Equality and Social Justice Committee

Can I now move that, under Standing Order 17.42, we exclude the public for items 4 and 7 of today's meeting? So, we will be resuming the public session at 13:30, when we are going to be interviewing the Minister for education on this important subject of gender-based violence.

We are now continuing with the public health approach to preventing gender-based violence, and, in evidence session 9, I'm very happy to welcome Jeremy Miles, the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Sian Jones, head of supporting achievement and safeguarding, and Lloyd Hopkin. I'm afraid I don't have your title, but perhaps you can tell us when—

Head of curriculum reform.

Excellent. Thank you very much indeed.

So, Minister, I just wanted to start off by saying that, obviously, schools face a very challenging time; they have plenty on their plates, including collapsing ceilings and things like that. To what extent are education settings able to prioritise prevention as a response to gender-based violence amongst all the other things they're having to do?

Thank you for the invitation to join you, Chair, today. I think the critical thing with all of the work we're trying to do in schools is to align as much of it as possible, and if you have a common vision for what you're trying to achieve, that, I think, is supported and facilitated. So, the approach that we expect and hope schools to be taking is one where prevention is integrated, really, where practicable, into all aspects of the curriculum and the way in which schools are expected to operate more broadly. And you can see themes that illustrate that.

So, the whole-school approach to mental health and well-being has a part to play in demonstrating healthy, trusted relationships in a school setting, but perhaps most important is the role of the Curriculum for Wales and in particular within that, obviously, the area of learning and experience that is to do with health and well-being. And, of course, probably at the top of the list of priorities in this space in terms of the preventative work, certainly, is the relationships and sexuality education code, which is very specific. It's obviously mandatory and it's obviously taught in a way that is age appropriate, but it is clear that recognising harmful, abusive or coercive behaviour in personal relationships is one of its objectives from age 11 onwards, and, more broadly than that, understanding and having an awareness of different kinds of harmful or abusive behaviour, including violence on the basis of sex and gender. So, it's very much in this space, and the guidance that we've provided is obviously crucial to the implementation of the code and itself talks about learners being supported to recognise all forms of discrimination and domestic abuse and sexual violence, and, crucially, sitting alongside the preventative focus, how, also, to seek help and advice as well—so, that sense of individual and collective responsibility, modelling healthy relationships and then specifically engaging on questions to do with sex and gender-based violence as well.

Obviously, it's very welcome that well-being is front and centre of the new curriculum and seeing children as individuals rather than as a group, but it's quite a challenging journey as well in terms of how individual teachers are going to deliver the relationships and sexuality education to the pupils they're responsible for. So, could you underline what monitoring mechanisms you have or plan to put in place to assess adherence to the legal duties that obviously exist around safeguarding, which go with this RSE agenda?

Yes. That's a broader set of questions, really, isn't it, around safeguarding more broadly. In terms of the compliance by a school with its legal obligations, obviously, the role of the governing body is central to that and our role is to issue statutory guidance or guidance to schools and governing bodies then have regard to that and must have regard to that in how they perform their functions. But I suppose the first level of monitoring to ensure those responsibilities—and there's quite a range of legal duties that arise, obviously, in the context of safeguarding—is the responsibility of the local authority. From our point of view, the guidance that we provide, 'Keeping learners safe', which provides very specific support to schools about how they can discharge their legal obligations, also includes, for example, an audit tool that enables schools to understand their obligations and to map that on to the operations of the school. Obviously, anybody working in an education setting employed by a local authority, for example, has a duty to report incidents when they arise.

I suppose the final piece of that picture, the monitoring point that you made importantly at the end—well, it's a fundamentally important part of Estyn's role in inspection to ensure that schools have appropriate safeguarding measures in place from a compliance perspective, but perhaps more ambitiously, that that is part of the culture of the school as well. So, it's not simply a question of complying with the legislation. Estyn will look more broadly than that around the creation of a safe environment and a safeguarding environment, and monitoring that is important from their point of view as well.

Given that it is a new agenda to endeavour to use the relationships and sexuality education to prevent gender-based violence in the future, what Welsh Government programmes are there to drive this really quite challenging change?

Well, there are a range of programmes that support schools in this, and many of them will originate in funding that we provide as a Government, but which we haven't ourselves directly commissioned, as you will appreciate—so, regional consortia, local authorities and others will also be creating programmes that will have originated in our funding, if you like. But, from our own point of view, I suppose to highlight two very specific ones that we directly fund and support, the first is the Wales police community schools programme, which has as part of its core programme learning around online safety, sexting, but then also sexual exploitation and domestic violence—so, it has a broad and important range of core elements. The Minister responsible for that programme is, in fact, the Deputy Minister for mental health, but we obviously work very closely together in this area and in a number of others. And, actually, that programme has been running for many years very successfully, and it has a preventative component as well as developing that trusted relationship with the police, and, obviously, that can be important in some of the context that the committee is exploring here. That programme has just been reviewed for effectiveness, and the results of the review, I think, have just been presented to Lynne Neagle, so she will be considering that. So, that's one.

