Children, Young People, and Education Committee

We'll move on to the first item on our agenda, and that is the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill. It's our first evidence session. I'd like to welcome Sam Rowlands, the Member in charge of this Bill, and with him, he has Dr Dave Harvey, a member of the Senedd support staff—welcome—and Michael Dauncey, a Senedd researcher, and Jen Cottle, Legal Services in the Senedd. Thank you very much for joining us. As you can imagine, Members have a number of questions to put to you this morning. We'll make a start on some general issues, and first of all, around the need for legislation. Why do you think this legislation is required to ensure that children access residential outdoor education? What problem is the Bill aiming to solve and why isn't policy change sufficient?

First of all, thank you very much for having me and my team with me here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to share this with you. I was really pleased to be able to present the Bill to the Senedd last week. It's a little bit strange being on the opposite side of the desk in a committee, so, at moments, if you could just bear with me as I flick through some of my notes and references to the explanatory memorandum, I'd appreciate that as well.

So, on the particular point on the need for the legislation, I would have thought that Members around the table and online as well certainly would sign up to the benefits of outdoor residential education. We know that there are significant benefits in terms of the effect that outdoor education has on the mental health of our young people and physical health in terms of engagement with the outdoors. We know that there is evidence to show engagement with the environment and the bigger picture, the difference that makes.

I found it very interesting, actually, some of the Welsh Government's own research on this and in particular on the environmental issue. Natural Resources Wales—and it's highlighted in the explanatory memorandum—referred to a natural progression to nature connection and that the first couple of steps of children being out in nature, in our natural environment, suddenly awakens them to the importance of our natural environment. So, those types of benefits are clearly laid out within the explanatory memorandum. We know there are also some really good opportunities, aside from the expected benefits, around things like a better understanding of our Welsh culture, our language as well, and, overall, the potential knock-on effect of all of this on the public purse through social return on investment as well, which I expect there may be questions on later on in this session.

Then, I guess, to the point of why the need for legislation, I suppose, fundamentally, you legislate for what you think is important, and if you want something to be guaranteed, to be certain for people, then you put that into law. We have a case at the moment where, yes, many children do experience these opportunities, but it's not an entitlement; it's seen as an enrichment to their education. I fundamentally believe that these residential outdoor educational experiences do so much for a young person's learning, education, and do so much for teacher engagement in the classroom beyond the understanding of the learner. Actually, there's a huge amount of evidence and, again, it outlines this in the explanatory memorandum, to show that things like four nights away with a classroom teacher builds as much understanding of a learner as a whole year sat in a classroom. We know that the teacher-learner relationship is so important: the better you know your students, the better you'll be able to frame education that is suitable for them as well.

So, the fundamental point is that you legislate for what you think is important. If you want something to definitely be in place, Government will legislate for that to happen. Rather than being something that is a nice to have, a possibility for some learners, this will be a guarantee for every student, at some point in their schooling, to have that great experience and have all the benefits that I've outlined as well.

Thank you, Sam. We're aware that there are some significant changes happening in the education system at the moment; we've seen them with the additional learning needs reforms and the new curriculum, for example. Do you think that now really is the right time to introduce new requirements on schools, when those significant reforms are already taking place?

Yes, I think the time's never been better, actually. This is the perfect time to bring in something like residential outdoor education as an entitlement, because we are still fairly early days when it comes to the Curriculum for Wales, so I think it would be a good time to bring this in within the curriculum. Things aren't set in stone in terms of where the Curriculum for Wales is.

And then the other part in terms of timing is that you, I guess, would have received evidence as a committee already about the post-COVID impact on education and for learners. I've already highlighted the benefits in terms of mental health of this type of experience. We know that the mental health impact on our young people is significant at the moment. I think Government needs to act quickly to bring in measures that support learners at this time, and this is a really good opportunity to help solve some of the issues that our young people are working through post COVID. So, yes, it's good timing from a Curriculum for Wales point of view, but also it's good timing in terms of post COVID as well.

Of course, ALN reforms are an important point to consider at the moment, and my Bill in particular looks to ensure that every child has the opportunity of these experiences, rather than some children being excluded from these experiences, which goes back to that first point about the need for legislation to ensure that every child has this opportunity and some children aren't excluded for all sorts of, perhaps, different reasons.

Thank you, Sam. I'll just bring in James Evans. James.

Really quickly on this point. Legislation is something I take quite a keen interest in, so I was wondering if you looked at the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 to see if there were any regulation-making powers within that current piece of legislation that we have here that could deliver the aims of the Bill without requiring new primary legislation.

My understanding is that, because the way I've framed the Bill is to put it within the curriculum, primary legislation is needed to make the changes to the curriculum, and that's why I've chosen the route that I've chosen. I'm not sure if Jen wants to expand any further on that point on the legislation.

Yes. I think, really, to just echo what you just said there: because of the importance that the Member felt in relation to residential outdoor education, it was felt that primary legislation would be the best way to address it.

Thank you.

Thank you, James. Just finally from me: it's important that local authorities and schools have the flexibility to respond to the needs of learners in their areas. What would you say to people who suggest that the Bill is over-legislating?

I'd suggest that perhaps they read the Bill. The Bill is actually very flexible in terms of what it looks to do and how it looks to provide it. I've clearly set out on the face of the Bill that the guidance to be issued by the Minister must provide that, first of all, it's not compulsory for pupils to attend, so when it comes to flexibility, that is the very first part of that. And then there's a lot of flexibility within there, both for the Minister in terms of the guidance, but then for the schools and the way in which they deliver the principles of the Bill. Because it comes back to this broader point that we need to make sure that—and it fits within the Curriculum for Wales, that teachers are providing a curriculum that best fits the needs of the learners, and the Bill I think clearly does that. So, I'm not sure if any of my colleagues wants to add anything further to that point. No.

Okay, thank you, Sam. We'll move on to questions now from Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. It's great to see you, Sam. I prepared for today by visiting Bryntysilio Outdoor Education Centre just outside Llangollen. I know you're familiar with it, and it's a fantastic place, gives incredible experiences to loads of young people, so I know the value of outdoor education. But in terms of current provision, 'residential outdoor education' isn't defined in the Bill, so are you able to outline what exactly is meant by 'residential outdoor education', and will the lack of a definition result in an inconsistent offering across schools, do you think?

Thank you for the question, Ken, and I'm glad you've been able to get to a fantastic outdoor education centre. On that point, it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge some of the great centres that do currently provide, yes, a great service to our schools and to our young people in particular. I'm glad you've had the chance to get to see one of those.

In terms of the definition of 'residential outdoor education', it's not on the face of the Bill, but I've clearly outlined it in my explanatory memorandum. I'm happy to read that out loud to you, but it may be better for the sake of minutes to say that it's in the explanatory memorandum: paragraphs 20 and 21 outline very clearly what the definition of 'residential outdoor education' is.

Thank you, Sam. The EM also highlights the data challenges in terms of understanding how many children are currently accessing residential outdoor education. Have you been able to overcome the data issues in identifying a need for the Bill and the proposed solution?

