Children, Young People, and Education Committee

Okay. Welcome back. We're having our ninth evidence session for our inquiry: do disabled children and young people have equal access to childcare and education? I'd like to welcome Catherine Falcus, from the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru, a policy and leadership specialist. You're very welcome. Thank you for taking the time to join us today. We will be asking a number of questions of you, Catherine, so I'll make a start, and we'll start around the extent of the issue. To what extent are children's rights to an education being denied due to their additional needs? And, perhaps, whether their physical or learning disability, being neurodivergent or having additional learning needs—are there differences between these three wide groups of children and young people?

Okay. Obviously, I'm going to give a view that is a general view across the landscape and then some feedback from our members on what their perceptions are. So, I think first of all what I would say is that I think all school leaders would acknowledge that they would want to cater for the needs of all of their learners, regardless of their needs, and there wouldn't be any deliberate or conscious effort to deny this, but I think that they are faced increasingly with learners who have increasingly complex needs, and particularly in a large school setting, having to deal with all of those needs does present various challenges in overcoming them. So, that would be my general thing. Obviously, those include finances and resources, available staffing, training, et cetera, which I'm sure we'll get into more, later on in the discussion.

Absolutely. Thank you. To what extent are children and young people with additional needs able to access all areas of education, including extra-curricular activities? Do you think that school estates are fully accessible for learners? And do you have any ideas how these things could be improved?

Right. A big question. I mean, again, I think schools do a very good job in accommodating the needs of learners. In many cases, with members that I have spoken to and discussed this with, they make adaptations to the curriculum, obviously to differentiate teaching approaches, using available support—teaching assistants in class to offer one-to-one support in class, using specialist staff.

With respect to extra-curricular, there are some examples of really good practice going on. I was talking to a member the other day who has a disabled pupil and is also a rugby fan, and they have created a wheelchair rugby club for all pupils in collaboration with the local university, which offers a coach and provides wheelchairs, et cetera. So, that kind of practice is going on there. They're reliant on that partnership with the university to provide the resources, because obviously there is a lack of funding for that. With respect to—. I mean, that's just one example. Obviously, with extra-curricular activities, not all pupils want to engage in any case, but I think schools, where they can, will offer that out to all pupils.

I think, with regard to the school estate, I think that depends. Obviously, some of the newer build schools have better facilities. I know in some of the older schools, there are difficulties with accessibility to certain areas, and those have to be dealt with a little bit more creatively by schools, by re-rooming classes, and obviously then making adaptations as well. Again, it varies across the school environment.

Okay, thank you. Do schools have adequate policies to support school staff in treating all learners equally, and to what extent are children and their families aware of such policies?

In general, schools do have policies. They would have their equal opportunities policies, and the expectation is that they are published. In terms of how aware parents are and how transparently published they are, I think it varies, and I wouldn't make any pretense of this. I think that schools do communicate well with pupils with specific needs and do work well, from my experience and the feedback that I've had from parents and from the learners themselves, so those channels of communication are very good, but that's my perspective from the evidence that I've got.

Okay. Just following on from that, to what extent do schools consult with learners and their families on their accessibility plans?

Again, talking from my general experience, the channels of communication between individuals would be very good, very open, and would be revisited and reviewed regularly. In terms of, more generally, accessibility plans, I think there is more variance across schools in terms of their obligation to actually produce that and publish it. I think it's something that will evolve more as we embrace the new Act and deal with that sort of transformation and the getting to grips with the new policy more and more, as it embeds more and more.

Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gaf i ofyn i chi—? Dwi eisiau canolbwyntio o ran rhai o'r rhwystrau. Beth, yn eich barn chi, ydy'r prif ffactorau sy'n rhwystro rhieni rhag cael—? Sori—dwi wedi mynd i'r rhai anghywir. Beth ydy'r rhwystrau rhag darparu addysg gwbl gynhwysol?

Well, I think it's fair to say that at the top of the list is the available funding. We are in, particularly, a time of austerity, and across the piece with education, funding is an issue, and obviously, then, this has a knock-on effect on our learners with ALN. The availability of staff. I know that, talking to a headteacher recently, working in primary, they use their funding very efficiently. They've got things like sensory facilities, they've got a sensory garden for their neurodivergent pupils, so there's evidence there that they're using their funding appropriately to enhance the environment, to make it appropriate, but what they say frustrates them is that sometimes they wait a long time for diagnosis and for specialist provision, and that is obviously a barrier to expediting what they need to meet the learners' needs.

I've just touched on school buildings and that some of the school buildings are quite old, and, although they have adaptations, things like corridors and staircases make moving around buildings inaccessible. I think, sometimes, staff training: obviously, in a large school, where you've got different pupils with different needs, some of the needs are quite specific, so ensuring that you have appropriate training for a wide body of staff—because the learners may encounter a number of teachers and other staff during the day—and making sure that that is communicated efficiently is a barrier and needs to be managed well and managed carefully.

And, just as I've already mentioned, the range of needs that has to be catered for, and keeping those channels of communication and regular review. And, of course, still, at the moment, using two systems—the special educational needs and the ALN are still sort of working in parallel. And I know that the SEN is phasing out now, but that and embracing the reform has obviously been massive, and has taken time to embed and for people to become familiar and work their way around. And the extra time and workload that that has actually presented has caused challenges.

So, obviously, there is a raft of things that are a challenge, but schools work very hard, and our members work very hard, to try to overcome these as best they can.

Pwy ydych chi'n meddwl ddylai fod yn cefnogi'r ysgolion gyda hyn, a bod efo'r cyfrifoldeb? Ydy o'n stopio gydag ysgolion neu awdurdodau lleol? Where does the buck stop, math o beth?

It's obviously a collective responsibility. An ideal answer is with the learner, with the parents, with the school, with the local authority, with whatever external agencies. It's really, really important that everybody does work in collaboration. To actually sort of point a finger and say 'the buck stops', it's difficult. Schools do rely on local authorities, on Welsh Government, for funding, so if you wanted to point a finger there. Then, obviously, they rely on other agencies for expertise, so, again, if you wanted to point a finger there.

But I think it's very much a collaborative thing, working with the individuals themselves, and making sure that the needs are fully understood, and that there is an understanding from the learners, with the parents, right across the piece, really.

Diolch. Rydyn ni wedi clywed y gallai ysgolion ddweud wrth deuluoedd nad ydyn nhw'n gallu cynnig yr holl gefnogaeth sydd ei hangen ar ddysgwyr efo anghenion ychwanegol oherwydd cyfyngiadau ariannol. Beth ydy'ch barn chi ar hyn, ac oes gennych chi unrhyw syniadau o ran sut gellid goresgyn problemau o'r fath?

I don't have a specific example of where that has happened. I know of members where learners with complex needs, particularly at points of transition between primary and secondary, where they have named a school and it's been very challenging for the school to accommodate the pupil. And not because they don't want to, but because of their ability to meet the complex needs within the timescale, and to be able to provide the adaptations that are necessary. So, I think it's fair to say that, in my experience, it's unlikely that one of our members would deny admission to a pupil, but I think, by negotiation with the parents and actually looking at what is best, then sometimes an initial choice has changed, and I think that is just where we are in terms of the resources that are available and the timeliness of them, and the cost and how we can actually make things happen for the young person, for the best for their education.

