortunate that the Member was unable to join the spokespersons' briefing I arranged from the museum yesterday, before taking to the floor of the Senedd—[Interruption.]—before taking to the floor of the Senedd, talking about structural issues that put our collections at risk. I am glad you have now had the opportunity to have the spokespersons' briefing I arranged again today, to understand that situation.

Let me be clear, Presiding Officer, the museum is closed because of a mechanical issue, not a structural issue. Amgueddfa Cymru is working to resolve this issue as quickly as possible. I am in regular contact with the museum. The Member asked for assurances around the national collections. Both the chair and chief executive of Amgueddfa Cymru have assured me that the national collections in their care are safe. The repair team at Amgueddfa Cymru is working diligently to address this issue, and I'm grateful to them for that.

National Museum Cardiff is an almost 100-year-old building, and, as a result, is a complex building. The museum decided to close the building to ensure that the repairs could be undertaken as quickly as possible, with fewer people on site. The Member knows that, in 2024-25, we awarded Amgueddfa Cymru an additional £1.3 million for urgent works at National Museum Cardiff, which are progressing as planned. The Member points to wider issues that I am already aware of in terms of the Amgueddfa Cymru estate and maintaining its estate. That's why, Presiding Officer, we have acted to help address this, with significant investment needed to make those improvements across sites, including in the draft budget that the Member yesterday tried to vote down. Perhaps, Presiding Officer, the Member and her party will want to reflect on that position before the final budget, in terms of supporting the arts sector.

The establishment of the national museum, at the beginning of the twentieth century, was an important milestone in the history of Wales as a nation. The museum and the University of Wales in Cardiff were among a number of institutions that secured Wales's status as a nation. Of course, unfortunately, the building is more than just the national museum, it's also the national gallery for Wales. So, Wales has no access at the moment to our national museum or our national gallery.

I'm sure you'll find out soon enough, if you haven't already, Gweinidog, with little Noah, how popular the museum is with children. The Sunday before the closure, my children were there for the third time to visit the dinosaurs—the dinosaurs are very, very popular at the museum. For many children in Wales, the national museum is the first experience of history, of art, and of culture.

Now, with everything happening in the culture scene, it's difficult not to feel that there's a decline. The simple question is—. And the national museum is very important on many levels. The memorial service for Baroness Randerson is due to be held there on Monday. Now, my simple question is, or two simple questions: why was it closed so suddenly, without any warning, and what is 'opening very soon'? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Rhys. I'm grateful for those questions there. He's right to point to the importance of the institution to many, many people. I too had the pleasure of enjoying the dinosaurs at the beginning of this year, but not just the dinosaurs, Presiding Officer. I spent some time with my family there, and my son decided to pick the sign of the supporting the striking miners in the strike exhibition—I suspect just like his dad. So, I'm grateful to the Member for raising those points and the importance to his constituents and the people of Wales and beyond.

The Member pointed to two questions there. Firstly, why was the museum closed so suddenly? Well, mechanical issues do happen, and they happen suddenly on certain occasions—on certain occasions, I should know, Presiding Officer, as I sought to fix many of these types of issues in industry, and it happens all of the time.

Presiding Officer, I hear lots of comments from the Plaid Cymru benches, but I think this deserves the importance and respect of listening to an answer when it’s of this importance. Rhys ab Owen then asks about what is 'opening very soon'. Well, I’m hoping that, very soon, the National Museum Cardiff will be opening its doors to the public, so that he, his constituents and, no doubt, his family, will be able to enjoy the dinosaurs and all of the other things that the museum offers very soon.

I’m pleased to speak on this issue this afternoon. It’s a huge disappointment that the national museum in Cardiff has been forced to close, and I hope they are able to reopen their doors as soon as possible.

And I do have to side with you, Minister, there, in saying that it’s a shame that the Plaid Cymru spokesperson was unable to make themselves available for that call yesterday, because information and knowledge are key in these matters. And, I think, if those meetings and briefings would have been attended, then perhaps this debate in the Senedd might not have happened anyway, because I had the reassurances from the chief executive of Cardiff museum myself that all the efforts are being made to indeed reopen.

It's a topical question, so it's the question you want to focus on.

Absolutely. One of the questions that I raised in the briefing to the chief executive was indeed the funding, and whether some of those issues might have been negated by better or enhanced funding from the Welsh Government, or indeed other revenue streams that could be available to the museum, in terms of their ability to make money through the selling of things like merchandise, cafe bar facilities, that sort of thing, to enhance people’s experiences, but then also to generate another stream of income.

So, I’m just keen to get an answer from you, Minister, on how you’re going to work with the amgueddfa to ensure that they’ve got the resources that they need, indeed, to reopen their doors as soon as possible, and on what collaborative work you’re going to be doing with them to ensure that this doesn’t happen again, and that the artefacts and the collections can be safe for people now and for future generations in Wales to enjoy.

Well, I’m grateful, Gareth, for the questions and for the comments in support of the museum and, more widely, the estate of Amgueddfa Cymru. Presiding Officer, I’m grateful to the Member for finding time yesterday to have that briefing, and as I pointed out earlier, I am grateful to the Plaid spokesperson for taking the time today to be able to understand that situation.

The Member points to a number of things. He references funding and working in collaboration. Well, we’ll go on working in collaboration with Amgueddfa Cymru and the leadership there. I have already met with the chair and chief executive, and I’m receiving regular updates on this particular issue. But I’ll go on working in collaboration with them in the future.

In terms of funding for Amgueddfa Cymru, I mentioned earlier the £1.3 million in the 2024-25 budget for urgent works at National Museum Cardiff. There is more money in terms of capital investment in the draft budget, which all Members have the opportunity to support, Presiding Officer. Gareth then points to alternative opportunities to bring moneys into the museum and the institution. I think he referenced merchandise. Well, Llywydd, I took the opportunity to enter Amgueddfa Cymru’s shop on the way out after my visit with family a few weeks ago, and found myself buying a magnet for the fridge that supported the miners. Maybe I’ll get him one next time.

Well, Amgueddfa Cymru, this building is more than a building, of course, but that building is fragile. So, I think that it is something that many members of the public will welcome, the fact that we’ve been able to have this discussion and this clarity on the floor of the Senedd. I think it has definitely been worth while to have this question today.

Could I press the Minister, please, on two issues? In terms of the clarity of funding beyond the next financial year, particularly given the fact that there is not clarity at the moment in terms of the situation with national insurance contributions, any further information he could give us now would be very useful. And furthermore, because it’s a place that is of such value to so many of us, the culture committee has recommended in the past, after receiving strong evidence on this, that there should be a cross-Government mission to ensure the protection of the national collections. I’m gratified to hear that the national collections were not endangered in this instance, but perhaps we could use this as another opportunity to ensure that, for the future, the responsibility is held across Government in terms of the financing for that, because they are of such value to the nation. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Delyth, for those points. I too am grateful for the opportunity to discuss this important matter on the floor of the Chamber today in the way that we’ve just discussed. The Member pointed to the importance of the institution as well, and I couldn’t agree more.

I’ve already outlined the two particular issues in that question, Presiding Officer. On national insurance, I think the finance Secretary responded to those points in quite some detail yesterday during the budget debate. I don’t have anything further to add to what he said on the floor yesterday afternoon, other than to say, again, that when we do know more, Amgueddfa Cymru and all arm’s-length bodies will know as soon as we do.

On the cross-Government commitment to the estate and estates like Amgueddfa Cymru, the investment shows that commitment in the sector: the £1.3 million for urgent works, which is a Cabinet decision, and the additional moneys in the draft budget, which was a Cabinet decision.

I’m grateful to Delyth Jewell for again highlighting the fact that the collection in the care of National Museum Cardiff on Amgueddfa Cymru’s estate is safe. I just want to repeat that because of the importance of the collection to the people of Wales. I’m grateful for the opportunity to be able to confirm that this afternoon.

I thank the Minister. Before we move on to the final topical question—

—I have received a request for a point of order. Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would just like to clarify, since I’ve been named by both the Minister and Gareth Davies, that, yes, I did receive a request at 10:15 yesterday morning. The technical briefing was at midday, I was chairing the cross-party group on the arts and health—a cross-party group that you’d both be very welcome to attend in the future, it’s very relevant to your portfolios—and I did attend a technical briefing prior to this. I would have still submitted a topical question because I think it is pertinent. I was also advised that that technical briefing was confidential, which is why I did not reference it at the beginning of my contribution. I am grateful for that technical briefing, but I would appreciate, given the seriousness of the situation, that we could omit from petty political point-scoring on an issue that’s so integral. I would just like to clarify that for the record, that I take my role extremely seriously as spokesperson for culture.

Diolch, and it is now on the record.

The final topical question will be asked by Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Peredur. I have met the chairs of both fire and rescue authorities and both chief fire officers. I have set out my expectation that clear and decisive action should be taken immediately to dismantle these damaging cultures and ensure staff feel safe and valued in their workplace.

Thank you for that response.

The reports published earlier into North Wales Fire and Rescue Service and Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service are damning. As you have acknowledged in your statement, the reports found evidence of bullying, harassment, misogyny, discrimination, inappropriate management styles and promotion based on favouritism. It is absolutely shocking that 10 per cent of women in the mid and west Wales service have reported experiencing sexual harassment. In the north Wales fire service, 42 per cent of survey respondents reported personal experiences of bullying or harassment since June 2021. The corresponding figure for mid and west was even higher, at 47 per cent. This working environment, described by the Fire Brigades Union as one of fear and mistrust, is a poor reward for brave men and women who put their lives on the line for public safety.

I want to know what exactly the Welsh Government has been doing whilst these cultures developed within the fire brigades. For example, north Wales fire brigade published their objectives in their strategic equality action plan for 2020-24, where they said they will progress an inclusive culture where leaders and staff demonstrate their commitment to promoting equality and support for a fair and inclusive workforce. Clearly, that didn't happen. It appears that successive Labour Ministers with a responsibility for the fire service in Wales have not been successful in holding fire brigades to account and checking against the delivery of such objectives. If the Government had been successful, then a safer and happier working environment would have been developed for the dedicated men and women working in the fire brigades. Can you account for the lack of monitoring over the years and what are you doing to ensure that the same mistakes are not made under your watch?

Diolch, Peredur. Firstly, I'd just like to put again on record my thanks to those people who came forward, those brave people who came forward and have spoken. It's very much appreciated and I think it's really important that we recognise those people who've come forward. As Peredur says, and as I said in the opening remarks and the statement that I've put out, we want all fire service staff to feel safe in their place of work. There is no place for toxic cultures in fire and rescue services in Wales or any other workplace.

I've spoken with the chairs of the FRAs and both CFOs to discuss how they plan to address the reports and findings. During those meetings, I've set out my very clear expectation about decisive action, and that this must be a priority to effect that cultural change. We'll continue to reflect on the findings and recommendations to determine how to take forward the necessary improvements that need to be made, in discussion with the leaders of those two services. Both CFOs have acknowledged and accepted the issues raised within their reports and have apologised to their staff.

We are developing plans to reform FRS governance using current legislation before the end of this Senedd term, and we're also planning to use primary legislation to make more substantive changes to FRS governance. I've already been in early discussions with key stakeholders through the fire and rescue social partnership forum, and I'll continue to work in social partnership on these matters.

While there are some glimmers of hope—for example, the female chief officer of the north Wales fire and rescue service has had an impact on the numbers of females in operational roles there, and both senior managers and union leaders in north Wales noted that the social partnership duty arising from the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 has had a positive impact—it's going to take more than just urging the current leadership to do better. We now have three reviews all highlighting very similar problems that are not unique to Wales; they are also present in many, if not most, of the fire and rescue authorities in England as well.

It's good to know that you are planning changes within the current regulations, as well as primary legislation, but I feel that we really do need radical reform in line with our recommendations 5 and 6. I note that, in response to recommendation 6 that we wanted a White Paper that could then enable us to look at the shape of that radical reform in order to reflect it in party manifestos in advance of 2026, the Minister at the time was talking about a statement. I think it needs more than that, and I just wondered if, either now or at some future time, in the near future, you could provide a lot more information about exactly the timetable that we're looking at.

Diolch, Jenny. I'd just like to say thanks to you once again, as Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, and all of the members of the Equality and Social Justice Committee that have looked into this over a number of years. I put on record once again my thanks to the committee for that.

You highlighted in your opening question some of the work that has already gone on. You touched on the north Wales fire service and, as you mentioned, the CFO, in response to this report, has confirmed that she and her senior leadership team will be meticulously reviewing the report and turning recommendations into measurable actions, which includes setting up a confidential hotline and bringing in an external leadership development specialist.

Again, as you mentioned, sadly, this is not something that is unique to one fire service or to Wales. I think this has helped to shine a light on some of those issues that, unfortunately, transpire in services in other parts of the country. But it certainly has shone a light onto that.

On your point around the work that we do now, as I said, work is going on around the governance reform and what we need to see. That has very much been started at the social partnership forum, and we will be doing this in social partnership. I'm very happy, as soon as I'm able to, to make sure that the Senedd is kept up to date with the plans and the timetable for that proposed reform.

The reports we've seen today are truly shocking. They're devastating and completely unacceptable, but they're really not surprising. There is an issue of accountability here also, because staff who do such difficult and dangerous roles to keep us safe have suffered terribly. The Equality and Social Justice Committee report into the need to reform governance of the fire and rescue services—instigated, of course, by the Fenella Morris report, and the shocking findings on the culture of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service—really demonstrated that the basic issue here is the inaction of the Welsh Government, over many years, to reform the governance of the Welsh fire and rescue services. What we see in these culture reviews are the consequences of that failure to deliver reform. The failure to get to grips with this matter earlier has really had this damaging effect on staff, yes, and also on public confidence.

It's appalling, really, that it took the efforts of ITV Wales news journalists to gather testimony from whistleblowers, and pressure from the FBU and Plaid Cymru and others, to get the Government to take the steps it finally took. We need to ensure better and more effective governance, separating the executive role from the scrutiny role of the authorities. This has been apparent for decades. Do you endorse that approach in these discussions that you're beginning to have? You failed to deliver on your former White Paper in 2018, and now we've got these truly shameful consequences. So, no more excuses. You say the work of reform is finally under way. So, how radical will it be, and how will management in these two fire services be held to account?