Yes, thanks, Ken. Data was a really interesting point when I first started work on this. I don't mean to take Members back on too far a journey, but my name got pulled out of a hat for this in July 2022. I know a Member in this committee is going through a similar sort of experience that I went through in terms of a private Member's Bill, and it's an interesting journey, shall we say? I identified fairly early on that, like with most of these things, you do need to have data to back up what it is that you're saying. And it became quite apparent quite quickly the way in which to do that. So, of the 22 local authorities that exist in Wales, 21 of them use a system called EVOLVE, which is a system that helps those local authorities to manage the process by which children have these experiences. So, I spent a huge amount of time—or most certainly my team did, and let's give them the credit for this—working with EVOLVE as an organisation to pull out the data that was necessary to provide the information that's outlined within the explanatory memorandum. It's fair to say that a picture grew over time and the first set of data wasn't perhaps what was best or most useful in terms of evidence gathering for this, because, I guess, they hadn't needed to share the level of detail that I was after to inform this Bill.

I also undertook a survey through the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel—who, I think, off the top of my head, surveyed around 300 schools—as a form of getting data as well. Perhaps, if you don't mind, I'll bring in Dave Harvey into this as well perhaps to talk about the data point because Dave probably did most of the legwork around this, with Michael as well, but I don't know if Dave wants to come in first and speak to the point around how data was used in the explanatory memorandum and how—I think to address Ken's question about overcoming the data issues.

Thanks, Sam. Yes, the initial survey—the statistical overview that the Outdoor Education Advisers' Panel did—gave us a snapshot, but the limited number of responses, which is typical for surveys, gave us a picture that potentially emphasised the people, or was responded to by people, who were already attending things. So, we had a figure that said that 5 per cent of schools weren't going. The EVOLVE data, then, when we went to EVOLVE, gave us a much greater depth of understanding in terms of what was actually happening. And Wales is quite unique in terms of the fact that there are no multi-academy trusts opting out of doing things. We haven't got authorities doing all sorts of other different versions of things. So, we've got a very high percentage of data that's actually relevant to what's going on. So, 21 out of 22 authorities gives us quite a lot of confidence in what we've got.

The data that EVOLVE provided us with was many and varied across all sorts of things. The stuff that's in the explanatory memorandum is an overview that is in line with the data protection and privacy policy that EVOLVE have. We've actually got far more richness of data in terms of local authority breakdown and all sorts of things. So, the information that we've got in there, we're pretty confident about—it's as good as we can get at this point.

Thank you. That's really helpful. Sorry, Ken, hold on a second, Michael wants to come in.

Yes, just to add to that, so there's some data presented in the explanatory memorandum, at paragraphs 40 to 42, showing the current levels of how many schools are organising outdoor education residentials. Not only does that show that not all schools are organising them for whatever reason, but also shows that there is quite a lot of variation between different local authorities, and in some parts of Wales—essentially, pupils have more chance of getting to go on an outdoor residential, depending on where they live. It's one of the things that I think the Bill is trying to address.

Yes. And that's the point I guess—it comes back to the fundamental reason why I think the Bill should exist, which is equity of access for all, which I think is something that the Welsh Government would be keen to support as well.

Okay. Ken, and then I'll bring Laura in.

Yes, so what you've just highlighted is very much a social justice issue for young people. Now, the Bill is, I think, generally being identified as something relating specifically to education, but actually, contained within the Bill, would you agree, there is considerable potential for economic development benefits, particularly in rural areas? We could see a rise in employment within the adventure tourism industry, for example. There are also very clear health and well-being benefits and also there are probable benefits in terms of tackling poverty. So, do you think that this Bill should be seen by the Government as something that is a cross-Government benefit rather than strictly being seen as something relating to education and, therefore, the education budget?

I couldn't agree more with that broader point, because the benefits aren't just about the educational attainment that a child will receive as a result of this—it's probably, more importantly, more than that actually. The mental health side in particular—there's so much evidence to show that time in the outdoors—. Instinctively, if I'm a bit stressed, I go for a walk with the dog and I guess that many people around the table may do similar things, but for, unfortunately, a significant number of people who haven't had those experiences of being outside and those outdoor adventure experiences aren't confident to access those spaces that would certainly help them. Sorry, Ken, I'm getting sidetracked. The point is that, yes, it's not just about an education issue. And I was a bit surprised by the Minister's response when he talked about the funding in that, when he responded to my introduction of the Bill last week, he was talking about it within the context of an education budget only. I've never framed it within that at all. I think it's a Welsh Government priority, I just think the best place I think it sits from a legislation point of view is within the Curriculum for Wales. But, absolutely, from an economic opportunity point of view, resilience for the sector, our rural communities, what they have to offer and the sustainability of our rural communities, keeping young people in our rural communities, having these skills and developing this interest will make a big difference in the long run.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. I'll just bring Laura Jones in. Laura.

Thanks, Chair. I was just going to reiterate the same things. Just on the equality point, really, and the fact that this has cross-portfolio benefits, not just education. So, it has already been covered. But the specific point I wanted to make is that we are acutely aware, particularly with our recent review, that ALN and disabled children are more likely to miss out on school trips et cetera at the moment, due to costs and all the other things that come with it. So, this Bill would be hugely beneficial, obviously in that regard, ensuring that they can take part. Thanks. That's all.

Thank you.

Thanks. Do you want me to respond to that point?

Yes.

Yes, again, the intention of the Bill clearly sets out that this is about access and opportunity of access for all. We need to be careful, I guess, in making sure that we differentiate between ALN and then special schools and the provision that they provide in that, obviously, a lot of our ALN learners are in our mainstream schools, but we do know, from our special schools point of view, of the 30 or so special schools we do have, only nine of those last year enabled this provision to take place. Now, there may be all sorts of reasons for that, but I think, in terms of equity of access and opportunity, this Bill would look to level the playing field.

Thanks, Sam. Questions now from James Evans. James.

Thank you. Equity of access is really important. Accessing the outdoors is one thing I think every child should have the opportunity to do, and many children love accessing the outdoors. But on the point that Laura Anne Jones said, that many children can't because of disabilities or mental health conditions, you said your Bill aims to do this, but I want to know how is your Bill going to ensure that there is equal access for everybody to access this piece of legislation on outdoor education.

So, fundamentally, we have to understand why some children don't currently access this, and the research that I've undertaken clearly shows that the No. 1 barrier is financial constraints, because of the cost to many families. And Members around the table, or virtually, may have different experiences of this, depending on the areas they represent. And I guess that's the point that Michael made earlier, that it's because it's not an entitlement, because it is an enrichment, there's such a variation of opportunity across Wales. So, the fundamental answer to that is that this will allow that opportunity because it will be a funded experience. So, the No. 1 barrier being financial constraints, this is the thing that will remove that largest barrier that's there.

Okay, because in the consultation, one of the barriers that was identified was the cost of—. I know how much a good pair of walking boots cost and a good coat, and they're not cheap, but these costs weren't included on the face of the Bill. So, I'm just wondering why they weren't included on the face of the Bill and how you think that people can overcome that barrier as well to accessing that outdoor education.

Yes, so, again, I've had a great opportunity over the last 18 months to meet with and visit lots of outdoor education centres, and one of the things I noticed and hadn't appreciated most of all was actually the equipment that they have on site and the availability of that equipment and the expectations in terms of what they would be providing to the children that come along. I mean, I assume, as a committee, you'll be visiting one of these centres at some point to see this at first-hand as well, as part of your evidence taking, but that struck me as something where the equipment they have available to them is pretty clear. Again, in terms of research, the most that you'd expect children usually to have to bring along to these might be a pair of wellies—and actually, for those centres that I've visited, they've explained that they have stocks of wellies available for any children who perhaps can't bring those along, as well. And then, within the guidance that's on the face of the Bill, whilst it doesn't list the actual items that may exactly be covered, the Bill does say that funding must be provided to ensure that these experiences are available. So, the Welsh Minister will

'pay a local authority an amount sufficient to enable the function'

conferred under that. So, if the Welsh Minister feels as though that needs to be adjusted differently, then they're able to do that. I'm not sure if any other colleagues want to say anything further to that broader point? Michael?