Diolch. A jest cwestiwn olaf gen i. Rydyn ni wedi clywed dipyn ynglŷn â hyfforddiant wrth gymryd tystiolaeth. Beth ydy'ch barn chi ynglŷn â pha mor ddigonol ydy'r hyfforddiant sydd ar gael i staff ysgolion? Ydych chi'n credu bod angen hyfforddiant anabledd ychwanegol? Ac os felly, pwy ydych chi'n meddwl ddylai fod yn arwain ar hyn?

That is a really good question and, I think, in terms of education at the moment, with reforms—not just with ALN but with curriculum—what schools are faced with is massive, and I agree that the training and the most appropriate training are really important. I've mentioned already the complex needs and the range of needs that may present within a school environment, particularly a big school. If I'm honest, I don't know what the answer is. Obviously, specialist training is the best. Obviously, that can be provided, often most efficiently, by external agencies. I know that there is training out there, and I know of instances where schools have sourced their own trainers to come in and offer bespoke training for the needs of particular individuals within their school. I know that there is training within IT, but that's within the raft of training for education generally. So, at risk of talking around the question, there is no perfect solution within the resources that we have, but I think it's a multi-agency approach that really is best suited, because sometimes the training that can be offered within school can be very, very bespoke to a particular learner, whereas sometimes more generic training is required, depending on the need. So, I don’t know if that addresses your question.

It does. Diolch.

Diolch. A question now from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. We've heard and heard through evidence that children with additional needs suffer bullying while at school. So, I'm interested to what extent you think that happens while those children are at school. And do you think the support and intervention that schools have is adequate? And do you think it addresses the problem when it arises within our school environments?

If I'm honest, it's not something that's been brought to my attention from members as a particular issue. Obviously, bullying is always key. Schools are obliged to have policies and processes in place to deal with bullying. I know that a lot of schools do a lot of work, particularly within Curriculum for Wales and around the health and well-being area, in terms of developing that inclusive environment within schools and actually consciously broadening young people's understanding of additional learning needs and disabilities, and valuing and respecting young people. So, I'm not saying that there aren't incidences of bullying; it's not, from the information that I have from our members, something that has been a particular concern, but that it would come as part of the whole-school bullying processes and procedures.

Okay, thank you. If you do get any examples from members, it'd be really useful to feed that back through to the committee.

I just want to go somewhere different now, into school transport. We've heard that there is an issue for learners with additional learning needs and additional needs with school transport. So, how do you feel that school transport affects their ability to access all areas of education, including those extra-curricular activities that other pupils can access quite regularly? We are finding that pupils with these additional needs can't access the transport to get them there and from there, so it would be interesting to hear your views on that.

Yes. I mean, I don't have any specific evidence of issues with transport. I do have one or two anecdotes of where pupils with additional learning needs and additional disabilities have been included in things, and so, therefore, the transport has been provided for them by the school. But I'm afraid I can't give you much evidence with respect to that question, because it's not something that's really been raised by our members, unfortunately.

Okay. That's fine. My final question, Cadeirydd, is around funding. We're all aware of the pressures that local authorities are under in terms of funding, and that obviously equates down into our schools as well, and the pressures that they are under. But with that all-inclusive learning environment and making sure that pupils with additional needs are supported as well, when we ask questions on this in the Chamber, the Minister for education here will say that money is available for anybody suffering with an additional need in a school, and that money should be made available to them. When we speak to school leaders and local authorities, they tell us that the money isn't coming through from Government and that resources are very sparse and they can't get that money. So, somebody somewhere is being economical with the truth, or money is being held somewhere and not actually being passported. So, I'd like to get your views on that, of where you think this money is being held, if it's going anywhere, and actually not reaching the pupils who need it. Because if we are going to create those inclusive learning environments for everybody, and support our teachers and our school staff, the money has to be there to do that, so I'd be grateful to get your views and opinions on that. And that's my final question. Thank you.

Yes. I don't think I can answer your question in total. I think the money that goes in to schools—in my experience and to my knowledge, from members and my own experience in school—is actually used wisely and it's used appropriately. I think that a message that has come through is that there is a lack of transparency in how the funding is allocated to schools. So, how that is translated from the grant funding, via Welsh Government, and then via the LEAs and in to schools and the consortia, et cetera. So, I think my answer would be that what is required is more transparency of where that funding, or how that funding, is actually allocated and how it's allocated equitably to different schools.

Diolch. Thank you, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Questions now from Ken Skates. Oh, you're—

Just some questions—. Oh, sorry. Can you hear me now?

It's okay now. Yes.

I can, yes.

Apologies. Thanks, Chair. I'm going to ask some questions about impact, if I may, beginning with your views on the impact of discrimination, due to disability, on the child or young person's mental health and well-being.

Yes. Okay. I mean, I think I sort of covered it in terms of that schools work very, very hard to make the environment inclusive. I know there are, nevertheless—. Young people are very, very self-aware, and I know an example from a member that I was talking to recently, about a young person who has a disability and was becoming quite frustrated, and quite down about this, and worried about his future and being able to integrate, and have a personal life, shall we say? The school worked very hard to actually source an appropriate mentor and a role model to actually deal with that. So, those are the kinds of things that are going on in schools, to try and break down those barriers that can impact on well-being. We're still in that post-COVID era, and I think some young people, whether with ALN or not, are still struggling with the return to school, albeit that we've been back for quite a while, but the anxieties that have been surrounding that. And I think that is something that schools are aware of and are trying to tackle. So, I don't know if I'm answering your question, or if you wanted to rephrase.

So, what sort of impact do you think it has on educational outcomes?

In terms of outcomes, things like, obviously, if young people are not attending school—whether it's through anxiety, or whatever—then that's going to impact on their outcomes. In school, if it manifests itself in behaviours that prevent them from learning and form barriers to them learning, then obviously that could actually impact on outcomes. But as I say, I think schools are working very hard to try and do what they can to overcome that, but I think it's partly—. COVID has had an impact, and has perhaps enhanced that impact, so I think it's something that is an additional consideration.

We've also heard that children with additional learning needs are disproportionately excluded from schools. What are the most common reasons for this, and what more can be done, and by whom, to reduce instances of formal and informal exclusions?

I think schools, again, work hard to minimise the number of exclusions. I think, unfortunately, where exclusions do happen—. And I know, talking to a head recently about exclusion, what he is experiencing is that, rather than it being pupils within ALN categories as such, it's often those pupils who have those more emotional and behavioural difficulties that, they're finding, are excluded more—so, those who would traditionally, perhaps, be on school action, et cetera, rather than ALN. But I do think, sometimes, that where behaviours, you know, where there are examples of where schools would benefit from more training in terms of particular behaviours, or adaptations to curriculum, those are the things that potentially could cause exclusions to happen, and they could be prevented by more training.