Diolch, Sioned. I know, as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, that this is something—again, with the Chair—that you've followed for a number of years, as other Members have here as well. It is absolutely unacceptable what those reports have found. As I said, we want all fire service staff to feel safe in the place of work; that's what we should expect. There is absolutely no place for that toxic culture in any fire and rescue service in Wales or, as I said, any other workplace.

I've had those discussions, and I've made very clear that I want to see and be aware of absolute action. We've had these reports, the reports have been published today. They're their reports that have been published, and we need to see action now, so I'll be following very closely the work that they're doing. And as I say, I've spoken to them and they've apologised, and they're very clear that they have action points to come out of this as well. But as you say, that's the short-term part. We also have this governance reform that we're very clear—. The key point is we have to get this absolutely right. Obviously, the committee's report feeds into that, but also that social partnership and the discussion that we're having at those meetings. This is very much at the forefront of my mind, what we can do in this Senedd term, as I say, and what potentially could happen in the future. But we do have to get this right, and I think that these reports, very sadly, are, to say the least, deeply depressing and worrying to see. But it is about getting this absolutely right, and sadly, this is not just a reflection on Wales, but this is something that we've seen and we're aware of that is happening across the UK and not just, sadly, in one place.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 today is the 90-second statements. The first statement will be by Hannah Blythyn.

February marks LGBT+ History Month, an opportunity to reflect on how far we've come on LGBTQ+ rights and to celebrate the lives of LGBTQ+ people who, for too long and too often, have been hidden from our history. The theme for 2025 is activism and social change, a fitting focus to shine a spotlight on the activists that have been central to changing lives and legislation. They may not always have made the headlines, but will nearly always have been lifelines. In line with this year's theme, I look forward to hosting an event in the Senedd next week with Unite Wales, to both remember and to recognise the role activists have played in achieving social change, because not knowing our history risks our future. We cannot be complacent, as progress isn't inevitable.

The alarm is sounding around the world that history risks being repeated, and rights rolled back. But at the same time, it is right that this month we highlight the progress we have made, because much of that progress is part of our all-too-recent history. In my lifetime alone, we could be fired, we couldn't be mentioned in classrooms, we could be refused service and we could not marry the person we loved. So, this LGBT+ History Month, we pay tribute to the activists and the allies, the trailblazers and the history makers. Thank you for your activism. Thank you for being a part of changing and making history.

I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight that this week, 3 February to 9 February, is Children's Mental Health Week, and the theme this year is 'know yourself, grow yourself', which aims to equip and empower children and young people across Wales and the United Kingdom to embrace self-awareness and explore what it means for them. It's important now, more than ever, in this rapidly changing world, that young people get to know who they are, which can help them build resilience, grow and develop.

Sadly, new data released by the NSPCC shows that anxiety is the top mental health concern for children in Wales, and as a nation who has enshrined in law the health and well-being of future generations, we need to do everything that we can to remind children and young people that they are not alone.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to say a huge 'thank you' to all those who work tirelessly in the mental health profession and in organisations such as the NSPCC, Place2Be, Childline and the Salvation Army for providing their ongoing and vital support to those who need it most. Thank you.

Thank you.

Item 6 is the debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, the 'Nineteenth report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Andrew R.T. Davies MS regarding failure to declare a relevant interest when asking an oral question in Plenary. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment that although we consider that the Member has failed to comply with Standing Order 13.8A, we do not consider that any further action is warranted. The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reason for its recommendation are set out in full in the committee's report.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind Members of the importance of declaring relevant interests before speaking, whether that is in Plenary or committee proceedings. Advice on declarations is readily available from the Table Office, and if in doubt, it is incumbent on Members to seek such advice before making contributions. In particular, Members should consider whether their interest is something that could be reasonably considered by anyone watching to be relevant, rather than assuming that people outside the Senedd are aware of their interest. This approach will help ensure continued transparency around Members' contributions.

I would also like to draw Members’s attention to the committee's ongoing work on the registration and declaration of interest. Part of this work will involve improving the details of the guidance available around the declaration of interest, and Members are encouraged to come to us with any further suggestions. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendations. Diolch.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I know, by convention, Members don't generally tend to speak on these reports, but I'm quite appalled that the Conservative benches are entirely empty this afternoon. The standards process in this place assumes a degree of shame when censured by the standards of conduct Member of our peers, that it'll be something that Members will reflect on and it'll make them think twice about their conduct in the future. We now have Andrew R.T. Davies being subject to a series of reports by the standards committee. Each time he does not attend the Chamber to take the judgment of his peers. Today all of his colleagues have joined him in boycotting this debate, and I think it does call into question the efficacy of the standards of conduct process in this Chamber if the shaming and the process of reflection is being so wilfully ignored and mocked by the opposition party in this Senedd.

I call on Hannah Blythyn to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would remind Members that the committee is undertaking a package of reform at the moment where we will be considering changes to the standards of conduct and also the measures that underpin it as well, and we'll take on board any comments made in this place. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with—

Objection.

You wish to object?

I do.

I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 7 today is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill on support for unpaid carers. I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Why do we need to legislate to ensure better recognition of and support for unpaid carers? Well, the answer is simple, truth be told, because there are over 310,000 unpaid carers in Wales, and they do not receive the recognition and support that they need and that they deserve. And that recognition and support are crucial, because not to mention the immeasurable human value of the care that is provided, research shows that unpaid carers save the Welsh Government more than £10 billion every year. It would leave a financial black hole that would be very difficult to fill and would place additional pressure, of course, on public services that already do not have adequate funding to provide what is needed for our citizens.

Yes, there is support available to unpaid carers from the Welsh Government, local authorities and healthcare settings, and this, as my motion notes, is based on rights that have been outlined in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. But as I have mentioned more than once in this place, such as in a debate I put forward in the Senedd on the need to improve support for carers at the end of 2023, and as research noted in a number of reports by Carers Wales recently, and also in the ombudsman's findings in his report, 'Are we caring for our Carers?' last year, there can be no denying that there have been significant failings in terms of support for unpaid carers across Wales over a number of years, despite these rights being in place. Because although every carer in Wales has a legal right to a carer's needs assessment, Carers Wales's 'Track the Act' report showed that only between 0.3 per cent and 8 per cent of carers who need an assessment receive one.

The ombudsman’s report showed that only 2.8 per cent of carers living in the authorities surveyed by the ombudsman had their needs assessed, and only 1.5 per cent of carers were in receipt of a support package. These deficiencies are a familiar refrain, unfortunately. As far back as 2019, the Senedd’s Health, Social Care and Sport Committee's report on carers rights under the 2014 Act noted, and I quote:

'Given the lack of impact of the legislation to date and the scale of the future challenge, we believe that the Welsh Government needs to demonstrate stronger national leadership in support for carers.'

The committee recommended that the Welsh Government should prepare a clear action plan to tackle the failure to act highlighted in the inquiry. Unfortunately, the findings of the independent evaluation of the Act, commissioned by the Welsh Government, which were published in March 2023, as well as the ombudsman's inquiry and Carers Wales's 'Track the Act' report, demonstrate that the Welsh Government hasn't taken the necessary steps in the five years and more since the 2019 inquiry.

We cannot continue to fail to support unpaid carers like this. We must do more to bridge the gap—the clear gap—between the Act's rhetoric and the reality on the ground. So, that's the 'why'. I now want to talk about the 'how'.

The 2014 Act gave unpaid carers rights, to be administered by local authorities, encompassing access to information, advice, support, an assessment of needs and for these needs to be met through a package of support. Bearing in mind the pressures on our local authorities, the Welsh Government must show greater leadership by monitoring and assuring quality, to ensure that the rights given to carers in Welsh law are consistently provided. And legislation could guarantee this, as well as outline the crucial steps that are needed to achieve the aim.

A fundamental weakness highlighted in Carers Wales's 'Track the Act' report is the lack of information and understanding of the situation facing unpaid carers within local authorities, and the variation across Wales. The type of information gathered by local authorities about how they fulfilled their statutory requirements raised major questions about the consistency of these data—something, of course, that has led to delays and inadequate support.

The same inconsistencies between local authorities were highlighted in the ombudsman's report, which called for better, more consistent and comparable data to be gathered to enable improved analysis and to drive improvement. Imposing a statutory duty to gather and monitor data in a consistent manner would be a way of guiding local authorities to ensure that carers' rights are being consistently met and statutory commitments effectively discharged in all parts of Wales, putting an end to the current postcode lottery.

Standardising terminology and processes would also make the system easier, then, for unpaid carers to navigate, as caring responsibilities can cross county boundaries, and legislation that sets and enforces national expectations to ensure that the rights that every unpaid carer has are met in a consistent manner would encourage the sharing of data within regions. This would not come at a great cost either, but there is a need for a more robust framework and better leadership from the Welsh Government.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate. I agree entirely that the time has come to legislate in order to provide recognition and support for unpaid carers. Although support and some specific rights are available, the evidence is clear that a large majority of carers are unaware of this, and there is a risk that an increasing cohort of our population will be forgotten. There are great risks to that—social, well-being and health risks. A lack of data is also an issue, as is the lack of awareness of the enormous, crucial and valuable contribution made by informal carers to contemporary society.

Caring for others is an integral part of a civilized society, and is a natural reaction for parents, children, families, friends. Caring is a natural part of our lives, but the circumstances of that care can change, meaning that we need support. The support can come from employed domiciliary care workers the length and breadth of the country—carers who are so valuable but yet don’t get the status, the salary or the respect that they deserve and need. And I would like to pay tribute to them all. We, as a family, are extremely grateful for the support that my mother has been receiving for some weeks now from a team of domiciliary carers at a local level. These are professionals, and their people skills are invaluable, never mind the practical support that they provide.

Under the social services and well-being Act, an unpaid carer’s needs assessment is a legal right for all carers who look after someone who is disabled, ill, who has a mental health condition, or who is elderly. For around two years, I've been sharing my elderly mother’s care, but I wasn’t aware of the carer’s needs assessment until very recently.

As I mentioned, around a month ago, professional carers from the local authority started visiting my mother, and it was only in researching how best to meet my mother’s needs that I came across this right to a carer’s needs assessment. Clearly, therefore, we need to promote this far more, because the assessment can open the door to important sources of support for informal carers. After all, caring for the family carers is crucial in maintaining the care of the individual who requires care. But, as we’ve heard, only around 10 per cent—or perhaps even fewer now—of unpaid carers have had an assessment, and even fewer have a support package.

So, I’m entirely supportive of the intention put forward in this motion, and I strongly believe that it could lead to the change that we need. It could also promote collaboration between formal and informal carers, and I think that that too is crucially important and is something that's often forgotten. So, thank you.

I'm very pleased to be able to contribute to this debate today, and I’m pleased that Sioned Williams has brought this forward. Because, although the Welsh Government has, already, a duty to unpaid carers under the social services and well-being Act, I think this proposal is important, because it gives us the opportunity to highlight the incredible contribution that unpaid carers make and the need for us to give them as much support as possible. I've met many groups of unpaid carers, both individually and in groups. I've also had personal experience of caring, very similar to the experience that Siân Gwenllian has described, and I thought that she made some very important points in that contribution.

So, I do support the spirit of this legislation, but I do feel that we have made progress in terms of recognising unpaid carers, and that the Government has taken steps that have improved the situation of unpaid carers. I’m sure that the Minister, in her contribution, will be able to highlight what those steps are. But I particularly feel that the development of the short breaks scheme, which is administered by the Carers Trust, which celebrated its fiftieth anniversary here yesterday in the Senedd, is on track to deliver 30,000 additional short break opportunities by the end of March this year, and I think that that's what carers have told us all along, that they want breaks. And so the short breaks scheme I think has been a great step forward, as well as the carers support fund, which I think has been an absolute lifeline, we are told, to carers to access money in a time of financial crisis. And I remember somebody telling me that they'd taken a grant from the carers support fund and they were using it to pay for Christmas dinner, because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to have any Christmas dinner. And I'm very pleased that the Minister is extending that money for those particular projects.

I'm also very supportive of the Young Carers Festival, which takes place every year. I think that this is so important, because it recognises the huge job that young carers—young unpaid carers—do. Hundreds of young carers from across Wales gather together in Builth Wells, where they have three days of fun and also are able to share their experiences. And it does give a real opportunity to show the appreciation of what they do and recognition. So, I think that bringing forward this proposal does highlight the importance and the needs of carers.

And there is a lot that we are doing in Wales, but I absolutely agree that we need to do more. Sioned and Siân Gwenllian have highlighted the needs that are there. One point that I particularly wanted to make was about the introduction of the young carers ID card. This was introduced with Government money in order to enable young carers to have an ID card that enabled them to not have to continuously tell their story—everywhere they go, they have to explain the difficulties they have, who they have to look after, why they're late to school sometimes, why they have to pick up the medication—

You need to conclude now, please, Julie.

—and an ID card is absolutely great for that. But, of course, it's important that the local authorities issue those ID cards, and we've heard that there are many young carers who cannot get ID cards. So, I support this legislation and I'm glad to have the opportunity to say a few words about it.

If there is one cohort of people in society that is ignored, undervalued and disregarded, it is unpaid carers. As a Christian, I always think of the ways that the world can better show love and compassion to fellow humans, and how to share that Christian message in practice, and nothing demonstrates the power of love more than the work that unpaid carers do every day. That is what love is. Not working for financial gain, nor for personal advantage or working out of any personal interest, but working out of love, often at their own expense—at the expense of their career, their health, their education, their well-being, and much more suffering because they love another person or persons so much that they give up many if not all of these things for the benefit of their loved ones.

