Reform Bill Committee

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Rŷn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am y cynnig i ddod yma.

As you know, we've been involved with the significant changes that have happened to elections in Wales. Could I just say that I think the UK as a whole, the UK commission as a whole, has been very interested in the reforms that have been mooted in Wales, and will have a very significant role in looking at how successful those reforms can be? I just want to say right at the beginning, for the avoidance of any doubt, that we as a commission will play our part absolutely in supporting the implementation of any changes, including the provision of support and guidance for electoral administrators and campaigners, and ensuring that voters understand how to participate within the new system.

But as regards looking at the way that these Bills have been formed, I’m going to hand over to Rhydian just with the caveat that, at every stage in every opportunity we’ve had, our relationship with Welsh Government and with the officials in Welsh Government has been excellent, both on these Bills and throughout the very difficult period of COVID, when we were trying to devise health and safety rules for the proper running of that election. So, it’s a relationship that we can build on. So, over to you, Rhydian.

Thanks, Elan. Yes, as Elan mentioned, we've got a really good working relationship with Welsh Government and we credit their approach in terms of the development of these Bills. They've been in touch with us all along, throughout the process of development. So, we had a very good idea of what would be included in the Bill before it was laid in the Senedd.

We also sit on the Welsh Government's Senedd electoral reform delivery board, which has been a really important vehicle to be able to discuss what was intended to be included in the Bill, and I understand that that body will roll forward into a formal planning group, which I think is also very positive. So, we’ll want to continue to work closely with Welsh Government, the Senedd Commission and the wider electoral community in Wales. It's not been just about including us within the process; I think we've got a good network within Wales, with electoral practitioners, political parties, and they've all been included very effectively within the process.

I'm sorry I didn’t have my mike down. I hope you understood that.

Thank you very much. We did hear it, Rhydian. We did hear you.

Can I just add—

I just want to ask Rhydian one question, if that's okay, Elan.

You said you have been working well with the Welsh Government and officials, and therefore, my assumption from that comment is that there is nothing in this Bill you didn't expect.

No, there's nothing in the Bill that we didn't expect. We think the provisions included within the Bill are deliverable by electoral administrators.

The two areas that we'd highlight, and we always highlight these areas, and I'm sure colleagues from the Wales Electoral Coordination Board and the Association of Electoral Administrators did as well, relate to timing and resourcing on timing. We always recommend that relevant legislation is in place six months before it's required to be implemented, following the Gould principle—that's a well-established principle that's understood by the wider electoral community—which allows for appropriate planning for these types of reforms. And on resourcing, obviously, the Welsh Government will need to ensure that administrators are properly supported to deliver these reforms, especially around changes to electoral management software and systems. And these are points that have been made to Welsh Government and I think it's fair to say that they've been understood.

And Elan.

Just to add. I think it's very important for us to differentiate between having a good, a really good working relationship with Welsh Government, and in any way trying to influence the policy making. I think there are two areas: policy making, which belongs to Welsh Government itself, and the practical implementation of any reform, which falls into the kind of advice that we would be giving. I think it's very important for us to note that.

Thank you for that clarification. Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a bore da. Os caf i holi, felly, rydych chi'n sôn yn eich tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig am yr angen am raglen o ymwybyddiaeth gyhoeddus i godi ymwybyddiaeth o'r trefniadau newydd. Fel rydyn ni'n gwybod, mae pŵer gan Gomisiwn y Senedd, ond nid dyletswydd i wneud hynny. Byddwn i'n hoffi'ch barn chi, efallai, o ran pwy ydych chi'n credu ddylai fod yn arwain ar y rhaglen yma, ac oes angen i'r ddyletswydd fod yn glir drwy'r Bil, a'r un corff arweiniol i fod dan ofyniad i arwain y gwaith. Ac os felly, pwy ddylai'r corff yna fod?

The work that has been undertaken by all the various bodies for previous elections in Wales, whether it's Welsh Government themselves, the Senedd Commission, and a range of partner bodies including Welsh local authorities, has been really, really useful. Where there has been—and I think this alludes to your point—maybe some confusion is around the co-ordination of that work. We've seen that in previous electoral events many, many moons ago, where I think the Senedd Commission would take the lead in terms of arranging and co-ordinating all of the various groups, so that we were clear that there wasn't any duplication in terms of messaging, that the organisations that were meant to be putting out a campaign relating to registration did that, the organisation that was meant to be talking about certain groups did that, and so on. We haven't seen that so much in recent years, and I think that relates to probably lots of pressures from a variety of different organisations, the wider environment, COVID. But I think it would be useful for that to be looked at in greater detail and I think the commission—as we have in the past—would welcome an opportunity to work, maybe not in leading that work, but in certainly working with the Senedd Commission, perhaps, on the overall co-ordination of messaging.

Do you have a specific view in terms of who? So, do you feel that it should be more explicit rather than left ambiguous, as it may be considered at this point?

Dwi'n credu y byddai hi'n syniad da i beidio bod yn amwys. Mae'n syniad da bob amser bod yna ryw arweinyddiaeth yn digwydd. Ac fel mae Rhydian newydd ei ddweud, mae'n rhaid osgoi gwastraffu arian drwy ddyblygu beth mae pobl eraill yn ei wneud. Rhaid inni fod yn glir yn y patrwm o bwy rydyn ni'n trio ei gyrraedd a gyda pha bamffled, e-bost neu beth bynnag ydy o—neu ar X. Mae'n rhaid inni gydlynu'r ymgyrch. Dwi'n meddwl efallai, gan fod Comisiwn y Senedd yn gorff pwerus ac yn siarad dros y Senedd fel corff, y byddan nhw'n addas iawn i gymryd yr arweinyddiaeth. Ond rydyn ni'n barod i gydweithredu gydag unrhyw un sydd yn y maes.