Another, and I'm sure Members will maybe even have seen this in action—I saw it in a school in the Bridgend constituency, actually—is that we fund Hafan Cymru's Spectrum project, which is a very effective project when you see it in action. It provides support to staff and governors, but I saw it in action in supporting young people in a primary school to understand the implications of domestic abuse in that context. But it's a very effective programme, and we're looking for ways to enable that to be extended as well.

Thank you. Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much, and thank you, Minister, for being here today. I can concur; it was very good to see that programme and I do think there'd be value in rolling it out.

I'm going to ask some further questions about the Welsh curriculum. So, as we know, education settings can help to promote healthy relationships, to challenge stereotypes and foster gender equality, particularly relationships and sexuality education, which will aim to prevent the messages to ensure schools are challenging societal gender norms that drive gender-based violence—so, a huge area that they're being expected to work with, really. Could you talk us through any work that you'll be doing to commission impact assessments and evaluations of the health and well-being area of learning and experience or relationships and sexuality education? You mentioned monitoring, so how can we find out how this is working, where this is working?

Okay. So, I think the point you made, if I may say, is really important, to recognise that what we're looking at here is a broader societal problem, and schools are reflecting what's happening around them. I think it is important to see it from that point of view, because it tells you about how best to try and respond. But the point you make about understanding the impact of the curriculum is obviously fundamental. So, there are a number of things under way in this space already. Our curriculum impact assessment has—from the start, actually—recognised that how we deliver RSE is fundamentally important. It’s fundamentally important to the discussion we’re having today, but also much more broadly as well. So, that will continue to be an ongoing area of focus for the evaluation work that we are doing.

The annual report that we published identified the need to develop the continuing professional support for teachers in order to be able to deliver this successfully, just in the way that the Chair was mentioning earlier. So, over the next academic year, we’ve got a programme of work working with our practitioners and other partners that develop the resource base in this area.

In terms of the initial research that we’ve done into efficacy of aspects of the curriculum, I published the first of those in April. I’m publishing the second of them next week, and the first one identified the importance of RSE and how we can make sure that’s well implemented. Actually, our research showed us that despite, perhaps, some of the messages that we’ve heard more broadly in the media, the experience of most schools has been one in which it’s been effectively delivered and supportively delivered, and I think it’s very important that we bear that in mind. But we also identified—consistent with what we’d picked up and reported in the annual report—a call from some heads, perhaps, to say they wanted a little bit more support for introducing this part of the curriculum successfully. So, we’ve definitely heard that.

The other aspect to this, more broadly on the health and well-being area, is that you will have seen a few weeks ago that we published our plans for curriculum evaluation in the longer term, and some of that is about to start later this term. There'll be a review process that we'll initiate, and part of that is, if you like, a series of deep-dives into aspects of the curriculum—this is a longer term piece of work, really—and the health and well-being area will be one of those areas that we’re doing a deep-dive into. Obviously, the objective is for us to learn how it’s being implemented and do teachers feel they need more support—so, just that really practical stuff around how we deliver this well.

Okay. Thank you. And you mentioned Estyn earlier on, and, in 2017, Estyn published a review of healthy relationships education. How well, in your opinion, have schools progressed with the issues raised in that report? Are you willing to include follow-up work on this in Estyn's next remit letter, recognising that RSE is now taught in primary schools under the new curriculum?

Well, it was a good report. We accepted all the recommendations and we continue to discuss it with Estyn, and we will consider whether we need to do further work through Estyn on this. What I would say, though, as we would all recognise, I think, is that the context has changed quite a lot since 2017. So, obviously, now we have mandatory healthy relationships learning in schools as part of the new curriculum, and, alongside that, I've just touched a little bit on some of the evaluation and monitoring that we are doing. So, there are other statutory bases and other sources of monitoring and evaluation happening in the system, which weren't in place in 2017, so I just think the context is probably worth bearing in mind as well.

Okay, thank you very much. And my last question: we do have members of our advisory group in the gallery this afternoon, and one of the things that they raised, actually, is just that—. And I thought I'd heard it all, I'll be honest with you, but some of the examples that we heard of some of the relationships and some of the conduct that's happening in schools, that's happening among students, did shock me, and NSPCC Wales has said that the RSE curriculum must be frequently reviewed to ensure it remains aligned with emerging trends and the changing experiences and needs of young people. So, I just wanted to ask, really: how do you intend to ensure this? Because, as we know, things move on; things change. There are so many different influences out there outside of the home, outside of the education settings. We've had particular personalities who have been mentioned—I'm not going to mention their name in here, but—who kind of pop-up in these trends and put out there some really, really damaging, dangerous messages. So, how can we ensure that it's always kept up-to-date with those emerging trends? Also, how can we ensure that young people are involved in that, so that they know that there is a safe space to really talk about what's really happening?

Yes. Well, the learner voice and learner experience is an important part of our evaluation of how the curriculum generally works, and definitely in this area it's particularly important, for the reason that you gave. You mentioned the NSPCC. Just to acknowledge, the work that they did with us in developing the RSE element of the curriculum and their continued advocacy for it, I think, is wonderful.

It is.