Now, the one thing that is vital in terms of carers is the ability to access respite. The history of the successes of trade unions is clear to all, from delivering two salaried days off a week, restrictions on working hours, minimum pay and much more—all important steps, but totally irrelevant to this voluntary workforce caring for their loved ones. Their working week is not made up of five working days, seven hours a day, with 25 days of leave every year; those aren’t their terms and conditions. There are no rules to say that young people aged 16 cannot work more than eight hours a week for carers. But, again, there are over 20,000 young carers in Wales working diligently for their loved ones, without the support that they need, on top of their other duties and their education—children and young people sacrificing their childhoods and having to grow up far too soon. Where is their respite? There is no union for them. Thank goodness for organisations such as the Carers Trust Wales for their advocacy on their behalf.

I understand that there is a duty to provide respite to those carers who have received an assessment, but very few carers have been able to access such an assessment. As we’ve already heard, the numbers are very, very small, up to 8 per cent only. So, without an assessment, there is no duty to ensure that they receive respite, and, without respite, carers suffer burnout, they are exhausted and they become ill themselves; their own mental health and that of their loved ones suffers, and greater pressure is shouldered by social services and the health service. And, as a result of that, everyone suffers. The current system is not sustainable.

I referred to the fact that there is an estimate of how many carers receive an assessment. And this leads me to my final point, namely the total failure of this Government, across every policy area, truth be told, to gather clear data. How can resources be allocated and policies developed effectively without accurate data as a foundation for action? Sioned’s motion gets to these very foundations. Respecting our unpaid carers means responding to their needs, and the only way of doing this is by gathering the data and the core information to know what is happening on the ground. It is staggering that we are having to ask for legislation to enforce these basic steps, but that's where we are in Wales at present.

I call on the Minister for Children and Social Care, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Sioned Williams for tabling this motion, and Members who contributed to this very important debate this afternoon? Firstly, I want to go on record to thank all unpaid carers for the huge contributions and sacrifices that we know that they make in caring for their family members and friends, the very point that others in the debate have made today, and I also want to say how much I've appreciated the opportunities that I've had to meet and talk to many unpaid carers about their circumstances and support needs, and I very much welcome the opportunity today to set out our support for unpaid carers and how that is continuing and developing.

The motion today calls for a Bill to ensure recognition and support for unpaid carers and improved service provision. Now, this Government takes very seriously its responsibilities, and I'll outline the work that is already in progress. The social services and well-being Act has rightly been referenced by many contributors to the debate this afternoon, so it's important to say that the Act does already impose duties on local authorities and health boards to promote the well-being of carers. Local authorities have duties to provide information and advice, to undertake assessments of support needs, and to meet those support needs.

Will you take an intervention? I accept that point, and they are expected to provide an assessment, but, as we've heard, only a small fraction get an assessment, so 90-plus per cent don't get that assessment and, therefore, they can't get the things that they are owed. So, how can you make sure that the rest of the carers get that assessment?

Right. I'm only a minute into my contribution, Mabon; I think it will become clear as we go through.

Looking forward to it.

So, as I say, this does include the provision of respite for the carer to have a break from their caring responsibilities. The Act is clear on local authorities' duties, so our work must focus on ensuring that this is consistently embedded and delivered, as was highlighted by many others. Unpaid carers that I've spoken to as well have also told me about how they feel that they can't access timely information or advice and that they've not been able to easily receive an assessment of their support needs, and that should be of great concern to all of us.

The rapid review of carers' rights, which we as a Government commissioned in 2022, identified these as areas for improvement, and we are currently working with local authority leaders, with health boards, with national care organisations and unpaid carers through my ministerial advisory group to drive consistent national best practice. We've requested now that all local authorities complete self-assessments of their services to carers, and—to be clear—we have not just asked leaders to complete these assessments, but we have asked front-line workers, so that we can hear first-hand about both the challenges and the good practice within their areas.

We've met with unpaid carers to understand more about their experiences, and to learn from them what 'good' looks like to them. And we're meeting with the heads of adult services this month to agree the next steps in moving forward on improvements that need to be made, but also using this as an opportunity to share the good practice that I talked about earlier. The motion also calls for the data capture of unpaid carers across statutory services and a greater sharing of unpaid carers data between statutory services.

I can advise the Senedd that, again, through the ministerial advisory group for unpaid carers, we have commissioned a new unpaid carers receiving support census, and this census will provide a detailed understanding of carers who receive support from local authorities. And—

Will you take an intervention?

Okay.

Just on that point there: so does that work to promote best practice and improvement come with additional capacity and resource to allow local authorities to invest in providing, for instance, more information, advice and assistance plus assessments?

I think we need to see what the review actually comes out and tells us, but this is a whole budget discussion that we're talking about now, and I don't think that we want to get into budget discussions right at the moment. We're setting out the principles of what we're trying to achieve, and we've seen that local authorities' budgets have been increased significantly in this budget. If you vote for it, that might well be able to help support some of the work that we're looking to do here.

Now, we're also working with health to develop a shared care record and a national data repository, and that will help to provide a single record for people across both health and social care.

The motion further calls for recognition of unpaid carers as a priority group in the design and delivery of policy intentions. I can tell you that we are already working across Government to ensure that unpaid carers are actively considered in a range of strategies and policies, including our new mental health strategy, the child poverty strategy, the suicide prevention strategy, and our strategy for an ageing society. Unpaid carers are a priority area also for the gender equality forum and for the Welsh Government's response to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child's concluding observations 2023 report. We continue to develop our delivery plan for 2025-26, which sits under our national strategy for carers, and this is being co-produced with national care organisations, unpaid carers, local authorities and health boards. Co-production is, of course, a key principle of the social services and well-being Act, and we expect local authorities to ensure the active involvement of unpaid carers when they're developing or commissioning services that affect them.

As was highlighted by Julie Morgan in her contribution, our short breaks scheme and carers support fund were developed in direct response to what carers said they needed in partnership with local authorities and with the third sector. Feedback from unpaid carers has been very positive. We've increased the opportunities for a break from people's caring roles, and we're helping them to access emergency financial support and assistance, directly benefiting their well-being. I was pleased to announce, just last week, that we have further extended that fund by £5.2 million. As Julie also highlighted in her contribution, the scheme that we have to support our young carers through the ID cards is also quite groundbreaking.

Llywydd, once again, I am grateful to Sioned Williams for tabling the motion, giving the Senedd the opportunity of shining a light on the need to support unpaid carers, but I do not see an immediate need for further legislation at this time. Rather, we should direct our energies to ensuring that the current legislation that we have is effectively enabled, and I believe that that's what I've set out today. So, rest assured that this Government will continue to recognise the vital contribution of unpaid carers and deliver on our strategic priorities in collaboration with unpaid carers and our social care partners. Diolch yn fawr.

And I call on Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Before I start, I'd just like to say 'hello' and give a shout-out to the unpaid carers who I know are watching us on Senedd.tv today. Of course, they couldn't be here because of their caring duties.

I want to thank everyone who's contributed to the debate, particularly Siân Gwenllian, who's shared her own experience of caring for her mother, and we've had a lot of conversations about that, and I think that that lived experience is very valuable indeed in contributing to this debate.

A few points I'd like to respond to, I know I don't have too much time. Just on the point that Julie Morgan and the Minister raised around the extension of the sustainable social service grant, the short breaks fund and the carers support fund, they're welcome, of course, but they're yet to be transformative in their impact, and they don't go far enough to address the deep injustices faced by unpaid carers in Wales. They've been running for a number of years, and yet we know from the Carers Wales report last year that there are 100,000 unpaid carers living in poverty. We know that, by this year, around 30,000 short breaks will have been provided to carers, and yet the 2021 census shows us there are over 300,000 unpaid carers in Wales. So, what about that other 90 per cent of carers who would benefit from a break from their role?

Of course, the Government, yes, can produce as many charters, delivery plans and strategies as it chooses, and they can be accompanied by warm words in the Senedd and statements during Carers Week and visits to carers centres, but it needs to get a grip of its own legislation, and specifically its effective implementation, otherwise we're going to be coming back here every year, hearing more about unpaid carers who are struggling to make ends meet, who are waiting months or years for their needs to be assessed, and who have given up their jobs because no support was made available to them. So, if the Government doesn't think we need new legislation to fix this mess, then it needs to show leadership and commitment, more than it plans to currently, which includes sufficient resource, to start to make inroads into the injustice faced by hundreds of thousands of people who just want a bit of support to provide some care to the people they love and to live a fulfilling life alongside that.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? No—

Yes? [Objection.]

Yes. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 8 is a debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report, 'Social Housing Supply'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to open today’s debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee’s report on social housing supply. I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, particularly those who shared their personal experiences with us through our engagement activities. Our report on social housing is part of a series of inquiries relating to our overarching priority of the delivery and availability of appropriate housing in Wales. Our report made 17 recommendations, and I’m pleased that 14 of those were accepted either in full or in principle by the Cabinet Secretary.

We are in the midst of a housing crisis and, increasingly, the supply of social housing at pace is key to addressing this. The latest statistics show that, as of March 2024, the Welsh Government was less than halfway towards its target of delivering 20,000 low-carbon social homes for rent by the end of this Senedd. We recognise that increasing social housing supply has been particularly challenging in recent years due to headwinds, including the rising cost of materials and labour, but there are opportunities to do more. In our report, we call on the Welsh Government to produce a long-term housing strategy that looks beyond individual Senedd terms, and many of the recommendations in our report discuss what such a strategy should include.

We heard that social housing needs to comprise a critical mass of at least 20 per cent of a nation’s housing stock to create options for people and balance out prices in the private market. The percentage of social housing varies across Europe, with the highest proportions in the Netherlands, 29 per cent; Denmark, 20 per cent; and Austria, 24 per cent. In Scotland, the figure is 23 per cent. Here in Wales on the other hand, social housing currently makes up only about 16 per cent of stock. If we met the 20 per cent figure, we would have in the region of 60,000 more homes, which would make a significant difference to people’s lives. The Welsh Government accepted in principle our recommendation that social housing should form a bigger percentage of Wales’s overall housing stock. We note the Welsh Government’s commitment to undertake analysis to understand the steps needed to secure a higher percentage and to inform timescales. I would be grateful today if the Cabinet Secretary could give us a time frame for this work.

We are pleased that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendation about addressing the need for more one-bed homes. We heard that there is significant demand for such accommodation, but local authorities and housing associations said that this may conflict with establishing mixed communities. It is therefore vital that the Welsh Government delivers the right homes in the right places, and social homes need to reflect the needs of the population.

The Welsh Government should be exploring every opportunity to increase social housing supply. From the evidence received during our inquiry, we believe there is potential to capture more land value to invest in social housing. The Welsh Government currently has no formal mechanisms to capture land value uplift beyond section 106, and we are concerned that this is a missed opportunity. We therefore recommended that the Welsh Government should explore how it can capture more land value for public benefit, and as part of this, it should redouble efforts to seek devolution of powers to introduce a vacant land tax. We also recommended that the Welsh Government works with local authorities on unlocking the potential of smaller sites within existing communities, and call for more transparency around land ownership. We are pleased that these recommendations were accepted by the Welsh Government, either in full or in principle.

Community-led housing is another important element of the 20,000 social homes target. As a committee, we recognise the benefits this approach can bring, including its potential to meet specific housing needs as well as wider benefits. However, in our inquiry into community assets, we heard that difficulty accessing funding was a barrier to the development of this sector. The Welsh Government previously rejected our recommendation that a specific Welsh fund for community housing projects be established, so we are pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to look afresh at this proposal, given that a lack of appropriately priced and structured finance remains one of the most significant barriers to the development of community-led housing. We are also pleased that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendation to consider funding community housing enablers across all local authorities. Early and effective engagement is integral to identifying needs and opportunities for social housing development, as well as ensuring community buy-in.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I will now turn to the recommendations that were rejected by the Welsh Government. We recommended the creation of an arm’s-length development corporation to lead on the delivery of large-scale sites. There are examples of such bodies in other nations across the world, and indeed in Wales's own recent past. The Welsh Government rejected this recommendation, saying that the place division can deliver the same outcomes at lower cost. Given our concerns around the 20,000 target, we believe the Welsh Government should be taking more responsibility for large-scale residential development, in collaboration with local authorities and housing associations. I would therefore be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could reassure the committee that the place division has what it needs to do this.

Would you accept an intervention?

I will, certainly, Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you. You've just mentioned a shortage of electricians and plumbers, and previously you've mentioned that, very often, they do the first two years but then struggle to find a placement, because of health and safety or whatever, with builders and plumbers et cetera. So, perhaps it's something we could take up with the Minister for skills as well. That could be useful going forward.

Yes, absolutely. I have, in fact, discussed it with Ministers and raised it, as you know, Carolyn, here in the Chamber. I think it will be looked at. Certainly, I visited my local college and heard very strongly that, very often, learners do the two years, as you say, and then cannot secure an apprenticeship and drop out of the industry altogether, which is a real shame, isn't it? So, I hope that can be effectively addressed.

Thank you very much to everyone, as I said, who's played a part in the report. I now look forward to Members' contributions.

Firstly, our thanks from the Welsh Conservatives go to the fantastic Chair, John Griffiths, and everyone on the committee who took part in producing this report before my time starting on the committee. Thank you to everybody, including my own Member.

There is, as the Chair has just outlined, a social housing crisis here in Wales at the moment, and yet the Welsh Government has all but given up on building houses. Despite the Welsh Government setting an initial target of building 20,000 new homes for social rent by 2026, they've decided to ditch the idea of building social houses, focusing on delivering houses instead.

Even after this, they have utterly failed to meet the delivery targets for social housing, delivering under 9,000 homes, which is less than half their target, as was outlined by the Chair. Of those homes, the Bevan Foundation has estimated that around 7,400 of these were actually to be let at social rent, another poor record from the Labour Government.

Experts say that the social housing stock should be 20 per cent of the housing market, yet in Wales only 16 per cent of housing stock is social housing. This is far below other parts of the UK like Scotland, whose social housing is 23 per cent. As a result, 140,000 people are waiting and desperate to have a roof over their heads in Wales. According to Audit Wales, the Welsh Government would need an extra £740 million to meet their social housing target, yet the draft budget has allocated a measly £81 million extra.