I think it's encouraging to see that Welsh Government have announced this week that they're reviewing the exclusion policy, and looking at the exclusion guidance. So, that will be interesting to see. I think the first publication of that is later this year, isn't it? And alongside that, there will be more behaviour guidance. So, I think that will be helpful for schools. But, obviously, with guidance that comes from Welsh Government, then that has to be taken on board, it has to be assimilated by schools and into their practice, and that takes time. But it is encouraging to see that Welsh Government are recognising that, and actually supporting. But I think, again, it's actually schools having the available resources to deal with it—it's wrapped up in that broader issue.

Okay. Thanks. We've been hearing that, in terms of the ALN reforms, they're not being implemented consistently across Wales. Is that your view, and are you able to give an indication of whether those reforms are having a positive or negative impact on learners?

Obviously, the reforms are extensive, they're huge. Alongside the other reforms of curriculum in education, in my 30-odd years in education it's probably the biggest period of reform that there has been. That in itself is an issue, because it takes time to assimilate the information and to understand it. I think from feedback that I've had, there has been inconsistency and variance in terms of the support that's been on hand, and the way in which consortia have facilitated, perhaps, collaborative working, which obviously enables people to work together to understand. Sorry, can you just repeat the question? I think I'm going a bit off point.

No, that's quite all right. It's just about the consistency of ALN reform implementation across Wales—whether you would agree that those reforms are not being implemented consistently, and whether you think there are clear indications of positive or negative impact of the reforms. Or is it too early?

I think what's emerging from members is that there are positive impacts, but—and we've discussed barriers—the barriers are there. I think it's still—. To use the words 'early days' sounds very superficial, but a transformation of that scale takes a long time to embed, and we're still in that transition phase at the moment. I think where you have got different organisations, different bodies facilitating training, et cetera, there is going to be variance, and I think that is always a danger where there is central guidance, central policy, but the way that that is translated may be slightly different. And the timescales that people are operating in are different because of, potentially, a variance in the available resource. Does that answer your question?

Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Ken. Finally, some questions from Laura Jones.

Thank you. I'd just like to ask you about parental choice. To what extent are parents and children given adequate, accessible information about their choices in education? And how well do you think schools engage with parents of children with additional needs to help the school support the learner? Thanks.

My experience from members and my own experience is that that communication between the learner and the parents is good, it's quite effective, that there are regular communications. In the best practice and a lot of the instances that I'm aware of, a lot of time is spent with the young person actually ensuring that they negotiate, they make the best choices for them in their education, and that the barriers to those choices are minimised. I think, again, the schools do their very best to accommodate all pupils and to accommodate those pupils who have specific needs. There are instances where I know members have looked beyond their own school to look at provision that may enhance what can be offered in school. I know in Cardiff there's an agency called Vision 21, historically. But to look at provision that is more bespoke, look at courses that are more bespoke for those working in young groups. So, I think where the resources are available, schools are very embracing of looking for alternative solutions that actually will produce the best outcomes for the learners.

Thank you. The picture that we've been getting from the evidence that has come to light for us is that the majority have said that the information provided is complex, confusing, non-existent, so it's a completely different picture to what you've just outlined, which is interesting. Would you think that that, in part, is down to the fact that there are 22 local authorities interpreting how to do it and doing it in a different way, basically? We see every school has a different way of reaching out to parents as well in terms of the educational booklets they might provide, or don't provide at all. There doesn't seem to be any consistency. Would you recognise that?

No. That's the very short answer. I am surprised, in a way, to hear that, or maybe perhaps I'm a little bit naive about that, and that is very interesting. It's something I shall go away and perhaps do a bit of investigation around. But I think that's really all I can say, because I think that evidence conflicts with my general understanding, talking to members, and from my own experience.

Okay. As a parent, that's something I certainly recognise myself, and I would concur with the evidence that I've received as opposed to what you've said. So perhaps it would be worth pursuing, for sure.

In terms of school admissions, to what extent are families and learners able to access their chosen provision, or do you think this is predicated by the accessibility of the premises or the resources in that particular school?

I probably have touched on this in a previous answer, but obviously pupils have the right to request a school. I think my experience is that that becomes a joint process between the parent, the learner and the school. However, that might not be the case in all cases. Once a preference has been stated, the parent could work with the school to actually see what the school can provide, to make sure that it is the best possible environment.

I think there are going to be issues that I've already discussed in terms of the physical make-up of a school building, in terms of the barriers that that presents in terms of accessibility, and then it all goes back to the issue of funding that I've talked about, and then having the available resources and teachers or people with the right experience and the right training to be able to accommodate those learners.

I don't think, to my knowledge, any of my members would turn round and point-blank say 'no', but obviously there would be issues that would need to be discussed and potentially overcome in a timely way to make the education the best it possibly could be for the young person.

Thank you. To what extent are children and young people able to access specialist education provision at a specialist school or resource base without delay and in their own community?

My evidence suggests that this varies depending on where it is, that it can sometimes be more timely than others. It depends on the type of provision that is required. It isn't always readily available and there can be delays due to a lack of resources.

Are there any particular issues that you've come across with families with children with additional learning needs who wish to access Welsh-medium education, particularly in the secondary sector?

It's not anything that I have come across in my experience that a member has actually raised. I can't say that it hasn't happened, but in my experience, I can't provide any information, unfortunately, on that.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Brilliant, thank you. And that's the end of our evidence session today. Sorry we've gone over a little bit on time here, but diolch yn fawr—thank you for joining us. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in due course. Once again, thank you for your time today.

No problem at all. Thank you very much.

We'll now break for a couple of minutes just to bring our next witnesses in. We'll go into private session.

Croeso nôl. Welcome back. We have our tenth evidence session on our inquiry with our panel this morning. Thank you very much for joining us. We have Mary van den Heuvel, senior policy officer Wales for the National Education Union. We have Mike O’Neill, NEU organising forum member and NEU representative for Merthyr. We have Ioan Rhys Jones, general secretary for Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru; and Urtha Felda, policy and casework official for the NASUWT. Thank you very much, again, for joining us. We do appreciate your time today.

Members have a number of questions to put you, so we'll go straight into those. I'll start with a general question around the extent of the issue. To what extent are children and young people with additional needs able to access all areas of education, including extra-curricular activities? Do you think the school estate is fully accessible for learners? Do you have any ideas about how to improve that? So, a big general question to start with. I don't know who'd like to start. Urtha.