So, I thank them for that. I think the point you make is really important, and I also won't mention the individual, for the same reason that you won't, but I have spoken to a number of heads, and it's been an eye-opener, if I can be completely honest with you, hearing how they described the influence of social media influences, as it were, very vividly on aspects of school life, which can be quite shocking when you hear some of the consequences of it. So, I do think, then, that it's important that we do keep this area live, really. That's the point, isn't it? It's a live part of our curriculum, it's reflecting society and it needs to continue to do that.

We've got an annual cycle of small-ish, contained amendments, if you like, to the curriculum. So, there's an opportunity to pick up on changes and emerging trends and changed context as part of that. But, there's also a longer term cycle of review, some of which I've just touched upon now. So, between the two, there are plenty of opportunities for us to keep an eye on not just how it's being implemented as it is today but, as you rightly say, how we might need to adapt it in future.

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you, Chair.

Can I just follow up and ask how easy or difficult, or how challenging it is to involve parents in developing more respectful relationships, in the sense that we can be talking to children about what respectful relationships look like, but we also need to work with the other people who are fundamental to a child's life, particularly in primary school, otherwise that poor child is just getting conflicting arguments, and some of them are very, very confusing for a child?

Well, our guidance in relation to how to deliver this as part of the RSE element of the curriculum, I suppose, which is the most tangible and concrete manifestation of it that I've suggested today, is very clear that we expect schools to work with parents in order to deliver this successfully. And we've spoken with a number of schools about how best to go about that, and there is some really, really good practice that schools are, I think, sharing quite effectively through their regional consortia, and increasingly effectively. It's a very practical thing at the end of the day, isn't it, really.

I, myself, have visited a cluster in Cardiff to talk to the staff there who had had some challenging experiences about how they have started to overcome that by having open conversations with parents. And sometimes, for different reasons, those can be quite challenging, can't they? But that, I think, experience is suggesting to us pretty clearly that where schools have been able to have those open discussions with parents, that's where that part of the curriculum has been most successfully embedded and is being rolled out most successfully.

But there are challenging conversations and, obviously, as part of the broader picture, with attendance levels not being anywhere near where we want them to be, there is a range of ways in which schools and parents need to engage differently with each other, perhaps, and some of that can be equally challenging. So, I think that broader context is important, but, on this particular point, we know that where that communication is open is where it's working best, basically.

Thank you. I'd like to call Ken Skates now to ask some questions.

Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Minister. I'm going to ask some questions, if I may, about the whole-school approach. The committee has heard that there is strong evidence to support a whole-school approach in preventing gender-based violence. What influence do you think needs to be exerted to ensure that school leaders and governors prioritise and also take ownership of this issue within their school setting? For example, are there minimum standards and a monitoring framework in place?

Well, I think the context around this has become more publicly discussed and, in that sense, perhaps better understood by society generally. So, I'm sure you would have been as shocked as I was to read some of the evidence in the Everyone's Invited survey, for example. And that has been a catalyst for a discussion, which this committee's work forms part of, and it's very important that that happens. I'm clear, though, that I think that school leaders do take this seriously, and I think the work Estyn has done to review, for example, peer-on-peer sexual harassment, has some very tangible things that we need to help schools to deliver. And there are questions there around confidence to deal with some of these complex issues, but I don't think there's a lack of priority attached to it.

On the two particular points that you asked about, I do agree with you that the way to succeed here is effectively linking all aspects of a school's thinking and operations and curriculum, so that you've got that common set of principles, which I talked about at the start. The guidance that we've provided, which is the VAWDASV guidance for governors, recommends that schools appoint a governor specifically to support the head and senior staff in relation to their policy on VAWDASV. We recommend that being the child protection link governor, most often, for obvious reasons. So, there's an expectation that that is already in place. And as I just touched on in passing at the start, from a monitoring point of view and a minimum expectations point of view, the work that Estyn does in its inspection regime covers this area as well. So, there's an expectation that schools are delivering on this, and most take this very, very seriously.

Thank you. Are you willing to reconsider a national programme of professional learning to better equip teachers with the skills necessary to deal with this matter?

The annual report I mentioned earlier did in fact talk about the importance, which we would all recognise, of continuing professional support for teachers in aspects, certainly, of RSE in the curriculum. In the next academic year, we'll be doing a programme of work with practitioners, as I mentioned earlier. That will include reviewing options for a national approach. Any of you that have come across DARPL, which is the diversity and anti-racist professional training programme—. It's very successful and very popular. The question we're asking ourselves is, 'Is there a case for a DARPL in RSE?' if you like. That's what we're working through at the moment, and over the course of the next year, working with practitioners, we'll explore that option, certainly.

That's good to hear. Thanks. Just finally, and it follows on from the supplementary question asked by the Chair regarding the role of parents in this area of concern, what do you think the key challenges are for schools in forging alliances with parents and the wider community?

I do some of this work jointly with Jane Hutt, Minister for Social Justice, who I think you took evidence from just this morning—

It's next week.

