Equality and Social Justice Committee

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. Our next evidence session is with Ruth Coombs, the head of the Wales Equality and Human Rights Commission, and Martyn Jones, the interim chair of the Wales committee for the Equality and Human Rights Commission. So, welcome, both, and thank you very much indeed for your very clear paper—an absolute joy to read. I just want to ask you, in opening, why you think the disability employment gap has been so difficult to close.

I'll start off, and then Martyn can jump in, if that's okay. It's very complicated. Disability is a very complex area. It covers a broad range of similar and different conditions. We know that the pandemic didn't help matters. The pandemic impacted disabled people considerably, and the impact on disabled people's employment was also quite severe, so that was a difficult context there. We also know that routes into employment are particularly challenging for some disabled people—access to apprenticeships et cetera—so, are they getting the work-ready skills that are needed? And I think that there is some nervousness from employers around recruiting and employing disabled people, more so from the beginning, in the recruitment stages, rather than if you have workers who become more disabled during the course of their employment. Martyn, is there something you want to add?

Yes, I'd absolutely agree with those basic policy issues. I think that the additional, broader equalities and human rights complication of disability rights work is the fact that we don't have the same standing in some respects around data gathering, and I think, at UK level, if we do see legislation introduced that forces the hand of the public sector to start recording more accurately and utilising that data to introduce evidence-based policy, that will assist as well. So, I think placing disability on the same standing as other protected characteristics, in terms of the public sector having to record its own data, will assist.

Okay. You say 'the public sector'—what about the private sector?

Well, absolutely, that always is the complication of taking an equality and human rights agenda forward—how we get the private and third sectors to engage as effectively as we know we can get the public sector to do, because we are the regulator for that space. And, of course, the argument since time immemorial in that has been using effective procurement and commissioning processes, so making sure that at least the area that we have a regulatory responsibility for, the public sector—at least through that avenue, you're able to impact the private sector by ensuring that anyone who is involved in a procurement or commissioning exercise with the public sector, at least, are required to comply with the same conditions that the public sector has to.

Okay. But you say that it would make for better data with the public sector. So, why are they not complying? Surely they should be already adhering to best practices, given their remit.

Yes, there is that argument. I'd suggest, if you've been around the disability campaigning space long enough—. We try to avoid the use of language that seems to indicate a hierarchy in protected characteristics, but I think many campaigners would say that that is the case, and that disability does not have the same status, perhaps, as other protected characteristics. We can see that, more recently, in the drive and Welsh Government's own commitment to an anti-racism agenda and the work it's done for many years on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence—these are acknowledged equality areas, but I think we don't see the same focus or drive in the space of disability.

Okay. Is it also to do with the sector being weaker? Because it was pointed out in our earlier session last week that the LGBTQ+ campaigners have developed a kitemark for employers as to who is a good employer to go to, whereas there isn't one that we're aware of that promotes somebody who's positively promoting employing disabled people.

I suppose the Disability Confident mark is mostly used in terms of recruitment. It doesn't seem to be more broadly applicable during the life course of employment. You will see job adverts with that charter mark on, but it's not the same, and I think that that is something that is also a concern. And I think there's a nervousness around, 'Will I get this wrong? Will I ask people the wrong questions? Can I ask a question?' So, there's a lack of confidence in and amongst employers. And when we consider that, predominantly, Wales has small-or-medium-sized enterprises, and there are a significant number of microbusiness in Wales, it's very challenging for them to consider, which is why we're really pleased that, last month, we published our reasonable adjustments and hybrid working for disabled people's guide for employers, which will help employers to navigate some of the concerns that they may have. So, that's something that we see is a positive opportunity for people to grasp going forward.

And I absolutely agree with Martyn around data collection, data gaps, and then what you do with those gaps. It's not enough to collect the information, it's then what is your action plan to move forward and to move forward for change.

I think that nervousness that Ruth described is abundantly evident in the lack of understanding of the existing legislation that's at our disposal. We can do a lot using existing legislation to positively assist disabled people, not only into employment but when they're there, to support them to contribute and be supported to be the best they can and really impact the economy. And that nervousness is clearly seen in that lack of understanding of the legislation.

Okay. There was one specific point in your paper that highlights the widening disability gap and insecure employment rates during the pandemic, which only happened in Wales, not in England and Scotland. Are you able to provide any insight into why that happened?

I'm not able to provide that today. It's something that was obviously of concern—interest and concern—at the time, but actually unpicking what was the reasoning behind that has been quite difficult to do. We do know that we have a higher percentage of disabled people in Wales than in the other parts of Great Britain, and it's possible that that was a contributing factor, because we've got higher rates of disabled people. We know that disabled people were disproportionately impacted by the pandemic, so looking at it from that perspective, it's logical that that could be part of the reason for it. But to be able to actually unpick all the reasoning behind it, the evidence, the data isn't there to be able to do further analysis, I'm afraid.

Obviously, it was one of the main drivers of the 'Locked Out' report, which Jane Dodds is now going to ask you some questions about.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch yn fawr iawn am ddod heddiw hefyd. Ie, dwi eisiau jest canolbwyntio ar yr adroddiad a gofyn dau gwestiwn, ac wedyn dwi eisiau gofyn cwestiwn hefyd am Medr. Ond, yn gyntaf, gaf i ofyn, os gwelwch yn dda: yn eich tystiolaeth, roeddech chi wedi sôn am yr adroddiad, 'Drws ar Glo', 'Locked Out'. Roeddech chi wedi dweud nad oes unrhyw gynnydd wedi'i wneud mewn rhai meysydd. Allwch chi ddweud mwy am ba feysydd mae hynny'n ei olygu, os gwelwch yn dda, a pham, yn eich barn chi, nad oes cynnydd wedi ei wneud yn y maes yna, os gwelwch yn dda?

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Yes, it's a really big question and it's a really interesting one. And we think that, at least in part, it's because a lot of the work that's been done by the Welsh Government to date has been laying down foundations, policy foundations, for the future, but it's the lack of implementation of those policies. And I think that that's something that we would want to see. The 'Locked Out' report gave some very clear recommendations, the employment sub-group gave some very clear recommendations. I don't think they're in the public domain as yet, but we sat as observers on that group. And I think it's about implementation. We've got some great ideas about what we should be doing, but there have been consistent delays. For example, the disability equality action plan is running at least 12, 18 months behind its scheduled milestones, and we think that that's something that really needs a bit more impetus around it, particularly given the fact that we do have high numbers of people who identify as disabled in Wales, and most disabled people want to work. So, we need to be implementing these policy recommendations in order to enable them to work and to contribute in the way that they wish to do. Martyn.

Yes, I think a long-standing call for us, obviously, would be the further incorporation of rights. We would strongly recommend that Welsh Government looks at the earliest opportunity to incorporate the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people into devolved legislation. That would really, really place what we're looking to achieve here—it would give it the status that it needs, and really drive this through in Wales.

And the other thing, just to add, if I may, just to say—the other thing that needs to be unpicked and there needs to be action around is understanding the regional differences across Wales. It's very uneven; the access to employment and other learning opportunities as well is very, very patchy across Wales. There are the links between transport and access to employment. We know that disabled people's access to transport is a challenge; we undertook a piece of research a couple of years ago around access to transport, and if you can't get a joined-up journey to and from work—not all disabled people want to work solely from home; different people want to work in different ways. We all like working in different ways; hybrid working seems to work for a lot of people, for those that have that option or that opportunity. But if you then can't get to the office or to the meeting point, then it makes it much more difficult for people to actually get into work and remain in work, so that's something else to be looked at, the wider infrastructure.

And Mick Antoniw, you wanted to come in.

It was just on the point about the convention, the incorporation of the convention into Welsh law. On the basis that the convention, that the Welsh Government, indeed the Senedd, is required to comply fully with that convention legally in any event: incorporating it into Welsh law, how would you envisage that would be done? Secondly, what additional legal obligation or outcome would it actually achieve? It would be helpful to understand that a bit more.

I think it would probably raise the profile of any subsequent disability action plan, which, again, is outstanding. And again, it's about going back to my initial point, placing this area of equality on the status that it needs to be, and I think that that force of legislative driver, driving a practical action plan, would ultimately raise the profile, raise awareness, and make people sit up and listen and respond a little more effectively.

Okay, thank you.

Jane, did you have any further questions? If not, I'm going to go to Sioned.

Roeddwn i eisiau jest dilyn ar ôl—. Dŷch chi wedi sôn am yr is-grŵp yr oeddech chi'n eistedd arno, a dŷn ni'n gwybod nad yw'r argymhellion yn gyhoeddus, ond allwch chi jest ddweud wrthym ni pa gyngor arall oeddech chi'n rhoi i'r is-grŵp hefyd? A oedd yna bethau ychwanegol roeddech chi'n cyfrannu i’r grŵp?