Yes. As you said, Sam—and Dave might be able to help me out with this as well—any equipment or clothing that is specifically needed for the activity that's being undertaken would normally be provided by the centre, but if it's something like a coat or suitable footwear, something that is a bit more kind of general and not necessarily specific to that activity, then the expectation is that participants would have those themselves. The Welsh Government does have a school essentials grant, which provides funding to households of pupils eligible for free school meals annually for things like school uniform, other associated costs with education, so maybe that could be used by families to buy things like coats and suitable footwear as well.

So, that would be an additional cost to Government, then, wouldn't it—if this Bill comes in and these were essential items that needed to be provided, it would be an additional cost the Government would have to fund.

But I think the equipment that you'd expect to have to need for the residential outdoor visits would already be available at the centre—that equipment that's required for the experiences that they have to undertake. A child would usually require a coat for school in the same way a child would require a coat to go on a residential. If it's a more significant activity that requires a more substantial, waterproof coat, the centres would be providing those already, as they do currently. And let's not forget this, it's not about a whole new industry being created—many children already have these great experiences, what's trying to be resolved here is that equity of access for all children. So, these centres do currently exist and they do currently provide these great experiences for thousands of children every single year, but that's not available to all children, that's the point we're trying to deal with.

I'm just going to bring Heledd in on this point.

Sorry.

Do you not accept, though, that there is a crisis at the moment? We've heard of people not being able to afford even a pair of shoes for school, and that some children may only have one pair of shoes. The school essentials grant isn't going far enough, because children grow, their needs differ. We've been hearing lots of evidence about people wanting to see that expanded. I take your point in terms of the actual things that are needed, but if you're a parent and your child is going on one of these courses, you get a long list of things that they have to bring. It's multiple pairs of shoes, because in lots of the activities they get soaking wet, and it's not just a pair of wellingtons; it's multiple coats and different types of coats; it's a number of jumpers, and a number of different things. And, yes, they often say that it's old coats. It can include a sleeping bag, a pillow. Also, pocket money, because in many of these centres, you have the opportunity—maybe there's a tuck shop or something, so that's a £10 or £15 cost. I just worry that the school essentials grant, I don't think, will be able to meet that unless it's expanded. So, in terms of those existing barriers that perhaps exist, what other consideration has been given, because I think just removing that cost doesn't mean that parents will be able to meet that long list that's needed? So, to be honest, I was just a bit concerned—. I found that response a bit flippant perhaps.

Okay. I didn't mean it to sound flippant, so apologies if that's the way it came across. You're right, there are real challenges for many families. This Bill certainly looks to remove one of those biggest challenges, which is the opportunity to even go in the first place, and the funding for that in the very first place. Perhaps that's something I'll be happy to receive as a recommendation or feedback from the committee to consider further. I'm absolutely open to that. I'm not saying that everything is perfect within this from day one. But I also think there's probably a conversation there for providers as well, and this is what will be very interesting about this Bill, because if it does go through as part of legislation in our curriculum, there's a more secure conversation to have with providers around the types of expectations, and, to your point, Heledd, in particular, the expectations that they may have on parents. They'll be an even more important partner in this provision for our children, and therefore as an even more important partner, I think there's a conversation that could be had with them as to the expectations they put on children and families for the types of things that would be expected to come along. I expect you'll—. Actually, I know you'll be hearing from some providers. It might be interesting to hear from their point of view about some of the opportunities they see in being flexible with the types of equipment that may be required.

Thank you, Sam. I'll just bring in Laura Jones, before going back to James.

Thanks for that, Sam. Just building on what you've just said, it would be interesting to have those conversations with providers, perhaps, and maybe look into small businesses or providers themselves in terms of sponsorship or donations in that sort of regard, in terms of all the equipment and things, or even parent, teacher and friends association funding, of course—some schools are very good at that. No doubt this would encourage repeat visits, so it might be something that they feel is a good investment, the providers. Those are just my thoughts. I don't know what you think about it.

Thanks, Laura, for that point. Again, I couldn't disagree with that at all. Perhaps this is a question you may be asking later on as well, but it is an important point around the security of the provision in the long run as well. So, if this Bill was in place, then the whole sector itself would know for certain that a specific number of children will be coming through those centres for x number of years in front of them, so it will allow them to invest better into things like equipment, but also into the infrastructure on the sites as well.

Thanks, Sam. I'll go back to James.

This is my last question, Sam. As you know, mental health is a major thing that I focus on quite a lot here. One thing that came up in the consultation and the young person's consultation shows that there are anxiety issues with children and especially their parents as well, about accessing outdoor education and is it right for them. This isn't addressed in the Bill, but I'd just like to know what you think could be done to address the anxiety issues for parents and children to make sure they can actually go and access outdoor education, because we all know how beneficial being in the outdoors is for the overall mental health and well-being of young people.

I think you're absolutely right to point to the anxiety some people may feel having these experiences. I think there are a few things to consider within this in terms of anxiety. In the explanatory memorandum, I point to a piece of work that was about the concerns that children experience currently in the classroom. I'm just going to read out a quote from that. It's actually the Welsh Government's own research. I'll read out directly from paragraph 28 in my explanatory memorandum. It says:

'School visits, including outdoor education residentials, are highlighted as an area of concern, the guidance further stating that ”missing out on the ability to participate fully in school life due to costs...results in learners' low self-esteem, confidence and wellbeing”.'

So, in terms of tackling areas of anxiety, this Bill would look to tackle that anxiety that learners feel in the first instance, of not being able to access these experiences. The second anxiety that this would look to try and deal with is the anxiety that parents and families feel in being able to afford this for their children. As Heledd pointed to earlier, the letter comes home to parents, and I think for a lot of families that anxiety of being able to pay for that experience must be very real and very significant for them. It probably puts them under pressure significantly, as they seek to ensure that their child has that great experience. That's another area of anxiety and stress that this would look to alleviate. So, there are examples and references within the explanatory memorandum that point to this.

In terms of that further anxiety, I guess there's a separation anxiety. As a parent of three young children, I know what that feels like when one of my little ones goes away, even for a night, or a few nights away. It can be anxious for me as a parent, and, I guess, for my child as well. But I think it's really important that we help to put things in place that help develop independence. And again, this Bill is not compelling people to have these experiences. If, ultimately, it is a real concern, people aren't being forced to have these experiences.

And on that point of independence, it was interesting that in Estyn's most recent round of inspections, 64 of the primary schools that were inspected—so 29 per cent of the primary schools that were inspected by Estyn last year—received a recommendation relating to improving opportunities for learners to develop their independence, which will then go on to build resilience in terms of long-term mental health issues as well.

So, I'm not saying that all anxieties would be resolved overnight with this Bill, but I think it does, as I say, to reiterate, go some way to deal with some anxieties of children not having experiences, parents not being able to afford it, and it puts in place a programme where those options are available to build that experience of independence as well. I'm not sure if colleagues want to add anything further to that.