That's a huge general question, but it does start the conversation, doesn't it? I think, in terms of inclusion, we have to look at the different ways that children with different learning needs can be excluded, and that can be because they don't have a full individual development plan; they don't have the staff to support them. It can be that they've not been assessed, that they haven't got specialist staff from health to support them. And it can be that the situation gets to be so difficult, they choose not to attend because depression, sadness, et cetera, can make it hard to be in school. But also, they could not be in school six hours a day, because they've got appointments or—. So, there are lots of different ways that children can be excluded. The ultimate thing is, actually, exclusion. Children have reported to ALNCOs—they use the word 'unfair', because they feel not included in activities and not included in trips. So, the extent is—. We don't have statistics on it, which is a real problem, but we can describe those different situations that happen, which fall largely, at the end of the day, on the fact that there is not enough staff to fulfil the IDPs that are written. The IDPs, when they are written, they often come back with less funding than asked for. But, at the end of the day, there is not the hours in the school to give the children support, whether that's support to access education that day, in that lesson, or access a quiet room to take their medication or access school trips. At the moment, we just do not have enough staff and, of course, a lot of that goes down to funding, at the end of the day. So, I could go on and say more, but I'll obviously give space to my colleagues sat here as well. Thank you.

I think we'll come on to some detailed questions as well. So, Mike.

Yes. Thanks. On the point around the IDP writing process, many members are explaining to us just the sheer length of time that it takes to actually complete an IDP—up to seven hours in some cases that we've heard. And also, the people, the experts that are completing those IDPs, are then spending time on paperwork rather than on the interventions that they're best placed to be offering. So, the actual paperwork exercise is really onerous for many of our members.

Okay, thank you. And just to say, you don't have to press any buttons on the microphones; they'll be fine. Ioan, did you want to come in?

Ie. So, dwi am wneud sylwadau cychwynnol yn y Gymraeg, beth bynnag. Diolch. Rydym ni wedi clywed o safbwynt y plant, ac mae hynny'n allweddol bwysig o safbwynt y teuluoedd, ond yr hyn rydym ni'n ei glywed gan ein haelodau ni ydy bod yna rwystredigaeth fawr, fel rydych chi wedi'i glywed sawl gwaith yn barod, dwi'n siŵr, o ran diffygion capasiti, diffygion cyllid, diffygion hyfforddiant, diffygion staff, a diffygion o ran amodau. Rŵan te, mae yna gwestiynau'n codi am y ddarpariaeth sydd yn cael ei chynnig gan yr awdurdodau, ac mae cwestiynau mawr yn codi wedyn o ran cysondeb o ran yr awdurdodau, ac o ran gallu'r awdurdodau, boed hynny'n ddewisol neu beidio, i ddarparu ar gyfer yr holl anghenion ac o ran yr arbenigedd yn ogystal.

Rydym ni'n croesawu, fel undeb, fel y buasech chi'n ei feddwl, symud y Llywodraeth tuag at weithgor i edrych ar anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn y Gymraeg a chael swyddfa genedlaethol, ond y gwir plaen amdani ydy, mae angen inni sicrhau bod yna fwy o gefnogaeth ar lefel genedlaethol yn hytrach na'r awdurdodau, a'n bod ni'n symud tuag at hynny, gan ganiatáu hynny, a grymuso'r Llywodraeth yn hyn o beth.

O'm safbwynt i, lle mae ein haelodau ni un ai yn yr ardaloedd gwledig hynny yn y gorllewin neu mewn ardaloedd trefol lle mae'r Saesneg yn brif gyfrwng i'r awdurdodau, mae yna rwystredigaeth fawr o ran y ddarpariaeth yn y Gymraeg a'r gefnogaeth sydd yna i ysgolion, ac felly i'r plant yn ogystal. Felly, mae hwnna'n rhywbeth dwi'n siŵr y gwnawn ni droi nôl ato fo yn nes ymlaen.

Absolutely. I'll just bring Mary in and then we'll move on.

Thank you, Chair. I firstly want to declare an interest as a member of the Wales committee for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, for the record.

From a National Education Union perspective, I think the thing that I really want to get across this morning is that recruitment and retention of our additional learning needs co-ordinators is really important, and that there's access to training for those ALN co-ordinators who need it, in terms of specialist training to complete IDPs. We think about recruitment and retention, and we think about training for universal provision, but we need—. Nobody enters that kind of role unless they're really, really keen on supporting disabled children and young people, children with additional learning needs. And I think there's that passion there, and I think it's really important that we capture that, but say that they need help and support, and that the system is crying out for change at the moment.

Thank you, Mary. We'll move on to questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd. Diolch i chi am fod efo ni heddiw. Rydyn ni wedi clywed yn ystod yr ymchwiliad yma'n barod ynglŷn â rhwystrau o ran darpariaeth addysg gwbl gynhwysol—peth gan athrawon wrth inni ymweld, ond hefyd gan rieni a gofalwyr, ac ati. Beth ydych chi'n credu ydy'r rhwystrau o ran darparu addysg gwbl gynhwysol ar y funud, a beth arall ydych chi'n meddwl y gellid ei wneud i oresgyn rhwystrau, ac, yn fwy na dim, pwy ddylai fod yn gyfrifol?

Diolch yn fawr. I think that it's really important to understand two aspects of it, because there's children's experience every day, which might be large halls, long ways to walk, can't get a lift—so, there all those kinds of general experiences every day—and of course, there's a massive amount of work that needs to be done on that, as well as in relation to other pupils' attitudes around being in school with children with different abilities—a massive amount of work to be done on that. So, all of those things can lead to children feeling excluded.

But there are specifically system issues in relation to the new ALN proposals, and I think there's a strong difference in who is in the category of ALN and who isn't. Who is placed on universal provision is creating a huge impact in school. And basically, there is no funding to support that. Ioan has already mentioned the need for training, but teachers in a classroom, who have a class of 30 children and, I don't know, maybe five of them have got additional learning needs, they don't have an extra teaching assistant in that classroom, and they are required to understand the pedagogical needs of each child in that classroom. Resources for each specific condition need to be prepared, and the teacher needs to be trained to use them. So, these are really specific things. They've still got 30 children in that class. So, I think, looking at the system issues around what is or is not available, it is a real holistic thing that needs looking at. But equally, something as small as—it reflects on staff numbers again—reducing class sizes could be a thing that would enable a teacher maybe to work with 20 or 22 children, some of whom have got ALN needs, and they would have a bit more space.

But one of the things about training, the feedback that we're getting from ALNCOs is that it's not specific enough. There are so many different conditions, teachers need specific advice, specific support, specific resources. And one of the recommendations from an ALNCO has come forward that, really, each school needs to have access to a specialist educational psychologist, to speech and language therapy, et cetera, so that occupational therapists have a responsibility for certain schools in their areas, and there is easy accessibility there.

Again, there is lots more I could say, but I will pause there, in favour of making space for my colleagues.

Thank you. I'm glad you paused there, because you were literally coming on to the things that I was going to mention. But the point around access to specialist services is really key. You will all be familiar with the wait for things like child and adolescent mental health services; I don't think that's going to be knowledge to anybody. But there's also speech and language therapy, behaviour support, support for English as an additional language.

You may or may not be aware of various petitions and surveys and so on from parent groups, that talk around feeling the need for elective home education because they feel that their son or daughter's disability perhaps hasn't been catered for. And none of those things, I don't feel that those reflect on teachers; I feel that they're actually saying that the system isn't quite where it needs to be, and they feel a desperation, really. I've spoken to parents who have said to me, 'Mike, I have no choice but to do this myself.' They don't want to, but they feel they need to. We believe a qualified professional should be in front of every young person. You certainly shouldn't be making that choice as a parent out of desperation. If you make it for different reasons, that's a different debate, but on an education issue because you feel the service isn't there, that's quite worrying, and as a society I think we really should look at that.