Yes, our advice centred around the use of the public sector equality duty, the use of reasonable adjustment duties, positive action, and the unique opportunities in the Equality Act that disabled people can draw upon, and that employers and prospective employers can draw upon, that they can't for other protected characteristics. So, for example, you can in your recruitment campaigns actively encourage people who are under-represented to apply. But if you look at disabled people, you can actually say the roles are only open to disabled people. You can go that bit further for people who are disabled. The problem is that employers don't tend to know that, and there is a worry, a legitimate worry and concern, about straying across from positive action to positive discrimination, which is unlawful. It's different for disabled people; there are more provisions in that space than there are for other protected characteristics, but it's not—. I don't think employers and prospective employers are particularly confident in the application of that part of the law.

A recurring theme, I suppose, in our submission is that there is just a lack of understanding of the basics, so what a genuine occupational requirement is. It's all described very, very well in the guidance documents that we produce in relation to the Equality Act, and then even instances of best practice are perhaps not identified particularly well. For a number of years, Government Communications Headquarters have been actively recruiting autistic people and people who are neurodiverse, because they suit the purposes of their service. Have other public services considered how people with disabilities might actually be better at some of the pieces of work they require done?

Diddorol iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest un cwestiwn arall os yw hynny’n iawn. Yn eich tystiolaeth, roeddech chi’n sôn am Medr. Gaf i ofyn i chi fwy am, yn eich barn chi, ba rôl fydd Medr yn gallu ei chwarae ynglŷn â helpu yn y maes yma, os gwelwch chi’n dda?

Yes, of course. We've been advising Medr, in its run-up to being launched, on equality and human rights matters. They are going to have oversight of post-16 education in Wales. They went live on 1 August. They have oversight of all tertiary education, so that includes sixth forms in schools, sixth-form colleges, further education colleges, universities and lifelong learning and apprenticeships. I think that, in terms of the direct link with employment, their role as a regulator for apprenticeships will be absolutely key, as well as their role in terms of oversight of how education providers make reasonable adjustments for learners and consider the needs of disabled learners and learners with additional learning needs. Obviously, not all learners with additional learning needs are disabled learners, so looking at it holistically.

But, certainly, I think in the context of getting into employment, how Medr regulates apprenticeship programmes is going to be absolutely key. We did quite a lot of work with Welsh Government and other partners around access to apprenticeships for disabled people, probably in 2018 and 2019—it was before the pandemic. What we found was that very few disabled learners were starting apprenticeships, even, and even fewer were completing them. So, I think there's a really big role there for Medr to work with the sector to encourage more disabled learners into apprenticeships, and for providers to keep them in those apprenticeships, to make those reasonable adjustments, and to make those reasonable adjustments not just at the beginning, but whenever they're needed. I think that's something else that's really important: you don't make reasonable adjustments once in a person's journey; it's about revisiting that as and when it's needed to be done. Again, it's employers and providers having the confidence to have those conversations.

I think we do—

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

We do mention in our submission as well the concept of reasonable adjustment passports. I think they are absolutely key to supporting any disabled individual into work and ensuring that that support on point of intake is tracked and is able to accommodate fluctuating need.

Yes.

Very good. Can I now bring in Sioned Williams?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, a phrynhawn da. Eisiau sôn yn benodol ydw i am hawliau pobl anabl, ac rydym ni wedi trafod tipyn y prynhawn yma yr oedi sydd wedi bod cyn cyhoeddi’r cynllun gweithredu hawliau anabledd a hefyd ymgorffori confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau pobl anabl. Oes gennych chi unrhyw fewnwelediad neu ddealltwriaeth pam fod cymaint o oedi wedi bod, o ystyried bod, er enghraifft, ymgorffori’r confensiwn yn y rhaglen lywodraethu? Ac rydych chi wedi sôn ei fod e'n cael effaith ar statws a gyrru'r gwaith, oes yna unrhyw effeithiau eraill mae'r oedi yma wedi'i gael ar fynediad pobl anabl i waith?

Yes. I think the fact that there have been delays is having an impact on disabled people and disabled people's organisations, who feel that they're kind of forgotten and left behind. We know that when the pandemic had a disproportionate impact on disabled people and on people from certain ethnicities, there was a big focus, and rightly so, on ethnic minorities and what needed to be done in order to address those imbalances, those differences. And I think that those inequalities—. I think there's been a lot of focus on that, and rightly so, but any organisation can only do as much work as they can do at any particular time, and I think it's possible that the disability rights side of things took a little bit of a back seat. I know that there is also a big—again, rightly so—emphasis on co-production, and co-production does take time and we know that, if you co-produce something, it is going to take longer than if you impose it. And co-production is the right way to go, but it feels as if there was a lack of resource put into maintaining that focus and there were gaps in Welsh Government in terms of actually having officials to be able to progress the work—there were gaps there, as well. Martyn, anything you want to add?

Yes. Not wanting to reiterate what I've said previously and waste your time and the opportunity we have here, but I think the stigma still exists in society around disability that perhaps has been broken down slightly more effectively in relation to ethnicity and race and to women's equalities issues. It's still—for want of a better term—the kind of poor relation, I think, in the equalities world. It is too easy to almost be allowed to get away with existing practice and existing outdated modes of understanding and thinking about disability. So, that, fundamentally, is the premise upon which a lot of this poor practice and lack of progress is based.

But I will go back to the point I made a little bit earlier that I don't think we emphasise enough the extensive nature of the legislative support we have to proactively operate in this space, and reasonable adjustments is a perfect example of that, I think. If you scanned most public sector organisations, the sophistication with which they take forward those supporting mechanisms in their organisations would probably be quite lacking if a thorough investigation or inquiry was done into that. And a lot of that is undoubtedly down to stigma and a lack of understanding, but you will find, quite often, first-line supervisors and managers coming up with completely outdated responses to facilities that they have at their disposal to support people. So, they won't instigate a totally reasonable and quite often uncomplicated, inexpensive support mechanism of whatever sort for an individual, because they wouldn't want to be seen to be doing something more for one person that they might then be asked to do for their whole team. We're really dealing with here a basic lack of understanding of the rights of disabled people, and it is just too easy at the moment, I think, for people to get away with it.

Absolutely. And there's also a big intersection with disability and age. As people get older, they are more likely to become disabled, statistically speaking, and then you get into all that talk about people being a burden and disabled people sometimes feeling that that's how society views them. That is why the social model of disability is important, because it takes away that sense of being done to or being a burden, which is a similar way that older people feel that they're viewed, and, as I say, because of those intersections between the two, I think that's an important point. And the fact that we haven't got any form of incorporation of the UNCRPD. We have got partial incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child in Wales and we're having to take due regard of the United Nations principles for older people in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. There are already some domestic provisions for some protected characteristics, but they don't reach out across, apart from where you obviously have intersectionalities. So, looking at further incorporation, I think, would be really important.

The UN convention on the rights of disabled people is built around the social model of disability, and there is a whole conversation to be had about do you have a person-first social model of disability or not person-first. In Wales, it's not person-first and in lots of other parts of the world it is. But looking to see how that can be used to empower people, I think, is really important, because we know that disabled people who are in employment, there's really good evidence to show that they are loyal, they are hard-working, they are effective and they make a difference in all sorts of positive ways. By not giving disabled people the access into employment, as a nation we're really missing out on productivity, on economic engagement and on Wales moving forward.

And I think as an A-status national human rights institution, it's pretty much incumbent on us to point out—I know it's in the paperwork—that the United Nations is looking at UK Government's approach to disability and whether there has actually been an erosion in disabled people's rights. And, I think, Welsh Government needs to ensure that it supports what the UN is trying to do there, but in the devolved context ensure that we do better.

Very good. Sioned, I'll come back to you, but Mick Antoniw just wanted to come in.

I just want to come back again on this point about incorporation. Not that I disagree with the desirability of incorporating, and there were clearly complications as to precisely how you incorporate some of the UN conventions, but on the basis that all those legal obligations exist already, isn't the real issue that of powers of enforcement? Now, many of those powers of enforcement are actually ones that are within the non-devolved framework, but all the issues come back, no matter how you change the law, incorporate the law or whatever. And you've already, I think, said to me earlier that, you know, this is really as much about how it's perceived and how it's focused upon, but there's the issue of enforcement. What are your thoughts, then, on the issue of the enforcement of those rights, because no matter what you legislate and what you do, unless there is a process of enforcement, nothing really drives change in that sense? So, do you have any particular views as to how that could be improved?

Yes. I think it's a point really well made, that you can have all the powers in the world, but if you don't have enforcement powers they're really a very blunt instrument. There would be ways of allowing greater enforcement powers, so, for example, the Welsh Government has committed to reviewing the public sector equality duty specific duties for Wales under the 2011 regulations. So, that could be an opportunity to extend provision and extend powers within that.