Oh, next week. Forgive me. We work closely in this area. I touched in my response to the Chair on some of the broader challenges that schools face in terms of engagement at the moment. Our community-focused schools policy is intended to get to the heart of this, really, which is about breaking down barriers between the community and the school, but I think, also, crucially, engaging parents and sometimes re-engaging parents with the school, and recreating for parents the image of what a school is. Some parents may not have had a great experience themselves of school, so that will colour very much, obviously, their dealings with the school on behalf of their child. I've seen some very effective working, and many of us will have in our constituencies, I'm sure, which has really been about just making schools more porous, to bring parents in in different ways, so that it's not solely a place of education but also a broader set of experiences. That has been very effective. We all know that family engagement work, and family engagement officers, is a really effective way of reaching families who are maybe struggling or finding it challenging to send their young people to school, so we've increased the funding in that area quite significantly, as you will know. It's over £6.5 million now, and I think that's very important work. It's not work that all schools have, but the schools that need the support are able to get it through that fund.

Great, thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you very much. If I can now call on Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Mae trais ar sail rhywedd, wrth gwrs, yn cymryd nifer o ffurfiau gwahanol, nifer o agweddau iddyn nhw. Fe wnaethoch chi grybwyll yn eich ateb blaenorol chi y gwnaethoch chi ymateb i adroddiad y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg y llynedd ar aflonyddu rhywiol rhwng cymheiriaid, ac fe sonioch chi y byddai yna gynllun amlasiantaeth. Ydy hynny wedi cael ei gyhoeddi, ac, os nad yw e, pryd ydych chi'n disgwyl cyhoeddi'r cynllun?

Dyw e ddim wedi cael ei gyhoeddi, ond mae e ar fin cael ei gyhoeddi, a'r bwriad yw cyhoeddi fe yn ystod y tymor hwn cyn y Nadolig. Felly, bydd cyfle i'r pwyllgor graffu arno fe yr amser hynny.

Iawn, diolch. Oedd yna unrhyw reswm penodol ynglŷn â pham mae e heb ddod i'r fei hyd yn hyn, neu—

Wel, fel rŷch chi'n dweud, mae e'n waith cymhleth, onid yw e, i sicrhau bod yr holl elfennau, yr holl agweddau, yn cael eu hymdrin ar y cyd. Felly, yr holl bwrpas yw sicrhau bod asiantaethau yn dod â'u profiad a'u perspectifs nhw at ei gilydd, ac mae'r gwaith hwnnw, er mwyn ei gyflawni fe'n iawn, yn cymryd amser, ond y bwriad yw yr hydref yma.

Diolch. Roedd Estyn, yn eu tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig i ni, wedi codi pryder penodol nad yw pob athro yn ymwybodol o'r dyletswydd adrodd orfodol arnyn nhw ynghylch FGM. Pa sgyrsiau ydych chi wedi cael gydag Estyn yn benodol ar hynny, a pha gamau ydych chi wedi eu cymryd mewn ymateb i'r pryderon yma?

Mae'r rhifau sy'n cael eu hadrodd yn achosi pryder, onid ydyn nhw, i weld y ffigurau hynny. Fel rŷch chi'n dweud, mae'n rhywbeth mae Estyn wedi'i godi. Mae dyletswyddau cyfreithiol, fel rŷch chi'n dweud—ac maen nhw yn rhai pwysig iawn—ar athrawon i weithredu yn yr amgylchiadau, pan fyddan nhw'n tybio bod plentyn â risg o FGM. Gwnaeth fy rhagflaenydd ysgrifennu at bob ysgol pan oedd hi'n Weinidog i ddwyn hyn at eu sylw nhw, ond byddwn i'n hapus i gael fy swyddogion i drafod ymhellach gydag Estyn beth mwy y gallwn ni wneud yn y maes hwn hefyd.

Diolch. Ac wedyn, mae'r hyn rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei drafod yn gyffredinol—pa mor gyffredin, yn anffodus, yw trais ar sail rhywedd mewn cymdeithas—wrth gwrs, yn golygu y bydd pob rhiant, pob disgybl, pob aelod o staff, efallai, yn dod ar draws trais sydd wedi'i gyflawni ar sail rhywedd. Felly, pa sicrwydd y gallwch chi ei roi i'r pwyllgor bod gan ysgolion ac adrannau addysg awdurdodau lleol bolisïau priodol i fynd i'r afael â'r materion hyn, ac efallai nid jest y polisïau penodol yna sydd efallai yn gallu bodoli weithiau mewn rhyw fath o seilo, ond yr hyn sy'n mynd ar draws eu polisïau? Fe wnaethon ni glywed gan ein grŵp ymgynghori ni y bore yma ynglŷn â'r drafferth sy'n codi weithiau o ran polisïau mynediad, a'r diffyg dealltwriaeth bod pobl yn gorfod symud eu plant o ran diogelwch, a bod hynny wedyn ddim yn alinio gyda pholisi dalgylch ysgol, gorfod mynd i esbonio hynny, gorfod mynd i fwrdd apêl, gyda phobl sydd efallai heb ddealltwriaeth. Ac rŷn ni wedi clywed, yn anffodus, dystiolaeth nad oes yna lot o gydymdeimlad chwaith gyda'u sefyllfa. Felly, oes yna fodd o fynd i'r afael ar draws polisïau, nid jest cael polisi penodol?