Rwy'n credu bod yna esiampl yna, efallai, efo'r ddeddfwriaeth. Efo'r ddeddfwriaeth, y Llywodraeth sy'n gyfrifol am y ddeddfwriaeth ac felly'r Llywodraeth sy'n cydlynu'r gwaith o ran tynnu'r grwpiau gwahanol yma at ei gilydd i drafod y ddeddfwriaeth a beth sydd angen ei wneud a phlanio, ac yn y blaen. Felly, o ran etholiadau'r Senedd a'r gwaith fydd ei angen o ran codi ymwybyddiaeth o etholiadau'r Senedd, y Senedd ei hunan sy'n gyfrifol, felly mae'n gwneud rhyw fath o synnwyr cyffredin eu bod nhw'n ei gydlynu fe a bod cyrff fel y comisiwn ac eraill yn rhan o'r drafodaeth honno.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yn amlwg, mae gennych chi rôl i'w chwarae, fel rydych chi wedi'i amlinellu, a da yw gwybod eich bod chi'n barod i chwarae hynny. Oes yna unrhyw gymorth neu adnoddau ychwanegol sydd eu hangen ar y Comisiwn Etholiadol, neu'r posibilrwydd o hynny, neu weinyddwyr etholiadol i gynorthwyo'r gwaith o weithredu'r Bil hwn, gan gynnwys hyrwyddo?

O ran y comisiwn, rwy'n credu bydd y gwaith rŷn ni'n ei wneud yn edrych yn debyg iawn i beth dŷn ni wedi'i wneud yn etholiadau yn y gorffennol—yn 2021, er enghraifft. Bydd y canolbwynt ar guidance, fel petai, i'r rheini sydd yn rhedeg yr etholiadau ac yn cymryd rhan yn yr etholiadau—pleidiau gwleidyddol ac ymgyrchwyr—a hefyd, yn bwysig, rhedeg ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth. Dŷn ni wedi gwneud y gwaith hwnnw yn y gorffennol, dŷn ni'n gwybod beth mae'r gwaith hwnnw'n edrych fel, ond yn amlwg, mae'r neges sy'n rhan o'r ymgyrch ac yn rhan o'r guidance y tro yma yn mynd i fod yn wahanol. Felly, fydd yna ddim adnodd ychwanegol, fel petai, ond bydd yn rhaid inni edrych yn fanwl ar beth dŷn ni'n ei ddweud.

Dwi'n meddwl, efallai—a, Rhydian, efallai byddet ti hefyd yn cytuno—mai rhoi'r neges allan i'r etholwyr ydy un o'r prif ddyletswyddau, achos mae'n hollbwysig eu bod nhw'n deall bod yna newidiadau sylfaenol wedi digwydd o ran pwy maen nhw'n ethol a sut maen nhw'n ethol, a dros ba ran o'r tir y mae'r etholaeth yna'n gyfrifol. Felly, mae yna newidiadau pellgyrhaeddol ac mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod ni'n cydlynu gyda Chomisiwn y Senedd ac eraill i wneud yn saff bod y negeseuon yna'n glanio'n iawn.

Er enghraifft, yn 2021, roedd yna ddau ran i'n hymgyrch ni. Roedd un ymgyrch yn edrych ar gofrestru i bleidleisio—sut i gofrestru, pryd oedd yn rhaid cofrestru erbyn i allu cymryd rhan yn yr etholiad. Ac roedd ail ran yr ymgyrch yn edrych ar wybodaeth i bleidleiswyr a beth oedd yn digwydd, beth oedden nhw'n mynd i dderbyn o ran papur pleidleisio, sut i fwrw eu pleidlais, ac yn y blaen. Byddwn i'n meddwl bydd yr ymgyrch y tro yma yn debyg, ond bydd y neges, o ran y papur pleidleisio, er enghraifft, yn wahanol.

Diolch yn fawr. Gaf i ofyn un cwestiwn olaf? Pa effaith, os o gwbl, fydd y Bil hwn, y Bil Etholiadau a Chyrff Etholedig (Cymru) a'r ddeddfwriaeth arfaethedig o ran cwotâu rhywedd ymgeiswyr yn ei chael ar eich cynllun pum mlynedd cyfredol chi fel comisiwn?

Bydd yn rhaid inni edrych arno fe. Mae'r cynllun yn edrych yn gyffredinol ar sut i gefnogi ymgyrchwyr, pleidiau gwleidyddol, ymgeiswyr ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae'r neges a'r egwyddor yn mynd i fod yr un fath.

Jane.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi ddim yn gwybod yr ateb i hyn, ond gaf i ofyn a oeddech chi'n gyfrifol am roi'r wybodaeth allan ar gyfer y Senedd ddiwethaf pan oedd pobl 16 ac 17 oed yn gallu pleidleisio am y tro cyntaf?

Oeddem. Ac roedden ni hefyd yn cymryd diddordeb mawr yn y grŵp oedran yna, ac yn gwneud gwaith helaeth i geisio creu diddordeb. Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, rydyn ni i gyd yn siomedig nad ydyn ni'n gallu cael 95 y cant neu beth bynnag o bobl ifanc yn ymddiddori, ond mae hwn yn rhywbeth dwi'n credu sydd yn broblem eang yn gymdeithasol o ran bod pobl ifanc, efallai, yn gweld eu swyddogaeth tu mewn i bethau fel ymgyrchu uniongyrchol, protest, yn hytrach nag adnabyddiaeth o system etholiadol. Dyna pam dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n hollbwysig bod yr ysgolion yn cael eu hannog i fedru cynnwys y systemau etholiadol a'r rhesymau pam y dylid defnyddio'r systemau etholiadol fel rhan o'u haddysg nid jest yn y chweched dosbarth, ond cyn hynny, gan fod y bleidlais gan bobl sydd yn 16 oed.

Dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r problemau sydd gennym ni ydy ychydig o nerfusrwydd ymysg athrawon hefyd, ac mae hwn yn gwbl ddealladwy, eu bod nhw'n dysgu gwleidyddiaeth ac nid yn dysgu systemau etholiadol ond yn rhoi barn wleidyddol. Mae yna nerfusrwydd yn dod i mewn ynglŷn â hynny. Rydyn ni wedi paratoi adnoddau eang ar gyfer athrawon a disgyblion, ac mi fyddwn ni'n parhau gyda'r gwaith yna. Mae un o'n prif swyddogion ni, Ella Downing, efallai rydych chi wedi dod ar ei thraws, yn gwneud gwaith rhagorol gyda phobl ifanc. Efallai y byddai Rhydian yn gallu ehangu trwy ddweud wrthych chi pwy ydy'n partneriaid ni ar hyn o bryd.