There have been examples recently around websites, for example. There is now greater regulation of accessible websites. A way was found to put that into existing regulation. There was a bit of additional legislation, but, certainly, if you’ve already got either primary or secondary legislation that is up for review, that’s a really good mechanism for developing something, rather than thinking that, every time, you have to have a completely new piece of legislation, because we know that legislation is costly and it takes time. So, I would certainly look at things like what can be done, what further enforcement powers can be given. For the Welsh Government, I would first be looking at, as I say, the review of the public sector equality duty and how human rights obligations and Equality Act regulation could be brought together a bit more for Wales. The Welsh Government doesn’t have the competence to amend the Equality Act or the Human Rights Act as it stands, but they do have mechanisms for developing legislation in areas where they have that competence. So, that’s what I would suggest. Martyn, have you got any other ideas?

I suppose the obvious statement for us to make as the Equality and Human Rights Commission is, obviously, that we are the enforcer and the regulator of the Equality Act, and that, as part of the new strategic plan that we're developing—. The consultation, I think, has just closed on that, has it?

Yes, this week.

We are making it more clear, I think, that this is the future of the EHRC. It will be a more efficient and effective regulator and enforcer. Part of what we're trying to do in Wales is reach out to the future generations commissioner, children's commissioner and older people's commissioner to use our convening powers to explore in what areas—and perhaps disability is one of them—our separate statutory powers could perhaps be put to good use if they were unified in some way, shape or form, and that better collaborative work between us is able to influence better equality outcomes.

Thank you.

Thank you. I'm going to go back to Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I ba raddau mae pobl anabl yn ymwybodol o’u hawliau cyflogaeth, a pha gamau fyddech chi’n hoffi eu gweld yn cael eu cymryd gan Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol a Llywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod pobl yn fwy ymwybodol o’r hawliau a’r camau y gallen nhw eu cymryd os nad yw’r hawliau yna'n cael eu darparu iddyn nhw?

Thank you. I think that one of the things that we would like to see is the UK Government and the Welsh Government signposting to our guidance. We’ve got good guidance on the Equality Act and the Human Rights Act. We’ve got guidance for employers. There’s a wealth of information that we have, but I don’t think that public bodies always signpost to that. So, it would be Welsh Government signposting, also local authorities, in their one-stop shops that they seem to have these days—them signposting to our information as well. We’ve got good relationships with some of the disabled people’s organisations in Wales, and we use those to bring them together with the Wales committee, for example, but I think that that signposting isn’t always there. With the disability rights action plan, when that’s published, if that could be published and those links be embedded in that, because disabled people will look at that and then they’d be able to see what else is available to them and for them, and I think that’s really important. ACAS also has good resources, and, again, signposting—it’s about not being precious about what's on whose website, and making it transparent, making it easy for people to understand where to find information. I think that's one of the things that is not unique to Wales, that sometimes the public sector doesn't always signpost beyond their own small part of what the world looks like. And I think that better sharing of information would be really, really valued and valuable. Martyn.

Yes, I'm certain others will have made the noise I'm about to make, but the lack of independent advocacy in this space and others is part of the reason that people don't utilise the rights that are at their disposal. They simply don't have any awareness that they exist a lot of the time, and if they do, actually utilising those mechanisms often requires support and, I suppose, nowhere other than in the sphere of disability is there more of a likelihood that people, despite the drive to support independent living, might need independent advocacy even to get the level of independent living that they can aspire to. So, I think it's pretty important that we explore what's out there currently and whether there is a lack of provision, and whether that's having an impact on people's awareness of their rights.

Yes, that coupled with a lack of access to legal advice—that's another. We've done some work in Wales around the legal advice desert, but we've still only got Speakeasy Law Centre in Cardiff, and there was one law centre that was being established in north Wales, but only having a couple of law centres is not really meeting the needs of people across Wales, whatever the protected characteristic group. And that's a real disadvantage, together, obviously, with lack of legal aid provisions. So, when people want to realise their rights, if they do believe they've been discriminated against, where do they go? How do they access that? We're not in a position to be able to take individual cases. We intervene where we can clarify the law, where there is a novel piece of law. A few years ago—about three years ago—we had a disability legal advice fund that we opened where we lowered the bar, and we had a number of cases from Wales as a part of that. We’ve recently closed our race equality legal aid programme, again where we were able to support for a particular length of time. Again, we supported cases from Wales, but when we haven't got these special funds that we can open in a particular way, and we can't do that routinely, people don't have access to justice, and that's something that is a real concern. And then if you add the rural nature of Wales, and language, access to justice in rural Ceredigion where Welsh is your first language, it's really, really challenging to even find somebody to listen to you. So, those are some of the considerations that need to be given as well.

Sioned, have you got any further questions?

Jest un bach, cyflym. Rŷn ni wedi edrych ar ochr hawliau pobl anabl eu hunain, ond jest i edrych wedyn ar ochr y cyflogwyr, rŷch chi wedi dweud sawl gwaith bod diffyg hyder a bod nerfusrwydd, ac rŷn ni hefyd wedi trafod lot ei fod yn anwastad o ran sut mae cyflogwyr yn darparu neu'n gwneud addasiadau rhesymol. Felly, pa gamau yr hoffech chi weld Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol yn eu cymryd o ran mynd i’r afael â’r nerfusrwydd yna, mynd i’r afael â’r diffyg hyder yna, mynd i’r afael â’r diffyg cysondeb yna o ran gweithredu addasiadau rhesymol—yn fyr, os gallwch chi?

Yes, I think one of the things that could be done is to bring employers together and to actually run a day that is specifically about access to employment for disabled people—reasonable adjustments. We would be happy to support in terms of running something, I'm sure, so that people are all together in a room and they can actually talk about their worries and concerns, because, quite often, employers don't feel they've got anybody that they can talk to either. And bringing ACAS on board, bringing in the Federation of Small Businesses, the CBI, employers more broadly, and the Welsh Government convening something where they could get those links, and then, as a follow-up, making sure that public bodies are required to supply that information on links, people like the FSB, et cetera, would then know where to go, where to look, and then they could advise their members. I think that's something that would be really valued—and not simply employers, but also getting the expertise of disabled people in that room as well, so that they can talk to employers without employers being worried about it. The guidance that we have is really clear, but people don't know where to find it. That's the big issue. And if the Welsh Government were to convene something like that, I think it would be well received from all sectors. Do you want to say anything, Martyn?

Okay. We're starting to run out of time. So, Mick, short question, and short answers, please.

Just very quickly, on the role of the trade unions, who have played a big part in many of the key legislative changes, and so on, no-one has mentioned so far the importance of that role in an environment where, until recently, trade unions have been very downplayed—to put that diplomatically. I was just wondering what you thought about the particular role there.

They've got a huge role to play, absolutely, because they can support—. There are organisations for employers, but the trade unions that support employees have got a very big part to play. So, yes, obviously, we wouldn't want to leave them to one side, because they've got resources, they're trusted. So, yes, absolutely. And if I've not talked about them, then that was remiss of me.

Okay. Very good. We'll move on to Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. Apologies I was slightly late—I got my times wrong.

Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I just wanted to ask you a few questions. You touched in your earlier answers on geographical variances, and then also maybe where Welsh is the first language and the difficulties there. And I just wanted to get a bit more of an idea about what could be done in terms of better targeting support to them, or is it a case where the Government should be looking to target, to get, for want of a better phrase, the biggest bang for its buck, as they say, targeting a wider area—like the cities, and that, really—where they can help more people, maybe? I don't know. I just wanted to get your views there, on how support could be better targeted to those, and also those who have other protected characteristics—maybe from black and ethnic minority communities, younger people or older people—and just to see how that support could be better targeted. Thank you.

Thank you. The rural/urban issue is always a challenge. It's a challenge in Wales, particularly—we've got large swathes of sparsely populated rural communities. Our view would be that you shouldn't just consider where you're going to make a difference to the most people, because, sometimes, issues where you can make a big difference or a small difference to one or two people's lives makes a big difference to the community. And I think that it's important to have a balance, and not to just think of Newport, Cardiff, Wrexham, possibly Bangor. We've got to look at our rural communities, and that's where the infrastructure links are so important—that we get the infrastructure right so that people can access work—and that includes digital infrastructure. We know that it's in our rural communities where digital infrastructure is at its weakest, and that's likely to be in a place where also traditional transport infrastructure is also likely to be at its weakest.

Mick, did you have your hand up or were you stretching your hand? I think he didn't have his hand up, so back to you, Joel.

No worries. You mentioned earlier about learning disabilities, and also in your written evidence I think you referred to the learning disability strategic action plan, and I just wanted to know how effective that is at the moment. And, in your view, is enough being done, really, to support people with learning disabilities?