Byddai gyda fi ddiddordeb i glywed beth yw casgliadau'r pwyllgor yn sgil beth rŷch chi wedi ei glywed yn hynny o beth, achos mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n clywed y dystiolaeth honno rŷch chi wedi ei chlywed. Mae'r canllawiau rŷn ni'n eu darparu i gyrff llywodraethol, ac i gynghorau lleol, fel roeddwn i'n sôn yn fras gynnau, yn golygu mwy na jest cyd-fynd gyda pholisi; mae ynglŷn â chreu diwylliant ehangach, y math o ddiwylliant rŷch chi'n sôn amdano fe, lle mae pob elfen o'r ysgol yn deall hyn, rili. A dyna beth yw pwrpas y teclyn gwerthuso—yr audit tool—fel bod ysgol yn gallu mynd trwy'r broses hon o ddeall goblygiadau’r math yma o ddiwylliant, a sut maen nhw'n gweithredu. Ond, fel rŷch chi'n dweud, os ydych chi wedi clywed tystiolaeth bod mwy y gallwn ni ei wneud, byddai gyda fi ddiddordeb clywed am hynny hefyd.

Gwych, diolch yn fawr.

Very good. Altaf Hussain, did you want to ask any further questions on this area?

Hi, Jeremy. It is about social media. Has the Welsh Government made any assessment of the impact social media has on the prevalence of GBV amongst school pupils, and, if so, has there been any uptake in gender-based violence since Twitter—or, as you call it now, X—decided to allow unrestricted access to display it on their platform, in the name of free speech?

I don't have the answer to that last question, though it would be interesting and important to know that for us all, I think, wouldn't it, because I think part of the issue here is the changing, the fast-changing nature of some of the social media that we are all aware of.

Online safety is a critical part of the RSE code and understanding the risks and how to stay safe, and also the responsibilities, actually, of how to behave online in the context of relationships is a fundamental part of that. We identified, a number of years ago, the growing prevalence of online misogyny in particular—we've touched on that obliquely a little today already—and worked together with the Football Association of Wales, for example, to create some online resources. And I went to see some of these being used in a school in the Rhondda, actually, which were around modelling positive behaviour to boys, but also modelling to girls who might be victims how best to respond and to keep themselves safe and how to report. And those resources have been—. There was a campaign that has run over two or three years now, which I think has proved very popular, and I think one of the challenges for us as a Government—all Governments, really—is how do you keep finding ways of refreshing that message perhaps using other voices who, I dare say, maybe even more trusted than the Government and who, certainly, are probably more relatable, in all seriousness. So, I was really pleased with the work that we did there. It involved male and female footballers, so there was a range of messages. So, if the committee hasn't had a chance to see some of that, I'm sure we could share links with the committee; I think it's definitely worth a look. And there's a lot of other work that we've done that is on Hwb that supports learners directly to keep themselves safe online, and describes their responsibilities to them as well.

Thank you, Chair.

Isn't it a bit of a losing battle, though, given the recent Panorama programme on the penetration that somebody, a woman hater like Andrew Tate, has on so many young people online?

Chair, if you would find it useful, I could share with you the names of some schools that I think have been responding quite directly to this in some of the work that they've done. I probably shouldn't name them in the committee; I don't want them to—. But I'd be very happy to share that with you, subject to them being happy to talk to you about it. There might be something useful there for you to hear about.

Because it's such a challenging issue, so that'll be very useful information. Thank you. Sioned Williams, back to you.

Diolch, ie. Jest eisiau sôn am addysg uwch ychydig. Mae ffocws wedi bod ar brifysgolion a'r angen i fynd i'r afael â thrais ar sail rhywedd mewn addysg uwch, yn dilyn cyfres o gyhoeddiadau proffil uchel o 2016. Pa mor hyderus ydych chi bod prifysgolion yn cymryd camau digonol i fynd i'r afael â thrais ar sail rhywedd? Oes yna brosesau ar waith i sicrhau bod pob achos o drais, camdriniaeth ac aflonyddu yn cael ei gofnodi a'i fonitro ym mhrifysgolion Cymru?

Wel, fel byddwch chi'n deall, rŷn ni'n gweithredu trwy HEFCW yn ein perthynas gyda phrifysgolion yn hyn o beth, ac mae'r trefniadau hyn yn rhan gynhennid o'n trefniadau remit sydd gyda ni rhwng y Llywodraeth a HEFCW. Felly, maen nhw, yn sgil hynny, yn gweithio gyda phrifysgolion i godi ymwybyddiaeth o drais yn erbyn menywod a thrais yn y cartref, ond hefyd i ddarparu canllawiau i brifysgolion ar sut i fynd i'r afael â hyn a sut i gefnogi'r sefydliadau. Ac mae ganddyn nhw hefyd drefniadau ar waith sydd yn gofyn, yn mynnu, fod sefydliadau yn adrodd ar hyn, ac unrhyw fethiannau i ddilyn y prosesau, wrth HEFCW, ac mae hwn yn cynnwys VAWDASV. Mae Universities Wales hefyd wedi bod yn gweithio gyda'r sefydliadau ar VAWDASV yn benodol ac wedi cyhoeddi datganiad ar y cyd yn y cyfnod diweddar—dwi ddim yn cofio'r dyddiad—ar beidio â defnyddio cytundebau non-disclosure yng nghyd-destun trais fel hyn. Felly, mae canllawiau priodol gan HEFCW, ac wedyn ymgyrch ymarferol, os hoffwch chi, gan Brifysgolion Cymru hefyd.