And how does this Government plan to build the houses when they have massive skills and job shortages in construction, as has been said? Alarmingly, Wales is currently losing 300 construction workers per year and 12,000 builders are needed by 2028 to meet the current demand in the construction industry. Yet the Welsh Government rejected recommendation 10—

Would you take an intervention?

Of course, yes.

Thank you. You said that the Welsh Government have all but given up with building new social houses, but I've just been informed that there will be 52 more social houses being built across north Wales in three authorities this year alone, which is fantastic, and I'm invited to many such developments across north Wales of new, warm social housing. So, I don't think that's quite right, is it, Laura? We are still building.

I'm delighted to hear that, if that is the case up in north Wales, but the picture for the whole of Wales is quite alarming, and I'm sure you would agree with that as a Member who represents not just north Wales but sitting here for the whole of Wales.

As I was saying about the construction workers per year, 12,000 builders are needed by 2028 to meet the current demand in the construction industry, yet the Welsh Government rejected recommendation 10, as I said, for the Cabinet Secretary for housing to work with the Minister for culture and skills to attract more people into the industry, which I think is a crying shame, particularly since your past role, Cabinet Secretary. So, I'd be delighted to hear what your thoughts are on that.

Last year, the Welsh Government cut funding to apprenticeships by 14 per cent, and although they restored that funding in this draft budget, the damage has already been done. In order to recoup the hundreds of construction workers leaving the industry and get Wales building, the Welsh Government must support construction firms and invest in the training of the next generation of builders. The Welsh Conservatives would develop a support scheme to enable small and medium enterprises to build homes and provide appropriate apprenticeship funding, creating bright careers and the skills that Wales actually needs.

It was also disappointing to see that the Welsh Government rejected recommendation 9 of this report, putting unrealistic standards ahead of providing houses for the homeless. The WLGA stated that the current housing quality standards create a potential trade-off between the quality and the quantity of social housing. Another contributor to the report also stated that social housing landlords will have to divert capital away from developments to meet the standards, ultimately resulting in fewer social homes being delivered due to the increased costs. Thirteen thousand homeless people in Wales are living in a revolving door of temporary accommodation, moving from B&B to B&B. If developing a separate standard for social housing, in collaboration with TPAS Cymru, would allow us to house families and children, then this should be a priority.

Not only that, but the current system is not making the most of what landlords have to offer. Last year, the current acquisitions programme for social housing was oversubscribed by twice its capacity, and properties already compliant with standards. This represented a £200 million investment opportunity for the Welsh Government, an opportunity to provide a starting point for those without a home, yet delays in Labour's planning system are pushing landlords away from providing social housing rather than attracting them to it.

I want to focus on two important recommendations contained within the report but rejected by the Government, unfortunately. One is on the establishment of Unnos as an arm's-length body from Government in order to hasten the construction of social housing in Wales, and the second relates to flexibility with standards in adapting current homes into homes for the social housing sector.

I turn first to recommendation 5 in the report, a recommendation that has been rejected by the Welsh Government. But we did receive a great deal of evidence from stakeholders who strongly support the establishment of a national corporation to lead on housing development in a strategic way. The establishment of Unnos as an arm's-length body to accelerate the work of increasing the supply of social housing has been a Plaid Cymru policy for many years, and although I welcome the content of the Unnos programme of the current Government, which came about through the co-operation agreement, we need to develop Unnos as a separate entity with specific powers. It was wonderful to see support from stakeholders and the support of the committee for this too. Specialists including Shelter, the Chartered Institute of Housing, Community Housing Cymru, and others, called for such an independent body to intervene in the land market and the planning system.

Yesterday in the Senedd, I chaired a round-table meeting to discuss the housing crisis in Wales with representatives of the housing sector, and once again, there were clear signs of support for the vision of Unnos that is outlined in the committee's report, and that was wonderful to see. The committee, in its report, does recognise the establishment of the land division within the Welsh Government—or the place division as it's called now, I think—and the work that that does in terms of working with investors and developers to deliver exemplar sites on Government-owned land, but many stakeholders believe that far more could be done if this approach were expanded.

I note that the Government at the moment doesn't see the need for such a body because of the establishment of that particular division, and that is disappointing. To be effective, an arm's-length body would need the right powers, professional expertise and a long-term vision that aligns with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. And although the Government has rejected that recommendation, I am sure that the discussion on Unnos will continue over the coming months.

Secondly, I want to focus on recommendation 9. The committee heard a great deal of evidence about the main challenges facing social landlords and the demand for greater flexibility in quality standards in order to increase the supply of social housing, so it's unfortunate that the Government has rejected the committee's recommendation to work with TPAS Cymru and tenants' associations to develop a separate standard for the acquisition of permanent social housing. TPAS argued that although we must achieve health and safety standards, the priority is to move people out of temporary accommodation and into permanent homes. And with 11,000 people, including 3,000 children, in temporary accommodation, it is very frustrating indeed for many of us that the Government isn't willing to be pragmatic on this particular issue.

I was a member of the committee for this inquiry but didn't take part in the final report as I'd just been appointed by the Minister to chair the affordable homes taskforce. In order to avoid a conflict, I should declare an interest in today's proceedings so that people know about those dual roles.

I thought it would be useful just to update the Senedd on the work that the taskforce is doing, how it relates to the inquiry that the committee took on, and how it's taking forward many of the themes that have been already discussed here this afternoon. It's been asked in its terms of reference to look at two things—short-term barriers to affordable housing, and secondly, to look at any system changes that may be required. We're looking to unblock sites that are already in the Welsh Government's 20,000 programme for low-carbon homes for social rent, those that are at a risk of delay, and to look for what's called 'meanwhile use'—that's temporary housing on public land—and we've also been asked to look at streamlining the delivery of new homes.

It's quite clear from the work already that there is no magic bullet, but there are, I think, a series of interventions that can make a difference. On the group, we have people with experience of local government—a cabinet member and a senior officer from north Wales and south Wales—a representative of a housing association—one from north Wales, one from south Wales—a representative from the design commission and from the Royal Town Planning Institute, and we've supplemented that with academics and others who have attended individual discussions. Yesterday I met with housing developers and tomorrow I'm meeting with registered social landlords. So, it's a rapid piece of work. We're aiming to report by the end of March through April, in two phases, and we're looking at practical solutions; this is not a report to come up with further analyses of the problem, but to look at things that might help.

It's quite clear from the representations we've had that developers feel it's too long. It takes too long to try and build homes and to get proposals through the system, and as there is a housing crisis, there is strong support that applications for social housing need to be given priority by planning authorities. There is good practice in Swansea and in Conwy council where they have development teams, so when an application comes before them, they essentially lock everybody in a room and make them work on that application. So, planning, highways, drainage, biodiversity—all the different departments that need to give the go-ahead work on a project together to be able to overcome obstacles and expedite applications—

Will you take an intervention?

Do you mind if I don't, because I've got a lot to get through, and I just want to make sure I update Senedd Members as much as I can?

We're looking to identify further good practice. The question then is how do we get it consistently adopted—how do we spread and scale it? And I think co-production is the way to do that.

Developers have also told us that planning applications in some counties can be decided by planning officers under delegated powers, but in others it has to go to planning committee, which adds time and uncertainty. I think everybody acknowledges the pressure planning departments are under. After all, since 2010 and the start of austerity, Welsh local councils have lost 40 per cent of their staff, and one of the frustrations developers consistently tell us about is that you can now no longer easily get hold of planning officers to discuss applications face to face, to have those practical conversations to help with resolving issues. That is clearly a problem.

There are also, then, the issues of different interpretations, by landscape officers, for example, in some councils, different to others, duplication of what's called pre-commencement conditions. So, the conditions already covered in planning applications can be then put on again and have to be separately discharged and signed off, potentially further amended by officers, which adds delay and frustration. Some of this can be addressed with training, some can be addressed with a more standardised approach. I think the big question that we need to look at and address is whether or not land identified in a local development plan should come with a presumption for development when the LDP is agreed. This will create greater certainty of land supply and reduce the time and cost of developments. So, once you get permission in principle, should you also get some permitted development rights, as long as it's allied with policy safeguards, to streamline the planning process? There are pros and cons to that, and we're working it through, and we'll come to a collective view on that.

Also, what can be done in the short term to address the unacceptably high number of people in temporary accommodation? In Cardiff, in Llantwit Major, they've used temporary housing on public land to build temporary homes. Can we do more of that? There are mixed views. How can we speed up bringing empty homes back into use? Housing that's considered as 'voids' by social landlords—how can they be brought back into use? Flats above shops in town centres or loft extensions for families facing overcrowding—these are all things that will help address the housing crisis, and those are the issues, Dirprwy Lywydd, we are working through and will report on by the end of April to the Cabinet Secretary. Diolch.

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion. I remember when I was a member of the committee, I was making the case for an inquiry in this area, and I'm very pleased to see that the committee has completed such a thorough and important piece of work, and I'm sorry that I'd left the committee before being able to take part in the inquiry.

I wanted to pick up on one point, if I may, namely the committee's recommendation to increase the public housing stock to 20 per cent. I want to make the case that this is insufficient, and my stance is based on evidence—evidence that I believe that you heard from Housing Europe.

First, if I may shut down any accusation that my only ambition is to see everyone living in social housing—not at all. Consider the basic maths of the sector. If someone buys a house on the open market, then it’s likely they will have to have a mortgage. For a house worth £250,000, a person may have to repay their mortgage over a quarter of a century or more, and at today’s rates, depending on different conditions, they would be paying over £1,300 a month, and will ultimately pay around £400,000 for that property. And remember, the mortgage payments almost entirely, 99.9 per cent, go out of Wales. And there are up to £40 billion-worth of live mortgages in Wales—money that flows out of Wales. That's a lot of money.

In a social home, a person, instead of paying £1,300 in a mortgage that goes out of Wales, would pay £500 a month. That would release £800 every month for that family or individual to spend on other things—hobbies, saving for a deposit on a privately owned home—and all of that money would turn over in the local economy. It makes financial sense, therefore, to have social homes. And that's why people in Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Scandinavian nations and others are renting homes. But more than this, by renting a social home, the money not only stays local, but it is ploughed back into the housing stock and enables more homes to be built.

But anyway, on to my main point: I'm eager to see an ambition for at least 30 per cent of housing stock being held under public ownership. That's the figure, as we heard, in the Netherlands, and the Netherlands are a very similar country to us in several ways. Indeed, this was the figure in Wales back in the 1970s, before Thatcher decided to sell the public housing stock, thus creating the current housing crisis.

I’ve referred several times in previous discussions to Vienna as an example of good practice in this area, and the level of public housing stock there is 60 per cent. And these homes are open to all—be they surgeons, heads of industry, cleaners, bus drivers. But not only this, they’re also homes of the highest quality, environmentally and economically, and they allow access to facilities such as public transport, education, healthcare, leisure opportunities and many more of life’s essentials.

A couple of weeks ago, I was witnessing the opening of 18 carbon-neutral flats delivered on a very small car park at the back of the YMCA hostel at the Walk. They were absolutely lovely, beautiful designed, very light, with each flat heated by air-source heat pumps, so tenants could control the heating to suit their particular needs, with their own front door and a nice communal garden. I think the architect of CFW Architects—Jeff Murray is his name—and the builders who collaborated massively on squeezing the last fine design detail out of what was quite a complex shape—they properly deserve a Royal Institute of British Architects award, frankly. And anybody can go and look at it, because the YMCA has got a cafe that looks out on to this wonderful new building.

These are the first homes built by the YMCA in Cardiff since 1981. I have to say that that must be one of the reasons why we are in such a difficult situation. And their biggest challenge now is how on earth are they going to encourage these new tenants, in their designated temporary accommodation for 18 to 25-year-olds, to move on. Because there's frankly nowhere in Cardiff to move on to.

How can we tax car parking spaces attached to businesses in areas like Cardiff where there are good transport links? We cannot afford to allow these pocket handkerchiefs of land, which could be used for housing people in an urban area like the one I represent, to not be used for housing, given the level of need.

So, the current ambition to build 20,000 homes in this Senedd itself is a drop in the ocean compared to the need, and I appreciate that we are struggling to even achieve that. Cardiff Council has built over 1,600 council houses since 2017 and that is a solid achievement in an area where land is quite expensive, and housing associations have built a further 500 homes, and their ambition is to build a further 4,000 in partnership with other organisations. But the need is overwhelming, and the council has made a huge commitment to keep going with its housing first policy. In order to prevent people living on the street, they've had to convert most of the new social housing that's been built, in my time as the representative, into temporary housing, and of course there are huge consequences to that decision, but I understand why they're doing that, because the cost of temporary housing, in hostels or hotels, which they are also using, is very, very expensive.

So, I absolutely support your proposals for a vacant land tax. We want 'yes' to much bigger council taxes on housing left vacant after six months, 'yes' to the Development Bank of Wales directly funding social housing developments, and a lot more work to be done to convert existing buildings into homes, particularly above shops, as has already been mentioned, and to convert surplus retail that can be converted practically to accommodate residential accommodation in town centres.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the debate today, and I'd like to start by thanking and welcoming the vast amount of work the committee has undertaken in its inquiry into social housing, and the interest that Members, past and present, have taken in this and the debate, including myself and Mabon ap Gwynfor, who have both been past members of the committee. I would like to thank all those committee members, including the Chair, and all those people who have given evidence to the inquiry.

One of the Government's key priorities is opportunity for every family. We know that opportunity starts in the home, and as such, ensuring a healthy supply of social housing is incredibly important, and I welcome the opportunity to outline what we're doing to support this.

Here in the Senedd, I think we all recognise the importance of good-quality housing in Wales. We know that investing in social housing reduces poverty, improves health, and helps drive economic growth. Good-quality affordable housing can also positively impact on mental health and improve educational outcomes, and this is why the Welsh Government has been steadfast in its support for the most affordable housing—social rent.

The evidence that we need more affordable homes is undeniable. There are still too many people living in temporary accommodation, and one person sleeping rough, or one family without a place to call home, is one too many. And that's why our focus as a Government is on delivering more homes alongside prevention support, in the aim of realising our long-term ambition to end homelessness for good.