Do you want to take this one, Martyn?

Yes, I'm happy to start. I think there's also mention in our submission of Engage to Change, which was the largest lottery-funded project ever in Wales. So, there's been significant activity in this specific space around learning disability and the subject matter of this committee's interest, the actual employment opportunities and apprenticeships. So, there has been a lot of work in this area. It goes back to previous questions, really: whether there's the awareness and whether the learning has been extracted from that is questionable. I think that the learning disability sector has some amazing organisations operating within it. The separation, perhaps, between learning disability and broader disability, and then we could extend that into the far greater understanding in society and awareness of neurodiversity. This is where things become complicated in disability spaces, where you're trying to address multiple and complex needs in various spaces, and I think learning disability is the most obvious area where that plays out, in some of the difficulties that young people particularly with learning disabilities have in accessing adequate education, training, apprenticeships, work, and in some of the difficulties their parents have in accessing the support that they are actually due, through local authority service arrangements. It's a really, really complicated area. And, I think, when you take that into the employment sphere, despite, as I say, us having some landmark, quite extensively and well-funded pieces of work in this area, we perhaps haven't learnt as much as we could have done.

Perfect. Thank you. Just one final question, if I can, Chair. I know we've sort of touched upon it briefly as well, about Welsh Government interventions in terms of trying to get people into employment and into apprenticeships, and I just wanted to get your opinion about how effective you think that has been, and whether there's more that the Welsh Government could be doing to try and drive those numbers up, sort of thing. Thank you.

Yes, I think there's definitely more that could be done to open up and encourage access to apprenticeships across the piece, but particularly for disabled people. The information about how you access an apprenticeship, information about what is an apprenticeship, if you go and try and find out, as a person, just Google it, it's really difficult to find out actually what all this stuff means, what support you are going to get, what your obligations are, what the employer's obligations are, and what the obligations and expectations are of those who are providing the learning experience inside of it—so the college side of it, for want of a better word. It's not clear. And I don't think that schools are getting enough rich information about the variety of apprenticeships that are available and how that can impact on people's career paths. So, I think that more awareness raising would be key.

Thank you. That's very helpful. So, can I pass on to Julie Morgan?

Thank you. Good afternoon. You've already mentioned the general equality duty and the specific duties for Wales, and you do feel that they can be used to address the employment gap and the disability pay gap. So, how do you envisage that actually working in practice? How would you use that duty to make an impact?

Well, in the Welsh regulations, there is a pay differences duty, and I think that the pay differences duty in the Welsh regulations could be easily amended to include monitoring of disability pay gaps. The Welsh Government has committed to closing disability pay gaps and ethnicity pay gaps. I think where it's difficult is in the public reporting of that information. So, what we would advise is that if you've got small numbers, then use that information for yourself, use it within your organisation, and use it to make a difference. So, use that information to put into place an internal action plan, and then you could report that you are doing that without having to report the actual figures and numbers. Because one of the things that we know is, where you've got small numbers, then there is a risk that you might inadvertently identify people within your workforce. So, if you do it as an internal exercise, with external reassurance that you are actually doing it and saying you are, then the pay differences duty could be used for that.

The gender pay gap reporting, which is done through the UK Government, some organisations in Wales are bound by that, but it's where you've got more than 250 employees. So, the vast majority of private sector employers in Wales won't meet that threshold, which is why it could be done on an internal basis. But, yes, I would use the pay differences duty, and just slightly modify that in order for it to be able to be fit for purpose here.

Right. Martyn.

All I'd add, I suppose, is a reiteration of a comment made earlier: this is all reliant on robust data, which, kind of, is what we've just described there. And if, in a Welsh Government action plan, that is being utilised to drive incorporation of a UN convention, if the public sector, at least, are aware that they have to do this, they have to have a realistic understanding of what their data is, and that evidence-based policy is going to be based on it, that will help.

We always bump into the sensitivities of data recording when we talk about disabled people because there are numerous reasons why someone may not want to identify or disclose a disability, and I think that's a known problem in gathering efficient data. But that doesn't detract from the fact that there are lots of ways of doing that. In the public space that I work in, we have the Safe to Say programme, where we're actively trying to explain to workforces why we need the data and how it will be handled. Because you will all be aware that one of the recurring calls from people is, 'Why do you want this data? What are you going to do with it?' So, if you're able to comfort people regarding the importance of us having that for us to be able to do the best we can for all our workforce, that helps.

And I think the other bit that is again reliant on effective data, and which is in the submission, is that I know that you'll have picked up that Audit Wales have done an analysis of the use of equality impact assessments across the public sector. Again, that could be driven via the general duty and the PSED. Conducting equality impact assessments does have a higher status in the devolved context than it does at UK level. It is in the specific duties. There's more of a nudge that 'You will', which is missing at UK level. I don't think we utilise that particularly effectively.

So, basically, what you're telling us is there are lots of mechanisms there that could be used without incorporation. Although, obviously, we would support incorporation, but there is so much that could be done as it is.

Yes, there are more steps that could be taken within the current frameworks.

Absolutely.

Thank you. And then the other question I wanted to ask—again, which you've already referred to—is on the guidance on hybrid working. How are you going to measure that, evaluate it, to see how effectively it's being used by employers?

On our website, we do have a feedback page, so we're asking people for feedback as they read it: is it useful, is it helpful? So, that's one of the things that we are doing. We also have our annual programme of compliance with the public sector equality duty, et cetera, and it could be easily incorporated into the questions that go out, and when we do desktop research on that. We only published it last month, but it was well received. It's been quite warmly received, and we have today had a quick discussion with a colleague from the Federation of Small Businesses about how it could be useful for FSB users. And also, asking people like Shavanah from the Trades Union Congress, 'Are the unions using it? Do they find it helpful?'

And I think it's a really good question, because we want it to be useful and we want it to be helpful, so we need to get feedback, whether it's good feedback or whether it's feedback for improvement, then we need to look at that and amend it. But one of the things that has been said is that it is very clear, it's easy to follow and it takes the employer through the journey, through the conversations, so it is really a step-by-step process. So, we hope it's going to be helpful in that regard, but we have mechanisms that we can use to see the effectiveness of it. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Mick Antoniw.

Well, I think all the questions that I wanted to raise with regard to data, Chair, I think have actually been answered, so I don't really want to duplicate them, if that's okay.

Okay, that's grand. I just want to ask, finally: we heard from Professor Debbie Foster last week a sense of frustration at the slow pace of change, and I appreciate that you can't tell us what's in a report that hasn't yet been published, but given that you are the enforcer and the regulator, how do you answer the accusation that you maybe haven't used your influence in terms of making employers aware of what the law already says, and how it can be used with confidence to, if you like, take positive action to support disabled employees?

Thank you. I think we've used as many mechanisms as we can to get our information out there as best we can. When we published our recent guidance, we raised awareness on social media, through press releases, through targeted information as well, so we made sure that the right people got that information, those who can cascade. But then we are to some extent reliant on, if we send it through to, for example, the TUC, 'Will they pass it on?' And I'm only using them as an example: I'm not in any way, shape or form suggesting that they have a role others wouldn't have; it's simply for illustrative purposes.

So, that's one of the things that is difficult when you are a—I mean, we are a relatively small organisation. We're particularly small in Wales, and we do what we can with the resources that we have. One of the things that is a challenge for us, and possibly a frustration for people outside, is that a lot of the work that we do in this kind of regulatory monitoring enforcement space is confidential, so people don't get to hear about it until right at the other end of something. And I think that can be a frustration, and that can appear to be inaction when things might be happening behind the scenes. I'm not saying that specifically about this matter, but a range of matters. That's one of the challenges and frustrations that we get quite often, isn't it, Martyn? And we say, 'We can't talk about it. I'm awfully sorry.'

Absolutely. I've got nothing to add to that, really, Chair.

Okay. Fine. Well, we hope that this inquiry will assist you. So, thank you very much indeed for your evidence. We'll send you a transcript and, obviously, if there's anything that we've misinterpreted, please come back to us. Thank you very much indeed for coming to see us today, and we look forward to your further work on this matter.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your questions, everybody. They were really interesting.

Right. We're now going to take a short break before the next two witnesses are in place.

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee session on disability and employment. And I'd now like to welcome Vivienne Buckley, principal of Bridgend College, who is joining us online, and Lisa Mytton, strategic director for the National Training Federation Wales, who's here in the committee room. Welcome, both of you. You don't both need to answer all the questions, but if you have an additional point you want to make, please do indicate.