Diolch. Mae CCAUC wedi dweud wrthym ni fod chwech o wyth prifysgol yng Nghymru wedi neilltuo cyllid ar gyfer ymyriadau penodol gan wylwyr—bystander, yntefe—yn 2022-23, a maen nhw'n mynd i barhau i wneud hynny nawr yn y flwyddyn nesaf, er bod yna gwestiynau a fydd cyllid ar gael y tu hwnt i hynny. Ydych chi'n ymwybodol nad yw dwy brifysgol yng Nghymru wedi ymrwymo i hyn, ac, os felly, ŷch chi'n fodlon eu bod nhw'n darparu ymyriadau eraill i sicrhau bod menywod ifanc sy'n mynychu'r prifysgolion hyn yn ddiogel?

Ydw, rwyf yn ymwybodol bod dwy brifysgol wedi penderfynu ar ffordd wahanol o ddelifro hyn. Dyna beth sydd wedi digwydd, mewn gwirionedd, ac maen nhw wedi profi'r cynlluniau oedd gyda nhw gyda HEFCW, a HEFCW wedi asesu'r rheini fel rhai digonol, er nid yr union beth roeddech chi'n sôn amdano fe. Mae'r trefniadau, maen nhw'n dweud, yn addas. Mewn un enghraifft, gwnaethon nhw benderfynu newid y ffordd roedden nhw'n delifro fe oherwydd doedd y take-up ddim wedi bod yn grêt yn y ffordd ar-lein o ddelifro fe. Felly, maen nhw wedi bod yn chwilio am ffyrdd amgen o ddelifro fe, ac wedi bod yn recriwtio swyddog trais rhywiol er mwyn gwneud y gwaith yna'n benodol. Ac yn yr enghraifft arall, maen nhw wedi cymryd rhyw fath o whole-university approach, os hoffwch chi, yn cynnwys gweithio gyda mudiadau penodol, mudiadau chwaraeon o fewn y brifysgol, a hyfforddi yn uniongyrchol. Felly, maen nhw hefyd wedi delifro hyn mewn ffyrdd gwahanol, ac mae HEFCW wedi gwerthuso'r ddau gynllun ac wedi dweud bod nhw'n gyson gyda'r disgwyliadau, os hoffwch chi.

Iawn. Fe glywon ni gan Dr Rachel Fenton o Brifysgol Caerwysg a oedd wedi datblygu pecyn cymorth menter ymyrraeth ar gyfer prifysgolion, ac fe wnaeth hi ddweud ei fod e'n ymyrraeth effeithiol iawn; mae hyn yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth. Ond mae CCAUC wedi dweud wrthym ni nad oes yr un o'r prifysgolion yng Nghymru yn gweithredu'r fenter arbennig yma, gan ddweud nad yw'n ymddangos hefyd fod cyfeiriad ati hi ar wefan Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru. Ydych chi'n ymwybodol o hyn? Oes yna rywbeth sydd jest wedi cael ei anghofio fan hyn?

Yr ateb gonest yw 'dwi ddim yn gwybod'. Fyddwn i fy hunan ddim yn awyddus i fod yn gorfodi ynglŷn â pa hyfforddiant, pa becyn penodol. Dwi ddim yn gwybod y pecyn rŷch chi'n sôn amdano, felly dwi ddim am wneud sylw ar hwnnw o gwbl. Gwnaf i edrych mewn i'r pecyn i weld a oes diffyg ymwybyddiaeth, ond ar ddiwedd y dydd y peth pwysig yw bod yr allbwn yn weithredol ac yn effeithiol. Felly, efallai fod mwy nag un ffordd o gyrraedd y nod hwnnw. Ond rwy'n hapus iawn i edrych ar y rhaglen rŷch chi wedi sôn amdani yn benodol.

Diolch. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Prynhawn da i chi. Dwi eisiau jest gofyn un cwestiwn ar y maes diogelu mewn ysgolion neu addysg. Pa mor hyderus ydych chi fel Gweinidog yn y prosesau a'r systemau yn y maes diogelu mewn ysgolion ac mewn addysg? Rydyn ni wedi gofyn yr un cwestiwn i'r Gweinidogion iechyd hefyd.