Our record levels of investment are paying off. Social housing has received over £1.4 billion this Government term and, despite the challenging global events facing the housing sector, the sector continues to rise to the challenge. Delivery remains at some of the highest levels since records began in 2007-08, including the delivery of nearly 9,000 more homes for rent in the social sector so far this Senedd term. Our sector projections still tell us that there is a strong pipeline of schemes to deliver more homes this Government term and into the next, but I am impatient.

I’d like to take the opportunity to thank the sector for their continued commitment. I advised Members back in October that I had written to local authorities and registered social landlords setting out the clear ambition to do everything within our collective power to deliver every additional home we can. Responses helped inform the work of the affordable homes taskforce, and I’d like to thank Lee Waters for his role in this and the chairing of that, as well as the Members here who have been taking part. They have, as Lee has said, been focusing on unlocking barriers and supporting schemes experiencing potential risks to their delivery timescales.

But, despite that, only 4.9 per cent of the draft budget for the next financial year is allocated for housing and regeneration, under 5 per cent of the total expenditure of the Welsh Government. Do you think that that's adequate?

Diolch, Siân. As I said, this is a real focus for us and we're doing everything we can within the funding that we have available. And we know that, from the UK Government, we've been given extra money in this year than we would have otherwise had, and I've tried to outline how we are investing that additional £10 million that we've been able to find this year.

Building homes takes time and all social landlords need the ability to meet the immediate housing need through acquisitions, where appropriate. This is why the additional investment will be used across both the social housing grant and the transitional accommodation capital programme. The funding will support the programme for government’s commitment to delivering 20,000 additional homes for rent in the social sector, as well as homes started in 2025-26 and completed in the next Senedd term.

I'd just like to turn briefly to recommendation 4, which has been mentioned and which I have accepted in principle. I absolutely agree that we should aim for a higher percentage of social housing within the housing stock. However, whilst we're delivering record levels of affordable housing, further increases to the pace and scale of delivery will take time and require a commitment that spans several Government terms. But I am committed to undertaking analysis to understand the steps needed to secure a higher percentage and to inform timescales.

A number of Members have mentioned recommendations, particularly, and perhaps understandably, focusing on the ones that haven't been accepted. As I said, of the 17 recommendations put forward, I've only rejected three. But, despite these rejections, I don't disagree with some of the principles highlighted in the recommendations, because we must really do more in all three of the areas, but the approach suggested by the committee, I believe, may not always be the right approach for this Government. But I do want to reassure committee members that the rejections do not mean that we simply rest on our laurels in these areas, and I'm committed to using every available lever to deliver as many homes as possible for the people of Wales.

While I disagree with the committee’s recommendation on the need for a separate standard for acquisitions, we've already introduced significant flexibilities within our TACP-funded projects. We will continue to review our standards, working with stakeholders to ensure they provide the pragmatism that is needed, and the early announcement of a continuation of the TAC programme will support our partners in continuing the pipeline of quality projects in this space.

It's time to conclude now, Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch. Over the remainder of this Government term, I'll be focusing both my and officials' efforts on delivery. That includes the delivery of homes and delivering against the commitments made in response to the committee's recommendations and Audit Wales. And finally, I'd like to reiterate to Members of the Senedd that I have been and will continue to be using all available levers to drive forward and deliver much-needed homes in Wales. Diolch.

The Chair of the committee to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, I thank Members very much for their contributions to what I think is a very important debate today, Dirprwy Lywydd, and there are some common themes. Laura Anne Jones, for example, mentioned issues with the planning departments of our local authorities, and that was echoed by others, and I think we do know that there is a need to increase that capacity, and that’s one significant part of producing the much greater number of houses that we need, including affordable social homes for rent, and action, I know, is being taken by Welsh Government to look at those issues and to increase capacity, and I think we all hope that that work comes to fruition as quickly as possible.

Siân Gwenllian mentioned the additional homes that we could have, for example, on our high streets and, again, that’s a theme that was mentioned by more than one Member, and of course that would have lots of benefits. It would help regenerate our town and city centres, where we know that extra footfall is very valuable in supporting the retail sector, and of course that would also lend itself to increasing the number of one-bedroomed properties, which again is a significant unmet need that we cover in our report.

I was very grateful to Lee Waters, Dirprwy Lywydd, for providing that very valuable update, I think, for Members on his work for the Cabinet Secretary in looking at where the barriers are, where the pinch-points are, how they might be overcome. That work, as Lee said, has quite an urgent time frame in terms of reporting at the end of March or in April, so I very much look forward, as I’m sure other Members do, to looking at the conclusions and the contribution that can make to necessary progress.

Mabon, I know, takes a great interest in housing and that was very evident when Mabon was a member of the committee and it’s good to see Mabon continuing that interest and taking part in this debate today. Committee, Mabon, would very much agree with you in terms of 20 per cent not being the endpoint in terms of our ambitions for the percentage of our overall housing stock that should be made up of affordable social homes for rent; 30 per cent, I think, is a longer term but achievable strategy. The 20 per cent figure we hope will happen over the next Senedd term, so we’re talking about another five years or so, and if we could build 60,000 additional affordable social homes for rent over that period, that would be a major contribution, I think, to meeting the need that we have.

Jenny, it's always good when, as with Mabon, non-committee members take part in debates on committee reports, so thanks again, very much, for your interest and the example that you gave of the YMCA building, those eight carbon-neutral flats—

Eighteen.

Eighteen, sorry, carbon-neutral flats. I can't read my own handwriting, I'm afraid. Temporary accommodation, but very important, and we know the issue about temporary accommodation and perhaps that leading to permanent housing as we look at some of the standards that apply.

Again, you mentioned properties above shops, and, again, that's very important, and also, of course, the issues with the private rented sector and that rent increase that your constituent faced, because what we do know—. Coming to the Cabinet Secretary's contribution today, I very much welcome the strong commitment that you have, Cabinet Secretary, to engaging with the committee, accepting the big majority of our recommendations, and then also looking at those that were rejected in terms of how we make progress, even if it isn't in the way that the committee suggests. We very much welcome that.

I think there is a shared endeavour, isn't there, across the Senedd and with Welsh Government to see those additional affordable social homes being built here in Wales. What underlies it all, getting back to what Jenny mentioned about that private rented sector example, is that these affordable social homes for rent can give us many more of the safe, secure, affordable homes that we know people in Wales badly need. So, I would say a very important report by the committee, and one that I hope will really lead to the sort of action that we all want to see. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 9 this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on higher education, and I call on Cefin Campbell to move the motion.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. In solidarity with the hundreds of staff and students who were standing shoulder to shoulder in the rain and wind yesterday on the steps of the Senedd at the University and College Union rally, I move this motion in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Last week, the bombshell announcement from Cardiff University that 400 jobs were at risk, with several degree courses facing the chop, was yet another bitter blow to the higher education sector in Wales. Now, throughout this debate, my Plaid Cymru colleagues and I will outline why Welsh Government must take responsibility for the situation our higher education sector finds itself in, especially when it comes to putting the sector on a sustainable financial footing and ensuring enough nurses are being trained in Wales to properly staff our NHS.

While last week's announcement looms large in our minds and in the context of this debate, we must remember, of course, that Cardiff University are not the only institution treading these troubled waters. The latest information we have, based on university financial statements for 2023-24, shows the sector reporting a deficit of around £70 million. These figures, however, do not reflect more recent pressures, such as increased national insurance contributions, worth around £20 million, or the significant shortfall in international recruitment experienced this academic year, a potential £70 million to £80 million in lost income, indicating a more challenging position for the current financial year.

At Aberystwyth University, for instance, their most recent financial report notes the

‘increased use of a revolving credit facility’.

It beggars belief that the Welsh Government have let the situation get to the stage where one of our higher education institutions is, effectively, using something akin to a credit card to help balance the books. Furthermore, due to budgetary pressures, Trinity St David’s has announced the closure of the historic campus at Lampeter for undergraduate degrees. We cannot let the birthplace of higher education in Wales be the beginning of the end for our university sector.

Last year, around 2,500 jobs were lost as the flames went out at Tata in Port Talbot. With 1,000 jobs already cut from the higher education sector in recent years, and more potentially on the way, we could end up seeing a similar amount of jobs at risk at our universities. It didn't have to end that way in Port Talbot, and it doesn't have to end this way with our universities. Welsh Government should and could do more.

However, to solve a problem, one must first acknowledge that there is a problem and one must acknowledge the scale of that problem, in order to take responsibility, to show leadership and to take action. On every count, it appears that this Government is failing entirely on these grounds. We have a Minister who isn't offering any additional support, who washes her hands of responsibility, and hides behind a UK Government review, a review that we don't even know many details about, a review that may not happen at all.

In 1966, one of Wales's foremost literary figures, D.J. Williams, said,

'The University of Wales belongs to us; our forebears dreamt of it as a gift to their people; their pennies built it. Those people have no right, those who have never understood its meaning to our nation, to break it and to dismantle it, according to their own whims; nor to interfere with any one of those institutions that bears its name. Let us not rest, by day or by night, until the fate of our nation is in the hands of our own Parliament and Government, safely located on Wales's own soil.'

How then, almost 60 years later, and over 25 years since we established that Senedd and Government in our own hands, have we come to this situation where the Government of our country is allowing our higher education institutions to wither on the vine? What was the point of establishing this place if not to ensure, if the occasion were to arise, that our own Government, this Government, could step into the breach and support our higher education institutions in their hour of need? Rather than showing leadership, and standing up for the sector around the Cabinet table, the Minister is waving the white flag in the face of hundreds of redundancies.

The fact that the Minister raised false hope last autumn, in prematurely revealing the now non-existent transformation fund, has only sought to make matters worse. And it was only last week that we received confirmation from the Minister, in response to questions from me, that the Welsh Government had concluded that, and I quote,

'a transformation fund is not required for the sector at this stage.'

Goodness me, Minister, if not now, when? The Minister also said that Medr would have their own funds to support our institutions. Where are those funds? And for that matter, where is Medr? All we have seen or heard from the newly established organisation over the past week is a paltry four-paragraph statement, half of which was just repeating facts already known in the public domain. For the organisation that was set up to fund and support universities and students, an organisation second only to the Welsh NHS in terms of the size and scale of the budget it gets from Welsh Government, to offer no leadership, no reassurance or solutions, is yet another example of how Welsh Government have failed to properly protect and defend the sector. Medr can't hide behind the Welsh Government, and the Welsh Government can't hide behind Westminster.

We will all have heard the First Minister, in recent weeks, saying she can't answer for issues arising from powers retained by Westminster, and that we should focus all our scrutiny on what the Welsh Government actually have control over. Well, I can only imagine that the Minister for higher education didn't get the memo, seeing as when Members across the Siambr questioned her about these issues last week, she repeatedly stated that there wasn't anything more she could do, and that it was up to a UK Government review to sort it out. In the long term, that may well be the case, but that doesn't mean that the Minister should sit idly by and do nothing now. And how can we trust that this Welsh Government will properly stand up for Welsh universities in those discussions? How can we trust that this UK Government will even listen to Wales?

This is of particular concern given the fact that Plaid Cymru can reveal, through FOI responses, that, last autumn, despite the supposed partnership in power between Labour in Wales and Westminster, there was no correspondence between Welsh Government and UK Government regarding emergency funds and raising tuition fees in England. No correspondence, even though those policy decisions would have serious knock-on consequences for the higher education sector in Wales. A staggering lack of respect. A partnership in power means nothing if UK Government doesn't ensure Welsh Government are aware of changes to policies that will have far-reaching effects for Welsh higher education institutions.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call, therefore, on the Minister for Further and Higher Education to move formally amendment 1.

I move.

It is formally moved. Therefore, I call next on Natasha Asghar to move amendment 2. Natasha Asghar.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. The news of Cardiff University last week was deeply concerning, with 400 jobs hanging in the balance and a range of courses, including nursing, poised to be chopped. Whilst these, of course, are proposals and a final decision is expected to be made in June, if this goes ahead the impact will be catastrophic. It'll be catastrophic for staff, it'll be catastrophic for students, future generations, our economy and our country as a whole. Really important departments of Cardiff University, including nursing, are actively being considered for scrapping.

Let's not forget that Cardiff University's nursing course has been ranked No. 1 in Wales and fifth in the UK in the past. I find it utterly bewildering that the nursing course, which currently has around 800 students enrolled, has found itself in the cross hairs, particularly when we are facing a shortfall in the industry itself, so much so that the Welsh Government are offering bursaries to attract students into the nursing profession right now. I'd like to know what discussions have taken place with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to make up this anticipated shortfall in the workforce. It's vital that a thorough assessment looking at the impact of the proposed nursing school closure will have on our country as a whole, when carried out.

Financial troubles have been blamed for these brutal proposals, alongside a drop in the number of international students. In my view, something has seriously gone wrong somewhere in our capital city's university. That this department is so reliant on international students is a genuine concern. I'd be curious to know if Cardiff University is still going to be pushing ahead with opening a new campus in Kazakhstan in light of these new challenges. It would be a national disgrace if these closures and job cuts go ahead while the university pushes ahead with its plans for an overseas outlet.

I believe an official agreement is due to be signed this month, with its first cohort expected to arrive in September. This whole saga will be an even more bitter pill to swallow if Cardiff University is going to be prioritising Kazakhstan over Cardiff. I will be taking this point up personally with the vice chancellor in relation to the university's silence on this issue, as it's causing alarm bells to go off for me personally, but I'd really like to know what discussions the Government has had with the university on this front.

I'd also like to know if the Minister has sought reassurances from Cardiff University that more cuts aren't looming further down the line. I fear that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Universities across Wales are in a similar predicament, but Cardiff University was the first big domino to fall. Last week, I raised the issue of teaching ceasing at Lampeter, our oldest university, and now our biggest university is indeed in trouble. And we saw over the weekend that Swansea University is increasing its cost-cutting plan by £30 million, with more staff potentially leaving on top of the 342 who've already departed. Something is clearly going wrong.