Just to say that 'anxiety' gets used as a very broad term, and it's actually multifaceted, depending on who you're looking at and what perspective you're taking. I think the question is a big one, because, actually, there are many different bits, as Sam's outlined, that actually start to address each of these different bits. Some of the research says—I can't remember the actual figure off the top of my head—that a high percentage of people have experienced anxiety. When you look at the question, it's 'Have you felt anxious in the last whatever?' So, yes, that then translates that, and I think we have to be careful in terms of that, but we also have to be completely mindful that everything that we're doing, or proposing to do, is actually going to contribute somehow, hopefully, to addressing some of these issues.

Thank you. Thank you for that, Chair.

Thank you. We've got questions from Buffy Williams now.

Thank you, Chair. It's nice to see you this morning, Sam. The explanatory memorandum acknowledges that the Bill does not include children who are educated otherwise than at school and those in pupil referral units. It also says that it is hoped the Welsh Government will consider how they can be offered it. Isn't it a missed opportunity to include them within the Bill's provisions, given that the learners are already likely to be disadvantaged? And how would you like to see the Welsh Government taking this forward? Also, why isn't it included as a requirement on the face of the Bill?

Thanks, Buffy, for that question. I'll be really honest with the committee, this has been something I've really grappled with through the process of this Bill being shaped and being formed, because, as Buffy rightly pointed out, many of those children in pupil referral units, as an example, are the ones who would really benefit from these experiences. And there are some great examples; I'm not sure if the committee will get the chance to look at some of these, but there's a great project here in Cardiff, actually, where Cardiff Council have done some really good work with children who need specialist support. So, I'd recommend, if you get a chance, to speak with Cardiff Council about that.

But coming back to the Bill, and the face of the Bill itself, it comes back to where I felt best the Bill should fit, and it's within the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021. Within Welsh Government's own guidance—and I'll read this to you—they themselves say:

'Due to their size, their rapidly changing role and the type of pupils they receive, it's impractical to apply to PRUs the same range of legislative requirements that apply to mainstream and special schools.'

So, I think the Welsh Government themselves acknowledge that the way in which PRUs may be treated, from a curriculm point of view, may not always be exactly as maintained schools are. We know that there is often movement in and out of PRUs of learners as well, so trying to manage that, in terms of the access to these opportunities, I think, is a challenge for them as well. But none of what I've done removes the opportunity for the Welsh Government to do this and to provide this opportunity if they felt that that was appropriate and necessary. And, of course, there are other ways in which children are educated that aren't addressed within this Bill either—so, those who elect to home educate, for example. The Bill doesn't look to provide them with the same guaranteed opportunity. So, there are other examples, not just within pupil referral units.

But I'd be interested if the committee had a recommendation around that as well. It was just how do we practically put something within a piece of legislation that is something that I think is deliverable within maintained schools. But I certainly acknowledge there are opportunities within pupil referral units as well. I'm not sure if anybody else wants to add anything to that. I think I'm comfortable with that.

Thank you, Sam. How will the Bill address the ad-hoc nature of current provision? Isn't it a missed opportunity to create a standard offer given the onus will still be on schools to organise residential outdoor education visits?

I'm really sorry, I missed the very last part of that, Buffy. Would you just be able to say that again? Sorry.

Isn't it a missed opportunity to create a standard offer given the onus will still be on schools to organise residential outdoor education visits?

Thank you. I guess there is a temptation to put something in place that is exactly the same for every school across Wales. I think that flies in the face, though, of the intentions of the Curriculum for Wales, which is very much about schools themselves shaping the curriculum for what works best for their learners. So, yes, I think the spirit of the Curriculum for Wales would say that teachers and schools know best for their learners. The reason why there's a lot of flexibility within this is for schools and teachers to seek out the provision that works best for the children—and, actually, the time that is right for their children as well. Because, again, I haven't outlined in the Bill a year group or an age in which I think it should happen. I'm sure the committee knows that there are similar Bills going through the Scottish Parliament and through the Westminster Parliament as well. I know colleagues there have stipulated an exact age. That's not something that I've done, because I think the right thing to do is put it in the hands of teachers and schools as to what they think is best for the children, and what they're learning at the time. It may be a great experience that relates to their area of learning. They'll be able to expand their knowledge and expand their understanding of that learning by having that experience at the right time in the right place. And there are all sorts of different types of centres and experiences you can go to, depending on what is most appropriate for those learners, and I trust teachers to make that decision in the best way possible.

Thank you. Section 2 of the Bill requires the Welsh Ministers to pay a local authority an amount sufficient to enable residential outdoor education to be carried out. The regulatory impact assessment includes costings for teacher cover. Could you explicitly confirm that the cost of teacher cover will be included?

Yes, absolutely. It's a piece of work that's outlined, as you say, within the explanatory memorandum as well. So, going back to the Bill itself—sorry to do this—there is section 2, 64B, the funding bit that you're referring to:

'The Welsh Ministers must pay a local authority an amount sufficient to enable functions'.

And then the guidance sets out how that should look. And then, towards the bottom of the guidance there, it says it may make provision in respect of schools’ staff costs in respect of residential outdoor education. So, I expect assessments to be made by the Welsh Government within this. I've made an assessment of what I think that may look like within the explanatory memorandum; I'm sure Members can refer to that at their leisure. But most of the experiences currently happen within year 6, within a primary school setting. Most experiences—teachers happily go along with their class, because they recognise the importance of that experience with their learners. So, in that setting, it's fairly straightforward; there's often not necessarily the need to backfill in terms of supply. I think for high school it's more complicated, because, clearly, teachers are covering a number of different classes within a high school setting. So, that's why, within the cost section of the explanatory memorandum, that point is made within there. I'm not sure if any colleagues want to add anything to that from the teacher side. Dave.

And the extreme end of that spectrum is the additional learning needs and the special schools, where there is a very high staffing ratio required, and the knock-ons across the school are obviously higher as well. So, the staffing bit is essential at that end, whereas it's less significant at the primary school end. So, there is a spectrum of that provision.

Yes, and, just for clarity, in the explanatory memorandum, the teacher cover costs are calculated within paragraph 209—there's clearly the teacher cost in there.

Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Okay. Questions now from Heledd Fychan. Heledd.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Byddaf yn siarad yn Gymraeg. Un o'r pethau efallai sydd wedi codi ydy'r capasiti posib o fewn y sector addysg awyr agored i ddarparu ar gyfer beth fyddai'n gynnydd, gobeithio, o ran nifer yr ysgolion yng Nghymru fyddai'n defnyddio eu canolfannau nhw. Ydych chi yn sicr bod y capasiti yna gan y sector?

Yes, I think it's a really important point: there's no point having something in place that can't be provided for. So, I think we are blessed in Wales with the number of outdoor activity centres that there are. I believe that there are around 50 here in Wales at the moment, which is pretty significant, considering the size of the nation that we are. Many of those centres aren't open 12 months of the year, so there's definitely capacity in terms of that; many of them shut between December and March, not necessarily the nicest time of the year for our learners to be out in the wilds—I completely accept that—but there is definitely capacity from a calendar point of view for that.

I did undertake a survey with the sector as well to better understand this. So, if you don't mind, just for a moment just to find that information within here as well—.

Ie, wrth gwrs.