O ran yr etholiadau diwethaf yn 2021, roedd y rhaglen addysg newydd ddechrau. Gwnaeth hi ddechrau, rwyf i'n credu, ym mis Medi, mis Hydref 2020, ac roedd y gwaith yn gychwynnol iawn. Mae hi wedi sefydlu lot mwy nawr, mae lot mwy o adnoddau ar ein safle we ni, adnoddau i bobl ifanc ac adnoddau, yn bwysig, i addysgwyr. Mae pwynt Elan yn hollol gywir, mae addysgwyr yn nerfus—dim pob un, ond mae lot o addysgwyr yn nerfus o ran siarad am wleidyddiaeth yn y dosbarth a thu allan i'r dosbarth o ganlyniad i lot o'r stwff dŷn ni'n ei weld, efallai, ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol ac yn y blaen. Dŷn ni'n gwneud lot o sesiynau gyda'r rheini hefyd.

Yn ogystal â hynny, dŷn ni wedi datblygu partneriaeth swyddogol efo Plant yng Nghymru, Children in Wales. Nhw nawr yw ein partner youth voice ni, a phwynt y rhaglen honno yw dod â phobl ifanc ar draws Cymru at ei gilydd o bob cefndir, fel eu bod nhw'n gallu rhoi eu llais nhw ar beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud a dweud os ydy beth ydy ni'n ei wneud a'r negeseuon dŷn ni'n eu rhoi mas yn gywir ac yn effeithiol. Mae'r rhaglen honno newydd ddechrau. Dŷn ni hefyd yn gweithio efo'r Democarcy Box. Felly, dŷn ni'n hyderus y bydd y rhaglen yn fwy cynhwysfawr erbyn 2026 nag oedd hi yn gychwynnol yn 2021.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch i'r Cadeirydd.

Efallai y gallaf i ychwanegu, Jane, fod bwrdd canolog y comisiwn yn cyfarfod yng Nghaerdydd ddydd Llun a dydd Mawrth nesaf, ac mi fyddwn ni yn cyfarfod gyda Plant yng Nghymru a gyda Democracy Box yn ystod y cyfnod yna. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni yn mynd i fod ym Mhafiliwn y Grange, sydd hefyd yn gwneud gwaith gyda phobl ifanc. Felly, mae'r ymwybyddiaeth o'r angen i ymestyn allan tuag at bobl ifanc yn real.

Heledd, had you finished?

Yes.

Before I move on to Sarah, just one question on the conduct Order for the 2026 elections. I would just like clarification as to what you think the last date is that needs to be set to ensure that elections can go smoothly, shall we say.

That's a really good point. Thanks. The point I made earlier relating to timeliness and the Gould principle relates to all legislation, so primary and secondary legislation. So, we would expect that the conduct Order would be in place six months prior to the date of implementation, the date of poll as well, so in the autumn of 2025.

So, you think that six months is what you really need to ensure—

At least six months. I know that the Welsh Government, to be fair, are hoping that it will be before then, but at least six months is what the principle states.

It's a minimum rather than desirable.

Obviously, we are scrutinising the Bill, and we will be making a report that may well have recommendations, depending on the evidence we receive. If the Government brings forward changes, or the Senedd decides to change the systems within the Bill, is that still doable within that timescale?

As in the electoral system?

Possibly, yes.

You will have heard from the WECB and the AEA, and there are pressures there, especially given the wider environment with other Bills and Acts that are affecting their work. But from the discussions that we've had with the WECB—and again, it goes back to having a strong community in Wales that works together very well—we understand that according to current timescales, new systems will be implementable.

Okay. Sarah.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you all for being here this morning. I'm going to ask some more questions now about the electoral system and Senedd terms. It would be great if you could start by sharing your views on the extent to which the closed list proportional representation system proposed in the Bill would be familiar to voters, in your opinion.

As you're probably aware, we don't take a view on the voting systems themselves. The decision to implement a new voting system is a matter for the Senedd and for Government. Our role is really around ensuring that voters understand any new electoral system that's adopted, so that they can cast their vote in the way that's intended, and also to provide guidance to administrators.

On your point, we've seen versions of the list system in Wales previously at Assembly elections and Senedd elections—albeit within a hybrid system—and at European Parliament elections. We write a report after each election evaluating how the election was run and managed, and as part of that, we take account of voter opinion, and we haven't got any evidence to show that there was any real confusion in relation to voting within a list system, so that's not something that we're aware of; they've been able to cast their vote properly.

Okay, thank you very much—

Could I just ask one question on that, please? Sorry to interrupt, Sarah. We've had six elections in which there's been a regional closed list-type approach, but they also have been linked into a constituency first-past-the-post election. In your understanding of those six elections, have the voting public in Wales got a better understanding of the list agenda compared to the first-past-the-post? Because this is proposing just the list and no first-past-the-post. So, do people really understand the list system now, even though they've done it six times? Do they understand that, or have they just simply gone along and said, 'Oh, I'll vote X and Y, because that's the way it is'?

I think understanding has improved, and also we've seen a list system for European Parliament elections as well, although turnout was pretty low in many of those elections. I think public understanding has improved, but I think there's probably a fair bit of work to be done, especially ahead of this new election, with a focus on a list system, in actually explaining what their vote means and indeed how the individual candidates are elected as Members of the Senedd. So there's a piece of work that would need to be done around that, certainly.

I think it's a very interesting question, because first-past-the-post, of course, is not something that's linked to six elections, it's linked to all the general elections, and therefore it's very well known to the electorate, and the list system is more recent. One could argue that moving to a non-hybrid, moving to a list-only, is a simpler system to explain to people than running two systems, as it were, within the same election. So, again, I come back to effective messaging and making certain that people understand the quite substantial changes that will happen with this Bill.

Jane, did you want to come in with a small supplementary here?