Wel, mae cymysgedd o ddau beth, onid oes: hynny yw, rhoi canllawiau clir—mae'r anghenion cyfreithiol yn eu lle—ond hefyd, yn fwy na hynny, rhoi'r arfau a'r teclynnau yn nwylo ysgolion fel eu bod nhw'n gallu gweithredu'r dyletswyddau cyfreithiol yw'r peth ymarferol. Felly, y canllawiau statudol rŷm ni'n eu darparu, dyna fwriad rhoi'r rheini yn eu lle, ac mae'r gwaith pwysig mae Estyn yn gwneud hefyd wedyn i werthuso a ydy diwylliant yr ysgol yn un sydd yn blaenoriaethu safeguarding, ynghyd â glynu at y gofynion rheoleiddiol. Rwy'n credu bod hynny yn rhoi sicrwydd i ni fod unrhyw issues yn gallu cael eu hamlygu pan fyddan nhw'n codi o bryd i'w gilydd, ac mae hynny wir yn bwysig, ein bod ni'n cydnabod pan fo hynny yn digwydd, fel ein bod ni'n gallu ymateb iddyn nhw.

Felly, ydych chi'n teimlo'n hyderus neu ddim, neu'n hanner hyderus? Lle ydych chi fel Gweinidog?

Rwy'n credu bod y systemau sydd gyda ni yn rhoi hyder i ni fod ysgolion yn deall eu goblygiadau, a bod y cymorth yn ei le fel eu bod nhw'n gallu cyrraedd y nod.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Un o'r pethau roeddem ni'n ei glywed y bore yma oedd bod athrawon a phobl sy'n gweithio mewn ysgolion yn cael amser i ddelio efo'r effeithiau emosiynol, er enghraifft, pan fyddan nhw'n clywed am bethau ofnadwy fel trais yn erbyn menywod. Beth ydy'ch barn chi? Lle ydych chi ar hynny? Ydy hyn yn digwydd yn ein hysgolion, yn eich profiad chi?

Rŷn ni wedi cynyddu’r ddarpariaeth sydd ar gael i gefnogi llesiant y gweithlu addysg yn gyffredinol, ac athrawon yn benodol, fel bod cyngor ar gael—cyngor cyffredinol ar-lein, ond hefyd ddarpariaeth unigol i gael cyngor dros y ffôn os oes gan rywun rhywbeth maen nhw’n poeni amdano fe yn sgil trais, neu achos arall, ond mae’n cynnwys trais yn sicr. Mae’r ddarpariaeth yna wedi ehangu ein gallu ni i gyrraedd mwy o ysgolion. Maen nhw hefyd yn cynnig pecyn o gefnogaeth benodol i ysgolion sydd yn galluogi’r pennaeth i gydweithio gyda mudiadau i ddylunio rhaglen sydd yn bwrpasol ar gyfer yr ysgol er mwyn cefnogi llesiant athrawon yn gyffredinol. Felly, rŷn ni’n chwilio am ffordd o gefnogi’r proffesiwn i ddelio gyda sefyllfaoedd anodd. Y whole-school approach i iechyd meddwl a llesiant, hefyd, mae elfen o hwnnw, wrth gwrs, i hyfforddi athrawon ar sut i ymateb a sut i ddelio gyda’r hyn maen nhw’n ei glywed, achos, fel roeddech chi’n ei ddweud, mae hynny yn gallu bod yn un o’r heriau mwyaf.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydym ni wedi clywed disgrifiad o’r sefyllfa efo trais yn erbyn menywod a genethod fel pandemig, ac un o’r pethau rydym ni eisiau edrych arno fel pwyllgor ydy sut mae pobl yn cydweithio efo’i gilydd ar draws y Llywodraeth. Gaf i ofyn i chi sut ydych chi’n cydweithio efo’r Gweinidog iechyd a’r Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am hyn? Sut ydych chi’n cydweithio?

Wel, y ddwy brif berthynas efallai y byddai gyda fi yn y maes hwn yw'r un gyda Jane Hutt, gwnes i sôn amdani hi yn gynharach, a’r ail un, sy’n uniongyrchol ar hyn a’r gwaith roeddwn i’n sôn amdano fe jest nawr, y whole-school approach i iechyd meddwl a llesiant, a hefyd y gwaith mae’r rhaglen roeddwn i’n sôn amdani hi yn gynharach, pan fo’r heddlu yn mynd i ysgolion i sôn am drais yn erbyn menywod, yw'r berthynas gyda Lynne Neagle, ac rŷn ni’n cydweithio yn agos iawn. Rŷn ni’n cyd-gadeirio’r grŵp sydd yn edrych ar yr issues yma ar draws ysgolion, ar draws y system addysg yn gyffredinol, ac mae ein cyllidebau ni’n dod ynghyd i ariannu hynny. Felly, mae’r cydweithio, byddwn i’n dweud, yn agos iawn rhyngom ni.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd.

Okay. I think one last question I have around the challenges for schools is that we've had members of a gender-based violence advisory group who say it's extremely difficult to get counselling or get mental health services for children who've witnessed domestic violence or have experienced it themselves, but there's a real dilemma for schools in giving access. Enabling children to access counselling is obviously one really excellent way of helping with the problem, but once you start referring children to mental health services then there are consequences in terms of the record, that an individual child is being labelled with a particular thing, which can be very difficult and have future consequences for their professional careers, et cetera. I just wondered how well we're ensuring that children are getting the service they need to address trauma in their lives.