So, just to start off, what schemes are in place to support disabled students into further education, training and employment, and how do you enable those disabled people to make the transition from education into employment? Shall we start with Vivienne, just because she's down the line? Go ahead.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. So, yes, there are lots of schemes in place in further education colleges. So, the first big thing that we would say we have got is lots of activities involved that allow students to make the transition. This is very specific if you're talking about students that have already got an IDP, an individual development plan, or have declared an additional learning need and, I suppose, are already in the education system. That means we're able to give access to those students way before they even start in college. There's an example here at Bridgend College: this year we held a summer school that had an even more intensive activity programme, which means those learners had the opportunity to come into college, meet people that they would be working with and make sure the environment really works for them. We were then able to carry out any risk assessments that might need to be in place or make sure we've done a full review of the support that those students would need. So, big transition events, as I say, specifically for people with ALN, but for people with potentially physical disabilities, a similar process would happen there, and then they would have their own action plan for the time they were in college with us.

Thank you. I mean, Bridgend College is sector leading; a lot of my constituents attend. But as far as the national picture is concerned, Lisa, do you think that all colleges are doing as well as Bridgend?

I couldn't really remark on colleges, because I'm coming from an apprenticeship background. However, what I can say is that we work with the 10 commissioning contract holders for apprenticeships in Wales, which includes six colleges pan Wales, and all of those apprenticeship providers equally provide that space for disabled learners to 'come on board', as we call it, to sign up to an apprenticeship programme. And they start in a number of different areas. You have the main apprenticeship programme, where they can join and do a level 2 to 5 apprenticeship framework, and there is additional Welsh Government support, which is very much welcome, to help employers, then, put in any additional resources that that disabled learner may need. You also have the Jobs Growth Wales+ programme that gives them that start in life, really, from school to come into the world of work, and then we have the supported apprenticeship programme as well, which specifically helps with work experience and for a disabled learner to attain a level 2 apprenticeship as well. And so they're the main schemes that we have available at the moment to support apprentices who are disabled.

Thank you. We'll come back to some detail on that, but finally from me: I just wanted to ask Vivienne about some figures you published recently suggesting a decrease in the last three years of learners in FE institutions who are self-identifying as having a disability. What has caused this decrease, in your view, and how much of a concern is it?

I think there was a decrease in general of students attending FE in the post-COVID era, so we know that across colleges we've seen a decrease. It's lovely to report that, actually, the majority of colleges are reporting an increase and returning back to pre-COVID numbers of students coming through the door. But you're absolutely right, we are seeing a decline in people who are declaring at enrolment. I think that may well be when you're looking at students who are self-declaring, so not necessarily people who were diagnosed with an additional learning need or somebody who had, actually, some form of statement for their educational difficulties, or indeed people with a physical disability. We had an awful lot of people post COVID that were actually self-declaring, and I think, when we were then able to work with those young people or those adults coming in to us, perhaps it wouldn't now be something that would be seen as being as much of an issue. So, I think we are seeing an improvement, certainly under mental health, although that's not underselling the huge issue that that still is.

Again, to talk specifically about Bridgend College, in 2022 we had 556 people declare at enrolment that they felt they had a disability. That number has reduced to 439. So, there is a decrease in that number, alongside an increase in students, but it still is 20 per cent, nearly, of our cohort, so that number is still absolutely huge.

Thank you very much for that clarification. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much. In a previous session, academics told us that addressing educational inequalities for disabled people would have an impact on the disability employment gap. So, to what extent do you think that educational inequalities are having an impact on the employment outcomes and what actions are needed to address this? We'll start with Lisa.

Yes, shall I go first?

Yes.

We're certainly working more closely with the transition phases, so from schools into work-based learning, so working closely with schools and employers as well to talk about the opportunities available for young people, including those who have identified that they have a disability as well. We are seeing that gap now closing because of the additional support that's available. One of the key aspects that has been positive a one for our employers is the Disability Confident kitemark, and that support that they've received, because when we've talked to them, whether it's an SME or a larger employer, it's about the additional support and resources that they feared, I guess, that they needed to put in place and how they would overcome that. By becoming a disability employer, they've actually found that there is partnership support available and additional resources available, and also working closely with Disability Wales as well to identify what are some of the key issues. So, with all of those stakeholders around the table, we are able to identify what we need to do as apprenticeship providers, in order to encourage more learners to come on board and to take an apprenticeship with us. So, the gap is getting better.

These initiatives, like Disability Confident, you see as being effective.

Yes, because it's a recognised kitemark, so you know that when we're liaising with an employer who's already had that support, and if they haven't, we can then guide them into that support as well. It just gives that added confidence. So, it has definitely helped.

Yes, right. Thank you very much. Did you have anything to add?

Yes, if I could do. So, in terms of very specific programmes in FE, which would be a feeder on to apprenticeship programmes in many cases, a really good case study of where there has been a real impact based on a specific programme is the supported internship programme. So, this is for young people who have either a learning disability or a disability and are actually taking part in a supported internship programme, which is one of the pathway 4 programmes under the independent living skills curriculum. What that means is you've got groups of students that are actually working in employment, but with support in the first year that they're there. Some of the statistics around those bespoke programmes are really impressive. There are now 17 of those programmes happening across Wales, and all colleges are now offering those pathways for employability programmes.

In terms of a specific example, Bridgend College works with PHS, and, last year, if there were eight students in the cohort, which would be the normal size, four of those students went into full-time employment, another one returned to college, in a different college to Bridgend, but a course at a higher level and they've been studying, and three moved into voluntary employment with support, which we're really hopeful will become employment there as well. So, when you've got those bespoke programmes with dedicated support, we really are seeing an impact.

Yes, very impressive—a small number, but very impressive, isn't it? Yes. Thank you very much. The academics also raised issues about a digital skills gap and the impact that that has on employment opportunities for young disabled people. What are you doing, in the education and training sector, to address this? Shall we start with Vivienne?

Yes, certainly. So, yes, we have—. Again, going back to the project I was just talking about there, because those young people actually have a dedicated job coach working with them, they are able to identify if there are any gaps, like digital skills, and then we would be able to put in support. In terms of more mainstream support that we would be offering that is available to more students when they're in college, we actually have an assistive technologies lead, and colleges up and down the country would have something very similar. So, this is having, again, somebody dedicated to those people to make sure that they're able to access the technologies that mean that they're actually more self-serving in the way that they are able to study and those techniques would also then be able to be used in employment as well.

Through the apprenticeship providers, using the supported apprenticeship programme, we've been able to put in assisted technology platforms to help disabled learners as well, using a range of accessible learning platforms—so, just making sure that that accessibility is there as well, not just the physical aspect, but digital learning. So, it has increased. What I would say, though, is that the funding for work-based learning providers and apprenticeships is far less, i.e. the support to have those supportive roles like the job coaches, like the mentors, et cetera. So, you usually find that the training assessor within an apprenticeship provider is multitasking and does a lot of that support and guidance. But with, as I said, that additional £2,000 that employers get, we are able to put in further technologies to help young people.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Sioned Williams.

Diolch yn fawr. Roeddwn i jest eisiau holi cwestiwn yn benodol ynglŷn â phobl sydd ag anabledd dysgu. Dwi'n gadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar anableddau dysgu, ac rŷn ni wedi clywed lot o dystiolaeth gan deuluoedd yn dweud eu bod nhw'n teimlo bod y broses o wneud cais ar gyfer addysg bellach yn un sydd ddim yn cymryd anghenion i ystyriaeth, ac nad yw'r cyllid, hefyd, o ddwy flynedd, sydd fel arfer yn cael ei roi, yn ddigon hyblyg, chwaith; maen nhw'n teimlo y dylai'r siwrnai yna ddechrau lot ynghynt yn ystod y transition yna o'r addysg maen nhw'n ei chael o dan 16 i'r addysg y byddan nhw'n ei chael ôl 16. Allaf i ofyn i chi am eich barn chi ar hynny a hefyd am y ffaith, wrth gwrs, fod y cyfrifoldebau ar gyfer gwneud y penderfyniadau hynny, roedden nhw'n arfer eistedd gyda Llywodraeth Cymru a nawr maen nhw wedi cael eu trosglwyddo i awdurdodau lleol, onid ydyn nhw? Mae rhai teuluoedd hefyd yn teimlo dydyn nhw ddim yn gallu cael mynediad at y colegau mwy arbenigol oedd efallai'n fwy addas ar gyfer anghenion eu plant nhw. Felly, unrhyw farn ar hynny, os gwelwch yn dda?

Do you want to come to me first, Chair, or Vivienne?

I'll go to Vivienne first, if that's all right.

Okay. No problem. Sorry.

That's all right.