So, the—. Just give me one second on this one here. So, yes, of the 50 that we surveyed, the 50 that are in Wales, 31 of them said that they would have capacity for additional residential bookings. The number of spaces spread across those 50 centres—the number of bed spaces—is around 6,000 a week. They acknowledge that it's, as I say, currently not maximised. But, again, the important point, I guess, is that, as I said earlier, if there's a piece of legislation that guarantees an experience for every learner, there's a real incentive for them to invest in their existing estates and existing assets.

It was interesting, I was at Glan-llyn, the Urdd centre, a few months ago, and they have recently invested in their space there. And there are opportunities in places like that for further investment, but they don't have any guarantee that—. It's likely that children will continue to access these experiences, but the guarantee's not there, so it's a bigger risk on their part at the moment. So, I think you are spending some time with at least a representative of providers—I think it'd be a good question for them as well—but my research and my understanding is that there is existing capacity because of the way the calendar is set up, but capacity could be increased also by further investment.

Diolch. Gan eich bod chi wedi cyfeirio at yr Urdd, efallai os caf i ofyn, felly, yn benodol o ran—. Rydych chi'n dweud yn y Bil fod yn rhaid cynnig darpariaeth yn Gymraeg, ond, os gofynnir am hynny, yn amlwg mae o hefyd yn dibynnu ar argaeledd. Mae'r Urdd wedi rhoi tystiolaeth i ni, ac roedd hi'n ddifyr nodi bod 61 y cant yn dod o ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, sydd efallai'n syndod i rai pobl. Onid ydych chi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig efallai o fewn y Bil yma i wneud yr elfen yna'n gryfach o ran y Gymraeg a'r potensial o ran annog bod hwn yn gyfle o ran y ffordd rydyn ni'n mynd efo'r cwricwlwm newydd a'r pwyslais sydd o 'Cymraeg 2050', efo'r angen i gynyddu faint o ddefnydd a hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg sy'n cael ei wneud mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg? Yn lle jest ateb y galw, onid ydych chi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle o fewn hyn i greu darpariaeth Gymraeg a normaleiddio hynny o fewn y Bil hwn, fel bod pob plentyn, drwy hyn, yn cael cyfle hefyd i brofi mwynhau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg?

Yes. It's a really important point, and I think it is pretty strong within the Bill already—having it there that they

'must provide that residential outdoor education be provided in Welsh'.

I've had to include 'subject to availability' within there, but that's a challenge I think for the sector to increase the availability, and

'where requested by a school'.

I've noted, with the 'Cymraeg 2050' ambition, schools are looking to expand their use of Cymraeg within the classroom and within learners already. I've observed myself—and I'm sure you have as a committee—that only increasing. And I agree that these experiences are probably some of the best ways in which children can engage with learning Welsh. My own children go to an English-medium school and went to Glan-llyn, because that's what the school want to do and what's best for those learners.

I think schools, with the knowledge that the capacity is there and the opportunity is there, would engage with this, because for them—. I mean, why wouldn't they? Because we all want to see Welsh expanded within Wales and within learning, and this is a great way of them doing that, without having a significant burden on the work that they have to do. The bigger challenge I think is how do we ensure more that Welsh provision is available. I don't know if you're taking evidence from the the Outdoor Partnership. It's a fantastic organisation, who do specific work to train their outdoor pursuit teachers and tutors in Cymraeg. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation though, because you've got to train more people in Welsh with the skills as well, but you also need to make sure that children are accessing those spaces at the same time.

But the broader point is important, and I think it's strong within the Bill. I purposely wanted to make sure it was within here, and not just that the provision is there. You'll notice from the Bill that there's a provision to promote an understanding of Welsh language and culture; I think that's, in some ways, more important. It's not just about learning what the Welsh word might be for 'canoe' or 'kayak' or whatever, it's actually understanding the context around that—the cynefin I think is a really important part of what this is about. I'm not sure if colleagues want to expand on that at all.

Can I—? Yes, I think the provision in Welsh—. To draw back on what Sam said about the Outdoor Partnership, that came from a recognition that there weren't front-line Welsh-speaking instructors in the sector. There were many Welsh speakers in domestic roles, but there weren't them leading sessions. So, the vision, the visibility of Welsh speakers for people and seeing it as an aspiration wasn't there. So, that's what that programme is trying to change, and it's having an effect, and I think they've got data that shows those numbers of people are increasing. So, key to that is engaging people in the outdoors in the first place and seeing it as a viable aspect. So, the chicken-and-egg thing that Sam was talking about I think is really significant. I think there is an opportunity also to engage with providers in terms of how they promote and develop cynefin and develop the language opportunities as well. So, there's a real opportunity here—I agree totally—there's a real opportunity here to develop and expand on that aspect of things.

Diolch. Ydych chi’n meddwl—? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae gan rai o’r sefydliadau yma, megis yr Urdd, gysylltiad pendant efo’r Llywodraeth yn barod, ac yn glir o ran eu rhan nhw o ran cyflawni ‘Cymraeg 2050’; yr elfen arall, wrth gwrs, sy’n rhan bwysig, os ydych chi’n sôn am gynefin, ydy dod i adnabod rhannau eraill o Gymru. Efallai, i rai disgyblion, byddai y tro cyntaf iddyn nhw fynd i ogledd Cymru, os ydyn nhw’n mynd i Lan-llyn, neu Langrannog o ran gorllewin Cymru, neu adael eu cynefin nhw eu hunain. Felly, byddai gen i ddiddordeb o ran gweld hynny yn hyn, oherwydd, yn amlwg, efo rhywun fel yr Urdd, mae’n hawdd gweithio fel yna; o ran gweddill y darparwyr, felly, oeddech chi’n cael yr argraff trwy’r trafodaethau rydych chi wedi’u cael fod yna ddiddordeb o ran efallai dysgu oddi wrth sefydliadau megis yr Urdd, sy’n gwneud hyn yn effeithiol ar y funud a rhoi cefnogaeth nid dim ond o ran sgiliau yn y Gymraeg, ond o ran y rôl yna, ei fod o'n rhan o ddod i adnabod Cymru yn well hefyd, ac efallai ardaloedd sydd yn wahanol iawn i le rydych chi wedi cael eich magu, os ydych chi o Gymoedd y de, er enghraifft?

It's something, again, that was interesting, visiting the many centres that I did, that they all acknowledged—. Perhaps that’s too much of a sweeping statement. Many of them acknowledged that there is a better opportunity for them to engage with Welsh language and Welsh culture. They were very honest about the way much of the picture has been in previous decades around outdoor residential education—it has been, often times, English local authorities buying a big house in Wales somewhere and children from all over the place coming to have those great experiences from other parts of the UK into Wales. That's served a purpose for a time. I think we’re in a different time now, and I agree that, for the children of Wales, the children that we represent here, having them have these experiences in Welsh, and perhaps in different parts of Wales as well—. Now, there’s a sweet spot with this, because driving four hours with a coach-load of children may not always be the most cost-effective and may not always be the best experience for all involved, there and back. But you can experience, certainly, different cultures within Wales within a couple of hours, I think I would argue. So, it’s getting that balance right. It’s not necessarily about always going to the furthest possible destination across the other side of Wales. But I would agree with the broader point about children having these experiences away from their doorstep.