Ie, diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae yna newidiadau enfawr, onid oes, yn dod i mewn, ac rydyn ni am ofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â'r ffiniau hefyd. Felly mae yna system bleidleisio newydd, ac wedyn mae system dros y ffiniau hefyd ac etholaethau newydd hefyd. Oes gyda chi farn neu rywbeth rydych chi'n gallu ei ddweud wrthym ni rŵan sydd yn esbonio sut ydych chi am wneud yn siŵr bod pobl yng Nghymru yn deall y system newydd? Achos mae o'n wahanol—fydd yna ddim enwau, er enghraifft, os ydym ni'n mynd efo'r cynnig yma o ran rhestrau caeedig. Felly, oes gennych chi unrhyw syniadau rŵan, jest inni ddeall yn union sut ydych chi'n bwriadu gwneud yn siŵr bod pobl ar draws Cymru yn deall y system newydd? Diolch.

Wel, yn y gorffennol, yn 2021 a 2016, beth wnaethom ni benderfynu arno ar ôl siarad efo'n partneriaid yn y Senedd, efo'r Llywodraeth a'n partneriaid ar lawr gwlad, oedd datblygu llyfryn a oedd yn cael ei anfon allan at bob un tŷ yng Nghymru yn esbonio beth oedd yn digwydd—bod etholiad yn digwydd ar y dyddiad yma, sut oedd cofrestru ar gyfer yr etholiad a sut oedd pleidleisio, a bach o wybodaeth ar yr etholiad ei hunan. Nawr, dyw llyfryn ddim o hyd y ffordd orau o ddatblygu ac o gyflwyno'r negeseuon yma, ond y broblem, rwy'n credu, a oedd yn ein herbyn ni oedd beth oedd y ffordd orau, os nad llyfryn i bob tŷ yng Nghymru? O'n safbwynt ni, rydyn ni'n hapus ac yn agored ac yn hyblyg o ran sut i gyflwyno'r negeseuon yma. Yn amlwg, dim jest y comisiwn fydd yn gwneud y gwaith; mi fydd partneriaid ar lawr gwlad yn edrych i drafod y system a'r broses newydd efo'u cleientiaid nhw. Bydd awdurdodau lleol hefyd yn edrych ar strategaethau datblygu ymwybyddiaeth y cyhoedd.

Ac mae yna grŵp nawr o dan Fwrdd Cydlynu Etholiadol Cymru, mae yna grŵp am y tro cyntaf sy'n edrych yn benodol ar gyfathrebu. So, bob un swyddog cyfathrebu o bob un awdurdod lleol yn dod at ei gilydd i drio datblygu rhyw fath o strategaeth genedlaethol a fydd yn cael ei rholio allan gan bob un awdurdod, i 'complement-io', fel petai, y gwaith y mae’r comisiwn ac mae'r cyrff cenedlaethol yn ei wneud. So, mae yna syniadau gennym ni, ond rydyn ni hefyd yn hyblyg iawn o ran beth fyddwn ni'n ei wneud a beth yw'r ffordd orau o ran cyflwyno'r wybodaeth yma i bleidleiswyr.

A dwi hefyd yn deall y consérn, ond mae'n bwysig i gofio, fel y mae Rhydian wedi'i ddweud, nad ydy'r Comisiwn Etholiadol ddim ar ei ben ei hun yn y maes yma. Mae yna lawer iawn o gyrff sydd â diddordeb mawr mewn cael y neges allan yn effeithiol. Ac yn eu mysg nhw, wrth gwrs, mae’r ymgyrchwyr gwleidyddol eu hunain a’r pleidiau gwleidyddol eu hunain, sydd efallai â'r diddordeb mwyaf mewn cael y nifer uchaf o etholwyr yn deall y system ac yn medru pleidleisio’n effeithiol. Ac efallai y byddwn ni'n siarad â nhw hefyd, achos mae gennym ni y panel trawsbleidiol sydd yn cyfarfod yn gyson ac yn cael ei gadeirio mewn rota gan un o'r pleidiau. Felly, mae hwnna'n ffordd effeithiol o negeseuo.

Ond y peth dwi mwyaf balch amdano hefyd ydy bod y bwrdd cydlynu, yn y Mesurau yma, yn cael ei wneud yn statudol. Rydyn ni wedi'i argymell dros y blynyddoedd ac rydyn ni'n falch iawn o gael ymateb positif. Rŷn ni wedi ymgyrchu i weld y bwrdd yn cael ei roi ar sail statudol, fel y mae o yn yr Alban, a dwi'n credu y bydd hynna hefyd yn ffordd o gydlynu'r gweinyddwyr etholiadol a’r swyddogion sy’n gyfrifol am etholiadau yn yr awdurdodau lleol.

Sarah.

Thank you very much. So, just to move on as well—a similar line of questioning here—to your views on how the proposal to move to four-year Senedd terms would impact on the likelihood of multiple elections taking place in the same year. And if this was to happen, what mitigating action could be taken to address this, because it would obviously increase pressure on electoral administrators, parties and campaigners and voters?

If I can say, it's not in our gift to determine whether something should be four or five years. All we can do is to make certain that the messaging goes out as to which election is happening and what are the rules of that election. I'm happy to hear that there is a desire on both sides, both in Westminster and in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, for there to be a reasonable harmony about the date of the elections. The main problem for us, of course, is that, with the disappearance of the fixed-term election, the Prime Minister of the day has the right to call an election at whatever time he or she would determine, and that presents a complexity of its own. But I do understand that there has been an agreement that coinciding these dates would not be beneficial to the voter. I've had some projections done, and I think there is a risk that, in 2042, there might be a coinciding date, even without a snap election. But I hope that I will have long given up being an electoral commissioner by then. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much. That's very interesting. And then finally from me, your views on whether a system of recall for Members of the Senedd should be introduced by the Bill, and your views, really, on how this could operate in practice and who would operate it, essentially.

I think recall has worked reasonably well at a Westminster level. There have been some issues relating to the timing of recall, whether the six-week period is too long, where signing stations can be included and the number of signing stations, but generally I think recall has been something that has worked reasonably effectively. I think there are questions as to how it would be introduced for Senedd elections. For parliamentary elections, recall results in a by-election, and the individual candidate or the Member who was forced to stand down can again stand in that by-election. I know that certain members of this committee would probably have more experience of that than I will. That will be very different, because we will not presumably operate a first-past-the-post system for Senedd elections, so how would recall work for a list system? If an individual were to be recalled as a result of the petition process, would that then mean that the next candidate on the list would be moved up and elected? So, I think there are questions there, but we would be more than happy—. If this were to be something that Welsh Government and the Senedd would be interested in exploring further, we'd be more than happy to have those discussions with them. We've a responsibility to provide a report on the recall process in each one of the situations that have occurred across the UK, so we've got some recommendations and thoughts there. And if it would be useful for us to pass on a summary of those reports to the committee, we would be more than happy to do so.