I'd like to declare an interest, as my son-in-law works at the university, and I did a social work diploma there.

I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to debate this issue today. Since I had a topical question last week on Cardiff University, I've had the opportunity to meet with the UCU and other trade union representatives. I've met many of the academics and students from a number of the different schools that are to be impacted by the impending job cuts and school mergers. I was also pleased to speak to staff on the Senedd steps yesterday. I think the level of trauma that is felt by everyone attached to Cardiff University—and as shown in the reaction from all parties here in this Chamber—shows how deeply we feel about the universities and how the future of Cardiff is so important to all of us.

I want to reflect some of the comments and information that has been given to me by the people that I've met. As we all know, every single member of academic staff in Cardiff has been given notice that their job is under threat, which of course has caused great uncertainty throughout the whole university. The senior leadership team within each of the schools, they say, were not consulted on the proposals before they were issued last week. Many students heard about the job cuts and school closures on the news, and the students that I spoke to were very anxious about their courses and not sure what the future held.

Key information and data has not yet been released in order for people to fully respond to the consultation, but the 90-day clock has already started ticking. I have been told that the data on which some of these decisions have been taken appears to be out of date or arbitrary. Of course, some research posts at the university are jointly funded by the NHS and the university, and no consideration seems to have been given to this.

On Monday, I met three constituents who are academic staff at the School of Geography and Planning, and their school is destined for a merger with the School of Social Sciences. They are the only accredited planning school in Wales, and they are very anxious about the percentage of staff that will be lost from that department. Much of the work they do is very important to the Welsh Government and is very in line with our values. A considerable number of academic and professional staff are also on work visas, and have to be in full-time employment. Because of this, they aren't able to reduce their hours without it impacting on their visas, and if they lose their jobs completely, it's likely that they will have to leave Wales.

Last week, the RCN published its latest report on corridor care, a dangerous and totally unacceptable practice that is becoming increasingly common in our health service. Whilst there are a number of factors that have led to this worrying situation, there can be little doubt that a shortage of nurses is one of the most prominent factors, and we know already that Wales has a shortage of around 2,000 nurses at present. There can be no doubt, therefore, that the closure of the nursing school at Cardiff University, one of the most prestigious schools in the UK, will make things worse. And what is the Government's response? To wash their hands, to look away, and to say that it is nothing to do with them.

I accept that the university as an entity is independent of Government, but this Government has strategies, targets and, indeed, legislation in place that are dependent on producing sufficient numbers of nurses. Cardiff University is, therefore, a core partner in delivering on these pledges. Yesterday, we discussed nurses from Kerala. You can't rely on attracting nurses from abroad in sufficient numbers to meet Wales's health and care needs. Training nurses here is more effective and cheaper in the long term. Therefore, the Government has a duty to ensure that we have the ability to do that.

And more than that, it's an excellent school. As Helen Whyley, head of the RCN in Wales, said, the school has an illustrious reputation amongst the profession, and has developed a successful record of ensuring that those studying there remain to work in Wales. This, after all, is one of the best nursing schools in the United Kingdom. This Government, and Wales as a whole, cannot afford to lose it.

What is staggering is that just last year the university invested over £20 million to open a new campus, Heath Park West, for nursing. So, if the Government cannot ensure the future of what should be one of our most precious assets in responding to the crisis in our health workforce, why should we have any faith in their leadership and their stewardship of our NHS?

It is vital, therefore, that we receive an assessment from the Government on how they intend to sustain nurse training levels in Wales in the absence of Wales's best nursing school and the fifth best school in the UK as a matter of urgency, because it must be said that your record over the past decade, even with the clear advantages that the school in Cardiff has conveyed, doesn't inspire much confidence.

There are serious questions to ask about the way that this news was announced. The Minister will be aware that the university's nursing course is provided through contract with Health Education and Improvement Wales, which is supposed to run until 2027. Any significant changes to the terms of this agreement, including its location and the implications for staff and students, should, therefore, comply with public procurement legislation and the Competition Act 1998.

If I can deal firstly with a point that was made earlier, because it was an important one. I don't think that there's any way I'd want to go down the road, when we look at the funding issues facing our universities, of restricting the choices that are available to our students in terms of their aspirations and so on. I think that really is totally the wrong way, to seek about limiting their opportunities.

Will you take an intervention?

I've only just started. Give me—

It's just on that point. We often hear from the Labour benches, 'What would you cut? How would you reprioritise?' This is one of those instances. We think that we should increase participation in Wales to shore up Welsh institutions. And then if we've got the money to do the rest of it, then fine.

Well, if your message out to all the aspiring students in Wales is, 'We are going to limit your choice and restrict where you can go', I think that is something that is totally wrong and doesn't contribute to what is a much deeper problem.

We know there is a long-standing problem. We've had 14 years of austerity, and we know the impact that has had across the UK in terms of higher education. We know there are issues with regard to the funding model that need to be addressed. There have also been the issues in terms of immigration policy, which have clearly impacted on universities, and there's also the issue of the EU funding, which has been lost, which has also impacted, and the difficulties with regard to research.

I remember back in the 1970s, and others may as well, that the issue of overseas students was one where we actually felt, even at that stage as it was beginning, that using overseas students as somehow some sort of funder for the overall education system was something that was totally wrong. And I think it's unfortunate that it is such a significant feature, and probably just represents the challenges of austerity over the past 14 years in particular, but I accept it goes back a lot longer than that. And there's no doubt also that there is a need for an all-Wales review, and a review that impacts in terms of our interconnectivity with the whole of the UK system. So, I welcome choices that are being made now, or discussions that are taking place now to try and address those. Really a root-and-branch overall review, and that's something, again, that the Welsh Government certainly can take a lead in in terms of the vice-chancellors and the universities in Wales as part of that particular process.

But the point I really wanted to make is this: we know there is a challenge, and we know that it's a challenge that has to be addressed. But the way in which the university has gone about it, with almost an approach of a 'short, sharp shock' type approach—it seems to me as something that drives a coach and horses through the whole process that we have tried to develop within Wales of social partnership, where we work together, we work together both with the university, those who work within it, and also with the students as well. And it is really, I think, quite tragic that that is something that has almost been bypassed by a member of the social partnership council. I think that is something that really needs to be taken very seriously, and why I thought the suggestion from the Wales TUC of an emergency meeting of that was something that was well worth considering.

There's no escaping the fact that the news coming out of the higher education sector isn't just concerning, it's grim. Cardiff University is not just the biggest university in Wales but a long-standing national institution now facing an uncertain future. Before the Senedd, it was institutions like universities, like the national museum and other cultural institutions, that gave us our sense of nationhood. These were the bastions of pride in Welsh identity at a time when the very idea of Wales was under attack. Our cultural and educational institutions defined Wales and they all played a central role in getting us to this point now, where the idea of Welsh nationhood is a fact. And yet, here we are watching them erode.

In the case of Cardiff University, it's a particularly sore point not just because it was my university, but that very university, like many universities in Wales, wasn't founded by the wealthy elite or the political class, it was founded by workers who wanted a better life for their kids. It was paid for by the people, for the people. That's why, on the main building, you'll see etched into the stones murals of workers. Now, I can't shake the feeling that, with each passing disaster, from Tata to what is now happening in our universities, we are being weakened as a nation, setting us up for those who oppose the idea of Wales to knock us down.

Now, I have a lot of respect for the Minister for Further and Higher Education. The work that has been done around EMA shows me that she does get the importance of ensuring that everyone has equal access to education, but we are now in a position, aren't we—and this is a feeling out there—where the Government's stance is almost identical to its response to Tata: 'Nothing to do with us, and we'll just manage the fallout'. The feeling being relayed to me by constituents is rather than stepping in to protect vital institutions, the Welsh Government is content to simply oversee their decline, and from the UK Government, we've had silence. People want action, because the economic fallout could be huge. For each £1 of publicly funded research income, Welsh universities' research and knowledge exchange activities generate approximately £7.60 in economic impact. For every £1 of public funding for their teaching activities, Welsh universities generate approximately £13.60 in economic impact. So, it's key that we find solutions. And there are solutions. Cefin has set out just some of them. There are others in the area of research and innovation. Now, Richard Wyn Jones—and I'll declare an interest; he was both my lecturer and my tutor in my Master's degree—said, and I quote,

I think people on Plaid Cymru benches could learn a lot from Luke Fletcher, because although I didn't agree with everything he said, it was far less mean spirited than the contribution by Cefin Campbell, and I do feel that you could learn a lot from Luke in the way he delivers his contributions. I need to make a declaration of interest under Standing Order 13.8A—[Interruption.] You're going to want to listen to this. The Minister responsible is my partner, and, perhaps more importantly, as a member of the UCU of 25 years, I also have to declare an interest of continuing membership, and I'm a former lecturer and senior lecturer across two institutions over 16 years. So, my analysis is based not on the position of the Minister but on my contributions and experience in the sector and in-depth discussions I've had over the past weeks with academics in the sector, particularly in Cardiff University and the things that they've said to me about the disastrous path chosen by the leadership of Cardiff University.

The HE sector is clearly facing unprecedented challenges, which we've already heard about, which the Welsh Government, working in partnership with the UK Government, must continue to address, and I believe that they are doing that. But there is a feeling among those directly affected in Cardiff University by these decisions that Cardiff University is absolutely focused on pursuing elite-level status by increasing competition for places and ending courses like nursing that actually widen participation, and exactly against that principle of founding that Luke Fletcher mentioned.

Elite institutions, we know from research, are likely to entrench existing power, wealth and inequality, and all of the academics I spoke to—all of them—told me that the wider challenging HE context is relevant to the plans that Cardiff has unveiled, but it's also being used as a cover, the Welsh Government is being used as a cover, to pursue their elite strategic agenda. There is more going on here than simply is shown in the Plaid Cymru motion. And they're doing that by cutting and merging courses. That strategy is unforgiveable. A smaller university is more likely to become an elite university. Yesterday, the vice-chancellor, I'm told, told staff that the university council had been pressing her for some time for financial remediation. If that had happened using the £0.5 billion unrestricted reserves that they held, then much of that pain could have been avoided. Savings accumulate over time. Why did the vice-chancellor not act much sooner and more gradually, taking staff along with her? Why did the university council not press her harder? What does this say about our systems of university governance? And if we're going to look at anything in the short-term, that system of university governance that allows these situations to arise should be looked at. Today, we hear that UCU Cardiff plan to move forward with a vote of no confidence in the vice-chancellor and the university executive board. That is probably the least surprising of anything that's happened over the past few weeks.

I've also had constituents corresponding with me. One member of staff, a constituent, who is employed in the school of healthcare science told me, in her words that:

'As a profession, even though we are proud to deliver the fundamental basics of care, we also ran our own clinics, prescribed to patients, performed surgical procedures, advanced assessments and treatments and take the pressure off medics because of the shortage of doctors. We work collaboratively across many health and social care fields.'

Well, if we're looking for some consensus, yes, let's see the Welsh Government make the same demands that you just made now of Cardiff University, and you will have support from these benches. But what's been striking has been the weakness of the Welsh Government's response—[Interruption.] The Welsh Government can amend motions as well, and that's missing in an amendment. So, if we want to work together, let's ask the difficult questions and hear from the Welsh Government the views clearly, because all we've heard has been, 'Nothing to do with us'. So, we want to see today—[Interruption.] No, I will carry on with my response. We want to see today, yes, working together, but also a response from the Welsh Government that constituents have been demanding, because they've been contacting me, saying, 'We want to hear more from the Welsh Government.' It's not about, 'Let's work in social partnership', and taking no responsibility or accountability. So, I hope we will see the strength of that response today.

I'm glad that Luke Fletcher reminded us why these national institutions matter so much in terms of our identity, but also it's not just about the past, is it? It's about our current, yes, but our future, and the skill gaps that come from not having a university, and the Seren network does come into play with this. It's the only Russell Group university in Wales. If there is a reduction in courses, where are our students that want to stay in Wales going to go? So, if we look at the facts here—[Interruption.] Well, they won't be offered there, Mike. You mention Bangor, yes, but that's not a Russell Group university, though, is it? In terms of looking at some of the proposals here—

—I'm extremely concerned for the Welsh language. You will know that some of these proposals confirm that the school of Welsh faces cuts to the number of full-time staff working in the department, and the reduction in staff in other departments will put at risk the ability to provide courses through the medium of Welsh. The proposal to merge the School of Welsh with other schools, including the English department, is also a blow to the status of the language within the university. In response to this news, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has declared that it's crucially important that Cardiff University does everything within its power to safeguard the Welsh language and bilingual provision that has been developed over the years with the support of the college. So, I'd like to hear from the Minister in her response what steps she is taking in this regard, because the provision is crucial, of course, in delivering the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. And we also know that there is a statutory duty on Medr in relation to the Welsh language, so I would like to know what discussions have taken place with Medr to ensure that they act in accordance with their statutory duties towards the Welsh language.

If we look at what's proposed in terms of modern languages and translation, Cardiff University provides 62 per cent of all language degrees in Wales. This is yet another example of why it's important for the Welsh Government to grasp the seriousness of this situation and the wider impact these cuts will have on the Welsh Government's goals in other areas. In 2021-22, only 30 modern foreign language teachers were recruited in Wales, 50 per cent short of the Welsh Government's target. So, where does the Welsh Government expect the next generation of MFL teachers to come from if Cardiff no longer offers language courses? Additionally, situated within this department at the university is the MFL mentoring project team, which has worked with over 80 per cent of secondary schools in Wales, as well as the Love Reading project—two projects funded by the Welsh Government, aiming to change school students' attitudes to modern languages, as well as boosting literacy rates.

So, this closure would decimate an already fragile language ecosystem and the supply of language teachers and translators in Wales, leading to a significant cold spot for degree-level language provision in south and south-east Wales, and given that language skills are a key requirement for the success of the Welsh economy, having our largest and only Russell Group university unable to train and develop the translation, interpretation and global communication needs of an increasingly global Welsh workforce should worry us all. It cannot be allowed to happen.