On the point around catering for physical disabilities, there's been a number of, obviously, new builds—the twenty-first century schools programme—and that's to be commended. We've had two or three in my own local authority. But that's relatively more straightforward to cater for. Actually, many of the demands on services are around invisible disabilities, hidden disabilities that are far harder to identify.

I'll bring Mary in.

Thanks, Chair. I think from a system point of view, Heledd, there are a lot of issues that are implicit within the ALN system that are causing some of the issues that we've highlighted today. So, implicitly, the ALNCO, on behalf of the school, has a duty to make a decision about whether a child has additional learning needs and what their additional learning provision should be. Regardless of whether they've got the access to all the information from health, local authorities and specialist services, they have a duty to make that decision anyway. So, that's something that we could consider in terms of independent assessment arrangements, which could be something that could be looked at, because, actually, at the moment, that's not really working. And we've also seen a drop-off in the number of children and young people who've been identified as having an additional learning need when we've moved from the old system to the new system. So, within that, ALNCOs tell us that they've been encouraged not to identify those children particularly with—I'm going to get the acronym wrong, Mike—

School action and school action plus.

School action and school action plus children have not necessarily been identified as having an additional learning need, and needing an IDP. And whilst—

Sorry. Can I just stop you? Who's encouraging them not to? Is that coming from headteachers because of resources, or local authorities?

So, ALNCOs have said to us that that's part of the system and identification in terms of the transitional leads, that the definition has changed slightly. And so, in encouraging children who were previously identified as school action or school action plus to not necessarily have an additional learning need, that's great, isn't it? If the system works, it could work really well. If we had all the money, all the teachers, all the resources and all the access to specialist services, and everyone had been trained in universal provision, that could be a really positive approach, but we're not in that situation. And so, if we haven't got access to all of those things, we need to ensure that those children are still captured.

So, basically, if we aren't catching those children at all through the IDP process because they're not meeting that threshold for having an additional learning need, they're still in the system, but the system doesn't recognise them as having any needs at all. So, do we get to the end of school and wonder why there's an increased number of children who aren't potentially doing so well? Do we have an increased number of children who, as Mike said, are choosing elective home education because the system's not recognising them? We've got issues in terms of attendance and behaviour, and members tell us that those are partly because of unmet needs. And so, you can't meet all of the needs if you haven't got the funding and the training to do so, and the support in place. So, I just want to get that across.

Thanks, Mary. I'll bring James in.

I'm just interested—. We've heard evidence this morning from senior leadership in local authorities and wider that the system's working fine. But what I tend to find is when I go and speak to headteachers directly, their professional opinions and ALN co-ordinators' professional opinions are not being taken into account by the local education departments in county halls, for example. They're saying, 'No, no, there's nothing wrong with this child; you just need to manage it within your current budget within the existing frameworks that you have in school.' Is that something that you're experiencing with your members, because that’s something that I’m getting, and, from evidence this morning, we see that some people just seem to think, 'Listen, there's not a problem'?

So, there are some systemic issues with the way in which the legislation works that mean that a local authority can pass a decision back to the school and say, 'Actually, no—get on with it', and, of course, schools aren't subject to tribunals, but local authorities are. So, in order to challenge those decisions, it would rely on somebody taking the local authority to tribunal, and that's obviously quite an adversarial system that I don't think anybody with a disabled child, or a school—. That’s extra effort and energy, and if you’re looking after a disabled child, it's going to be a challenge already, probably, for many people. So, it’s implicit in the system.

I think we'll find there are problems where ALNCOs and maybe headteachers can voice their views and their experience. So, for example, we recently, as unions, were invited to speak at the all-Wales national ALN steering group, and we learned about lots of plans through being in attendance at the meeting, plans that would affect ALNCOs, but ALNCOs were not involved. So, there were future co-ordinations going on between local authorities and the new designated education clinical lead officers, but ALNCOs were not involved in that, which obviously—. Why isn't that happening? I raised that question and somebody said they would get back to me. I haven’t heard from anybody.

And it’s the same when the local authorities meet with the DECLOs in their own territory. Again, the ALNCOs are not involved, there’s no information going out to the ALNCOs about what is happening, so in terms of where there’s space for the voice of ALNCOs, I think it’s quite short. I remember meeting an ALNCO in the north who was telling me that, although she went to these cluster groups and she voiced her issues with the software system that calculated the hours needed for a teaching assistant, the payment didn’t come through until after the need had taken place. But she just was not taken notice of, and that is the information I’m getting back about where can ALNCOs voice—. Obviously, that’s why they come to us. And again, to reiterate, it’s not that staff on the ground don’t see the value in this, because obviously every child that needs an individual development plan—having one—is really, really important, but the fact that this universal group, as I think we’ve all referred to, don't have any support, no funding attached to them, creates a huge barrier and quite a lot of emotional stress for teachers. So, one solution that one ALNCO suggested was that that group on universal provision should have short-term IDPs to actually identify what their needs are, get those services in place, identify the funding, the cost and the physical bodies needed to actually provide that. But without that—. Remember also, for example, that dyslexia and dyspraxia support from local authorities has been closed down, so that kind of in-school practical support from specialists has also gone. But, I don’t think they’re heard, to be honest.

I'll bring Ioan in here.

The structural issues have been well thought out here, but I’d like to go back to a theme that I’m sure you’ve heard many, many times before, which is the inconsistency we’re seeing from school to school, from authority to authority. It’s just not good enough. Now, I’m aware that we’re in the implementation stage, but we’re in a situation where families and children feel as though they’re not being listened to, that they’re not a part of the pathway. Moving forward, teachers have only got so much capacity, and one does have to question the direction of local authorities in this case—going back to your question—and in a general manner, perhaps, we need to look at what specialised services there are. It’s inconsistent, as I say, from authority to authority, from school to school. There is a lack of expertise there. I said I’d be returning to this theme again. I was in discussions with a member in a Welsh-medium school in the east—let’s just put it like that—and obviously a major concern of mine, and a major concern of yours as well, I’m sure, is that there was no support at all as far as the speech and language service was concerned, and the ed-psych, senses, ADHD, ASD—no support at all in Welsh, and then you’ve got a situation where parents are asking, ‘Where are we going from here? Why can’t the authorities provide this service?’ Various points have been made previously to this committee that people have chosen to send their children to English-medium education because they can't cope with an additional language. I think that's absolute rubbish as far as pedagogy is concerned, but what we don't have is the consistent services available to all. And if the local authorities can't provide that, then we need to look at another model.

James Evans.

We've heard through evidence that children with additional needs are experiencing bullying in schools. Do you think schools have got enough support and the advice given to them to actually support those pupils who are being bullied in our schools who have additional needs? I'm just interested in your views on that and whether that's what you've been fed back from members.

Urtha.