I think that would be wonderful.

I'll take you up on that offer, Rhydian. We'll accept that offer. But also clarification as to whether—you just said that somebody is able to re-stand—in any recall by-elections that have been created, whether the Member has re-stood or not, as well.

Well, yes, it happened in Brecon and Radnorshire, where the Conservative Member was recalled and then stood in the by-election.

Okay.

Yes. Could I just add, about the Brecon and Radnorshire recall and by-election? From personal experience of going around the various polling stations, I think I would like you to consider whether a six-week period is too long. I think this is what Rhydian refers to when he's talking about the practicalities. And although he's put his finger on the fundamental point, which is how do you actually elect somebody when it's not a list system, possibly, any more, that's the fundamental, but the practical point is that, for a returning officer to have a six-week extended period of preparing and holding polling stations for that length of time, and having to have officials manning them—forgive the rather gendered word there—is a real ask. And especially looking at Brecon and Radnorshire, of course, it was an incredibly large constituency, and therefore a spread of polling stations had to be provided for. So, there are real practical obstacles in doing this effectively. And what we found out as well was that the most votes tended to be cast in the first week, because that is when the recall was new in people's minds, people who felt strongly were able to go out, and that actually, in the last five weeks, the amount of interest was remarkably less. So, this is just something to think about, I think, in practical terms.

But we do make recommendations relating to all these measures. There's an issue around transparency as well, but we can include that in the summary of the reports that we can provide to the committee if that would be useful.

Thank you very much for that. Sarah.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you.

Darren.

Thanks. Can I just go back, Chair, if possible, to Elan's comments about the electoral management boards? And obviously, putting those on a statutory footing, that's a positive thing that I think we've heard very positive evidence on, but one of the issues raised by the individual who chairs the board in Scotland was that the current proposal from the Welsh Government is to have that board embedded within the boundary commission, as it were—the new Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru—rather than have it as a stand-alone body that is completely independent. Do you have any views on that at all?

Personally, and I may be out of order in saying this, but I think the two bodies have very, very different remits, and I think it might lead to confusion for them to be embedded one in the other. So, my preference, personally, would be for them to be stand-alone bodies.

Tom.

Just to say, I think there's a kind of a balance on the electoral management board point, where we recognise the Welsh Government's approach, where there are considerable costs potentially to setting the management board up as a new public body, so I think it's fair to say we're kind of watching with interest as to how the independence of that will work while housed within the boundary commission. There are some kinds of legislative safeguards in the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill around what specific functions must be carried out by the electoral management board itself and not by the commission. There are some provisions around the membership, where you'd always have members of the boundary commission in the minority in terms of voting on the management board. So, there are some assurances there from Welsh Government as to the independence, and we know the Welsh Government is alive to this kind of slight concern about its independence, but I think it will be a case of almost watching and waiting. Just to note, as well, we're giving evidence on that Bill this morning as well, actually, so we'll probably—

Thanks for that.

—give some extra detail there.

Thanks for that. I just wanted to follow it up, given that Elan had raised it. And just on the four-year terms issue, obviously, we don't want to conflict with local authority elections or general elections or police and crime commissioner elections, and there's always a risk, as Elan has quite rightly pointed out, when a general election can be called at any time, but clearly, if there are four-year terms for local authority elections, which is something you refer to in your evidence, then that would be better, wouldn't it? Did you want to add anything more to that evidence that you've already submitted?

Yes. It's an interesting one, especially as the White Paper on electoral administration from last year did consult on a move back to four-year terms for local government. I think at the moment, given, as Elan said, the next sort of potential coinciding year for Senedd and local government elections is 2042, it's a case of—. It's not something that we view as an urgent problem that needs to be addressed in this Bill or other Bills currently going through this Senedd, but I think it's something that, within the next few years, it would be good if the Welsh Government, in consultation with local government as well, would kind of come to a view, I suppose, on the kind of long-term approach to local government terms. To be fair, in our written evidence there are legislative provisions to avoid a Senedd and local government election being held on the same day, even if they're scheduled to be held in the same year. But, yes, we just wanted to note that. We are on a very slow collision course to 2042, when those would be in the same year.

It would seem sensible to get it sorted in one of the two Bills currently before the Senedd, though, wouldn't it, if everybody can see it coming?

Yes. It's a little bit of a Rubik's cube, though, isn't it, because of the number of different elections, including the general election, the police and crime, local government, and the Senedd? It's a little bit like if you legislate for one you might push the other one into a problematic position. So, I know it's not very satisfactory for us to say we'll wait and see, but 20 years does seem a reasonable time to wait.

Can I turn now to the residency requirements in the Bill? Obviously, there's a desire by the Government to make sure that people who stand for election to the Senedd in Wales live in Wales, and the test of that, as far as the Bill is concerned, is to make sure that candidates are registered on an electoral roll in a Welsh constituency. Do you foresee any particular problems with that being the qualification criteria for candidacy?

The question will be how enforcement on this new disqualification would work in practice. I know there's a question of whether ROs would be required to check where candidates are registered to vote, and at what point in the process that would take place? I think the WECB and the AEA highlighted to you in their evidence that there's a long-established common-law approach of returning officers taking nomination forms at face value. So, requiring returning officers to make any kind of check would represent a significant deviation from this. As I think you allude to, what would that check look like? How would they enforce it, and at what point, and how much work would that require? We would be reluctant to see anything that forced returning officers to make those kind of checks. I think the key point is that the legal responsibility is on the candidate. There is a structure of support and guidance, including informal checks, provided by returning officers, but also support and guidance by the Electoral Commission and others. Ultimately, it's for the candidate to ensure that he or she is eligible to stand and isn't disqualified, and if that individual is unsure, then they need to take legal advice. If there's an issue, then there's a legal route to follow through the courts after the election.