And when we look at music—

—music isn't just an academic subject; it is the foundation of our national identity. As Ianto Williams said:

'Music plays such an important part in Welsh history and Welsh culture. It's the soundtrack to our lives'.

Musician and composer Sir Karl Jenkins, an alumnus of Cardiff University, said:

'It's not just training students through music, it's an investment in the cultural future of our country.'

There is more that this Government could do, there is more that this Government should do. The big question is: does this Government have the ability and the aspiration to deliver this?

Cefin Campbell began the debate by saying the Government could and should do more, but as ever with Plaid, I'm afraid, they call for more money for one department without being willing to confront the trade-offs from others, and attacking the Minister, Vikki Howells, is not fair. She is not to blame for a higher education system riddled with flaws. Neither would it be the right thing to do to take money from other parts of education, where, by the way, investing in early years is the single most important thing we can do to improve the life chances of the people of Wales, in order to plug a gap in higher education. So, I think we just need to step back a little here and ask the question: what are universities for? What role do they have to play in contributing to the stronger, fairer and greener Wales that we want to see?

Now, I was part of the last generation to receive a maintenance grant. It was low, but it covered my rent, and it allowed me to become the first in my family to go to university. Since then and the introduction of tuition fees, we have allowed the university sector to be driven by market forces, and the often absurdly highly paid university management were incentivised to follow the money. Teaching and research about Wales, which was never high on the agenda, have simply fallen off by the method of financing higher education that has been driven, and we've seen more and more intense efforts to get an international footprint, rather than think about the role they have in our society and our economy.

Now, it's clear that the current leadership of Cardiff University have handled this deficit crisis very poorly—

Before he goes on to that, I'm following him closely, I'm just wondering would he accept, though—I totally subscribe to the critique that he's just laid forward of corporatisation, of marketisation and the governance issues that Hefin David also referred to. But doesn't he accept that that is the responsibility of us as legislators, isn't it? We create that policy framework, and so while there are particular issues that need to be addressed now in terms of the crisis, we need to return to these governance issues, the legislative framework, and we need to do that relatively quickly.

I agree with that, and I'll come to that, and we as a Senedd and this Government do absolutely have a role in the university sector in Wales. But let me just say about the current handling by Cardiff University that I've just read that the director of nursing at Aneurin Bevan University Health Board said today that in spite of all the rhetoric, no decisions are final and this is out to consultation. They've already been e-mailed by Cardiff University to say there'll no more undergraduate or postgraduate nursing courses from Cardiff University. Now, that is shabby and it is short-sighted.

But the funding shortfall was foreseeable and was foreseen, and it's not just Cardiff—all other Welsh HE institutions have been quietly making voluntary redundancies, and I understand the initial 400 roles in Cardiff are just the first phase, because a business model built on sustaining their edifices by recruiting as many international students as possible is a bubble that is bound to burst. International students enrich our universities and our communities, but when the MBA courses at Wales's premier business school are full of Chinese and Indian students, we must ask if the civic role of our education system is being served. They have lost their way as a place that nurtures our brightest and best and the future of our society and economy. Teaching the Chinese elite seems a very short-sighted strategy to me.

Now, yes, these are independent institutions, and, yes, the drivers are mostly in the hands of the UK Government, but it is our higher education system, a system we prop up. We spend £1.2 billion every year from devolved budgets on funding students. Now, that's an opportunity cost, much of it flowing out of Wales. That was defensible in better times, but is it the best way for us to use finite resources when our basic university infrastructure is being cannibalised? We don't control all the levers, but we do control some of them, and we have choices to make.

I declare an interest, Llywydd, as my husband is employed by Swansea University and is a member of UCU, and I too used to be on the UCU committee at Swansea University when I worked there.

As the wife of a university professor, I can tell you that I've never seen in him and his colleagues such a level of stress, frustration, anger and anxiety, in all the 25 years that he's been lecturing, about the lack of focus by Government here and in Westminster, on the way the higher education workforce in Wales is being threatened, constantly undermined and undervalued.

The week before we heard the announcement, the shocking announcement that 400 academic jobs were at risk in Cardiff, in a question to the Minister I reminded her that the higher education workforce have been facing severe conditions for many years as a result of inaction to support and safeguard the vital contribution they make through our universities. I spoke about the devastating effect of year after year of voluntary severance schemes, which stripped departments of expertise and experience, pay freezes, which caused hardships and crippling demoralisation. And now the hammer blow of the threat of compulsory redundancies, and all of which, of course, as we've heard, is impacting on our students, our global reputation and our variability, and—amen to you, Lee Waters—our ability to analyse and understand and know who we are and what we are and how we can progress as a nation. How many times have we all referenced university research and innovation in our contributions here? In every single policy area, it would be hard to count them all if you check the Record. And what we have to understand is that it's those academics who've been under such pressure who do that crucial work, who teach the future generations who will do that work—work that takes a huge amount of dedication and ultra-specialist skill and insight. And what we saw last week, in sharp relief, is how the workforce are bearing the brunt of a failure to ensure that the contribution of the higher education workforce is valued and sustainably funded.

But every time I've raised the fact that student fees and current Government funding don't meet the costs of teaching undergraduates, let alone go near supporting research and innovation, as we heard from Luke Fletcher, I have been shocked to hear Ministers say that Welsh Government only has a small role to play. This is such a crucially important sector to us in Wales. And we lost hundreds of talented researchers when the impact of the loss of European structural funds hit. Because of Government inaction, we are now losing hundreds more academic staff, and those who are forced to leave—and a lot of people who take the voluntary exit scheme are forced to leave their posts; a lot of pressure is put on them—when they leave, they will find it almost impossible to find a comparable job that will allow them to continue to contribute their expertise, benefiting Wales in all the ways that we've been outlining.

The difficulty in our higher education system is not something that has just materialised, as many of the speakers have already said. While the breadth and the depth of the cruel potential cuts were shocking, the announcement was not. Cefin Campbell and Natasha Asghar have already highlighted examples of cuts and deficits at other universities in Wales, and Sioned Williams has given a personal account of the impact on her husband and his colleagues at Swansea University. While the inclusion of nursing—I found it baffling, unless, of course, what Hefin has told us is correct—. We cannot, as Heledd reminded us, forget the other subjects. Just because one subject is totally baffling, we cannot forget the other subjects.

Having a balanced society, which contains experts with deep knowledge across a wide range of subjects, is essential for a country that thrives. And let us remember, the subjects and departments at risk here in Cardiff University created for Wales, for the United Kingdom and for the world the likes of Martin Lewis, Karl Jenkins, as well as Bernice Reubens, the first woman to receive the Booker prize. [Interruption.] Of course.

Thank you very much for giving way. Do you share my regret that, looking at the courses that are going to either be cut or amalgamated if these proposals go ahead at Cardiff, so many of them are humanities subjects? And when it comes to humanities subjects, if we think about music, literature, languages, history, they are the very subjects that allow us to understand where we’ve come from, they allow us to understand ourselves and other people and to give some appreciation to us. They enrich the way that we live our lives, our fragile lives. Isn’t that something that we should be doing everything we can to preserve?

Well, Sioned Williams give Lee Waters an ‘amen’, I’ll second the ‘amen’ to you, Delyth Jewell. Of course, I agree with you completely. Sioned reminded us, with regard to her husband, these cuts impact so many people and their families. I had an e-mail yesterday from an academic who came to Cardiff from Aberdeen last year, to have a job in one of the now threatened departments. They moved to Cardiff, they invested in Wales, the children are in Welsh-medium education, they are learning Welsh and this is how we are repaying them. Simply, as Lee Waters, in a far more eloquent way than I can ever do, said the current model is not sustainable. We are asking our students to pay more and more money and go deeper and deeper into debt, our academics are paid less than the equivalent academics in other English-speaking countries, and despite all this our universities are still facing budgetary holes of millions of pounds.

Wales was late in gaining universities. Lampeter, Llywydd, is a baby compared to St Andrews and Bologna. The dream of Owain Glyndŵr did not materialise. It was not royalty that gave us universities. But as Cefin and Luke have already said, to a great extent, it was the hard-earned money of workers and their families, people who wanted a better life for their children and grandchildren, people who saw university as a continuation of school. They did not see universities as a business or as a way to get into a large amount of debt.

Now, I appreciate the perfect storm that has hit higher education in Wales. We’ve heard of many of them: Brexit, tough immigration laws, austerity, COVID, cost-of-living crisis, the war in Ukraine—all of these work against our universities. And also, as Lee Waters already mentioned, some responsibility also needs to lie with the universities themselves, on poor financial decisions, on inflated management costs. Now, I don’t think anyone here is laying the blame wholly at the door of the Welsh Government. We can all appreciate that the situation is not unique to Wales. But I think it was Sioned Williams that said yesterday, from a sedentary position, this is not unique to Wales, but these institutions are unique for us in Wales. Our communities are reliant on our universities in a way that isn’t true about English university cities. For example, Swansea is far more reliant on its universities than, say, Birmingham or Manchester. Our universities played a crucial role in developing Wales as a nation, as Luke has already said, and now we must find urgent ways to support them. We cannot allow the deterioration to continue, because there’s only one thing that will happen: the situation will get worse, we will lose talented people, and we will then lack the expertise and the knowledge we need to recover. Diolch yn fawr.

The Minister now to contribute to the debate—Vikki Howells.

Llywydd, I want to begin by expressing my most sincere sympathy with the staff affected by the announcement at Cardiff University. I recognise the anxiety that these proposals will have for staff and students. Over the past week, I have met with every vice-chancellor, representatives of UCU at yesterday’s protests and the NUS, in order to further understand the pressures facing the sector and explore how Welsh Government can provide support through this difficult period.

These discussions, Llywydd, are conversations that build upon the ongoing dialogue I’ve had with the sector since I was appointed in September. I’ve been clear in my communication with vice-chancellors that I expect institutions to adhere to the principles of social partnership and work in a spirit of honest collaboration with the trade unions and the affected workforce on any proposed restructuring. I also want to say to students and applicants that universities in Wales are and will remain an excellent place to study.

Llywydd, we do need to be clear about the challenges facing our higher education sector, but I also want to dispel several misconceptions surrounding the financial state of our universities and Welsh Government support for them. Our universities in Wales are not underfunded. OECD data suggests that universities in the UK are some of the best funded in the world. And when it comes to Wales, analysis by London Economics published last year has found that income for universities per full-time home student in 2023-24 was only slightly less than in England. Crucially, this analysis was conducted before the increases to the tuition fee cap in the past two years.

Furthermore, when including student maintenance grants, the analysis showed that the Welsh Government provides double the contribution to the overall cost of university compared to the UK Government, whilst also providing 20 per cent more income to universities compared to Scotland and Northern Ireland. We have overseen a decade of significant growth in the university sector in Wales, which, in 2024, employed 2,000 more full-time workers than it did in 2014, and, in 2022-23, had enrolled over 22,000 more students than in 2014-15.

But we also need to be frank: even if we were to cut grants for students or divert funding away from the NHS, schools or local government to increase funding for our universities, as some Members opposite would have us do, universities would still need to change in response to external challenges, particularly the significant drop in international postgraduate enrolment, the loss of millions of pounds of EU structural funding, and these are challenges faced by universities across the UK.

Will you take an intervention on that?

Very quickly.

Something else that Paul Boyle said on Politics Wales, which you appeared on in a pre-recorded interview as well, was that he’d never seen in all his long career in higher education such a financial crisis. So, I just wanted to know if you were going to acknowledge that. You can’t shut that down.

Yes. I do recognise that, Sioned, and I'm just about to go on to that, I can assure you.

So, as a Government, we do not shrink from the challenges that our universities are now facing, and we have taken and will continue to take appropriate action in our areas of devolved responsibility. We’ve taken the difficult decision to raise tuition fees in the next academic year. Combined with a fee increase in the current academic year, we estimate this will have provided an additional £36 million in fee income for the sector. Furthermore, we’ve been able to provide an additional £10 million in-year grant funding to the sector following the autumn statement. I’m assured that Medr is diligently performing its duties as sector regulator and providing appropriate monitoring, oversight and constructive challenge to institutions on the state of their finances. Health Education and Improvement Wales is working closely with Welsh Government, health boards and other HE providers that deliver nursing education to safeguard the ongoing training of nurses in the Cardiff area, and we are confident that, through the options being explored, we will maintain the same number of overall nursing places in the region.

Looking forward, there is more that we can and will do to ensure a sustainable and successful future for higher education in Wales, one that continues our universities' significant contributions to culture, public services and local and national economies. As I’ve already said, this is an ambition we share with the UK Government. That is why the Cabinet Secretary for Education and I met with the UK Minister for skills on Monday to discuss how the Welsh and UK Governments can work together on higher education reform.

But we are also taking the necessary action within Wales to address the current challenges. Despite its many merits, it is still right and proper that we ensure we are getting the best value for Wales from our student funding system. That is why we have commenced an evaluation of the Diamond student funding reforms, and that will publish initial findings in the autumn. I’ll also be asking Medr to begin an overview of the demand, provision and distribution of subject areas in HE in Wales, and to consider what might be required to ensure strategically important subject areas can continue.

Finally, I want us to continue to promote Wales as a place to study, both for our own students and those from abroad, and that is why, today, I can confirm that we will continue to fund the Global Wales programme beyond July for a further transition year. This will continue to support the international recruitment that is so vital.

Cefin Campbell now to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone for their contributions. This has been a very important debate and one certainly that is influential in terms of measuring the temperature in the Senedd with regard to our support for the sector.

I’m grateful for the contributions; I can’t, obviously, with the time I have, respond to all of them. But I just would like to pick up on a few points that have been made. I think we need an honest debate and a conversation about the future of our universities in Wales. We need an honest debate about a funding model that is totally unsustainable at the moment. Lee Waters asked a very important question about where do our universities go in future, what is their role and whether universities should be collaborating more together. Those are genuinely grown-up discussions that we should be having in this place, but because of time restrictions—. And by the way, Llywydd, I should have declared an interest right at the beginning; my daughter's a third-year student in Cardiff University, so I'll just put that on the record. But I'd like to maybe home in on some of the responses we've heard from the Minister, and I genuinely refer to her not at a personal level, but as the spokesperson throughout this unfortunate time for universities, the spokesperson for the Government, and that's the context that I'm presenting my final comments in.