I think putting it in the context of trauma is very important, and Lynne Neagle, who leads on the mental health aspects, of course, as you know, has encouraged a number of Ministers—and I've done this myself—to undertake attachment training and trauma-informed practice training to understand the implications from a policy point of view of some of the complexities that the committee's work is going to illustrate, I think. From a school's point of view, clearly the most important thing is that the young person gets the support that's appropriate for their circumstances and meets their needs, needless to say, and for some that will be counselling, but for many others it won't be that. In particular, if you look at younger children perhaps, maybe that isn't appropriate and there are other things in the nurture space that can provide supportive contexts for that child's needs to be met. So, I think it's about identifying—. The whole-school approach to mental health and well-being has a range of interventions. It isn't just about counselling. I mean, we've massively expanded counselling availability, but you will know, as I'm sure others will, that there's a lot of demand for that as well. But the framework for that will show that there's a range of interventions that we are supporting, and I think the point that you make is really important, that the support that the young person might need—you know, we ought not to be medicalising that relationship unless that is the appropriate thing for that particular young person. So, one has to be very, very mindful of that, I think, for the reasons that you give. But I do think the framework approach that we have, and the other interventions that support the strategy, are a much more varied range of initiatives.

Very good. I think Ken Skates wanted to come in on that.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, on that very point, I'm sure you won't be aware of the programme, but there's a fascinating programme that's operating in Flintshire, focused at Ysgol Bryn Coch, called Y Berllan, and basically it offers support to any young person at that primary school or cluster schools, with access to fully trained counsellors. We've heard on a number of occasions that counselling isn't always appropriate for young people, but the very presence of trained counsellors, professionals, on site has proven to be hugely valuable in terms of outcomes. I'd be incredibly grateful if officials within the education department flagged this up to the Deputy Minister for mental health, but whether officials in the education department could take a look at that programme and provide some observations to the committee on it—. Thank you.

I'm happy to follow up on that. Thank you for that.

Very good. And just a final question from me, which is, really, what role your officials play on the national VAWDASV programme board, and the six different work streams that they have got going on this, what is a pandemic, really, of gender-based violence, obviously further aggravated by the cost of living and poverty that goes with it.

So, there's a range of ways in which the structure brings officials together. So, at the director general level, the director general for my division is also the director general for the social justice division, so it's one person that does both—it's a conjoined function in that sense, and she sits on the national partnership board. Then there's a senior education official who sits on the children and young people work stream, which obviously focuses on education, and, in addition to that, the work that is about to be undertaken, which is a review of the national indicators, the preliminary mapping aspect of that is about how we can make sure that we are properly able to evaluate it, that we know what 'good' looks like, if you know what I mean. And part of that work—. Well, education officials are feeding into how we describe the outputs that we want, and, when we get to the next stage, they'll be involved in that as well. So there's close working. Education's a critical component for delivering our broader VAWDASV objectives as a Government, so that close working is very evident between officials, I think.

Very good. Is that a legacy hand, Ken, or—? Very good. If there are no further questions, I'd thank the Minister and his officials for coming in this afternoon. We'll obviously send you a transcript that you can correct to make sure that it accurately reflects your views and what is going on in your department.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr.

There are now very large numbers of papers to note as a result of the recess. So, 24 items of correspondence to note. Are Members content to note them so that we can pick them up in our work? You wanted to pick up on one issue.

There are a few that I would like to comment on, but maybe I can do that later.

Well, you're welcome to do some of them in public if you wish to, and then, obviously, we can pick anything up.

I'm very happy to do that. Firstly, it's in regard to 6.3, which is the response from the Minister for Social Justice with regard to speech and language therapy, and the disappointing response that she feels she cannot write she cannot write to youth justice boards because it's non-devolved. And I wondered if the committee would consider requesting knowing the reasons why it wasn't possible, apart from it being a reserved matter, because, obviously, youth justice boards are jointly funded—they are not just solely funded by the UK Government, they're funded by Welsh Government funds. So, this is with regards to the good practice we saw at Neath Port Talbot, and it feels like we're missing an opportunity if we don't do that. Thank you.

Okay. It would certainly be possible to follow up that letter and challenge that.

Thank you, Chair. I'm afraid there are two others, if I may, as well, please. Item 6.20, which is the response from the Minister for Climate Change with regards to the new Warm Homes programme and the timetable. I was a little bit confused—I don't know if it was just me—reading that, but both the contract award and the mobilisation are timetabled for the end of November. And given that we've seen a lot of slippage in this, I was just a little bit concerned that maybe there'd been a mix-up there, but it really feels like we should just stay on top of that, if that's okay, Chair.

Yes.

Thank you. And my final one, sorry, is with regards to 6.9, which is the police's response to this particular issue. I just wonder if we could move part of the responses to a discussion that maybe we'll be having in the next part, around perpetrator programmes.

Very good. Yes. That's certainly something we can pick up with the Minister for Social Justice in our interviews next week.

Thank you, Chair.

If there are no further comments, if we can note all those papers and move back into private session.