Tom, you had your hand up.

Yes. Just to add, as well, that there's a separate question with these provisions around the ongoing requirement, then, for an elected member, once elected, to remain on the local government register to avoid becoming disqualified during the course of their term in office. And it's a similar question, I think, from us, as to the candidacy point that Rhydian raised. There's a question, I think, at the moment, as to how that would be monitored, and if it would be monitored how it would be enforced, and who would be responsible for doing so. And just to make clear, I suppose, from our perspective, we see that as something that if there is a monitoring role, that should be an internal process for the Senedd, almost, and certainly not for ROs, whose roles finish from the point of election onwards.

If I could re-emphasise what Rhydian and Tom were saying, I believe it would be a good thing to explore the onus on the candidate himself or herself to declare, to make a declaration, and if that has to be an annual one, or a change-of-circumstances one, it should be a declaration to the Senedd, just as any declarations of interest would be made to the Senedd. So, I think the onus has to be on the honesty and transparency of the individual candidate, otherwise you're going to set up some extra bureaucracy and costs, which would be not the object of the exercise.

Thank you for that. That's an interesting way to potentially address it, because at the moment our understanding is that there's no grace period in the Bill, so if, for example, through automatic voter registration, a Member of the Senedd is suddenly missed, for whatever reason, from the register, they would automatically be disqualified from sitting as a Member immediately, without any opportunity to correct the register or have any kind of redress system. But you're saying that if there was a declaration basis, then that would be, potentially, a better route, which is helpful.

I'm just offering it as one potential way forward.

Just on the automatic registration point, I think, obviously, it remains to be seen how that system looks in practice. We're a long way away from—. We've got pilots still to look at. I suppose, if you were a prospective candidate wanting to make sure that you didn't fall foul of anything in terms of being registered, there will still be the existing process of individual electoral registration, so you'd be able to check in advance, I suppose, that you were registered as well.

But, obviously, the role of the electoral registration officer becomes much more important if immediate disqualification comes from the publication of a register and a Member's not on it. So, there is huge burden, actually, isn't there, on the electoral registration officers to get this right, rather than the candidates to make sure that they are ordinarily resident in Wales, which, of course, is the desire.

Are there other tests, rather than being on an electoral roll, that you think might be more useful to apply? If you're paying council tax, that's a straightforward one, isn't it? If you're paying council tax in Wales and your primary residence is in Wales, you don't have to necessarily be on an electoral roll, do you?

I think, from our perspective, we've just looked at the proposals within the Bill itself, really. They seem workable. There are just a few of those questions still around how it works in practice in terms of that continuing requirement to be on the register, but we could potentially look at that, if that would be helpful.

And just one other question. There has been concern that people could be on two electoral rolls—one in England, one in Wales—because they might have a second home in Wales, and that gives them the qualification to therefore be regarded as being resident in Wales. Do you have any views on that?

Yes, as long as someone appears on the local government register in Wales, they'd be eligible to stand, as you know. But it's worth noting that applications to register to vote from a secondary address are looked at by electoral registration officers on a case-by-case basis. You must be deemed resident, as it states in the guidance, at an address in order to register to vote there.

We do provide guidance to electoral registration officers on this. So, for example, property ownership on its own isn't sufficient to establish if someone is resident at an address, and it will depend on the amount of time that an individual spends there. So, if it's useful, again, we can happily provide a copy of this guidance that's provided to electoral registration officers to the committee, so you can see what we say and what they act on.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Jane.

Dwi am ofyn cwestiynau ar adolygiadau o ffiniau newydd. A'r cwestiwn cyntaf ydy: oes gennych chi farn ar yr amserlen ar gyfer yr adolygiad o ffiniau etholaethol cyn yr etholiad Senedd nesaf, os gwelwch yn dda? Dyna'r cwestiwn cyntaf. Wedyn, mae yna fwriad i gael amser ar ôl y Senedd nesaf hefyd, cyn yr etholiadau yn 2030. Allwch chi jest roi eich barn chi ar y ddau gam yna, os gwelwch yn dda?

Yes, I can come in on that. So, in terms of the timing of the 2026 review, I think, overall, it's workable, given that we're already—. We know that timescales for delivery of Senedd reform for the next election are quite tight anyway. So, I think, in an ideal world, there'd be a little bit more time there, but this is the situation we're in. The Bill, as you'll know, sets a specific deadline for the boundary commission to send its final report to Welsh Ministers by 1 April 2025. I think, from our perspective, that is workable, and there's some legal safeguards in the Bill around the Welsh Ministers having to lay that report and make regulations to give effect to those 16 constituencies as soon as is reasonably practicable.

The only thing we want to flag, and we've done so in our written evidence, is, if there is an unforeseen delay to this process, which we wouldn't expect, but if there was a delay into the summer of 2025 for that review, it does start to create some quite significant concerns for both electoral administrators in terms of planning for the delivery of an election, especially given the new cross-boundary workings that will be required across 16 larger constituencies, and then, for political parties themselves in terms of planning a campaign, arranging for candidates. So, I think the Bill as it's drafted is okay from our perspective on the timings for the initial pairing review, but we really don't want to see a delay into that summer of 2025.

And on your second question, I think, generally, on boundary reviews, it's really a matter for the Senedd and the boundary commission itself. I think the only thing we would really flag in terms of the next boundary review, ahead of the 2030 election, is that I think it would be good, as far as possible, for as much consistency as there can be in terms of constituency names and sizes from 2026-30, just in that you could have consecutive elections from 2021 to 2026 to 2030 where a voter is being asked to vote and it's a different named constituency every time, and that kind of thing. I know the Bill puts that in as a consideration for the boundary commission to consider. So, we're not expecting it to be a problem, but, just from our perspective in terms of voter awareness and confusion, it could be a decade where there's quite a lot of change for voters in terms of what the boundaries look like.

Felly, gaf i jest gadarnhau, os yw hwnna'n iawn, eich bod chi braidd yn bryderus, os yw'r amserlen yn symud dipyn bach, na fydd yna ddigon o amser, yn eich barn chi, i sicrhau bod y broses yn cael ei delifro ar gyfer yr etholiad yn 2026? Rydych chi braidd yn bryderus—ydy hynny'n deg?