I think what I'm hearing is that people are not using the word 'bullying' regularly in relation to the experiences that ALN children go through. It's almost, in a way, [correction: It's almost that the pupils say,] 'Well, you know, what can you expect? Of course you'd expect to be left out or to be ignored, or perhaps somebody is going to snigger behind you or you might get blamed because this group isn't receiving a certificate for 100 per cent attendance.' So, they don't use the word 'bullying', but they do describe those experiences that make children living with ALN experience sadness, experience depression, experience low energy, need to continue to self-isolate and, perhaps, increasingly use social media as a way of having some sort of contact with the outside world. So, from the teachers that I have spoken with, those are the responses that come back. So, from that comes an understanding, I feel, that, in terms of classroom management, it's too big. If there is responsibility for universal provision, as I've said before, we need to be looking at smaller classes. So, there is a need for a different class management, but there's definitely a need to look at pupil awareness and understanding how you live with different people, different people have got different needs, different people have got different cultures, et cetera, et cetera. So, often, for the teachers I've spoken to, it's not named as bullying; it is bullying, but maybe because it's not named, those kind of bullying strategies don't kick in. Thank you.

Thank you.

I was just going to say that NEU has a range of resources for accessibility in terms of disabled children in the classroom and countering any ableist approaches, so I'm happy to share those with the committee.

Thank you. Mike, did you want to come in?

Yes, please. Thank you. I think it's a really good question, actually, but I would approach it from a slightly different angle in the sense that, for me, I think some of the bullying behaviour is a symptom of behaviour that challenges and the rise in behaviour that challenges that we're seeing. So, that's not to excuse any bullying, but I think there's more of an underlying issue here around young people's understanding of appropriate behaviour post COVID. I think much was lost in terms of the socialisation skills, if you like, that perhaps they missed out on. So, for me, it's more or less a symptom, then, if you like, of a greater challenge that we face as a society, and schools are very much a microcosm of society. So, I think really, for me, this says that more resources are needed within school in order to cater for people that exhibit behaviour that challenges and inappropriate conduct, et cetera. That's telling us that there is something in the system that needs improving and needs tackling.

James.

One area that I think was touched on earlier was extra-curricular activities, as well. What we're seeing and hearing is that school transport is sometimes a barrier for pupils who have got a disability, a learning disability or are neurodivergent in actually accessing those extra-curricular activities. So, I'd just like to know what your views are a bit further perhaps on that, and what you think we could actually do to try and address some of these issues as well.

Ioan.

And all the others.

I think extra-curricular activities are even more of a problem than school transport. And, obviously, as far as those are out-of-school hours, it becomes the responsibility of the school, and providing that service is an issue. Generally, there are issues, of course, but I think what we're receiving from our members is that door-to-door-to-school is not that much of a problem, but trying to be inclusive in other ways becomes a further problem. Obviously, there are extra-curricular activities that are geared towards those with additional learning needs, and they can be very, very successful. However, it's not necessarily an inclusive picture in that respect.

Urtha.

I would just add that the issues are worse in rural areas. I'm sure that you'll be aware of that. And then the other side of that is: how do you find out what is available? If it's not on school premises, where do you go? How do you find out? And remembering, again, that sometimes, for example, with neurodiverse children, their family may also be neurodiverse, so there are all those issues of accessing information, knowing where to go and knowing what the rules are and how you navigate all that information. That is a barrier—the information barrier.

Absolutely. Mary.

Of course there are barriers and it's looking at what the responsibility of the school is. But there are also barriers—. We do know that, in terms of disabled children, accessing the right support and benefits more widely is obviously going to be an issue too—so, you know, the support for those through things like disability living allowance or personal independence payments. It's really important to look at the situation in the round, and we know that disabled families are more likely to be on a low income, and some of that will be because they have got a disabled child, and having a disabled person in the family obviously costs more money. So, it's quite a round picture, but it's problematic on many levels. And yes, of course, we know that schools are trying really hard to make as much as possible accessible, but I wouldn't want to say that it's a truly child-centred approach that we've got at the moment, because the funding isn't there.

Thanks, Mary. James.

Actually, on funding, that leads me on to my final question. I raised it in the previous session when taking evidence. When we ask questions on delivery of the Act and making schools inclusive and making sure that people with an ALN or a disability get additional funding, the Minister always tells us that funding is available and that there should be no problems with schools accessing levels of funding. The Minister has said that on the record plenty of times. I go around then and talk to schools and schools say that the money isn't coming from the local authorities to the schools when they ask for it for that support, and then I go to local authorities and they say, 'Oh, we haven't got any money, it's not coming from the Welsh Government.' But if the Minister's saying that there's money available and that it shouldn't be a problem, and the local authorities and schools are saying that they're not getting money from Government, someone's being economical with the truth somewhere about how money is coming through. So, I'd like to know your views on where you think, if there is money coming, it is getting stuck, or if there is actually any money coming at all from Government, or if it's all just warm words from the Minister around delivery of these aims that they've got.

Let's start with Urtha.

I've also heard the Minister say that there are enough staff in education to provide both the Curriculum for Wales and ALN. There are huge issues with funding. Really strongly, and I can't emphasise this enough, to begin with, the ALN future was not assessed. If I write a project bid to the Welsh Government, I have to write what I'm delivering, how many staff hours I need, how many staff I need and how much that is going to cost. So, none of that happened and, as far as I know, that still hasn't happened. And without actually looking at all the needs—the individual development plan needs and the ALN needs as well as the universal needs, teacher training and all the rest of it—how do we know that the funding that has been made available will cover all those staff hours? And staff hours are crucial in this. So, I think that's really, really important to understand—that we haven't got a calculation on that.

The second thing is that (1) local authorities won't share their funding formulas, and (2) we know that they're different across the regions. So, if you've got the power, James, to ask the local authorities to share their funding formulas and let us all know, that could really help answer some questions, to be honest with you.

I'm sure we could write as a committee to the local authorities.

Thank you.

We could. That's a good suggestion. Ioan, you wanted to come in.

This goes to the heart of the biggest problem in education, perhaps, which is the funding fog that's there generally—you know, the middle tier, and there's a governmental review into the middle tier. But, what we're seeing is that it isn't clear; we have to go and ask 22 different authorities what exactly is going on. I don't need to go into any more specifics than that, really. It is very frustrating. It's frustrating as far as teachers' pay is concerned as well. So, we need to look at a different model, and I keep coming back to that theme, but we have not got any clarity as far as where that funding goes, and if there is funding—sufficient funding—in place, what we do know is that, in the schools, it's not sufficient.

James, do you want to come in?

No, I'm finished. I'll be honest with you, I just want to thank you, because that's what I'm hearing and what I heard earlier in evidence was that everything's fine—from educational leaders, perhaps. So, it's good to hear you say that. Thank you.

Thanks, James. Questions now from Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. I'm going to ask a few questions about impact, if I may, beginning with what you view the impact being of discrimination due to disability on a young person's mental health and well-being.