Lovely. Thank you so much. I think, yes, absolutely, it is a big time of change, isn't it, since the ALN Bill came in and since, obviously, that process has changed. It's had a huge influence, I would say, on families understanding how they can actually access that support. Again, I think it may be a bit of a postcode lottery, because now that funding has gone to different local authorities. Certainly, I know colleges have talked a lot about, if you're dealing with lots of different local authorities, the process can be vastly different depending on where it is that you live, and I think that is causing some confusion and complication for families who are trying to navigate their way through that. I can give you examples of where it's working incredibly well, where there's really strong partnership working between the local authority and the local FE college, and that's when some of those things I was talking about earlier, like the great transition events that we know that we're able to do—. Because the sooner you have access to that young person or the person trying to come in, obviously, you can put things in place.

The two-year funding, again, has been problematic. We have a history of dealing with students here who have got quite severe learning difficulties and we can't guarantee that two years is long enough. So, I think, again, that puts pressure and puts stress on families when they would like much more flexibility in terms of how they're using that, but I think it's fair to say that it is work in progress. I know that, anecdotally, there's a lot of noise at the moment around the number of people who are actually accessing the tribunal process because they don't agree with the decisions that have been made around their young person, and, I think, as organisations, we're really trying to help where we can so that people can navigate that system, but I do think it is a difficult time, and it's certainly not settled yet since the ALN Act has come in.

Okay. Lisa.

I just want to echo what Viv has said, really. I think there are still certainly barriers there, if I'm completely honest. I think that since we've had the conception of the ALN Bill and then working through that—. Viv also noted some of those tribunal queries as well. So, yes, challenges and barriers still there, being completely honest with you. To give an example in Merthyr Tydfil, we've got a tertiary model of education there, so you don't have sixth forms, they go straight into the college, and I have to say the college have been very supportive with parents in helping with that transition, but that two years is really tight. Again, just going back to what Viv said, depending on the additional learning need, the additional support that that young person needs, that usually isn't enough time, if I'm completely honest. So, that really does need reviewing. And then, just as an addition to that, we've also got the commission now, we've got Medr, which has a responsibility, really, for looking at this as well for post-16 education. So, it really is important that part of their strategic consultation considers the support for ALN learners, as we call them, as well, moving into post-16 education.

Viv, ydych chi eisiau dod mewn?

Yes, please. Just to expand on the point that Lisa just made there, I think maybe two years is enough time to get the qualification at college, but when you think of the great examples Lisa and I have both been giving around those supported apprenticeships or supported internships, those take longer. And I think that's the difficulty: you can have a great experience for two years in that very protected environment of an FE college, but if what we're trying to do is make sure these students are then able to go on to hold down jobs or to work in employment and keep being fulfilled in that way, I think that becomes very tricky if the support stops at that point.

Rwy'n meddwl bod Jane eisiau dod mewn. Jane.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn cwestiwn am Medr os gwelwch yn dda, a jest gofyn i'r ddwy ohonoch chi, os yw hynny'n iawn, Cadeirydd.

Yes.

Jest i ofyn am Medr a'ch profiad chi, beth dŷch chi'n meddwl bydd o'n gallu cwblhau yn y maes yma. Beth fydd yr arfer gorau yn eich barn chi? Diolch.

Do you want me to start, Chair?

Fine, yes. Well, I assume that the line won't go down. Lisa.

Thank you ever so much. I think, inevitably, it's early days, because Medr obviously started this new phase from 1 August. I know it was slightly delayed from 1 March. What we have been doing, though, is collectively—colleges and apprenticeship providers—having regular meetings with the team at Medr over the last couple of weeks, as they step through this process now and get to grips, really, with their role, really, with all the post-16 education that comes under them. They are going through, as I said, that strategic consultation phase. I think that has to be presented for ministerial decision by 16 December, so it's really important that all of us as providers take part in that. And I think they do, really, have a duty in supporting us, across all of those platforms really, for some of the challenges, barriers, and best practice, as Viv has mentioned as well, and that we also have within the apprenticeship network, to really pull that together and drive policy forward for Medr. That is vitally important. I know that there will be an element of discussion around funding, and, as I said, we have this £2,000 employment incentive scheme, and Medr have just confirmed that that is still going ahead until March 2025. So, we have had that continued support from them, as they've transitioned over now and started the new commission, but it's vital that those discussions continue moving forward, and any help would be welcomed.

Okay. Vivienne, do you want to add anything on that?

Just really to add that, I guess, the real hope is that what will come as part of Medr is that there will be far less duplication in the system. So, having everything in one place and having work-based learning and school sixth-form settings, all post-16, in one place, hopefully, will mean that we can have more dedicated views of progression routes, and the real hope there that data being put through one channel may mean that that's more consistent and may mean that we're able to access those things easier. So, that's the real hope of what it will drive forward. Of course, you still haven't got the link necessarily in from pre-16 to post-16, which is one of the really difficult areas with some of the young people we're talking about here, I think. I guess that's the challenge of how do we make sure that communication stays strong where it is strong and improves where it needs to.

Back to you, Sioned.

Diolch yn fawr. Ie, yn hollol, mae Cymdeithas Syndrom Down wedi cysylltu â ni ac wedi dweud y dylai ysgolion a cholegau siarad gyda myfyrwyr, efallai yn meddwl am opsiynau gyrfa, ac wrth gwrs prentisiaethau a chyrsiau coleg, cyn gynted ag y medran nhw, ac yn sicr ddim yn hwyrach na 14 oed. Felly, ydych chi’n cytuno bod angen hyn? Rydych chi wedi arwyddo bod angen mwy o gysylltu rhwng y sector cyn ac ôl 16. Sut ydych chi’n meddwl gallai hynny ddigwydd?

I think, absolutely, it’s what’s needed. I think as a broader point, not just for students with disabilities, but as a broader point, the earlier we can have interventions with people in school, you open their eyes to the broader possibilities, don’t you? Especially for some of the people we’re talking about, the young people here, vocational education, as an example, would be a real option for them, and things with a bit more of an employability focus rather than an academic focus.

I know Lisa may want to talk about it, but certainly one of the issues with apprenticeships is you could have somebody with a disability who’s able to do the job, but actually hitting that apprenticeship framework in terms of the theoretical qualifications that are there may be difficult. So, it’s about broadening our view as well. But, yes, I absolutely agree that the sooner we can speak to students and let them know what apprenticeships really are, the sooner we can speak to students and let them know about what the different possibilities are once they reach 16 and beyond, I think that can only be beneficial.

The last thing I would say on that as well is we often focus on speaking to the learner before they’re 14; it’s the parents and carers of those learners that are really, really important as well. Because a lot of the barriers we see is a misunderstanding sometimes from the people at home, of not really understanding anything other than the school system and really being quite nervous about apprenticeships and not really understanding how they could work, especially for young people who are going to need further support when they’re in those arenas.

Okay. I wanted to come in as well, but I’ll defer to you.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. It was just a quick question touching upon what Sioned was asking there then. One of the things that interests me is careers advice in school and also the quality of careers advice that’s being dished out, I suppose. I wanted to get your views on that in terms of how it’s then effective in terms of helping those with disabilities, not necessary to identify apprenticeship courses but then the career paths that are there afterwards, and to support those who might say, ‘I want to become an accountant’, or, ‘I want to become a teacher’, and how that works. Because when I think back to when I was in school, careers advice wasn’t that great. I don’t know what it’s like now. I’m just wondering what it is for those with a disability. Thank you.

I'll come in and start there. I think, inevitably, what’s helped us over more recent times, and I see that helping us in the future, is the new curriculum within schools. Within that, you have what we call the CRWEs—I think I have it right—career-related work experiences. So, there’s an element now within the curriculum where the school has to engage with providers, whether that’s college, apprenticeship providers, employers, et cetera, to provide these real career-related work experiences, even at primary level. So, at primary level, we’re trying to enthuse young people to understand what the world of work is, and all of these wonderful opportunities available to them post-16, and that includes disabled learners.

Again, reiterating what Viv said as well, it’s making sure that that is available across all schools in all authorities, and making sure that those specialists are invited in. So, there has to be a relationship with the school, hence the relationship pre-16 to post-16 with the organisations who are responsible as well. But we certainly see that moving forward in a positive manner, because we also have the community-focused schools initiatives as well in Wales, so there are far more stakeholders getting involved. And of course, then, Careers Wales sit on the regional skills partnerships. Regional skills partnerships are engaging far better as well to make sure that these career opportunities are discussed and available, and using employer support as well as our colleagues in colleges, and ensuring that there’s equality and opportunity for all. So, for those learners who are disabled, there is a plethora of opportunity for them because we are finding that we can adjust. With regard to some of the theoretical side that they've mentioned, with regard to apprenticeship frameworks, we are talking to Qualifications Wales, we are talking to the awarding organisations, to make some reasonable adjustments for learners as well.

The new curriculum is still in its infancy, but have you noticed any perceptible difference in the attitudes of schools now that there's more emphasis on the value added to the individual rather than the numbers who are going to get five GCSEs including English and maths?