Yes, I would describe it as a slight concern, given that the legislation does set aside a specific date by which the boundary commission must send its report, and then those kind of secondary duties then on Welsh Ministers to lay it. So, there's nothing that could be changed on a legislative basis to plan for it; it's just a note of caution that if there was an unforeseen delay, that would cause problems in terms of delivery, yes.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi gwneud yn glir bod gennym ni un egwyddor y byddai isafswm o chwe mis—mai dyna ydy'r egwyddor sydd gennym ni fel comisiwn.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest un cwestiwn arall, ac roeddem ni'n sôn am hyn yn gynt hefyd. Mae gennym ni system newydd lle rydyn ni'n paru'r etholaethau, felly mae hynny'n system hollol newydd i ni gyd, i ddweud y gwir—system lle rydym ni'n paru. Dwi jest eisiau gwybod eto, os gwelwch yn dda, os oes gennych chi syniadau sut y byddwch chi'n gallu esbonio'r system newydd yma i bobl ar draws Cymru, i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gwybod bod yna system newydd ynglŷn â'r ffiniau. Sut ydym ni am sicrhau bod pobl yn gwybod yn union beth sy'n digwydd ynglŷn â pharu'r etholaethau?

Wel, os caf i, jest cyn i Rhydian ddod i mewn yn fwy manwl, ar yr ochr negyddol, mae hon yn her o ran rhoi'r neges allan i'r etholwyr, achos mae hi'n system newydd sbon. Ar yr ochr bositif, mae yna rywbeth hyfryd yn y syniad o adnewyddu'r system etholiadol, ac mae o'n gyfle i ni, efallai, i estyn allan at y pleidleiswyr ac aildanio ychydig o ddiddordeb yn y system. Felly, mae yna ochr negyddol a phositif i hyn, dwi'n meddwl.

Ie. Yr unig beth gallaf i ddweud yw'r un ateb ag y rhoddais i i chi'n gynharach, mewn ffordd. Dŷn ni'n agored ar sut mae cyfathrebu'r system newydd ym mhob ffordd i etholwyr yng Nghymru o ran y neges sy'n rhan o'r ymgyrch ar gyfer pleidleiswyr. Dwi'n credu mai beth fydd yn bwysig yw sut mae'r gwaith hyn yn cael ei gydlynu ar lefel awdurdodau lleol. Mi fydd y bwrdd cydlynu—y bwrdd rheoli newydd, fel y bydd e ar y pryd—. Un o'r pethau gorau am y bwrdd cydlynu, ar hyn o bryd, yw'r ffordd maen nhw wedi gweithio'n rhanbarthol ac yn genedlaethol o ran cysoni negeseuon. Felly, bydd y bwrdd rheoli newydd, dwi'n credu, yn gallu gwneud lot o waith i sicrhau bod y neges yn un briodol i'w cynulleidfaoedd lleol nhw, a bod y bwrdd cyfathrebu o dan y bwrdd rheoli. Mae yna lot o fyrddau, dwi'n gwerthfawrogi, ond bydd y broses newydd yma, y strwythur newydd yma, yn ein helpu ni i allu rhoi'r negeseuon pwysig yma mas.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest un cwestiwn olaf, os gwelwch chi'n dda. Roeddech chi'n sôn am yr awdurdodau lleol a'r rhan maen nhw'n ei chwarae yn y darlun yma. Pwy sy'n gyfrifol am roi'r gwybodaeth am y system newydd a'r ffiniau newydd hefyd i'r awdurdodau lleol? Sut maen nhw'n cael eu cefnogi i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gwybod am y system newydd, yn enwedig pan dŷn ni'n meddwl efallai fydd y cynghorau ddim yn mynd ar draws i'r etholaethau newydd—efallai fydd yna gymysgedd o awdurdodau lleol. Ydych chi'n gyfrifol am weithio efo nhw—[Anghlywadwy.]

Sori. Dwi'n credu bydd y cyfrifoldeb yn cwympo i'r bwrdd rheoli etholiadol newydd. Nhw fydd yn edrych ar sut mae rhedeg yr etholiad, yn bendant. Ond mi fydd yna gyfrifoldeb yna hefyd o ran cyfathrebu ar lefel leol, ac fel roeddwn i'n dweud, o dan y bwrdd rheoli, mae yna fwrdd eilradd sydd yn edrych yn benodol ar gyfathrebu a chyfathrebu etholiadol. Felly, mi fydd y bwrdd hynny yn gyfrifol am sicrhau bod y negeseuon, ar lefel leol, yn gynhwysfawr ac yn gyson.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd.

Darren.

I just want to turn to section 19 of the Bill, which relates to the review that is required to be conducted once the new system has been introduced. There's a timetable for the establishment of a committee—it says it should be within six months of the Senedd elections taking place. But then it sets out criteria and it says that the motion to establish the committee must look at and consider the extent to which elements of a healthy democracy are present in Wales. Now, obviously, as an Electoral Commission, you undertake reviews after every election to see how well those elections have been administered and whether there are any lessons that might be learnt. But to what extent do you think that this duty around the extent to which the elements of a healthy democracy are present in Wales is a useful term to have on the face of the Bill? And what role, more widely, do you think that you can play in helping to contribute to that review, once it takes place?

As you mentioned, we've a statutory duty to publish a report on the administration of the election for the Senedd, and that's normally published in around September, after the election has taken place. But that does really look at the experiences of electoral administrators, of campaigners, and there is some voter information data there. So, what's being suggested is sensible, and I think what's being produced by the commission currently, as set out, would assist you. But if there was something that you as a Senedd would want us to look at in greater detail to include in that report, or as a supplementary to that report—because the wider health of our democracy is quite a grand proposal, in a sense, and it encompasses many, many things—I think we can probably look at what we would want to include, within any statutory report, that would assist you or assist a new committee in doing that work.

Would it not be better to take this clause about the 'extent to which the elements of a healthy democracy are present in Wales', because of the lack of definition of what that means, and the very broad nature of it—would it not be just better to take that out of the Bill and just conduct a simple, straightforward review?