Just, sorry, on this point, what I’ve been really surprised at is the evidence I’ve received that shows that many children—I guess it’s the risk of assumptions we can make from many of our own upbringings—haven’t experienced what life is like even 10 or 15 miles away from where they live. I had some great conversations with a provider on the Gower, who said he’s always surprised at the number of children who come there from Wales, which has a huge coast, who have never seen the sea, never seen a beach before. And some of these children are coming just from the Valleys—not far away at all in terms of geography. So, I think understanding what that means in terms of having a different experience, and seeing different parts of Wales—for some children that will mean just travelling 20 miles away, and you’ll have a completely different outlook, seeing a beach, feeling the sand on your feet; many children have never had that experience, and it’s a great opportunity to do that.

Diolch. Dyw'r Bil ddim yn darparu ar gyfer trwyddedu darparwyr, na gosod gofynion mae'n rhaid eu bodloni cyn derbyn ymweliadau preswyl. Ydych chi'n credu bod hwn, efallai, yn gyfle wedi'i golli? Pam na chafodd ei ystyried yn ddigon pwysig i gael ei gynnwys?

I think it's fair to say it's something that we chewed over a lot. It comes back, though to, I think, two important points. The first is to remember again that a lot of this stuff already happens. So, coming back to what we're trying to achieve here, it's the equity of access, the ease of access, and removing those barriers for those people who can't access these opportunities. So, there are already existing quality badges and quality assurance schemes that take place. So, the Outdoor Education Adviser's Panel, as outdoor education advisers to schools, provide a lot of the assurance to schools around the quality and the standards of a place that a school may be visiting, that already exist. There are things like the Council for Learning Outside the Classroom quality badge that providers already have as well, and you would have thought—. And the Outdoor Education and Adventure Centre have those assurance schemes with the Council for Learning Outside the Classroom as well.

Dave, I think you might be better placed to talk to some of this as well, if you don't mind, from your experience? Cheers.

I understand the question, and I think it's great—you can say, 'Well, shouldn't there be something in place that says this is acceptable?' There are schemes already in place. So, quality can be, I think, assessed in different ways, and so there's an externally awarded framework assessment—this is the quality badge that Sam was talking about. If places haven't got those, there is a provider statement that the Outdoor Education Adviser's Panel recommend, and bear in mind that those authorities using the EVOLVE+ scheme have an adviser as well, and the adviser recommends people to use a certain advisory system, and they're using the EVOLVE+ scheme. So, schools have got an obligation to actually assess quality from a basic safety level and through the provision.

There are then the outcomes—so, is it meeting what you want it to do? And part of the Bill, I think, says it's about identifying needs. So, if a school wants to go somewhere and it's meeting what it's trying to achieve, it's got to then assess that, and if you come away from that going, 'Well, that wasn't very good', then that isn't going to result in a return visit. It will result in something, 'Well, actually, we need to think again.'

So, the outcomes—and the outcomes in this case are in terms of the curriculum—give us a framework, and then there's what you feel on the day. If you're looking at somebody delivering something and it's got a brilliant rapport with the students, you can clearly see progress and things, then that is something that means that you go in and say, 'Yes, I can see quality'. And remember, teachers have got quality standards already in mind, in terms of their own experience and their own frameworks that they operate under. So, there are multiple ways that are already in place, and to actually try and create a quality system across the whole sector, when it's so diverse, would be extremely expensive and, I don't think, actually, necessary in my view.

Thanks. Perhaps, Jen, you'd want to make a point, as well, from the legal perspective.

Yes, just to say there is already legislation in place that applies in relation to activity centres when they're undertaking certain activities, specifically relating to a young person's safety. So, in this Bill, obviously, we didn't want to overlap with legislation that's already in place.

Diolch.

If I could just say, there is capacity within this, in the guidance, to actually—

Yes, so the guidance issued by the Welsh Government may set requirements that must be satisfied before a person is permitted to provide residential outdoor education. But, I think, as Sam and Dave were saying, it's important to remember the Bill isn't creating this industry from scratch. These kinds of health and safety issues are there, where children go at the moment, as they do, and where they go as part of the curriculum [correction: and will be there where they go as part of the curriculum or not.] Effectively, they still need to be safe, don't they?

Just on the point about the outcomes of outdoor education residentials, obviously, Estyn inspects the way a school is providing for pupils through its curriculum. So, if this, under the Bill, becomes part of the curriculum, that could be included in the scope of general Estyn inspections. I think you have to be realistic about the extent to which an Estyn inspection could look at this issue specifically, but, I mean, the Minister does remit Estyn annually to carry out thematic reports on various aspects of education. So, if the Government was so minded, it could remit Estyn to look at the quality of residential outdoor education. It could do that now to establish a current baseline position, or it could do that in the future if it becomes part of the curriculum, to look at the long-term impact of that.

Diolch. Os caf fi, dwi'n derbyn y pwynt o ran iechyd a diogelwch, ond beth roedden ni jest yn trafod cyn hynny oedd cynefin, y Gymraeg ac ati—

Just hold on a second, sorry, the translation's coming back now. Sorry, the translation wasn't—

I'm really sorry about that.

You'll have to start again.

Sorry. It doesn't help if people are on and off—

No, it was an issue with the translator.

Okay.

Roeddech chi'n dweud jest cyn hyn—dwi ddim yn meddwl mai mater jest o ran iechyd a diogelwch ydyw, chwaith—ac roedden ni jest yn trafod, o ran darpariaeth yn y Gymraeg a chynefin, ac ati, fod yna safonau neu bethau y byddech chi'n gobeithio y byddent yn cael eu cyflawni drwy hwn sydd bach yn wahanol, efallai. Felly, a wnaethoch chi roi ystyriaeth o ran yr elfennau yna o ran y gosod gofynion penodol? Dwi'n mynd yn ôl i'r hyn roeddech chi'n ei ddweud yn eich ymateb i fi o ran y ddarpariaeth yn y Gymraeg: 'os gofynnir am hynny', neu 'dibynnu ar argaeledd'—mae'r rheini'n ddau gafeat eithaf mawr. Os mai eich gobaith chi, fel rydych chi'n sôn, yn y Bil ydy, o ran yr elfen cynefin, i fod yn gryfach, pam fyddech chi ddim, efallai, wedi ystyried gosod gofynion—os nad trwyddedu, ond gosod y math yna o ofynion ar ddarparwyr?

I think I'd broadly come back to the point that, as with the Curriculum for Wales, it's down to schools and teachers to ensure that what is being provided for the children is what's best for them. I would expect schools and teachers to understand that an experience in Cymraeg is important. We have to understand that the provision in Welsh at the moment is not enough here in Wales, and that's why that's subject to availability. If this became law, overnight or, say, this time next year, there would not be enough Welsh tutors or Welsh language provision here in Wales. So, there's a challenge for the sector and for Government to see how that provision can be expanded. I think it's pretty strong in here; I appreciate that you may not feel that it's strong enough, and, of course, that may be a recommendation of the committee for me to consider, but I think it's strong in here:

'must provide that residential outdoor education be provided in Welsh, subject to availability'

which I think is a challenge. And I guess your broader point is that, at the moment, it's 'where requested by a school', but I think again, it comes back to the Curriculum for Wales and schools' decision making, teachers' decision making—what's best for their children.

Ocê, diolch.

Diolch, Heledd. Questions now from Laura Jones. Laura.