That is also a big question. So, the first thing I would say is that in school at the moment we don't have a way to measure that. There isn't a tool that's universally applied to measure the impact on a pupil's mental health and well-being, because there are other children, obviously. We know that schools' funding has not been able to cover programmes they previously ran, for example, Thrive. We do know, obviously, from different education psychology reports that come through, about the descriptions of impact, and it definitely relates to a failure to achieve full potential. It can lead to huge isolation, increased difficulties in communication. The worst case scenario is it can lead to things like homelessness in adult life and things like involvement in the criminal justice system. So, there can be a huge impact, but actually we don't have any measurements on how would we count that to in any way help any future planning. So, that is a problem at the moment. Thank you.

Mary.

I was just going to add that, in order to know for the future the impact of that, I think it's really important that we are capturing all of those children who, if they haven't been identified as having an additional learning need now, could potentially have an additional learning need without extra support. So, what I mean is your school action, school action plus children again: how are we capturing those children and making sure that that cohort is not potentially over-represented within the group of children who are having to access, or can't access, support from CAMHS et cetera?

Okay. Mike.

Thank you. Sorry to come back to behaviour, again, but I run alternative provision, hence why it's a little bit of a hobby-horse. For me, often, the behaviour is the physical demonstration, really, of an unmet need, and you'll have heard those sorts of phrases before, but I think they're absolutely true. The rise in the need for EOTAS provision—educated other than at school—I don't think we've seen a busier time in this sector, probably ever. Many of our pupil referral units are full. There's a significant number that are in difficulty in terms of Estyn. Local authorities and schools are struggling to find alternative pathways and alternative options for young people. Many local authorities talk about, and our members within the schools in the authorities talk about, things like the old 14-19 pathways and these sorts of things finishing. What we would have termed years ago as the slightly more technical options, if you like, are now not there. So, I think that's evidence of impact as well, because we don't have the alternative options in as good a quality or as good a number as we might have had in the past.

Ken.

Yes. Thank you. We've heard that children with additional learning needs are disproportionately excluded from schools. Can you give your view on the reasons for this and what more can be done by whom to reduce both formal and informal exclusions?

Who'd start? Mike.

That's, again, a really good question, and 'How long have you got?', probably, is the answer, I would expect. It probably is fair to say that those with a disability are disproportionately affected, yes, but, again, coming back to a lack of funding in school, a lack of training for staff, how can schools put in appropriate provision in order to prevent exclusions if they don't necessarily have the funding to be able to do it? So, I think there are a number of issues there around post COVID—I know that's often said, but I do think that that has had a huge, huge impact on young people. The services that we've needed, those alternative options that I've mentioned, aren't necessarily there, and, because those options aren't necessarily there, mainstream is sometimes the only option. Now, if mainstream is the only option for a young person and yet mainstream isn't suitable, then it's probably no surprise then that, sometimes, sadly, regrettably, there's a rise in exclusions. So, again, it comes back to: are there appropriate options for young people, is there appropriate funding within the system, does school need to look the same for every young person? If somebody is neurodivergent, then I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some adjustments, to look at different courses and options and so on. But, without funding, it's very difficult for schools to be able to find those alternative pathways.

I'll bring Mary in and then Urtha. Mary.

So, I was just going to add to what Mike said in terms of the post-COVID context. During COVID, we've seen many families with disabled children where they've been afraid to send their children to school because of COVID, and before we had a vaccine, obviously, we were in a different situation. Some of those children won't have come back to school because they might have found learning at home better—'better'—or that their needs were able to be met by—. In that, you know, as Mike said, if they had some kind of neurodivergence or something, they weren't being able to access education properly within school. But also, are we truly sure that all of our school buildings have good ventilation systems in place, so that health and safety is maintained for those staff and students who might have additional needs or medical issues, which makes it easier to go to school? So, it's a really complex issue, but we do know that it is the case, and we know from the research that Meilyr Rowlands did previously that it is absolutely the case that disabled children or children identified as having a special educational need were more likely to be absent from school.

Urtha.

Thank you. I think, as I said at the beginning, that exclusion comes in a variety of forms, because a child could exclude themselves to manage their medical needs—that could happen—or they could arrive in school not ready to learn, so then they're excluded on that level. They could actually be in a classroom but not take part in the activity because of the physical barriers due to their condition. So, there are a whole range of issues there that, kind of going further along, if children are not happy in school and not supported, it can lead to self-exclusion, and then at the very extreme, of course, children can be excluded. But those last two categories absolutely rely on staff in the classroom, and all of the ALNCOs I speak with, they cry out for more teaching assistants, and I'm sure you're aware of the debate going on across the nation at the moment about TA pay et cetera and retention of teaching assistants—really, really important. So, again, a member I was speaking within north Wales was describing a situation where her school was taking on pupils who really were outside the capacity of the school, but they still took them on. The risk assessment would identify 2:1, sometimes 3:1; staff were not there to manage that, so, of course, that leads to increasing difficulties for children, for staff and for parents. And again, if the risk assessment is there that states that that support should be in place, it is absolutely the lack of physical staff bodies in the classroom and the funding to support it that leads to that child not being able to attend. Thank you.

Absolutely. Ken.

Thank you. Just finally from me, Chair, a question about ALN reforms. Would you agree that they are being implemented on an inconsistent basis across Wales, and do you think they're having, so far, a positive or negative impact on learners, or is it just too soon to tell?

Ioan.

Obviously, I referred to this briefly earlier. There is inconsistency, obviously. To be fair, we're still at the implementation stage, and it's probably too soon to tell, but all evidence suggests that we're in a situation that the consistency isn't there; the consistency that we'd wish to see is not to be seen. Now, that doesn't mean that schools aren’t doing their utmost to achieve their goals, and I think the support at local levels in schools—you know, teachers are striving as best they can with the facilities they have and with the staffing they have. Yes, there's a lead officer in every authority, yes, the paperwork seems to be in place, but we want to see the practicalities bear fruit here, and I think more time and more investment is needed to ensure success.

Mary.

So, yes, there are inconsistencies across Wales, but the implementation—. And, yes, we are in the implementation period, but I can't see anything that suggests that, when we get to the end of the implementation period, many of the issues that we're seeing now won't be still in place. Because the Act itself, or the code, passes the responsibility down to the school from the local authorities to decide whether a child has an additional learning need and what their additional learning provision should be. So, that's in there, in the legislation. And so, even when we have fully implemented the Act, that's an additional workload for the school, and that's an additional struggle in terms of the school accessing resources from the local authority.

Urtha.

Thank you. I think there are different strands to this. So, as Ioan has explained, we're all aware that there are inconsistencies across local authorities, but we also have issues of inconsistencies within the Act itself, particularly around section 20 and who can access referrals to health. So, that in itself creates inconsistencies and illogicalities. But the third inconsistency is around health. I'm fully aware that there are systemic issues in health about service provision, whether that is that people work part time or people might be off ill. The request for services has hugely increased so that the services are not there—we know that. But the IDP—there is a statutory duty on health to work in partnership, there is not a statutory duty on health to fulfil the IDP, and that is an inconsistency within the legislation that also means that the burden keeps falling back on the schools. So, there are inconsistencies across the piece, basically. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Ken. We'll move on to some questions now, finally, from Laura Jones.

