Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee

Item 3, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered. The Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas (Procedure and Interest Rate) (Wales) Regulations 2024: the committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 30 September and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government's response to the report, which has since been received. Kate, do you have anything to raise in relation to the Welsh Government's response?

Yes, thank you. The committee's report identified eight technical reporting points, all of which related to problems with the drafting. In response, the Welsh Government accepts these points but does not propose to make any corrections, with the exception of addressing one point by correction slip. So, Members may just wish to note that this is not an entirely satisfactory response. And if I could specifically draw your attention to three issues with the responses. Reporting point 4 identified a problem with the text in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2. The Welsh Government accepts the point raised, but says that confusion can be addressed in practice. So, the committee may just wish to remind the Welsh Government that it is the legislation that sets out the law and it's generally not appropriate for problems in legislation to be left to be resolved in practice.

Reporting point 5 identified an issue with the definition of 'concurrent application', which has been defined for the purposes of regulation 8, but the term is also used in regulation 6. The Welsh Government, again, accepts this point but considers that it would be clear in context that the term is intended to have the same meaning in both regulations. The committee's legal advisers would disagree on that point. If a term is defined for the purposes of a single regulation, then it will suggest to the reader and to any court looking to interpret this legislation that, if the same term is used in a different regulation, then it's intended to have a different meaning.

And finally, reporting point 6 noted that the location of an amendment made by the regulations to other regulations was unclear. The Welsh Government accepts this point, but suggests that the effect would be sufficiently clear. Again, we would disagree with that. In our view, there's a clear risk of confusion here, not least because if the amendment applies as the Welsh Government says it does, there will be two paragraphs 4 in the amended regulation, which is bound to cause confusion. So, in light of these three particular issues, the committee may wish to just write to the Welsh Government to note these points and ask why the Welsh Government doesn't think amendments are needed, given that there's a clear risk of confusion here.

Thank you, Kate. Do Members have any comments or questions? No. Are we happy to—?

Sorry, Chair, I'd just like to ask a quick question, if that's okay. In relation to this one, out of everything I've read so far, there seem to be a lot of defective elements in this particular area. So, I just wanted to know, for my own personal knowledge, who exactly is responsible for writing this particular document, purely because we read a lot of things, a lot of Bills come out, a lot of areas of interest. However, I just wanted to know—obviously it's Welsh Government led—is it predominantly civil servants who are writing this, causing the defective issues that we're seeing again and again, particularly in the Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas (Procedure and Interest Rate) (Wales) Regulations 2024?

The regulations will have been drafted within the Welsh Government, but they will have been then approved by the Welsh Ministers. So, the Welsh Ministers are responsible for the document, because they lay it before the Senedd. But it will have gone through a process within the Welsh Government of being drafted and then prepared. So, when there are defective points, that's obviously not ideal.

Understood. Then, Chair, in that case, can we please write, as Kate just stated, and please ask for greater clarification and just ease when it comes to the reading and interpretation of the documents that they are putting together, because—it's difficult enough and there are so many issues now—if, let's say, a third party person who has got nothing to do with Welsh politics reads it, it's going to be very, very difficult for them to keep up? If we're struggling, they're going to have even more issues.

I think you're absolutely right there, Natasha. Kate, is there anything you want to add? I'll take that to be a 'no'. Okay. Are we happy to carry out the suggestions of Natasha and Kate? Yes.

Item 4, notification of correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. This is a standing item on our agenda, however there's nothing to consider under this item today.

Item 5, papers to note. Under general correspondence to note are papers 9 and 10. We have correspondence with the Secretary of State for Wales and UK Government Ministers for inter-governmental relations, inviting them to appear before committee to discuss inter-governmental relations to inform our scrutiny of how Governments within the UK work. We also have correspondence with the First Minister of Wales, inviting her to appear before the committee to discuss areas within the committee's remit that she has strategic responsibility for, including inter-governmental relations, Wales in Europe and the legislative programme. Are Members content to note these? Yes.

Item 6 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Do Members agree? We'll now move into private session.