Thank you, Chair. Can I start by saying that it's great to see you here, Sam, and to hear so much more about your Bill, and, obviously, the wide-ranging benefits that residential outdoor education can bring? I was lucky enough to have those experiences myself, and I use the word 'lucky' on purpose there.

I'm going to ask you some questions about costs. The Welsh Government has stated that it has significant financial pressures in respect of its budgets, so how likely do you think it is that the Welsh Government will be able to provide additional funding to local authorities for residential outdoor education? Arguably, we have seen the Government find extra money for, arguably, non-urgent projects recently, so perhaps it's a matter of priorities. But would you also argue that this is a genuine education priority right now, given the wide range of issues that are presenting themselves in education at the moment? You've also touched on, in previous answers, that it perhaps has cross-portfolio benefits, so how much do you think this is a cross-portfolio priority right now? Thank you.

Thanks, Laura. It's a really challenging question around how costs would be met. My initial response, as I presented to the Senedd last week, is that Government finds money for things that it thinks are important and are a priority. The Government has a budget of £22,000 million a year—£22 billion—and the current funding requirement for this, with current levels of inflation, is around £13 million up to £17 million a year. So, from a budget of £22,000 million, this isn't hugely significant within that, I would argue. And the Government also knows that it's going to be receiving over £300 million of extra funding in years to come. Now, there are huge caveats to all of that. I completely appreciate that it's not, perhaps, as straightforward as I'm looking to outline. But there are challenges within education in Wales as well, and I'm really not trying to make a political point here—please forgive me. We saw the PISA results that came out yesterday, and they're still showing that Wales is, of the UK nations, doing less well, whether the Government chooses to take much credence in PISA results, but most countries do. Not only is Wales at the bottom of the UK nations in terms of educational outcomes and attainment, we're falling faster than other nations have fallen as well. So, I think if I was in the Welsh Government's shoes, I'd be thinking, 'What can we do practically? What tools, what levers can I pull to start bringing those attainment levels up?' Now, I'm not saying that residential outdoor education is going to be the saviour of all things that aren't great, but it's a useful, practical tool that makes a difference to children's outcomes.

Top of the rankings for PISA are Singapore. Singapore have residential outdoor activity funded three times in a child's education in Singapore, which is a completely different level to what we're talking about here, but three separate trips are fully funded by taxpayers. Again, I'm not saying that the reason Singapore is top of any listings in PISA is because of that, but I just think it's an interesting observation to make.

So, I would argue that the Government is at a point of needing to pull levers that will make a difference in our schools and for our learners. This is a great lever that can be pulled that exists. It's not creating a whole new industry and a whole new sector; it already exists. It's guaranteeing that experience, in particular for our less well-off learners.

And then, to add, another point on this is the point that you raised, Laura Anne Jones, and the point that Ken Skates made earlier, which is the cross-departmental, cross-budget impact of something like this. The social return on investment information in the explanatory memorandum, I think, is pretty clear, depending on which study you look at around outdoor learning. The study by Social Value Business shows that for every £1 invested in outdoor learning embedded in school practice, there's a £4.32 social return on investment. The Opening Doors to the Outdoors study, a project specifically here in Wales, which was a broader study, showed that for every £1 invested, £7.12 of value was created. A 12-week outdoor programme by Bangor University showed a return investment of around £5 for every £1 that was invested. Now, those things aren't exactly what I'm talking about within this Bill, but what it does show is that for every £1 that's invested in outdoor learning and residential outdoor learning, there is a positive outcome, which is beyond just the educational experience itself.

Okay, thanks. I'm just going to bring Ken Skates in. Ken.

Thanks, Chair. Cost is the biggest barrier, I think, for this proposal, particularly at this current time, with the state of public finances being more difficult than I've ever known. It's incredibly difficult for Ministers making decisions about their portfolio budgets. I just wonder whether there's any potential at all to draw out funding from trusts or foundations for this. There are organisations that are set up already that, I think, are aligned brilliantly with the principles behind this Bill. I also wonder whether there's any potential at all to establish some sort of umbrella trust to oversee the financing, or support finance for this particular endeavour—a trust that people could give philanthropically to that, perhaps, Welsh and international high net-worth individuals could contribute to. Do you think there is potential to do that, to alleviate some of the cost pressures associated with the proposals?

I think it's a really interesting idea. I know colleagues elsewhere in the UK are looking at similar things. I know that the Scottish version of this looks at a private-public partnership set-up, which I think is a really interesting route to consider. I’ve put this piece of legislation forward to be as straightforward and simple as possible. That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be other ideas or other recommendations that may assist with this, but I tried to keep this really simple, really clear, so it can be really clean, hopefully, going through the parliamentary process. So, I think it’s interesting. Happy to explore the opportunities around that.

And just going back—sorry, just one more point on this broader benefit piece around mental health; I mentioned it last week when I contributed in the Chamber. We can’t forget that the costs, let alone the personal human cost of mental health pressures in particular, but the costs to the public purse around mental health are escalating significantly, and in particular with younger people, so I think any opportunity there is to support those younger people at a human level, fantastic, support the services that are costing taxpayers multimillions of pounds and are only escalating, I think those tools—like this—should be considered.

Back to Laura.

Thank you, Sam. I’m going to move on to a question about that in a minute, actually, but I just wanted to say: I recognise, too, and we all know there is a link between the importance of the social side of school and outdoor experiences, and them having a positive or negative impact on educational outcomes, as we saw only during the pandemic. Are there any parts of the Bill that you do feel are negotiable in order to keep the costs down, in view of the current financial climate, of course, as Ken said? But, for example, the number of nights that are residential, that should be included, or whether the offer should be means tested. Have you thought about those kinds of things, please?

I think it’s fair to say that this could be considered as part of the journey around outdoor learning, so if this isn’t the very end point, or if this isn’t even the start point, there may be ways in which the principles within this Bill could or should be adopted. Whether it is fewer nights, I think, unfortunately, there is a lot of great evidence that shows that that kind of four nights, not necessarily consecutively, but those extended stays do make a more significant difference. Because the first night, everyone’s pretty lively and not necessarily in the learning zone, as it were; the second night, you’re kind of getting used to the experiences, and by the third and fourth night, and those days, really engaging, really getting to know their surroundings. So, there is great evidence that shows that those slightly longer experiences do make a bigger difference. But I appreciate there may be ways in which the costs of this could be reduced, and as I’ve said, and hopefully as you've heard through the evidence I’ve given today, I’m not saying this is perfect in the way it is today, and I’m happy to listen to recommendations from committee.

Brilliant. We like to hear that. Back to Laura.

Thank you. I’m just going to be asking about implementation now. Who is going to be responsible for monitoring the implementation of the Bill? And, obviously, we’ve heard you today talk about the social returns on the cost that’s inputted—the change of life habits and encouraging people to be exposed to the outdoors and outdoor play, for the first time, perhaps, and the mental health benefits, as you just said, which are hard to measure—so, how will outcomes for learners be measured? Thank you.

Thanks. I guess the point here is trying to put something in place that isn’t again a whole new industry. Let me come back to the point recognising that a lot of these activities already take place, and there’s already good tracking within the EVOLVE system, which I mentioned, that 21 out of the 22 local authorities have. There would be a slight difference in that, because this is looking for every individual person to have the opportunity, so that would be tracking an individual person, rather than just the number of trips that a school may undertake, or the number of pupils going on these trips; actually, you’ve got to allocate it to an individual learner. That’s definitely not beyond the wit of man. I have a huge amount of confidence in our local authorities and our schools to be able to put that in place. As I said, they already do that for lots and lots of other things that schools undertake.