I think that would be a matter for the Senedd and for the committee. But what I'm saying is, what we would include within the report would include views of electoral practitioners, would include views of campaigners and would include views of voters as well as non-party campaigners. So, I think that those three groups are key groups in terms of determining the health of our democracy. It's a question of whether what we do currently would be enough or whether the Senedd would want us to do more as part of this piece of work.

So, just picking up on that—[Interruption.]. Pardon me, Elan. Yes.

Could I just add—? You know, we obviously use statistics on the number of people who cast their votes, the number of people who decided to register, and so there are some elements—or key performance indicators, if you want to call them that—as to what constitutes a healthy democracy. The number of people who participate, and you would be able to track that from report to report. So, rather than set it in stone as a KPI within the Bill, obviously it's a much more sophisticated way of tracking it from election to election.

And can I just pick up on the point that you made there, Rhydian, about the people that you engage in the production of your post-election reviews? Should there be a list of the key stakeholders on the Bill that the Senedd committee must engage with in its review of the implementation of these new arrangements? Voters, candidates et cetera.

I think that would be a matter for you to decide, rather than the commission providing a view on it.

Okay.

Heledd—[Inaudible.]—almost the last question.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Os caf i holi’n benodol, felly, ynglŷn â’r cymorth i’r pleidiau gwleidyddol. Fel dŷch chi’n ymwybodol, o dan adran 12 Deddf Pleidiau Gwleidyddol, Etholiadau a Refferenda 2000, mae’r Comisiwn Etholiadol o dan ddyletswydd i ddosbarthu £2 filiwn y flwyddyn i bleidiau gwleidyddol cymwys. Dydy’r ffigur yma ddim wedi cynyddu ers pan basiwyd y Ddeddf yn 2000, ac fel dŷch chi’n gwybod hefyd, mae plaid yn gymwys, fel maen prawf, os oes ganddyn nhw ddau neu ddwy Aelod yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin. Mae’r arian sydd ar gael yng Nghymru i ddatblygu polisi hefyd yn amrywio pan fod newid mewn system bleidiol gwlad arall, fel yn yr Alban, er enghraifft. Aeth yr arian i lawr gyda dyfodiad plaid Alba.

Efo’r newidiadau sydd rŵan, efo 96 o Aelodau yn arfaethedig yma yng Nghymru, ydych chi’n credu bod y trefniadau yma'n dal yn addas, a beth fyddai’n digwydd mewn sefyllfa, er enghraifft, pe byddai pleidiau newydd yn codi yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol, efallai Llafur Cymru yn torri i ffwrdd o Lafur Prydain ac ati—fyddan nhw wedi cael eu cau allan rhag cael arian i ddatblygu maniffesto Senedd Nghymru os nad oes ganddyn nhw gynrychiolwyr yn San Steffan? Felly, ydy hyn yn rhywbeth yr ydych chi’n edrych arno fo, neu'n rhoi ystyriaeth iddo fo er mwyn sicrhau bod yna gysondeb, felly, o ran y datblygiad o bolisi sydd hefyd, wrth gwrs, yn allweddol bwysig o ran ymgysylltu â'r cyhoedd mewn etholiadau?

Dwi'n credu y byddai unrhyw bolisi tebyg yng Nghymru yn ddibynnol ar ariannu gan Lywodraeth Cymru a beth fyddai angen i'w wneud. Efallai y bydd Elan eisiau dod i mewn ar y pwynt mwy cyffredinol ar y grantiau datblygu polisi yma, ond dŷn ni’n agored, fel efo rhannau eraill o’r ddeddfwriaeth sydd ddim fel petai yn y ddeddfwriaeth ar hyn o bryd, ac efallai ei fod yn rhywbeth i'w drafod yn hwyrach. Dŷn ni'n agored i gael y sgyrsiau yma efo gyda Llywodraeth Cymru os yw hyn yn rhywbeth y bydden nhw â diddordeb i edrych i mewn iddo fe. Ond mae’r pwynt bod angen i bleidiau gwleidyddol yng Nghymru edrych ar bolisïau ac i edrych ar ledaenu'r neges a sut i gyfathrebu efo pleidleiswyr yn un dilys.

Dwi'n cytuno eich bod chi wedi rhoi enghraifft dybiedig dda, sydd yn her i bawb. Yr unig beth allaf i ei ddweud ydy bod perthynas y comisiwn, nid yn unig gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, ond wrth gwrs gyda Llefarydd y Tŷ Cyffredin—mae yna ffyrdd o fedru codi materion fel hyn ac efallai rhoi rhagrybudd bod angen ailedrych ymhen amser ar y system. Dwi ddim yn gallu gwneud unrhyw addewid yn fan hyn, ond yn sicr mae yna rai anomalies yn y system, fel y mae datganoli yn datblygu ac yn esblygu.

I'll ask the closing question, because I'm aware we've just gone past the time we were allocated. Obviously, the Bill is as it is, and you've given us in your evidence a clear indication as to what the role of the commission is in addressing elections here in Wales. Is there anything missing in the Bill that actually would make the work of the commission better, would allow us to actually deliver elections far more democratically and which ensures as much involvement of the voter as possible? Is there anything that the Bill misses in helping you to deliver that?

I don't think so. I think the current responsibilities bestowed upon the commission in terms of public awareness and around guidance are ample. There may be a question—. Really, my thoughts, coming from this discussion are that there may be a question around what we produce and what we include in our statutory report. Would the Senedd deem what we currently plan on including within statutory reports for Senedd elections—is that enough, or would you like to see more from us in terms of research and reporting and for it to be all-encompassing or a wider capture of public opinion and other opinion? So, there may be something there, but I don't think there's a fundamental omission there in terms of something that doesn't allow us to do our work.

And I think, Rhydian, that it would be in order for us to be asked to do more work of that kind without it necessarily being in the Bill.

Okay. Well, on that point, we've gone past our allocated time, so can I thank you all for your contributions and evidence this morning? As you know, you will receive a copy of the transcript. If you identify any factual inaccuracies, please let the clerking team know as soon as possible and we'll get them corrected. Can I thank you once again for your time this morning?

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I now propose that we take a break before our next session. So, we'll break until 10.45 a.m.