What I have found, and my colleagues here in particular have seen, is that the reality of the Welsh Government's case has not been matched much in their rhetoric, and let me explain. Firstly, a claim has been made today that this year the sector has received a total of £200 million from Welsh Government. Yes, but, when spread across eight institutions, that barely touches the sides in terms of the deficit they currently have and will have in future. So, we need to invest because it is a time of crisis. [Interruption.] We understand it's across the UK, but I'm concerned about our universities now. They need an investment to get them out of the hole that they're in now, so that we can plan for the future.

Then the claim that we have given them an extra £10 million from the autumn statement. This, in essence, is merely a reversal of the initial £11 million cut that you made to the sector's budget at the start of the 2024-25 financial year, so no gain there. Thirdly, the claim made on Politics Wales on Sunday that the Government, and I quote, are prioritising the education budget instead. I'm not quite sure what that means, because what do you think as a Government the ‘E’ stands for in HE? If education is being prioritised, why stop at age 18? Should Government not be prioritising education as a whole, including HE?

And then the claim that universities are autonomous institutions that only receive 10 per cent of their funding from Welsh Government. This is a misreading of the Higher Education Statistics Agency data. According to the latest figures, around 50 per cent of the university's income derives from tuition fees. Now, does the Minister not consider this vast amount from the Student Loan Company, itself funded by the Government, as public funds? Could those funds not be used—

I've been very generous with your time, Cefin Campbell.

Right, okay. Thank you, Llywydd.

You'll need to come to a conclusion.

I'll finish by saying this. So, the £22 million extra has been wiped out by national insurance contributions.

Llywydd, I’ll finish by saying this. Education is in our DNA as a country. Wales has a proud record of learning, as a learning nation, and, whilst universities may rethink their plans, we must support jobs moving forward, and the students, of course. We can't let the promise of those who contributed—the colliers, the farm labourers and the slate quarry miners—be taken away from future generations. That is what's at stake here, and I urge the Welsh Government to listen. Doing nothing is not an option. To respect our past—

I've been even more generous.

—and preserve our future, I urge all Members to vote for the motion. Thank you.

Okay, we'll come to that, then.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung we will proceed to our first vote. And the first vote this afternoon is on item 6. That is the Standards of Conduct Committee report, the 'Nineteenth Report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Hannah Blythyn. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 54, one abstention, none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on item 7. This is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal from Sioned Williams, a Bill on support for unpaid carers. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Sioned Williams. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 31, 22 abstentions, two against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

We now move to item 9, the Plaid Cymru debate on higher education. The first vote is on the motion without amendment. Open the vote on the motion in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 43 against. The motion is therefore not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 1, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Close the vote. In favour 29, no abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed and amendment 2 is deselected.

And the final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, 14 abstentions, 12 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

That concludes voting for this evening.

And we will now move to the short debate. And this evening's short debate is to be presented by Hefin David, and Hefin David may start when Members have given us some quiet.

I'd like to say thank you to everybody who said, 'Sorry for leaving.'

My eyes were opened to this subject, future flight technologies, when on 11 September I stepped in for Ken Skates to chair a future flight technology Senedd Cymru round-table. I was half expecting Ken to be responding today, but Rebecca has drawn the long straw. This round-table kicked off a series of events across the UK and was hosted in partnership with the future flight social science research programme at the University of Birmingham, and I genuinely did go along thinking they're going to start talking about flying cars, Back to the Future style, but it was nothing like that.

Professor Fern Elsdon-Baker who directs the programme—without whose assistance, by the way, this short debate wouldn't make any sense whatsoever—told us about the three potentially transformative flight technologies. That's non-passenger-carrying drones—I hope, Cabinet Secretary, you're going to say, 'I know all about these, I knew this all along'; electric vertical take-off and landing vehicles, which henceforth are referred to as eVTOLs—I hope that's right; and electric-hydrogen regional air mobility, which is known as RAM.

The Department for Transport's 2024 'UK Future of Flight Action Plan' identified numerous use cases for these kinds of future flight technologies, and they were particularly economic benefit, regional mobility and postal and medical services. So, we were really keen to explore—. There was also agriculture use as well. We were really keen to explore, 'Well, if you applied this to Wales, what is it going to look like?' Well, here are some Wales examples and perhaps some examples from elsewhere in the UK as well.

Wales is one of the main areas in the UK in which future flight technologies are being designed and adopted, including six projects receiving UKRI future flight funding. So, it's perhaps just as well the Minister for Further and Higher Education is here to hear that. Several of these are supported by the Welsh Government. Wales is therefore leading the way on the development of policy around flight technologies, and the purpose of this debate today is to explore what we can build on and what we're already doing, what more we can do, and how the Welsh Government can be supportive. I'm hoping to attend a round-table in Westminster later this year—perhaps in the spring—where I can present to the round-table exactly what the Welsh Government is doing.

To give you an example, the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust are leading the Welsh health drone innovation partnership and working with Snowdonia Aerospace and drone developer SLiNK-TECH, to develop plans for a trans-Wales medical drone delivery network. So, you're actually transporting blood—you could even, one day, be transporting organs—without needing to be on the road, to district general hospitals in Betsi Cadwaladr, Hywel Dda, and Powys local health boards. This is a very real solution. In the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, the sustainable aviation test environment project has been testing the use of drones for NHS activities as well. And the drone company Windracers has been trialling delivering Royal Mail postal services to the Orkney Islands.

We also discussed possible use of this kind of technology for Transport for Wales. So, therefore, you could use that drone technology for rail maintenance without having to introduce bus replacement services, which would be a really interesting opportunity. To the damage caused by recent storms and floods, we could also have exactly the same approach, with drones being used to repair National Grid powerlines, freeing up skilled line workers to focus on specialist skills rather than, for example, the collection of data. And recent concerns about sewage in our estuarine and coastal waters and its impacts on tourism may be a thing of the past, with companies like Makutu and Skyports working with Northumbrian Water to use drones to monitor water quality in hard-to-reach areas, helping water companies to proactively respond to problems and improve worker safety.

Zero-emission vertical take-off and landing vehicles, the eVTOLs, designed to carry up to four passengers, are being built and tested by Bristol-based company, Vertical Aerospace. So, still not quite flying cars, but you can get the idea. Far from being the stuff of sci-fi, these air vehicles are actually working. I invite the Minister to try one. [Laughter.] We'll get one off Temu. This is not an idea that is that far off in the distant future; these vehicles are just around the corner, and, actually, some of the companies that I was talking to were talking as early as 2027 for marketing some of the products that I've referred to here.

Airbus also told me that the next generation of aircraft, in Broughton and Newport, will be produced, powered by green hydrogen. They wanted to make a case for that as part of this process. Hydrogen in aviation provides an opportunity to further the opportunities of bringing hydrogen aircraft to market by 2035. And also, they've mentioned to me CityAirbus, an all-electrical aerial transporter, and part of the Airbus urban mobility project. It's designed to make cities and communities smaller, and first originated from the belief that urban and advanced mobility can be moved into the sky and will provide communities with additional ways to reach their destination. So, Airbus are working on that too.

Will you take an intervention?

If I'm allowed.

No, you can only intervene on the Minister in a short debate. Sorry, Andrew.

There we are. You'll have to wait. You'll have to ask your question to Rebecca Evans. I'm learning as I'm going along, to be honest with you.

In Wales, we provide a unique test bed, given our population size. So, the geography, the terrain, the nature of our environment, we've got a real opportunity to be a market leader with the technology, as it's being developed. And it's not just an opportunity to trial the new and innovative ways of providing better services that I've mentioned in emergency and transport; it's an opportunity to provide better connectivity across those isolated communities that I've mentioned too. And I think that will lead to jobs and business opportunities as well, connecting those isolated communities in a way that, previously, we've been unable to do.

It's also an industrial opportunity, because I think we've got a sector here that we can develop in Wales. I've met companies that are Wales-based that are doing these things. Airbus are keen to see some of these things develop. There's a real opportunity to see how we can create this new market here in Wales. And, of course, maintenance and repair is another area, not just the innovation and the development of the technology; the maintenance and repair will come in as well.

So, I'm going to ask you some questions, Minister. Do you want me to go slowly, so you can write them down as I'm going? What do we want from the Welsh Government? How do we achieve this transition to a fundamental new and innovative net-zero delivery of connectivity, goods and services, in a way that is socially just? How do we deliver this in a way that brings people with us? What we'd really like to see—and this is a genuine ask, a genuine ask, and perhaps you could speak to the Cabinet Secretary for transport alongside this—is the establishment of a dedicated working group, to consider in detail how we can integrate these emerging technologies into the broader economic and transport goals involving wider society. So, we'd really love to see perhaps a Welsh Government advisory group, something set up to enable us to garner that knowledge from the sector.

We think the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales has a role here too. We'd like to see the Welsh Government ensure that all key stakeholders are integrated into devolved decision making, and we think the future generations commissioner's office would be a natural place to be a repository for stakeholder evidence, information, and even perhaps chair the working group. He's coming, actually, to Caerphilly very soon—I'm not sure if it's this Friday—and I'm hoping to have a discussion with Derek Walker then.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to reply to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Great. Thank you very much. I was hastily writing a different speech because my original one was all about flying cars, but maybe we'll save that for another short debate. The aviation industry has and will always be driven by technology and by innovation, and as we've heard right now, the sector is really opening up many and varied possibilities for future flight technologies that can transform how we connect with people, how we transport goods and how we deliver services in a sustainable way that delivers socioeconomic benefits. And to engage with these opportunities, we should start by recognising what propositions we already have here in Wales today.

So, in terms of businesses, we have a significant aerospace presence with Airbus and GE Aerospace each having sizeable operations. And other companies with a presence in Wales also include the BAE Systems, British Airways Engineering, Conetic and Babcock. Research assets include Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre Cymru, based at the Airbus Broughton site, and part of the UK Higher Value Manufacturing Catapult, the Compound Semiconductor Applications Catapult, and also the TWI's Advanced Engineering and Materials Research Institute. So, we already have, I think, a really good ecosystem to put us at the forefront of this particular agenda.

Other assets include our sites for uncrewed flight off the coast of west Wales. And at Llanbedr in Gwynedd and Aberporth in Ceredigion, we have an area of more than 7,000 square kilometres of segregated airspace of unlimited height over land and sea. And these are specifically designated areas for the testing and certification of civil and defence aircraft and the systems needed to ensure their safe integration into commercial airspace.

Llanbedr's recent focus has been on developing a space test centre, but it does continue to attract the large test-flight programmes for uncrewed aerial vehicles or drones on a project-by-project basis. Aberporth has also been successful in attracting new companies to the business park beside the runway, and a recent example is TEKEVER, who were attracted by Aberporth's ability to provide safe and segregated airspace, enabling the testing and evaluation of drone software and hardware. Between 2023 and 2026, TEKEVER plan to create an additional 200 jobs between its sites in Southampton and Aberporth.

We've also seen success with the UK Research and Innovation's future flight challenge competition, which we've heard about this evening, where a consortium spearheaded by Snowdonia Aerospace, in collaboration with Bristol-based company SLiNK-TECH and the Welsh health drone innovation partnership is embracing drone technology for transporting blood products. And Cardiff Airport was also a partner in the SafeZone project, which was undertaken to improve the safety of and effectiveness of uncrewed aerial vehicles in an urban environment, with flight trials taking place around the airport.

[Inaudible.]

We'll have to look into that, Hefin, and see what the art of the allowed is on that one. [Laughter.] Of course, Hefin was absolutely right to frame this debate in terms of developing the propositions, whilst also retaining public support, because that's, obviously, really critical. And, of course, the aviation sector generally can arouse some really strong opinions. We've seen that around plans in relation to the expansion of Heathrow, for example, and future flight technologies are certainly going to arouse the same strong opinions. And like artificial intelligence, there is huge potential here to do a lot of good, but also people recognise that there are possibilities for harm.

So, the advantages and the opportunities of future flight technologies are undeniable. Cargo-carrying drones increasing connectivity to remote rural and isolated communities and, as I've said and as Hefin has said, drones carrying medical treatment, as well as solar-powered aircraft and the reduction of fossil fuels are all benefits that we can see in this space. But alongside the benefits, there’ll be huge opportunities to create new green skilled jobs in areas such as manufacturing, drone pilots and airspace management.

However, there is some resistance to unmanned aerial technology, as some people make that link with military platforms, with the use of drones for covert surveillance, reconnaissance and warfare and so on, and Hefin also outlined a range of other concerns that have been raised in this space. Another, I would say, would be developments in sustainable aviation fuel—they can be contentious. The world isn't producing enough to meet the current demands from the industry and there are numerous ways of producing it, including from some specific crops and feed stocks, but, of course, vast areas of farmland, then, would need to be turned over to meet the global demand there. And many people do have views about aircraft powered by electricity and hydrogen. For example, they'll be mindful of the carbon footprint of producing the necessary batteries, including the mining of raw earth materials, minerals, and the carbon footprint of the production of hydrogen.

And Hefin talked about the meeting that he chaired in the Senedd in December where those wider social and economic impacts of the future flight technologies were discussed, and I think, in recognising all of the benefits in that space, it's also important that we do engage with those potential challenges as well. And I know that at the meeting, the Future Flights Social Insight programme at the University of Birmingham reported on their public survey, and we've heard some key findings from that this evening. And as is the case with AI, there was notable public concern over the need for transparent and accountable governance structures for these new technologies, which I think we would all support the need for. Safe ground infrastructure, regulations and control systems will be crucial factors for deliberation in that space, and concerns around safety, cyber security, noise, privacy and environmental impact do need to be understood and they need to be addressed.

Thank you both. And for your information, I am supporting an event in the Farchnad in two weeks on sustainable aviation fuel, so pop along.

That brings today's proceedings to a close.