I guess on the monitoring of the implementation, there are different perspectives. There’s a Senedd perspective of how would we be confident that the Bill is doing what it’s supposed to do, and I expect committees like this would have an interest in ensuring that that’s taking place. There is an implementation point of view from the schools, and you’d expect governing bodies to have oversight and responsibility for all aspects of children's learning, to have in place structures that give them confidence that things are taking place there as well.

Sorry, the second part of your question, I think I may have forgotten it. What was—?

It was about how will outcomes be measured. How do you find that, considering the social return on it and mental health, changing life habits and things like that? Those are going to be long-term benefits. How are you going to measure that?

It will be the same way in which the outcomes for children in the Curriculum for Wales are currently measured. This is not, again, looking to change the world or completely change the curriculum itself. It's an asset within the curriculum to help learners, yes, to learn. We know there are lots of very good side-effects that are good benefits that would be experienced as well.

Can I just bring Heledd in? Heledd.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau deall o ran yr elfen ymarferol felly. Rydych chi'n dweud y dylai fod yn hawdd, ond rydym ni'n gwybod yn barod fod yna fylchau o ran y math o wybodaeth sy'n cael ei chasglu gan awdurdodau lleol. Er enghraifft, does yna ddim data yn cael ei gasglu o ran pam y mae disgybl yn newid ysgol.

Roeddwn i jest yn meddwl, un o’r pethau ymarferol ydy mai’r disgybl fydd yn cael y profiad, nid yr ysgol. Mae disgyblion yn symud rhwng ysgolion; maen nhw'n symud rhwng awdurdodau lleol gwahanol yn aml. O ran y gwahaniaeth rhwng cynradd ac uwchradd, byddai angen lot o gydweithio rhwng yr ysgolion cynradd, felly, fel bod ysgolion uwchradd yn gwybod pa ddisgybl a oedd wedi cael profiad a pha rhai oedd ddim wedi, ac ati. Efallai ei fod o ddim cweit mor syml â'r hyn rydych chi'n sôn amdano fo.

Felly, sut fyddech chi’n sicrhau bod yna neb yn disgyn rhwng y bwlch yna? A beth fyddai’r mecanwaith os oedd y plentyn yna wedi symud ysgol? A fyddai disgwyliad wedyn eu bod nhw'n talu, a sut byddai hynny'n gweithio mewn ffordd ymarferol, fel eu bod nhw ychwaith ddim yn colli allan o fod efo'u cyfoedion? Oherwydd dwi'n gwybod bod nifer o ysgolion uwchradd, er enghraifft, yn trio blaenoriaethu rhywbeth ym mlwyddyn 7 gan fod pobl yn dod o glwstwr, i ddod ynghyd. Felly, dywedwch y byddai hanner y dosbarth wedi cael rhywbeth am ddim a hanner, efallai, ddim, roeddwn i jest eisiau gweld sut, yn ymarferol, rydych chi'n meddwl y medrwn ni oresgyn rhai o'r heriau yna fel ein bod ni ddim yn cyfyngu ar rai o'r manteision eraill sydd yn cael eu gweld efo profiadau fel hyn.

Yes, I think they are some of the details that we expect to have to be worked through. I don't have all the answers. I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers here today. The Bill itself—I didn't want to put that level of restriction on the face of the Bill. You'll note that the significant part of the duty is around issuing the guidance and to expect the Welsh Government to be considering how that can practically be worked out.

I think you're right to point out some of the very, very detailed practical challenges that may exist and that's why you may expect a Welsh Government Minister to perhaps be more specific when it comes to the guidance as to how that could be worked out. They may want to indicate that this opportunity will be made in year 6 and, therefore, it's easier to track and manage from that point of view. That doesn't mean that other experiences can't happen. This is not about saying that this is the only experience they're ever going to have; this is just guaranteeing at least one. Many learners have multiple experiences because families are able to afford those multiple experiences, whereas others have none—

Thanks.

Sorry, I won't ramble on.

No, no. Thanks, I'm just conscious of time. We'll go back to Laura now. Laura.

Okay, Chair. I think that the Member has actually answered my final question. Sam Rowlands, you've talked about local authorities having things already in place to track whether children have had the opportunity. It was very interesting in what Heledd Fychan just said about money following the child, not the school. So, I think that that's something that should be looked into perhaps. But on compliance more generally as well, how are we going to track that? Thank you. How do you propose we do that?

Thanks, Laura.

So, Welsh Government Ministers will already have structures in place for all sorts of levels of compliance with different schemes, programmes, projects that they have in place. I don't see this as being anything different to what exists. It's just a different line within that reporting of compliance, to different expectations that Welsh Government would have.

Brilliant, thank you, Sam. I've just got a final question and I'll try to roll it into one. You might be aware that this committee is doing some work around equal access to education and childcare for disabled children, and one of the points that has been brought up to us throughout that inquiry, really, is that there's no specialist provision in Wales for those young people with more complex needs. I'm just wondering how the Bill will ensure that those students would be able to access the opportunities that you've set out in your Bill. And just another side of that is that we've also had some evidence around conditions such as young people who have diabetes, for example, who are in mainstream education, but they're unable to access those residential trips because teachers or support staff aren't able to go with them for that provision. I was just wondering how you're able to make sure that those young people with complex needs and conditions like diabetes, so on two different spectrums there, are able to access the provision that you're setting out in your Bill.

Yes. I think it's a really important point around the specialist needs that will need to be catered for, and that's why, on the face of the Bill, I outline that this provision

'must provide that residential outdoor education is suitable to a pupil’s age, ability, aptitude and any additional learning needs'.

That's really close to my heart, to ensure that children of all needs have that access. You're right to point out that there is not specialist provision in Wales at the moment. There are specialist centres in England. I had the opportunity to meet with the director of the Bendrigg Trust, who have a centre in Cumbria. I met with them recently, and they were sharing with me some of the work they're currently doing with centres in Wales in terms of training, actually. I'm not going to name names, but they are working with centres in Wales to give them support, training and advice on how they can better support young people with specialist needs.

So, again, it comes back to that if this is a guaranteed opportunity for all young people, you can then imagine a provider understanding that that is going to be there and then being willing to invest in setting up a centre, or existing centres expanding their provision to ensure they're able to cater for specialist provision. In the meantime, there are, I believe, three centres in England at the moment that have specialist provision for people in special schools, particularly on the acute end of provision.

The very specific example that you provided of a child with diabetes, that's not something I've particularly considered at this point. I don't know if there's anything that colleagues have thought about and could respond to to help me out on that.

Can I just say, from experience as being a head of centre, there is no problem from the delivery side in terms of that? But you're right to identify that it's the staff who accompany them, being able to release those people from school, because they often have other roles, and to be able to accompany those people to do that. So, it's about finding a mechanism to enable that to happen. It's not impossible from a delivery perspective; it's that journey.

It's the other side.

Yes.

Brilliant. Thank you. We've come to the end of our evidence session. I hope you've been grilled on this enough this morning.

Yes, some great questions.

As you can understand, Members had lots of questions to put to you this morning. So, diolch yn fawr. Thank you for joining us. You will receive a transcript to check for factual accuracy in due course, but, again, diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. We'll now take a very short break to bring in the next set of witnesses.