Yes, thank you, Chair. Yes, firstly, how reassuring it is to hear you all recognising what we've seen from our previous evidence—not today, unfortunately, but previous evidence that we've had to the committee and from our own school visits around Wales—inconsistency across the 22 local authorities, the different interpretations of the ALN code by the 22 local authorities, the different transport issues as well and how they deal with it across the 22 local authorities. There is a myriad of issues that all come together, really, and they're not seen in that holistic approach that you said, like the steering committee—which, funnily enough, I was just reading the minutes of when you started talking about it—and how, actually, the right people aren't involved on that, are they, which in itself is worrying, but not actually surprising considering the last evidence that we just heard before you, where, I'm going to be blunt, the WLGA didn't have a clue about what was going on, let's put it that way. And I find that really, really concerning.

In terms of choices—that's the section I'm asking you about today—'choice' is an interesting word in itself and I don't think it comes in parallel to ALN at all really, does it? How much choice do you actually think there is for parents and children about where they think that their child could be best educated?

Ioan.

Well, yes, you've heard already today, I'm sure, about transportation issues regarding choice and the lack of transportation to the most relevant schools for the various pupils, various children. It's quite clear, I think, in each local area, that there is one school geared to support the children, whether that is planned or not. Things such as school estates come into the question, the specialism within the school and the specialism that they can access easily, the number of pupils. Obviously, the larger the school, the easier it is, in some ways, to access further provision, although we've heard already about class sizes. But I'm aware, I'm sure my colleagues here are aware, of many instances where children have had to move schools in order to facilitate being part of a wider educational community. Now, I live in the north-east of Wales and there is a number of examples I could provide, anecdotally, of children having to move schools and having issues getting the service they provide. Again, it affects Welsh-medium education perhaps more so, in as much as provision for those who are deaf, provision for those who have various ADHD challenges, is not available in the Welsh-medium schools, and they have had to—. In spite of the fact that we're a bilingual country, the choice has been taken away from them. And so that is very concerning to our members. I'm sure you've heard stories from families that schools have turned around and said, 'Well, we'd like to accommodate you, but we can't', or, 'Well, the schools weren't very welcoming to us.' Well, there is an issue with the provision available in the individual schools. So, it is a major concern for our members that pupils, children, aren't able to access their choice of education, boed hynny—be that—linguistically or choice of setting. So, it's a major concern as far as we're concerned.

Thank you. Urtha.

Thank you. There are two particular aspects I wanted to make reference to. One is to consider what are the ills that we're trying to solve, and ultimately we want to raise in our communities strong independent adults. And if you look at post school, what do children with ALN needs do post school? The feedback that I've been having from the ALNCOs is that they don't realise until they've left school, and are perhaps getting support from the voluntary sector, that their expectations can be higher, that they can do more having left school, which is ultimately where we want to be. So, I think the choices in school are definitely putting a box, a limitation, on the expectations, on the visions that the young people are going to be having for their own future, and they're not finding until they've left school, with other support, that they can actually do more than was originally planned.

The other aspect I wanted to mention in terms of choices in school—. Obviously, there's a really strong emphasis on communication, which is going to be largely verbal or written, and there are occasions when, actually, digital would really help. So, something as basic as that can widen up a pupil's choices about how much they can engage with a particular lesson—for example, if you're dyslexic and it speaks back to you through headphones. Sometimes it can be a fairly simple solution to support the choice around their learning. Thank you.

Mike.

Thank you. I suppose choice is only really a relevant question if there is actually a choice, and unfortunately sometimes there isn't a choice because there's a lack of appropriate provision anyway. At its most extreme, if a young person is not able to access school and a local authority is forced, then, to look for out-of-county placements, those are incredibly expensive. Whether they're residential or whether they're just day placements, they're incredibly expensive. It's even more difficult for rural areas, but even in our towns and cities, actually—. As I said, I'm mostly based in Merthyr Tydfil, and although that is a relatively large town, there isn't a great deal, if any at all, of certain types of provision, so you'd have to go out of county. And that'll be the same for many, and those are incredibly expensive. So, yes, I take the point about choice, but there isn't a great deal of choice really in the system anyway.

Laura.

Absolutely not, unfortunately. Are you recognising what, from evidence, we've seen, that because of the lack of places in special schools, there are greater—high—levels of ALN going into mainstream education, which of course exacerbates the problem that we already have? And then, going back to the transport stuff, the lack of transport is a problem, yes, but also the funding is not following the child. As you just alluded to, Mike, it is expensive, but as soon as that parental choice comes into it, then the local authorities are not statutorily—I can't think of the word—

Obliged.

Obliged. Thank you. They're not obliged to pay for that transport. And of course, that cost to a family is astronomical and unjust, in my opinion. Is that something that you recognise as a barrier, and taking away the choice element?

Who wants to go for that? Ioan? [Interruption.] Oh, sorry.

Transport is definitely a barrier. We hear about that a lot. It's interesting, in other work I've done where health needs rely on transport, this issue comes up time and time again. It's quite difficult to get it included when people are assessed for different needs, the amount of transport they need. So, for a child or a teenager to access social activities outside school, in the evening, obviously they need extra transport there, they need a person to go with them. All of that is about choice and living and becoming an adult, et cetera. The funding for that is just not available. Also, the transport isn't. We've had huge issues in north Wales around accessible transport anyway. There just isn't enough of it.

Yes, and because of the lack of need, there are families where there are four children, for example—and one family that I know—going to different schools, and everything that goes around that, which is awful.

In terms of choice for parents, going back to that, what do you think of the information that's being given out at the moment to parents, in terms of what choices they actually have and what information is available in case that child has specific needs, what route they should go down and what are the avenues that they should be made aware of as a parent, in terms of the school as well and how individual schools deal with it? Obviously, again, the consistency is not going to be there. Some will be great at it; some won't be. What are your experiences in those regards?

Mary.

There will be inconsistencies in that. I think schools are trying their best at this point. Within the context that we first talked about, we're reforming additional learning needs or special educational needs education as it was since 2008, and so there's a lot of expectation built up in the system that we were going to change things and things would be better. I think it's really important that, actually, schools are supported to ensure that they're able to deliver that information, because information is really critical, isn't it, and we know that sometimes it's not just a disabled child who is struggling to access that information, but it could be their family members, parents and carers as well.

Okay. I think we've come over our time, but thank you very much for your time today and your evidence that you've given us, and also thank you very much for your joint paper that you provided to the committee beforehand. That was really helpful to us, so diolch yn fawr. You will be sent a transcript for factual accuracy as well, in the coming weeks, so please check that, but again, thank you for the evidence you've provided. Diolch.

We'll just move on to the next item on our agenda, which is our papers to note. Again, we have a number of papers to note—I think 14 in total. They're set out in the agenda and the paper pack. Are Members content to note those together? I can see Members are. That is great.

We will now move into private, so I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting, so we will now proceed to meet in private.