I think, as you said, Chair, it's early days, but certainly there are some positive vibes out there that we are seeing. I think this is where we struggled previously. Our teaching workforce, with all due respect to them, were concentrating on the academic routes for those post 16, whereas, as I just said, the opportunities for vocational learning and apprenticeships, whether that's with a provider or a college, have widened so much over the last couple of years, and go into so many industries and routes as well, that we are now seeing their ears pricked up and them understanding it more. I think the new curriculum will certainly help us, but it's in its infancy.

Did you want to comment on that, Vivienne? And then I'll pass it back to Sioned.

Yes, please. I guess I would just add again my phrase earlier of ‘postcode lottery’. It's very different depending on the kind of local authority you're in. In examples like Merthyr, where there's already a tertiary model, there seems to be much more ability to actually access schools, because there isn't any competitive element that's introduced there.

Just to go back a step in terms of careers advice and guidance, I think it is difficult, but I also think, to be fair to a careers adviser, there is only so much information you can have. We are seeing really positive moves happen around the new curriculum, which I think is inspiring this change. There are more joined-up activity sessions, where children as young as primary school children are actually coming into colleges, or they're wanting to know more about apprenticeships. I think there's got to be that experiential element to careers advice and guidance, not just your one-to-one conversation with one person who can only possibly know so much. So, I think there is something moving forward that will really help there.

And a last point around the new curriculum: I think it’s really interesting, the introduction of the new VCSEs alongside that GCSE suite of qualifications. I think that will help inspire change and I think that will make us see a difference as well.

Thank you. Back to you, Sioned.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Jest un cwestiwn olaf. I ba raddau, yn eich profiad chi, ydy myfyrwyr anabl yn gadael addysg gyda'r sgiliau digonol i fynd trwy'r broses recriwtio gydag ymwybyddiaeth o'u hawliau yn y gweithle, er enghraifft gofyn am addasiadau rhesymol?

Shall I come in? Sorry—I was looking at the screen to see. Thank you for that. Inevitably, it depends again on the school and what support they actually bring in. Careers Wales do support them with that, I have to say. But also, with the supported apprenticeship programme, we have people like Elite Training, et cetera, and they specialise in that. So, they actually help them with career advice and guidance. They help them with job applications, et cetera, to help them with progressing into that. And they also help provide work experience as well. So, that has been really useful. And hopefully that funding will continue moving forward, because it certainly has a positive impact, especially when we're working with our schools where they need that additional support. I know Elite have gone in and provided that, as well as other providers, and it has been really welcomed, but that's because it's specific, and it's specialist support to help them fill out all of those applications, but also do their own CVs as well to gain that work experience as a first step.

Vivienne, did you want to add anything?

Yes, please. We have specific programmes within the post-16 sector for our independent living students, and the Pathway 3 programme is really interesting there as well, which would be a programme that would actually happen within a college setting. An example I can give again from Bridgend College is we run Clwb Coffi, which is a coffee shop that is run entirely by students from our ILS department, again, with a job coach, with somebody who can help them. We can bring employers into that environment and we can really help to move them forward, many of them then able to progress on to a supported internship in a bigger environment out there in employment, and from there, hopefully on to work. So again, there are some really great examples of bespoke provision that is really trying to provide those employability skills, and not just the academic and practical skills that need to go along.

The other thing I would say is that the employability bureaux have been really interesting in colleges. We all have our own employability bureaux that help students make that transition out of college and into meaningful employment. There are colleges with examples of specific and bespoke events for students with disabilities, which have given them access, really early on in their journey, before they're thinking about where they're moving on to once they've completed programmes, really working with employers that are open to working with students with disabilities, but also really focusing on how they can actually write those application forms and how they can develop those interview skills as well.

Diolch. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. Just a couple of quick questions, if I may. Earlier on, you mentioned there, Vivienne, voluntary work placements and supported internships. I know that the evidence and the consultation responses we've received are pointing to a lack of voluntary work placement opportunities, and then also an overemphasis on placements in specific sectors, like the hospitality sector. I'm conscious you mentioned just then the coffee shop environment that you've got there. I just wanted to know whether that's something that you recognise is happening.

It's absolutely something we recognise, yes, in terms of trying to find placements for supported interns, or, indeed, for just work placements for other learners with disabilities as well—I would recognise it. I guess the issue comes around funding, because when you're looking at the funding for something like a supported internship programme, really, you need to have an employer that is large enough to take quite a few students on a programme like that, and also that have got real jobs at the end of the programme. And it very quickly becomes a saturated market. You do an awful lot of work with an employer to get those placements, and, once you've had one cohort go through, there's not necessarily those real jobs at the end of it, so you're looking for another employer straight away. Lots of those larger employers tend to be health boards, councils or large hotel chains.

There is absolutely a need for us to be able to have access to more employers, and it's how we can actually access those smaller employers, and maybe some more of our SME employers, to encourage them to actually take part. Volunteering would be a really good step forward in that. But I think, absolutely, you're right, there are barriers; I guess there's a lot of paperwork involved, but I think, more, it's to do with funding when you have placements with people who need that support—it's where the funding is coming from. I think one of the things there, when you think about the £2,000 that was mentioned earlier, is that it can be an incentive for employers, but that tends to be if people are in employed work. If there was a way of actually incentivising employers to take volunteer placements, with the hope of employed work at the end of it, I think you might see more people coming forward.

Thank you for that. I suppose there are another couple of questions I wouldn't mind asking. One of the concerns that's been raised is the disparities that are out there in terms of support for those with disabilities when you break it down to the individual in terms of geographical location, in terms of those who may be younger or older, and even those with specific disabilities, like neurodivergence, and maybe hearing difficulties, or who may be registered blind. I just wanted to know what you think can be done to try and improve that situation, in the sense of making sure everyone's captured in this and maybe not just those disabilities that are easier to address, if that makes sense.

I'll come in there first of all. There are regional differences because there are regional variations with regard to the data that's captured. In order to drive the additional support that's needed, whether that's encouraging employers or parents, carers, et cetera, schools, to understand how we can support a disabled person into the world of employment, into the world of education, the data has to be right. That's just one important point, because I think this is where Medr comes in, and perhaps where they will then govern that, if you like, and will have one way of capturing data, because it is so varied at the moment. I also think there needs to be a strategic lead for that. With Welsh Government colleagues previously, we did have an equality, diversity and disability strategic lead, and we're missing that from a provider perspective, because that would help really bring all of these stakeholders together, working with employers to encourage them, and offer that additional support.

With regard to what learners additionally need, it's usually upon ourselves, the colleges or the providers to go out there and try and access that ourselves. So, yes, we use Disability Wales for advice and guidance, but, for instance, I've also used Merthyr Tydfil Institute for the Blind to help us with people with visual impairment, to understand what additional adjustments are needed for a person. They've been very supportive in helping us, but that's because we've gone out there and sourced it ourselves. So it would be good to have a strategic lead in those areas.

Perfect. Thank you. It's interesting you mentioned Medr then, because we had the Equality and Human Rights Commission just before yourselves, and they've mentioned that Medr and the Welsh Government should address, and I'll quote now,

'the under-representation of disabled people participating in and completing apprenticeships.'

So, you definitely think Medr should be taking the lead here.

Yes. Apologies—I mentioned policy earlier, but more, perhaps, from a strategic angle, so a strategic plan. As apprenticeship providers, we all had to provide our own disability action plans as part of our annual self-assessment, and so I think they need to take that forward and make sure that providers do the strategic action plans, but then they're a mechanism for support and driving that forward, with Government then setting the policy direction. And, as I said, data is a big one as well, so we can make sure that we can analyse and share that then together, to bring about improvement.

Perfect. Thank you. I've got nothing else.

Very good. We'll move on to Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. You've covered a little bit of what I want to ask about, but just to perhaps expand on it, to go with the issue of data and monitoring. It's the extent to which education providers collect data. Clearly, from all the evidence you've been giving, there's an enormous amount of data that is collated, but what is the format of that data? How accessible is it? How can it be improved upon, how can it be used? To what extent do we, I suppose, have an understanding then about those moving out of education and into employment? Perhaps if you could just clarify where we are with the data and the availability of that data.

From an apprenticeship provider perspective, we have lifelong learning Wales record data. As soon as a learner is recruited, we record everything and we track that from enrolment through to completion rates and transitions into employment. But, as I said, there are differences, depending on the post-16 provider and the pre-16 provider on that data collection, and I think that's what we need to actually change. We also record, obviously, the level of disability that's disclosed to us. It's important to note that a new learner, a new apprentice, has to be comfortable, and we have to give them support in order to disclose their disability as well, because it's not always physical and visual; there are other disabilities there that are sometimes not actually seen. So, it's about giving that encouragement. But we do collect that data, that is shared with the Welsh Government through the LLWR process. But there are differences between providers, and what I mean by that is apprenticeship providers, how FE collect the data and how schools share the data of those young people leaving education, and when you consider the NEETs data and things like that as well. I think something needs to be done to bring that together.

One of the big issues with data that is available is that it comes in different formats and there's no systematic or common system in terms of that, which means that the evaluation of that data is quite often very difficult to understand, and its use and accessibility is quite limited. So, would you just confirm that one of the things that you would want to see is, perhaps, a more common mechanism for the actual recording of data and then the accessibility of that? Perhaps you could just confirm that.

And then the other point, of course, once you have that data, is the subsequent monitoring and the following on of that use of data, and the information that comes in terms of the progress of individuals as they proceed into employment and so on. Is there a follow-through in terms of data and monitoring, or is that another one of those gaps that you would identify?

I think Viv wants to come in, so I'll let Viv come in there and perhaps I'll add, if need be.

Thank you. There is—and again, we use LLWR, but I think we report on slightly different things—a way of bringing all those things together. But I think you're absolutely right. We do have information that comes to us via our consistent performance measures from the Welsh Government, but the destination report data tend to take quite a while to come through, so you're getting information from students that left, potentially, two years previously. So, there's something around the accessibility of that data, but also the timeliness of how we're able to pull that data through as well.

I also think there's something around the different formats within data that people are collecting, and using those big, broad umbrella terms like 'disabilities'. It's very difficult then to drill down any further into exactly what people mean by that. And to reiterate a point I made earlier, there's also something around the self-disclosure, and I think we've already touched on, obviously, the different spectrum of disabilities, when you have people, maybe, with a visible disability, but if you've got somebody who's actually got to evidence that they've got that disability or somebody who's actually got to come forward and prove that what they've said in that box is right, that can be a really difficult scenario for people, but also can be quite a difficult thing to do. So, I think the nature of the data we capture, so that we can follow different streams through, as well would be really important.

Thank you.

Very good. Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi jest eisiau gorffen drwy ofyn i chi, os gwelwch chi'n dda, am arfer gorau. Hynny yw, yn eich barn chi, beth fydd yn gweithio dros Gymru neu y Deyrnas Unedig? A, jest yn gyntaf, oes gennych chi ryw farn neu brofiad o un peth neu arfer gorau dros y Deyrnas Unedig sy'n gweithio yn y maes yma, os gwelwch chi'n dda—neu fwy os oes gennych chi fwy nag un? Lisa yn gyntaf, efallai.

Yes, thank you. I think one that is a UK-wide initiative is the Disability Confident scheme, and I think that certainly does help to encourage employers to take on disabled learners, disabled apprentices, et cetera. So, that's a UK-wide based initiative.

As far as best practice is concerned, I think we use that, definitely, and also we have numerous case studies and success stories that we love to share as well, which, again, then gives encouragement to not only employers, but also young people to come on and do an apprenticeship as well. So, we share those case studies. We share them through newsletters, et cetera, but we also have the annual apprenticeship awards as well, which are Welsh Government awards, and those really do recognise where learners have gone through an apprenticeship programme and achieved that, despite barriers that they have, whether they are a neurodiverse disability or a physical disability, and they are the most heartwarming, best-practice case studies that you can actually read and meet the learners about. And that does encourage people, because taking on a learner to an apprenticeship programme is fantastic anyway—it helps with skills growth, et cetera, and helps with all these wonderful economy things. But taking on and taking a disabled learner through an apprenticeship programme, honestly, is one of the most rewarding things that an employer can do, because it really does help with staff morale as well. It helps within their own employer environment. That's what we've been told from employers themselves. So, it's their voice that's important, as well as the young person's, and it gives parents that encouragement that, 'Actually, my child can go on and go into the world of work and undertake an apprenticeship programme', because they will be supported throughout that as well with pastoral support, et cetera.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Viv, oes gennych chi rywbeth i'w ddweud ar hyn?

Yes, please. So, I completely agree with what Lisa's just said there about the Disability Confident scheme. I think they’re supported internships, and it's just great news that they are now happening in every college across Wales. I think that's a real area of best practice that proves it can work with the right support in place.

I also think, just thinking aloud, really, when I was listening to Lisa talk there, that, actually, training providers and colleges are really good employers as well, and I certainly know of lots of colleges—and we would be an example of that—where, almost, you've got to walk the walk. We're spending a lot of time talking to employers about how they can employ students with a disability, and then actually looking at our own organisation and going, 'But hang on a minute, where are we doing that?'—so, actually, then developing guaranteed-interview schemes, making sure that recruiting managers have had that training, and there really is something then, when people come in to talk to us about whether they would be able to take a placement or would be able to offer a job opportunity, in being able to actually look around this organisation and going, 'Oh, you do it, and it is really working.'

And just to echo what Lisa said, the anecdotal stuff that you get from all places that have got supported internships—and I can certainly talk from my own organisation as well—does make your organisation richer. It does make it a better organisation to work in, and I think the more we can get those case studies out there, the more people will hop on board.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Roedden ni'n cael sgwrs fer gynt yn sôn am yr agwedd a’r diwylliant ynglŷn â phobl efo anabledd. Oes gennych chi ryw farn ar beth sy’n digwydd yma yng Nghymru ynglŷn â’r dull tuag at bobl ifanc sydd ag anabledd, os gwelwch chi'n dda? Dwi ddim yn gwybod pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf.

I don't have—

I'm happy to—

Go on, Viv.

Yes, I'm happy to start. Just, again, and this is anecdotal, but when we were talking to other colleges who were helping me to frame some of my thoughts before meeting you today, absolutely the feeling out there is employers want to do this. It is absolutely the feeling that that has moved, the dial is starting to shift there, where lots of employers are saying, 'We really want to, but it comes down to funding and how we can actually support those placements, moving forward.' So, I think attitudes are certainly changing. I think it would be fair to say that is the case, but we've now got to put the infrastructure in place that actually means people can do that and move forward with it as well. But I think attitudes are changing.

The other thing that we really need to look at is, sometimes, like I've already said, the people who are actually at home with those young people that they have had to protect for so long or they have had to fight for so long are quite scared of the employability world. They are happy for that young person to stay in an education setting, so there's more work to do there as well to really hold people's hands and say, 'Employment is a good thing in this instance, and, actually, it will help to keep moving development forward.'

Just very briefly to add to that, I know the construction and IT industries in Wales have adopted specific strategies to accommodate disabled apprentices. Also, one of the greatest cultures that we have is within the creative industries, I have to say, and that's such a growth area for Wales as well. We've had a lot of autistic learners, autistic apprentices actually going into the world of gaming and coding, because they are the experts in that field as well, so that is something to share, that these opportunities are out there for everybody. So, that has been a really great area to work in. They seem to have got the culture just right. So, we've got lots of young actors and actresses in the field, but there's gaming and coding, and I know, again, our colleges have actually done suites of coding areas, haven't they, and apprenticeship providers are doing alike as well.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd.

I suppose, finally, I just want to ask you what's the No. 1 ask for reducing the disability employment gap, particularly in the regional places where the gap is highest, like Blaenau Gwent and Neath Port Talbot. How do we ensure that every disabled person has as much opportunity as in other areas where it's less?

For me, it's about that communication, especially that transition from school into the world of work with apprenticeship providers or into FE. As we said, it's better than it was. I think I would agree with our colleague over here as to the careers advice I had when I was in school. I think that is better—it's getting there, it's certainly developing. Working with the regional skills partnerships as well in order to encourage that will reduce the gap, but I think, more than anything, it's about the Government actually sharing some of these great experiences. There is nothing better than seeing it in the real-life experience of a young disabled person and the experience they've had, whether on an apprenticeship programme, whether they're in college and FE, et cetera. I think that is the best way to bring about reducing that gap, definitely, from the young person themselves, and I know that Viv would agree. We can certainly help with sharing that—we do now, but I think more could be done with the Welsh Government and also with our Medr colleagues as we move forward and market those opportunities as well and those success stories.

Okay. Is there anything further you wanted to add, Vivienne?

For me, I'd completely 100 per cent agree, and that would be my No. 1 priority, but I then think it is about supporting and funding transition. We do it so well from school to college, we do it well from college to apprenticeships, and then we don't do it very well when completing that into employment. So, I think it's supporting and funding transition.

Thank you very much indeed for that. Thank you very much indeed for your evidence. It's really useful and very positive to hear that so many good things are happening. We'll send you a transcript, about which, if we've recorded anything wrong, you need to let us know and we'll amend it.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for your time today.

Thank you. Thanks, all.

Thank you very much.

So, under Standing Order 17.42, can we agree to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting? I see no disagreement.